RED One "Video Village" [Archive]

Brook Willard

04-30-2007, 10:36 AM

The good news is that it seems like video village should easily scale from project to project... gone are the days of having to throw down another $1,000 a week for a nasty, dark video tap.

As of the last time I heard, the camera has single-link HD-SDI, dual-link HD-SDI and HDMI output. So for low-budget projects, if somebody donates their HDTV from home for the week... there's an instant video village. It won't be a beautiful studio monitor, but it's still infinitely better than a buggered up little video tap. On a HD project I just completed a few weeks ago, the director brought some gigantic 42" HDTV from home... it was hilarious. The entire crew crowded around it during takes. That said, the entire crew were friends.

At the higher end, I personally would want it set up like this: dual-link HD-SDI patching through a D5 or HDCAM deck for recording/playback on the video village side . I'd also have some nice, calibrated 720p or 1080p monitor that I could run that 4:4:4 signal to [or 4:2:2 if I use the output from a D5 deck or another 4:2:2 system...]. The feed can patch to as many monitors as the director wants. In a really perfect world, I'd want my mixer to have a monitor as well... why not? Smoke 'em if you got 'em. ;)

It'd be [i]really cool to have somebody sitting right there with a laptop and REDCINE. They could do a one-light on the footage they've received from the AC... and build a new LUT to the director's liking. Pass that LUT back to the AC and I think they should be able to put it right into the camera. It seems like it'd be like having a paint box on set... but without the associated cost.

If one wants to go SD, there are HD-SDI to SD conversion boxes out there... though I don't know how reasonably priced they are.

Does anybody know if there are wireless HD-SDI [single- or dual-link] solutions out there of a reasonable size? It'd be really cool to have a wireless 4:4:4 HD signal coming from the camera to all the monitors on set... but I don't know if this is a reality yet.

Steve Gibby

04-30-2007, 10:44 AM

What will be in your RED One camera support truck?

Blair Paulsen has posted several times that he is developing a mobile camera support van for his RED #19, and for hire. He isn't on the forum right now, but I'm sure when he checks in he'll have some input. If you do a search of all his posts on this board, you'll probably be able to find his posts on that.

Joel Kaye

04-30-2007, 10:45 AM

if somebody donates their HDTV from home for the week... there's an instant video village.

That's my plan right now. I don't want a video village slowing me down and distracting a bunch of gawkers. I'm hoping I'll become confident enough with the EVF, focus assist and histogram to go shoot, review and move on.

Steve Gibby

04-30-2007, 10:47 AM

Steve Gibby

04-30-2007, 10:50 AM

I'm hoping I'll become confident enough with the EVF, focus assist and histogram to go shoot, review and move on.

That's exactly how I plan to work for my smaller productions and single-handed stock footage shooting.

Joel Kaye

04-30-2007, 10:57 AM

That's exactly how I plan to work for my smaller productions and single-handed stock footage shooting.

Good to know - it makes logical sense. If you can use it ENG style then it'll also kick butt for many, many shooting scenarios. I can't wait to hear how running and gunning works out for you.

Jeff Kilgroe

04-30-2007, 10:59 AM

If you need 1080p monitoring for video village or a client monitor, it can be done inexpensively with a 24" 1920x1200 LCD, but you'll also need a dual link HD-SDI converter attached to RED One in order to get 1080p to that monitor. Aja and Black Magic make them - about $450.

Keep in mind that HDMI out of RED One is limited to 720p.

Which gets me wondering... Is there any reason the HDMI output is limited to 720p and does not offer 1080p? Last word on it from Stuart was that they chose 720p because they did and that was all he had to say on it at that time, all specs subject to change, count on it...

So, is the 720p only for HDMI output still the way it is? Any chance for future upgrade via firmware to support 1080p? Would sure be handy... That 42" 1080p Samsung LCD TV would make one really nice client monitor.

Sorry, I know this question isn't directed at you, Gibby... Just caught myself thinking about this again since you mentioned it.

Gopher77

04-30-2007, 11:04 AM

I'd like to build a field cart for video village. It could house a 19"rack and equipment, a desk and some sort of pop up tent or hood. The exact guts I'm still contemplating, for instance what capability could there be when a steadi cam is in use, or other non tethered times? Secondly I want to see the 4k monitor and if that would be a display option in video village. I guess there is still a lot of the workflow TBD.

Steve Gibby

04-30-2007, 11:08 AM

Jeff,

For less complex projects, I simply check my RED One daily footage via dual link HD-SDI out of RED One to my Black Magic HDLink converter, then from there via DVI-D bus, using the BM-supplied little DVI to HDMI adapter, then into my LG 246W 24" 1920x1200 LCD via its HDMI input. A workaround for sure, and a $450 one at that, but as I remember, Stuart had some very definitive and logical reasons for the RED HDMI tap being limited to 720p. I'm OK with that, plus the BM HDLink will be used in other workflows I have so it was a good acquisition.

