OBAMA thread!!!

[George A.]

Hey,

I was reading the "OBAMA WON" thread and it suddenly disappeared while I was in the middle of it. What the heck is that? I hate when that happens.

[number6]

It was voted off the island.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hey,

I was reading the "OBAMA WON" thread and it suddenly disappeared while I was in the middle of it. What the heck is that? I hate when that happens.

okay - you can have it back - I find it a bit offensive ...

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Hmmm....

[R. Schorman]

racism will do that

might leave it alone for now

[Mark L. Pederson]

In fact - I'm killing it again right now - if Jarred wants it back he can restore it -

[g3nov3s3]

Unfortunately, the day when Obama was elected was also the day when freedom of speech died in America....

[Obin Olson]

freedom of speach?? what on earth makes you say that.....weird

[number6]

Hmmm....

No, I haven't seen The Mist. I don't watch movies that often and not too much TV if I can help it.

But because you alluded to it after quoting my "Humans, go figure" comment, I have to admit that I am intrigued.:detective2:

[Leo Ticheli]

Unfortunately, the day when Obama was elected was also the day when freedom of speech died in America....

g3nov3s3,

You have absolute freedom of speech in the public square and under the next administration you will continue to enjoy it.

What I hope you will find, however, is an ever decreasing number of people who subscribe to your racist speech.

Perhaps you may have many redeeming attributes, but I find the ideas you have expressed here loathsome.

Sincerely,

Leo Ticheli

[mikeburton]

Mark, I agree, the thread is offensive and getting slightly out of control. But some of us would like to disagree reasonably without throwing ratial hatred in the face of others.
However, if dissmissing and making these things "dissapear" is a sign of what's to come with our rights to speak freely I am sadened. I realize Reduser is not always a democracy and as moderator you have every right to suspend the thread but please allow us to make up our own minds as to what is appropriate and what is intolerable. Just sayin.

[Anthony Gratl]

okay - you can have it back - I find it a bit offensive ...

Look, Mark, I respect your viewpoint, but the role as moderator is to moderate, not to pull threads that you find personally offensive. What you are doing IS limiting free speech. Can't have it both ways man....it's not democracy OR freedom of thought....

[number6]

g3nov3s3,

You have absolute freedom of speech in the public square and under the next administration you will continue to enjoy it.

What I hope you will find, however, is an ever decreasing number of people who subscribe to your racist speech.

Perhaps you may have many redeeming attributes, but I find the ideas you have expressed here loathsome.

Sincerely,

Leo Ticheli

Leo, you forgot to say "Best Regards and Good Shooting Everyone"

You must really be mad.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Meryem Ersoz]

This forum is a privately owned company and a privately owned space, and the company has the right to decide what values they want represented.

Free speech in a public domain is not the same thing as freedom of expression in a privately held space. Why are people constantly confusing the world wide web with the sidewalk?

[mikeburton]

g3nov3s3,

You have absolute freedom of speech in the public square and under the next administration you will continue to enjoy it.

What I hope you will find, however, is an ever decreasing number of people who subscribe to your racist speech.

Perhaps you may have many redeeming attributes, but I find the ideas you have expressed here loathsome.

Sincerely,

Leo Ticheli

Agreed! Well put Leo! We can disagree with passion but hatred has no tolerance.

[number6]

This forum is a privately owned company and a privately owned space, and the company has the right to decide what values they want represented.

Free speech in a public domain is not the same thing as freedom of expression in a privately held space. Why are people constantly confusing the world wide web with the sidewalk?

I think Mike Burton and Evolve were only expressing an opinion... not threatening to sue or anything.

[Rick Darge]

Obama Still Won!!

[number6]

Obama Still Won!!

Oh yeah... almost forgot.:biggrin:

[George A.]

Ah... was it closed because of racism?... I was just in the middle of it and didn't have the chance to finish the whole thread ... I tried to click on the next page and suddenly it was gone...

[Priyesh P.]

This forum is a privately owned company and a privately owned space, and the company has the right to decide what values they want represented.

Free speech in a public domain is not the same thing as freedom of expression in a privately held space. Why are people constantly confusing the world wide web with the sidewalk?

can only second that. in my office there`s no freedom of speech as well, if I don`t like the topic it`s forbidden - so why should reduser do differently?

[mikeburton]

I think Mike Burton and Evolve were only expressing an opinion... not threatening to sue or anything.

