Dear Jim [Archive] - REDUSER.net

jtcoleman

11-13-2008, 01:11 PM

I am writing this letter here because the other thread has become a flamewar, and I don't want an part of that. I am not trying to throw stones or lay blame, but I do want you to know how I feel.

Long before I received by RED camera, someone started a thread on this forum titled "What do they mean by future proof?"... You can find my reply by searching in the archives if you like; for convenience, I will post it below:

---
I always read it as "we use the same upgrade method of the IBM PC" ... basically, you can swap parts out of a PC and keep using the base forever: getting slow? upgrade the memory. better graphics? upgrade the video card. faster performance? new processor. oops! too many peripherals, buy a new power supply. Don't like this case, think I'll move everything into a slimline model. out of hd space, think I'll add another one. and an adapter for my new printer... and... eventually it's a completely new machine, but I was able to upgrade it part by part over time, so that I never had a day when I woke up and found my entire investment obsolete.
---

As the owner of R1 #396, I was eager disciple of your company and in your vision. Evidently, I was right in my prediction, only... I was a generation premature. Please know that this was not a trivial purchase for me. I had to convince my wife (no small feat) that this camera was a worthwhile investment for my career and my family. Yes, I can hear the sound of the professionals scoffing at me even as I type this. But remember, Red wasn't billed as just a camera for professionals. Red was billed as a game changer, a camera to let the "little guy" take on the big studio productions. I wanted to be a part of that, and I have. I have been a proud, satisfied soldier in your revolution.

Until this morning.

For right or wrong, I feel like this morning's announcement was a reversal of one of your earliest tenets, "rendered obsolesence obsolete." Yes, R1 is still a great, functional camera. Yes, the other cameras are not available yet, so it will continue to be the best camera for the money for a short period of time. Yes, I realize that all technology loses value over time.

But if you read my answer, above, you'll see that I was expected to be a part of this approach from the beginning. Your early marketing materials stated the "modular design" of Red, and with the "obsolence obsolete" tagline, this approach -- that you announced today -- is what I thought I was buying. The first time.

Let's be clear: you are, in fact, obsoleting the R1. My old chevy truck may still run and be in great condition, but that doesn't mean it isn't obsolete. Within a year (or so), your company is moving in a new and decisively better technology direction, and the old stuff is going to be phased out. No, I didn't expect "free upgrades forever". Again, look at my post (and your marketing materials at the time)... I thought that my base investment would be secure. I had an expectation that my camera package would be able to grow with your company, over time, as I could afford it. I don't believe I was way off base in reaching this conclusion.

For what it's worth, the people who will be hurt the most by this will be your early adopters. Some won't care, and that's great for them. I know there are a lot of people here who will argue with me about my feelings on this matter. That's fine, they are entitled to their own opinion about their money. I am talking about my money, and I feel very disappointed. Especially so, since I have spent the last two years acting as your tireless evangelist.

It is very generous of you to offer a plan to turn in our cameras towards an Epic. Unfortunately, I will not be able to take you up on this plan, because I cannot afford it. I was able to come up with that much money once, but not again.

Respectfully, I would like you to give serious consideration to allowing Red One customers to use this credit towards the purchase of a Scarlet S35 or FF35 and accessories. This one, simple change would resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction: your early adopters who cannot afford an Epic would be able to move onto the official "upgrade path" that RED is committed to, and continue to be a happy customers (purchasing upgrades whenever we can afford them) for many years to come.

Thank you for your consideration. To be clear: I am not threatening to sell the camera, or to bad mouth the company or do anything of that sort. In fact, you probably could ignore this message if you so choose, and I will go be unhappy and disappointed in silence.

At the end of the day, I am an adult, I made this purchase, I have made bad purchasing decisions before.

I was just hoping that Red One would not be one of them.

Sincerely,

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396 - Bumblebee

Michele Gavazzeni

11-13-2008, 01:18 PM

I fully respect your point of view

planet e

11-13-2008, 01:19 PM

hear, hear...

You stated that fairly and clearly.

I'll be happy with my RED ONEs in the coming years, but I do think it is true that the program obsoletes it...by obsoleting it, I mean that you won't be selling anymore of these, once the SCARLET is in production. Of course, it won't be obsolete in the sense that it can still be used in very high end productions. But it will be obsolete in the sense that it is hereby eclipsed and, therefore, very shortly, out of production, even though it will still be supported as the legacy technology.