Once RED develops their announced line of 4k displays, I'll happily monitor my RED One footage with an affordable 4k monitor, rather than 1080p.

Kevin Halverson

04-30-2007, 11:12 AM

Besides monitors, the video village often includes some very comfortable seating, a lot of snacks (usually better than crafty provides for cast/crew) and anything else it takes to keep the client happy! I have seen personal assistants asked to obtain all sorts of "interesting" things for the privileged few who occupy "the village".

Joel Kaye

04-30-2007, 11:19 AM

Steve Gibby

04-30-2007, 11:27 AM

That's a very "present tense" answer. Do you have your RED already?

Not yet...but it shouldn't be too long now! I probably intended to put "I'll" (future tense) in that post, but subconsciously just put "I" as I get ready to put it in the present tense shortly.

When I get #8 I'll share that news with this community right away, start shooting some stock footage tests, and then get it right into think tank testing in los Angeles, that I've posted about.

Joe Carney

04-30-2007, 11:30 AM

I posted the comment about the VV. In our case, you needed at least 18" or better of ground clearance, so the village was a quick shelter, lunch table, and several Sony tape decks and monitors. We were/are shooting with 2 cameras on this shoot. The people in the village get the same things as everyone else unless they brought it themselves. The only people allowed in were functional. Lots and lots of rocks, big ones, medium sized ones, small ones. Would have been nice to have a big 4x4 offroad truck converted for use, but that would have been over budget. Everything was rented from Panavision btw.

A 12' long cargo trailer with good ground clearance converted to a 'video village' would have worked too.

Nick Shaw

04-30-2007, 11:46 AM

Kevin Halverson

04-30-2007, 12:12 PM

Does the current HDMI spec support 1080p60?

Yes, 1080p is supported in the current iteration.

MikeCurtis

04-30-2007, 01:24 PM

khmuse - in the LATEST spec, but not all HDMI enabled devices adhere to that spec. So keep that in mind...

-mike

Dominique Grenier

04-30-2007, 01:41 PM

Once RED develops their announced line of 4k displays, I'll happily monitor my RED One footage with an affordable 4k monitor, rather than 1080p.

I'm curious how that'll be possible? Since the HDMI output is limited to 720p and the dual HD-SDI link to 1080p, how would you connect the 4k display to the camera? Or maybe there's something I'm missing?

Nick Shaw

04-30-2007, 01:46 PM

I'm curious how that'll be possible? Since the HDMI output is limited to 720p and the dual HD-SDI link to 1080p, how would you connect the 4k display to the camera? Or maybe there's something I'm missing?

None of of us know what the spec for the 4k displays will be, outside red of course, and even for them it's a work in progress. Maybe it will have an input which connects direct to the camera's high speed port. That would be very cool.

Dominique Grenier

04-30-2007, 01:49 PM

None of of us know what the spec for the 4k displays will be, outside red of course, and even for them it's a work in progress. Maybe it will have an input which connects direct to the camera's high speed port. That would be very cool.

That'd be great, but then, if you want to record on a RAID using the RAW port, you're out of luck! Unless they make some sort of splitter, that is.

Kevin Halverson

04-30-2007, 02:01 PM

khmuse - in the LATEST spec, but not all HDMI enabled devices adhere to that spec. So keep that in mind...

-mike

"...current iteration..." = "...LATEST spec..."

Sorry for not making it clearer, but as I design products that include HDMI interfaces I often forget that not everyone follows the standard developments as closes as I need to.

Robert Sanders

04-30-2007, 02:53 PM

Like Gibby, I too will be using the BM HDLink to view 1080P 444 on an Apple 23" Cinema Display.

Nick Shaw

04-30-2007, 03:00 PM

Do we know what we will see on the 1080p output when shooting 4k? I'm assuming (just my guess) that when recording 1080p in camera it will be 4k scaled to 50% and then slightly cropped to pixel for pixel 1920x1080. If this is also what we get from the 1080p dual link output it will be from a 3840x2160 window on the 4k frame. Will this be an issue for monitoring? Certainly shouldn't be used to check for booms in shot.

Somebody from RED correct me if my assumptions are wrong.

