one-light's into Media Composer

[JDM]

So I did my first ever RED test today on a newly updated Media Composer 3.05. and I have a few questions/issues (surprise surprise).

I went through REDrushes. Tried to use the Avid step by step guide, which worked for the most part and I was able to render out self contained DNxHD quicktimes no problem.

Now, the guide says to make QT wrappers. I tried this, exactly as outlined, and nothing showed up in the target folder. I don't think it's a fatal problem since I was able to get the self contained movies into Avid, though it was a long process. A long transcode out of REDrushes and an equally as long MXF creation into Avid.

Would one of these long transcodes be wiped out if I was able to get the wrappers out of REDrushes? If so, what could be causing this function to flat out not work?

The more pressing issue for me however, since I was able to get the files in with the ALE effectively, is how to get my one-light look set in RED Alert and into REDrushes?

My understanding is that the 'look' created in RED Alert is only applied to the QT wrappers and not the .r3d's, but since I wasn't able to create DNxHD wrappers, I had to transcode the source .r3d files out of REDrushes.

How do I go about getting a look set so that the VFX artist has a proper look to go by into MC? Does this happen before or after REDrushes?

I'm pretty confused on this step and I would really like to able to edit files that have already gone through a one-light since we are planning to use a straight from Avid DVD export to raise money for the final conform, grade and finish.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious...

[Jonas Rejman]

From my tests I can share the following:

I had the same empty output folder problem in redrushes. It went away, when I eliminated all spaces in the filepaths. So no "my project/redfiles" but "myproject/redfiles".

From my understanding, AVID is working on speeding up the import into MC, when you already transcoded to DNxHD via Redrushes. It should become a "copy" operation, but it is not possible at this moment.

When you import QT Wrappers via ALE as in the AVID manual, so that MC "transcodes" only 1x, the looks you may have created with redalert are not passed, rather the general REDspace look.

In order to get the looks, you need to go through the DNxHD redrushes route, you just described, and do a "double" transcode (r3d->redrushesDNxHD->MC), as it seems that only that way, the looks are baked into the DNxHD files.

If you want to apply the look to several files, you can do that in redrushes, but selecting a specific RSX (look file) for more than one file. It might be quite painsome, if you want to onelight quickly more files like that, because you either have to do it file-by file in redalert, or segment your footage and apply the specific looks in redrushes in separate renders to DNxHD.

RED has only QT wrappers, there are no DNxHD wrappers. Redalerts creates a RSX file, when you open a r3d file. When you update the look of the QT wrappers in recreating them with the "make Quicktimes" command, Quicktime is able to apply the look to the data it pulls in a quick-and-dirty debayer from the r3d files.
The creation of DNxHD files is a full transcode however with full choise of the debayer quality, creating independent mediafiles without a connection to the original r3d files with the looks baked in.

I tend to create 2-3 looks in redalert. Then apply those to the appropriate files via redrushes and create QT wrappers, before going to FCP editorial. This works for small projects with 30 cuts.


There is no way to apply the look you want after you got to DNxHD via redalert, without another transcode with the desired look created in MC.

[MichaelP]

Just to be clear - it is not a double transcode into Media Composer if you use the data rate of the original file. In the case of REDrushes, it only creates 175x for 24fps sources (23.976 too). If you import that as 175x it does not to an additional transcode - it is slower than expected for other reasons we are fixing but it is not decoding and re-encoding. The fast import is being fixed for an upcoming release. The abilty to create data rates other than 175x in RED's tools is up to the RED team to implement.

If you choose any other resolution other than 175x, then it is transcoding.

Michael

[Max Burgess]

hmm..

I am running version 3.05 but on import my MXF options are 36, 120, 185 & 185 X. I don't have an option for 175 X. I was importing qts the other day at 185 and it was taking ages.

Also what does the X stand for. Is there a page at Avid that clearly describes all the different DNxHD compressions?

Thanks

Max

[Jörgen Persson]

hmm..

I am running version 3.05 but on import my MXF options are 36, 120, 185 & 185 X. I don't have an option for 175 X. I was importing qts the other day at 185 and it was taking ages.

Also what does the X stand for. Is there a page at Avid that clearly describes all the different DNxHD compressions?

Thanks

Max

The X is 10bit the rest is 8 bit.

The different codecs for 24 fps is

Offline HD (36)
High quality 8 bit (115)
Highest quality 8 bit (175)
Highest quality 10 bit (175X)


The different numbers within a category is because of framerates. 24 fps has a lower bitrate than 30 fps.

