Major Announcement...

[Jannard]

We are very happy to announce that we have a significant upgrade to the RED ONE camera coming in the form of an update to one of the major boards in the camera, effectively further increasing dynamic range and reducing noise in the image. Our original goal was to complete this upgrade later in the year, but we now plan to implement this improvement prior to shipping any cameras. It will cause a minor delay, but we are absolutely certain that every customer will feel the improvement was worth the wait. It also eliminates a future board change down the road.

We will publish a new shipping schedule that reflects this update in a couple of weeks.

Jim

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Sounds good. :)

[Álex Montoya]

That's very good news, Jim.

[Yash Keough]

Niceeee! That's awesome Jim! I wonder how many stops now?

[Gregory Karydis]

I am happy with that :)
Thanks Jim.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Wow. What noise? Sounds great or should I say looks great!

Quick question from NAB, are the inputs going to get a rubber seal on them before shipping or will it be time for gaffers tape to seal the open inputs?

[Kjetil Haugen]

Increased dynamic range!! Again, you had me at hello, Jim! I don't think you'll hear any complaints.

[feb31films]

I'm sure that once a lot of users get there cameras in hand, they won't relish the thought of sending them back - even if it is for a major upgrade. Sounds like a wise decision. And great news! And I thought things couldn't get any better....

[Joe Aurili]

Nice :)

[Charles Perkins]

SWEET!!

nice to see i'm not going to have to send my Red back now. Nice one Jim and the team.

[Kjetil Haugen]

See if this was any other camera company they would have waited with improvments for their next version of the camera, just to sell more of them. I'm loving the fact that Jim is such a perfectionist and protective of his baby. Makes me sleep better at night. We're in good hands!!!!

[Steve Gibby]

Excellent news!

If there was thought of upgrading the boards, I think it's better to upgrade them at the outset, rather than go through the process later. Increased dynamic range and reduced noise is always welcome - although the noise level of the current prototypes was already extremely low.

Thanks Jim...much appreciated...

[Jaime Vallés]

You know, if we didn't know any better, this sounds exactly like the kind of "ridiculous statement" that raises red flags in people's brains signaling SNAKE OIL!!!:bleh:

Fantastic news. I'm not in a rush, so any delay in order to get even better image quality is fine by me. Can't wait to see the 4K footage projected somewhere in NYC!

[David Collard]

Thanks, Jim.
I haven't earned my stripes yet, but for what it's worth
I am so proud of you guys!

[Ken Willinger]

Increased dynamic range...yeah baby!

[Karl H]

good news. My inexperience talking here but I assumed DR was a direct result of the sensor, or at least mostly due to it. Can we expect a significant increase in DR from a board upgrade, or are we talking less than 1/3 of a stop from a DSP enhancement somewhere in the chain?.... all is welcome, but I'd like to know a little more from anyone in the know :-)

Noise reduction is always welcome.

I actually thought there was noise on 2 shots in the PJ stills. The one with the cig being rolled, and the one of the propeller blades. Im uncertain whether this was just present in the alpha cameras, due to the sensor misalignment, or whether it was underexposed and pushed... Whatever the case this is really good news in my eyes.

Im not in a rush either. Id rather have the best that can be delivered than have Red One rushed out to satisfy all the reservation holders.

[Ronnie Silos]

All I can say is TAKE YOUR TIME JIM!!! Wise decision! WE will all benefit from this improvement. I love it! From what I saw at NAB though, I was blown away already. You are a perfectionist!

[Seth Larney]

This is great news Jim. Thanks very much !

[Christian Berg]

Jim, do you have a feeling of how many weeks of delay? Will the delay be for every number of camera or just the first, say 200...?
Planning my trip to the states...
Glad to here about the upgrade, super nice!
/Christian

[Roxco]

Looks like another door opens for software to add grain in post.

Why can't you just make a Tyco Camera for the masses? ;)

BTW: Thanks for the update,

Rosco

P.S. Check out the Toyco raster and s/n ratio below

- http://www.reality.demon.co.uk/tyco.htm

- http://www.bitpress.com/tyco/fren.html

[LighthouseMEdia]

HOO-RAH RED!!
Yet again the team proves their dedication to make this a on ongoing project in development!! Which mean for the customers as end users the camera continues to grow and get better and better. Count me as happy :)

[Justin O'Neill]

MORE dynamic range??? Wow... you make us happy Jim.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Its hard not to wonder about the degree of improvement vs duration of delay equation but I feel certain it is only one of many engineering choices made throughout the development process.

Unfortunately, since the pressure to project shipping dates was so intense, there is now a more defined set of expectations. NAB also ramped up the anticipation factor.

Looking forward to the new estimated shipping schedule whenever you feel comfortable releasing one.

[ericyoung]

Sweet! :sorcerer:

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Jim i think that now is the perfect time to start your religion. It will be very successful !!

[Harmonica]

So what's a little delay? As far as I'm concerned you can make as many "major announcements" as you want before my camera ships:)

[Zk2007]

More dynamic range is always nice. But the delay I'm not so happy about. I was hoping to be able to shoot my next project in August with RED. But if it will de delayed I guess it's not happening and we will have to shoot with another camera. I won't be able to delay production. Just too much money to lose. Pity.

[Jason Francois]

Dear Jim,

Sounds like a great idea to me. I'm willing to wait as long as it takes.

Patiently Yours,

Jason :)

[Todd Anderson]

I just want to say it is very refreshing to have such a highly ethical and loyal company behind such a revolutionary product. Love the commitment and perfection of it all.

