Is your F900, Varicam, etc. sitting on the shelf?

[Phil Bates]

I don't know about you, but since I've gone Red, my fairly new F900R hasn't left the shelf. I am uncomfortable letting $150K of gear just depreciate rapidly before my eyes, but not sure what to do about it. I know it has ENG capabilities that may give it a slight advantage to the Red in some cases, so I am still holding on to it.

Anyone else in the same boat? What are you doing with your old camera? Is there much resale value left?

Phil
http://www.artbeats.com

[Rob Gardner]

We just sold our HDX900, but we are keeping our Varicam. Since we got the Red in September, we have shot about 30 days with it, with no problems at all. I am putting in an order this week for another Red body. We are waiting to hear about the Epic, and we will then make our decision about trading up one of our bodies for the new camera. I doubt we will sell the Varicam, because there will always be some jobs that are just better suited to that camera, but I expect the Red system will be our main production camera. I would add, however, that we have two projects in post production (as 1080 prores projects) but we have not taken either of them through to completion. So post production is still a work in progress. So far, no big issues (knock wood).
Rob Gardner

[Leo Ticheli]

We sold one of our two VariCams not long after receiving our Red, but the other one is still earning its keep on some long-form, small-crew work.

I won't try to estimate the market value of the remaining VariCam, but am confident it's worth more to me than whatever we might realize from selling it.

VariCam still makes very beautiful pictures and I often make use of the variable frame rates. Of course the biggest advantage VariCam offers over Red is the straightforward post workflow. While we encounter no deal-breaking problems posting our Red footage, it is undeniably more time consuming to post the R3D files.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[NateWeaver]

There's a Varicam body on Ebay right now for $12.5. I didn't think it would go so low so quickly...but I realize he may be trying to get it gone quick.

As I owned my full size XDCAM HD as a tool to do the same work as I do with the Red, I decided I better get rid of it quick. If I had more ENG work (I had a tiny bit), I wouldn't have been so eager.

As a side note, for the doc work I do (not really ENG), I've learned the EX1 is a better tool than the full size XDCAM was.

[Phil Bates]

...As a side note, for the doc work I do (not really ENG), I've learned the EX1 is a better tool than the full size XDCAM was.

Thanks for the response. Yes, we have an EX1 so I just grab that whenever I need something quick.

P

http://www.artbeats.com

[Noah Kadner]

We have a VariCam that still goes out reasonably often but it's different strokes for different folks. RED goes out a lot but so do smaller cameras like the HVX200.

Still it's hard not to see the writing on the wall- maybe sell or at least add your camera into a rental shop's pool. Abel Cine in NYC for example might be able to help you with this.

Noah

[Tom Lowe]

I would try to sell that F900R FAST. Even something like the EX3 I would probably try to unload in the next couple of months, unless you're keeping it busy. Technology is moving at breakneck speed right now.

On the stills side, I notice a lot of 1Ds Mark II and even Mark III guys are tying to unload their bodies in a serious hurry right now before the 5D Mark II hits.

[GlennChan]

I see Rubber Monkey's ads on Gmail / adsense trying to sell their Viper. You might just try copying their route... target CML, cinematography.net, etc. Then again, their ads are still running so they probably didn't manage to find a buyer yet.
From their website, it looks like they rent Red, Viper, and Arri 435.

You might also try mailing lists or forums... maybe somebody would love to take a few percent commission if you do sell. (Because 4% of $100,000 would be $4k... heck, that would most likely pay for a CML sponsorship.)

I don't know the economics of selling so take this with a little grain of salt.

2- There's a lot of different niches out there... perhaps there are live production folks who would find a F900R useful.


There's a Varicam body on Ebay right now for $12.5. I didn't think it would go so low so quickly...but I realize he may be trying to get it gone quick.

Hopefully it isn't stolen or a scam. :/ eBay can be sketchy like that.

---

As far as how technology moves, it seems like certain things are starting to move at the pace of Moore's Law.
A lot of things are based off of computer technology and things will depreciate at that rate. If you bought an eCinema DCM23 for example, it retailed at $17.5k-ish and you can get a monitor of roughly the same quality for $4k now.

You also have companies like Red and Apple being very aggressive on pricing and making that up on volume / taking advantage of economies of scale. (And arguably Canon and Panasonic are somewhat aggressive too.)

But then again:
(A) I could be wrong about the long term picture.
(B) In the short term, there is stuff out there that is grossly mispriced like Sony's BVM-L monitors. You might be able to sell your camera at a great price in the meantime. Apparently digital betacam prices are still fairly high.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Good times.

Well sort of... :)

Cause technology really gallops... I don't know what to think...

[Paul Hazlett]

technology moves as fast as your clients want it to. I am still using Betacam SP on regular basis although the HDX900 is going out the most. People are slow on the tech update here.

I am also just a freelancer and not a company so I am not setting the format i need to shoot on. I can only suggest and it usually depends on who is editing.

[Paul Lee]

Yea, Beta SP is still kickin'. We just had a client hire us to do a PAL BetaSP shoot here in the states for a European company. Yuck!

[Hans von Sonntag]

F900Rs are often preferred over Red. The workflow is convenient and known, the picture is far from videosih when DigiPrimes are used and it has matured over the years to a very reliable camera system. Many TV series and feature films are shot with this camera. It's versatile, has superior ergonomics, fast, and delivers one stop more light sensitivity than the RedOne.