Alexander Nikishin

04-30-2007, 03:11 PM

Does anybody know if there are wireless HD-SDI [single- or dual-link] solutions out there of a reasonable size? It'd be really cool to have a wireless 4:4:4 HD signal coming from the camera to all the monitors on set... but I don't know if this is a reality yet.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/01/12/Philips_makes_wireless_HDMI/

Robert Sanders

04-30-2007, 03:24 PM

I'm almost certain it's scaled fully to 1080P without any cropping. Of course there would be some small black bars at the top and bottom of the Cinema Display as it's native resolution is 1920x1200.

david farland

04-30-2007, 04:37 PM

Nick, not sure on what the HDMI specs say but bear in mind Red uses the old v1.0 HDMI, not anything later....and yes we know...specs blah blah blah!

That's interesting about no direct 4K monitoring.....well there's not a lot of cheap 4K monitoring solutions out there is there, but I thought that when Red announced(ish) their 4K monitor, they would have some redcode decoder in it for camera/post monitoring and maybe provision for 4 x dual DVI/HDMI/HD-SDI solutions....

C.H.Haskell

04-30-2007, 05:21 PM

david farland

04-30-2007, 06:59 PM

Came across this nice link (http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/audioholics-hdmi-1-3-q-a) on HDMI.

Cheers,

Ken Willinger

04-30-2007, 07:02 PM

I plan to use our Panasonic BT-LH1700W HD lcd via the RED HD-SDI out for now. That sounds right? This 17" monitor has been a great production monitor, heavy duty housing and mountable to a C-stand...pack it up and use it in post as well for color etc. I figure if the picture is primo on the monitor in 1080p then I trust the 4k ;)...look forward to what REd has in store of course!

I'm planning to use that same monitor in the field as well...it will do 720 or 1080 and is a great looking monitor, although I find they tend run a little green. That has been the case on everyone I have used, some more than others. The one I own is pretty good but still slightly green.

chuck colburn

04-30-2007, 07:36 PM

Gibby,

Isn't it amazing that moving pictures ever got made before the advent of the video tap? chorttle chorttle snarf snorf hack ack.....
excuse me

Chuck

Steve Gibby

04-30-2007, 07:45 PM

Gibby,

Isn't it amazing that moving pictures ever got made before the advent of the video tap? chorttle chorttle snarf snorf hack ack.....
excuse me

Chuck

Yup...imagine that! Makes me wonder why some have a hard time getting their arms around a nearly-WYSIWYG environment... :biggrin:

Ivan G

04-30-2007, 08:12 PM

We'll I made sure to pay close attention and see what Apple and other booths were using as display monitors. The Panasonic BT-LH2600W! No it doesn't support 4:4:4 but the options are great.

Blair S. Paulsen

04-30-2007, 09:51 PM

I have been working on this issue for several months now. I was even pestering Ted about working out something with RED for my van to host traveling road shows at one point. Of course he couldn't tell me about the Apple/Final Cut support pre-NAB and that a big van wasn't required. While the RedCode support in QuickTime has opened up some very easy workflow options I still plan to put a van on the road and here are some reasons why:

To address the initial point of this thread the van itself can be a mobile video village. I plan to finish the interior in grey tones with a full blackout of exterior light in an attempt to provide a proper grading environment. I will use an eCinema monitor until RED can ship a 4k option. I will have plenty of power options and plenty of hard drive space for running copies.

I am going to use two carts that can roll on set or operate in the van - one for the camera and one for computer. I am also planning a hood system for remote use of the camera/monitor cart when necessary. The other big advantage of the cart system is that I can remove the expensive gear from the van easily.

I have a number of ideas including a 8' roll down screen on the side of the van that would host a front projection image under a tent/awning system that would attach to cleats on the van roof rail. I could go on.

Anyone interested in working with me on developing what I am currently referring to as the rolling digital one-light lab feel free to PM me.

Jeff Kilgroe

04-30-2007, 11:13 PM

Stuart said 720p was chosen for it's ability to do 60p. I wonder if in future as 1080p60 monitors become more commonly available it will be possible to have upgrades to support that. Does the current HDMI spec support 1080p60?

1080p60 is supported with HDMI 1.1 and newer. With v1.0, it was there in the "alternative timings and specifications" section. Just about all new true 1080p displays support 1080p60, so I don't know if that's really a reason. I'm just guessing, but I think the reason has to do with the LCD and EVF interfaces. These are HDMI based according to what I've gathered and are also 720p. There's a good bet that the HDMI output, as well as the LCD and EVF connectors all operate off of the same HDMI chipset and signal pathway. So, it's not really possible to have the EVF and/or LCD attached running 720p and the camera also dumping 1080p out via the HDMI connector. That's my theory...

The dual-link SDI to HDMI converter is just fine... I was just thinking along the lines of eliminating such a converter box, for the sake of simplicity and mobility. But I really don't see much point to a 1080p HDMI output except for a client monitor. With the upgradable nature of RED, I would assume and expect that monitoring options and modes will grow in time just as we will eventually have higher-res options for the EVF and the LCD.

