My RED ONE (arrival date tomorrow) has just been Rendered OBSOLETE

[Joe Taylor]

I just spent $20,000 + and was likely to spend more on a camera that is still on the FED EX truck and already this camera has just been "RENDERED OBSOLETE" by the people who promised me (us) that it never would.

I sort of expected this from the EPIC-- but now Scarlet is a substantially better camera than my yet unboxed RED ONE.

(Oh, by the way. For a year I've been told the RED ONE is 12 MP. Today's news says 9.2. What the hell is with that.)

This morning I sort of feel like RED did an Indiana Jones on me South Park style.

[GlennChan]

Of course your camera will depreciate in value over time (ok ok, except for certain things like Leica equipment). I don't think that they promised that this would never happen.

You would be eligible for a sensor upgrade, and you would be eligible for credit towards an Epic. To me, in that sense, it looks like they will be keeping their promise.

[Johann Schulz]

Joe, take it easy. I just lost 15k in stocks and I'm still pumped about getting my R1. It's the best available now. These new options are at least several months away. Use your R1 and then upgrade later.

At the same time, you never have to upgrade your R1 and you'll still be making superb -looking movies. Think about your story, mate. RED DIGITAL will take care of the rest! ;>)

[Priyesh P.]

I just spent $20,000 + and was likely to spend more on a camera that is still on the FED EX truck and already this camera has just been "RENDERED OBSOLETE" by the people who promised me (us) that it never would.

I sort of expected this from the EPIC-- but now Scarlet is a substantially better camera than my yet unboxed RED ONE.

(Oh, by the way. For a year I've been told the RED ONE is 12 MP. Today's news says 9.2. What the hell is with that.)

This morning I sort of feel like RED did an Indiana Jones on me South Park style.

I think it`s time for you to wake and grow up.

[R. Gonzales]

Of course your camera will depreciate in value over time (ok ok, except for certain things like Leica equipment). I don't think that they promised that this would never happen.

You would be eligible for a sensor upgrade, and you would be eligible for credit towards an Epic. To me, in that sense, it looks like they will be keeping their promise.

Glen I respectfully submit, that as a person who has not purchased a R1 you should put your money where your mouth is. Though you have had many informative post in the past, I think your shoes need to be bigger today.


Method

[Mike Harrington]

could be a while before these are actually selling....

use your R1 for a year....if it makes money trade it up...
or upgrade the sensor for free

the R1 is being used on movies right now....
and this was bound to happen....

[Mark Pugh]

(Oh, by the way. For a year I've been told the RED ONE is 12 MP. Today's news says 9.2. What the hell is with that.)


It's a correction, I believe.
Up until NAB 2008 Red's site still said Red One does 12MP @ 60 fps.
At last, some accuracy.

[Paul Hazlett]

I don't get it. You can use your new camera and all the accesories for a year
and then get a full refund for the part the needs to be updated!! then your
on par with everyone else....whats the big deal?? I mean really do yo think Sony or Panasonic would take back your f900 or Varicam and say here is your full purchase price back to buy our new product.

[Joe Taylor]

I think it`s time for you to wake and grow up.

I suppose you're right. After all, I am only expecting to take delivery of this camera... TODAY of all days.

Hell, at 7:00 am I was excited as hell. By 8:30 I felt like I got fired/dumped/sued/ and bad news from the Doctor-- all in that order.

[number6]

Joe, don't know what you are planning on using your camera for so can't say if your R1 in obsolete or not. It certainly isn't if you want to shoot something now. And consider that the footage you will shoot will be higher quality than the general public can watch at full rez for years to come.

So, unless you bought the camera to show and tell the (soon-to-be) latest and greatest thing, then no, your R1 is not obsolete. But if you are all about fashion, then you obviously have enough money to upgrade to an Epic when the time comes.

[Joe Taylor]

....you obviously have enough money to upgrade to an Epic when the time comes.

Bullshit.


I've been getting PM's telling me to be more optimistic. Believe me, I am trying SO HARD. Try to understand wiring all your savings several days past and waking up to this.

[Martin Weiss]

Bottom line for me (as a 10 day owner of R1)-

Even in 10 years time I will be able to shoot with the R1, and it will be comparable to 35mm.

Red one is not obsolete, its only that we now have more options.

If you are happy with a Scarlet, you can sell your camera at a slight loss to someone who wants to buy an Epic. Until Scarlet ships, you'll be getting a very cheap rental.

So while I understand your reaction, I don't see today's announcements as grim news for us recent R1 owners.

[number6]

Bullshit.


I've been getting PM's telling me to be more optimistic. Believe me, I am trying SO HARD. Try to understand wiring all your savings several days past and waking up to this.

Hey Buddy! Try wiring all your savings for TWO RED Ones and then eating beans and turning off your water heater and keeping the air-conditioner off all summer in 100 degree heat to keep your electric bill low just so you can complete both transactions. Try buying one tank of gas per month so you can maybe buy a used Nikon mount lens on ebay to stick on the end of your cameras when they arrive. I could go on and on but that would one-upping you to the extreme. So when I give you advice on this, I am speaking from experience. You can still feel bad if you want to, but I choose to be Lou Gherig (without the disease part). That is, today I feel I am the luckiest man on the face of the earth!

Your emotional make-up may vary:tongue:

[Johann Schulz]

Joe, you're starting to #@$! me off, and that's not easy....

Here's a simple test question: Do you need a great camera to make a film now?

If your answer is yes, and you're getting your camera soon, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

If your answer is no, well, you're still a nobody....
(I know - 'nobody' is strong wording, and everyone's a somebody. Could you imagine not having a body!? :sarcasm:

[Kreisky]

Im so glad that I canceled my order !!!!

[Brice Ansel]

Joe, you're starting to piss me off, and that's not easy....

Here's a simple test question: Do you need a great camera to make a film now?

If your answer is yes, and you're getting your camera soon, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

If your answer is no, well, you're still a nobody....

Making a movie doesn't make you beeing someone.

[number6]

Making a movie doesn't make you beeing someone.

History shows it helped Spielberg... Lucas... others. but I do see your point. One could also make a revolutionary camera for instance.

[Mike Harrington]

go easy on the guy....

i feel some of the frustration...but i am more exited for the things to come...

you still have the best camera going for the price...total upgradability...

and really....Red could be late with all this.....we could be looking at 2010?

[Brice Ansel]

Beeing someone as nothing to do with movie making.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

Did you really expect RED to pump all of their R&D into the REDONE and spend the next twenty five years sending us free upgrades?

I think the line "rendering osolescence obsolete" is being taken way too literally.

Free audio board upgrades, free firmware upgrades, free iPins upgrade, exchange programs for higher end camera systems (like the EPIC) - that says it all to me.

I am glad that RED is forging ahead AND taking care of their customers in the process.

Be happy! You have a great camera!It produces amazing images - and always will.

You have not been shafted.

[Johann Schulz]

breizo, don't worry, you're somebody. ;>)

[Brice Ansel]

Hé hé I wasn't talking about that.
Brice

[Jonas Nyström]

I just spent $20,000 + and was likely to spend more on a camera that is still on the FED EX truck and already this camera has just been "RENDERED OBSOLETE" by the people who promised me (us) that it never would.

I sort of expected this from the EPIC-- but now Scarlet is a substantially better camera than my yet unboxed RED ONE.

(Oh, by the way. For a year I've been told the RED ONE is 12 MP. Today's news says 9.2. What the hell is with that.)

This morning I sort of feel like RED did an Indiana Jones on me South Park style.

Still, You have a great camera now. Scarlet and Epic is still far away (i've waited a good year for my Red, 6 month later than estimated). And I'm sure you can return the camera if not satified.

[cjethomas]

I think the operative word in "rendering obsolescence obsolete" is the word "rendering."

Later today, you'll have a fully working RED ONE camera.

Scarlet and Epic currently exist as renders only. No firm release dates, no firm specs, nothing. Today's announcement was a roadmap of what could be released. Until the brains exist in the real world, there is no more reason to believe today's versions of Scarlet and Epic than the versions announced earlier this year.

Like the others have said, if you needed a camera today, then there's no reason to be disappointed. If you didn't, then why buy ONE in the first place?

