Pro's and cons of going Nikon vs Red lenses

[Mike Harrington]

Initially I was set on going with the cheaper Nikkor lenses....now with the new lower priced 18-50, and the cooke i technology, i am seriously debating.

I come from ENG background, so I appreciate the simplicity that those lenses (ENG) offer i.e. built in rocker style zoom, focus controls ect.
Planning out a proper lens control kit is new for me. And now it looks like Red with it's supergrip, is creating an idiot proof lens control setup.(I am speculating of course) The idea of a one-stop-shop is very convienient and easy.

I assume that with some research and planning I could assemble a cheaper Nikkor based setup...but I have learned many times over that, going cheaper can be more expensive long term.

What are peoples thought's on going with either Red or Nikkor based systems?

I realize this is a pretty open ended question, i am just trying to spark discussion, because well...we have a lot of expertise on this forum, and I am just trying to soak up as much as I can.

[Jaime Vallés]

Well, I guess it depends entirely on budget. The 18-50 RED zoom costs $6500. A complete set of Nikon lenses can be had for less than $2000.

For me, it comes down to the money. If I had it, I'd spend $20K on the upcoming RED prime lens set. But I don't. I'd rather use Nikon and spend the rest on the other elements of production. But that's just me.

[Brandon Fraley]

yeah, if you can afford it, go PL. I can't, so it's nikons for me.

[Evin Grant]

I don't think it's that simple. My plan is to be able to offer diffent packages for diffrent producers and budgets. For example, you really want to shoot Red 4K but have less that $1000 for the entire camera set up. OK, stripped down Camera, one Red drive and a set of Nikkors. Slower to pull focus, a little more breathing, no meta data but you still get the awesome 35mm DOF and 4K quality. Or you've got a real budget and you get the pimped out accessories, Red pimes and Zoom, Red Drive, CF card module and the option of using the Nikkors as well (providing time to change mounts). Remeber there are some fast and specialty lenses that also have a place on your Red.

[jaadgy akanni]

Well, I guess it depends entirely on budget. The 18-50 RED zoom costs $6500. A complete set of Nikon lenses can be had for less than $2000.

For me, it comes down to the money. If I had it, I'd spend $20K on the upcoming RED prime lens set. But I don't. I'd rather use Nikon and spend the rest on the other elements of production. But that's just me.

I'm with ya Jaime. I've already got the set of lenses I'm gonna be using. I've been able to find my favorite Nikons (used) and acquire them for cheap. I've got my favorite Manuals= 20mm, 28mm, 50mm, 85mm, 100mm, and favorite 3 zooms. I'm ready to go! Well, I guess I will be when the camera arrives in a year:waaa:

[Alexander Nikishin]

Slower to pull focus, a little more breathing, no meta data but you still get the awesome 35mm DOF and 4K quality.Red.

For those reasons in particular I won't be shooting with Nikkors.

I only want my work to be seen in its best possible form. If that means giving into a little bit of low balling on the producers part in wanting PL's vs Nikkors, so be it. As long as my work looks the best it can.

Now if I were renting out my package and not shooting the project, that is where I may incorporate some Nikkors into the equation.

[Paul Hazlett]

I think the key here is managing expectations. If you can deliver what you promise with red, alot of people wont care how you do it, be it nikons or zeiss
or cookes or reds.

If however, you are renting out your camera and there is a DP who is expecting cine lenses, then you might have a bit of a problem.

Perception plays into this. For some they want to see what there paying for,
lots of hardware on the set and a full blown camera with big lens and matte box.

Ultimately I think it comes down to how you are using your Camera. If its your project, Or your the operator and know your clients and have perfected your setup with nikons I think you can save some money.

If on the other hand you are Renting or freelancing to whomever, you might want to consider PL's and charge accordingly

[Mike Harrington]

if i go with the Red zoom, I won't be buying the Red primes.....can't afford it.

Even buying the Red Zoom, Nikkor adapter and lenses, is probably over the budet at this time.

So I guess the question is, do you buy 1 excellent Red zoom?
Or a small set of Nikkors?