Jim is most certainly going to go down in history sitting at the same table as George Eastman, Steve Jobs, and perhaps Howard Hughes.... hopefully without all that dementia baggage rubbing off from the latter, of course.

I am in awe.

[Brook Willard]

Can't wait to hear the details... this sounds like fantastic news...

Kudos to all involved.

Time to bust out that T4110C again... :)

[Mardi_Gras]

Jim,

This is your baby from the start. You know better than the rest of us regarding when you think the RedOne will be ready for prime time, so that is settled.

In the meantime however, posting a full version of PJ's film (even in the same 1k format) will be enough to keep one busy while we await further information from you and your very busy team. As always, I appreciate the opportunity. Ciao.

[Tom Lowe]

Cool. Rock on, Jannard.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

The news just gets better and better. I can wait an extra few weeks if not a month or so for my shipping date. I'm just excited about this whole process. The RED Digital Cinema Production Package will be kick starting my business, and for that I'm extremely grateful.

[Joe Vinson]

Any specifics on how much a delay we can expect? I'm sure it will be worth the wait, but it's good to know exactly how long we'll need to postpone all the big projects we're dreaming up.

[Ezana Tekeste]

Although I like the name, Red One, I can't help thinking that the ability and willingness of the Red Team to continually improve the camera --as opposed to selling more new and improved Ones (pun intended) in the future--makes this camera "the gift that keeps giving." :-)

[Clint Johnson]

Jim, you've said all along that the specification and time line is subject to change so there is no real place for whingeing here (not that there has been that much). The specifications have been getting better by huge margins while the delivery dates have slipped less so.

OK, the delivery date movement will be hard for those who have projects that they were expecting to shoot with the Red but come on folks... it is wishful thinking to build a shooting schedule around a camera that is still in development.

I'm an indie guy and I had a project in development with the hope that Red #351 would get here in August... always keeping in mind the probability of delay, I've got another project on the backburner that doesn't require exterior shots just in case the camera doesn't ship before the snow flies. I'm thinking that maybe I should move that project up to the front of the stove eh?

We got over three feet of the white stuff last October so that would drive me inside rather quickly.

[Brook Willard]

I'm guessing that the number can't/won't go above 12 stops, unless there's a more dramatic overhaul underway as well?

[Michael Schrengohst]

Japanese Video company executive - rolls eyes - lets out huge sigh while shaking his head.

[zak forrest]

I'm guessing that the number can't/won't go above 12 stops, unless there's a more dramatic overhaul underway as well?

funny i was thinkin the same thing



LOVE the helicopter pic.....

[Laco Zamba]

Maybe 14 bits / 14 stops upgrade will be possible?

[Shawn Bannon]

If boards are swappable, does this mean shooting 4k at 60fps or more in REDCODE RAW is possible down the road with the REDONE?

[Joel Kaye]

Maybe 14 bits / 14 stops upgrade will be possible?

That would be surprising - I'm sorta guessing this upgrade will get us to the promised 11 1/3 stops. But if I'm wrong and it's more that'll be even scarier for Arri and Dalsa.

[Jared VanLeuven]

That would be surprising - I'm sorta guessing this upgrade will get us to the promised 11 1/3 stops. But if I'm wrong and it's more that'll be even scarier for Arri and Dalsa.

It's the new real-time HDR upgrade. Yow! :biggrin:

BTW, Jim & team - much thanks again for the evolution of the revolution.

[Mike Zinner]

I'm in no hurry what-so-ever. I hope you take all the time you need to make it right.

[b e n t o n]

that is beautiful news - and worth a delay...

I wonder how many productions, like mine, are waiting on Red...

I suspect well worth the wait

[Adrian Correia]

thank you Jim and the red team!!!

[Chris Kenny]

You don't strictly need more than 12 bits to record more than 12 stops. You can fit as many stops as you want into as few bits as you want -- you just get more quantization error.

And I suppose you could always do 12 bit log.

[Barend Onneweer]

I'm guessing that the number can't/won't go above 12 stops, unless there's a more dramatic overhaul underway as well?

I'm no expert on circuitboards and DSPs, but the general consensus seems to be that 12-bit A/D limits the output to a theoretical maximum of 12 stops.

Assuming the sensor actually supplies the A/D with a wider range signal, replacing the board with a 14-bit A/D might help in increasing the dynamic range.

And although you can't really compare Red One with an F23 - the latter claims 13 stops of dynamic range. Jim just might want to match that.

The thing is, even though it's an incredible accomplishment to develop a working camera from scratch in a year - some of the parts that they've designed the camera around will be ... uhm superseeded in performance even before the camera ships. And since they will want to get this one 'right', it's all about cramming in every ounce of power until they just have to let it go.

Maybe building this camera is more like making a movie than I realized: it's never 'finished', only 'abandoned'. At one point Jim will have to let her go...

Until the next firmware update that is... :biggrin:

But I'll happily wait for a bit.

[Jeff Deveraux]

Jim-
If you and your team were to build a car, I would expect it would be fuel-less and could even fly.

You all rock!

[Laco Zamba]

14 bits is just my speculation :-) 11 and 1/3 stops is great.

[Keith Nealy]

Great news Jim, thanks.

It sounds like one of your suppliers was able to improve a chip or a circuit faster than expected. This, I'm sure, will have a two-fold benefit - it will let you release a camera with better specs - better to squash more skeptics, and it will let you keep the price down - not having to install another board in the near future. This makes us all happy. Thank you for your astute leadership and vision.