LOL. I clearly stated that I know well enough that Reduser is NOT a democracy! "(We have the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude)".
All I was attempting to say is, don't let one bad apple ruin the bunch. If there is someone who is clearly stirring up trouble and doesn't contribute to this forum in a positive way, ban him! But it would be great if the rest of us that choose to discuss these issues could continue without hatred. I believe this can happen here.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to say, "Yes we can" :-)-

[Jeff Kilgroe]

All I was attempting to say is, don't let one bad apple ruin the bunch. If there is someone who is clearly stirring up trouble and doesn't contribute to this forum in a positive way, ban him!

Agreed. 1 appropriate measure has already been taken.

As for the other thread, Mark removed it, so I'll leave that decision in his capable hands.

Carry on... Just keep it civilized.

[Meryem Ersoz]

...fyi, Mike, you did mention "our rights to speak freely" - so I don't know how deeply you are misinterpreting my mis-interpretation:wacko: heh.

I'm not happy, necessarily, that they pulled the thread, although there were a couple of over-the-top comments -- just that they are right to have their company values represented however they see fit.

It's always amazing to me how one wind-sucking comment can have this kind of broad impact. What was lovely about last night was the wind-suckers seemed to have taken a temporary vacation. They were elsewhere, listening the only inspiring speech that McCain has made in six months, booing and shaking their torches and pitchforks, while the rest of America partied and wept with relief.

[Nick Wolf]

Closing the thread would have served the purpose of demonstating clearly what is exceptable and not here...

However erasing it all together for none to see again is something else...Only Mark knows whats in his heart of hearts.

Things are never black & white...

Deleting only confirms the old adage about the pen being mightier than the sword.


DogDay.

[Sean]

When I saw Jesse Jackson crying, it really came home for me. I got a serious lump in my throat. Besides the fact that I think Obama is an intelligent, principled leader, I just realized how incredibly symbolic it was too. A true turning point in a 300-hundred year history, and that really, really moved me. I hope there's something he can actually do now that the country is severely in debt and still at war. Ouch.

[Leo Ticheli]

Something to consider...

These issues, the struggle for the very soul of America, have been with me ever since I stood at the Capitol steps in Montgomery Alabama after the Selma march.

I've been fortunate enough to be a small part of the movement and I've had the honor to interview many of the heros of the struggle.

I've just read something important, something highly significant, a letter by Peggy Wallace Kennedy, the daughter of Governor George Wallace. It can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/03/wallace.kennedy.obama/index.html

Even though we still have a long way to go in my region of the country, this was significant.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Jarred Land]

g3nov3s3 just got his sorry ass banned.

This is a private forum btw... and this is exactly why we dont talk about politics.


Look, Mark, I respect your viewpoint, but the role as moderator is to moderate, not to pull threads that you find personally offensive. What you are doing IS limiting free speech. Can't have it both ways man....it's not democracy OR freedom of thought....

Im with Mark on this one, sorry Evolve.

[C.H.Haskell]

I dont understand why that thread disappeared...and I am not going to loose sleep over it ;) If we shut down every thread cause someone got their feelings hurt then what would Reduser be? Mark... maybe delete the actual insulting post instead the entire thread?

Anyways...the point is, America has changed and thank you again to everyone for writing history and making me for the 1st time in a long time proud to be an American. New York city was so alive last night, people screaming and running in the streets...taxi laying on the horn, fire works in the sky...complete strangers hugging each other...yes we can.

One of the greatest nights of my life. There is no doubt a long road ahead of us but we are in this together. Cheers.

Clayton Haskell

[Dominic Cochran]

Man I hate it when you guys delete threads. Just lock it down man, wtf?

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Why not just delete the racist\offensive posts?

My 2c.

[number6]

Something to consider...

These issues, the struggle for the very soul of America, have been with me ever since I stood at the Capitol steps in Montgomery Alabama after the Selma march.

I've been fortunate enough to be a small part of the movement and I've had the honor to interview many of the heros of the struggle.



Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

Leo, maybe as a witness to history... someone should interview you?

[Tom Lowe]

Maybe the best thing would simply be to make a rule that says "No Politics" and "No Religion" talk? Then these decisions won't need to be made.

[A. Bastaki]

I'd lock the Obama Won thread if it was getting seriously out of control... delete/edit some posts. It's sad how it was deleted though. but i've been there.. being a mod can be a tough job.