What is the difference in quality between a zoom and primes?
If you have a high qaulity zoom(say the red zoom)....could that exceed the quality of a set of primes (Nikkor) in it's optical range.

All things being equal, I would much rather have 1 good lens, then changing lenses all the time?

[Paul Hazlett]

if that is your choice I would go with the red zoom to start and fill in with nikons if needed, maybe a longer nikon prime or 2.

With the red zoom you will have a pro 35 lens that will look good and perform
well. Not to say the an all nikons setup wont, but the zoom will cover your bases.

[Evin Grant]

It's not going to be THAT easy to change the mount. I would standardize on one system first. It seems to me that you can get a complete Nikkor set including some great f1.4 lenses for less than the price of the 18-50 Red.

Alexander, the ergonimics will be different but I do believe you will be able to make just as good images with Nikkors as with Red lenses.

[Jason Francois]

I'm with the "Use What You Can Afford Upfront" group. From an indie filmmakers perspective just to be able to get a camera setup and "play" for a little while is very intriguing.

I would hope after using the camera for a bit that I would be able to switch over to a PL mount and maybe bring in other lenses, but I'm still looking forward to working with the camera by any means I can.

Now, if you're doing fully client work that can change things a bit.

Also, like Evin mentioned it's probably not going to be all that easy just to swap out lens adapters.

[martinnoweck]

Hi,

IMO it depends on the production needs and budget, so i assembled and tested a set of Nikkors (17-35mm, 50mm, 135mm and 300mm) according to Evins recommendations for low budget productions or "talking heads".

If there is more money or technical need for PL-Primes I rent ARRI Primes from a local rental house.

first I thought going with the RED Zoom and adding some nikkors to the set, but then I became aware of the lens mount problem there might be with changing in the field, so for now I think the customer can have two different sets, but no mix.

By the way, any opinions on the Nikkor 300mm?

Martin

[Evin Grant]

By the way, any opinions on the Nikkor 300mm?
Martin

It's spectacular! But personally I think the 200mm f2 Nikkor is a more usefull lens on the Red. 300mm is very long (489mm in 35mm still conversion). So I personally feel the 85mm f1.4, 135mm f2 & 200mm f2 are a great tele tripple threat. And you can find great deals on 200mm f2 AIS lenses out there.

[Mike Harrington]

Well that gives me a lot to think about.
I appreciate you guys letting me pick your brains....

And thanks Evin for all the info you put out....it's nice getting unbiased knowledge from guys who know what there talking about.

I'll likely put together a good Nikkor kit, and then pick your brains again about follow focus, zoom control, mattebox ect.

i would like to see what comes of red's supergrip, and possibly lens motors.

[Evin Grant]

You all know there is no reason the Red motor/Supergrip combo won't work with Nikkors right. Assuming you add some lens gears from Zacuto/Redrock/P+S and such.

[Mike Prevette]

Evin,

typically the dampening of the focus barrels on still lenses has been a little to stiff for most lens motors. Often the motor will jam, or "skip its gears". Also in most Nikor lenses I have their is a little to much play in the helical focus tube to get repeatable results.

_mike

[Júlio Taubkin]

I like the look of still photo lenses. I've been getting the results with 35mm adapters and they rock. So I would keep my nikons to use on special projects, and for situations when I need F1.4. A 50mm and an 80mm F1.4 could be very handy on some low light / doc situations, toghether with some low light teles, like 200mm for concerts, theather or anything involving people on a stage in low light (but not in single camera since there are much wasted shots with a 200mm wide open).

The RED zoom is also great, it gives you the option of owning a pro PL lens for very little money. It's also more documentary friendly than still primes wich is always good considering the market for personally owned cameras...

Prices are fair in both situations, you get (sometimes more than) what you pay for.

If you do more dramatic/ads than documentary, another nice option would be P+S rehoused Zeiss ZF primes. But I think the versatility of the zoom and price of Nikons make both options better deals.

[Mike Harrington]

You all know there is no reason the Red motor/Supergrip combo won't work with Nikkors right. Assuming you add some lens gears from Zacuto/Redrock/P+S and such.

hopefully more info on the supergrip/Red motor will be coming soon:bleh:

[Evin Grant]

Evin,

typically the dampening of the focus barrels on still lenses has been a little to stiff for most lens motors. Often the motor will jam, or "skip its gears". Also in most Nikor lenses I have their is a little to much play in the helical focus tube to get repeatable results.

