Flange Depth adjustment / Back Focus

[Dave Kudrowitz]

Can anyone tell me about how RED will be collimated and proper flange focal distance will be maintained? With all these lens options and lens mount adapters in the mix, this must be a concern. Is there a simple adjustment, if any? Does the placement of the sensor adhere to a strict and precise position in every single camera? One issue with most video cameras is that it is not so precise and consistant. As a film camera technician I know the importance of this. And especially when lens mount adapters are brought into the mix, back focus mayhem. And I know how everyone loves to ask "did you check the back focus?"
So, how does RED approach this ? Will the rental house tech be able to adjust and confirm collimation?
thanks

[Stephen Williams]

Can anyone tell me about how RED will be collimated and proper flange focal distance will be maintained? With all these lens options and lens mount adapters in the mix, this must be a concern. Is there a simple adjustment, if any? Does the placement of the sensor adhere to a strict and precise position in every single camera? One issue with most video cameras is that it is not so precise and consistant. As a film camera technician I know the importance of this. And especially when lens mount adapters are brought into the mix, back focus mayhem. And I know how everyone loves to ask "did you check the back focus?"
So, how does RED approach this ? Will the rental house tech be able to adjust and confirm collimation?
thanks

Hi,

Very interesting point.

Stephen

[HD Hildebrand]

Good questions.

Speaking of flange, how will the heat within the camera effect the flange. This is a question that has been on my mind for some time, for this seems to be an issue with all the HD cameras out there like the viper, cinealta, etc.

I know there is a small fan - is it enough for the boards (and the new upgraded board)? Additionally, there seem to be vents at the bottom of the camera - how does this play when you put the camera on the dirt for low angles or sandy/desert conditions? With heat rising, and don't know if the boards are at the top, but would higher placement of vents and boards help in this situation?

[Brook Willard]

Heat should not be an issue - to my most recent knowledge, the lens mount is made of invar. I could be wrong...

[Evin Grant]

My understanding is that collimation is more important on the PL mount than the still mounts that have some amount of play anyway. Still it seems to me that this issue will be less problematic on a s35mm sensor than it has been on 2/3" prizim blocks. Ideally you should be able to collimate your PL mount using a 1080P HD-SDI monitor, a flat field lens and a test chart, no? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Stephen Williams]

My understanding is that collimation is more important on the PL mount than the still mounts that have some amount of play anyway. Still it seems to me that this issue will be less problematic on a s35mm sensor than it has been on 2/3" prizim blocks. Ideally you should be able to collimate your PL mount using a 1080P HD-SDI monitor, a flat field lens and a test chart, no? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Hi Evin,

Normally you check the infinity position on a lens, so you will need a collimator like a 'sharp max'. Only problem if it's wrong you wont know by how much so it will be a time consuming trial & error to get it right. Many people will not have the patients or skill.

Stephen

[Alex Wengert]

How were Boris and Natasha collimated for the Jackson shoot? Was everything "eye focused" (Via LCD or finder) or were the A.C.'s able to rely on tape focus?

[Drew Mylrea]

To the best of my knowledge it was tape focused. Discussed in the tape mount thread.

[Brook Willard]

You can't eye focus to 4K through a 720p EVF... in my opinion.

[edit: see my later post before getting too nervous :)]

[Evin Grant]

I don't know brook, those EVFs sure looked good enough to tell if your subjects in focus. I doubt you could track something but a static, I think you could focus F2.8+ in good light. But I'm optomistic and in puppy love with that EVF.:love:

[Steve Gibby]

You can't eye focus to 4K through a 720p EVF.

Hmmm...hopefully you're wrong. Perhaps we should wait until Graeme's Magic Focus Assist is fully unveiled, demonstrated, and field tested using the EVF and the LCD before deciding on the limititations (or lack thereof) for focusing to 4k. In reading their posts, RED Team seems to think we'll be able to readily focus at the resolutions RED One shoots using either the EVF or LCD with the Focus Assist.