Jason Ing

11-13-2008, 01:21 PM

Respectfully, I would like you to give serious consideration to allowing Red One customers to use this credit towards the purchase of a Scarlet S35 or FF35 and accessories. This one, simple change would resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction: your early adopters who cannot afford an Epic would be able to move onto the official "upgrade path" that RED is committed to, and continue to be a happy customers (purchasing upgrades whenever we can afford them) for many years to come.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396 - Bumblebee

Interesting. A potentially solid "upgrade path" solution.

With Epic, we all knew it would cost more. But I think a primary cause for dissatisfaction is Scarlet's interchangeable lens system and better sensor options makes it too close or better then the Red One. The scarlet/epic system is what the Red One (in spirit) would have been.

Michele Gavazzeni

11-13-2008, 01:23 PM

Jason Ing

11-13-2008, 01:26 PM

For sure Red One cameras aren't going to be vintage cameras anytime soon but for sure the new radical design of the new products don't leave so much space to RED One future evolution.

Now you have a mysterium-X upgrade path but I think that its evolution will end there.

If there is no way to get a Monstro sensor into the Red One...

Brandon Fraley

11-13-2008, 01:29 PM

this is what I thought from the beginning, but I can't imagine they'll do it. It just doesn't make business sense and I understand that. Although neither has many other things RED has done :)

I dunno, I don't see RED saying "come drop off your camera and take home a few of these Scarlets a no charge" (Since you could get the cheaper Scarlet and the FF35 Scarlet and still have money left over from the $17,500 credit)

We'll wait and see. While I'm a tiny bit disgruntled at the moment, I'm sure Jim will come through with something for us in the end :)

John Wee

11-13-2008, 01:32 PM

For sure Red One cameras aren't going to be vintage cameras anytime soon but for sure the radical design of the new products don't leave so much space to RED One future evolution.

Now you have a mysterium-X upgrade path but I think that its evolution will end there.

I can forsee in the future, "Global shutter CMOS Sensor Module Upgrade" or new rolling sensor tech that eliminate rolling shutter issues, that will not be available for the Red One because of the non modular design. Even worst, is when they stop updating the Red One Firmware after Epic and Scarlet and the rest of the camera come into full production.

Michele Gavazzeni

11-13-2008, 01:32 PM

If there is no way to get a Monstro sensor into the Red One...

Look inside the RED One body and figure out if there's enough space for a bigger sensor.
36x24mm (FF sensor size)

M Hsu

11-13-2008, 01:33 PM

well said jt. I completely agree with you. I'd love a trade in path to the scarlet ff35.

I would venture, that with the monstro sensor in the scarlet ff35 and it's low weight, that jim you rename it the EPIC AIR thus including it in the trade in program :)

Jim we know you don't owe us anything and we appreciate the momentous things you've done and we know how generous the epic trade in program is.

EPIC AIR... EPIC LITE... DIET EPIC...

Brice Ansel

11-13-2008, 01:33 PM

Look inside the RED One body and figure out if there's enough space for a bigger sensor.
36x24mm (FF sensor size)

I'm afraid some room is missing for that.

Thom Steinhoff

11-13-2008, 01:36 PM

I agree. Everything you've shown is breathtakingly amazing and beyond exciting. But, after the brochure, what kept me awake all night was the feeling that I brought in to the vision a year too early. The excitement faded, and the "what did I do--I should have waited" took over.

All of the great new modules, from power to remote control depend on the new brain. Without the new brain--all of these cool new tools are useless to us.

The S35 Scarlet is perfect for me and would replace my Red one. Use it for home, shorts and experimenting, and if need be rent an Epic brain--it's all brilliant. This is a dream situation.

Please give me a path where I can trade in toward an S35 scarlet, even with penalty.

I think the games people are proposing of "selling my Red to someone buying an Epic so they can get the discount" are a waste of time and a bit silly. If you know people are already planning these kind of games, why not just give us a path to do it right and do it direct? With those games you're going to get the camera back anyway, potentially with less overall profit--why not let us go direct?

Best Regards,

Thom

planet e

11-13-2008, 01:37 PM

I dunno, I don't see RED saying "come drop off your camera and take home a few of these Scarlets a no charge" (Since you could get the cheaper Scarlet and the FF35 Scarlet and still have money left over from the $17,500 credit)

I don't think that is his request. I think that he is talking about a crossgrade, pure and simple, not for a $17.5 credit. I think that is all any RED ONE owner really wants, is just to keep up...I think many of us would even be willing to pay a few bucks for the crossgrade, just don't want to start over!

Brandon Fraley

11-13-2008, 01:39 PM

I don't think that is his request. I think that he is talking about a crossgrade, pure and simple, not for a $17.5 credit. I think that is all any RED ONE owner really wants, is just to keep up...