_mike

This can be easily solved by an authorized Nikon service center. I know I had both my 85mm 1.4 and 28mm 1.4 relubed and adjusted for a "looser/smoother" focus. It is not expensive $85-$125.

[Ralph Oshiro]

It's spectacular! But personally I think the 200mm f2 Nikkor is a more usefull lens on the Red. 300mm is very long (489mm in 35mm still conversion). So I personally feel the 85mm f1.4, 135mm f2 & 200mm f2 are a great tele tripple threat. And you can find great deals on 200mm f2 AIS lenses out there.
Evin:

What's your opinion on the Nikkor 180mm f/2.8 and older Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 (I own one of the last push-pulls)? I got both the 180mm and 70-200 mm at a bargain, used. Did you survive the Giffoni thing?

[Nathan Troutman]

I was all set to carry over my Nikkors from my 35mm adapter days (hopefully a long gone thing of the past now), but then NAB and the Canon EOS adapter announcement. After asking photographer associates of mine I learned that the EOS lenses are servo driven (auto) lenses. I can't seem to find much in the way of details about what this "EOS mount combined with the Supergrip," actually is, but the my best assumption is: offering the ability to use EOS lenses that can be controlled by Supergrip and use EOS internal servos of the EOS lenses to control focus or zoom. Not to hijack this thread but it seems everyone here is planning/thinking about the same thing, but nobody seems to know a lot or be talking a lot about the EOS mount. Are my assumptions wrong?

Because if I'm not, I'd be thinking of starting over and getting a set of EOS lenses. You'd have the ability to pull focus "hands-off" from the supergrip. This, I think, wouldn't take the skill that a pro focus puller requires so you could "convert" someone to the job. Unfortunately, "conversions" often play a part in my low-budget projects. Also, "multitasking." Not exactly union rules.

Anyone have any thoughts on any of this?

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I don't mind using Nikons, and I think most people with smaller budgets wouldnt mind either.

I figure if anyone wants to shell out the extra money for zeiss or cooke primes, I could just turn around and rent them for the day and pass on the cost.

[Júlio Taubkin]

This, I think, wouldn't take the skill that a pro focus puller requires so you could "convert" someone to the job. Unfortunately, "conversions" often play a part in my low-budget projects. Also, "multitasking." Not exactly union rules.


Not really. turning a focus barrel or a follow focus isn't any harder than it seems. A good focus is just a guy who turns the barrel to the right point at the right time. It can be with a focus barrel, a remote control, or a follow focus.

But true, it might make it easier for one man operation of camera, such as low budget/docs...

[Evin Grant]

The EOS lenses are fine, focusing with the internal motors may not be as convienient as using a microprocessor controlled servo like the Red motors though. It's realy an unknown at this point. But certainly you could add gears to the focus rings on EOS lenses and have both options if you like.
Personally I like the character of Nikkors better, especially the wides. Canon makes amazing teles but the have always trailed in the wideangles IMO. To each his own.

[Evin Grant]

Not really. turning a focus barrel or a follow focus isn't any harder than it seems. A good focus is just a guy who turns the barrel to the right point at the right time. It can be with a focus barrel, a remote control, or a follow focus.

But true, it might make it easier for one man operation of camera, such as low budget/docs...

Really great 1st ACs are worth their weight in gold. It's not just focusing it's anticipation and experience that allows a good pull at T2 while tracking and dollying at the same time. No autofocus in the world will be able to replicate the adaptive mind of an experienced 1st.

[planet e]

this thread is hitting a nerve. the lens choices are tough....

my questions:

1) if i have two cameras on order, would i be able to fit one with RED lenses and one with my existing nikon lenses and have the images match? or would i be better off having the same brand lenses on both cameras? will it make a difference?