I don't intend to carry a tape measure everywhere. Many of the genres of production RED is designed for are genres where it is virtually impossible to freeze the subject and have someone run over to them/it with a tape measure. In those genres, operator eye focus with the EVF or LCD, using Focus Assist will be the only possible option. Many of them are also outdoors in bright available light, at f stops from 5.6 to 11, thus DOF is medium to deep, so eye focusing is much easier.

For lowlight narrative cinema at wide open apertures, I think you have a point, eye focusing will be difficult even with a dynamic Magic Focus - but RED One will also be used in a lot of other shooting situations than that.

[Brook Willard]

Gibby and Evin, I see what you're saying. It will absolutely be eye-focusable within reason using the EVF. The EVF blew me away... it's so sharp, I love it.

But as you noted, Gibby, it won't be good for everything [namely narrative cine, my ever-present perspective]. The 720p EVF is damn sharp, it's like nothing else I've seen... but it's still 1/10th the resolution of 4K. For narrative cine, focusing by eye will be out of the question . I feel that measuring and utilizing the focus assist will be necessary.

As for my comment on the EVF, I wasn't including the focus assist in my judgement. I can't wait to see just how well it works...

I should start putting disclaimers on my posts... "narrative cinema perspective only!"

So yeah, I'd edit my post if it hadn't been quoted. I was a little harsh in saying that one couldn't focus using the EVF... one clearly can. Just not with the precision and certainty that I [i]personally am looking for out of a camera. For many of you who use your cameras in different situations... yes, the EVF [plus focus assist if you so choose] is good for focus.

Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers or freak anybody out! :)

[Steve Gibby]

Nah...I think you summed it up perfectly that time.

Gonna be fun to get these toys and put 'em in motion, eh!

:w00t:

[Evin Grant]

I think we can all agree that tape marks are the tried and true way to pull focus in narrative cinema and most of us wouldn't want it any other way. That said, it may come in handy in some instances to have the option of accurate EVF focusing. Surely it'll be possible outdoors, handheld at f5.6+ even without Graeme's magic tricks.

[Alex Wengert]

I think that everyone missed the point of my question. I wanted to know what the procedure for setting the flange depth and collimation was for the prototypes and if indeed they were able to work off of the witness marks on the lenses or if they had to rely on eye focus. Also, did the cameras maintain flange depth during the course of the shoot, or did they have to be reset depending on temperature or other factors.

[Stephen Williams]

or did they have to be reset depending on temperature or other factors.

Hi,

With a PL mounted camera there is no way to reset!

Stephen

[chuck colburn]

Hmmm...hopefully you're wrong. Perhaps we should wait until Graeme's Magic Focus Assist is fully unveiled, demonstrated, and field tested using the EVF and the LCD before deciding on the limititations (or lack thereof) for focusing to 4k. In reading their posts, RED Team seems to think we'll be able to readily focus at the resolutions RED One shoots using either the EVF or LCD with the Focus Assist.

I don't intend to carry a tape measure everywhere. Many of the genres of production RED is designed for are genres where it is virtually impossible to freeze the subject and have someone run over to them/it with a tape measure. In those genres, operator eye focus with the EVF or LCD, using Focus Assist will be the only possible option. Many of them are also outdoors in bright available light, at f stops from 5.6 to 11, thus DOF is medium to deep, so eye focusing is much easier.

For lowlight narrative cinema at wide open apertures, I think you have a point, eye focusing will be difficult even with a dynamic Magic Focus - but RED One will also be used in a lot of other shooting situations than that.

Good morning Steve,

Just a slight disagreement with your statement that it is easier to eye focus at smaller stops. The smaller the stop the more things appear in focus due to the increase in DEPTH of FIELD and the more likely that your subject is probally in the split for a given distance... but the wider the stop the subject is going to snap in and out of focus quicker due to the reduced DEPTH of FOCUS and will have a better chance of being in focus at a given distance.
Oh by the way, a guy down the road apiece is selling Redbone Coonhound puppies... now I know they may not quite compare to a Mississippi Leghound, but they sure are purrty.