Gotcha. Still don't think it makes sense for them, but yes that makes more sense than a 17.5k credit

Ethan Cooper

11-13-2008, 01:41 PM

I don't want to sound like I'm belittling your point of view but we're adults here, we all know, or should know that today's high end technology is always surpassed in short order by the next big thing.

There is absolutely no way to render obsolescence obsolete, none. If I purchase an Epic system next year I'm fully aware that there could be a technology from Red or from someone else who I don't even see on the horizon that could come along and make it worthless in a couple years, that's just how the world works.

Most likely the modular system that Red is using on this round of cameras will be replaced by something bigger and better in 3 to 5 years once either users or the company finds flaws in the design or when some unforeseen new bit of tech comes along that doesn't fit into their current system or when the market shifts in a direction they didn't see coming when they envisioned this design.

I feel for you, but that's just how this industry is. At least you didn't have to drop $100,000 to get into the game.
________
Buy Silver Surfer Vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/silver-surfer)

Michele Gavazzeni

11-13-2008, 01:42 PM

I wonder what RED will do with the trade in RED One cameras... Discounted prices?? why one would buy a RED One after SCARLET start shipping if not for the discounted price?

I don't think they are going to burn them in an epic red beach party!!!

Vincent Thomas

11-13-2008, 01:46 PM

Well said! Exactely my situation, let's stop the noise now...

My opinion is that Red should focus on the most awaited options instead of trying to do everything in the same time. One step after another.. What this race for resolution mean?

Please concentrate all your effort on first making the S35 or FF35 a reality which the professionnal industry could use. It will already be amazing

Thanks to listen to us

v*

planet e

11-13-2008, 01:46 PM

There is absolutely no way to render obsolescence obsolete, none.

That's not what RED said...it's either hype, or it's their truth. And a lot of us ran down that rabbit hole with them.

I think that today's announcement is a blueprint for rendering obsolescence obsolete. I don't believe that it is the last word. I think we are advocating for one more building block to be added. Nothing wrong with that.

Then I could fully say all of my wildest dreams were realized today.

Vigen Vartanov

11-13-2008, 01:47 PM

I thing that they can use parts from trade R1 s and put it in new EPIC :) Why not.

Paul Hazlett

11-13-2008, 01:49 PM

Ed Watkins

11-13-2008, 01:51 PM

Well put Jt.
A calm voice is good to hear.

Michele Gavazzeni

11-13-2008, 01:53 PM

I thing that they can use parts from trade R1 s and put it in new EPIC Why not.

don't think so but in that case EPIC buyers should know that... and should ask to pay EPIC as a partially refurbished camera.

Dj Joofa

11-13-2008, 01:53 PM

I think Red themselves did not realize in the past that a greater modularity will come at the expense of making obsolescence obsolete irrelevant. Red started as an idea, and with such a radical idea, it is always difficult to do full homework. On top of that, it appears to me that the public faces of their team here on RedUser, those whom we see posting mostly, have generally software background. I don't know how much hardware advice (including on-board electronics and sensor level design that are two different things) was given to them at the start of the project by a veteran who has designed hardware by hand before.

Andrae Palmer

11-13-2008, 01:54 PM

Well stated Mr. Coleman. I love what RED released today and I am looking forward to an Epic. I also think that RED should have provided some path to a Scarlet. Otherwise some people will just end up as glorified beta testers.

jtcoleman

11-13-2008, 01:56 PM

There is absolutely no way to render obsolescence obsolete, none. If I purchase an Epic system next year I'm fully aware that there could be a technology from Red or from someone else who I don't even see on the horizon that could come along and make it worthless in a couple years, that's just how the world works.

I respectfully disagree, Ethan. A modular approach, such as the one they announced today, provides your customers a path to keep their package ahead of the curve without ever having to trash it and start over. At the end of the day, that's all I want.

And I have to believe that RED disagrees, too, or else they wouldn't have used this tagline. Jim doesn't strike me as the kind of fellow to use a tagline promising something that he knows to be misleading or impossible to achieve.

I believe in this company. I understand they need to make money, and I want nothing more than to remain a loyal, long-term customer. My plea was simply a way to express my hope that they want the same thing.

JT Coleman
Austin, TX
Red #396

Michele Gavazzeni

11-13-2008, 02:01 PM

I also think that RED should have provided some path to a Scarlet. Otherwise some people will just end up as glorified beta testers.

much you would pay for that?

T. vd Hoff

11-13-2008, 02:10 PM

It may seem this way now but I think you need to breath a little and step for a sec.
As I have said before, I am still using and making money on 10 year old equipment, and my clients are very happy. Red is a tool and you need to use the tools you have to the best of your ability. Your Clients are not going to say"Hey what is this Red One piece of Crap we need to shoot with Scarlet!"

