Fallout from Red in the prosumer market?

[pat@hpnc.com]

Hi all I was just thinking about what effect this camera is going to have on the prosumer market. I mean it used to make a lot of sense to shoot with something like a Panasonic HVX200 and high priced adapters for PL lenses etc. But if there is any way possible for people to get the money I cant see them not using the Red. So what do you think will it start a chain reaction of price drops on the cameras below it in price like it will probobly do with the ones above?

And thats leaving out the mini red we dont really know anything about yet. Hopefully it will be a HVX200 killer.

[jbeale]

Choice is always good for the consumer, but all cameras have their own particular set of advantages and drawbacks. Obviously, no one else does 4k resolution at anywhere near the RED price level, but people shooting on "prosumer" cameras now may not be ready (for example) for a fully-manual camera that doesn't have autofocus and autoexposure. As you suggest, I'll guess those using a 35mm adaptor now will be very interested in Red. I'm not sure what total fraction of the camcorder market that is, though- I'd guess small.

[David Mullen ASC]

I think you have to compare cameras in a similar price range -- it's easy to say "hey, just spend a little more" but I get questions all the time from people who have $4000 to spend on a camera... but not $5000.

I don't know what a minimal set of accessories (a few lenses, or one zoom, the recorder, some batteries, a viewfinder monitor, etc.) adds to the cost of the RED but let's just say that $30,000 is a more reasonable figure for the cost of ownership in order to just get shooting -- someone with that kind of money to spend was probably looking at a Sony XDCAM or some midrange Panasonic HD camera (or a Super-16 camera). An HVX200 with a few P2 cards is more like a $10,000 set-up I think.

I think it's the pro HD camcorder market that has more to worry about than the under-$10,000 prosumer market (not knowing what this Mini-RED will be like.) And even there, I'm not sure a news station, for example, would necessarily want or need a RED camera, especially if they liked the look of 60i for HDTV news coverage of live events. There are still certan broadcast video applications that don't want a film look, still want that interlaced-scan look.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I mean who doesn't have $25,000 laying around for a new toy!

I remember people stretching to afford an HVX, RED isn't going to touch that market. You gotta do a lot of jobs every year to make the RED pay itself off. I know of a lot of commercial spots which shoot on the HVX. And these are for big name clients.

[hmurchison]

Yeah I think the "sweet spot" is under $10k for a capable Prosumer gig. I'd bet that the Red mini will be going after this market.

At 30K for a decent Red One config you're still talking about people who are very serious about their craft and are backing this up with significant funds. Yes Red One performs like a 100k cam but hey 30k still buys you a nice car so it has to make money.

I think it's early to tell the fallout from Red. Give it 5 years and we'll all look back at Red and other companies like Silicon are enabling great new disruptive technology for filmmakers.

[casey warren]

RED will have a much more drastic effect on the hi-end market...Varicams, Cinealta, Arri 20D, Gensis, etc....these cameras are in a price bracket that is so far above RED's that they will be forced to drop, or companies will have to work on developing their own 4K cameras.


In addition to that. The larger camera companies could choose to keep their prices high and be regarded as "truly high end," which is all false prestiege when talking about product output quality. Its all about branding...those companies can claim..."hey, we've been making cameras for 50+ years and the pros have had long standing relationships with us, and they will pay high prices for our quality" However, with this mindset, they will be forced to do something drastic to keep much of their user base from switching to RED.

Even if these companies develop their own 4K versions of cameras, RED still has one true and unique advantage over them....direct communication with the market that will be using the REDONE and other products (i.e REDUSER) No other cinema camera company is as close to its users as RED. Can you log online and talk to Robert Beitcher and chat with him about the Genisis.....no. The REDUSER community is the fuel that powers RED to overcome and outlast future competition, etc.

[Jannard]

They have smart guys that know when to keep their mouth shut... :-)

Jim

[pat@hpnc.com]

So I guese maybe the more important question right now to the prosumer market is whats the mini red going to be and will it be as revolutionary as its big brother.

[Jannard]

We are very excited about the RED Professional Pocket camera (next year) but it is not a replacement for the RED ONE.