2) i have some of the best canon glass, including the most remarkable 200mm f1.8, so i'm excited about what birger is doing with making RED EOS-compatible. i imagine that a EOS mount will be required. will RED make one? or birger? or will a custom-engineered mount be required? or made available? i'm not sure about who is in charge of this end of things.

any insight (or even informed speculation!) is appreciated....

[Evin Grant]

The EOS mount will be made by Birger for Red who will sell the product. Of course Red will also be involved in it's implementation to gaurentee it works optimally on the camera it's self. As far as matching, I'm not really that concerned because a RAW image workflow like the RED means you can easily match color from shot to shot without any worry about losing data or locking yourself into a mistake.

[Kenn Christenson]

This can be easily solved by an authorized Nikon service center. I know I had both my 85mm 1.4 and 28mm 1.4 relubed and adjusted for a "looser/smoother" focus. It is not expensive $85-$125.


Will any Nikon service center be able to do this adjustment?

[Evin Grant]

I would err on the side of caution and seek out an "Autorized" Nikon service center. You can find one here....
http://www.nikonusa.com/fileuploads/pdfs/Nikon_repair_list.pdf

[Kenn Christenson]

Thanks, Evan.
K.C.

[cckid]

Hi,

I think the question should not be reduced to cine vs. still lense issue. These two choices coexist between each other and depend on the budget of the project.

We are expecting a red one in september and will have both options: a set of zeiss primes and possibly a red zoom 18-50, as well as a set of nikon lenses.


Depending on the clients needs we will offer both options. Of course it is much more convnenient shooting on a cine lense, but with an additional mini red aka. red ppc on the way it is great having the option of using nikon glass.

I am proud to say that I have just ordered a brand new set of my nikon dream lense setup (17-35/2.8, 50/1.4, 85/1.4, 105 micro/2.8, 80-200/2.8) that I intend to use on my nikon d200 as well as on the red one, and that's just great....so basically both options are good...just depends on needs and the nature of the project we are doing....if shooting a big time commercial we would go with some glorious primes...when shooting a low budget music video for a local hero....nikon will do more than fine...

[Michael Hastings]

Evin: As you know, us underwater shooters want as wide as possible, but as your comment points out, I rarely see really good reviews of Canon wide angles - we have been looking at the Canon possibilities with the Birger EOS mount, but what Nikon superwides should we be considering as well.

PS. I tried at NAB, but couldn't convince Jim to make a RED 10 to 12 mm prime.




The EOS lenses are fine, focusing with the internal motors may not be as convienient as using a microprocessor controlled servo like the Red motors though. It's realy an unknown at this point. But certainly you could add gears to the focus rings on EOS lenses and have both options if you like.
Personally I like the character of Nikkors better, especially the wides. Canon makes amazing teles but the have always trailed in the wideangles IMO. To each his own.

[Evin Grant]

Aqua...
Honestly the EOS mount is going to be available first and as far as I can tell the 10-22 is pretty darn good lens. It seems that it's the full frame wides Canon can't seem to get right. The Canon 10-22, Nikon 12-24 and Tokina 12-24 all seem to be on par with each other according to most reviews I've seen. I own the 12-24 Nikkor and it's one of the best wide angle lenses I have ever owned, it's even better at 24 than the 17-35 (Although not at the other focal lengths). I really think the clarity of the dome/water is going to be more of an issue than which one of these lenses you choose.

[planet e]

thanks for the reply, evin. since i have nikkors and EOS lenses and an 18-85mm + 300mm reserved (but not sure if i want to transfer to the 18-50mm), i've been in a twist about whether to purchase the 18-50mm or wait it out with my existing lens options. it seems like RED will likely offer still more lens options down the road, and i might be able to spend my lens money on other goodies, while waiting for a cine zoom with a bit more range, to suit my shooting style (mostly EFP).

strategerie, strategerie!

[Michael Hastings]

Evin: It seems like I keep coming back to the 10-22. One of the forum guys kind of panned it for Chromatic Aberration, but I think maybe he was getting to close to the projected image.

I spoke to Graeme at NAB about CA correction in REDCINE somewhere down the road and he seemed to think it was pretty doable. Do you know of any existing software that does CA correction for motion pictures? I.E. plugins for final cut or some other software?