Chuck

Here's a photo of one at two weeks...

http://puppydogweb.com/gallery/redbonecoonhound/redbonecoonhound_p001.jpg

[Dave Kudrowitz]

Hi,

With a PL mounted camera there is no way to reset!

Stephen

Well then I say that is a problem. One which I do not want to explain to my clients or the DOP. "It just is that way" is the last thing they want to hear.
So then the there a good chance the AC will have to re-witness mark all the cine lenses, and infinity may not be achievable, unless we re-collimate the lenses and that will require lots of trial and error and take a considerable amount of time. Or re-shim the depth of the PL mount, which will also be a trial and error procedure. Talk about a pain in the neck.

[Alex Wengert]

Hi,

With a PL mounted camera there is no way to reset!

Stephen
Absolutely there is. WE do it all of the time. When someone hangs a heavy lens that requires a support, and forgets to use the support, it can change the depth or at least render it no longer flat. You have to be able to correct that.

[Stephen Williams]

Absolutely there is. WE do it all of the time. When someone hangs a heavy lens that requires a support, and forgets to use the support, it can change the depth or at least render it no longer flat. You have to be able to correct that.

Hi,

Thats not an onset adjustment, thats for or the workshop. You are talking about a film camera with PL mounts, or some other device?

Stephen

[Steve Gibby]

Good morning Steve,

Just a slight disagreement with your statement that it is easier to eye focus at smaller stops. The smaller the stop the more things appear in focus due to the increase in DEPTH of FIELD and the more likely that your subject is probally in the split for a given distance... but the wider the stop the subject is going to snap in and out of focus quicker due to the reduced DEPTH of FOCUS and will have a better chance of being in focus at a given distance.
Oh by the way, a guy down the road apiece is selling Redbone Coonhound puppies... now I know they may not quite compare to a Mississippi Leghound, but they sure are purrty.

Chuck

Here's a photo of one at two weeks...

http://puppydogweb.com/gallery/redbonecoonhound/redbonecoonhound_p001.jpg

Hey Chuck,

You raise a good point - one that I'm aware of. The X factor in the mix with RED One will be how effective the Magic Focus is in defining what is and isn't out of focus, and the gradients of focus in the transition zone. Knowing how thorough Graeme is, I expect it to work really well.

Awesome looking puppy! If I wasn't so mobile right now I'd have a couple of dogs for sure...

[Alex Wengert]

Hi,

Thats not an onset adjustment, thats for or the workshop. You are talking about a film camera with PL mounts, or some other device?

Stephen

Am talking about film cameras. Yes, in shop adjustment. As for RED specific set up on the prototypes I was hoping for an answer from someone on the Red Team.

[Stephen Williams]

Am talking about film cameras. Yes, in shop adjustment. As for RED specific set up on the prototypes I was hoping for an answer from someone on the Red Team.

Hi,

So resetting during the day, as the temperature change is hardly an option then!

Stephen

[Dave Kudrowitz]

Am talking about film cameras. Yes, in shop adjustment. As for RED specific set up on the prototypes I was hoping for an answer from someone on the Red Team.

Yes an answer from the Red team is what i was hoping for too.

[Stephen Williams]

Yes an answer from the Red team is what i was hoping for too.

Hi,

In reality untill there have been several thousand hours in the field, they won't be sure either! It's a question I have asked before.

Stephen

[chuck colburn]

Hey Chuck,

You raise a good point - one that I'm aware of. The X factor in the mix with RED One will be how effective the Magic Focus is in defining what is and isn't out of focus, and the gradients of focus in the transition zone. Knowing how thorough Graeme is, I expect it to work really well.

Awesome looking puppy! If I wasn't so mobile right now I'd have a couple of dogs for sure...

If RED trusts their auto-focus, I would think they are on to something. If it works without hunting to much at low light levels and can handle low contrast scenes it is going to kick ass. I'm just kinda old school. Hell I don't even trust electronic micrometers yet! lol

[Steve Gibby]

Actually it's not "auto" but rather a manual focus assist. Oh yeah, if it works well, it will make shooting easier in a lot of situations. Lookin' forward to checkin' it out...