I also think you need to hold judgement on the company till we see exactly how the mysterium upgrade will cost. It jus might be affordable for you.

I had a similar experience with Panasonic. I bought an HDX900 Last December and then
they announce a new Better HD camera at NAB 4 months later for about half the money.
Am I pissed? no, I am doing great with what I have and my clients could not be happier.
There have been only 2 times this year that someone who wants to shoot HD has asked for a specific brand camera. Bottom line is I make the pretty pictures and client is happy.

It might seem wrong to you now but I think you will realize what a great camera you have and it will serve you well for many years.

Hope this helps.

Well put. Your skills come first, your tools second. The tools you have are and will remain of excellent value for a long time.
Secondly, RED won't leave their early adopters out in the cold. Wait till they provide you with solid details when the time comes to upgrade to an actual scarlett or epic.

Finally, I don't consider it fair to want to trade in your R1 for any Epic system. As the specs are now, the Scarlett S35 comes closest to the actual system you have now. With a full refund of the body, that leaves you with 10k of budget to replace obsolete' parts. Your lenses will remain usefull, as will your EVF, LCD and batteries. So you probably will be able to even get some extras for that cash. All in all I'd say this already makes for a very generous upgrade path for R1 owners.

Just realize that the Epic is not the next R1. If you want better specs (even though Scarlett S35 already gives you some) then it would be perfectly reasonable you'd pay the price for it.

Ethan Cooper

11-13-2008, 02:13 PM

I respectfully disagree, Ethan. A modular approach, such as the one they announced today, provides your customers a path to keep their package ahead of the curve without ever having to trash it and start over.

You'll always have to trash your wonderful technology in a few years, modular or not. Those CF modules, they'll be replaced by larger storage options some day. That 1080p evf, it'll bow out to one with more resolution. That 28K Epic brain, it'll give way to a sensor with much higher dynamic range or lower power consumption or something. The entire modular design they're using, it'll have to be overhauled when it's discovered that their connection system doesn't have the proper pin configuration to bring some new technology into the loop, or is prone to failure or whatever comes down the road that renders it useless. All things get old and need replacing. That's my point. You can't stay ahead of the curve and what is true today may not be tomorrow.

I do agree that the R1 owners who can't afford the Epic upgrade should be allowed some type of option, but even when you switch to the modular system don't go around thinking it'll be around in 5 years. Digital technology is disposable. It's not like the old days of film cameras when the only thing that was upgraded was the film stock itself.

That's just how I see it.
________
NEWARK ASSEMBLY (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Newark_Assembly)

MiguelOrtega

11-13-2008, 02:14 PM

With a full refund of the body, that leaves you with 10k of budget to replace obsolete' parts. Your lenses will remain usefull, as will your EVF, LCD and batteries.

thats with the assumption that u can trade in for a scarlett...they never said u can do that. the full refund is for epic ONLY not scarlett

Michele Gavazzeni

11-13-2008, 02:18 PM

You'll always have to trash your wonderful technology in a few years, modular or not.
Yes but being modular means you don't have to trash everything. That aproach makes the product life cycle much much longher.

T. vd Hoff

11-13-2008, 02:19 PM

thats with the assumption that u can trade in for a scarlett...they never said u can do that. the full refund is for epic ONLY not scarlett

*oops* My bad. Well, in that case I'd feel it would be just if RED would allow a scarlett S35 upgrade path with (close to) full refund too.

Jeremy Newmark

11-13-2008, 02:20 PM

thats with the assumption that u can trade in for a scarlett...they never said u can do that. the full refund is for epic ONLY not scarlett

"A RED ONE owner has several choices.

1. A RED ONE owner can keep the RED ONE and upgrade to the Mysterium-X sensor for a TBD price... just as we promised.

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

3. A RED ONE owner can choose to keep their RED ONE and receive a one-time credit of 12% on a Scarlet system purchase."

Taken from post #5 here. http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=320537#post320537

REDneck

11-13-2008, 02:25 PM

Obsolescence is relative. Some people are obviously taking it to mean "anything but the best." What is being offered by Red is ways to improve a camera that essentially was debuted a couple years ago. You can trade it in... you can sell the body and keep the accessories for a different body... you can upgrade the sensor. This is the opposite of the obsolescence-for-profit marketing techniques of the companies Red is up against. Panasonic, Sony, Canon --- they all advance their products at regular intervals with no support for loyalists, requiring you to re-buy to stay current. Not only that, but they release the same products over and over again with minor tweaks instead of innovating because their development is subordinate to their marketing machine.