JET

[JohnF]

Be happy! You have a great camera!It produces amazing images - and always will.

You have not been shafted.

Absolutely...

RED and the RED1 has been one of the best things to happen to this industry for many many years.

I'm still planning a shoot with the RED1 despite today's announcements. Why? Because the camera is still brilliant and can do things almost no other camera on the market today and certainly not at the price.

I'm envious that you're getting your camera tomorrow! Enjoy it!!!

All the best

JohnF

[Phil Bates]

Joe, I can understand your frustration, with all that's going on it's an emotional rollercoaster. But still, you end up way ahead with this camera!

It's always about the big picture.

:)

Phil

[Clint Johnson]

From the sounds of it, Joe was going to hermetically seal his Red One for a year and then start to try and rent it out for a premium... it doesn't make any sense to me but it is the only scenario where I can see this as bad news.

He certainly isn't planning to shoot anything himself or he would be ecstatic that he is about to take possession of an amazing camera that can take pictures that (I feel) are actually better than s35mm film under most circumstances.

[Graeme Nattress]

You may think the RED One obsolete. I don't - it's as good a camera today as it was yesterday. However, you as a RED One purchaser are not obsolete. Jim announced an upgrade policy unheard of in this (or any other industry I can think of).

Everything moves ahead, and this is by far and the best way to move cameras and users forwards - an aggressive schedule, products that suit a wide range of needs, upgradeable brains and a company behind the product that is made up of camera users, camera fans, stills shooters, video shooter, film shooters, who will talk to you and listen to you.

Graeme

[number6]

And I'm sure you can return the camera if not satified.

That may be the real test. After receiving the camera and using it for a few days, would he be willing to send it back for his money?

I'm quite satisfied with mine and while I would like to have a more manageable Scarlet for difficult shots (was laying on the roof yesterday looking up trying to locate some Sandhill Cranes I was hearing overhead... the sun was to the South but the southern half of the sky was covered with a wispy haze that functioned like a Neutral Density filter while the northern sky was clear but a very dark blue. The formation of cranes, at about 2,000 feet, came out of the dark blue into the filtered diffused light with wisps of clouds above them. If only I'd had a light-weight Scarlet)... still, I don't think I'm overly eager to get a new Epic.

Maybe when the need for one arises and the finances comply. Nice to know that (presumably) whenever I choose to make that upgrade or if I choose to take the Scarlet discount instead, I can get full price for my R1.

[Anthony Gratl]

Hey Buddy! Try wiring all your savings for TWO RED Ones and then eating beans and turning off your water heater and keeping the air-conditioner off all summer in 100 degree heat to keep your electric bill low just so you can complete both transactions. Try buying one tank of gas per month so you can maybe buy a used Nikon mount lens on ebay to stick on the end of your cameras when they arrive. I could go on and on but that would one-upping you to the extreme. So when I give you advice on this, I am speaking from experience. You can still feel bad if you want to, but I choose to be Lou Gherig (without the disease part). That is, today I feel I am the luckiest man on the face of the earth!

Your emotional make-up may vary:tongue:

now THIS is drama....i had no idea you had it in you number6......but i gotta ask...if it's that tight, why TWO redones? doesn't sound like your fiscally prudent republican self....

[Andrae Palmer]

The upgrade policy is extremely generous and you guys rocked on that. Some people will just have to deal with the fact that they don't have the latest and greatest. I know a few RED One owners that can't afford the 20k upgrade to an Epic... they are pissed. I personally like all the new updates today. I canceled two more RED one bodies we had an order. We don't have the funds to upgrade three RED Ones to Epic... plus pay for the accessories. We are now looking at upgrading to one Epic and ordering two Scarlet 6k's.

[David Mullen ASC]

I think this new design concept is truly brilliant (though there are some similarities with the SI-2K approach in terms of the "brain" module...)

I love the options in sensor size, I love the detachable menu control unit, I love the modular approach. Plus it will be easier for RED to update individual pieces of technology rather than a whole camera unit.

As for the RED ONE becoming "obsolete", I think that's nonsense. For one thing, every year a better camera comes along than the previous year, whether you are talking about Sony, Panasonic, RED, etc. so one should expect some heartbreak when one purchases a camera and then sees an even better camera on the market a year or two later. That's just the nature of electronics goods.

Second, people are still shooting mainstream productions on Sony F900's, a nine-year-old-plus technology. As long as a camera delivers good pictures, at the level the market demands, it is always useful for the owner for years and years down the road. Look at how long the basic Sony Betacams were being used, long after Digital Betacam and DV came along. Because the picture quality was fine for the market it was being used in, for two decades.

For most projects, the 4K RAW picture that the RED ONE delivers will be more than enough to satisfy a client, particularly for material destined for HD broadcast.

It's going to be interesting for me, the choice between 5K S35 sensors versus 6K FF35 sensors... is the quality jump from 5K to 6K worth the change from cine optics to still camera optics, plus the difference of two-stops worth of practical depth of field?

[Sidney L. Plaut]

Joe,

i got my camera yesterday - the announcement does not affect anything. R1 is the way to go now and prob. and for the next 2 years realistically speaking.

I have suspicion R1 will be phased out too - that way there´s a scarlet body and epic body - should be a lot cheaper only having 2 assembly lines in the "red factory"...

BUT Jim has promised both a sensor upgrade (that can be purchased) or a 17500 cash rebate on purchase of an epic.

That said, when scarlet comes out- why would you buy a red1 when you can buy a scarlet s35?

[Medavoym]

Graeme is right.

HOWEVER - I do see the point of those people who are a bit upset. They bought the RED ONE partly because of the "rendering obsolescence obsolete" phrase. They were the first to believe and have faith in RED, put down deposits, buy cameras, act as beta testers and practically get the company off the ground.

A bit later, people who didn't do anything of the above will be able to buy a better camera for less money. This can certainly make current owners think that RED ONE is obsolete - despite being given the chance to spend $20,000+ more for a shootable EPIC package, on top of the $17,500 credit. Many can't afford that - does that mean that the initial promise doesn't hold true for them? A true "rendering obsolescence obsolete" mantra should mean that RED owners will be given a credit toward ANY of the new products, especially that some are better and cost less money.

But progress can't be stopped. Marketing phrases shouldn't be taken literally. RED ONE creates superb images and those who have it are lucky, and will continue to be lucky for years to come. You can't stop the future and RED made the right choices today.

[Andrae Palmer]

That said, when scarlet comes out- why would you buy a red1 when you can buy a scarlet s35?

Exactly... plus people that bought a/multiple RED Ones can they afford to make the jump to another body? Yes the trade-in option is nice and very generous but some people can't afford it (not that I'm saying RED should make it affordable). Perhaps technologically the camera won't be obsolete... but professionally it will be. Who the heck will want to rent one? The industry is very elitist gear wise.

[Graeme Nattress]

So instead of getting an Epic, you get your sensor upgrade. I mean, it would be so nice to run a Santa Claus business, giving away presents each year to the good kids, but we all know that's not realistic. Instead, you get to upgrade as best as we can, or trade in as best as we can. Can't say fairer than that.

What about my Canon DSLR - do I get an upgrade sensor? Nope. Do I get money off the next camera or a trade in? Nope. How much money do I have invested in the Canon gear - a more than $17.5k. That's the reality for the rest of the industry.

Graeme

[Anthony Gratl]

As for the RED ONE becoming "obsolete", I think that's nonsense. For one thing, every year a better camera comes along than the previous year, whether you are talking about Sony, Panasonic, RED, etc. so one should expect some heartbreak when one purchases a camera and then sees an even better camera on the market a year or two later. That's just the nature of electronics goods.


David, with due respect, the second sentence (correct imo) contradicts the first...

[Stefan Scherperel]

Wow this thread really popped out at me. I am also recieving my Red 1 today, infact just got the notice from Fed ex that it has been delivered at the office and I'm on my way out there. But I couldn't be more excited, not only for recieving Red 1 but for the announcement of future sensor upgrades and the possibilites of scarlet. I just can't see how a camera that I have been coveting over for the last couple years has changed one bit with the announcement of possible upgrades. Now the big announcement I'm waiting for is the native adobe support plugin release. That is even more exciting to me right now than even the Scarlet/ Epic announcement.

