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Joe Carney
04-24-2007, 02:42 PM
Stu Maschwitz (creator of Colorista) has some interesting info on Color.

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007/04/color-my-impression.html

Craig W. Bickerstaff
04-24-2007, 03:35 PM
Sounds like moaning to me, But hey maybe he's just coming off as another John C. Dvorack

Stu Maschwitz
04-24-2007, 03:38 PM
Dude, that's just cold blooded. :)

Believe it or not, I was trying to make productive suggestions for how Apple could improve the thing. Far be it from me to complain about Apple giving out a $25K app for free!

-Stu

Simon Blackledge
04-24-2007, 03:42 PM
stu, I got a bit confused with the realtime quicktime on apples site.. then you say its not ? was the demo just SD ?

..And what setup did Chris have to do that, that long ago! lol

Stu Maschwitz
04-24-2007, 03:44 PM
I'm no expert on how Color does its monitoring, but Chris's comment was not the first time I've heard that adding a video out slowed playback performance. I've asked a question on the creative cow forum in hopes of clarifying the situation.

-Stu

Simon Blackledge
04-24-2007, 03:46 PM
Unless ya spending over 200k there's always a "secret" ain't there! ..tut

Robert Sanders
04-24-2007, 03:47 PM
Never mind.

Bruce Allen
04-24-2007, 04:03 PM
Stu, great to see you here! Excellent article.

Summary: wait till Apple gets their GPU and software game together - only then will you have realtime. Lustre has realtime secondaries already on PC. Come Apple, get with the current graphics card generation!

Ah, what do I care... this all falls into my plan to wait until the end of next year before buying anything anyway.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Poi Boy
04-24-2007, 07:37 PM
I'm sure the real time issue will be fixed down the road. For now I consider it a fair trade for a $25K discount.
Aloha
-A

Thomas Mathai
04-24-2007, 08:26 PM
Sounds like moaning to me, But hey maybe he's just coming off as another John C. Dvorack


You seem to have accidently put your foot in your mouth.

It's one thing to disagree, but to belittle someone doesn't really help this forum gain friends amoungst the pros.

If you bothered to do some research, you'd realize that Stu isn't just some hack making things up.

He's got some great insight into the tools we use as indie filmmakers.

If you disagree with Stu's comments, why not give us your "expert" opinion instead of snide remarks.

Lucas Wilson
04-24-2007, 08:50 PM
I'm no expert on how Color does its monitoring, but Chris's comment was not the first time I've heard that adding a video out slowed playback performance. I've asked a question on the creative cow forum in hopes of clarifying the situation.

Hey Stu...

I believe the answer is pretty simple. Is the NVidia SDI card supported on OS-X? http://www.apple.com/macpro/graphics.html

So that means out of the NVidia buffer and package into neutral format and back on to the PCI bus. Deal with all other traffic on PCI bus. Then into AJA card. Unpackage and convert to AJA native format for output. Then output.

Slows things down an awful lot.

I'm typing this e-mail on a MacPro with a 30" display and have ProTools running the background. Some things, OS-X great for. Some things, not.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA.

hmurchison
04-24-2007, 09:02 PM
Dude, that's just cold blooded. :)

Believe it or not, I was trying to make productive suggestions for how Apple could improve the thing. Far be it from me to complain about Apple giving out a $25K app for free!

-Stu

That "is" cold blooded. Dvorak's an idiot but he's fun to read. Stu is no idiot.

I agree with the article. I think including Color nee FinalTouch will show people just how hard grading a production is. It's like grabbing Wavelab and suddenly thinking you're Bob Ludwig...until you compare your mastered mixes to his routine stuff.

Apple runs like clockwork.

Version 1 product will be basic and somewhat incomplete but it will look good and offer promise.

Version 2 product will add many new features and correct those "what where they thinking?" features.

Version 3 product is "wow they have almost everything I need here and it works!"

The trick is figuring out if Color is in Version 1 state or, because it has been worked by previous owners, is it Version 2?

Apple is hellbent on maintaining secrecy which is why they have such a vibrant "rumors" community. I understand the frustration of developers who have to read the tea leaves to ascertain where Apple is "really" going.