So, Red comes along and offers ways for loyalists --- current owners who want to stick with Red --- to stay current and what happens? They get slammed (tactfully, granted) for not going all the way. I don't blame Jim if he's pissed off by this response. "Rendering obsolescence obsolete" the way some of you are talking about it means 1) never developing a superior product or 2) refunding any sale at any time forever in case of the owner wanting a different Red product. Either one would kill any company dead.

So, my final analysis: some degree of obsolescence is the price of progress. But if you think about it, Red has your back more than any other camera manufacturer out there. And don't forget --- Red One is the only Red camera you can take out and shoot with today.

Andrae Palmer

11-13-2008, 02:28 PM

T. vd Hoff

11-13-2008, 02:36 PM

Keep your cool Andrae. Everybody has been posting supportive comments.

Brian Timmons

11-13-2008, 02:40 PM

I respect and admire the innovations RED has released over this short period of time. One really gets a feeling that their sense of purpose REALLY IS to change the world.

I have absolutely no problem with that as long as they continue to take care of customers who are not necessarily invested in next "latest, greatest" development.

A key decision for me to invest in the RED ONE was the upgradability of that camera so I would have an investment that survives the long haul. So far RED HAS made it clear that they plan to honor that with the optional sensor upgrades.

My only concern from there is that some of the "modular" internal processing of the camera is also optioned for an upgrade to help realize the full potential of the new imaging chips(higher frame rates; etc).

Brian

REDneck

11-13-2008, 02:43 PM

Do you own a RED One? These Scarlet wannabe users are starting to irritate me. Perhaps we really do need a board for owners.

No, I don't, which is why my opinion is less emotional than yours. I'm sorry you don't like what I'm saying.

planet e

11-13-2008, 02:43 PM

What is being offered by Red is ways to improve a camera that essentially was debuted a couple years ago.

What is irritating me is ill-informed inaccuracies such as this. RED did not debut a couple of years ago. My first one was delivered in March, and I paid for it in advance, to insure the quickest possible delivery. And I was in the original batch of reservation holders, the very first. We are talking about a camera that is 6 months old becoming, as of today, legacy technology. Moore's law to the second power.

I don't even know why people feel compelled to weigh in on what RED ONE owners should not or don't deserve. I am very grateful to this company in many, many ways. I have benefited in ways that those of you who have remained sidelined will not understand until you have a RED camera of your own. I get that, I got that, I'm psyched and grateful about it.

No one is asking for a $17.5 credit, what is under discussion is the possibility of adding a SCARLET crossgrade to an already generous package. And even the possibility of paying a little on top to get it....just wanting not to have to start over, to be able to enter the modular upgrade pathway, without having to purchase a new camera entirely, after such a short time. Or to upgrade to EPIC, which may be more camera than we need.

In essence, we are asking for the opportunity to spend more money with the company we love, because that is what will happen, to buy more modules, to add more parts.

Ben Holmes

11-13-2008, 02:47 PM

I don't mean this to sound trite - it's meant as a helpful suggestion.

Don't RED one owners have an upgrade path to Scarlet? Order a scarlet (which you will get before everyone else) then sell your RED one to someone who wants an Epic (and get one faster as a RED one owner?)

Doesn't that leave everyone happy? Sell the RED One for a few hundred dollars less if you want a quick sale even...

Ben

PS - in the meantime (assumed to be 9 months) have a RED One effectively for free...

Douglas Underdahl

11-13-2008, 02:49 PM

I'm sorta thinking this way:

I buy the $2,500 Scarlet, and pop on some groovy C mount primes and have a fabulously sharp mini camera that I can put in places that the full sized R1 won't go. I get 12% off on this, so it's pretty inexpensive. Car mounts, cranes, head mounted cams, pole cams, my remote head and crane, Steadicam. C mount primes are great and really cheap. I get increased depth of field which will help in some situations, like letting actors move around more without going in and out of focus. Also works as a covert cam for a lot of that type of work. Clamp that sucker to the A pillar in cars - solves a lot of trouble.

The, I get get the sensor upgrade for my R1, which will probably make it function as well as the S35 Scarlet, where I get increased DR and also higher FPS, I will bet. I'm guessing $2,000 for this.

So I spend just over $4k and I now have TWO fabulous HD cameras! Wahoo!

BUT - if I get a lucrative job that warrants it, then I spring another $10,500 and get the S35 Epic. Don't think this is likely.

