B17 MAX- Deanan? Graeme?

[Tim Fassnacht]

As per some convo's around town here, having MAX ON doesn't really have any discernible image quality difference- seemingly all it does is disable Scratch's ability to do real-time playout. So I'm wondering fellas, what exactly does it do? Does it perhaps offer a cleaner key? Any insight appreciated.

Cheers,

Tim

[Martin Weiss]

I second that question.

[Brook Willard]

As it's been described to me by the guys, it isn't a quality setting but "has to do with the way that the files are written". I leave it off at all times. Making post faster is worth it.

Unless there's some decent reason to leave it on that they haven't told me about...?

[Mark L. Pederson]

If you uncheck MAX - playback in Scratch is faster - HOWEVER you COULD, in rare HIGH DETAIL situations get a codec error.

So ... if you do shoot "unchecked" and find yourself getting a codec error - check MAX and shoot it again -

We shoot everything with MAX checked.

[Tai Wah Lim]

If you uncheck MAX - playback in Scratch is faster - HOWEVER you COULD, in rare HIGH DETAIL situations get a codec error.

So ... if you do shoot "unchecked" and find yourself getting a codec error - check MAX and shoot it again -

We shoot everything with MAX checked.

Mark, no problem playing back with Scratch??

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, no problem playing back with Scratch??

Current release build of Scratch ... not in 2K.

I can't comment on builds that don't exist ...

For what it's worth - we almost never do full 2K debayer playout in RT to TAPE - we do everything in our power to be TAPELESS - we have been dramatically increasing our render firepower over the past few weeks - we are averaging over 10 hours + of REDCODE per day between various projects - 7 days a week - laying all that to tape is very silly when you can hit it with clusters and split it over multiple machines.

We push our clients to drop the tape and get with the data -

[Tai Wah Lim]

If you uncheck MAX - playback in Scratch is faster - HOWEVER you COULD, in rare HIGH DETAIL situations get a codec error.

So ... if you do shoot "unchecked" and find yourself getting a codec error - check MAX and shoot it again -

We shoot everything with MAX checked.

I thought we have the REDCODE 28 and REDCODE 36 to cater for quality difference. So what is the outcome for REDCODE 28 MAX and not MAX and REDCODE 36 MAX and not MAX. Lim

[John Tissavary]

TAPE MUST DIE!!!

And real-time is for the weak...

Now let's politely ask Assimilate to make Scratch a command-line executable that can be distributed on a network so we can get into currently achievable faster-than-real-time.


JT

[Brook Willard]

TAPE MUST DIE!!!

And real-time is for the weak...

Now let's politely ask Assimilate to make Scratch a command-line executable that can be distributed on a network so we can get into currently achievable faster-than-real-time.


JT

Agreed. That's been killing me for a while now. I hate having to do things manually... and having to lock up a Scratch seat for hours to do a render.

[Stuart English]

... having MAX ON doesn't really have any discernible image quality difference ... seemingly all it does is disable real-time playout...what exactly does it do?

MAX maximises the image quality (what else would it do?)

But using MAX also means 4K .R3D decodes take a bit longer.

So if you need real time 24 fps decode and your post system can't deliver that, you can choose to uncheck the MAX box when recording.

But if that is not important to you, leave it checked.

Recording 4K HD is another option to get real time .R3D decodes.

[Tim Fassnacht]

Current release build of Scratch ... not in 2K.

I can't comment on builds that don't exist ...

For what it's worth - we almost never do full 2K debayer playout in RT to TAPE - we do everything in our power to be TAPELESS - we have been dramatically increasing our render firepower over the past few weeks - we are averaging over 10 hours + of REDCODE per day between various projects - 7 days a week - laying all that to tape is very silly when you can hit it with clusters and split it over multiple machines.

We push our clients to drop the tape and get with the data -

Mark- Right there with you. Sometimes as you know, clients can be more stubborn about their tape than Spielberg is about film. For those people, a HDCAM-SR 1080p Master is in their comfort zone and from a service side having the ability to Play-Out in real-time via Scratch is imperative. Testing at one of our offices has yeilded real-time results with no dropped frames on footage where MAX wasn't checked. Max checked did have the occasional blunder though.

Stewart- thanks for the response. When you say it's giving you the best quality of the codec I understand that but specifically, is it utilizing the full spectrum of bandwidth available at all times? Is it actually writing more data? Bit Rate increase? Is it making me breakfast? Sorry to nit pick but i'm really curious on what it's specifically doing. Thanks.

Tim

[Stuart English]

Yes to those general assumptions, but I can't be more specific than that.

Bottom line is - use MAX if you can, but don't fret too much if you cant....

.. and this is a 4K 16:9 and maybe a 4K 2:1 issue, at 4K HD and 3K and 2K the decode speed isn't an issue anyway.

[Grayton hevern]

Can someone tell me what impact MAX mode is going to have on scratch,

Max mode is the default. B16 uncreased the quality and stability but as a result also decreased the framerates for Scratch a bit. Unchecking it lets it do an older mode that worked well for Scratch at half res high
I found the above information from one of the red guys on here, but does that mean with the max checked you are getting a better quality picture, because if it does you cant really ask a client to uncheck it to suit their post path, I have noticed that real time playback has been somewhat unstable of late on scratch, but I put it down to some bugs in the new version, is it more likely to be with the improvements in build 16. And what can I expect to see once I do my first build 17 conform or rushes playback?

[Stuart English]

does that mean with the max checked you are getting a better quality picture, because if it does you cant really ask a client to uncheck it to suit their post path

Yes.

But sure you can, because image quality is relative.

Both modes are great, its just that MAX is the greatest.

[NateWeaver]

My question would be if you know you're underexposing, and you're going to have to pull your image out of the RAW muck in post, are you going to get a better result with the resulting grain with MAX on?

