Importing into the EEC

[Stephen Williams]

Hi all,

On another board this question was asked "does Red need to pass any tests to be imported new into the EEC". I assumed not as Red does not sell in the EEC, however I have no idea if that is correct.

A assume there could be a difference between new & used.

Many thanks,

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

Never had trouble to bring anything to EEC as long as it was purchased outside of EEC and it was not on the list of controlled substances:-)
Selling it there in the store (excludes internet sale from abroad) is a whole the other ball game.

[Stephen Williams]

Never had trouble to bring anything to EEC as long as it was purchased outside of EEC and it was not on the list of controlled substances:-)
Selling it there in the store (excludes internet sale from abroad) is a whole the other ball game.

Hi Andrew,

Was that a personal import, or an import for use in a business?

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

It was for in business not resale use.

As long as it is not for resale they will not stop it at the border.
I can imagine that selling the electrical devices without CE mark on it will get you in to the trouble.
The way around it, is to build your equipment powered by 24V or less an then to use CE approved little black box to plug it to the wall outlet on one side and to the camera or camera charger on the other side. We were doing it with multi channel audio mixers. We took power supply out of the mixer and use low voltage only on it. Then we bought CE approved in line voltage converter/power supply to power the whole audio mixer from it.
Two separate devices, one low voltage second locally approved.

http://www.cetest.nl/european_new_approach_directives.htm

Approval process is not a big problem ether if handled by the local consulting company.
They have experience how to do it fast and without the pain.

[Stephen Williams]

It was for in business not resale use.

As long as it is not for resale they will not stop it at the border.
I can imagine that selling the electrical devices without CE mark on it will get you in to the trouble.
The way around it, is to build your equipment powered by 24V or less an then to use CE approved little black box to plug it to the wall outlet on one side and to the camera or camera charger on the other side. We were doing it with multi channel audio mixers. We took power supply out of the mixer and use low voltage only on it. Then we bought CE approved in line voltage converter/power supply to power the whole audio mixer from it.
Two separate devices, one low voltage second locally approved.

http://www.cetest.nl/european_new_approach_directives.htm

Approval process is not a big problem ether if handled by the local consulting company.
They have experience how to do it fast and without the pain.


Hi Anderw,

I know Clive Tobin will no longer sell his products to the EEC because he uses lead solder!

Stephen

[Jonas Nyström]

Sorry, I don't quite follow. What's the problem? If imported with any forwarders as UPS, FedEx you will have to pay local tax, but apart from that I don't think they will have any concerns. If you go to to RED and pick it up yourself I think it's your conscious which decide how much you will tell the custom. After all it's only (sorry) a camera!

[Andrew M.]

He should sell it over the internet and let people import it individually.

[Andrew M.]

Sorry, I don't quite follow. What's the problem? If imported with any forwarders as UPS, FedEx you will have to pay local tax, but apart from that I don't think they will have any concerns. If you go to to RED and pick it up yourself I think it's your conscious which decide how much you will tell the custom. After all it's only (sorry) a camera!

No retail store or distributor will take more then 24V powered electrical equipment for resale if it is not CE approved in Europe or UL in US or CSA in Canada and so on.
Individual import in business and even rental (if you have good insurance) should not have any problem.
Again, RED charger could be approved in no time and the rest is low voltage.

[Stephen Williams]

Sorry, I don't quite follow. What's the problem? If imported with any forwarders as UPS, FedEx you will have to pay local tax, but apart from that I don't think they will have any concerns. If you go to to RED and pick it up yourself I think it's your conscious which decide how much you will tell the custom. After all it's only (sorry) a camera!

Hi,

Well if the customs seized the goods, then it could be a problem for the person who paid for them. Also I know the UK has some very complicated health & safety rules, was not much of an issue 15 years ago, but now?

I am assuming there is some case law on the subject.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

No retail store or distributor will take more then 24V powered electrical equipment for resale if it is not CE approved in Europe or UL in US or CSA in Canada and so on.
Individual import in business and even rental (if you have good insurance) should not have any problem.
Again, RED charger could be approved in no time and the rest is low voltage.

Hi Andrew,

Clive used to sell on Ebay, but stopped as he could not afford to comply with the directives.

I am fairly sure the RED charger is already approved, I have seen a very similar device on sale locally!

Stephen

[Jonas Nyström]

Are we talking importing for resale, or importing one or two cameras for your own use?

[Stephen Williams]

Are we talking importing for resale, or importing one or two cameras for your own use?

Hi,

Many of the purchasers are companies, so 'For Personal Use Only' rules probably don't apply. A number of private purchasers may want to rent out there cameras to others.

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

Hi Andrew,

Clive used to sell on Ebay, but stopped as he could not afford to comply with the directives.