Don't want any FF35 cams - just too hard to keep folks in focus at T2 or even 2.8/4

Eddie

11-13-2008, 02:49 PM

Jt... i feel you.
about four months ago I was in a situation where I had to decide if I wanted to cancel my reservation or not. which was not an easy choice... I had these cravings for the best and most luxurious technology, but at the same time a stern voice was telling me, "its a computer god damnit! you are mad to buy a computer for your 40 grand savings" and in the end I jumped off the bandwagon.
However I think that you and akube and many others falsely condemns RED for improving their products. As I understood the "obsolescence obsolete" it meant targetting at the quality of filmstocks, and making digital video into "digital cinema" compatible with the best cine-lenses and accesories out there. And in that sense (apart from a DR stop or two) RED has succeeded. Secondly it was aimed at the "fixed lens" hd-cams where you had to buy the whole new package to get the simple improvements you wanted. Thirdly, back then indies main hurdle was the "good enough for hollywood", and here jim not only delivered, but even went out of his way to prove it to everybody, with the likes of soderberg and peter jackson. Essentially doing the persuasion that would have been yours and other redowners task.

The reason I am posting in this whiner-thread however, is that I have a small disappointment to admit. sooooorrrrryyy I know it sounds bizarre, having just been offered the world, but I am gonna say it anyway. Todays anouncements, was not a bomb for the broke-ass indie. Having already been adding around on the gazillion accesories and powerpacks and cheeseplates and so on... i think its fair to say that apart from the fixed lense option (whose price is unknown, and seemingly have some kind of special automation) people are not gonna be ready to shoot for less than 15k... off course I have no idea what the new batteries, plates, soundmodules, evfs and lcd, mini-primes, recording modules and media is gonna add up to... but its gonna be alot more than 3k for 3k....
What I would have considered an absolute BOMB, would be a 1k resolution, s35, 25fps two xlr inputs shooting redcode to cf, with no lego this or that... and NO cables dangling around. but lcd,bateries preamps etc all fitted into a nice ergonomic body available with a nikon or canon mount. 4000$ THAT would be da BOMB!

Now I am gonna have to buy the stinking canon 5d and bitch about h.264 for two years.

Justin O'Neill

11-13-2008, 03:00 PM

I really don't understand the argument that today's announcement makes the RED One obsolete. A lot of us speculated that when RED offered a sensor upgrade for the R1 it would be around $10k. RED never said they would upgrade your R1 for free. With this announcement we get a 5k brain that does 5k @ 100fps instead of just a sensor upgrade for $10k when we trade in our R1s. All of the other RED accessories should be compatible. How is this making your investment obsolete?????

Brandon Fraley

11-13-2008, 03:03 PM

it doesn't make your investment obsolete, if you can afford an Epic.

Jannard

11-13-2008, 03:05 PM

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21946

Jason Ing

11-13-2008, 03:05 PM

Ralph Wong

11-13-2008, 03:10 PM

I have to say, when I first heard about the existence of Epic, I didn't really care. 4k shooting is good enough for me and will be good enough for me for years to come. In fact, the only real complaint I have of my RED camera is that it is so damn heavy. After putting a Nikon lens, LCD, battery and hard drive on it, I have difficulty shooting handheld with the camera for prolonged periods of time. I even considered selling the camera in the future and down grading to the Scarlet at a 2/3 inch chip. Now, I find that the Scarlet will actually outperform the RED One AND be lighter so I should be excited, right? The problem is, the Scarlet will make the RED One cost substantially lower than what I paid for it. The 12% discount doesn't mean much since the RED One will probably lose over half it's value once the Scarlet hits (if I get the Scarlet, I definitely will get rid of my RED One). If the Scarlet did not do as much as the RED One, then I would still be happy I forked over the extra dough for my camera. As it stands, the Scarlet will greatly reduce the price of a RED Camera, and switching to the Scarlet will probably cost RED Owners $5,000 after you figure in lowered resale value. This is guessing that the price of the Scarlet will be about $11,000 for a workable system and the RED One would sell for around $6,000. I already had enough problems scraping together the money to buy RED, to lose $11,500 in value and having to fork over another $5,000 in less than a year just to get a lighter camera is a little hard to take. I bought into the RED system believing that the basic investment in the camera body would be sound. I didn't expect it to get blown out of the water in the time frame of a year. Like a lot of people have said, this announcement is great for people who did not buy recently. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them.

Luca Immesi

11-13-2008, 03:15 PM

The R1 has changed my business life. I'm really happy with my camera.
When I read the new specifics I thought they (red team) were completely mad but after I thought also every innovation has a cost. I truly believe Red won't abandon us R1 owners. I think (and I hope) in a close future it will be the possibility to trade a R1 for a Scarlet, maybe the FF35 one.