PaulClements

05-01-2007, 05:18 AM

RobRoySyd

05-01-2007, 05:27 AM

The delay through HD SDI should be under 2 frames, possibly much less.
For a decent monitor for the video village the Cinetal range are very nice. Around $30k with dual HD SDI inputs. Keep in mind these beasities let you dial in a Look so the client can see how the footage will look when graded. If you've got the post workflow to match you can take the Look and apply it to the footage. In other words what the client sees on the shoot can be what the client signs off on the day and knows they get.
This is where digital acquisition has it all over film.

M Most

05-01-2007, 05:49 AM

I will use an eCinema monitor until RED can ship a 4k option.

This is a bit off topic, but I have to ask: Even if one were available, how would you plan to use a 4K monitor in this scenario? You will likely never get a "live" 4K feed out of the camera (Red has pretty much said this), and Final Cut cannot deliver 4K playback, at least not in this iteration. The only time you will actually have a 4K image to view would be on a final deliverable, after all work is basically done and you can generate 4K images. So how would you be using it in a production environment, other than to look at individual frames?

Just curious..

Jeff Kilgroe

05-01-2007, 06:14 AM

Keep in mind these beasities let you dial in a Look so the client can see how the footage will look when graded.

Theoretically, we should be able to do this with any monitor and RED. When shooting REDCODE RAW, the camera should allow for a user-designated LUT and gamma settings for output to HDMI, SDI and even the EVF / LCD.

Roxco

05-01-2007, 08:33 AM

How long a delay would there be from the camera to a field monitor?

Would it be small enough to allow for realtime remote focus pulling with your AC sat with the supergrip or other remote infront of an Apple 30" running at 1080p off of a BlackMagic HD-SDI to DVI convertor? Would using expensive fibre optics cabling make it better? Does the distance of the cabling make a significant difference?

David Mullen answered this for me elsewhere when I quoted Rodney Charters reluctance to use a Digital solution. Basically the focus puller has to predict where the actor is going next (the next mark) and not react to the monitor or else the "searching-for-focus" will distract the audience.

Canon showed some new auto focus technology at NAB where they "steal" some of the image from the lens and hit a focusing sensor, but I think tape measures and focus pullers will be near the lens for a few more years.

Hope this answered your question,

Rosco

Steve Gibby

05-01-2007, 08:52 AM

Would using expensive fibre optics cabling make it better? Does the distance of the cabling make a significant difference?

In remote HDTV sports production, for example golf and marathon coverage, with the traditional use of triax, repeaters had to be installed periodically down the cabling. Now fiber optic cables as long as 10,000 feet are used, with great results, even daisy-chaining multiple cameras and monitors through the fiber. On larger budget, essentially stationary sets, fiber makes good sense.

Roxco

05-02-2007, 09:05 AM

Canon showed some new auto focus technology at NAB where they "steal" some of the image from the lens and hit a focusing sensor, but I think tape measures and focus pullers will be near the lens for a few more years.

Here is a report on the new Canon lens technology, but it may not be suitable for narrative work.

Rosco

http://hd.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=126260

The Canon DIGISUPER 100AF and DIGISUPER 86AF lenses (model numbers XJ100x9.3B AF and XJ86x9.3B AF, respectively) create an operator-controllable window in the HD camera’s viewfinder that targets the object operators want to focus most sharply on in the scene. Camera operators can change the window’s position and size by means of a miniature joystick on the camera handle’s focus servo control. An additional button provides three modes of operation:
1) Part-Time – actuates the auto-focus system as long as a control button is depressed.
2) Full-Time – actuates the auto-focus continually on selected moving objects such as racing cars (which might be speeding toward the camera position), or for shooting situations entailing full-servo robotic operation.
3) Off – allows for normal, unassisted lens focus.

Blair S. Paulsen

05-02-2007, 06:30 PM

This is a bit off topic, but I have to ask: Even if one were available, how would you plan to use a 4K monitor in this scenario? You will likely never get a "live" 4K feed out of the camera (Red has pretty much said this), and Final Cut cannot deliver 4K playback, at least not in this iteration. The only time you will actually have a 4K image to view would be on a final deliverable, after all work is basically done and you can generate 4K images. So how would you be using it in a production environment, other than to look at individual frames?

Just curious..

Would that be Mike Most out of Florida asking? In any case, AFAIK there is no live 4k monitoring pipeline available at any price - right now. My assumption is that within 2 years multi-core CPUs, faster internal busses and other hardware improvements will make it possible to take the RedCode RAW data off RedDrives or solid state media, transcode it in realtime (or close to) in RedCine and display it. IMHO the biggest hurdle will be the pipe from the computer to the display.

