Umm... 28K?

[Jeremy Hughes]

The Epic 617 is 28K? Twenty-eight thousand? What?! 261mp?!

Jim was right, it really is a "scam"!

Spring 2010. That's not too long for 28K. It's only 25fps max, but there's plenty of time for more revolutions to be added to it even.

$55,000. That's cheap. Brain only though, I guess you get an Epic and add it to it?

186x65. That's 2.86:1.

How are you going to edit this? Is FCS4 going to support editing 28K? We don't even have practical enough displays for 4K yet, and we are getting 28K?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it. I'm just in shock. I was expecting 6K, then I saw 9K scarlet and was shocked, then I saw 617.

[Emery Wells]

Its your neg man. Don't think about 28k display systems. Think about capturing the best possible image to start with.

That being said, this is obviously for the feature market, not the broadcast market. For 28k to be practical we'd need full R3D support across all apps and I think we're in good shape to get there by 2010. Still, at 500MB/sec we're talking about some very beefy hardware to make any kind of post workflow possible. Im more excited thinking about how to build the post solution than I am about the camera it self!

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

Post production needs to get it together - or should I say computer processors.

I tried working a 4K image in a color correct on a Lustre and even that beast couldn't keep up.

28K fugeddaboudit.

[Emery Wells]

Post production needs to get it together - or should I say computer processors.

I tried working a 4K image in a color correct on a Lustre and even that beast couldn't keep up.

28K fugeddaboudit.

Come play in our Scratch suite. :matrix:

[Jeremy Hughes]

Yeah, the computers... Where'd you get 500MB/s? [edit: REDCODE 500. Okay.] That's a lot. 1.7TB per hour!

Could you imagine the focal length you'd need to get a wide angle? Lenses are TBA.

P.S looks like it's got a built in monitor.

[Jeremy Hughes]

I just realized. It would be the highest resolution sensor ever.

[Graeme Nattress]

Well, I'd remember you can extract lower resolutions from the R3D. And think of the uses of cropping and panning over such a high resolution image. Could make for interesting creative possibilities for movie-making as well as sfx work.

Graeme

[Anders Holck]

Is there a way to implement a ROI in the SDK when decoding / debayering and only process within those bounds. Or is the only way to do a full decode, and then crop?

Could be pretty useful with framesizes like that.

[Jeremy Hughes]

Well, I'd remember you can extract lower resolutions from the R3D. And think of the uses of cropping and panning over such a high resolution image. Could make for interesting creative possibilities for movie-making as well as sfx work.

Graeme

Oh, absolutley. And you could have a natrual 2.35:1 6K and all. It would open a lot of possibilities for people with more average computers if it could record lower resolutions too.

[Jeremy Hughes]

Is there a way to implement a ROI in the SDK when decoding / debayering and only process within those bounds. Or is the only way to do a full decode, and then crop?

Could be pretty useful with framesizes like that.

Not to mention a whole lot quicker.

[Graeme Nattress]

Anders, good question, but I don't think we can go into the geeky technical details yet.

Graeme

[Daniel García]

That shoulder mounted 28K version must be a joke right? Where does the operator carry the 500Mb/s raid?

[Anders Holck]

Where does the operator carry the 500Mb/s raid?

No need to. Connect it remotely with an Optical fiber like infiniband...

[Benni Diez]

I think it's primarily for high-end photography.

But the opportunities for FX work are amazing! Imagine the panoramas you can capture with this thing and a fish eye!

[nevinstyre]

won't somebody think of the makeup artists!

[Jeremy Hughes]

I think it's primarily for high-end photography.

But the opportunities for FX work are amazing! Imagine the panoramas you can capture with this thing and a fish eye!

Almost any normal lens will be a fisheye with this camera!

[Benni Diez]

Hehe, I assume you'll need a truck for a telephoto lens then.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Imagine the next Digital Playground release, shot on 617. :)

[Kenn Michael]

P.S looks like it's got a built in monitor.

I don't think that's a monitor.... I think that's the sensor!

[Darren Orange]

Has anyone thought that maybe just maybe, you get 3 cameras pointed in a direction and you take whatever 4K shot you want from it? No more planning shots just get the action put cameras around and film it? Weird way to think about filming but still its a thought.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I don't think that's a monitor.... I think that's the sensor!