I'm "old school" enough to surf and skateboard on longboards, so "old school" is cool with me!

[Brook Willard]

I can't wait to see the focus assist either... this stuff is going to be so much fun when we get to play with it... :)

As for speculation on the lens mount and such... this is how nasty rumors start! It's probably best if we just wait for the RED team to speak for themselves... even if it doesn't happen immediately. A little speculation here... a little commentary there... suddenly everybody might think there's an issue that we have no reason to suspect exists! I'm sure they'll let us know what we need to know when it's time to... :)

[Stephen Williams]

As for speculation on the lens mount and such... this is how nasty rumors start! It's probably best if we just wait for the RED team to speak for themselves...

Hi Brook,

With all due respect Jim answered the question many months ago on another site.

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

Apologies, Stephen... I didn't realize that [don't frequent other sites]. I just like to err on the side of safety. :) I'd love to read the link if you have it...

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi guys,

It seems to me that the whole topic is avoided/ too specific/ not relevant enough for being answered. I have asked before about back focus adjustment and am sorry to say I didn't get a satisfying answer yet.

1. - avoided - because the myth of a "shooter- owner" who can go with his "4K-indie" straight to the big screen might get a reality check on this one.
The need for collimation (sending parallel light into a lens/&/or camera) is inherently connected with the factor of enlargement. If you wish to reproduce a picture of 24mm width to a 60 foot screen you need to reduce tolerances within your system to 1/500 - 1/1000 of a millimeter.

Since most S-16 is shot for TV this is far less critical - you usually get away with tolerance of more than 1/100 milimeter. I know a good few rentals who don't have expensive collimators (including our own company) and their customers don't mind since they never get to see the actual "tolerance" as soft image on a screen.

In order to ensure that "tolerances" don't show up when enlarged two things are necessary: bring each bodies mount to its precise focal flange distance ( in case of PL this means 52,000 mm) and make each lens actually bundle light on the focal plane (the chip) by checking its "back focus". ( for all the video guys - you always had it easy - in most video cameras that I know (few) you simply move the prism on a micro spindle and adjust back focus to a monitor - the actual resolution can be judged - done!)

2. - to specific - This is camera tech stuff and needs a lot of experience since focal lenght plays a big role as well.
Its not so difficult to find out whether your back focus is ok -
- check close focus by messure and compare to scale.
If for producing a sharp image you have to underpull the actual distance compared to scale your system (lens &/or camera) is to short, if you overpull scale to actual distance you are to long.

I don't want to scare nobody - to make a well build lens or camera move more than 1/100mm needs something to happen ( hard drop/ long travel vibration unprotected/ extreme climatic changes / long time no check etc). So this is not panic stuff. It is a matter of the format you are working for.

3. - not relevant enough - Well, the rental houses (or rather their techs) equipping theatrical releases know exactly what I am on about. So for them this is nothing new - buisness as usual.
But if we "little" people/ companies that are now "empowered" are planning on shooting a movie that should be screened in theaters ( film or digital) you wanna make damn shure that you check your backfocus appropriately. This means - again - usually projection. ( Just like done on EVERY camera test in a lab when renting 35mm gear)

What I find interesting are these questions :
- How can we find out whether the fecking thing is too long or too short if we dont have a 4K projector/ monitor or some kind of Pixel to Pixel device that gives us insight into the actual resolution performance of a lens/camera combo? ( surely no 720p Monitor - I promise - and our 30" Apple Monitors wont do either I am afraid). We dont even have a lab in Ireland - neither 4k projectors nor 4K monitors. So to me it seems you would need to get a Collimator for such purposes - just got a quote for a second hand set 25K Euro! We will have to equip a lot of films to get that kind of money back.

- How do I messure a Red since sticking a cheap and simple distance gauge into the PL mount will not please the chip. (In film cameras a special metal plate is inserted into the gate for this purpose) Field or pocket collimators are only good for telling you whether you are on the spot. They don't tell you how far you are off - which can make an adjustment a time consuming trial and error procedure.

Would please someone answer this who really knows?