Your example shows that you're in a 1920x1080 25p project with the DNxHD flavors 36, 120, 185 and 185x.

Take a look here for more answers (at page 9)
http://www.avid.com/resources/whitepapers/dnxhd.pdf

[MichaelP]

Correct. Thanks Rebus. Being in the US and always working in 23.976 or 24 my data rate vernacular is stuck at 175x.

Michael

[Michael Lindsay]

... The abilty to create data rates other than 175x in RED's tools is up to the RED team to implement.

This is 'very' important to avid users!! Has Red acknowledged this is something they should do?

regards

Michael Lindsay

PS I also wish 25fps 185 out of red tools would NOT be tagged interlaced..

[Dexter Gregoire]

So I did my first ever RED test today on a newly updated Media Composer 3.05. and I have a few questions/issues (surprise surprise).

The more pressing issue for me however, since I was able to get the files in with the ALE effectively, is how to get my one-light look set in RED Alert and into REDrushes?

How do I go about getting a look set so that the VFX artist has a proper look to go by into MC? Does this happen before or after REDrushes?

I'm pretty confused on this step and I would really like to able to edit files that have already gone through a one-light since we are planning to use a straight from Avid DVD export to raise money for the final conform, grade and finish.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious...


Is it possible to pass the one- light's info into Media Composer?

Does anyone know of the way?

[JDM]

Is it possible to pass the one- light's info into Media Composer?

Does anyone know of the way?

My understanding is that you have to burn in the one-light into the DNxHD on your first transcode out of rushes or REDCINE in order to get the look in MC. There is no way to get just the .rsx info into MC on it's own. One glaring advantage FCP has is this issue... tho it isn't really a hugely important thing. When do you ever need to change the look across the board during an offline?

Since this thread has been bumped up again, just to clarify with you guys, I can apply the .rsx created in REDAlert! in REDrushes for my transcode to DNxHD 175x yes? Can I still batch export the list if we only use one .rsx? How about if we have a few different .rsx files for different files? Will we have to manually do those one by one?

Getting very nervous/excited, shoot starts tomorrow for this project... finally get to start putting all this info you have all given me to real practice!

[Paul Rosckes]

My understanding is that you have to burn in the one-light into the DNxHD on your first transcode out of rushes or REDCINE in order to get the look in MC. There is no way to get just the .rsx info into MC on it's own. One glaring advantage FCP has is this issue... tho it isn't really a hugely important thing. When do you ever need to change the look across the board during an offline?

Since this thread has been bumped up again, just to clarify with you guys, I can apply the .rsx created in REDAlert! in REDrushes for my transcode to DNxHD 175x yes? Can I still batch export the list if we only use one .rsx? How about if we have a few different .rsx files for different files? Will we have to manually do those one by one?

In my testing, the only part of the .RSX "look" that isn't perserved in the QT proxy is the "Curve" data. Everything else comes across. And I believe that what you see in the QT proxy is what you'll get when you import into the Avid. Also, you can significantly optimize the import times by selecting a lower quality debayer, and by creating a QT proxy size that is just one size larger than your offline resolution. For example, 2K proxies are fine for an HD offline, and 1K proxies are fine for an SD offline. BTW, I wish that REDAlert would define FIXED target sizes for proxies instead of using the "_Full, _High, _Med" method. Because if you have a mix of 4K and 2K material, then you have to treat them differently in order to end up with all 2K proxies.

Hopefully, REDRushes will be updated to allow all flavors of DNxHD. Also, we had to offline a couple of projects in NTSC, and REDRushes couldn't do a 23.98 to 29.97 conversion to either the media or the ALE. So for those jobs we had to use Metacheater and do a direct import in Avid from the QT proxies to properly convert the footage. Everything worked perfectly, and we simply had to convert the Avid EDL from 29.97 back to 23.98 for the online.

-Paul

[filip kovcin]

... BTW, I wish that REDAlert would define FIXED target sizes for proxies instead of using the "_Full, _High, _Med" method. Because if you have a mix of 4K and 2K material, then you have to treat them differently in order to end up with all 2K proxies....