[number6]

now THIS is drama....i had no idea you had it in you number6......but i gotta ask...if it's that tight, why TWO redones? doesn't sound like your fiscally prudent republican self....

Heh, Heh... Please, PLEASE.... INDEPENDENT self... I am anti party whether it be Communist, Democrat, OR Republican.

In answer to your question of why two R1s, it is because I have a plan. One that has Evolve-d :bleh: on a daily basis, but still the basic long-term plan is in place.

To put it into a nutshell, this camera even as originally conceived, convinced me that not only has the technology for shooting changed, but the options for the way we shoot have also changed.

Simply put, with this much resolution you can set up one camera unattended to shoot a scene from a static angle meaning when you get the scene right, you have a synced shot from camera 2 to cut into your footage.

That second camera has no expense other than the cost of it and the power to run it. It is a robot with a one-time cost, and you can look through that high resolution footage and pull out something 2k useable that just might make a so-so scene, perfect.

Plus, when you approach someone about financing or using a location or whatever, nothing says "Production House" like a brace of thoroughbreds.:w00t:

[Andrae Palmer]

I hear you Graeme.. but no matter how you try to paint it... the RED One has been made obsolete... perhaps not technologically but definitely professionally. I like the new options and can afford the upgrade but as I said earlier I know a few RED One users that cannot afford it and they are pissed. Albeit they should have seen what was coming and made plans for the change. I say if you own a RED One and can't make the jump to Epic... sell your camera NOW and get an high end Scarlet system.

[Nick Ambrose]

So instead of getting an Epic, you get your sensor upgrade. I mean, it would be so nice to run a Santa Claus business, giving away presents each year to the good kids, but we all know that's not realistic. Instead, you get to upgrade as best as we can, or trade in as best as we can. Can't say fairer than that.

What about my Canon DSLR - do I get an upgrade sensor? Nope. Do I get money off the next camera or a trade in? Nope. How much money do I have invested in the Canon gear - a more than $17.5k. That's the reality for the rest of the industry.

Graeme

I think the trade-in program is truly unbelievable.

I cannot name another company that does anything close. More usually, they are all just deliberately crippling and reducing functionality precisely to make people "upgrade" and pay more.

I dont get all the complaints honestly.

[Anders Holck]

It's going to be interesting for me, the choice between 5K S35 sensors versus 6K FF35 sensors... is the quality jump from 5K to 6K worth the change from cine optics to still camera optics, plus the difference of two-stops worth of practical depth of field?

Whats interesting is also to test if any PL mount lenses actually cover the full 36x24 aperture...

[Jason Ing]

Maybe obsolete is too harsh a word.

Maybe part of his point is that an upgrade is nice, but $11-17k+ more expensive.

The Scarlet S35/FF35 that costs a substantial 5-10k less is equivalent or better then the Red One. So is there a possibility to downgrade?

I'm not complaining, though. I'll probably upgrade to the Epic if I can raise the money. Maybe I can get a very, very small part of that $700 billion government loan? :)

[Jason Ing]

Although, another way to put obsolete is...

Will Red be selling the Red One or will it be continued when Scarlet and Epic are in rolled out?

[Andrae Palmer]

I can't wait to see the prices of these new accessories... so far its looking like a 20k trade-in to the most affordable epic.


Although, another way to put obsolete is...

Will Red be selling Red Ones or will it be continued when Scarlet and Epics are in rolled out?

Good way to put it Jason. :whistling:

[Jason Ing]

Is this becoming obsolete.... the Birger mount?

[Paul Hazlett]

Sony Betacams were being used, long after Digital Betacam and DV came along. Because the picture quality was fine for the market it was being used in, for two decades.

SHHHHHHHHHH dont let the networks here you!!! Betacam SP is not dead I am still using my beta packages on a weekly basis. no longer daily but they are still making money. Like you said and what many have said all along, if your client is happy with the product run with it. Red One will be around and beautifull for a long time.

[A. Bastaki]

dude.. i opened a thread similar to yours so did 2 or 3 others who opened threads and hinted to what you are saying. I feel you buddy, and you made a very valid point.

Though I gotta say, I laughed at the southpark reference to their reference of indiana jones. lol. But .. I dont feel like i was done southpark style though... lol. I think it is great they made the new reds cheaper and more reachable .. a redone has become the same price of a sony ex3. I guess not many will buy those little crappy cameras anymore.

The indi filmmaker will get a better chance to prove himself... which is a great opportunity. It will be about content in two years time.. which is healthy.

The exchange program slightly complicates things though.

It is like you bought a nokia phone for $500 and sold it for $50. It's normal in the tech world. But for a 17,500 camera to be worth 3-4000 in a year's time... is not exactly normal.

True, sony, pany.. etc.. Dont have trade-ins... BUT ATLEAST... you can sell them for a couple of hundred dollars less after using them for a year. A fifth is cut off.. a quarter of the price goes away.. YES... not 3/4 of the price.

When you buy a leica camera.. its price stays.. the pice of the lenses.. stay.. the price of Arri cameras.. stay. Even Canon DSLR's their prices stay... a third at most is cut off of it's re-sale value in a year's time.

What I don't understand is.. why Red chooses to do a trade-in for an epic... they lose 17,500.. and won't trade-in a 12,000 dollar scarlet for say a few more thousands? Cause guys who go scarlet really can't make it for an epic yet... obviously.. not everyone is destined to make their money back in a year. (not speaking about myself)

Why the strange catch?

[M Most]

Maybe obsolete is too harsh a word.


Maybe. But here's a simple fact about modern, computer based techology. Everything based on it has a relatively short shelf life (compared to mechanically based technology), and is replaced by something that's considerably better and, more often than not, costs less. That's happened with processors, memory, storage, and, frankly, everything ever built by Apple. Regardless of the marketing phrases, it is virtually impossible to "render obsolescence obsolete," simply because it's a constantly moving target. The best you can do is probably what Red is doing, which is offering multiple upgrade paths to ease the pain, and trying to jump the technology more than the one generation that would usually be expected, thus lengthening the shelf life a bit.

[Andrae Palmer]

What I don't understand is.. why Red chooses to do a trade-in for an epic... they lose 17,500.. and won't trade-in a 12,000 dollar scarlet for say a few more thousands? Cause guys who go scarlet really can't make it for an epic yet... obviously.. not everyone is destined to make their money back in a year. (not speaking about myself)

Why the strange catch?

Great point.. I have friends that would LOVE a trade-in to Scarlet from the RED One. They are stuck in a hard situation and cannot raise the funds to trade-in to an Epic.

[Jason Ing]

Why the strange catch?

I don't think it's a catch. You buy Scarlet for Scarlet. Red One has a "grandfather clause" in it to protect customers.

I think people might find it "strange", though, because we're not used to "honor" and "generosity".

[M Most]

It will be about content in two years time..

It's about content now. It's always been about content. It's never been about camera technology, as much as some would like to think that it has.

[Jason Ing]

Great point.. I have friends that would LOVE a trade-in to Scarlet from the RED One. They are stuck in a hard situation and cannot raise the funds to trade-in to an Epic.

Maybe because Red won't be making Red Ones, so there is nothing to trade up to other then the Epic?

[Jason Ing]

Maybe. But here's a simple fact about modern, computer based techology. Everything based on it has a relatively short shelf life (compared to mechanically based technology), and is replaced by something that's considerably better and, more often than not, costs less. That's happened with processors, memory, storage, and, frankly, everything ever built by Apple. Regardless of the marketing phrases, it is virtually impossible to "render obsolescence obsolete," simply because it's a constantly moving target. The best you can do is probably what Red is doing, which is offering multiple upgrade paths to ease the pain, and trying to jump the technology more than the one generation that would usually be expected, thus lengthening the shelf life a bit.

Yeah, maybe people are taking the statement too literally and black and white. I think it's also meant to capture the spirit or philosophy that the company isn't trying to screw you over and gouge your eyes out knowing very well that they are holding back technology, milking you, and already producing the next "upgrade" for another hit up your backside.

But Scarlet S35 and FF35 which interchangeable mounts sort of put an interesting twist to things. I'm still trying to digest that one.

[A. Bastaki]

It's about content now. It's always been about content. It's never been about camera technology, as much as some would like to think that it has.