I think you may be right about water clarity - I mentioned in the bubble blowers group that we may be better off shooting at 10 even if it is not quite as perfect as the 12 or 14 primes simply because we would be shooting through less water and we may be able to correct for lens abberrations easier than water clarity issues.

RE:10-22 Ken Rockwell says its actually a little better than the 12-24 which he thinks is great. I'm not always sure about Rockwell's bona fides, but if anything he seems to be a Nikon guy, so it would seem to be pretty high praise.


Aqua...
Honestly the EOS mount is going to be available first and as far as I can tell the 10-22 is pretty darn good lens. It seems that it's the full frame wides Canon can't seem to get right. The Canon 10-22, Nikon 12-24 and Tokina 12-24 all seem to be on par with each other according to most reviews I've seen. I own the 12-24 Nikkor and it's one of the best wide angle lenses I have ever owned, it's even better at 24 than the 17-35 (Although not at the other focal lengths). I really think the clarity of the dome/water is going to be more of an issue than which one of these lenses you choose.

[planet e]

the 10-22 is an EF-S mount, which is not identical to an EF mount. does anyone know if the birger mount will even support EF-S lenses? for instance, you can't mount EF-S lenses on an XL2 or XL H1 using canon's EF lens adapter, only EF lenses. someone oughta check this issue out, because it rules out the canon super-wides if EF-S lenses are not supported, so your widest canon would be then the 14mm in a prime or the 16-35mm in a zoom.

or has someone already looked into this? any info?

[planet e]

also, for the money, sigma makes the outstanding 10-20mm in superwide. it's every bit as good as the canon, but cheaper. it's built like a tank, and has the same EF-S mount as the canon, however, so if the birger canon mount does not support EF-S lenses, then we're SOL.

EF-S lenses also do not work on canon full-frame cameras, so i can use the 10-22mm on my Rebel but not on my Mark II. bummer!

[Evin Grant]

There are some phisical diffrences that keep EFS lenses from being mounted on the standard EF mount, this has to do with the larger fullframe mirrior hitting the back of the lens. Apperantly it can be modified but Eric from Birger may already be taking this into consideration, we'll see.

[planet e]

...just throwing it out there, to keep anyone from investing in a particular lens, either emotionally or financially, before we know the specs....

[Paul Hazlett]

I am a bit concerned now in reading these posts as to the feasibility of switching mounts. Is this going to be a royal pain with soso results or is it going to be a matter of taking your time beofre the shoot and setting the right mount up. I know no one can give concrete answers, but as close to the process as you are Evin I was hoping you could shed some light.

I was originally plannng on using an HD lense, the Red zoom and nikon Primes,
but now not so sure.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Good question....
So if you do order the Nikon mount - will RED
ship the camera with what mount you specify?
And I would hope camera/lens rental houses
would be able to switch to the PL mount
and do the proper calibration with your rental
lens of choice?
If you do not go the rental route I would think
it would be harder to calibrate the mounts
after changing them?

[Evin Grant]

as close to the process as you are Evin I was hoping you could shed some light.

I think you guys are over estimating my proximity to the Red temple. I don't know that much more than you guys, so much of it is informed speculation. From what I saw at NAB and what I have read and heard the Red team say I would gather that it will be possible to swith lens mounts yourself but it should not be done lightly. Maybe once durring the prep of a shoot. I also gather that changing mounts will require some care, knoledge, the right tools and a clean, well lit place to work. It may also require an HD display of some sort to get backfocus checked. These things will have to be tested as they become available. I don't think it's a good idea to plan on having an arsenal of lenses in different mounts for a single shoot, although the B4 adapter is from PL so that should be no problem.

[Craig Bowman]

If your going to deal with adjusting backfocus issues you'll need a Putora Sharpness Indicator Test Chart: 7A9.

ZGC carries them along with a host of other test charts.