Obviously a key issue is whether we are talking about an uncompressed data stream from server to display, I am presuming some sort of wavelet compression will be needed for implementation. This opens up a discussion of whether RED's 4k monitors and projectors will be designed as "open" systems or if they will depend on a proprietary codec. It also begs the question of whether "uncompressed" offers a big enough quality premium over wavelet and other advanced codecs to justify its overhead.

I heard that the RED demo at NAB used a fast (expensive) server and 8 lanes of HD-SDI to feed the Sony SXRD 4k projector. Obviously a more efficient topology needs to be developed if the Rebellion wishes to propagate 4k. I am ignoring DCI/J2K as I am under the impression that it is too computationally intensive, particularly on the client side. If someone out there like Jason R. knows better I stand to be corrected - of course he may wish to tout Cineform solutions.

In any case the best "live" tap off the RedOne may be dual-link 4:4:4 HD-SDI for the foreseeable future but if I can process and show 4k rushes within a few minutes of capture in a van at the edge of the set I think that is a value add I can sell to producers, directors and DoPs.

Rob Lohman

05-03-2007, 03:00 AM

I heard that the RED demo at NAB used a fast (expensive) server and 8 lanes of HD-SDI to feed the Sony SXRD 4k projector.
We used a KG box connected to the Sony 4K projector. The projector takes an input board for each 2K quadrant. You can choose between HD-SDI or DVI. I think we used HD-SDI.

M Most

05-03-2007, 05:05 AM

Would that be Mike Most out of Florida asking?

Yup (formerly of L.A.).

It also begs the question of whether "uncompressed" offers a big enough quality premium over wavelet and other advanced codecs to justify its overhead.

That's the question of the moment on a lot of levels, monitoring being one.

I am ignoring DCI/J2K as I am under the impression that it is too computationally intensive, particularly on the client side. If someone out there like Jason R. knows better I stand to be corrected - of course he may wish to tout Cineform solutions.

It's not too intensive if you're using a digital cinema server. Not everything is designed around low end desktop PC's, and in general, I don't see a lot of compelling reasons for 4K playback on a desktop other than to say you can do it. When and if it becomes simpler to do it, sure, there might be some added value - but I really have my doubts as to whether most people want to watch high resolution motion pictures on their computers. 4K is meant for very large screens, where its capabilities have real impact. The smaller the screen, the less the significance.

In any case the best "live" tap off the RedOne may be dual-link 4:4:4 HD-SDI for the foreseeable future but if I can process and show 4k rushes within a few minutes of capture in a van at the edge of the set I think that is a value add I can sell to producers, directors and DoPs.

Perhaps. Good, solid answers to my questions, though. Thanks.

Shawn Nelson

05-03-2007, 08:50 PM

Okay, sorry for the stupid question, but I can't find this anywhere. On the HDMI out port, will Red supply audio on that HDMI connect? I know audio can travel down an HDMI. If so, then I'd only have to have one line running from camera to VV, a big ass HDMI.

Second, in regards to wireless HDMI, I can't find that Philips for sale anywhere. Does anyone have an ETA on it? I also looked at the Gefen one. It's twice as expensive and looks twice as bulky. I read in another thread that the Gefen guy is going to try to get the size down, well that's great whenever that happens.

Jeff Kilgroe

05-03-2007, 09:04 PM

I've asked that same question, Shawn (audio on the HDMI port). But I don't think it was ever answered. If it was, I missed it. I think the ability to send out audio over the HDMI feed would be a nice feature.

I haven't seen the Philips wireless HDMI anywhere yet either.

Shawn Nelson

05-03-2007, 09:53 PM

Rob Lohman

05-04-2007, 02:20 AM

As far as I know the HD-SDI should be live. I think the diagram tries to indicate that you can't record 2K or 4K over HD-SDI. It will always be 720 (single link port) or 1080 (dual-link).

The person that knows this for sure is Stuart...

Steve Gibby

05-04-2007, 06:59 AM

Okay, sorry for the stupid question, but I can't find this anywhere. On the HDMI out port, will Red supply audio on that HDMI connect? I know audio can travel down an HDMI. If so, then I'd only have to have one line running from camera to VV, a big ass HDMI.

HDMI - 720p video plus audio without graphics.

Stuart English
1/28/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=8

Steve Gibby

05-04-2007, 07:43 AM

Wait a second here...several people have now said they are going to use the Blackmagic HDLink to monitor in 1080p from the dual link HD-SDI. But on the Red website it says "No" under HD-SDI for all the Redcode options! What the heck? Can i not be filming in 4k Redcode and also be simultaneously monitoring in 1080p 4:4:4 out the dual link HD-SDI?