Welcome into the age when camera sensors are as big as your TV. :)

[Hrvoje Simic]

Where does the operator carry the 500Mb/s raid?

When that camera comes out 4 x 2.5'' SSD's in RAID will take that with no sweat. Not a problem to carry those.

[Craig Ryan]

First thoughts when i scrolled down and saw the bold "28k" staring me in the face at 1:40am...

1. Can't wait for this baby to venture off into space. This will be the NASA standard.

2. Can't wait for the first 3d feature; and a note to whoever is going to do this eventually: NO CGI SETS! I think the point of a camera like this is to capture real images at incredible detail. Imagine a WWII epic like this? English Channel PACKED with Higgins boats and you can make out the faces of every solider.

[silencer]

Its your neg man. Don't think about 28k display systems. Think about capturing the best possible image to start with.

That being said, this is obviously for the feature market, not the broadcast market. For 28k to be practical we'd need full R3D support across all apps and I think we're in good shape to get there by 2010. Still, at 500MB/sec we're talking about some very beefy hardware to make any kind of post workflow possible. Im more excited thinking about how to build the post solution than I am about the camera it self!

So these aren't serious comments, right? First, there's about a million things wrong with the comment about 28k being for the "feature market" let alone any market, with maybe the exception of photography. I can understand that completely. There's already a handful of medium format digital cameras capable of resolutions around that size.

I understand that technology is always improving and will continue to do so, but there's a limit to what becomes necessary for filming based on digital resolution verses perceivable resolution. Right now, I'm sure most of you know that the standard resolution for 35mm projection is 2k (if going off of the standard digital file, it's 1.8k). For imax it's estimated between 6k and 8k. It isn't more because people CANNOT perceive anything past that.

Also, the current RED cameras have a lot to answer to in terms of color depth. I'm curious to hear what this camera will have. You can claim the highest resolutions in the world for all I care, but it's still going to look like crap if it doesn't capture the color. I can tell you right now every transfer house will argue against the red when asked about which footage they think visually looks better.

And to that statement about panning and scanning with high resolution - unless it was intentional, which would be a very small niche market for a very select set of shots (i.e. nature documentaries) - that's a lazy parallel to "fix it in post", meaning the director didn't know what he was doing on set, and was relying more on technology then he should of.

Also, RED still doesn't have a stable post workflow for its current line up. Unless it's been fixed in the latest version, you have to sell your soul to get the files correctly into an Avid (because of the 32 bit sound, which is also another useless format). I'm talking about the NLE used by most feature film editors, the one you're claiming this market is for. If their 4k or 2k or whatever K cameras aren't completely compatible with NLE's as of right now, I don't see how a 28k is going to be any better in a year and a half.

Now with all that being said, I'm interested in how technology is being pushed, and what the people at RED are trying to achieve. But it irks me at how people from production to post production think these cameras are the savior for filmmaking. Get the first set of cameras right, then you can worry about better resolution. Post houses aren't going to build a workflow around insanely ridiculous resolutions when everything else (color, compression, viability, etc.) is lacking.

[Alex G. Cohn]

Will it even be possible for a human being to keep that thing in focus?

[Justin O'Neill]

Get the first set of cameras right, then you can worry about better resolution. Post houses aren't going to build a workflow around insanely ridiculous resolutions when everything else (color, compression, viability, etc.) is lacking.

For those of us who have worked with the RED One and the post workflow from day one on Aug. 31st last year we can appreciate how far everything has come in just one year. RED firmware and RED post literally improves month by month and in my experience a lot of post houses just aren't used to things changing this fast. I have conversations all the time with people at post houses complaining about issues that have been solved with the latest RED software releases.

The 28k 617 is at least a year and a half away so I have no doubt these issues will be worked out by then. Software development takes time. Just look at windows!

[Alberto Caprioglio]

Get the first set of cameras right, then you can worry about better resolution. Post houses aren't going to build a workflow around insanely ridiculous resolutions when everything else (color, compression, viability, etc.) is lacking.

Silencer,
sorry... do you have a brain?
or are you just insanely misinformed?
okay, to make it short, why don't you start to find yourself the link to "Knowing" (a movie starring Niicholas Cage) - you can doownload it also at 720p or 1080p if your ZX Spectrum can eat it, and see if color is good enough for you, or if compression and viability are lacking or not good enough, or too good to be good. I'd like to find it for you, if you had a brain, but I have not enogh time to throw out of the window right know - it should be easy - although you made me laugh.