Or is more of a color spatial resolution issue?

[Stuart English]

My question would be if you know you're underexposing, and you're going to have to pull your image out of the RAW muck in post, are you going to get a better result with the resulting grain with MAX on?

Or is more of a color spatial resolution issue?

Nate, with respect you are over thinking this, see my post above.

[Evin Grant]

So far my method has been to shoot anything for a non projection delivery with MAX off.
There are too many instances of commercial or music video projects changing their post in the middle of the shoot and I'd like to make sure there aren't any roadblocks if a conform to tape is necessary. As far as I can tell you won't be able to see the difference between MAX on or off unless you're finishing in 2K 10bit or higher for a DCI-DCP or film out.

[NateWeaver]

Nate, with respect you are over thinking this, see my post above.

Well, I'll certainly agree that I overthink things at times.

It's just a little bothersome to not understand what's really going on. I don't want to find out later on that something important to me is not going to happen because I chose the wrong mode.

Since conversion times and RT playback are very important these days, I guess I'll keep it unchecked.

[Tai Wah Lim]

MAX maximises the image quality (what else would it do?)

But using MAX also means 4K .R3D decodes take a bit longer.

So if you need real time 24 fps decode and your post system can't deliver that, you can choose to uncheck the MAX box when recording.

But if that is not important to you, leave it checked.

Recording 4K HD is another option to get real time .R3D decodes.

4K HD is good and tested for realtime. However if using CF card, the Redcode is limited only to Redcode 28. Lim

[Mat@imageWork]

MAX maximises the image quality (what else would it do?)

But using MAX also means 4K .R3D decodes take a bit longer.

So if you need real time 24 fps decode and your post system can't deliver that, you can choose to uncheck the MAX box when recording.

But if that is not important to you, leave it checked.

Recording 4K HD is another option to get real time .R3D decodes.

4K HD? Could you explain

[Stuart English]

What's happening is that the MAX mode encode is more complex (and hence delivers maximum image quality)

Therefore it also takes longer to decode when using a software solution (as opposed to on-camera where we can use hardware)

But by reducing the number of pixels that need decoding, your decode speed will increase.

At 4K HD and 4K ANA the number of pixels is small enough that a software decode should be real-time.

So choosing to shoot with MAX / not MAX is only relevant to 4K 16:9 and 2:1



Note: At 3K 16:9 and below, the number of pixels is small enough the camera always records in MAX mode anyway.

[Damien Molineaux]

4K HD? Could you explain

If you do a little search, you'll find out that Build 17 offers a new frame size (besides 4K 2:1 and 4K 16:9) called 4K HD which is actually using 3840 x 2160 pixels of your sensor, exactly twice the hight and twice the width of HD (1080p). This allows for faster and optimal debayering to HD, if that's what your finishing to.

Cheers,
Damien

[Rainer Fritz]

So Stuart, will it be an idea to take the camera hardware which plays in realtime 1080p on a PCIe card and have a dual link SDI on it.... ?????

:)

rainer

[JanneJansson]

Agreed. That's been killing me for a while now. I hate having to do things manually... and having to lock up a Scratch seat for hours to do a render.

All that is needed to make a super-uber-render farm possible in an easy way, is just REDline binary for linux :)

[Patrick Tresch]

So Stuart, will it be an idea to take the camera hardware which plays in realtime 1080p on a PCIe card and have a dual link SDI on it.... ?????

:)

rainer

YES!

Please make it happen like you did for the R3D support in color : as a big SURPRISE!!!:w00t:


Patrick

[Brandon Fraley]

alright, this is all over my head.

When people say "real-time decode", what exactly does this mean? I assume it doesn't mean real time transcode, to say prores, right? then does it mean simply real time playback? and if so in what form? and on what hardware?

Also, I was just playing with the camera and it looks to me that 4k 2:1 and 4k HD use around the same amount sensor surface. is 2:1 really that much more complex than 4k HD?

any insight would really help me out.

THANKS :)

[Stuart English]

Real time decode means you need to get 23.98 fps playback from a software decoder. The application is dubbing 4K . R3D files to HD-SDI - such as HDCAM SR dailies.

If you are transcoding to ProRes then shoot in MAX mode, as you won't be at this fps anyway....

[Brandon Fraley]

so, if im never dealing with tape, or scratch, will the MAX checked have any consequence to me? Will my transcodes be any longer? Will I get slower playback in QT or FCP, etc?

Same question with 4k HD. Will shooting 4K HD mean faster transcodes than 4K 2:1? faster playback in QT, FCP?

THANKS :)

[Rainer Fritz]

so stuart how do you think it will be possible to make a realtime (25 fps) out from color to HD-CAM (SR), when i am working native from the red files shot in for ex. 4kHD, via a special card from red or via a Kona3 for ex. ??? The footage will have a grading on it....

so will only safe time if i am first rendering to uncompressed QT 4:2:2 ??

with a full debayer??

thx
rainer

[Stuart English]

so, if i'm never dealing with tape, or scratch, will the MAX checked have any consequence to me?

None.

If you are not doing either one or those, use MAX.

[Brandon Fraley]

None.

If you are not doing either one or those, use MAX.

Thanks Stuart. Concise and specific :)

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I encourage everyone to uncheck the Max box unless they are certain that it will never be dealt with in a post house other than yours. There is already too much FUD surrounding the RedOne, until someone can show me a meaningful difference between Max and non-Max why create a potential land mine for real time post operations?

[Stuart English]

MAX on yields the highest image quality for 4K images.

MAX off was added to allow certain existing software post production tools to render out to tape in real time, i.e at 23.98 fps to a VTR.

MAX on with 4K HD should render out at 23.98 with the above tools anyway.

You have the information, the decision is yours.