"The phrase “Dual-link HD-SDI” can mean one or both of two things - RED can support both.

a) Use of two links to provide 4:4:4 RGB monitoring at 1080p or -
b) Two duplicate outputs of 4:2:2 YUV (Y,Cr,Cb) at 720p or 1080i or 1080p."

Stuart English
2/6/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=19

"3. You can also use the Dual-Link HD-SDI output for 1080p monitoring. For 4:2:2 color space, only one link of the Dual-Link is necessary. (The 1080p/60 format is supported under SMPTE dual link specs .....)"

Stuart English
1/18/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=9

"1. Only the LCD and EVF display full camera GUI including surround view and audio levels and frame markers and other graphics. If you want exactly this on-set then you could remote the LCD output. Another approach could be - read camera stutus over usb/wi-fi, ingest the HDMI output into a Black Magic card and build your own P.C video village.

2. HDMI/HDSDI monitoring outputs are fixed at 720p. This is because 720p is the only single link HDSDI video format that allows us to show every frame rate up through 60fps (or 120fps).

3. You can also use the Dual-Link HD-SDI output for 1080p monitoring. For 4:2:2 color space, only one link of the Dual-Link is necessary. (The 1080p/60 format is supported under SMPTE dual link specs .....)

4. The HDMI and HD-SDI monitoring outputs support 50p / 60p. (Recheck your Panasonic / JVC LCD - the Panny W models all have 50/60)

5. What then do these monitor outputs display when the camera is running at 'non-standard' frame rates? If shooting at 25fps, do these monitor outputs use a form of pulldown to pad the frames up to 50p - Yes. If shooting at 24 fps will they pad the frames up to 60 fps - Yes. If shooting at 120fps, do these monitor outputs simply display every other frame at 60p - Yes."

Stuart English
1/18/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=9

"There are four independent monitor outputs...

EVF - 720p video with look around, frame markers and other graphics.

LCD - 720p video with look around, fame markers and other graphics.

HDMI - 720p video plus audio without graphics.

HDSI - 720p video plus audio without graphics.

Note - The monitor HDSI is independent of the Dual Link HDSI, which supports a wide range of HD formats and frame rates."

Stuart English
1/28/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=8

(Gibby note: the LCD itself has been confirmed as being 1024x600 resolution)

------------------------------

As I remember, in other threads Stuart mentioned that all monitor output taps are "live" when shooting (EVF, LCD, and HD-SDI), and he also mentioned that when you were shooting REDCODE RAW, the camera would provide a realtime RGB output to the monitoring taps. For color presentation on the preview taps, the camera provides an auto white balance, which is user updateable as light changes. You can dig out the references and links to this, but I believe it is correct.

As with everything until the camera is locked down, it's subject to possible change, even though it was stated on forums.

Blair S. Paulsen

05-04-2007, 12:29 PM

Thanks Gibby for taking the time to recap the monitoring options per Stuart's actual posts. Your disclaimer about specs not being locked down seems wise, especially since the early units will/may not be fully feature enabled and we even had a major board replacement post-NAB.

Throughout the dev on this system I have tried to design bulletproof on-set solutions that take into account current infrastructure while embracing the new paradigm that the RED system enables. Just like the camera my version of "video village" continues to evolve.

I will use the Dodge branded Mercedes Benz built Sprinter van as the traveling platform. It gets 27/mpg and will run on bio-diesel. The form factor lends itself to the mobile color grading suite I want to include as a value add to the camera system.

When having the camera tethered is feasible I hope to use some version of HD-SDI direct from the RedOne to an AJA/Mac/RAID recording system in addition to the RedDrives. Why? I hope to offer immediate playback of takes and have a fail-safe 1080 copy to calm nervous producers. Is this overkill? Probably.

I believe in the tech, I really do BUT - I am not the one that NEEDS to believe. In order to make it easier for producers to greenlight tech they have no prior experience with I want to offer a hybrid workflow. I want to be able to point at the HD-SDI tap going onto disk and the RedDrive mounted on the RedOne and explain that we are getting two full raster HD (or better) copies simultaneously. That even without dozens of previous projects as evidence that the odds of both of them crapping out at the same time are far less than the chance of tape/film jams.

Whether it is a crutch or a necessity (insert your bias here) the expectation of immediate playback of takes on set exists. Unless I am missing something, all of the on-board storage options on the RedOne require you to dismount the device and hook it up to a computer in order to review footage. While the DP may need to be lighting the next shot, the director or some producer or the scripty or somebody may want to vet the most recent take before wrapping an actor or set just in case they missed something during the live viewing.