For a second you almost made me think: what about if computers power will be only twice as fast next year? How could those companies with their render farms on only 100 workstations in parallel - or maybe 28K cameras are meant to be post processed by my grandmother on her miserable octocore notebook?

Are you unhappy?

[Alberto Caprioglio]

Where are all the lame people coming from? lame people complaining about everything but at the same time about nothing in particular... wingeing like babies.
One time they complain because in this exact moment single computers are not fast enough for a new camera design (and not yet a prototypes, as far as I know). Another time "2K is enough" and 3K is ridiculos to them so for that reason they say such fantastic creatures, the hard work of many people, are ridiculous. Another time compression is a bad concept to begin with, for them. Another time compression is not enough for the stream. This time it's the color which "is lacking" in his opinion.
If it has a single sensor, another stockfish is born for the sole purpose of pissing on single sensor cameras, then it disappear in the abyss.
Very interesting people.
They talk about shit, and they havent't started to use a Red camera consistently yet, if at all.
"weeeeee, weeeee...." Are these men? I'm getting tired.

These strange people who come up suddenly, don't bother to study a camera for 5 minutes, don't use it, are not interested in it or perhaps try to look like... some of whom go on and criticize everything, even the company's marketing, the owner's choices, the design of the prototypes, the prices, the release time, I don't know what next time.
Don't like it? don't buy it! What are they doing here, only complaining about products they don't want to buy? would they go to a car factory that produce a car that they don't like anyway, and start complaining?
And many of us the users, are even listening.

Who has invited such unhappy crabs? They are not customers, not newbies willing to learn, not curious, not geniuses, not polite...

[Petr Dvorak]

I was very surprised that vfx for last Batman was done in 8K on Shake - with some brutal tweaks for sure. (Because Shake is not capable to play flawlesly even 3K) Nuts! :ohmy:
But result is probably seamless.

http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/currentissue/9703.html

[Nick Ambrose]

The Epic 617 is 28K? Twenty-eight thousand? What?! 261mp?!


ha! I was just assuming that 28K was Jim's bday present to himself :)

[Joseph Ward]

645 and 617 will beat Super Hi-Vision/Ultra High Definition Video! haha

[Benni Diez]

Dudes...
Full resoluton real-time playback has always been an issue. There are many films that had 4K processing along the way. Many years ago, when there wasn't a single 4K projection system on the planet!
What RED does, and what's fantastic, is consider the statistics in technological advancement. They knew bigger and cheaper memory cards will be available by now, so they built their first system around that.
Remember when everyone was complaining about how unnecessary 4K is when RED1 came out? And now I cn handle that material on a f**in laptop! And displays are already on the way.
The 28K will be primarily for high-end photography. Just as the S35 chip lives up to 35mm film, the 617 chip will live up to panoramic film cameras. And probably be better - and deliver movie fps.
And after a little while, when memory prices and processing power have kept up, there will be people shooting features on this. Commercials. Moving print ads with lenticular coating maybe. Park rides. Moving plates and FX shots.
Get your head out of the past's ass and look into the future!

[Craig Ryan]

I like where your heads at Benni!

Like others have said, just think of these sensor formats as film negatives....a starting point which can be filtered down to ANY format, or, ideally for some content, shown on a huge screen.

The 9k 645 will probably replace 15perf 70mm quickly, and become the workhorse IMAX camera for some time. This will finally open the doors to indies to shoot their own IMAX stuff. 8k projection with 3D capability couldn't come any sooner. 2011 sounds appropriate!

[Chris Kenny]

Yeah, 28K 3:1 is not for the feature market. It's for the special effects market and, um... landscape photos? You'll probably also see a few artists treating it as a new medium (there's never been a moving image format with anything close to this resolution, as far as I'm aware) and doing some interesting things with it.

It's also, obviously, useful for specialty/scientific imaging. Most of the highest resolution images in the Google Maps "satellite" view are actually aerial photography, for instance. This camera certainly could be quite interesting for that application.

What you're unlikely to see is cinematographers regularly pointing it at actors.