As for comparisons to Steve Jobs... certainly - but also Thomas Jefferson and Abe Lincoln - for to paraphrase them...


"We the people... have the right to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of independant motion pictures... that this world, under Jannard, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that creative freedom... of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth but live on under a banner of RED"

Aloha,

Keith

[Graeme Nattress]

They can claim 13 stops for 1080p, but we all know that if you take an image and scale it down, you get lower noise, so at 11.3 stops for 4k, going down to 1080p is going to effectively make our pixels 4 times the size, or you could say, 2 extra stops DR....

That said, a claim of DR is meaningless without the backup of how it was measured.

Graeme

[Nicolas Guillou]

Very nice !

[Tonaci Tran]

As if the RED camera couldn't get any better. Excellent news. The only other thing I am crossing my fingers on is variable frame rates for initial release.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm no expert on circuitboards and DSPs, but the general consensus seems to be that 12-bit A/D limits the output to a theoretical maximum of 12 stops.

With a 12bit system, you have 12 distinct representational values. It doesn't need to directly correlate with the number of stops within the captured dynamic range. A wider range with more distinct stops than bit levels just requires more interpolation between the values... More quantization errors as Chris said. It could be linear or logarithmic in nature too. Technically, 12bits could capture 24 stops and leave the rest of the DSP pipeline to interpolate the values in between. or it could do 16 stops with a logarithmic curve gaining more stops on the high and low ends if you wanted. But a lot of this still comes back to the sensor and what it can capture. Lots of pro video camera systems out there with 12 or 14 bit DSPs these days. Do they capture a full 12 or 14 stops? Nope.

No reason to speculate on what this means to RED. I think Jim already summed it up saying better range and less grain. We'll know in a few weeks when cameras ship and Gibby and others start their tests.

[Chris Gearhart]

Wow. I just got a camera hardware upgrade mod before I even got my camera.

I can't . . . wow.

[Brian Kaz]

Kudos to you guys for upgrading this late in the game. You knew everyone would have been fine without it, but that wasn't good enough.

This is exactly why I chose Red.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I don't know what this 12 bit = 12 stop nonsense is. 12 bits can hold 4096 distinct stops or gradations. If you're willing to sacrifice every other stop you could have 8192 stops. You could have 14 stops and 8 bits. Their relationship is completely arbitrary.

[Barend Onneweer]

They can claim 13 stops for 1080p, but we all know that if you take an image and scale it down, you get lower noise, so at 11.3 stops for 4k, going down to 1080p is going to effectively make our pixels 4 times the size, or you could say, 2 extra stops DR....

That said, a claim of DR is meaningless without the backup of how it was measured.

Absolutely true. It's apples and oranges anyway. I was basically saying it seems that Jims wants to blow everyone's socks off with the release of Red One. And now that he's got expectations off the charts he's still aiming to exceed those...

Can't argue with that. Or at least I won't :-) I'll just happily wait until number 368 comes up.

[Gbabymogul]

Heck, I don't mind if it negates major upgrades soon after receiving the camera. Good choice to include it now...

Is this what the 90% feature complete meant ?
Will you be changing that chart too?, or is this independent of that ?

I'm still not sure what's 90 % feature enabled, 98% feature enabled. I was thinking of waiting to get the 90% feature enabled version (sounds close enough to me). My co-producer thinks i'm bananas. :-)

[jbeale]

I don't know what this 12 bit = 12 stop nonsense is. 12 bits can hold 4096 distinct stops or gradations.
Most people here are referring to dynamic range related to exposure in lens f-stops, this is the industry standard way of expressing it. In f-stops, for a linear transfer function, 1 stop is 1 bit, and 12 stops is 12 bits (neglecting noise & quantization error).

If you use a nonlinear transfer function before the A/D, for example a log curve then yes you can have any arbitrary dynamic range with fixed # of bits. However the Red camera design is (up to now) linear, which has certain advantages.

[Barend Onneweer]

I'm still not sure what's 90 % feature enabled, 98% feature enabled. I was thinking of waiting to get the 90% feature enabled version (sounds close enough to me). My co-producer thinks i'm bananas. :-)

I can't help you with the bananas, but I'm assuming (!) that the lacking features are software features that will be updated by loading new firmware.

It's been mentioned that the first cameras to be distributed wouldn't have all the Redcode RGB functionality. So you might (speculation) not be able to record on-board RGB (2k, 1080p etc.) at first, but you'd be able to fix this with a firmware update. Similar to how Blackmagic adds new functionality to their Decklink boards with new drivers.

In the long term Red might come out with things like board replacements etc, to improve performance or whatnot.

[Gbabymogul]

I'm assuming (!) that the lacking features are software features that will be updated by loading new firmware.

It's been mentioned that the first cameras to be distributed wouldn't have all the Redcode RGB functionality. So you might (speculation) not be able to record on-board RGB (2k, 1080p etc.) at first, but you'd be able to fix this with a firmware update.

Yup.

I'd like to have confirmation by the RED team, though. Depending on what features are enabled will make a difference to what gear I purchase now, or gear i purchase later. It will also mean waiting a month or two depending on if i feel the features not yet included are needed for my applications. I can't decide any of that on guessing. ;)

I'm happy with the news today about better dr etc... but i've seen this asked numerous times, with no response by the RED dudes. I just wanted to know if the board had anything to do with the 'features enabled'. Maybe they were waiting for a newboard before implementing REdcode RGB for example.

Just wonderin'...

[Craig Bowman]

That's great news Jim! Dynamic range was always a huge selling point with me. The more the merrier!