[Michael Hastings]

We have been batting around the Birger mount issues in the underwater bubble blowers group for quite awhile and yes Erik at Birger has confirmed that their mount works with the EF-S lenses.



the 10-22 is an EF-S mount, which is not identical to an EF mount. does anyone know if the birger mount will even support EF-S lenses? for instance, you can't mount EF-S lenses on an XL2 or XL H1 using canon's EF lens adapter, only EF lenses. someone oughta check this issue out, because it rules out the canon super-wides if EF-S lenses are not supported, so your widest canon would be then the 14mm in a prime or the 16-35mm in a zoom.

or has someone already looked into this? any info?

[Paul Hazlett]

thanks Evin,

I guess there is a perception that you have an inside track, but just knowin your stuff makes it seems like you do.

I saw you mention earlier that you think the coloration of different lenses,
say the Red zoom and a Zeiss or Cooke 85mm prime, would be able to match
up in post with a llittle tweak here and there.

I am an ENG/EFP guy so the whole lens switch thing is new

[Evin Grant]

Most lenses will match no problem within the manufacturer, Nikon to Nikon, Zeiss to Zeiss. But even outside that it shouldn't be too hard to match shots from diffrent make lenses, as long as you know what to lok for. It may be a good idea to test all your lenses on a series of indentical setups so you can see the differences and have a known quanitity. That should make things easier.

[Stephen Williams]

If your going to deal with adjusting backfocus issues you'll need a Putora Sharpness Indicator Test Chart: 7A9.

ZGC carries them along with a host of other test charts.

Hi Craig,

More likely collimator such as the Zeiss Sharpmax.

Stephen

[Steve Gibby]

Phaz,

If you're shooting RGB (1080p or 720p), and baking in front-end values than lens color matching is obviously very important. If you're shooting RAW then the color values of the footage are not baked in, you can adjust several things in REDCINE, thus color matching of lenses, as in mixing lenses from different manufacturers, is less of an issue. Your cine and 35mm still lenses will be able to shoot RAW formats on RED, and with a RED or Abakas adapter, your 2/3" HD lenses will be able to shoot 2k RC RAW. If you're shooting all RAW, then matching color with REDCINE shouldn't be a problem. That said, a bigger issue when using various lenses on the same production, will be matching the other qualities of the optics of those lenses (CA, bokeh, breathing, etc.) in the editing process.

[Bruce Allen]

Phaz,

If you're shooting RGB (1080p or 720p), and baking in front-end values than lens color matching is obviously very important. If you're shooting RAW then the color values of the footage are not baked in, you can adjust several things in REDCINE, thus color matching of lenses, as in mixing lenses from different manufacturers, is less of an issue. Your cine and 35mm still lenses will be able to shoot RAW formats on RED, and with a RED or Abakas adapter, your 2/3" HD lenses will be able to shoot 2k RC RAW. If you're shooting all RAW, then matching color with REDCINE shouldn't be a problem.

Agreed! Also, if the Red lenses have that Cooke /i thing built in, couldn't REDCINE also do a little bit of automatic color matching, since it'd know which lenses were used on which shot?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Dominique Grenier]

Agreed! Also, if the Red lenses have that Cooke /i thing built in, couldn't REDCINE also do a little bit of automatic color matching, since it'd know which lenses were used on which shot?

I might be wrong but, wouldn't the camera only know what kind of lense it is if its a RED lense? If there's a still lense, all the camera would know is that its not a RED lense?

[martinnoweck]

I thought this feature could work only with Cooke lenses? Will the RED lenses also work with metadata?

Martin

[Bruce Allen]

As far as I know, /i will work with Cooke and Red lenses. I was counting this as another "point" for Red lenses vs Nikon.

Why do Red lenses work with /i? This has been discussed before, the consensus amonst rumor-mongers like us is that Cooke is working with Red on the Red lenses (the fact that Red's sample 18-50 at NAB supposedly had "made in England" written on it might have had something to do with it too ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Karl H]

A bit of advice needed, if anyone can help....

Its seems that changing lens mounts isnt a practical option. So for the money its sticking to a single mount :

a) red zoom 18-50
b) set of nikkor primes
c) Canon EOS

While b/c will give me more creative choices I really am concerned about focussing with these things, let alone pulling focus. I read that on Zodiac, Fincher and crew had to go back and re-shoot about 30 shots because they were out of focus... now thats a full crew, experienced FF guy, using cinema lenes. In all seriousness, what chance do we stand using nikons and a FF system (by redrock for example). Is this wishful thinking? The reality seems to be no-one has tried this, certainly not at 4K.