Jim

[casey warren]

We are very excited about the RED Professional Pocket camera (next year) but it is not a replacement for the RED ONE.

Jim

I knew when the button at RED.com said "cameras"....plural, there would be more to come...there's probably a REDTWO in development...:shiftyph34r:

[pat@hpnc.com]

Sure I didnt think it would be but probobly something for the prosumer range. But for all I know it could be a Video/DLSR hybrid:)

[Gunleik Groven]

Just for the pure info,

My HVX rig - without 35mm adapter - have cost me more than 30k$
And I knew that when I started to buy into it.

I hope the Red rig will end up bellow 60k$, but it is a moot point wether I spend 20k$ or 60k$ initially- as I was really considering a Varicam workflow before I saw the red coming -;)

And with Graeme onboard! -;)

I'll take the same approach - add stuff as the gigs come, and they have - rather rapidly.

Gunleik

[Obin Olson]

what type of work are you doing Gunleik?
PM a reply as I may not read this thread again

[Finner]

And I thought sales taxes were bad in Canada. Do you pay a 80% sales tax or are prices just 3 times more expensive in Norway then everywhere else? I just can't figure out how you can spend that much on a HVX camera rig?


Just for the pure info,

My HVX rig - without 35mm adapter - have cost me more than 30k$
And I knew that when I started to buy into it.

I hope the Red rig will end up bellow 60k$, but it is a moot point wether I spend 20k$ or 60k$ initially- as I was really considering a Varicam workflow before I saw the red coming -;)

And with Graeme onboard! -;)

I'll take the same approach - add stuff as the gigs come, and they have - rather rapidly.

Gunleik

[Jeff Kilgroe]

When I bought my HVX kit last year, I was a bit under $12K after the RedRock M2 and FF, Vocas mattebox, 2x8GB P2 cards, 2x4GB P2 cards, other accessories... And I didn't do it all at once since a lot of that stuff came available over a few months after I received the camera in February.

So taxes and/or import fees must be a complete killer over there....

Like Gunleik, I was seriously considering the Varicam or something on that level and price range as the next step from my HVX. So, I can get what I need and use Nikon lenses and come in cheap. Or I can spend a lot and get the RED 18-50, prime set, and the 300mm, 3 red drives, premium accessory kit and still come in about the same or a bit less than what I originally predicted for a Varicam setup.

RED is definitely going to have an impact on the prosumer market... Or at least the market at which the HVX and XLH1 currently target. There's a lot of people who settle for these cameras because there is no real good option between the HVX or XLH1 and the next step up... XDCAM, etc.. Panasonic is trying to fill the gap with the HPX-500, but I think they missed the mark. It's every bit as expensive as a basic RED kit by the time you buy a lens for it. But like I said, there's a lot of guys with a $25K to $35K camera budget who have settled for HVX200 and XLH1 systems because HDCAM and XDCAM or Varicam systems were still out of reach.

[pat@hpnc.com]

Well it does look like the Red One will take atleast some of at atleast the highend prosumer market.

[planet e]

sony's announcement of an $8,000 XDCAM EX is evidence that they are trying to find a niche in the RED market. it does look like an interesting camera, but i find it kinda funny that sony was making remarks about "real systems" and then proceeded to announce their own vaporware product at NAB. and there's panasonic's HPX5000....P2 still sounds like a crummy workflow, though.

but i think it's just the tip of the iceberg. as RED orders continue to pile up, i think we'll see the majors scrambling harder and faster. the competition is still playing catch up. we live in interesting times.

[Joel Kaye]

(Sony) then proceeded to announce their own vaporware product at NAB. and there's panasonic's HPX5000....P2 still sounds like a crummy workflow, though..

There's been an awful lot of people that figured out P2 wasn't all it was cracked up to be from a workflow standpoint now. I've sure heard a lot of complaints anyways. And the prices - well panasonic promised P2 prices would drop like a rock and bigger cards would be available fast. What a load of crap that turned out to be. Between that and "True 1080P" I'm not sure I'll ever believe another word Panasonic utters about anything.