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Is REDone the pandoras box? Ok, I'll wait with hard wide open.

[Michael Ragen]

Maybe the upgrade will allower for higher gain settings. The new Canon 1D MarkIII can go up to 6400 and is apparently quite usuable at 3200. Anyone seen any examples of this?

[Alexander Nikishin]

Like I've said all along, I'm willing to wait as long as it takes to get it right. Thanks Jim!

[casey warren]

The more dyamic range the better! whoo. This forum gets better everyday, along with the camera.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Great news. No problem with a delay.

[Brook Willard]

I don't know what this 12 bit = 12 stop nonsense is. 12 bits can hold 4096 distinct stops or gradations. If you're willing to sacrifice every other stop you could have 8192 stops. You could have 14 stops and 8 bits. Their relationship is completely arbitrary.

Just because VHS can display the 'dynamic range' of film does not mean that VHS has the same dynamic range as film. It's just not usable.

In the same way, expressing more stops of latitude in a lesser bitspace leads to nasty quantization and generally unappealing data. Having more stops than bits will lead to a flat looking image that cannot be fully recovered with a pretty transfer curve without bringing out ugly artifacting.

Consider 8-bit HDR images. Sure they appear to have massive latitude, but it's not useful latitude. If you tried to re-express the data in a more appropriate bit depth, the wheels would fall off.

This is, of course, a brief aside to this thread.

[casey warren]

Maybe the upgrade will allower for higher gain settings. The new Canon 1D MarkIII can go up to 6400 and is apparently quite usuable at 3200. Anyone seen any examples of this?


http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-8738-8908

This is a great article about the new Canon Mark III, check it out: its got some good examples, also with some high ISO photos.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Just because VHS can display the 'dynamic range' of film does not mean that VHS has the same dynamic range as film. It's just not usable.

In the same way, expressing more stops of latitude in a lesser bitspace leads to nasty quantization and generally unappealing data. Having more stops than bits will lead to a flat looking image that cannot be fully recovered with a pretty transfer curve without bringing out ugly artifacting.

Consider 8-bit HDR images. Sure they appear to have massive latitude, but it's not useful latitude. If you tried to re-express the data in a more appropriate bit depth, the wheels would fall off.

This is, of course, a brief aside to this thread.

Bit depth and exposure latitude useful or not is completely arbitrary. a 12bit image is already throwing away data from the real world. You could record 12 stops to 32 bit and get really reallly smooth gradations. Eventually however it's just sort of overkill for most situations.

All A/D conversions involve quantization and loss even the RED with 12 stops. I'm hearing a bunch of "best practices" scenarios being thrown around like it's based on electrical engineering principles. To the best of my knowledge 1:1 stop to bit dynamic range has no basis engineering.

[Brook Willard]

You make a good point - it's something very important to be familiar with. There will always be data loss whenever something "real" has to be represented with bits. My 6dB:1 stop: 1 bit thought stems from the fact that that is the general norm for capture, manipulation and playback these days.

[Graeme Nattress]

Assuming a linear system, you can't get any more detail in your digital representation of an analogue signal if the digital quantisation noise is lower than the analogue noise floor. Digital quantisation noise is approximately (6db * number of bits) below full signal. So, if you have around >66db SNR, going beyond 12bits doesn't capture you any more detail, but it can capture the noise floor smoother. And hence that's where we get 1bit = 6db from. It's actually around 6.02, or precisely 20Log10(2^n).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantisation_noise

Graeme

[Evin Grant]

Graeme, sometimes my head hurts after I read your posts. I think it's my brain growing:nerd:

[Brook Willard]

Someday I'll actually understand all that. I'm close to getting it... but not quite there yet.

[Finner]

Graeme, sometimes my head hurts after I read your posts. I think it's my brain growing:nerd:


When that happens to me Evan I just insert a Q-tip all the way in my ear and Poke that brain until it settles down.

Holy Crap Graeme I went to film school because you get to make pretty pictures and work with hot chicks. I don't understand what your saying but if it helps me make prettier pictures and work with hotter chicks I am all for it.

[Alex Wengert]

That would be surprising - I'm sorta guessing this upgrade will get us to the promised 11 1/3 stops. But if I'm wrong and it's more that'll be even scarier for Arri and Dalsa.

Arri and Dalsa crapped their pants at 9:30 a.m. April 16th.

[vanguy]

If you think Graeme's response makes your head hurt, try reading the Wikipedia link.

[Brook Willard]

Arri's actually pretty excited about the camera. It means they'll sell more accessories and lenses! They were super cool about letting RED use their equipment at NAB.

[Steve Gibby]

Graeme, sometimes my head hurts after I read your posts. I think it's my brain growing:nerd:

LOL...aw ya mental wimp...you don't understand Graeme sometimes?! Join the crowd...

IMO just nod and agree because he always seems to know what hes talking about. Plus he's got the flick on the timeworn colloquilism: "If you can't dazzle 'em with your footwork, baffle 'em with your brain...or better yet, do both!"

Graeme was first in line when they originally handed out the techno-savvy brains...

[Corrado Silveri]

Assuming a linear system, you can't get any more detail in your digital representation of an analogue signal if the digital quantisation noise is lower than the analogue noise floor. Digital quantisation noise is approximately (6db * number of bits) below full signal. So, if you have around >66db SNR, going beyond 12bits doesn't capture you any more detail, but it can capture the noise floor smoother. And hence that's where we get 1bit = 6db from. It's actually around 6.02, or precisely 20Log10(2^n).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantisation_noise

Graeme

Graeme, many thanks.
I'm 40 years old now.
One year ago, I was thinking that my study was over.
Now, almost everyday, I find myself hanging with dictionary, wikipedia, books and... whatever "reliable source".
(Trying to understand "in depht" your posts)

I have a lot of experience.
Now I'm a student again!