It has always been about content, content is king, but really, the quality of the image plays a big role too.

[Clint Johnson]

It seems that some people understood "rendering obsolescence obsolete" to mean that either; a) the Red One would be so advanced that no better camera would ever be created or b) Red Digital Cinema would supply perpetual upgrades for whatever price you could afford... for free if that was all you could afford.

Both of those interpretations are unrealistic in the extreme. I figured that Red would supply internal upgrades for as long as it was technologically feasible and then they next upgrade would be to an entirely new system. I didn't imagine that the upgrade to a new system would be as generous as a full value trade in... that is just crazy generous.

But that full value trade in is only feasible when moving to a more expensive system. Red Digital Cinema has to make money on the transactions or it goes out of business. The 12% discount (Jim's wording was ambiguous but I'm thinking that is 12% off the price of the Scarlet, not 12% of the Red One purchase price?) toward the considerably less expensive Scarlet, just because we bought a Red One, is also something I didn't expect. The Scarlet FF35 is a very sweet looking "brain" and $1,440 credit while keeping Red #351 is tempting... but is it tempting enough to pull me away from using #351 against an Epic?

Or will the Depression that we are heading into mean that I'll have to sell the camera off to someone who wants to trade it in on an Epic? That would be a sad end to my adventures with Red and I would really miss the roller coaster ride.

[XiaoSu Han]

I think a bit of a problem is that "the mass" has bought the RED ONE camera, it was possible for "the poor filmmaker" to grease up some money and buy a 4K camera.

If you are a big rental house and just invested millions in a fleet of F900's and then after two years, there's an upgrade, that wouldn't be the reaction.

It's bad if a private person shed's out 20k USD from everything he/she has and the next moment something better, but cheaper, get's announced, I understand why he or she might be pissed.

Perhaps RED needs to look into a "downgrade" programme to Scarlet as well, like having a choice to for example either:

a) Buy an additional Scarlet and get 12% off
b) Trade the RED ONE in for 12000 USD (Scarlet FF35 Brain) or 7K S35 Brain and 5k of accessoires.

The only problem with b is: what is RED going to do with all those R1's returned?

Option b would make purchasing a R1 easier I guess at the moment.

[Andrae Palmer]

RED has done more than what most companies have for an upgrade path. I agree that many R1 owners can't afford the trade-in path to an Epic but heck life is rough and not everyone can be on top of the bone pile. A touch of elitism has been introduced into RED... the socialist will cry in great pain now... but hey it was never about the camera.. that was a false myth. Making movies is an high finance game and will always be. I know many rental companies will be happy for this change.

[Kholi Hicks]

It has always been about content, content is king, but really, the quality of the image plays a big role too.

Dunno why people insist on spitting out that tired tripe. "Content is King". Yeah, we know, that's why you're on RED boards and not on VHSuser.com.

I'm with you, Akube. The image matters, as it is MOVING PICTURES.

[Kholi Hicks]

RED has done more than what most companies have for an upgrade path. I agree that many R1 owners can't afford the trade-in path to an Epic but heck life is rough and not everyone can be on top of the bone pile. A touch of elitism has been introduced into RED... the socialist will cry in great pain now... but hey it was never about the camera.. that was a false myth. Making movies is an high finance game and will always be. I know many rental companies will be happy for this change.

I like this guy. Well, as long as you're not getting an FF35 Scarlet, then I'll be jealous. =T

[Ralph Wong]

Just got my camera two months ago, and I'm part of the group that's a little pissed. When I initially heard about Scarlet, the rumors had it being only a 2/3" sensor with a fixed lens. I felt I wanted at least a 35mm sized sensor with interchangeable lenses, so forking over the $17,500 was worth it for the added features. Now, it looks like the Scarlet WILL be a superior camera to the RED one at half the price! Everybody keeps saying that technology always moves forward and we should expect this. Look at the iPhone that went from $600 to $200 in the course of a year (and the $200 phone is better). The problem with this argument is that when you take a loss on smaller purchases like an iPhone or a computer, you may lose a couple of hundred dollars in value over the course of a year. If the Scarlet sells for around $15,000 with necessary accessories, current RED buyers will lose around $10,000 in the course of a year. It makes me wonder who would want to buy a RED One at this point unless they really needed to shoot something now. And for the people who wonder why I bought the camera if I didn't need to shoot something now, it's because RED told me I had to or I would lose my reservation number and credit for accessories.

[Andrae Palmer]

And for the people who wonder why I bought the camera if I didn't need to shoot something now, it's because RED told me I had to or I would lose my reservation number and credit for accessories.

At 8 am in the morning I got calls that said... What the #$%@ just happened? Those calls were from other R1 owners. They brought up similar points to yours. The RED One is frigging obsolete and I don't care how anyone tries to paint it. I'm damn happy I canceled the two more REDs I had on order.

I'm happy that RED made these announcements. I'm even happier I didn't get myself into a rut that I cannot get out of. Heck this is like gambling. If you've got a R1 now and you are pissed... its time to start hustling to get an Epic or sell your R1 NOW and get a Scarlet.

[HD Bubaloo]

I got news for you jerkys who are complaining. Apparently all your whiners seem to think that after the Scarlet and Epic, Jim is retiring from innovation. Well I have a weird feeling that 28k doesn't cut it for him. I suppose this same crew will whine when the RED Devastator 100k camera comes out and makes your Epic 645 or Scarlet FF35 "obsolete". Check your thought process. Your still only 2.5K higher than the competition to begin with and thats with the RED ONE.

[Andrae Palmer]

I got news for you jerkys who are complaining. Apparently all your whiners seem to think that after the Scarlet and Epic, Jim is retiring from innovation. Well I have a weird feeling that 28k doesn't cut it for him. I suppose this same crew will whine when the RED Devastator 100k camera comes out and makes your Epic 645 or Scarlet FF35 "obsolete". Check your thought process. Your still only 2.5K higher than the competition to begin with and thats with the RED ONE.

Do you own anything from RED?

[A. Bastaki]

Do you own anything from RED?

Lol.. I bet he shoots on a sony :P

[Kholi Hicks]

Do you own anything from RED?

Lmfao. Ownt.

People attacking EXISTING RED OWNERS need to get a grip. These are the people that funded this project. To attack them when they have every right to feel threatened is silly-as-hell.

[Andrae Palmer]

Lol.. I bet he shoots on a sony :P

Probably a DVX100 user.

[Jason Ing]

I'm a little confused about something, though.

right now, if you want red one capabilities, you wait for a scarlet. so people are stopping their orders. but... if you want an epic, you have to order a red one to be able to upgrade to an Epic? but eventually people will choose either the scarlet or epic, not the red one. so is Red going to continue to make red ones just for the sake for the people who eventually want to get an epic anyway? that's the only reason to buy a red one now, right? ok... not the only reason, if you need to shoot in the coming year, the red one is the best out there. but still... it seems like making red ones in the next year doesn't make sense for red. i guess they'll be a still be a market for the red one? but jim knows what he's doing and I'm just a little peon fanboy. haha.

[HD Bubaloo]

Yes I do. And I will trade it in as it is a generous offer and I will buy a scarlet as a second camera.
Thanks for asking. Be a big kid and continue to make money with your camera, trade it in or keep it.

[XiaoSu Han]

I feel exactly like Jason does, so the RED ONE should get a Scarlet downgrade programme.

[A. Bastaki]

I dont get it! how can something that is 17.5k, is 7k a year later??? Only the newer product is way better than the previous.

Something is clearly off.

Please give me an example of a "camera", please no other product bullshit.. we are talking about cameras here, so give us an example of another "camera" that was generations ahead in technology and was so drastically cheaper the following year.

I am not speculating... I have a question.. I would like to be answered.

[Andrae Palmer]

If the new accessories were available I would have went ahead and ordered two more REDs.. but heck i'm not rich enough to buy outdated EVF's, Drives, batteries, LCDs, cradles, etc.

[Andrae Palmer]

Yes I do. And I will trade it in as it is a generous offer and I will buy a scarlet as a second camera.
Thanks for asking. Be a big kid and continue to make money with your camera, trade it in or keep it.

Dude RED stickers don't count.