Meantime, RED decides to use next generation, non-proprietary flash storage and eSata. It's hard not to love that attitude.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

sony's announcement of an $8,000 XDCAM EX is evidence that they are trying to find a niche in the RED market. it does look like an interesting camera, but i find it kinda funny that sony was making remarks about "real systems" and then proceeded to announce their own vaporware product at NAB. and there's panasonic's HPX5000....P2 still sounds like a crummy workflow, though.

I think Sony's XDCAM EX is more aimed to undercut the Panny HPX-500. Similarly spec'd camera, but lacks some of the features that many ENG types won't want or need anyway and comes in about $6K lower for the body.

As for P2 it's not a crummy workflow -- alright, using 4GB cards does suck, but 8GB are just fine for most uses. The problem with P2 has been all the missed delivery dates, false announcements and outright price-gouging. :ranting2: I think it's amusing how Panny slashes prices just before NAB when Sony leaks the XDCAM EX info. The HVX200 is a nice camera though. I've been very pleased with it, but have always been irritated over the P2 pricing. I even looked into having P2 cards manufactured and selling them under my own brand label. Sad thing was most of the manufacturers I approached on this had already done their homework of P2. Most were willing to jump right in and make P2 media (dirt cheap to produce and all common components), but Panasonic was being too restrictive on the licensing and ROM mark requirements. Given that, there was really no way to offer them at a significant discount, which translated into no real reason to invest in producing them in the first place. I see Hoodman and one other are now announcing 3rd-party P2 card products. But I think with the new P2 camera additions to the line, there's finally enough incentive for third-parties.

Another thing I find amusing is that for a camera that supposedly sells like hotcakes, I can't find anyone who wants to actually buy my HVX. Saw one go on ebay last week from a legit seller for $1800 and that included two 4GB P2 cards and Barry's book. That sale had to hurt...

[Roxco]

Unless you shoot full time and don't do your own post, coventional wisdom has been to buy the NLE system so you can access it at 2:AM, but only rent the cameras for the days you are shooting unless you are also going to use the camera to shoot your kids' soccer games.

I'm not sure the RED ONE's price has altered that wisdom...

IMHO Rosco

[David McMurry]

I'll agree that Red will inspire other camera manufacturer's to take notice, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the majors introduce a competing product. But I don't think Red is a prosumer killer by a long shot. As has been stated here elsewhere, I think it's more of a choice in place of a Varicam or a 900.

There's still plenty of room for the HVX (I'm keeping mine). I know several production comapnies that enjoy the cost savings of being able to rent an HVX for $250-$400 a day, without any extra lenses, an AC, etc. and still get an image that can look really fantastic when used correctly. The camera still fills the same spot it did 1 year ago; quick and easy acquisition of a higher quality image in a small and portable package.

Not saying the Red won't have it's fans, quite the contrary (I'm fan #1360), just that there will be plenty of jobs to keep the HVX busy for some time (just as there will be plenty of the same for Red).

[Gunleik Groven]

Should probably not say that loud here, but I'm considering both a 2nd HVX and an HPX-500, in addition to the Red, of course depending the need for those, but I don't really see the Red excluding those cams placein the market at all. (even the 500). Pricewise - yeah - sorta. For some uses, not really.

The workflow for Red that came out of NAB might just kill off the 500, though. Have to test it first hand first, though.

The ability to grab a cam and shoot quick in an acceptable format with decent images as a result, is a valuable one.

For F23, Varicam etc - that's another story.

Film was never my piece of cake, so I don't really care.

Gunleik

[Finner]

Should probably not say that loud here, but I'm considering both a 2nd HVX
Gunleik


Hey do I have a deal for you then. You mentioned you paid over $30k for your last HVX well I would be willing to sell you a brand new unused HVX still in the box for the low low price of $27,999. I can't see how you can let that deal pass you by.

[Gunleik Groven]

-;)

Wellit's probably NTSC, right ? -;)

There are soem extras in that box -;)
And european prices on some equipment is nearly 2 times american. Has nothing to dowith tax, get that returned, just how somehow 1$ is calculated into "sorta around 12 NOK. Do the calculus yourself.

In other words:
Man am I glad Red is a "world" cam?
And I think I'll go visit Jim & co to pick'er up.