Thanks again.

Corrado.

[jbeale]

A 12bit image is already throwing away data from the real world. You could record 12 stops to 32 bit and get really reallly smooth gradations. Eventually however it's just sort of overkill for most situations. All A/D conversions involve quantization and loss [...]

If we are speaking theoretically.... ultimately, cameras record light. Light comes in discrete units called "photons". You may think this is not relevant in practical cases, but in very dim conditions, the discrete photon nature of light actually does become significant to the noise level in real cameras. Image sensors like CCDs and CMOS chips detect discrete electrons (or electron-hole pairs) caused by absorption of photons. As I recall the peak quantum efficiency (electrons out per photons in) of a good quality sensor is better than 0.5, although I don't know what the readout noise level of any specific design is relative to these quanta.

My point is, at some level, a camera measures something that is already quantized: first as photons hitting the sensor, and then as electrons coming out of the sensor. So even setting aside analog noise, it is not true to say that you can always get more resolution (smoother gradients, etc.) if you just had more bits in your A/D. I don't know in practical terms where these quantum effects start becoming a noticeable part of the total noise level, but I know the best modern CCD sensors are already well inside of that ballpark.

Of course A/D design also involves tradeoffs as well. I'm actually amazed that there even is a 12-bit A/D design that works at the amazing readout rates necessary for the framerates and resolutions supported by the Red camera.

[Simon Dean]

Couple of questions;

So any bits beyond the LSB contribute to the signal, giving in Red's case 6x11=66dB? However, as it is quoted as >66dB does this mean you could lose information if the SNR is actually greater than 66dB?

Also, how does quantisation noise affect the image? I know how it affects audio and dithering is used to limit the apparent effect - i.e. it's still there but not as noticeable. Can you apply dithering to the sampling of image data?

...just in case I happen to be making own sensor...ahem, errr, or maybe not.
(But I'm interested anyway)

[Adrian T.]

Take your time, Jim! Make it right.
Absolutely no problem with the delay.

[Clayton Harper]

Arri's actually pretty excited about the camera. It means they'll sell more accessories and lenses! They were super cool about letting RED use their equipment at NAB.

While I was pricing an MB20 and follow focus, the booth guys were joking that Arri was going to just become an accessory manufacturer thanks to Red. Then I thought "not if Red makes a mattebox and follow focus". :tongue:

[Rune Hansen]

Arri's actually pretty excited about the camera. It means they'll sell more accessories and lenses! They were super cool about letting RED use their equipment at NAB.

Treated us like idiots at their booth. Had the RED RESERVATION HOLDER badge in a very visible location, and at first they ignored us, and we asked about gear for cameras. The answer was a very condescending "ah for the red, well some simple lenses and a clip on mattebox is enough then."

When I made it clear to them that we were comparison shopping at least one full set of MPs, a couple of production matteboxes, studio follow focus, etc, they started paying some interest, but only for a few minutes.

If only someone else made quite as good matteboxes as they do... I think the lenses will be Cookes though, and I'll make damned sure to send the Arri guy a picture when we get them. I hate the attitude game.

-rune

[Clayton Harper]

I hate the attitude game.

-rune

Relax, they are just sad about losing their jobs. :tongue:

[Finner]

Treated us like idiots at their booth. Had the RED RESERVATION HOLDER badge in a very visible location, and at first they ignored us, and we asked about gear for cameras. The answer was a very condescending "ah for the red, well some simple lenses and a clip on mattebox is enough then."

When I made it clear to them that we were comparison shopping at least one full set of MPs, a couple of production matteboxes, studio follow focus, etc, they started paying some interest, but only for a few minutes.

If only someone else made quite as good matteboxes as they do... I think the lenses will be Cookes though, and I'll make damned sure to send the Arri guy a picture when we get them. I hate the attitude game.

-rune

Hey Rune check out the "Matte Box Woes" thread, Hope may be on the horizon.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I don´t mind the delay, just make sure Gibby takes his #8 to Norway (or Scandinavia at least) so we can have a close look, and get even more excited!

[Banexo]

Great news, that's for sure. :gun:

[Ken Corben]

Maybe building this camera is more like making a movie than I realized: it's never 'finished', only 'abandoned'. At one point Jim will have to let her go...

Well said - A RED neutral party told me today regarding the announced delay, "I told you so." I replied with a comment that even with further as yet unannounced delays for what ever reason when would we see a camera like this from one of the majors at the current price point? HUH, not in my life time.

Let alone a delay for an upgrade openly announced to RED's customers. The business norm would have been an announcement in the Fall for an optionlal board upgrade for only $2900, no? Now that speaks of integrity in my book.

And yes, Jim will have to let her go at some point :-)


I don´t mind the delay, just make sure Gibby takes his #8 to Norway (or Scandinavia at least) so we can have a close look, and get even more excited!

Man, Gibby's going to booked globally like Al Gore and just as hard to reach.

[Rune Hansen]

I don´t mind the delay, just make sure Gibby takes his #8 to Norway (or Scandinavia at least) so we can have a close look, and get even more excited!