[HD Bubaloo]

Prepare to be very unhappy when Scarlets and Epics over saturate the market. At these price points, trading up makes a lot of sense. Trading up is offered on any version of Epic. So you can get in for as little at $ 11k with your RED One trade for a new Epic 6k

[Andrae Palmer]

Prepare to be very unhappy when Scarlets and Epics over saturate the market. At these price points, trading up makes a lot of sense. Trading up is offered on any version of Epic. So you can get in for as little at $ 11k with your RED One trade for a new Epic 6k

I'll agree with you there... but trading up is a lot higher than 11k.

[Ivan G]

I think there's room for ranting and praise here.

Not everyone is excited about the news...

Scarlet to wipe out the RED? Who saw that coming, nobody! Nobody saw 28K coming either. I guess for those early birds it's not as bad for the rest that are now receiving their R1s. I got mine in April and I'm kind of bummed.

If you don't own a RED and here to try and cheer someone up with using "JERK". Shut the fuck up and don't say anything at all.

[HD Bubaloo]

Andrae Palmer I get it already. How old are you? Stickers, DVX100, okay good for you. Maybe instead of trying to be funny, focus on paying off your camera by getting a few decent gigs so its a non issue. All my cameras are paid for and have made me money. If you just got your camera, master it and get booked on some higher end gigs. If your not an in demand DP/operator/DIT/Rental House, etc, then I have no advice except for sell your Red One now and pick up another trade.

[HD Bubaloo]

Abu Reno, I haven't heard any non owners using words like that.

[A. Bastaki]

I think there's room for ranting and praise here.

Not everyone is excited about the news...

Scarlet to wipe out the RED? Who saw that coming, nobody! Nobody saw 28K coming either. I guess for those early birds it's not as bad for the rest that are now receiving their R1s. I got mine in April and I'm kind of bummed.

If you don't own a RED and here to try and cheer someone up with using "JERK". Shut the fuck up and don't say anything at all.

I am an early bird.. had it for a year... im slightly.. slightly.. bummed.

[number6]

I feel exactly like Jason does, so the RED ONE should get a Scarlet downgrade programme.

This might work, but in doing so, an ouner would probably have to send in his or her camera RIGHT NOW! and wait until the ones who kept their RED Ones and exercised their right to purchase Scarlet at a discount were accommodated.

Then RED could rent those cameras back out to those who did the trade in for the Scarlet at say.... a thousand a week. (Hope you don't need a camera for any possible 52 week wait)

[Lexicon]

Well, I knew these kinds of threads were coming. All I can really say is be smart and be safe when it comes to spending your money. As the saying goes in the video game industry, "Save early. Save often."

[DoubleORed]

Now, it looks like the Scarlet WILL be a superior camera to the RED one at half the price!

Can you PLEASE relax people????

NO ONE will have his hand on a Scarlet for at least 8-9 months! They will have to add tons of accessories anyway!

[number6]

I am an early bird.. had it for a year... im slightly.. slightly.. bummed.

Yeah, but that's just because yours is all banged up and scratched and has salt damage? :detective2: :biggrin:

[A. Bastaki]

Yeah, but that's just because yours is all banged up and scratched and has salt damage? :detective2: :biggrin:

not anymooooooore :D .. dude.. don't even try.. I am happy with my RED.. and I plan on Keeping it.

[Andrae Palmer]

Andrae Palmer I get it already. How old are you? Stickers, DVX100, okay good for you. Maybe instead of trying to be funny, focus on paying off your camera by getting a few decent gigs so its a non issue. All my cameras are paid for and have made me money. If you just got your camera, master it and get booked on some higher end gigs. If your not an in demand DP/operator/DIT/Rental House, etc, then I have no advice except for sell your Red One now and pick up another trade.

I really don't think you OWN a RED one... in any case I have enough funds to trade into the highest priced Epic. I never stated that I personally had any financial problems. I was just about to purchase two more RED Ones that I canceled today. I stated that many of my friends cannot afford to trade into the most affordable Epic due to the additional 20k needed.

[Clint Johnson]

For those who won't buy a Red One because something better is coming along in a year... I suggest you hold off on buying a Scarlet or Epic when they come out since something better will be available from Red soon after that... but don't buy that one either since shortly after that there will be an even better camera... that you should likewise avoid since it will, of course, soon be superseded by yet another camera.

Red is a journey, not a destination.

[Marc Berger]

Joe,
RedOne is a fantastic camera! I´m still loving it. It´s the most amazing tool I ever worked with. And it´s real today! You can start shooting right away. How many more months will it take to see the first Scarlet which is not a computer render? And how many months more until you will have it in your hands?
(BTW, I´m sure, if you want Scarlet with sound and everything else like the Red1 includes, you will also end with 17K or more).

RedOne is awesome!!! Enjoy unpacking and start shooting with it!
Just do it and you will see!

Cheers
Marc

[M Hsu]

Is there a reason to buy a red one now at all when you can rent and when discounted red ones on the for sale list aren't even selling?

If you're not a red one owner, the news is amazing, the scarlet s35 is a red one for $7000 with a canon mount built into it. Stunning!

As a recent red one owner with a birger mount, the news is a bit like finding out that the bentley you took posession of is now selling for half and is lighter to boot. You can trade up to the sports bentley but that will cost you a third more of the purchase price plus new accessories, so almost double.

Still, Red is being very generous about the epic trade in and the announcements are amazing. Jim is doing incredible things, I don't have enough superlatives really...

If I could just trade my red in for the scarlet ff35 with the IO box, redmote, red riser and CF module, I would be completely happy. Hopefully the used market will support that.

Now THAT, that would be obsolescence rendered obsolete.

[Andrae Palmer]

For those who won't buy a Red One because something better is coming along in a year... I suggest you hold off on buying a Scarlet or Epic when they come out since something better will be available from Red soon after that... but don't buy that one either since shortly after that there will be an even better camera... that you should likewise avoid since it will, of course, soon be superseded by yet another camera.

Red is a journey, not a destination.

Different logic... the Scarlet is more modular and the RED One accessories are different and in many ways inferior to the newly announced products. But by all means do what suits you the best.

[HD Bubaloo]

I really don't think you OWN a RED one... in any case I have enough funds to trade into the highest priced Epic. I never stated that I personally had any financial problems. I was just about to purchase two more RED Ones that I canceled today. I stated that many of my friends cannot afford to trade into the most affordable Epic due to the additional 20k needed.

Who doesn't own a RED One in this business? That is the point. The market is saturated. Having 3 million Scarlets kicking around isn't going to fix your financial problems.

Sorry to break it to you but if your getting hired based on what equipment you own rather than your talent, that pretty much puts you in the rental game. If that is the case, rent out your RED One. Sell it, trade it, or use it. You win on all three counts.

[Andrae Palmer]

Who doesn't own a RED One in this business? That is the point. The market is saturated. Having 3 million Scarlets kicking around isn't going to fix your financial problems.

You sound more and more like a poser with every statement. Thanks for stating the obvious about the rentals though.

[HD Bubaloo]

No Andrea, your the member of some exclusive club. Maybe that's part of the problems you're having. You think you are the only one who forked out cash to be first. Now you feel as your second and that hurts. I am not here to battle with you. I feel bad for you. Chin up buckaroo, its going to be fine.

Something new will be announced next year, and the year after that, and so on and so forth. Either play catchup, don't jump the gun or be content with what you have. A hammer is a hammer. Make houses.

[Andrae Palmer]

Something new will be announced next year, and the year after that, and so on and so forth. Either play catchup, don't jump the gun or be content with what you have. A hammer is a hammer. Make houses.

I couldn't agree with you more... thats why I will be trading up to a top of the line Epic and a few Scarlet 6k's. You really should follow your own advice and at least purchase one item from RED.... support a great company.

[HD Bubaloo]

What else do I not own? Get over yourself dude. Your one of many owners, your not special. Sorry your taking it a lot harder than some of us but don't talk shit because your embarrassed or genuinely upset.

[SandeepDey]

I barely have my RED One. I haven't yet shot a single frame (waiting on a glass delivery).
I feel slightly let down by the Scarlet, too close to the RED for the price differential. But I will probably be upgrading to an EPIC and get a Scarlet as a second unit.
It is obvious the 11/13/08 announcement is a day of mixed reaction for the not-so-early adopters.