With that being said I'm pretty excited. FCS2 looks good but there are going to be some rough edges. I think Apple is aligning their ships and pointing them in the right direction. We know need a totally modern Digital Audio Workstation (Logic Pro 8) and Shake's rumored successor (Phenomenon) and of course further maturation of the current tools.

Now's a great time to be making "films". However computers allow you to accomplish a lot but don't let anyone fool you. Doing "anything" well is work.

Dice
04-24-2007, 09:18 PM
Hey guys, I'm new. So please take it easy.

I've been a FinalTouch Colorist for 18 months. Sometimes often painful, but, I/we built a workflow that worked and it helped add/change services our business offered.

This development of Color for free I will say at first pissed me off. But. We had one Finaltouch system on our XSAN. Now, we'll have 10! So, now I'm happy, render on one, start job #2 on another, double bill, big smiles all around!

Stu is right on, is it real time? No? Well, for me, it depends. Color will have realtime on the fastest MacPro, and as they get faster, more realtime. Add Leopard...faster! Today I'm seeing render times of 2-3 x realtime. So :30 sec spot renders in Float in 1 minute! Not bad. Color, $1299 (at the most). Others? $X00,000 dollars?

1. Color will demand everything of your Mac. So if you wanna be colorist and have clients in the room...start with the fastest MacPro with an ATI1900. Why ATI? Floating point renders. NVidia does not do this on a MAC! So its less come on Apple and more NVidia doing more than processing in 8 bit on a Mac! A FastMac is the dongle! Can you run Color on a MacBook Pro 17", yes, it'll be great for creating looks etc. But why would I want grade on that when I still need calibrated monitors, scopes, controllers, lighting etc. IMHO.

2. When the time comes for me to go to my boss and tell hime to cut me a check for a Lustre/Baselight/Nucoda...I'd gladly do so. But let me just say, this Red camera, combined with Apples Pro Apps, plugins etc etc etc are about to turn this whole industry on its ear! The talent will win, not just anyone who can open Color. Hell, I'm an FCP, FinalTouch errr Color Pro, I'm dangerously bad with Motion and can't author a DVD to save my life! I own them all. So with all these major changes happening, if I owned a Nucoda, how would I get Redcode into it? Interact back in forth with an editor? Or send it to DVD Studio for Authoring? Apple is at least solving this problem right now! Digital Vision? Autodesk? I wonder what they're up too. Its a fun and scary time, one can never slow down learning and researching or they'll be dusted!

Just my thoughts for now. You guys getting this camera will have quite a journey in front of you! I look forward to the chance to grade some of it soon! We all will win with our talent, not the tool. Anyways, I'll be lurking!

Desert Rune
04-24-2007, 09:21 PM
Stu, some good insights!

Though, I wish Apple would just integrate Color into Final Cut Pro so that roundtripping would not be necessary. Same goes with adding 5.1 surround without the need for Soundtrack Pro 2.

Lucas Wilson
04-24-2007, 09:23 PM
start with the fastest MacPro with an ATI1900. Why ATI? Floating point renders. NVidia does not do this on a MAC! So its less come on Apple and more NVidia doing more than processing in 8 bit on a Mac!

I don't know exactly how Color does rendering, but this statement is incorrect. NVidia will render at 16- and 32-bit float just fine on OS-X.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA.

Cail Young
04-24-2007, 11:30 PM
Though, I wish Apple would just integrate Color into Final Cut Pro so that roundtripping would not be necessary. Same goes with adding 5.1 surround without the need for Soundtrack Pro 2.

Interface bloat becomes a real problem... Color's interface could not be simply wrapped into an effect tab, so you're looking at a modal dialogue like the Boris text generators, at which point you then have to either replicate the timeline within the interface (i.e., just put a "Launch Color" button in FCP - barely different from the situation we have now) or offer the full control of Color for one clip at a time - a definite step backwards.

Similarly for sound mixing - FCP offers basic rubberbanding and effects control but it isn't really easy to do complex mixing. You could add the surround panner to the audio mix window, I suppose... But then how to define the output?