Lykke til med det! :p

-rune
#84, #85
fra Stavanger til Mexico

[david farland]

Assuming a linear system, you can't get any more detail in your digital representation of an analogue signal if the digital quantisation noise is lower than the analogue noise floor. Digital quantisation noise is approximately (6db * number of bits) below full signal. So, if you have around >66db SNR, going beyond 12bits doesn't capture you any more detail, but it can capture the noise floor smoother. And hence that's where we get 1bit = 6db from. It's actually around 6.02, or precisely 20Log10(2^n).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantisation_noise

Graeme

Like any system you try and gain whatever advantage possible at each stage.

Years ago I designed circuitry around 16 bit (96db) a/d converters so people could look at those sneaky molecules. It resolved down to angstroms.
Apart from usual noise reduction practices in reducing ripple, CMRR, etc, oversampling the input was indeed the easiest software technique to drop the noise floor.
I guess Sony gain snr leverage when they oversample in a slight different way from 4k image to HD.
Also, I'm not familiar with your ccd and a/d circuitry but suspect you're not in the position to actually over sample the full >4K array for any one frame. Pity.

Cheers,

[Joel Kaye]

Arri's actually pretty excited about the camera.

Oh yeah - I thought I saw the whole D20 team getting drunk at a club in Vegas. That must explain it. ;-)

[Damien Molineaux]

I have a bad habit, of looking at things from a different point of view than the person opposite, next to or I'm speaking with. It has caused many heated discussions and sometimes made me unpopular, but at other times it has managed to solve problems, enlighten a debate or simply allow someone to seet things in a different perspective.

Anyhow, it's amazing how a delay in delivery is announced and everyone says "great news". Ouch, I'm going to get beat on the head for that. I'm sorry but I find it really odd to announce an upgrade was plannned for a camera not yet shipping. Now don't get me wrong, I've been expecting delays, we all know making this camera, all the accessories, the workflow, etc. is no small fee. As a matter of fact, it's absolutley amazing and I'm the first one to take my hat off to Jim, Graeme and the rest of the team. I just don't quite understand the explaination. So you've made some improvements on a major component, and decided to include it this late in the developement process, which will result in delays in shipping. Ok, I'm with you, thank you for never quitting and always wanting to give us more. I just ask that before you give us a new ship date, please please try (you are allowed to fail), but try to give us dates we can plan on.

With my regards,
Damien

[Zk2007]

Well said - A RED neutral party told me today regarding the announced delay, "I told you so."

Yep. Same thing happened to me, twice actually. One even went on to say "and you will see, they will find another reason to delay it again."
Man, talk about exercising self control. I wanted to...well, I just held back.

[Brook Willard]

Oh yeah - I thought I saw the whole D20 team getting drunk at a club in Vegas. That must explain it. ;-)

Heheh. I know RED seems like a bad thing to them now... but it's a good thing for the user in the long run. Even if not everybody wants a RED, it'll force the other companies to come to the table. You can't put a half-million dollar HD camera next to a $17,500 4K camera and expect it to last. All of these companies will have to adapt in some way... and I'm excited to see what they can bring to the table.

And re: David's oversampling idea... if you're talking about straight pixel oversampling, it wouldn't work in this case, as the scaling associated with oversampling would require in-camera debayering.

[Anders Holck]

I'll bet they'll sell a lot more ultraprimes, FF-4's, and MB-20's with the RED on the market.

[CJ Roy]

First off, I'm still getting the RED camera, regardless. It looked great at NAB, enough said. I mostly stick to being an audience and avoid participating in discussions on this board because of the lack of civility from the extremes on both sides of the argument, but there seems to be few other avenues to ask a question to Red.
Now that that is out of the way...

1) I am happy that there will be increased dynamic range and reduced noise. That's a no-brainer and a win for everyone. However, for those of us reservation holders #1-100, I thought we'd only be getting a firmware update or two later on around late summer. I had heard nothing about a planned board replacement. Was this the plan always? Are there any other hardware replacements planned? I ask, because I've been tentatively planning to shoot outside the country, non-stop and may not be able to be back for, what I would assume, factory installed updates.

2) The delay. Is it months or weeks of delays? Can we get a ballpark on this? It may not be relevant for people who are getting their cameras next year, but for those of us who were told we're getting it in a little over a month, there are a lot of ramifications to a delay. Do we hold off on selling our current cameras, do we hold off on purchasing non-red accessories. Clients? I understand the dates were tentative, but I would expect the company to formally address those of us most affected by delays. Is there any possibility of that?

Also, this is not related to the above, but just a humble request... Trying to keep good track of the info on this board is getting harder to do, you really have to dig for the information. You could read through a mile of postings and not come up with much valid information, mainly speculative unless it comes from Red itself. Last year, there seemed to be some newsletters to Redcore. Can we continue that and have formal newsletters & announcements emailed?

Thanks for your time. I'm very impressed with the camera, a huge supporter and plunking the deposit down last year @ NAB was one of the easiest decisions I've made.

cheers.

CJ Roy
www.cjroy.net
cj@cjroy.net
510.381.3000

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Great news, in so many ways. A brilliant move.

I know a few other people have asked this, and I know Jim said we'd have an updated schedule in a couple of weeks, but is there any chance we can get any sort of hint about likely delays sooner than that? My camera's due in October, and I'd like to shoot in November. I'd hate to have to shoot in December, because it gets too hot and stormy in Australia. If you can't say anything yet, no worries, but if you can, my day just got better.

[Poi Boy]

yes, please advice on shipping schedule as soon as you can.
Aloha
-A

[Antoine Fabi]

Jim...

stop please...
What i saw at NAB was already superb.