[SandeepDey]

But hey life ain't fair...it could have been Sony coming out with a better, BIGGER and a killer of a camera (with no competetive swap for RED).
Or yet another Jannard think-alike announcing the BLACK.

Now that is something to chew on... and thank our souls for the upgrade path!

[Andrae Palmer]

Your one of many owners, your not special.

Obviously you may have felt a little left out in the cold and now you are exhibiting troll like behavior. I for one am greatly looking forward to the Epic so that I can feel more special. :biggrin:

God bless you in acquiring your Scarlet.

[AntiMutant]

Everyone let down by this news, and those "relieved" that they haven't bought a R1 yet, should understand. In a few short years, at most, the Epic and Scarlett will be as "obsolete" as the R1 and F900.

Honestly, look at technology over the last few years. You will be able to buy an "Epic-Killer", whether from Red, or another company, for much less money than any of us think possible today.

Obviously Red liked the SI-2K modular design. Sony or Canon or Panasonic is going to see what Red is doing and do the same.

I understand the disappointment, actually. I have a Red and an SI-2K. Gear sluts are in for an expensive ride to stay on top.

Soderburgh just shot 2 films with the Red. Danny Boyle just shot his Slumdog Millionaire with the SI-2K. I bet these guys are up at night wondering why they didn't wait for the Scarlett! :wacko:

Rant over. Yes I have that twinge of pain at the crazy rate of obsolescence in technology, but then I remember that I can get back to work and make movies, with my own cameras, that I could never have made (image quality-wise) a few years ago.

[HD Bubaloo]

Don't get me wrong Andrae, the gut took a hit on the announcement, but after a few hours of thinking about it, and upgrading (like you have decided as well) I am happy with my choices so far. Upgrading to Epic is a great option. I have to look forward. Getting a Scarlet couldn't hurt for B camera as well. Shit lets be honest, its a great A camera too.

Glad to see you feel better. Wasn't trying to bust balls.

[Andrae Palmer]

Glad to see you feel better. Wasn't trying to bust balls.

OK we are friends now... I take all my nasty comments back. If you are ever in South Florida lets have a few drinks.

[Joe Taylor]

Joe,
RedOne is a fantastic camera! I´m still loving it. It´s the most amazing tool I ever worked with. And it´s real today! You can start shooting right away. How many more months will it take to see the first Scarlet which is not a computer render? And how many months more until you will have it in your hands?
(BTW, I´m sure, if you want Scarlet with sound and everything else like the Red1 includes, you will also end with 17K or more).

RedOne is awesome!!! Enjoy unpacking and start shooting with it!
Just do it and you will see!

Cheers
Marc

Good advice. Thanks, Marc.

[HD Bubaloo]

(Andrae) Cool.

[Kholi Hicks]

Everyone let down by this news, and those "relieved" that they haven't bought a R1 yet, should understand. In a few short years, at most, the Epic and Scarlett will be as "obsolete" as the R1 and F900.

Honestly, look at technology over the last few years. You will be able to buy an "Epic-Killer", whether from Red, or another company, for much less money than any of us think possible today.

Obviously Red liked the SI-2K modular design. Sony or Canon or Panasonic is going to see what Red is doing and do the same.

I understand the disappointment, actually. I have a Red and an SI-2K. Gear sluts are in for an expensive ride to stay on top.

Soderburgh just shot 2 films with the Red. Danny Boyle just shot his Slumdog Millionaire with the SI-2K. I bet these guys are up at night wondering why they didn't wait for the Scarlett! :wacko:

Rant over. Yes I have that twinge of pain at the crazy rate of obsolescence in technology, but then I remember that I can get back to work and make movies, with my own cameras, that I could never have made (image quality-wise) a few years ago.


Know how to render obsolescence obsolete? Start making decent features and selling them so that you don't have to own.

Better get R done.

[Appleguy]

I think it's just the shock of this news that is making Red One owners pollute their britches.
As it settles down you'll realise several things:

It'll probably be at least six months before these models are anywhere near ready as stated release dates are subject to change (echoes of red One release there).

The Epic exchange is a great thing giving people a good six months to save up the cash for the extra.
(Ithink Red are offering the exchange with only one model of scarlet because they'd make less money back on the exchanges on the other scarlet models. They want to be loyal to customers but thay have to make a few quid.

The Red one is still incredibly cheap for what it offers and because a cheaper variant has come out peopel are crying foul. Don't forget what Sony were charging for there pissant HDcams and the like.

My Red One is yet to be delivered, Iam nervous but happy at the same time.
I do believe though that the upgrade to Epic is probably worthwhile I really think they'll cease manufacturing the Red One sometime after Scarlets release, regardless of this sensor upgrade.

[Jan Reiff]

i can´t follow all this threads today.

1) it usual that electronic is improved in more and more short time-periods.
2) red one IS STILL a great camera.
and there is no delivery of any of the new cams yet. so - relax and shoot the next 12-15 month without thinking of something better or not. we have to tell stories and we have to visualize good ideas. and red one is a great tool for this, nothing changed because of this day.
3) red one is a classic, a pioneer device. without red one and all of us who purchased it - there would not be a scarlet, and no epic. all of us are part of the development of even better cameras with our feedbacks and experiences about our redone.

so please - go on and shoot with red one until there are more hard facts of final delivery and specs ... , collect experiences with red one that will flow into new red cameras. from my side, a big applause for the new products. looking forward to all of this, and looking forward for my shoot at the weekend - with red one :biggrin:

[Hrvoje Simic]

I just spent $20,000 + and was likely to spend more on a camera that is still on the FED EX truck and already this camera has just been "RENDERED OBSOLETE" by the people who promised me (us) that it never would.

I sort of expected this from the EPIC-- but now Scarlet is a substantially better camera than my yet unboxed RED ONE.

(Oh, by the way. For a year I've been told the RED ONE is 12 MP. Today's news says 9.2. What the hell is with that.)

This morning I sort of feel like RED did an Indiana Jones on me South Park style.



I barely have my RED One. I haven't yet shot a single frame (waiting on a glass delivery).
I feel slightly let down by the Scarlet, too close to the RED for the price differential. But I will probably be upgrading to an EPIC and get a Scarlet as a second unit.
It is obvious the 11/13/08 announcement is a day of mixed reaction for the not-so-early adopters.



You guys don't have the slightest clue what your new camera is capable of.
Did you buy the camera to brag about it or to capture beautiful moving images ?

Well you can capture beautiful moving images.
Great effort and technical achievements have been made, which you are not aware of, just so you could to that.


The bad feeling is caused by your ego. Deal with that and enjoy the ride.

[Jonas Nyström]

Try your Red One before you...

[Marc Tringali]

Well, now you own a Red One! I would so love to say the same thing. I hear what your saying, but I also think today's announcement made all your alternatives much more obsolete than your new Red One. Like so many other folks have noted, you'll have several months to use your camera and you'll still qualify for the exchange programs. An accountant may be able to explain the nuances of that benefit to you better than I can. Its like you just put a Scarlet, or Epic on layaway and got a loaner until next Summer.

[Jason Ing]

This time I beat him... heheh.

Jim will be by to post a link to another one of his recent posts that addresses all the crap going around the forum:

The "electronic engines" are different between each of these camera models. That means there are format capability differences. For example, the RED ONE has 4K, 3K, 2K, 1080P (soon) and anamorphic format options. It does ramping, time-lapse, has 4 channel 24-bit audio, etc. Scarlet will NOT have the full flexibility of a RED ONE. EPIC has more capability and flexibility than the other two. It is one of the reasons that the Scarlet body is smaller than an EPIC.

Just so you can figure that into your planning.

Scarlet will have limited format options.

RED ONE has many format options.

EPIC has virtually unlimited format options.

[Michael Hastings]

I dont get it! how can something that is 17.5k, is 7k a year later??? Only the newer product is way better than the previous.

Something is clearly off.

Please give me an example of a "camera", please no other product bullshit.. we are talking about cameras here, so give us an example of another "camera" that was generations ahead in technology and was so drastically cheaper the following year.

I am not speculating... I have a question.. I would like to be answered.