Only DOF and the possibility to use 35mm glass and hence quality improvements makes for TV producer the RedOne an attractive camera if budget and time allows to deal with the akward workflow.

The F900R will stay with us as S16mm does for another half of a decade. Arri sold hundreds of their new S16mm 416 and more S16mm porductions are shot then ever before. Sounds rediculous but it's true.

The last TVC that I shot with 35mm is almost a year ago. Since then only Red, including docs (former S16mm, F900R) and corporate stuff (former S16mm, 35mm, F900R). But I'm not a TV producer.

Hans

[Phil Bates]

F900Rs are often preferred over Red. The workflow is convenient and known, the picture is far from videosih when DigiPrimes are used and it has matured over the years to a very reliable camera system. Many TV series and feature films are shot with this camera. It's versatile, has superior ergonomics, fast, and delivers one stop more light sensitivity than the RedOne.

Only DOF and the possibility to use 35mm glass and hence quality improvements makes for TV producer the RedOne an attractive camera if budget and time allows to deal with the akward workflow.

The F900R will stay with us as S16mm does for another half of a decade. Arri sold hundreds of their new S16mm 416 and more S16mm porductions are shot then ever before. Sounds rediculous but it's true.

The last TVC that I shot with 35mm is almost a year ago. Since then only Red, including docs (former S16mm, F900R) and corporate stuff (former S16mm, 35mm, F900R). But I'm not a TV producer.

Hans

Thanks Hans!

Phil
http://www.artbeats.com

[johannperry]

For the UK doc market this year so far I've shot 132 days on my HDX900 and 49 days on my DigiBeta. been pushing Red hard but no takers in my market yet for any long form projects. It's hard to give up my other kits when they are still so productive.

[Henk van den Doel]

I saw a movie projected in HD in a cinema the other day shot on the F900R, where they used 35mm glass on it. I love our RED, but that stuff looked simply stunning and very cinematic as well. It is still a good camera. I liked the way the images 'move'. Fast pans were smooth as silk, though it was shot at 25P.

[Pawel Achtel]

I don't know about you, but since I've gone Red, my fairly new F900R hasn't left the shelf. I am uncomfortable letting $150K of gear just depreciate rapidly before my eyes, but not sure what to do about it. I know it has ENG capabilities that may give it a slight advantage to the Red in some cases, so I am still holding on to it.

Anyone else in the same boat? What are you doing with your old camera? Is there much resale value left?

Phil
http://www.artbeats.com

Phil,

In the last 6 months I sold my HDCAM camera, wide HD zoom, sold full set of EC primes, sold two HDVF lcd screens, charger, batts, sold my HDCAM deck, RMB-150 ...and made some shelf space for the Epic. :biggrin:

But, I made a decision to focus on Digital Cinema long time ago. I am not interested in run & gun ENG style videography or television doco. If I was filming mainly for television I would have stayed with ENG style camera instead of Red One.

It is sort of using the best tool for the job. I guess it depends what area you want to focus on.

[Vincent Thomas]

Is there any way to smooth the motion of Red footage in post production? I guess it will depend but just wondering... anyone?

vincent*



I saw a movie projected in HD in a cinema the other day shot on the F900R, where they used 35mm glass on it. I love our RED, but that stuff looked simply stunning and very cinematic as well. It is still a good camera. I liked the way the images 'move'. Fast pans were smooth as silk, though it was shot at 25P.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

HD camera prices are falling through the floor. This isn't really due to RED, IMO, but because the quality on the low-end is getting so good in relation to the "pro" systems.

$12K for a Varicam body on ebay isn't that great of a deal. I know someone who just bought a Varicam body for $8K, legit sale from original owner.

Seriously, if I had an F900R sitting on my shelf, I would be going insane right now. I would be renting that thing out like there's no tomorrow and possibly considering a sale.

[Joe Walker]

I would try to sell that F900R FAST.


That seems a little excessive to me. The F900R is still to this day a fantastic camera and is PLENTY useful. There would be no reason to unload it unless you just weren't getting the business you need from it. I'm still shooting jobs with a myriad of cameras. And if anybody is looking to dump their F900R PM me, cuz I won't turn down a good deal! :wink:

[Paul Hazlett]

Seriously, if I had an F900R sitting on my shelf, I would be going insane right now. I would be renting that thing out like there's no tomorrow and possibly considering a sale.

agreed, get anything you can out of that camera, because high rate rentals for it are going to be a thing of the past very quickly.

This not to say people wont want to use it, they are just not going to want to
pay a premium when so many other options are available.

[Hans von Sonntag]

agreed, get anything you can out of that camera, because high rate rentals for it are going to be a thing of the past very quickly. .

As they are with the RedOne.

Hans

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think we're seeing a massive shift in the industry, largely in part due to RED and their direct sales model. I see more lower-cost cameras coming from Aaton and Arri that will be targeted at owner/operators rather than the rental market. With the continued evolution and proliferation of digital systems, cameras will continue to become more capable and less expensive to own and operate.

I think it's safe to assume that the real money in terms of hardware is going to be in the optics and accessories markets once all this shakes down.

[Mitch Gross]

I think it's safe to assume that the real money in terms of hardware is going to be in the optics and accessories markets once all this shakes down.

Music to my ears.