I dont want to invest and then find it just isnt practical to use. I read on cinematography.com that putting SLR lenes on red was a joke, and just wait until we tried to focus with them practically. I think people who are familiar with using 35mm adpaters on SD will see a big difference trying to hit focus at 2K/4K. SD is very forgiving.

$500 for the mount $2000 for a set of lenses. That $2500 is a big chunk to go towards the red lens if it turns out to be a near impossible task.

Has anyone had any experience with a HD format and SLR lenses? maybe on the SI camera?

The way I see it, its not a wise investment if it really is 10x more difficult to hit focus. Is this a reality or something really not worth the bother?

It really isnt a simple choice and I have to say I feel somewhat out of my knowledge base to make a decision here.

finally, will the red motor and red lens eliminate the need for an external FF?

[Bachman]

A bit of advice needed, if anyone can help....

Its seems that changing lens mounts isnt a practical option. So for the money its sticking to a single mount :

a) red zoom 18-50
b) set of nikkor primes
c) Canon EOS

While b/c will give me more creative choices I really am concerned about focussing with these things, let alone pulling focus. I read that on Zodiac, Fincher and crew had to go back and re-shoot about 30 shots because they were out of focus... now thats a full crew, experienced FF guy, using cinema lenes. In all seriousness, what chance do we stand using nikons and a FF system (by redrock for example). Is this wishful thinking? The reality seems to be no-one has tried this, certainly not at 4K.

I dont want to invest and then find it just isnt practical to use. I read on cinematography.com that putting SLR lenes on red was a joke, and just wait until we tried to focus with them practically. I think people who are familiar with using 35mm adpaters on SD will see a big difference trying to hit focus at 2K/4K. SD is very forgiving.

$500 for the mount $2000 for a set of lenses. That $2500 is a big chunk to go towards the red lens if it turns out to be a near impossible task.

Has anyone had any experience with a HD format and SLR lenses? maybe on the SI camera?

The way I see it, its not a wise investment if it really is 10x more difficult to hit focus. Is this a reality or something really not worth the bother?

It really isnt a simple choice and I have to say I feel somewhat out of my knowledge base to make a decision here.

finally, will the red motor and red lens eliminate the need for an external FF?


You could always try just buying the Nikkor mount and hiring some lenses first. Mind you if you havent ordered you RED yet you could assume that the lense issue will be sorted well before you get yours

T

[Karl H]

very true, $500 plus a $50 50mm lens to test isnt the end of the world, but then theres the FF cost too...... Still a shame if it turns out to be as useless as a pirate copy of photoshop 1.

I'm hoping i will have some time to read reviews/practical experience before I buy. But as im 394, I have a feeling i might be among the guinea pigs.

[Bachman]

very true, $500 plus a $50 50mm lens to test isnt the end of the world, but then theres the FF cost too...... Still a shame if it turns out to be as useless as a pirate copy of photoshop 1.

I'm hoping i will have some time to read reviews/practical experience before I buy. But as im 394, I have a feeling i might be among the guinea pigs.

394, cool, let me know how you get on then..Id rather spend your money

Hmm, Photoshop 1....those were the days

[Evin Grant]

While b/c will give me more creative choices I really am concerned about focussing with these things, let alone pulling focus. I read that on Zodiac, Fincher and crew had to go back and re-shoot about 30 shots because they were out of focus... now thats a full crew, experienced FF guy, using cinema lenes. In all seriousness, what chance do we stand using nikons and a FF system (by redrock for example). Is this wishful thinking? The reality seems to be no-one has tried this, certainly not at 4K.

I think focusing 4K on any lens at open apertures is going to require more patientce and possibly the focus assist. I do not think the difrence between Nikkors and cinema lenses is so great as to render them a "Joke" many professional cinema cameras have been using Nikkors for years "Vista Vision" for one. However it is going to require more care, the days of run and gunning like DV are over for us Red shooters. The good news is that the DOF does make seeing the focus a little easier too. My best advice for now is try to get some light on your subject and shoot at f5.6-8 :wacko:

[Karl H]

thanks for the answers. Thats pretty much what I was thinking. However it may not alwats be possible to shoot at f5.6. Especially indoors.

