Re-Framing 4K for 720 HD and SD

[Mark Mannschreck]

I'm planning to shoot a personal doco feature as my first Red project. I will be finishing DVCPro HD 720P or maybe even D1 so I finally wanted to get an idea of my re-framing abilites in post... Thought I'd post it for anyone interested. I'm actually considering shooting Masters ONLY and going in for MS and CU in post. 1). 4096X1743 2). 2048X1152 3). 1920X1080 4). 1280X720 5). 720X486

[casey warren]

nice, reframing in post might be a kind of cool challege. Also, it might provide a really unique look if you do it throughout the piece.

[Mark Mannschreck]

That's what I was thinking... Imagine the possibilities if you are finishing in a lesser format. All your coverage is there in the master.

[casey warren]

yeah, exactly. However, I think it will provide a much different look than physically moving the camera, or switching focal lengths. Also you probably have to strictly stay with shooting masters and reframing in post, within the project. I think it would look awkward if there was a cut thrown in there that wasnt a reframed 4K master.

[casey warren]

It would be interesting to test it out and see if you threw some cuts in there that werent re-framed and see if it flows.

[Mark Mannschreck]

yeah - I think the look would be really cool. You'd have to be sure anything you might reframe is in focus... and if you're good at setting keyframes in AE think of the possibilties with "camera" moves after the fact!

[casey warren]

Oh yeah, keyframing the footage could be really interesting. You could keyframe some really cool transistions between wide, close, and master..etc.

[JustinGD]

Has anyone seen the REM music video for Imitation of Life? They do lots of reframing but it looks very pixelated. That sort of video shot on RED would be amazing.

[Mike Prevette]

I have to say I've never liked the look of pan and scanned footage. It's not a quality issue at all, I've seen very high end footage scanned and reframed and the quality is there. It's just looks lazy and kindof crap. You don't get the perspective shift of say moving from a wide angle lens to a medium master or more tele shot. I just don't think it cuts to well. It feels very obvious to me, and frankly a little lazy. That being said, I have had to do it before on projects and it's saved my butt.

_mike

[AftonGrant]

This same topic was discussed at length here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1942

The general consensus is, it might be good as a backup method of getting something you may have missed, or when absolutely necessary, but it definitely should not be actively practiced. You'd be robbing yourself of better looking shots.

[Tom Lowe]

Forget the coverage stuff, how about just doing some simple reframing if your end goal is a 2K master? What program would you use to do the cropping and reframing?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would be worried about lens defects at that far cropped (SD). Isn't a 16mm lens for instance substantially sharper out of necessity than a 35mm equivalent.

[Mark Mannschreck]

Forget the coverage stuff, how about just doing some simple reframing if your end goal is a 2K master? What program would you use to do the cropping and reframing?

I would use After Effects. Better subpixel positioning than Final Cut.

[Mark Mannschreck]

This same topic was discussed at length here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1942

The general consensus is, it might be good as a backup method of getting something you may have missed, or when absolutely necessary, but it definitely should not be actively practiced. You'd be robbing yourself of better looking shots.

Thanks for the link - good info... I thought I had read every thread here.

I am thinking of using it for a documentary rather than a narrative feature. I am anticipating lots of shots I won't be able to shoot twice... I don't plan on relying on it soley. Having the ability to reframe to that extent will give me more creative options in post.

[Júlio Taubkin]

Don't forget the apparent change in sharpness. While usually downrezzing can augment the perceived sharpness of an image, intercutting between downrezzed shots and pan-and-scanned shots can be tricky, just see the example pictures you posted, you'll get an idea.

The REM video is amazing. Reframing it's a resource and can make for some interesting things, but it's not substitute for breaking down your shots. Be it for a fiction or doc...

[Tom Lowe]

Let's say you're not doing any pan and scanning, just a simple cropping of the image from 4K to 2K, with no scaling. The pixels don't really need to move at all, do they? Can you do simple cropping in Premiere Pro or Final Cut? I honestly have never tried it, mainly because my final master is almost always the exact same size as I shot originally. Shoot 720p, finish at 720p.

I guess if you wanted to crop out a 3K frame from 4K, then downres it to 2K for your master, then you would be talking about shifting pixels around to do the 3K to 2K downsample. Is that right?

[Mark Mannschreck]

Let's say you're not doing any pan and scanning, just a simple cropping of the image from 4K to 2K, with no scaling. The pixels don't really need to move at all, do they? Can you do simple cropping in Premiere Pro or Final Cut? I honestly have never tried it, mainly because my final master is almost always the exact same size as I shot originally. Shoot 720p, finish at 720p.

Yeah - In Final Cut, you'd just drop the 4K Redcode media into your 2K (or whatever) timeline. It will be center cropped by default and size itself down to your timeline... Put it back at 100% scale. Then drag it around to where you want to postition it. The new "Open Format Timeline" will be a BIG help with mixed format projects.

[Mark Mannschreck]

Don't forget the apparent change in sharpness. While usually downrezzing can augment the perceived sharpness of an image, intercutting between downrezzed shots and pan-and-scanned shots can be tricky, just see the example pictures you posted, you'll get an idea.


I agree, but I should point out that the selection used for the test wasn't a very good example for sharpness. The focus seems to be more on the forground in front of the soldiers in that scene - and the dust/smoke is pretty heavy - This might be a better example:

[Ace]

I really think you should be using a 16mm or 2/3inch lenses if you want to be shooting SD Cropped..

[Michele Gavazzeni]

if George Lucas does it !
At lest we should try this technique before saying that is not professional.

[Paul Hazlett]

its an interesting concept but you are losing some on the dynamics of reframing with a different angle. I do think a combination of traditional and
and crop editing could work. easier to match action.

[Mark Mannschreck]

I really think you should be using a 16mm or 2/3inch lenses if you want to be shooting SD Cropped..

I'm talking about having the most room to re-frame in post if desired. Even using it for coverage in a pinch...

I agree that an SD crop may be too much - but looking at the 720p crops of the PJ grabs on a broadcast monitor looks REALLY good... If I'm finishing HD reframing may not be a replacement to having actual coverage, but a HUGE post option I wouldn't have if I had shot in HD. I also think you could get a distinct "look" using it often but properly... Now I am among the people who didn't really like the look of the camera shake added to the PJ short, it just looked a little too canned to my tastes - But the extra res is what makes it even possible. Done right, I believe you could make subtle or even extreme camera moves, add shake, or add faux handheld in post that doesn't have to look like bad Pan n Scan.

[Moir]

I'd expect cropping to be very useful for wildlife documentary work. Shoot at 4k with 35mm teles and then crop in post to get a larger image of the subject as needed. Shoot with 35mm wides at 4k for establishing shots and landscapes. Down-rez it all to 1080p or 720p - should all match perfectly, correct?

[Paul Hazlett]

as a "saver" type of operration I think its an excellent idea. if you need to make a cut for any reason a cut to a wide or tight would be right there.

[Mark Mannschreck]

I believe so. I do it all the time with HD to SD. I'm sure it will all be heavily impacted by the quality of your lenses, atmosphere, and the degree of the crop... Reframing for HD and SD projects will be among the first things I test with my camera. Since I won't have Redcode enabled FCP in the beginning I will probably take all the Redcode Raw 4k into a 720p project anyway and edit and crop as needed. I think we should start thinking about a place on Reduser.net to upload our actual tests! Wouldn't it be cool if there was eventually an actual Redcode section where we could download fellow users Redcode Raw files?