I actually think a Wafian or similar device might be an excellent option for what might be referred to as the redundant 1080 protocol. Am I advocating that all productions need to do this - NO. For a lot of projects you can just sneakernet your RedDrive over to the laptop to review footage or simply roll a safety take or just trust you drilled the shot and that nothing horrible will happen to the media before you can copy it.

IMHO the biggest hurdle in the first year or two the RedOne is in the field is perceptions, CYA issues, bonding and insurance rider language, etc. To be realistic, no matter how much I might trust the RedTeam, any new product has a higher likelihood of bugs the first year which makes the "redundant 1080 protocol" (maybe I should try and slogan-mark that phrase, its "that hot" :biggrin: ) a bigger draw.

I believe its a Viper/s.two workflow that has been modified to include a custom piece of tech that takes the incoming data stream and manages it for you. It creates two copies then verifies them, it processes a lower res version for editorial and requires no DIT. Once more machine puts man out of work :shiftyph34r: .

Shawn Nelson

05-04-2007, 10:35 PM

Unless I am missing something, all of the on-board storage options on the RedOne require you to dismount the device and hook it up to a computer in order to review footage.

Whoa!! I was under the impression that when using the Reddrive that you could select clips (such as last take or three takes ago) to view again in both the LCD/EVF and monitor and HD-SDI outs. I'd sure be bummed if they didn't, I can't afford to spring for an HDCAM deck at this point.

Jeff Kilgroe

05-05-2007, 12:12 AM

Whoa!! I was under the impression that when using the Reddrive that you could select clips (such as last take or three takes ago) to view again in both the LCD/EVF and monitor and HD-SDI outs. I'd sure be bummed if they didn't, I can't afford to spring for an HDCAM deck at this point.

That can't be right... There has to be a way to review clips from the camera. In fact I think Stuart or Rob said we could a while back. I don't think we'll be able to delete on-board the camera due to concerns over fragmentation.

Blair S. Paulsen

05-05-2007, 10:38 AM

My bad. Playback on camera from the RedDrive has been stated by the RedTeam in the past. So I assume that means that the RedCode RAW is decoded and sent out for monitoring by the camera - impressive tech.

Shawn Nelson

05-06-2007, 06:42 PM

Ralph Oshiro

05-06-2007, 06:48 PM

We use the Kart-a-Bag Kartmaster HD500S at work, and keep one in each van. The thing I don't like about them is that they're heavy. But the big thing I DO like about the Kart-a-Bag carts, is that they fold up much smaller than a Magliner.

Kart-a-Bag site (scroll all the way to the bottom of the page for the HD500S) (http://www.kart-a-bag.com/html/products.html)

But check out some of the carts at filmtools.com. I just checked, and they have a lot of production carts that may be more appropriate to your needs.

Mark Hassenger

05-06-2007, 06:52 PM

http://filmtools.com/equipmentcarts.html

I've bought a lot of items from Filmtools, very helpful sales dept. for custom applications.

Chris Parker

05-06-2007, 07:38 PM

Also, check out backstage. they have good magliner modifications for film.

http://www.backstageweb.com/

Ken Willinger

05-06-2007, 08:24 PM

Those are some good options. I use the Kartmaster as well, though not for video village use. But I do travel with it extensively and it is very rugged. The airlines destroyed my Magliner, that's when I switched to the Kartmaster.

chuck colburn

05-06-2007, 08:33 PM

Does anyone have any good recommendations for good places to get heavy duty carts to use for video village? I supposed I could start with a strong metal cart with beefy wheels and have a good welder start customizing it, and I probably will have a degree of customizing to do, but the closer I can start to something that could carry a Mac, several large LCDs, etc, would be cool.

Hey Shawn,

Just recieved the B&H catalog and there are a selection in it.
The Steadicam guys are cart freaks and there are some threads over at their site.

Chuck

Roxco

07-25-2007, 10:42 AM

Throughout the dev on this system I have tried to design bulletproof on-set solutions that take into account current infrastructure while embracing the new paradigm that the RED system enables. Just like the camera my version of "video village" continues to evolve.

What have you decided to include at this time?

Is there anyplace to rent Wireless HDMI gear?

Still Searching,

Rosco

Mark L. Pederson

07-25-2007, 12:02 PM

None of of us know what the spec for the 4k displays will be, outside red of course, and even for them it's a work in progress. Maybe it will have an input which connects direct to the camera's high speed port. That would be very cool.

forget the highspeed port - firewire or even a single BNC is all you would need for 4K REDCODE, assuming you decode in the monitor -

Kyle Spicer

07-25-2007, 03:42 PM

Found a couple of interesting links while searching for a wireless HDMI option. I still think there is a long way to go, but this may work for some options. Also I found a few links for some really long HDMI cables with locking screw.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4318
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/cables/hdmicables.jsp#hdmirp
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/cables/hdextenders.jsp#hdmi1000
http://www.radiospire.com/?page=UniCast_TX

Nick Shaw

07-25-2007, 03:53 PM

forget the highspeed port - firewire or even a single BNC is all you would need for 4K REDCODE, assuming you decode in the monitor -

That's assuming there is no (or negligible) latency from the REDCODE compress/decompress cycle. Don't want it to be like using Firewire to monitor a DV camera.