I am fairly sure the RED charger is already approved, I have seen a very similar device on sale locally!

Stephen


Stephen, I wonder where he got the problem since customs is not very good in checking the UL or CSA stickers on the products. How the heck they know if they are not resellers that the gizmo is low or high voltage? It is the seller responsibility to make sure that he is reselling approved product?

[Jonas Nyström]

Hi,

Many of the purchasers are companies, so 'For Personal Use Only' rules probably don't apply. A number of private purchasers may want to rent out there cameras to others.

Stephen

For your own company as a DoP I think personal use will apply (almost shure for Sweden). I don't know regulations for rentals and resale. Anyway I have brought loads of gear across US/Swedish borders, they (the custom) has never, not even once, had any interest in any of my cameras (more then make shure it's not a bomb).

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen, I wonder where he got the problem since customs is not very good in checking the UL or CSA stickers on the products. How the heck they know if they are not resellers that the gizmo is low or high voltage? It is the seller responsibility to make sure that he is reselling approved product?

Hi Andrew,

Is a required declaration of compliance required with the export documentation? I know when the value exceeds $2500 exports from the USA are more complicated and for EEC imports 5000 euro is the magic no.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

. Anyway I have brought loads of gear across US/Swedish borders, they (the custom) has never, not even once, had any interest in any of my cameras (more then make shure it's not a bomb).

Hi,

That's a personal import! Much less paperwork. Remember if you collect your Red in person sales tax would be payable.

Stephen

[Jonas Nyström]

Hi Andrew,

Is a required declaration of compliance required with the export documentation? I know when the value exceeds $2500 exports from the USA are more complicated and for EEC imports 5000 euro is the magic no.

Stephen

Bring the order in parts! How much is the sales tax in CA?

[garageman]

I'd be more concerned about them applying a tax that doesn't destroy my wallet.

[Jonas Nyström]

I'd be more concerned about them applying a tax that doesn't destroy my wallet.

HA HA HA :biggrin: Good one, I agree! But anyway, sales tax in REDland, taxes anyone?

[Vincent Rice]

There is a whole raft of safety and pollution legislation that must be complied with to sell electrical equipment in Europe. I am sure RED are fully aware of this.

[Stephen Williams]

I'd be more concerned about them applying a tax that doesn't destroy my wallet.

Hi,

Well lets hope it does not qualify as a 'Broadcast Quality' video camera then! There is a 40% anti dumping tax to protect EU makers of such products!

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

I am not in Canada now but I think it is 6% for Federal tax.
Virginia will not charge any tax on the product from other State.

Again, only charger is the issue here and it takes 5 hours of your time and max 5K for consultant to do the UL on charger if you use local consultant to do it for you.

IMHO since it is not telecom equipment no radio interferance test required.

[Jonas Nyström]

Hi,

Well lets hope it does not qualify as a 'Broadcast Quality' video camera then! There is a 40% anti dumping tax to protect EU makers of such products!

Stephen

Now I'm worried!

[Andrew M.]

Now I'm worried!

And how much are taxes on "do it yourself" electronic kit?

[Jonas Nyström]

Good point!

[Stephen Williams]

And how much are taxes on "do it yourself" electronic kit?

Hi Andrew,

Bear in mind, if you falsely declare an item it is liable for confiscation, in addition you may be arrested & prosecuted. That will make entry into the USA an issue.

Stephen

[Jonas Nyström]

I think i will go over and pick up my gear myself (if possible). I don't think it will be a problem to bring it.

[Stephen Williams]

I think i will go over and pick up my gear myself (if possible). I don't think it will be a problem to bring it.

Hi,

I think you are right!

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

Hi Andrew,

Bear in mind, if you falsely declare an item it is liable for confiscation, in addition you may be arrested & prosecuted. That will make entry into the USA an issue.

Stephen

US is not a problem since it is shipped from US.
To sell it in US you need whatever required for camera and electrical devices (charger) and it is not a big deal, done it in the past. I have some experience in this in Europe and it sometimes could be the pain there, but as I said we found elegant way around it that everybody was happy with.

RED has to fill out export papers and proof of compliance and origin and whatever when shipping to Europe and this have to be done according to European requirements.
Here you can’t push the envelope, no body does. It is not only Europe but Russia and South Africa and so on. You hire shipping consultant that knows all about it and he has access to specialist for each country or zone. If you get the problem then you have to come and pick RED up yourself. Most businesses have experience with international shipping. We use Fedex Trade Network brokers and they are top guns in this game.
Never had a case that they would not figure out how to ship/bring something in the “efficient” way. Who is good in Europe in it? DHL?

[Stephen Williams]

US is not a problem since it is shipped from US.


Hi Andrew,

If you get arrested, a non USA resident will have problems getting a visa & are not elligable under the visa exemption programme.