Well, you could make a pretty good case for it when MiniDV was introduced in 1995. One year the highest quality camcorders were recording Betacam 4.2 Mhz or about 350 lines of resolution at 46 db signal to noise at about $30K+. MiniDV camcorders were producing and recording 5.5 MHz or about 440 lines at 54db SNR - a huge difference and the 3 chip MiniDV camcorders were only $3000. Now I can buy a widescreen version at circuit city for just over $200. The reason you didn't normally see the huge reductions is Japan, Inc. completely controlled the video market so Panasonic, Sony, et al would just dribble out the technology and control the pricing.

Bottom line is RED started this with the REDONE - four times the resolution at one fourth the price of an F900 - a sixteen times price/performance jump. Yet at $17,500 there was still a lot of room to move. So it is kind of silly when you think about it, to not anticipate that there was another round of drastic price reductions available. The mysteriumX and monstro chips are essentially 3 years newer technology, so a generation or two of technological/price advanced. The circuits themselves aren't that expensive and RED has even had time to develop custom chips if necessary, and now that the firmware/software is developed to a sufficiently professional level they can bring down those prices. Given that the introduction of the Canon 5D MKII means the writing is on the wall of where this is going and the old video model has been overturned, RED probably needs to move to the next phase without trying to be overly protective of the original model. (Remember with the trade in to EPIC they have given us a reasonable price protection.)

The way I look at it as far as practical economics is if you bought a REDONE you really bought an EPIC - the fully upgraded, polished/debugged, etc. supercamera we have all wanted.

And I don't mean we didn't get all we should have with the REDONE, I mean that in retrospect the REDONE is a real challenger to film - but it is borderline enough (3.2K effective debayered resolution, Dynamic range, limited frame rates at 4K, and fairly high compression) to keep the film/digital argument raging. When you get to the EPIC I think you really get to the filmkiller point in all of those areas.

We essentially gave them a $17500 deposit and will pay the rest when EPIC arrives - but in the meantime we have basically the best camera out there to use and make money with now. I got mine in January so have had enough time to make all of my investment back, and even if you just received your RED you have 6 to 9 months to do the same.

If you remember back to when the HVX200 (which had a lot of the features many of us had been looking for) was introduced at the NAB before we saw the REDONE - it was a block of wood in a case at the Pana booth. It is as if Panasonic had said - "look it will be a year and a half before you can get this but we will sell you a DVX100 and you can shoot with it until then and then we will give you full credit toward the HVX". But of course Panasonic didn't do that and neither has any other company - except RED.

If all you ever wanted was the Scarlet level "indycam" then I can see how you would be disappointed with having a RED now, and really your financial solution is to find someone that wants to get an EPIC down the road and will use your camera to trade in. But if you want the true filmkiller camera with specs as good or beyond what any of us really anticipate needing in our lifetime, then I think EPIC is it and you can be really happy that you have a REDONE to shoot and become familiar with now and a relatively painless step into the future.

[Andrae Palmer]

If all you ever wanted was the Scarlet level "indycam" then I can see how you would be disappointed with having a RED now, and really your financial solution is to find someone that wants to get an EPIC down the road and will use your camera to trade in. But if you want the true filmkiller camera with specs as good or beyond what any of us really anticipate needing in our lifetime, then I think EPIC is it and you can be really happy that you have a REDONE to shoot and become familiar with now and a relatively painless step into the future.

The problem is that people are pissed that they won't have top of the line anymore (when they were promised so)... because some can't afford to move to a decent Epic.. heck I wouldn't purchase the low end mysterium Epic. That means a R1 owner now must have the capability of mustering up around $27,500 (cost of accessories included... looks like we will need at least 4 new pieces). If they can't muster it up then they face 2 options of selling their camera or letting it turn into a old sentimental camera. RED didn't give these people an option to get a Scarlet... that kinda sucks... but hey its a tough world.

R1 owners now that want to be Scarlet users... what a change. In any case Scarlet users won't be pro cinematography users... good luck getting a decent cinematography job with that gear. Looks cool for low budget indies though.

[Michael Brennan]

Its about time RED rendered the slogan itself obsolete.

Lawyers could argue on the definition and use of the word "obsolete", but what is beyond argument is that many RED one buyers interpreted the slogan to mean that their purchase was future proof.

A (curiously) rare example of where RED has not being in touch with the karma/thoughts/desires of its customers.

I find it surprising that they continue to use it.

It begs the question that if the new "modular" kit is truly modular it will work with those cameras that are not obsolescent, like RED one.. right?


Mike Brennan

[danbrazda]

I'm sorry, did I miss something? I was just looking at some incredible footage I just shot with my Red One. Well, at least I thought they were incredible. Damn, now I have to trash them because they're obsolete. :bleh:

[Mennovandijk]

"Nov 13th 2008... the announcement of the potential of releasing something down the line" ~ Mike Seymour in RedCentre episode 20 :-)

You got a Red One now... so.. use it!

[Ken Willinger]

It begs the question that if the new "modular" kit is truly modular it will work with those cameras that are not obsolescent, like RED one.. right?


Mike Brennan

I think that really gets to the point for many Red One owners. Owning a Red One does not get you into the upgrade without a huge expenditure in a complete new system (way more than the $17,500 trade in).

Scarlet and Epic are not (outside of shared sensor) the same camera system and do not share the modularity. Beyond being able to upgrade the chip, there appears to be no connection of the Red One to the new system of cameras at Red.

So yes, I'll probably upgrade the chip in my Red One...but then I'm done. I can't go beyond that in staying with the program with Red...I will be obsolete with Red One...eventually...because I just can't afford, especially in this current market, to purchase a whole new system, that has not been adapted to accept the Red One.

I don't want anything free BTW. I just wanted to be able to stay in the program with my Red One. The new camera systems do not allow that.

Also I wanted to mention that I think Reds new modular camera systems are very cool and exceptionally promising. And I'm sure will make great waves in the industry.

[number6]

I think that really gets to the point for many Red One owners. Owning a Red One does not get you into the upgrade without a huge expenditure in a complete new system (way more than the $17,500 trade in).

Scarlet and Epic are not (outside of shared sensor) the same camera system and do not share the modularity. Beyond being able to upgrade the chip, there appears to be no connection of the Red One to the new system of cameras at Red.

So yes, I'll probably upgrade the chip in my Red One...but then I'm done. I can't go beyond that in staying with the program with Red...I will be obsolete with Red One...eventually...because I just can't afford, especially in this current market, to purchase a whole new system, that has not been adapted to accept the Red One.

I don't want anything free BTW. I just wanted to be able to stay in the program with my Red One. The new camera systems do not allow that.

Also I wanted to mention that I think Reds new modular camera systems are very cool and exceptionally promising. And I'm sure will make great waves in the industry.

getken, it sounds like you think that at some point your camera will simply not be viable for shooting as the DSMC SYSTEM continues to progress. I see it differently. If you can put some sort of cool disguise on the camera so no one can see you are shooting with one of those old "antique R1s" you will still be able to fool 'em with the footage.

[Mike Hechanova]

We've all heard the "its a great camera now" and "its not about having the latest and greatest" yadiyadayada. It comes down to lookin out for your investment. I'm sure the people who are upset wont stop making money with their RED (now) but when it comes time to sell, how much a loss will they take? I hope not Abu's prediction, but it will certainly be significant. And yeah, if you couldnt afford EPIC why would you sell anyway right? But then who thought Scarlet would bleed into R1 territory? Ok so there are limitations that separate the three but to say a 6k ff35 is in a lower league? i dunno.

IMO, if you don't want to take a loss then you WILL find a way to upgrade to EPIC. I remember telling my business partner before the big announcement "Watch we get cornered into an EPIC." That's pretty much what happened. I wouldn't say we can afford it, but I'd rather make big sacrifices to make it happen than take a big hit on resale.

As far as the Mysterium X upgrade, my guess it will be priced in similarly in the sense that you'd be dumb not to just step up to a base model EPIC. Cause say you upgrade your R1 to Mysterium X and then later want to trade up for EPIC. It's not like you'll get "X"tra credit (haha sorry that was cheesy) for your mxRED ONE.