Paul,

that's exactly what i am thinking of. i had a situation where both 4k and 2k were mixed and had kind of nightmare to properly import it (to have one size in timeline).

typical _F, _H, _M and _P convention is meaningless. you will never know by reading the name was this 2K, 3K or 4K...


i think that _F2, _F3 or _F4 or _H2, _H3 and _H4 are easily recognizable - where 2,3 or 4 stands for 2K, 3K and 4K respectively of course.

for other and future resolution/sizes something similar can be "invented"
like: _Fa - for anamorphic; _Fh for 4K HD etc.

maybe this is just good for a new thread? what do you think?

filip

[MichaelP]

If working in SD, why not work in NTSC 23.976 - no need for EDL conversion as the proper 24fps timecode would be tracked in the TC24 column. Getting the values in TC24 is done by highlighting the START and doing a command-D or control-D and selecting TC 24 from the pop up dialog box. The proper conversion to 24 based on pulldown relationship is done during the copy. All EDL's would be generated from there and selecting TC24 as the source in EDL Manager.

Michael

[Paul Rosckes]

If working in SD, why not work in NTSC 23.976 - no need for EDL conversion as the proper 24fps timecode would be tracked in the TC24 column. Getting the values in TC24 is done by highlighting the START and doing a command-D or control-D and selecting TC 24 from the pop up dialog box. The proper conversion to 24 based on pulldown relationship is done during the copy. All EDL's would be generated from there and selecting TC24 as the source in EDL Manager.

Michael

In that particular case we were mixing new RED footage with a lot of old film and video elements which already existed at 29.97. So it was a lot easier to convert the relatively small amount of new material to fit with the massive amount of existing material. :)

-Paul

[MichaelP]

That makes sense - but the QT sources have 24 frames for every second - did the import do a 4+1 type import to make 30?

Michael

[Paul Rosckes]

That makes sense - but the QT sources have 24 frames for every second - did the import do a 4+1 type import to make 30?

Michael

Yes, that's correct. Not the ideal solution, but good enough for a rough cut. It would be better if Avid could apply a traditional 3:2 pulldown on import for smoother playback. Hopefully, all future RED jobs will be cut at the native framerate. It just makes the whole process smoother when everyone is working at 23.98.

-Paul

[Kjetil Haugen]

How long does it take to import about an hour of QT refs into MC for offline as of now (current Avid release)? After import, avid creates DNxHD36 files and the QT refs are no longer of use, right? The ALE and QT refs are only used for import and from there on, Avid has full control?
I've never worked on Avid so excuse my stupid questions...

[Paul Rosckes]

How long does it take to import about an hour of QT refs into MC for offline as of now (current Avid release)? After import, avid creates DNxHD36 files and the QT refs are no longer of use, right? The ALE and QT refs are only used for import and from there on, Avid has full control?
I've never worked on Avid so excuse my stupid questions...

In my tests it took about 3 hours to import 1 hour of QT proxies. And that was going from 1K to 10:1 MXF NTSC. Of course, times will vary based on processor speed, disk array speed, network speed, codec, source resolution, etc.

And once you have all the footage into the Avid with its original timecode via the ALE from REDRushes or Metacheater, then you will no longer need the QT proxies. But it's a good idea to keep them around because they don't take up any disk space, and they can be a useful reference if someone needs to view the original source footage with timecode.

-Paul

[MichaelP]

I have found that on a dual quad MacIntel, it is about 5-6 times longer than original duration. Using MPEG Streamclip, on the same dual quad with fast drives some users have seen 2:1 when creating DNxHD 36. Importing the DNxHD36 is another 1:1 after that for a total of 3:1.

Avid has full control as you say once imported - while they can be disposed of, a deletion by mistake of the Avid MediaFile would required you to start from the original R3D to QT ref to DnxHD 36 and batch import the clip again.

Michael

[Alex Carr]

Is it at all possible to export DNx codecs at different quality settings from RedRushes?

If I can import the _H proxies into AvidMC with new Proxies made in RedAlert that would be nearly the same correct?

And what would Crimson or Scratch have a better time with from Avid? EDL or XML?

[Kjetil Haugen]

Much appreciated, prosckes and MichaelP! Helped alot.

[Michael.B]

Just to be clear - it is not a double transcode into Media Composer if you use the data rate of the original file. In the case of REDrushes, it only creates 175x for 24fps sources (23.976 too). If you import that as 175x it does not to an additional transcode - it is slower than expected for other reasons we are fixing but it is not decoding and re-encoding. The fast import is being fixed for an upcoming release. The abilty to create data rates other than 175x in RED's tools is up to the RED team to implement.

If you choose any other resolution other than 175x, then it is transcoding.

Michael

Any ideas on the eta for the fast import? Will this affect the transcode to 36 (or other) speed?