[Petr Dvorak]

man i hate it when you guys delete threads. Just lock it down man, wtf?

ditto

[Medavoym]

In principle, I agree with those who said the thread shouldn't have been deleted. Why delete an entire thread (especially in the "Off Topic" section where people can discuss in a civilized manner whatever they want) when it's so simple to delete the stupid remarks/ban their author? Everyone else besides that guy was being extremely civilized. Even the answers to the racist guys were polite and respectful (great answer from Leo!) - I was personally quite impressed with the quality of the discussion. I was not that impressed with the decision to delete the thread arbitrarily.

People were just expressing their emotions on a historic night, and everyone was enjoying contributing to the thread ... Some guy posted a few stupid comment so everybody else got punished?... It doesn't make sense. Closing the thread completely said something as important as someone posting racist comments on a rather nice thread...

[Patrick Tresch]

Please make this historical thread online and close it instead of deleting it...

So I can reread my posts :bleh:

[10s]

Unfortunately, the day when Obama was elected was also the day when freedom of speech died in America....

Think about it, banning g3nov3s3 for saying this (above) gives credibility to his statement. Obviously he won't be able to speak freely here, -- oh the irony!

It's best to let people speak freely, especially in the Off Topic section.

Interesting fact:
Vote Count

OBAMA: 63,042,806...
MCCAIN: 55,821,650...

The numbers are pretty close so I would suspect a representative ratio is here in this forum as well.

It's OK to have differences and say things that might offend me or even you!, just like it's OK to be a different color or a different gender, or even to use a F900 or a Dalsa. Are some of us so undeveloped that we are unable to tolerate statements we disagree with?

[George A.]

Think about it, banning g3nov3s3 for saying this (above) gives credibility to his statement.

It's best to let people speak freely, especially in the Off Topic section.



Agreed.

[mikeburton]

[QUOTE=It's OK to have differences and say things that might offend me or even you!, just like it's OK to be a different color or a different gender, or even to use a F900 or a Dalsa. Are some of us so undeveloped that we are unable to tolerate statements we disagree with?[/QUOTE]

It wasn't that statement that got him banned. It was in another thread that got deleted and the remark was intolerable by majority.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Think about it, banning g3nov3s3 for saying this (above) gives credibility to his statement. Obviously he won't be able to speak freely here, -- oh the irony!

That is not why I banned him. Some of us draw the line at racial slurs and insults. This is what led to the other thread turning into a mess and it was removed.

Let's take a minute and re-visit the rules of conduct around here...

1. We will delete posts sometimes for any number of reasons.

2. We will not delete criticism or opinion.

3. We will delete posts that would get you punched in the nose if you were to say the same thing in the "real" world.

4. We will delete untrue posts that are slanderous, to a company or an individual.

5. Posts that are not on topic or that drift off topic, will be moved to the proper location.

6. Remember.. you are visiting our house, so above all.. please be respectful.

Take a look at #3 on that list. If g3nov3s3 were to say what he said in the 'real world', in the presence of myself or many of my fellow Americans. He would have received a lot worse than a punch in the nose.

[Medavoym]

Jeff,

I totally agree with banning that individual... his comments crossed many lines. I also agree with deleting his posts - racial bigotry shouldn't be tolerated here or anywhere else.

However, as far as the rules of conduct are concerned, deleting whole threads is not mentioned anywhere. Especially at #3 above.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Fair enough, objection noted. But at this time, I'm not going to second-guess one of the other moderators.

[Finner]

3. We will delete posts that would get you punched in the nose if you were to say the same thing in the "real" world.

Take a look at #3 on that list. If g3nov3s3 were to say what he said in the 'real world', in the presence of myself or many of my fellow Americans. He would have received a lot worse than a punch in the nose.

Have you even read some of the posts I made in the past Jeff? If rule 3 was followed to the letter of the law 98% of my posts would be deleted.

[Nick Wolf]

Why sow seeds of discontent? Its obvious people want the thread back...A petty matter has now become a symbolic tug of war.

If its a clash of wills at play here for its own sake then its all about power and considering this moment in History I personally think the people should decide.

It was beautiful how the majority of the community rose up no matter which side they voted for and made an explicit point that RACE IS NOT AN ISSUE ANY LONGER and that it is a matter of competence and other factors...Not Color!!!

Those reactions are a testament and should be left as an example of how Idiocy will be met here.


DogDay.

[Roberto B]

That is not why I banned him. Some of us draw the line at racial slurs and insults. This is what led to the other thread turning into a mess and it was removed.

Let's take a minute and re-visit the rules of conduct around here...