Gunleik
Gunleik

[Karl H]

Obviously I havent used Red yet, but I have to say I would never take it on a standard corporate shoot I'd use a DVX/HVX.

I had a job yesterday using the good old DVX and there is just somethng sooooo easy about it. They are always long days and with a camera like that you barely have to worry about focus, changing lenses, motors for zooming,bulk, accessories. You can literally shove a soft light up and point and shoot; even as a single person crew. When at 6:00pm the client is still going - 'oooh and we need to you run into lecture theatre A and grab a shot of Betty from sales, and then we're in the canteen and we need to get a quote from the dinner lady, but we cant stay long as we're holding up the queue. Oh and I forgot to talk about our new 'teamwork goal 2008' pitch earlier, so we need to go back up to floor 8 and grab that line again, oh quick get a shot of Bobby before he walks out of that door..... and we close in 10 minutes....' Apart from screaming, I'm glad I'm not holding a cinema camera in my hand.

If I had Red, the shoot would have required more people and we'd have only got 1/3 of the shots done. Some of them may not have been possible or practical with a Red. Also what would have been the point? these videos dont deserve a Red camera :-)

So while some on here will use RED for ENG work, personally when I buy mine it wont be going near my 'film some manager sat at his desk talking about 15% profit margins' rubbish projects..... in all honestly, Id rather not go near them either - but what do you do?

[RobRoySyd]

There's another aspect to this discussion. While we're all focussed on how cameras such as RED will serve to lower the cost of production, by my reading of history that's never meant more money in the pockets of those using the cheaper tools that technology brings.
So RED could well have an impact on even mid level production. I can already hear the client's brains ticking over, kind of along the lines of "I've heard about this new RED camera slashing the cost of making a movie......"

[planet e]

most corporate video doesn't require more than a DVX (or, in our case, these spiffy Canon A1 cameras). we're not selling our A1s, but we do hope to be able to implement different tools for different jobs. and different price points as well. for corporate work, the A1 is a near-perfect camera. i'm not selling. i think the folks who are selling are the indie producers, for whom the RED will replace, rather than supplement, their existing cameras.

the reality in corporate video world is that we're still outputting to SD DVD and the web, and clients don't need 4K for that. or even 2K. heck, corporate outputs are just catching up finally to 1080, but only just....

i think we're not alone, though, in hoping that these new cameras will also allow us to open up new revenue streams for our biz....

i don't think sony is in as much trouble as people are thinking. i, too, wish they would move faster than they do, but many of us will still be outputting from RED to sony's (or panasonic's) proprietary formats for most of our deliverables....

sony's stock is actually finally on the move after two dormant, boring years in the dumps. usually, stock price moves anticipate earnings. camcorder sales are just a small slice for them. same with canon--camcorder success or failure doesn't have a tremendous impact on their bottom line. it's way more cumulative than that....

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Obviously I havent used Red yet, but I have to say I would never take it on a standard corporate shoot I'd use a DVX/HVX.

Er... But if you stick with the DVX/HVX, it's hard to differentiate a look from everyone else.


When at 6:00pm the client is still going - 'oooh and we need to you run into lecture theatre A and grab a shot of Betty from sales, and then we're in the canteen and we need to get a quote from the dinner lady, but we cant stay long as we're holding up the queue. Oh and I forgot to talk about our new 'teamwork goal 2008' pitch earlier, so we need to go back up to floor 8 and grab that line again, oh quick get a shot of Bobby before he walks out of that door..... and we close in 10 minutes....' Apart from screaming, I'm glad I'm not holding a cinema camera in my hand.

Yikes. I've done a couple shoots like that, in the beginning... Never again. Nowadays, I visit the shooting location a few days before with the client and we go over all the people, shots, etc.. I go meet everyone who I'll be pointing the camera at (if possible at that time) and make sure everyone is on the same page. I build a schedule and send it to the client for approval. When I show up, it's my shoot. If the client suddenly remembers something or if Betty from sales can't find her way to the lecture hall on time, it's on the client's dime. Actually, I've never had any troubles doing it this way and I've received a number of compliments on how well organized and how quick I shot everything. In reality, it wasn't me... I just made the client think about what we're going to do a few days in advance and then we wrote it down and let them put a signature to it. In this respect, I would not mind using RED at all.