Blair S. Paulsen

07-25-2007, 04:02 PM

Hmmm. Are you thinking that in addition to the eSATA tap that goes to the RedDrive there is another active data output port sending out RedCode RAW? Can we "split" the eSATA feed? If you are using CF then the eSATA tap is open for business? Very interesting :greedy:

For the sake of this discussion, let's imagine that a soon to be released Mac tower has enough processing power (probably via the GPU) to de-Bayer the RedCode RAW (in real time or at least with only a frame or two of delay) and a monitoring pipeline capable of 3840 by 2160 resolution. Perhaps it will be possible to monitor (at nearly) 4K, albeit with a somewhat truncated color space and other limitations typical of LCD based monitors designed for computer use.

This would rock if it can actually be done.

Brook Willard

07-25-2007, 04:09 PM

The eSATA drive port is reportedly disabled when using onboard [i.e. CF] storage. You could have a CF module installed and a RED DRIVE plugged in, but you would have to choose only one to record to.

Blair S. Paulsen

07-25-2007, 06:01 PM

Anarri

07-25-2007, 08:04 PM

How about the eSATA tap to a Mac tower with RAID and GPU/monitor that can do near 4k (3840 by 2160 is the likely res)? The RAID acts like a big RedDrive for the RedCode RAW data. The CPU or 2nd GPU de-bayers for monitoring with some, yet to be determined latency?

If not now, maybe someday...

I'm drooling all over my keyboard already....

After seeing what the RED team has achieved thus far, I'm starting to believe anything is possible.

Would the 8 core 32Gig Ram Mac Pro be able to handle that with X-raid server??

Blair S. Paulsen

07-25-2007, 09:23 PM

I'm drooling all over my keyboard already....

After seeing what the RED team has achieved thus far, I'm starting to believe anything is possible.

Would the 8 core 32Gig Ram Mac Pro be able to handle that with X-raid server??

Well its not the Red Team as much as Apple that would have to make the config I postulated possible, particularly in terms of monitoring beyond 1080P. I wonder if the current 30" Apple Cinema Display could actually give us 2560 x 1600 pixels of image, scaled on the fly from 4K or pixel for pixel at 2K (2048 by 1536 AFAIK)??? Seems a little optimistic.

Frankly, in the near term, I don't expect current hardware and, due respect to Graeme, the current software code builds to support anything beyond just writing RedCode RAW to the RAID and then playing it back in 2K shortly after the take or with a delay of several seconds at best.

What's the point? I am merely looking at the trajectory of computer tech, specifically from Apple, and thinking that sometime in 2008 we just might have new generation Mac towers that could pull off 4K monitoring from the RedCode RAW data stream with only a few frames of latency. Issues that will need to be dealt with include:

RedCode will get better, from what we've been told it is already much improved and there is still plenty of efficiency to be had.

OSX Leopard, combined with 10.5 SDKs will allow developers to take greater advantage of 64 bit architecture and better utilize the multi-core CPUs.

Better GPUs working in parallel and/or assigned to separate tasks will be able to support more real time processes for folks like us.

New monitor tech, hopefully using a fatter pipe, the better GPUs and offering resolution independence will make 4K (or at least quad-HD 3840 by 2160) displays possible on desktop systems.

Hope you all enjoyed sharing my daydream...

Roxco

07-26-2007, 04:14 PM

Well its not the Red Team as much as Apple that would have to make the config I postulated possible, particularly in terms of monitoring beyond 1080P...

RedCode will get better, from what we've been told it is already much improved and there is still plenty of efficiency to be had.

OSX Leopard, combined with 10.5 SDKs will allow developers to take greater advantage of 64 bit architecture and better utilize the multi-core CPUs.

Better GPUs working in parallel and/or assigned to separate tasks will be able to support more real time processes for folks like us.

New monitor tech, hopefully using a fatter pipe, the better GPUs and offering resolution independence will make 4K (or at least quad-HD 3840 by 2160) displays possible on desktop systems.

Hope you all enjoyed sharing my daydream...

There was talk after NAB about Apple's missing 64 bit app that was supposed to show up, but is now waiting for Leopard I assume.

Maybe your dreams are closer than you think! ;) ;)

Rosco