Regards
Volker

[garageman]

This is definitely a vital question, maybe someone at RED can tell us how they collimated their lenses to their cameras and whether it's something we can, in reality, do ourselves?

[Evin Grant]

If you switched to the 1080 windowed mode and used a 1080P monitor from the HD-SDI wouldn't that be a pixel to pixel reference for checking backfocus?

[Alexander Black]

Excellent point, should be. Would be cool to be able to window out part of the 4k signal to HDSDI for pixel-for-pixel analysis, also.

[Stephen Williams]

If you switched to the 1080 windowed mode and used a 1080P monitor from the HD-SDI wouldn't that be a pixel to pixel reference for checking backfocus?

Hi Evin,

With the lenses set at infinity & with a colimator that produces a perfectly sharp image @ infinity, then Yes. If there is a problem, then only trial & error with shims will fix it.

Stephen

[dalemccready]

Perhaps there needs to be a new depth gauge made that doesn't use pressure on a film plane but a laser measurement for checking the depth to the sensor?

[betty schaefer]

that still doesn't explain if and how the sensor can be moved by 1/1000mm steps

i'm not complaining..i just wonder

[Volker Ehlers]

...or the Pl mount adjusted to sensor plane...

laser gauge would be cool...

Still no answer from the big boys...:waaa:

[Rainer Fritz]

jim or jannard... do you have an answer please ??

[Steve Gibby]

Hmmm.. just could be that the RED staff is busy finishing development on a camera system. Ya think?

RED has shown throughout the development process that they have/are listening to us. They've also demonstrated that they are aware of the range of tech details of building such a camera system. They're obviously aware of flange depth adjustment and back focus requirements for their camera system.

If they don't answer everyone immediately, at your beckon call, don't assume that they aren't listening, or that you've succeeded in enlightening them on some key issue that their brilliant development staff has somehow overlooked. Truth be known, they have and are listening, they have consistently addressed and resolved tech issues throughout this development process, and IMO they have the issues raised in this thread well in hand.

They'll answer when they get a chance. They're quite thorough...

[tj williams]

Since no one fm Red has chimed in here is the little I know:

I asked at the booth about the process of changing mounts. "Stuart" (If memory serves) told me that there were spacers which were left in place when the new mount was applied. Since the final red body is a casting and not therefore as accurate as a machined parts (like the mounts) then inmho each body will be shimmed in advance for proper flange depth. The machined mounts will all be .001 which is about best cad tolerance. This is not unlike how film camera bodies are built.

Hi Gibby. Although it is strange that they have time to answer, for many not.so.useful.threads. I'd think with 1500 folks watching this thread and the attitude of "they'll never build it" which is out there. they would move to reassure up front that they of course have thought about this and solved the problem in their production sequence.

Above is just my guess based on partial information. It would be very interesting to know exactly how the problem of exact mount/sensor geometry is resolved in the RED?

[Steve Gibby]

TJ,

The points of my post were:

A) IMO RED is aware of the tech issues regarding flange depth adjustment and back focus

B) IMO they'll answer when they get a chance

BTW - missed you at NAB. That would have been a good chance to meet.

[HD Hildebrand]

I'm sure they will want to get all the answers straight before responding to this one... and understandibly so, for the flange is the Achilles' heel of every single one of the major cameras out there.

[Finner]

I went through the mount swap system at NAB with Stuart as I was skeptical of the idea that users could do it. The way Stuart showed me how its done was genius. You actually do not take off the mount as each mount itself is collomated and set in the factory right on a round "block" built to suit that mounts specific distance to the sensor and the "block" has quite a large flat surface and attatches directly to a large flat front surface of the camera. So in theory if both the mount block surface and the camera surface are perfectly clean all you would have to do is attatch them both together with bolts. I mentioned a small torque wrench with presise tightning values would be nice to have with the set up. This also made a lot more sense to me as to why the mount was $500.

[Michael Schrengohst]

jim or jannard... do you have an answer please ??

Isn't Jim in Prague, Czech Republic?
Just a 4 hour car trip from Vienna.