Just some thoughts as an owner, but I'm glad there is a great option on the higher end. I'd better start working harder this next year to make shiz happen. :weight_lift:

[Andrae Palmer]

IMO, if you don't want to take a loss then you WILL find a way to upgrade to EPIC. I remember telling my business partner before the big announcement "Watch we get cornered into an EPIC." That's pretty much what happened. I wouldn't say we can afford it, but I'd rather make big sacrifices to make it happen than take a big hit on resale.

Its time some of you guys start giving blood... some places still pay for it. There's also the human experiment route to go for some extra cash.

[Sean]

As far as the Mysterium X upgrade, my guess it will be priced in similarly in the sense that you'd be dumb not to just step up to a base model EPIC. Cause say you upgrade your R1 to Mysterium X and then later want to trade up for EPIC. It's not like you'll get "X"tra credit (haha sorry that was cheesy) for your mxRED ONE.

Just some thoughts as an owner, but I'm glad there is a great option on the higher end. I'd better start working harder this next year to make shiz happen. :weight_lift:

I'd like to think the price for a Red One Mysterium X upgrade isn't so high that you should just buy an Epic. That wouldn't make any sense. I don't know what these sensors cost Red to buy in huge volume, nor what the profit margin needs to be on them. But once you've already invested in the early camera and a lot of accessories, many of which were prototypes in some way, then it stands to some reason that a sensor upgrade is much more economical than buying a whole new camera system.

[Mike Hechanova]

True that, Sean. I guess I should say best be sure we're not going the EPIC route anyway and have paid for the myserium X sensor when the R1 credit will remain the same.

[number6]

Agree Sean,

These aren't status symbols (well, they are I guess) they are supposed to be tools. You should be able to build a fantastic image with a sensor upgrade.

[Mike Hechanova]

Its time some of you guys start giving blood... some places still pay for it. There's also the human experiment route to go for some extra cash.

Well I secured our investor, so my partner will have to do the human experiment

[Andrae Palmer]

Well I secured our investor, so my partner will have to do the human experiment

LOL.. you are one of the smart ones.

[Ken Willinger]

getken, it sounds like you think that at some point your camera will simply not be viable for shooting as the DSMC SYSTEM continues to progress. I see it differently.

I don't think that at all. The Red One is ahead of the curve now and will be for some time as far as digital cinematography stands. I'm saying the new system does not include Red One in it's modular make-up and that the only way to upgrade the Red One is with a new sensor and new builds. But without buying a complete new camera system (Scarlet or Epic), the Red One does not allow you to move forward with the company.

[Jay A. Kelley]

This is crazy.. For the record, I still make more money on my Panasonic AJ-SDX900 than my RED.. And I'm pretty sure it's behind the times.

Jay

[number6]

I don't think that at all. The Red One is ahead of the curve now and will be for some time as far as digital cinematography stands. I'm saying the new system does not include Red One in it's modular make-up and that the only way to upgrade the Red One is with a new sensor and new builds. But without buying a complete new camera system (Scarlet or Epic), the Red One does not allow you to move forward with the company.

I agree with what you are saying, but at the same time I don't see how a R1 could possibly fit into a modular system. I suppose they could have tried to make a modular system based on the R1 configuration, but that would have been UGH-LEEEE!

I think they just decided that they had to make a break with a camera that had reached its potential and instead of following the Peter Principle, decided to just leave it in its level where it is superior and put new blood in the leadership roles. The R1 is still being kept in the loop as a consultant though:calm:

afterthought: this is a courageous thing this company has done. When you are successful beyond your wildest dreams and you arbitrarily decide you are gonna abandon a successful path to follow a visionary one... all you can do is bust out in the refrain from that old Hoyle Nix song "Big balls in cowtoun, we'll daince around...."

[Julio Quintana]

And I still make more money with my Panasonic DVX100 than with my Red.

[Brice Ansel]

Joe, did you have the opportunity to finally play with your brand new tool today?
If so do you feel better now?
Best regards
Brice

[Gunleik Groven]

This is about the most riddicilous thread ever.

How can the announcement of a camera that won't hit the users in another 6-12 months, render your new cashmachine obsolete?

And how does the better spec'ed new camera (that we all knew would come, @ least since NAB this year), have any impact on your feelings towards your brand new and very useable tool?

I don't get that, but you may be able to explain me what you ca do with Epic today, that you cannot do with a RED today... except dreaming on higher specs, of course (which of course is totally legit... But not very productive...)

[mpsyhk]

I recieved my RED 1 about 1 month ago, few months before my estimated delivery time. Totally happy with it, and not too worried about the new and improved camera. When it ships and is ready, ill just simply trade mine in and pay the remainder balance.

Red will always be RED. Best thing that has happened for all of us hehe.

Cheers,

[Ian Laurie]

R1 one month ago. love it. my confusion with this post? well, for starters, I think the modularity on these camera's is being given way to much weight. I mean is a modular audio board REALLY going to be drastically improved year over year? Lens mount?No. Well maybe a boot up time of 1 minute is just to long? Hmmm... nope that doesn't seem to be it.... Oh the sensor! i see... well my R1 can have the upgraded sensor... and who knows maybe they will give it a monstro upgrade a year later. or maybe a maestro the year after that.... so I will buy the sensor, while some of you will spend money on brain after brain... The only thing in the R1 i see going obsolete is the sensor, and red is not denying us the upgrade to that. I am happy. I was extremely nervous about scarlet up till i read the announcement. I am not nervous any more. I am not buying an Epic until I NEED an Epic. i will settle for the sensor upgrade.

I am not trying to irritate people or make them upset. Just think that everything is not being thought through. Cheer up all we still have a great camera.

[Tim Naylor]

Im so glad that I canceled my order !!!!

Why? So you can't shoot anything with your RED for a year? I just put an order in.

re: Joe, you just bought a one time initiation fee into a club. Can you imagine Sony or Panasonic giving a free upgrade chip or full trade in value for any of their cameras. Imagine all the guys who bought a Varicam a week before they updated to the H model. Now that would be something to be depressed about.

When my company's RED comes in, we'll be out of the gate shooting instead of counting the days till Scarlet or Epic arrives (who really knows when that'll be - I put my money on at least nine months). Eitherway, you should make enough money within that time with your R1 to offset your angst.

Also, Joe what would you rather have - no announcement of newer / better technology? It almost seems like that guy who hoped color film would never make after investing in a black/white lab.

[fightordie]

re: Joe, you just bought a one time initiation fee into a club. Can you imagine Sony or Panasonic giving a free upgrade chip or full trade in value for any of their cameras.


Sorry there is no free upgrade chip for the red one. You will have to pay.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

when its all done and said.. the audience wont know what was shot on scarlet vs red vs epic

most wont know what was 6k 5k 4k 3k 2k or film...

alot (like my girlfriend, mom, sisters) wont know what was shot on film vs red vs video vs hi-fi vs mini dv )

redone will continue to look as good as it does today

[conrad gaunt]

R1 one month ago. love it. my confusion with this post? well, for starters, I think the modularity on these camera's is being given way to much weight. I mean is a modular audio board REALLY going to be drastically improved year over year? Lens mount?No. Well maybe a boot up time of 1 minute is just to long? Hmmm... nope that doesn't seem to be it.... Oh the sensor! i see... well my R1 can have the upgraded sensor... and who knows maybe they will give it a monstro upgrade a year later. or maybe a maestro the year after that.... so I will buy the sensor, while some of you will spend money on brain after brain... The only thing in the R1 i see going obsolete is the sensor, and red is not denying us the upgrade to that. I am happy. I was extremely nervous about scarlet up till i read the announcement. I am not nervous any more. I am not buying an Epic until I NEED an Epic. i will settle for the sensor upgrade.

I am not trying to irritate people or make them upset. Just think that everything is not being thought through. Cheer up all we still have a great camera.

The processors are what will become obsolete first. Some of us thought the R1s larger body would take a dsp upgrade, especially since the scarlet/epic brains are smaller, maybe with some modified internal housing. not to be. The faster read reset on mysterium x might give the existing processors more time to, er, process, but its a serious oversight, and cost us 4k@60fps already.
I'd like to know, Will the upgrade be extended to the next generation of Red brains/sensors? I normally skip a generation of camera before upgrading, doesn't make sense not to, especially with a technology product like the R1 that will never go obsolete, but will I be forced to change my ways by Red, I sincerely hope not. My next upgrade will likely be 2011/12, probably the latter.