Take a look at #3 on that list. If g3nov3s3 were to say what he said in the 'real world', in the presence of myself or many of my fellow Americans. He would have received a lot worse than a punch in the nose.ehehehehehe.. perfect.. 100% agreed.

and not only your/our fellow americans.. :pirate:

[Finner]

It was beautiful how the majority of the community rose up no matter which side they voted for and made an explicit point that RACE IS NOT AN ISSUE ANY LONGER and that it is a matter of competence and other factors...Not Color!!!

Exactly,

In the wise words of Nigel Powers. "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch."

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Have you even read some of the posts I made in the past Jeff? If rule 3 was followed to the letter of the law 98% of my posts would be deleted.

Daren, that may be true.. Actually it is true. But like all "laws", interpretation is subjective in the eyes of those who enforce them. This obviously varies based on who is involved and on the circumstances. For what it's worth, many of us around here enjoy your comments, even the crude ones. You have never lowered yourself to racial slurs or racist insults.

I'm inclined to agree with the majority here that removing the entire thread was probably over the top. OTOH, I fully respect Mark's judgement and decision and leave it up to him or Jarred to reinstate the thread, if they so choose. Personally, and this is from a moderator point of view, I'm perfectly happy with the thread being gone. I'm also looking forward to this thread being locked and I bet it will happen in the not too distant future, not necessarily by me.

The continuous "free speech" rhetoric gets tiresome and it comes up every time any thread (or even some individual posts) are edited, deleted or even just moved. The point is, free speech is a fine thing, when used in moderation and this is not an open free-for-all venue. It is a privately owned and operated community for discussing all things pertaining to RED Digital Cinema. Some topics of discussion do not belong here, not even in the "off topic" forum area.

[David Mullen ASC]

I think it is proper to delete a particularly or unusually offensive post rather than have it temporarily immortalized (a contradictory term, I know) on the internet - that gives the offensive post, perhaps made on a whim, far too much significance and sours the tone of the site for those who pass by the post when visiting the site.

This is a privately-owned, moderated site so notions of free speech have to take that into account. Anyway, there are so many other sites where people can post all sorts of offensive comments as often as they wish.

[number6]

Exactly,

In the wise words of Nigel Powers. "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch."

Finner, I will defend the right for you to say what you said to the death (yours, not mine) 'CAUSE IT'S FUNNY!:)

[Steve Gibby]

When RED User was first launched way beck in December 2005, and for about the first five months of 2006, I was a moderator here until I got too dang busy with real world work. FWIW if those type of racial bigot comments were made on a RED User thread when I was moderating this board, I would have taken the exact same course of action that Offhollywood (Mark) took, and affirmed it the same way the other moderators, Jeff and David have.

We're a big, diverse, worldwide family here on RED User - and let's keep this a place of respect, sharing, and knowledge exchange.

Two thoughts about thinking before you post:

"When you speak you learn nothing. But when you listen, you learn what others know".

And a further thought on that:

"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt"

----------------------

As for Finner, well, Finner is Finner. The dude is funny - and he's right, a lot of his posts probably do violate Rule #3 of the RU Rules of Conduct! Then again, though he may bash entire sections of the motion media industry in a tongue in cheek way, he has never stooped to racial slurs and personal insults. Me and him rarely agree on some subjects - but we're still friends and we have mutual respect for each other. That's the way this board should work when people disagree - talk about it, present your views, and remember to still give respect to others.

[George A.]

The thing is... let's suppose EPIC gets announced... people start talking about it excitedly... the thread goes on for 20 pages... some nut logs in and says something stupid or racist or whatever...

Do you delete the entire thread, along with all the other responsible comments (99%)?... That is the question. It's not about free speech on reduser.

[Steve Gibby]

A tech-laden thread on Epic and an Off Topic thread on politics are two very different situations. In the case of the Epic thread you described, yes, as a moderator I would simply delete the offensive troll posts. But in the case of a political thread that inevitably would fuel hard feelings, when it got out of hand I'd treat it just as Offhollywood did.

[Nick Wolf]

Its called throwing the baby out with the bath water...Use white out no need to shred.

Unless of course there is something else in there that gets conveniently squashed at the same time...

The guy is banned, delete his remarks, and let the other spontaneous constructive contributions about this incredible moment in history remain untampered.

Its not about freedom of speech its about hidden agendas. Call a spade a spade, its not about the racial slur! Because that could have been dealt with in another way=without erasing everything else that was interesting and pertinent to the conversation.


DogDay.

[10s]

Free Speech: The Ancient Greeks championed freedom of speech. On their tiny rocky islands they traded with all sorts of cultures with differing politics and Gods, and from this clash of culture came the traditions of Western civilization. The Greek tradition gave us philosophy, democracy, science, art, mathematics and so on. All of this resulted from unbridled, and yes, it was passionate at times, speech.