[Martin Drew]

I have generally found if a question is asked and no one from the Red team responds it is because it is something they have decided they don't want to answer right at the moment. That doesn't mean they don't know the answer, quite the opposite, it is probably something they are currently working on and they want to nail it before getting drawn into a discussion.

I think this particular issue has been brought up in one form or another so many times that there is no way it is going to be ignored. I suspect there is going to be a very elegant solution but they won't go public until it is totally sorted.

M

[Stephen Williams]

I went through the mount swap system at NAB with Stuart as I was skeptical of the idea that users could do it. The way Stuart showed me how its done was genius. You actually do not take off the mount as each mount itself is collomated and set in the factory right on a round "block" built to suit that mounts specific distance to the sensor and the "block" has quite a large flat surface and attatches directly to a large flat front surface of the camera. So in theory if both the mount block surface and the camera surface are perfectly clean all you would have to do is attatch them both together with bolts. I mentioned a small torque wrench with presise tightning values would be nice to have with the set up. This also made a lot more sense to me as to why the mount was $500.

Hi Finner,

That is the soloution Doug Fries used for the last 30 years with his Mitchell conversions. Still should use a depth gauge IMHO.

Stephen

[Finner]

Stephen I was unaware this was the mitchell conversion system. I know what you are saying about a depth gauge but I see this system being able to get it right most every time if a person is extremely careful and cleans both surfaces well with alcohol before hand.

[Illya Friedman]

Hi guys,

It seems to me that the whole topic is avoided/ too specific/ not relevant enough for being answered. I have asked before about back focus adjustment and am sorry to say I didn't get a satisfying answer yet.

1. - avoided - because the myth of a "shooter- owner" who can go with his "4K-indie" straight to the big screen might get a reality check on this one.
The need for collimation (sending parallel light into a lens/&/or camera) is inherently connected with the factor of enlargement. If you wish to reproduce a picture of 24mm width to a 60 foot screen you need to reduce tolerances within your system to 1/500 - 1/1000 of a millimeter.

Since most S-16 is shot for TV this is far less critical - you usually get away with tolerance of more than 1/100 milimeter. I know a good few rentals who don't have expensive collimators (including our own company) and their customers don't mind since they never get to see the actual "tolerance" as soft image on a screen.

In order to ensure that "tolerances" don't show up when enlarged two things are necessary: bring each bodies mount to its precise focal flange distance ( in case of PL this means 52,000 mm) and make each lens actually bundle light on the focal plane (the chip) by checking its "back focus". ( for all the video guys - you always had it easy - in most video cameras that I know (few) you simply move the prism on a micro spindle and adjust back focus to a monitor - the actual resolution can be judged - done!)

2. - to specific - This is camera tech stuff and needs a lot of experience since focal lenght plays a big role as well.
Its not so difficult to find out whether your back focus is ok -
- check close focus by messure and compare to scale.
If for producing a sharp image you have to underpull the actual distance compared to scale your system (lens &/or camera) is to short, if you overpull scale to actual distance you are to long.

I don't want to scare nobody - to make a well build lens or camera move more than 1/100mm needs something to happen ( hard drop/ long travel vibration unprotected/ extreme climatic changes / long time no check etc). So this is not panic stuff. It is a matter of the format you are working for.

3. - not relevant enough - Well, the rental houses (or rather their techs) equipping theatrical releases know exactly what I am on about. So for them this is nothing new - buisness as usual.
But if we "little" people/ companies that are now "empowered" are planning on shooting a movie that should be screened in theaters ( film or digital) you wanna make damn shure that you check your backfocus appropriately. This means - again - usually projection. ( Just like done on EVERY camera test in a lab when renting 35mm gear)

What I find interesting are these questions :
- How can we find out whether the fecking thing is too long or too short if we dont have a 4K projector/ monitor or some kind of Pixel to Pixel device that gives us insight into the actual resolution performance of a lens/camera combo? ( surely no 720p Monitor - I promise - and our 30" Apple Monitors wont do either I am afraid). We dont even have a lab in Ireland - neither 4k projectors nor 4K monitors. So to me it seems you would need to get a Collimator for such purposes - just got a quote for a second hand set 25K Euro! We will have to equip a lot of films to get that kind of money back.