Ben Holmes

11-13-2008, 03:19 PM

Jannard

11-13-2008, 03:21 PM

Luca Immesi

11-13-2008, 03:27 PM

I've tried :blush:

Sanjin Jukic

11-13-2008, 03:27 PM

First I'll upgrade RED1 to M-X and then see what is going on with Scarlet and Epic.

Ralph Wong

11-13-2008, 03:28 PM

The "electronic engines" are different between each of these camera models. That means there are format capability differences. For example, the RED ONE has 4K, 3K, 2K, 1080P (soon) and anamorphic format options. It does ramping, time-lapse, has 4 channel 24-bit audio, etc. Scarlet will NOT have the full flexibility of a RED ONE. EPIC has more capability and flexibility than the other two. It is one of the reasons that the Scarlet body is smaller than an EPIC.

Just so you can figure that into your planning.

Scarlet will have limited format options.

RED ONE has many format options.

EPIC has virtually unlimited format options.

The question is will those features specific to the RED One compel most people to continue buying the RED One. If I could sell my camera for 14k-15k in a year, great! I can go over and buy a Scarlet that should have all the options I need (Don't need 4 channels of audio, ramping, etc.) and be lighter. I have a feeling that these extra features will not keep up the price of a RED One, though. I know people say I can just use the RED as a trade in at full value for the Epic, but I don't have the money for the upgrade. The only way I would do that is if someone wanted to buy the Epic and was willing to buy the RED One from me at a slight discount. I have a feeling that hundreds of current RED One owners will have the same idea which will drive down the price of the RED One. I also don't know how many will actually fork out the money to get an Epic. Most of us are happy with 4k and will not spend the extra thousands of dollars to get Epic.

Justin O'Neill

11-13-2008, 03:32 PM

it doesn't make your investment obsolete, if you can afford an Epic.

If you can't afford the $10k to upgrade to an EPIC you probably wouldn't be able to afford the R1 sensor upgrade either. I don't think "making obsolescence obsolete" means free upgrades for eternity.

The main part of a $17,500 RED body is the sensor. I never expected them to offer the sensor upgrade on the R1 for a couple grand. I always expected that the cost of the sensor would be well over half the price of the body.

Andrae Palmer

11-13-2008, 03:35 PM

see my previous answer. Your RED one is not worth a penny less as it's worth $17,500 towards an Epic. If you can't afford one, sell it to someone who can.

Doesn't this make sense to anyone else?

Ben

I've been advising others to do the same. Seems like the easiest solution for R1 users that can't afford an Epic.

Brandon Fraley

11-13-2008, 03:41 PM

I've been advising others to do the same. Seems like the easiest solution for R1 users that can't afford an Epic.

why would they buy a used one from you instead of buying a new one from RED?

Jeremy Neish

11-13-2008, 03:42 PM

JT,

Well spoken JT. I'm in exactly the same position with the same opinion. While the RED One has certainly exceeded my expectations from when I put my money down on so long ago at NAB. And I'm unbearably excited about the new cameras, I agree, I don't think the promise of obsoleting obsolescence was entirely kept, at least not how I interpreted it at the time.

Because I felt I could grow with the camera and stay competitive, I bought my camera on a 3 year lease, and planned to pay that back on the same schedule. Now here I am with 2 years left in my lease, no possible way to upgrade to Epic in my current financial condition and staring down the barrel of very few to no rentals for an 'old' Red one. Scary to say the least.

Andrae Palmer

11-13-2008, 03:42 PM

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Jannard... boy am I glad I've been saving my pennies. Epic FF35 here I come. The only problem is this Winter 2009 estimate.

pango

11-13-2008, 03:45 PM

Jason Ing

11-13-2008, 03:47 PM

why would they buy a used one from you instead of buying a new one from RED?

depending on the serial number... jump ahead in line?

M Hsu

11-13-2008, 03:48 PM

It's very weird to realize that Jim himself is reading these posts and responding. Hi Jim!!! Thanks for all your hard work.

My wife is going to freak out when I tell her I am upgrading to an epic 35FF. Thanks for ruining my marriage. She's probably going to wish I was back in my ducati phase, that was a cheaper hobby. Anytime you want to ride my ducati monstro, you let me know jim.

Jannard

11-13-2008, 03:50 PM

JT,

Well spoken JT. I'm in exactly the same position with the same opinion. While the RED One has certainly exceeded my expectations from when I put my money down on so long ago at NAB. And I'm unbearably excited about the new cameras, I agree, I don't think the promise of obsoleting obsolescence was kept. Because I felt I could grow with the camera and stay competitive, I bought my camera on a 3 year lease, and planned to pay that back on the same schedule. Now here I am with 2 years left in my lease, no possible way to upgrade to Epic and staring down the barrel of very few to no rentals for an 'old' Red one. Scary to say the least.