...can't stand the waiting...(back to work...)

Cheers!

[Steve Gibby]

I don´t mind the delay, just make sure Gibby takes his #8 to Norway (or Scandinavia at least) so we can have a close look, and get even more excited!

LOL...I'm working on that!

No firm dates yet though...

[Graeme Nattress]

Couple of questions;

So any bits beyond the LSB contribute to the signal, giving in Red's case 6x11=66dB? However, as it is quoted as >66dB does this mean you could lose information if the SNR is actually greater than 66dB?

Also, how does quantisation noise affect the image? I know how it affects audio and dithering is used to limit the apparent effect - i.e. it's still there but not as noticeable. Can you apply dithering to the sampling of image data?

...just in case I happen to be making own sensor...ahem, errr, or maybe not.
(But I'm interested anyway)

Well, 12bits gives you 72db SNR, so that's a bit of comfort room over > 66db. Going beyond that gives you no more information, but could make the noise floor look smoother, if just as noisey. However, that's something you can also do in software if you need to.

And sorry for getting so technical, but if people will ask me questions...... Just don't get me started on chromatic adaptation.....

Graeme

[Steven M. Bailey]

I'm looking forward to Shooting my first short on RED, but pre-ship upgrades seem like a reasonable delay. I don't mind the delay as I'm busy making money to pay for mine?

It don't grow on tree's

well.. not any that Ive planted so far:greedy:

[Adam C Lubkin]

Whatever controversy this generates will disappear really quick once the camera is out, and the better the camera is, the quicker the delays will be forgotten. A little delay for a nice improvement at no increase in cost sounds like a great deal to me.

[Poi Boy]

Hey Graeme. I for one love your technical answers.. don't always understand but always try to and enjoy.
Aloha
-A

[Rick Darge]

No controversy. Thank you Red team once again for being so loyal to us all. Take your time and get it right the first time. You guys go to the moon!

[michaelb]

Well, 12bits gives you 72db SNR, so that's a bit of comfort room over > 66db. Going beyond that gives you no more information, but could make the noise floor look smoother, if just as noisey. However, that's something you can also do in software if you need to.

And sorry for getting so technical, but if people will ask me questions...... Just don't get me started on chromatic adaptation.....

Graeme

Graeme,

You can let us have as much technical detail as you see fit!! I for one am very interested in the workings/decision process within the camera's design.

The pictures I have seen so far (at NAB) are fantastic but I can still see room for improvement as obviously you guys do too:)

Now on the chromatic adaption front....how are you dealing with Chromatic Aberration....no 2 lenses are the same you know:)

Maybe we need a "Graeme's Technical Thread" so we don't bore the creatives:)

Cheers

Michael

[ChristopherKenworthy]

No controversy. Thank you Red team once again for being so loyal to us all.

Agreed. If I've read everything correctly, there's not a single utterence of controversy in this thread. We're all happy to get a better camera. Even the delay isn't controversial. It's completely fine. I just wish I knew exactly what the delay is, so I can start book my cast and crew with some certainty. But Jim said we'll know in two weeks, so I can wait. It's not as though we really have to be patient with Red, because everything moves so fast, so all's well.

[Stephen Gentle]

Great news guys! How much more dynamic range will there be? One or two more stops would be really cool (what's the limit for 12bit though?)


Looks like another door opens for software to add grain in post.

Why can't you just make a Tyco Camera for the masses? ;)

BTW: Thanks for the update,

Rosco

P.S. Check out the Toyco raster and s/n ratio below

- http://www.reality.demon.co.uk/tyco.htm

- http://www.bitpress.com/tyco/fren.html

Hey cool! That was my first camera (I was like 10).

[Rick Darge]

minor delay...

Keep in mind, he said minor not major. A major delay would be 6-18 months. Minor to me, smells of 1-3 months max. These are good peeps. :construction: What a sweet business to be in right now!

[jbeale]

A 12 bit linear system can record 12 stops at most, so take that as the upper limit. (I believe that a non-linear response or more than 12 bits would mean a complete system redesign, which I didn't hear being suggested. I suspect they just found one or more parts with improved specs to plug into the existing design.) If you look at the curve that the 11.3 stop claim was based on, you will observe in the bottom left region, the lowest 1 or 2 stops of exposure have a much different slope (flatter) than the rest of the plot. This suggests it is an area of significantly increased noise. If the improved circuit has lower noise, this will give you a much more usable image in the underexposed areas, without necessarily increasing the measured dynamic range number at all. In the end, you care about what the picture looks like and the DNR number alone doesn't tell us that.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Ok maybe I'm being thick headed but my understanding was that the 12bits was just the ceiling at which you see no more improvement from 12 stops. In other words 12stops @ 14 bits is just wasting two bits to noise. That still doesn't mean you can only record a maximum of 12 stops to 12 bits correct?

[sander kamp]

Keep in mind, he said minor not major. A major delay would be 6-18 months. Minor to me, smells of 1-3 months max. These are good peeps. :construction: What a sweet business to be in right now!

I really hope we are talking about weeks here, not months...

[Poi Boy]

I'm hoping two weeks max !
-A

[Häakon]

Me too. I've got a lot of projects with RED-hungry clients this summer!

[GlennChan]

chromatic adaptation.....
For those who want to know (and the fresHDV guys can attest to have been in a conversation with Graeme about this)....

Changing your white point affects your perception of color. You can see this in CRT displays. Moving the display's white point from D65 to 9300K makes reds appear less saturated. To compensate for this, a lot of consumer CRTs will oversaturate the reds and mess with the hue.