Racial Slurs: Last year I took some time away from teaching college and helped my 26 year old son shoot a RAP video. It was interesting & fun helping out and working with the artists and their community of friends, but all I heard every five seconds on set was a racial slur, from one participant to another. They were really enjoying themselves slurring each other. I noticed it was the norm for how they talk to one another, whether I was there or not. For me it was an eye opener. I thought about this for a while. Sometimes I think this sensitivity thing we have is overblown, it appears as some sort of strange white problem about trying to be moral or at least trying to appear moral, I'm not quite sure yet. The folks on the RAP set had no problems at all speaking freely -- but they were also well armed, at one point the cops appeared, but just drove on by without stopping. What's this have to do with this thread? I don't know, other than sometimes we make mountains out of mole hills and we might want to consider that each of us here do not come from the same micro culture/communities nor do we share the same standards of communication. I certainly didn't with the Rappers but I still enjoyed them as people.

OBAMA: As an American, I hope Obama can help this country and the rest of the world get back to good old fashion free market Capitalism, just like the folks at RED have been practicing, no government hand outs or irrational regulations. May the best succeed so the rest of us can profit from their productive inventiveness and in return, we can reward them with our hard earned dollars. May those that create worthless products (think many on Wall Street) find employment for their talents elsewhere and may government keep their nose out of the affairs of free people as the founders intended. My fear is that Obama is deeply schooled in Socialism and will take this country down this dead end road, the same road the rest of the world abandoned a while ago. He said all we need is hope, I agree, I hope he's wise enough to keep the American Experiment alive.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I think it is proper to delete a particularly or unusually offensive post rather than have it temporarily immortalized (a contradictory term, I know) on the internet - that gives the offensive post, perhaps made on a whim, far too much significance and sours the tone of the site for those who pass by the post when visiting the site.

This is a privately-owned, moderated site so notions of free speech have to take that into account. Anyway, there are so many other sites where people can post all sorts of offensive comments as often as they wish.

Thanks for this post David.

[Dominic Cochran]

Thanks for this post David.

Yes, but unfortunately it's at risk of being deleted if some degenerate decides to try to derail an otherwise good thread.

[Dj Joofa]

I would have taken the exact same course of action that Offhollywood (Mark) took, and affirmed it the same way the other moderators, Jeff and David have.


That is not the best approach IMHO. It is not easy to handle power and moderators have to exercise restraint, since any abrupt action is also taken as "insult to the intelligence" of the other forum members as they feel "left out."

As this forum allows users to edit their comments, the moderator should have followed this sequence in my opinion:

(1) Talked to the user privately (using pm) and encouraged the user to either edit, or delete the comments,
(2) If the user persisted, then a warning issued to the user (privately) that their comments will be purged, shortly,
(3) If the user still persisted, then the comments purged, with moderators name and reason why it was done, substituted instead. All comments by other forum members remained.
(4) A formal appeal to the other members to realize that this option was done as a last recourse after exhausting other options.

This forum should also allow moderators to be rated on the exercise of their discretionary powers. Gosh, why do they rate TAs and profs at the universities? -- so that self reflection and criticism makes one a better judge in the exercise of power.

[Joe D'Arcym]

Mark I support your decision to delete the thread. As Gibby stated, it was a conflict about politics not about which lense or workflow is superior etc.
You can't underestimate the weight of a racial slur on an international forum.

[Medavoym]

Thanks for this post David.


Yes, but unfortunately it's at risk of being deleted if some degenerate decides to try to derail an otherwise good thread.

Post of the day.


Mark I support your decision to delete the thread. As Gibby stated, it was a conflict about politics not about which lense or workflow is superior etc.
You can't underestimate the weight of a racial slur on an international forum.

I agree with the second part. Those racial posts should have been deleted - no question about that! About the first part of your statement --

First - the thread was NOT a conflict about politics (just one racist guy posting a few racist comments while all the other posters behaved very nicely)
Second - the thread was in the "Off Topic" section, where generally nobody discusses lenses or workflows. That's why it's called "Off Topic".

[Brook Willard]

You guys are ridiculous.

[Medavoym]

You guys are ridiculous.

On behalf of everyone who disagreed with deleting the thread, I thank you for the compliment Brook.

:tongue:

Just joking...

On a more serious note, everyone knows this discussion is more or less academic. No need to call anyone ridiculous... unless you were joking as well.

:tongue:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/535_1211654489.gif