Dice
04-25-2007, 06:00 AM
not in my experience in FT/Color. In my experience, after own an NVidia, 4500, I'd run fast from NVIdia on a Mac. ATI 1900 blows tthe 4500 away, no ther other card supported in a MacPro at this point.

And, if you tried to render float in FT/Color...I feel you'd understand this is not an option worth taking.

By the way saw your products at NAB, nice stiff.

Graeme Nattress
04-25-2007, 06:57 AM
Stu, as Color is pure GPU, video output will slow it down. Best way for output is via the second DVI output on your card, to another computer monitor. That works great as then the data doesn't need to go up to the GPU, through the shaders, back down into main memory and up on to the SDI output card.

Graeme

Graeme Nattress
04-25-2007, 07:01 AM
Rendering depth just effects the size of the memory buffer that is used as an intermediate between shaders. Shaders themselves are always floating point. I run FT on a ATI X800 and NVIDIA 4500 and it's pretty good on both. I'm looking forwards to seeing how the new "Color" is running on them, and I guess I'll find out soon. The plugins work though, so that's the important thing.

Graeme

Nick Shaw
04-25-2007, 07:44 AM
Stu, as Color is pure GPU, video output will slow it down.

Does that mean that because REDCINE is a combination of GPU and CPU you will be able to implement VOUT previewing to a broadcast monitor at some point without such a speed hit?

I know it's not that simple, as for example Shake (CPU only) gets a lot slower when you enable the broadcast monitor. I find, for example, the QuickPaint node is virtually unusable with the broadcast monitor on.

Graeme Nattress
04-25-2007, 08:32 AM
That's not what REDCINE is designed for though. It's a RAW conversion tool. If you calibrate your computer monitor, you'll get accurate colour though.

Graeme

Joe Carney
04-25-2007, 09:19 AM
I posted the link, because I thought it was a great 'bs free' look at Color, not an attack. For those of us considering fcs2, as in moving from Windows, addtional info is very helpful in the decision making process. I've grown imune to the usual hype Apple puts out.

btw Stu, love the book.

Joe C.

Nik Manning
04-25-2007, 09:19 AM
So would having a matrox mxo help to speed up Colors realtime performance? since it previews through DVI?

Nick Shaw
04-25-2007, 09:43 AM
In 'mastering mode' the MXO acts as a VOut device, so the data still needs to pass through the CPU and system bus. At least that's my understanding. So no speed gain there.

In desktop mirror mode it might help, although it might not be colour or pixel accurate. To be seen I guess.

Clayton Harper
04-25-2007, 10:02 AM
If you calibrate your computer monitor, you'll get accurate colour though.

Graeme

You mean System Preferences>Displays>Color>Calibrate?

Is there another more accurate method for correcting LCD?

Graeme Nattress
04-25-2007, 10:14 AM
Use a gretagMacbeth Eye One? Works great here. Much more accurate colour, especially noticible in the purity of "white".

Graeme

Clayton Harper
04-25-2007, 10:57 AM
Use a gretagMacbeth Eye One? Works great here. Much more accurate colour, especially noticible in the purity of "white".

Graeme

Thanks for the tip!

Chris Kenny
04-25-2007, 12:44 PM
Use a gretagMacbeth Eye One? Works great here. Much more accurate colour, especially noticible in the purity of "white".


Does that solve the problem, though? If video apps supported e.g. ColorSync, they could assume your footage was Rec. 709 (or whatever), look at your monitor's profile, and compensate to display appropriately. But unlike in the desktop publishing world, very view video apps have such color management support.

Doesn't this mean you'd actually have to calibrate your monitor to emulate Rec. 709 directly? That is, create a profile for it such that RGB values displayed on it would display as if on a Rec. 709 screen, with no color space conversion on the part of the app doing the display? Can this be done, and if so, how well does it work?

Graeme Nattress
04-25-2007, 12:50 PM
Colour calibration gets tricky..... But the Eye One calibration certainly makes a great difference to the image.