[Daniel García]

I want Red to release a version with an integrated lenticular array on top of the sensor, maybe catching 7x7, 8x8 or 9x9 groups of pixels. Then you have a plenoptic 3-4K motion camera! Then you can change focus / dof/ limited perspective in post, or maybe even do 3D... :w00t:

[Emery Wells]

So these aren't serious comments, right? First, there's about a million things wrong with the comment about 28k being for the "feature market" let alone any market, with maybe the exception of photography. I can understand that completely. There's already a handful of medium format digital cameras capable of resolutions around that size.

I understand that technology is always improving and will continue to do so, but there's a limit to what becomes necessary for filming based on digital resolution verses perceivable resolution. Right now, I'm sure most of you know that the standard resolution for 35mm projection is 2k (if going off of the standard digital file, it's 1.8k). For imax it's estimated between 6k and 8k. It isn't more because people CANNOT perceive anything past that.

Also, the current RED cameras have a lot to answer to in terms of color depth. I'm curious to hear what this camera will have. You can claim the highest resolutions in the world for all I care, but it's still going to look like crap if it doesn't capture the color. I can tell you right now every transfer house will argue against the red when asked about which footage they think visually looks better.

And to that statement about panning and scanning with high resolution - unless it was intentional, which would be a very small niche market for a very select set of shots (i.e. nature documentaries) - that's a lazy parallel to "fix it in post", meaning the director didn't know what he was doing on set, and was relying more on technology then he should of.

Also, RED still doesn't have a stable post workflow for its current line up. Unless it's been fixed in the latest version, you have to sell your soul to get the files correctly into an Avid (because of the 32 bit sound, which is also another useless format). I'm talking about the NLE used by most feature film editors, the one you're claiming this market is for. If their 4k or 2k or whatever K cameras aren't completely compatible with NLE's as of right now, I don't see how a 28k is going to be any better in a year and a half.

Now with all that being said, I'm interested in how technology is being pushed, and what the people at RED are trying to achieve. But it irks me at how people from production to post production think these cameras are the savior for filmmaking. Get the first set of cameras right, then you can worry about better resolution. Post houses aren't going to build a workflow around insanely ridiculous resolutions when everything else (color, compression, viability, etc.) is lacking.

They are very serious comments. How many medium format digital cameras do you know can shoot 25fps? Your comparison of perceived resolution and projection specs is the first question/argument I get asked from producers, directors, and DPs about RED ONE. 'Why do we need to shoot in 4k if this is for broadcast?' My answer 'why shoot 35mm for broadcast? You certainly are not projecting it in everyones home.' To that end, why take still photographs with 10MP cameras when they are destined for an email to all your friends and family? The answer is simple, because taking a photograph with a 10MP camera and scaling it down to 1MP yields a far superior image than taking your photograph with a 1MP camera. It's all about oversampling.

Now obviously gains in resolution reach a limit where they no longer have any profound impact on image quality. We've seen this in the digital stills market with the MP war for years. However, im guessing there will be lots of other benefits to this camera other than more pixels.

And yes the post workflow still needs some ironing out but if you think it doesn't currently work than I invite you to visit our facility where we turn out RED jobs on a daily basis. Two years in the computer industry can be a lifetime and I suspect there will be a very real workflow available for this camera. With a few tweaks to Red Line, I could build one with todays technology for under 100k.

So I ask you, what market do you think *will* use this camera? Obviously it will be of great interest to VFX shops and other specialized large format industries. However, RED is a digital cinema company and I'd venture to say they are building that beast for projection in the cinema. I will also go on record and say we can and will build a post pipeline for that camera to be used in the feature market.

[Emery Wells]

P.S. Many hollywood blockbusters have one giant FX shot after the next. When i said 'features' I was talking more Batman and less Crash.

P.P.S. Wasn't too long ago that 4K sounded crazy.

[Robert Jackson]

The Epic 617 is 28K? Twenty-eight thousand? What?! 261mp?!

Remember that it's supposed to be able to output 28K, 9K, 6K, 5K, 4K, 3K and 2K.

28K may be ideal for shooting plates that VFX guys will be able to use in 3D compositing, but I doubt that (in the near future at least) many people will be shooting 28K for what most of us think of as cinematography.

The effects guys can finally retire their VistaVision cameras, though.

[Mark L. Pederson]

digital signage market = $$$$$$$$

i want this asap.