- How do I messure a Red since sticking a cheap and simple distance gauge into the PL mount will not please the chip. (In film cameras a special metal plate is inserted into the gate for this purpose) Field or pocket collimators are only good for telling you whether you are on the spot. They don't tell you how far you are off - which can make an adjustment a time consuming trial and error procedure.

Would please someone answer this who really knows?

Regards
Volker

What a great post Volker!

It should be REQUIRED reading for anyone planning on purchasing a camera with a PL mount.

Here's a story of learning this lesson the hard way, a long time ago... 3x days of shooting my student film were ruined because 2 corners of the camera mount was ever so slightly too tight, it was enought to create a split focal plane. The film school didn't check the camera after the last person shot with it, and didn't do any service until after someone reported a problem... My guess is it's still this way some places. The tolerances of the mount were close enough that it was only an issue at stops wider than T4/5.6 (which for me was everything, shooting WFO). Images were almost fine after telecine, but split soft/sharp when projected on the big screen.

If you're planning on renting a personally owned camera with a shimmed lens mount (e.g. PL) to anyone other than yourself, you ought to understand how to collimate, or plan on paying for the service to be done before every professional job.

On the flip side... If you plan on renting a PL mount camera from any video/hd rental house that isn't set up for REAL cine lens technical service (mating cameras to lenses without a user backfocus adjustment), I'm sorry to report you're rolling the dice. :shiftyph34r:

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
(glad to say we solved this problem long ago)

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi Illja,

I woudn't think the Red team has actually technical issues with flange design or anything along those lines. I trust them fully to come up with a professional solution.

I only wonder about the need for optical collimation since a mechanical gauge is out of question. It's simply new to me and not RED specific but chip related.

How do you guys do it? Do have any device to check a bodies focal flange except an optical collimator?

Faithfully
Volker

[Illya Friedman]

I woudn't think the Red team has actually technical issues with flange design or anything along those lines. I trust them fully to come up with a professional solution.


I do too. I've done flange collimation on Arri equipment and it's an exacting operation. I don't know if the Red plan is equally easy?

At NAB I asked what I thought were a couple benign questions to the Red team and the response was "Magical Keebler Elves." it was very cute, and my hat's off to the wit and levity.

I truly don't mind that they chose not to answer (and understand completely), patience is all that's required. I'm sure the answers to all question are coming very soon.

I.

[roryhinds]

It seems we are all waiting on a lot of answers from the RED team.

So important questions remain unanswered by RED and at the moment all we have to go on are guesses.

[Mike the beginner]

It seems we are all waiting on a lot of answers from the RED team.

So important questions remain unanswered by RED and at the moment all we have to go on are guesses.


Your dead right Rory too many questions and very few answers.

It may well be that red team had to go into overdrive just to get a working camera for PJ and also for NAB.

With NAB out of the way they are probably too busy getting all the other little items put together to make the red one complete and ready for shipping. This has been a tall order for red team to complete given the very short timescale from start to completion.

If we press them for answers they dont get the work done. On the other hand we are all wondering has the camera got this, can it do that, and so forth. Real major concerns effecting many reservation holders such as changing mounts yourself? yes or no. Red motor and still lenses, will the focusing still be a real concern with still lenses using the birger/red motor set-up. The red rails, how heavy, Can you put the red rails on a tripod with camera and just snap release off tripod to go shoulder mount instantly?

Recording, do we have pre-record, We now have hybrid dual combinations of hard drive/flash drives out this year. Will red drive incorporate flash drive and allow a buffer record (pre-record) or short bursts of faster frames? I could go on and on and me a beginner:blink:

I think Jim Jannard does not want to release the red one until they have as many bases covered as possible. Workflow must be a huge concern to them considering that Sony seems to have a proven workflow all working reasonable well (but expensive) and will be used against red if red workflow has major (and probably minor) flaws.

Maybe we are all frustrated and excited combined and only time will cure this!

Mike the beginner