I dont know how the sensitivity compares, but I recently did a short film where we used 3 x 800W coming in the windows at night for moonlight and a few low powered spots to highlight areas of interest. With this set-up on my DVX i was fully wide and in some places still not bright enough. Red will be more sensitive, but I dont think by so much to shoot 5.6 in similar conditions.

yes, i need more powerful lights, I know.....

lets say I was to get the 18-50 Red lens. What would be the cheapest option of getting a good enough lens for longer work. My guess is it wouldnt be used an awful lot; but I'd like something reasonable and good enough for 2K work at 50mm+

[Roberto B]

same worry here..


thanks for the answers. Thats pretty much what I was thinking. However it may not alwats be possible to shoot at f5.6. Especially indoors.
yup

[Craig Bowman]

Hi Craig,

More likely collimator such as the Zeiss Sharpmax.

Stephen

The siemens star is also a popular chart when adjusting back focus.

Sharpmax was designed to be used with Digiprimes and is often included in a rental kit. It has a Universal Mount available but most rental shops don't carry the UM just the standard. You have to go straight to Zeiss for the UM. Sharpmax lists for about 8,500.00

Century Optics makes their HD Collimator 0HD-C150-00 for about 3,500.00 but I'm not sure if its suitable for the kinds of lenses we are dealing with.

The sharpmax is a fantastic tool but again if you can't fit it to the lens then its useless.

[Matt Uhry]

All this Nikkor / Cine talk really comes down to the kind of jobs that you are doing and the style you want to work in. If you employ a 1st AC who's a good focus puller he/she is going to NEED cinestyle lenses to do his/her job.

If you don't, or don't yet work this way, or don't have a big pile of cash, get a bunch of Nikon AIS's! They are great lenses, inexpensive and when you outgrow them sell them on ebay...

Breathing when focusing while usually considered undesirable, can be hidden with blocking and camera moves, many great films have been made with lens sets that breathe worse than any nikon prime does.

The Red 18-50 T2.8 is not really tele enough be your only lens. I suspect that Red will make something like a 40-150 T2.8 to pair with it, so figure your budget for both these lenses being more like $13,000.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Dustin Cross]

Aloha,

I have been using old Nikon manual focus lenses on 35mm adapters for a few years now with no problems pulling focus. I currently have Redrock Micro gears on them and there is plenty of follow focus travel. The newer autofocus lenses have a short focus throw and they are a problem.

The lenses I use almost daily are:
20mm f2.8
35mm f2.0
55mm f1.2
55mm f3.5 macro
85mm f1.4
105mm f1.8

I have other lenses, but these are the one I always take. All of my lenses are manual focus only. I rearly use the macro. The 20mm should be replaced with something better, but every director loves how wide it is. The 35, 55, and 85 are awesome and the 105 is very nice, but doesn't get used as much as the others.

Shooting with lens adapters I primarily shoot wide open to get enough light and no noise. So I have gotten used to keeping a subject in focus with the 55mm at f1.2 as they walk around. It is a nightmare and I don't expect to do it with my Red. I plan to shoot mostly at f5.6 or f8 which are much easier to keep focus. But practising at f1.2 makes f8 seem trivial.

Something I am thinking about is getting the Canon mount for my Red and then using Nikon to Canon adapter to mount my Nikons. Then I can also get Canon lenses and have the best of both. has anyone else tried the Nikon to Canon adpaters. There are tons of them on Ebay.

Bottom line is puling focus on the old manual lenses, that were ment to have a person doing the focusing, is not a problem. The problems come when using the newer autofucus lenses that are not ment for a person to focus.

I am seriously thinking about getting the Nikon 17-35 f2.8 AF lens to add to my set. That lens sounds great and focusing f5.6 at that wide will be less of a problem.

[Evin Grant]

Be careful what EOS-NIKON adapter you get, they can range from crap to good. I recomend the Cameraquest.com ones.