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

Hi Andrew,

If you get arrested, a non USA resident will have problems getting a visa & are not elligable under the visa exemption programme.

Stephen
It is a question or the answer?
I am US Citizen, and I am using top consultants when I ship the equipment.
In US if you act under advice of top consultants or lawyers and you prove that you did all in your power to comply with the law, it is not much they can do to the individual in such a case. In US they don’t care if my equipment does comply with European Electrical standard and my European consultant did advise us to split the high voltage from low voltage components to make approval easy. So I don’t see any problem here.

US will not arrest you that you want to take RED out of the country to Europe even if the equipment may not comply with all electrical approval there.

Stephen, I don’t know where are you located but the best is if you call a good import broker and you talk to him what can be done so you will not be arrested for bringing RED through the border:-)

[Jonas Nyström]

Well, I may be naive, but I don't think you have to be to worry to end up behind bars for bringing a camera. For me it's more about tax...

[Stephen Williams]

Well, I may be naive, but I don't think you have to be to worry to end up behind bars for bringing a camera. For me it's more about tax...

Hi,

In many (not all) jurisdictions tax & customs duty evasion is a criminal offence, the amount of tax & duties involved are not small change.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

It is a question or the answer?
I am US Citizen,

Hi Andrew,

I was just pointing out a problem that could occur to an EU citizen importing a camera to the EEC, who then wished to travel in the USA.

Clearly it does not apply in your case.

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

Stephen, we are talking about European Electrical approval here and compliance with the approval. Where did you take this Tax and Duties from?
Also in US you do not pay outgoing tax or duties that I know off.

Yes, picking it up yourself from RED and taking it back to Europe will be the best options for people that are wary about the process.
You can also wait and get feedback from RED or other people, what was done or should be done once the shipment to Europe will start.

[Andrew M.]

Hi Andrew,

I was just pointing out a problem that could occur to an EU citizen importing a camera to the EEC, who then wished to travel in the USA.

Clearly it does not apply in your case.

Stephen

When EU Citizen will take camera in some non compliant way and bring it to his country US will not even know or care what commercial regulations he didn’t comply with.
He will not have any trouble to travel back to US or have any problem with visa even if he didn’t pay any taxes in his country of origin. However I presume the tax guys in his country will be on his case hunting him down:-)

[Jonas Nyström]

Hi,

In many (not all) jurisdictions tax & customs duty evasion is a criminal offence, the amount of tax & duties involved are not small change.

Stephen

Come on - of course it is a criminal offfense

but

If you on your outgoing bring som gear for a gig in LA, and on your return add up some more gear, what is the risk to get f**ked up in the custom. None. As said before, on my trips (many), no one never shown any interest in me lovely cameras.

I think the hardest task is to get the Red on board as carry on...

[Stephen Williams]

He will not have any trouble to travel back to US or have any problem with visa even if he didn’t pay any taxes in his country of origin. However I presume the tax guys in his country will be on his case hunting him down:-)

Hi Andrew,

When an alien enters the USA a form has to be filled in, which has a number of questions:-

Have you EVER been arrested, even if no charges were brought...

Have you ever been convicted of a felony.

I have a feeling how those questions are answered could effect your chances of gaining entry.

The taxes issue & how to declare the camera came up earlier in this thread, I think the 2 issues could to be addressed at the time of import.

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

Don’t you have a free duties taxes exemption for few hundred dollars when you stay one or two weeks away from your countries?
I used to travel a lot between Canada and US and both countries have $$$ exemption on items brought back. I guess if you put your RED apart in too its primal components and go to visit your aunt very often you can bring the whole piece legally and compliantly back home? Seriously though, call DHL and ask them what will be the duties on professional digital camera.
http://www.dhl.co.uk/publish/gb/en.high.html

[Kevin Halverson]

As a manufacturer we sell a great percentage of our products into the EU and yes, a CE mark is required for a product to be imported for resale. Products imported for personal use (which a business use that excludes resale is classified as) are not required to have CE markings.

Getting a CE mark is tedious, this is not an overly difficult process to navigate, but there are costs involved (time and monetary). There are other issues such as compliance with the ROHS directive that have an impact on a number of manufacturing processes.

[Andrew M.]

Hi Andrew,

When an alien enters the USA a form has to be filled in, which has a number of questions:-

Have you EVER been arrested, even if no charges were brought...

Have you ever been convicted of a felony.

I have a feeling how those questions are answered could effect your chances of gaining entry.

The taxes issue & how to declare the camera came up earlier in this thread, I think the 2 issues could to be addressed at the time of import.

Stephen

You have a point here, didn’t think about it this way.

However remember in many countries, duties or tax non payment is not a criminal law.
Example is Canada. As oppose to US they do not put you in jail for tax non payment.