When you white balance an image, you kind of have the flip side to this. You white balance from whatever the scene is (for outdoors scenes, this changes throughout the day and depends on cloud cover) to your target white point. Target white point for video is D65, for DCI is P3 (I think; see etconsult.com), and for film is 5400K.
*White point = the color of white. Sort of like the color temperature of a light.

Ok, so when you change the white point you can numerically change all your values so that they look the same. There are different numerical schemes for this, such as the Bradford transformation. Bruce Lindbloom's site goes into some of the color science of it:
http://brucelindbloom.com/Eqn_ChromAdapt.html
(and see the links to other pages too)

2- One of the problems with color science is that we don't understand everything... i.e. a lot of the color perception models are imperfect. I've heard a lot of good things about Fairchild's book Color Appearance Models 2nd Ed and it's probably a good reference for color science stuff.

I think that's the Coles notes version. You will be tested on this. ;)

[damonbots]

"If we deliver on time, but the product has defects, we have not delivered on time."
- Philip Crosby Let's Talk Quality, 1989

Please take the necessary time to make this a camera for the history books. I've got my reservation locked. I'm not going anywhere. Appreciate all the hard work.

[David Ronan]

For anyone who's interested, here's some footage we shot of the Final Cut Users Supermeet where the camera was shown on Matt's shoulder as well as the announcement of Professional Pocket Camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QciO6QWBbW8

Anyone interested in an LA or SF Red Users blog?

Best to all,
David

[casey warren]

Thats great! The RED team rocks.

[Don Woods]

Wow this is fantastic already beating expectations

[Sanjin Jukic]

Great. Agree with all.

[Milan Nikolic]

Good news! I hope it will not postpone too much delivery for us above 1000 reservations.

[roryhinds]

Bummed and stoked at the same time so I'm a bit confused at the moment.

Hopefully this will not delay shipping by much and "minor" is truly minor for everyone :-)

I just want to get shooting

[Bachman]

Did I hear another "sigh" in the Sony camp?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Ok maybe I'm being thick headed but my understanding was that the 12bits was just the ceiling at which you see no more improvement from 12 stops. In other words 12stops @ 14 bits is just wasting two bits to noise. That still doesn't mean you can only record a maximum of 12 stops to 12 bits correct?

Look back at Graeme's posts and try to wrap your brain around those. Hehe. It's all about signal to noise and with about 6db for each bit giving you about 72db snr in a 12bit system. Sure, you can always go non-linear or even match arbitrary scales with greater interpolation into those 12 bits, but I would think that's when things start to break or significant detail loss occurs through interpolating more values than you can represent. If you had a 14bit system and still working with the same 12 stop range, you get into the realm of oversampling, but I'm not sure if there's much to gain by doing that either.

[Don Woods]

Look back at Graeme's posts and try to wrap your brain around those. Hehe. It's all about signal to noise and with about 6db for each bit giving you about 72db snr in a 12bit system. Sure, you can always go non-linear or even match arbitrary scales with greater interpolation into those 12 bits, but I would think that's when things start to break or significant detail loss occurs through interpolating more values than you can represent. If you had a 14bit system and still working with the same 12 stop range, you get into the realm of oversampling, but I'm not sure if there's much to gain by doing that either.

That is the first post in a long time that made my head hurt. I understand what you are saying but man it was to early to read that.

[KETCH ROSSi]

If this means thath my RED's will work 100% and not 90% and 98% (for the second 2) then I can care less of a delay.

Just a chance to work some more on preproduction and script adaptetion(is this a word?).

Thanks Jim.

PS: You know I will be soon visiting you at Lake Forest, this cameras are so imporatnt to my projects that I woul like to make an event out of getting delivery of them.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Look back at Graeme's posts and try to wrap your brain around those. Hehe. It's all about signal to noise and with about 6db for each bit giving you about 72db snr in a 12bit system. Sure, you can always go non-linear or even match arbitrary scales with greater interpolation into those 12 bits, but I would think that's when things start to break or significant detail loss occurs through interpolating more values than you can represent. If you had a 14bit system and still working with the same 12 stop range, you get into the realm of oversampling, but I'm not sure if there's much to gain by doing that either.

But don't graeme's calculations assume the sensor doesn't generate any noise?

[Graeme Nattress]

No, they assume a signal input from the sensor of between 66db and 72db snr. We're quoting > 66db, so everything follows through great.

Graeme

[Corrado Silveri]

"If we deliver on time, but the product has defects, we have not delivered on time."
- Philip Crosby Let's Talk Quality, 1989

Please take the necessary time to make this a camera for the history books. I've got my reservation locked. I'm not going anywhere. Appreciate all the hard work.

Agree every single word.

I'm here. Waiting without hurry...

[Joe Vinson]

I really hope we are talking about weeks here, not months...

Sorry to say it, but considering the most recent delivery timeline only got as specific as months, I'm guessing the minimum delay is a month or more; if it were only a couple of weeks, I doubt Jim would have mentioned it.

[Häakon]

I doubt there will be a delay of multiple months since they just recently put up their anticipated delivery schedule for the world to see. At any rate, all of this back and forth is nothing but speculation until we can get some sort of official word from Red. The point of the original post was to convey that even more improvements to the system are coming, and these may delay things slightly. To avoid more confusion and/or assumptions about it, I'm going to close this topic until someone from Red is ready (at their own discretion and when they feel ready) to make an updated announcement.