It's your shoot, your time and it will also save everyone a lot of grief and possibly save the client money. Don't hesitate to take complete control. As soon as the customer starts doing the "oh, we forgot this..." or "now we need to go here and do this..." then there's a problem. Are they conducting the shoot or are you? May as well save yourself the time and just charge them a few bucks to rent the camera and they can run it themselves. Don't be afraid to be controlling. Raise your quality level and production standards, charge a bit more too. A few projects under your belt and word will get out that you charge a bit more, but you're worth it.


Also what would have been the point? these videos dont deserve a Red camera :-)

Oooh. Ouch. Really? I don't know about you, but if it's a product I'm going to stamp my name on, it had better look damn good. If I'm going to shoot something -- even some lowly corporate interview for a company that makes wet-application touch-up enamel for urinals, shot in a men's restroom, I'm going to make it look as good as I possibly can.


personally when I buy mine it wont be going near my 'film some manager sat at his desk talking about 15% profit margins' rubbish projects..... in all honestly, Id rather not go near them either - but what do you do?

To each their own, but for me I take my best gear and produce the best quality video of a talking head that I can. Produce a superior product and you will earn respect, repeat business, etc.. But that's just me, I don't look at such jobs as the "crap I have to do to pay the bills". No, it's another service I can provide and I can command a premium price for it because I can do it better than anyone else in town.

...Not to bash the DVX/HVX though. Still both good cameras with their place in the world. Perhaps I just have a different outlook on corporate video since that's all I've done for the past 2 years with a couple long-term contracts. Mostly I used the DVX/HVX... I wish I would have had something like RED. If nothing else, the wow factor with clients would be worth it. ;)

[Michael Schrengohst]

I want to see what RED's "Professional Pocket" camera looks like.
I was thinking of getting a Canon HV20 for family videos - for a grand
you can't go to wrong....I am afraid the RED PP will cost a little more than that. The RED PP is probably going after the $5K-$10 camera market.

[Michael Schrengohst]

...Not to bash the DVX/HVX though. Still both good cameras with their place in the world. Perhaps I just have a different outlook on corporate video since that's all I've done for the past 2 years with a couple long-term contracts. Mostly I used the DVX/HVX... I wish I would have had something like RED. If nothing else, the wow factor with clients would be worth it. ;)

I edit many other shooters works....
I have pleaded and begged most of them to dump
the BetaSP equipment. Many have and have gone to
the HVX - some call it the "transitional" camera.
I have shown some of them everything about the RED
and most roll their eyes and say - Whats next???
Many of these shooters were waiting to see what came
out of NAB and they are now wanting more RED info.....
Place your order now and you might see it next year....
So here they go again....at least I can probably get
in a bunch of rental days with these guys until they
decide to go RED.:wink:

[donatello b]

if you have corporate clients that pay 200-250 day for a DVX ( or that price for any camera )- and all they want is SD ( or what ever they currently use) and they are more then happy with quality ...
how do you move them to RED ?
why would they want to pay 750-1000 day for camera ?
or do you give them the RED at DVX price ??
or for special price - X $ more per day ?

so would this end up one would have several rates for the RED?
corporate rate ( low, med , & high budget clients = 3 different rates ?)
commercial rate,
feature rate
no budget rate
wedding rate
or will there be one rate for RED = X per day doesn't matter cliest/project?

[Steve Gibby]

When I produce/direct corporate media projects, and I've done a lot of them for large international companies, they now invariably ask for them to be done in HD - because the highest and best use of those projects is for trade show and exhibition display on plasma and LCD panels. An HD master can always be down-rezzed for SD and web delivery, thus leveraging the client's projects down through multiple resolutions and applications. I attend expos and trade shows regularly, in fact I just finished walking all around NAB for several days, and the number of SD monitors/productions used at NAB was almost nil. My corporate clients also want to future proof themselves and their footage by having it in HD resolutions. I don't intend to use or recommend SD for any of my corporate client's productions, and yes, I'll re-lens, and re-accessorize my REDs, and use them for those projects.