Graeme

Desert Rune
04-25-2007, 12:56 PM
The extent of the color calibration I do on my Mac is opening Display Calibrator Assistant and using the time tested technique of eye squinting. :unsure:

Although I notice the factory presets on the Apple Cinema Displays are for the most part fairly accurate.

Simon Blackledge
04-25-2007, 01:05 PM
Was thinking about a spyder.. thanks for the tip Graeme


Was considering the Spyder Tv for a plasma.. looks intresting was to tweak a plasma or lcd...

s

Stu Maschwitz
04-25-2007, 01:47 PM
I posted the link, because I thought it was a great 'bs free' look at Color, not an attack...

Thanks man, that was my intent. Kinda bums me out that some are reading it another way, but maybe they're not accustomed to the "tough love" I reserve for software companies who make tools I actually like!

And thanks for the kind words about the book, it means a lot.

-Stu

Stu Maschwitz
04-25-2007, 01:52 PM
Stu, as Color is pure GPU, video output will slow it down. Best way for output is via the second DVI output on your card, to another computer monitor. That works great as then the data doesn't need to go up to the GPU, through the shaders, back down into main memory and up on to the SDI output card.

Makes sense. I didn't see Color configured to use the 2nd computer display as a pure image display, but I assume it has such a mode. At NAB they were using both Cinema Displays for the UI and the video out to drive a plasma.

-Stu

Graeme Nattress
04-25-2007, 01:56 PM
There's a few different view modes you can run in. The old FT way of doing it was full screen for the image on your second monitor and Color can do that too.

Graeme

Simon Blackledge
04-25-2007, 02:37 PM
Makes sense. I didn't see Color configured to use the 2nd computer display as a pure image display, but I assume it has such a mode. At NAB they were using both Cinema Displays for the UI and the video out to drive a plasma.

-Stu
but at NAB were they not showing previews of clips playing in realtime? saw that on a podcast.. so if thats video out to a plasma (sony ?? as usual?) what output? aja io/hd?

S

roryhinds
04-25-2007, 03:26 PM
I've used Final Touch for about 2 years now and have always been at the edge with Silicon Color and Roland... I guess I was just a bit to focal about the problems I was facing with the software.

Its great Apple have bought it as I do thing the Silicon Color guys where struggling with the code and getting ti to do what was advertised.

The workflow was a pain as XML was never a smooth go from FCP to FT and back again.

Color looks like the Apple crew have come to the rescue and I can't wait to see what they do with it from here.

Yes realtime playback was always a hit and miss as the data pipeline was the bottle neck. Hopefully Apple will sort out the graphics card options but hey... how long have we all been waiting Apple to do this :-(

Maybe with Intel on board things will change. I know that having the RED shakeup is changing a lot of things fast... a lot faster than people thought was possible.

Run, run, run for the hills.. the revelation is coming!

RED, Apple, Intel - finally reasonable prices on professional gear, times are good in a Mac users.

As for Final Touch being almost free - well look at Shake. Its an amazing piece of software and cost nothing yet very few people can actually operate it.

Talent will rule which has always been the outcome.

Nick Shaw
04-25-2007, 03:44 PM
Doesn't this mean you'd actually have to calibrate your monitor to emulate Rec. 709 directly? That is, create a profile for it such that RGB values displayed on it would display as if on a Rec. 709 screen, with no color space conversion on the part of the app doing the display? Can this be done, and if so, how well does it work?

Final Cut Pro does that to an extent, at least in terms of gamma. It's not precise, but it gives you a reasonable preview on the computer monitor.

Joe Carney
04-26-2007, 06:51 AM
Hey Stu, you're post at prolost is being misinterpreted again, this time by digit mag over in the UK.

http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/index.cfm?email&NewsID=7789

Stu Maschwitz
04-26-2007, 08:06 AM
Yes, they got it wronger than most. They also promoted me to CEO and claimed that Apple integrated Rayz tech into their products, which is not true (they just bought and buried it).

-Stu

dalemccready
04-26-2007, 11:39 PM
Hey for you calibrating junkies, try SuperCal for perceptual calibration. It's the only thing that could take the pink tint from my 23" cinema display.

Makes for good colour profiles