The business media production industry is enormous. My average turnkey HD business media project bids for between $2,500 and $4,500 per finished minute, depending on the "bells & whistles" desired. With 50% down to open the contract, 50% upon delivery, and an average profit margin of about 45%, business media is a superb "cash cow". One big project and you can pay off your entire RED One system. I'd suggest RED adopters re-think their attitudes and prejudices about business media production. If it pays for your RED system, and then helps finance your pet genre projects, I'd say that's a good thing.

When the RED Professional Pocket Camera delivers, and if it is a more logical tool for my business media projects, I'll shift those projects from my RED One down to my RED PPC. I have absolutely no knowledge that the RED PPC will be able to handle business media production as one of its uses. We'll see...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

if you have corporate clients that pay 200-250 day for a DVX ( or that price for any camera )- and all they want is SD ( or what ever they currently use) and they are more then happy with quality ...
how do you move them to RED ?

Find better clients. Seriously, at $250/day, that's $25/hour assuming a 10 hour day, which most days are if you want to get something done. Time to ask yourself what you and your services are worth... If that's what the client is paying for a camera, then fine... $150/day is fair rental for an HVX, if they're just renting the camera and paying on a day by day basis for a few days. $1K / week for an HVX seems to be going rate, or at least it was a few months ago. And that's a bare camera with a UV protective filter over the lens and a case to put it in when you're not using it.

So, figuring that, if you're including yourself in that rate and providing a service at that price, then I'm confused. If you're providing editing and finished product at such a rate, then I'm going to start subbing out to you and marking up your services. I've got enough work to keep you busy from now until the end of the decade.


why would they want to pay 750-1000 day for camera ?
or do you give them the RED at DVX price ??
or for special price - X $ more per day ?

The camera doesn't come into the equation on the client's end... It does for my own budget figures when buying new gear, but that's not really the issue at hand. I provide a service for my clients and I continuously update my equipment and tools to deliver a product that differentiates me from my competitors. I block my time in half-day increments and I quote a project based on the number of days required. My day rates are based on my average projected work load, expenses, desired profit margin, etc..


so would this end up one would have several rates for the RED?
corporate rate ( low, med , & high budget clients = 3 different rates ?)
commercial rate,
feature rate
no budget rate
wedding rate
or will there be one rate for RED = X per day doesn't matter cliest/project?

I'm not saying my business model will work for anyone else, but I'm pretty simple. I have my base daily rate I already mentioned. I will bring all the tools in my arsenal that I see fit (even more if I can fit them in, just in case). My time is worth a certain amount to me, my family and the best interest in my business. I don't go trying to undercut the next guy just to get a job and later lose my ass if it falls apart. Most jobs are figured at that base rate and then I'll add on additional expenses if needed -- added personnel (gaffer, sound tech, grips). Longer term or more complex projects like a feature would get special treatment. ...I don't do weddings.

But if you're showing up to shoot video at someone's business with your HVX and accessory gear and only charging $250/day (assuming 8 to 10 hours), that's nuts. You may as well cut them a break and charge $150/day, hand them the camera and say "I'll be back at 5:00 to pick up the camera". Then you can go flip burgers or stuff tacos and you'll make more money -- and it's steady, work, probably guaranteed if you just show up on time and sober.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The business media production industry is enormous. My average turnkey HD business media project bids for between $2,500 and $4,500 per finished minute, depending on the "bells & whistles" desired. With 50% down to open the contract, 50% upon delivery, and an average profit margin of about 45%, business media is a superb "cash cow". One big project and you can pay off your entire RED One system. I'd suggest RED adopters re-think their attitudes and prejudices about business media production. If it pays for your RED system, and then helps finance your pet genre projects, I'd say that's a good thing.

This is exactly why I'm buying RED. I'm not sure where some of these attitudes are coming from. I've spent the last two years doing almost nothing but corporate video work. The HVX doesn't cut it anymore, clients want their video to look awesome on that 50" plasma at their show booth. My biggest clients are the local mountain resort community, local casinos and small-stakes gambling industry and the auto body / collision repair industry. All of them are willing to go the extra distance to get HD production and look better than their competitor that's two booths over. I was ready to buy a Varicam setup or something of that level and then RED happened. The added bonus of RED being an incredible cinematic tool is just icing on the cake.

Even if you spend most of your time with small companies, small projects and low budget advertising who just wants SD only, there's no reason to not make your product look good. Shoot in HD, give yourself a professional image in the eyes of your client. Give them options, perhaps you'll receive more word of mouth business. Don't sell yourself short, charge rates according to what you're worth. If you're shooting with an SD prosumer camcorder and editing in iMovie (and I know some are), then great... If your'e happy with that. But if you price yourself low and only feed off the bottom of the food chain, then you'll probably always be a bottom feeder. But if you want to build a business, then by all means go and build it.

[donatello b]

200-250 is for camera only ..
imo there is camera rental day rate and work day rate = they are separate ...

but i have seen persons working for 250 day including HVX ...
there are those very low paying jobs and somebody does have to do em ...
that's where newer persons get experience ...
i remember shooting film for FREE many times back in early 80's to get experience ....

[Jeff Kilgroe]

200-250 is for camera only ..
imo there is camera rental day rate and work day rate = they are separate ...

OK. Makes much more sense that way. $200-250 is pretty good for an HVX kit on a dialy basis. The local rental houses don't charge that much, so if you can get that, you're doing fine on that end. Hopefully you've found a viable market for your services to go along with the camera.


but i have seen persons working for 250 day including HVX ...

Scary.


there are those very low paying jobs and somebody does have to do em ...

Do they? I know it's about choice... I've done my share of favors and charitable work too. But even when I was a video noob, just a few years ago really, I never felt the need to go dumpster diving for work. I don't need to take garbage jobs to practice, I'll go practice doing my own thing and then go after a bigger client. I guess everyone's perspective differs, but I already had an established consulting company doing multimedia and custom software development. So it's not like I just picked up a camera and said "hey, I need to whore myself out to pay for this $3500 DVX".


that's where newer persons get experience ...
i remember shooting film for FREE many times back in early 80's to get experience ....

Like I said, perspectives. I've shot a few shorts and one feature... All for free, but it's a hobby and I enjoy doing it. I've never shot film for free... Unless you count the 16mm stuff I shot in college as a member of the film & cinematography club. The club did a lot of stuff for the school, alumni and contributors. But that's how we kept the funding rolling in so we could make our next version of "Donut Shop Cop Killers from Venus". I refused to put my name in the credits on that one.... As did just about everyone else, I think all our actors used aliases. And no, it wasn't porn. :matrix:

[Karl H]

Hey Jeff,

I had a bad day....lol

I see what you're saying but it doesnt work like that with the clients I have. Most of my work is done on behalf of an agency, so it isnt on my time to turn up the day before and plan anything. I'm hired to turn up, shoot, and then edit the thing under the agencies timetable. To do my best on the day. A lot of freelance cameramen I'm sure will have experienced the same.

If you can manage to plan the clients, all power to you, but in my experience this has been an impossible task. No matter how many timesheets you have they get ruined, added too, ammended on the day. Its not my position to turn round and say 'no we cant do that now because I dont have time to set up my lights, camera and followfocus', you have to be flexible and just get the shot in the bag.... thats part of what I hate but almost the mantra for general corporate work - quality sacraficed for content; unless you're workng at the high end. A lot of them cant even tell the difference between interlaced and progressive footage; their eyes focus on politcal content and not aesthetics. Granted, it sounds like your clients are better than mine, but Red is overkill and more to the point would hold-up my day to day work.

I used to have real enthusiasm for my job, I've been working in corporate video for over 10 yeas and I have to say I could probably count the number of 'interesting' projects on two hands. Its often the way that the time spent on a creative or fully fledged pitch is wasted because clients more-than-likely want a corporate video thats looks exactly like someone elses they have seen.

You have to remember that the sheer beast of corporate is about the bottom line. Every image on the screen, every converyed messge is all geared to that. Almost all creative pitches are dismissed in favour of going after the lowest common denominator. Nothing can be subtle. The work is middle ground because to be edgy exlcudes some of their audiences. To me it's like a wedding, you choose middle of the road music to suit all ages, you give a best man's speech which doesnt offend anyone. That's the same philospohy as 99% of corporate clients. So maybe I have become jaded, but only through experience of knowing what the client wants and does not want. Unfortunately, they dont want the good stuff :-) If you think your clients would benefit from 4K cinema quality footage and 35mm DOF, then I'm happy for you. You must be filming something quite interesting.

But getting back to useability, a while ago I was asked to put together quite a big project. It was one of the more creative pieces I've had to work on and had a 6 figure budget. But we had only 3 hours with the MD on the day. no more. We hired a big fancy mansion for the location.. I was supposed to be directing (within limits) and there was a big camera crew there with all the gubbings. I essentially turned up with the DVX aswell as a b-camera and to get some more intersting hand-held footage of the MD.

But actually what happened was that most of the A footage came from the DVX. And that was all due to time. I told the main camerman that we needed to move to room B, get a quick shot of MD looking around before we needed to move into room C. It was no fault of his own, but by the time he'd moved his camera into location with his set-up it was just too late. I got the shot on my dvx and moved into the next location. Using the DVX I managed to get a lot more 'artsy' shots than would have been possible otherwise in many more rooms in the house. Red would not have been practical..

Conversely, If you are filming Mr urinal deliver his quarterly results from the toilet (I'd love to do that job!) which ends up on an intranet as a 320x240 mpg, I just dont see the purpose of the Red camera here.

Im not dissing corporate, far from it, its my bread and butter. Red will have its uses but for me it will be limited in the corporate world. I'd love to say the opposite because that would mean we had time and money to make it look good. Our clients do not have the time, or the vision.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I had a bad day....lol

Heh. I'm having one right now, but that's for another thread. :angry2: Anyway...


I see what you're saying but it doesnt work like that with the clients I have. Most of my work is done on behalf of an agency, so it isnt on my time to turn up the day before and plan anything. I'm hired to turn up, shoot, and then edit the thing under the agencies timetable. To do my best on the day. A lot of freelance cameramen I'm sure will have experienced the same.

In some ways, this shows my own inexperience.. I've only done the freelance cameraman thing on two occasions. One started out as a total disaster, but turned into one of the coolest projects I've ever done. The other started out looking to be a great job and turned into a disaster. After those two, I said to myself "never again". And haven't done it since... The one that started out as a disaster was I showed up to shoot video for a TV commercial, this was for a local casino. Turns out that some management type hated the script and threw it away. Like 2 minutes before I arrived. The writer / director and guy who hired me walked... But casino management asked me to stay and work with them, so I did. We improvised two TV spots in two days. I decided no more sub-contract / freelance cameraman for me. I wanted to be in control. So I market myself to the same clientele that a lot of these larger agencies do and I've been able to do rather well with it. I've landed some long-term contracts out of it, just came off two projects that kept me busy for over a year.

But from where I was coming from, I'm providing a full package of service or a complete product from start to finish. I am the agency, director, camera man, editor, etc... I have subcontractors that work for me if needed (extra lighting, sound, etc.). I've had employees off and on, currently no actual employees... Just my brother who is my part-time business partner, but I might add a few people early next year after RED arrives and I pick up some more projects. Lately I've been making most of my money with 3D prototyping and product renderings as I do a lot of graphics work here. I won't be doing any video for at least the next 30 to 60 days as I just picked up a huge arch-viz 3D project.

[Jason Murphy]

Another fallout from RED in the prosumer market, and something which it doesn't seem that anyone's commented on yet is the trickle-down effect as far as image quality is concerned.

It may take some time to happen since RED has vaulted ahead of the competition's product cycle by several years, but if RED is successful across both the professional and the prosumer markets, you're going to see Sony/Panasonic/Canon, etc. taking notes from RED design/workflow (which I'm sure they are anyway at this point), putting some of RED's feature set (or their equivalent) into their prosumer lines, and pushing image quality upwards.

Of course, this is a natural progression, and will happen anyway, but RED will almost definitely have the effect of speeding this up.