Sorry... doesn't make any sense. If we only had a RED ONE upgrade to offer, and you couldn't afford it, would your un-upgraded RED ONE be obsolete?

A Scarlet will not be as useful as a RED ONE.

Jim

Luca Immesi

11-13-2008, 03:52 PM

Nick Wolf

11-13-2008, 03:55 PM

JJ...

Have you begun meditating or yoga or something? I cannot believe the level of grace with which you address the unfounded wave of panic...Nerves of steel.

DogDay.

Kholi Hicks

11-13-2008, 03:59 PM

Jeremy Neish

11-13-2008, 04:03 PM

Sorry... doesn't make any sense. If we only had a RED ONE upgrade to offer, and you couldn't afford it, would your un-upgraded RED ONE be obsolete?

A Scarlet will not be as useful as a RED ONE.

Jim

Hi Jim, thank you for your reply. I hadn't read your comment about the format advantages of Red 1 over Scarlet before I posted. That is something I hadn't realized. The more I think about it the more I realize that either a Red One upgrade or Epic S35 will be my best way to deal with the this new Red future.

Thanks to your clarification, I now recognize that Scarlet S35 is 'NOT' the new R1. I feel a bit better now, and assuming you are still planning to allow upgrades in the original order, I will have the advantage of getting one of the first Epics... Anyway, I didn't mean to put a damper on today's announcements, I'm excited beyond words. Now I just need to make the numbers work.

Jannard

11-13-2008, 04:06 PM

Okay, so propogating the idea that you'll be able to get an S35 Sized Scarlet and shoot 4k and 3k as well isn't accurate?

I am not going to answer a thousand "does it do this or that" now. When we are ready to release full specs, we will. There is plenty of time before you have to make a decision. In the meantime, Scarlet has limited options, RED ONE has many options, EPIC has many more options.

Jim

Jannard

11-13-2008, 04:07 PM

Hi Jim, thank you for your reply. I hadn't read your comment about the format advantages of Red 1 over Scarlet before I posted. That is something I hadn't realized. The more I think about it the more I realize that either a Red One upgrade or Epic S35 will be my best way to deal with the this new Red future.

Thanks to your clarification, I now recognize that Scarlet S35 is 'NOT' the new R1. I feel a bit better now, and assuming you are still planning to allow upgrades in the original order, I will have the advantage of getting one of the first Epics... Anyway, I didn't mean to put a damper on today's announcements, I'm excited beyond words. Now I just need to make the numbers work.

No problem... we should have been more clear last night. We value you as a customer and will accommodate you the best we can.

Jim

Kholi Hicks

11-13-2008, 04:14 PM

I am not going to answer a thousand "does it do this or that" now. When we are ready to release full specs, we will. There is plenty of time before you have to make a decision. In the meantime, Scarlet has limited options, RED ONE has many options, EPIC has many more options.

Jim

With all due respect, isn't that just a basic question that isn't made clear in your promo? There are several people thinking you're limited to 5k @ 30P and if you want to get 3K @ 120FPS you need to get a 2/3" body?

I guess it's tough to clear up such basic confusion...

Johan Pabon

11-13-2008, 04:45 PM

The situation now reminds me of the moment that Epic and Scarlet were announced in the first place. Everybody got confused. Jim specifically asked people to quiet down, he had a nice term for that, and I felt he was right.
I've been thinking of the new opportunities now... and I must say there are two sides. There is a generous offer to upgrade to Epic, on the other hand we have to be carefull with our money. You warned us to be carefull Jim, and I fully agree on that.
As a productioncompany I feel I should invest in the best equipment I can. On the other hand be carefull, have your own company and make sure it does not belong to the bank...
Be sure of your own freedom and keep enough financial space to be creative.
Now I feel there is a need to upgrade. To be perfectly honest, I don't know if it's wise to do that. Apart from that epic and scarlet are huge improvements.

Kevin Wild

11-13-2008, 05:06 PM

Gosh, I know people on these boards want the latest and greatest, but keep in mind that you have already purchased a camera capable of making motion pictures...

Personally, I feel that RED is putting too much importance on resolution. How many people here seriously need more than 4K?? We have yet to finish a project in 4K yet...everything down to HD and then most down to SD, but that's us.

So, I am excited about the future products, but it's not because RED is going to someday make a sensor the size of a truck and that every frame will take a GIG to store...nope. I'm quite happy with 4K. I am excited about the improvements in weight, size, audio connectors...real functional things. Obviously, picture quality/dynamic range matters...but the RED One is already excellent. We will upgrade to the 5K Epic so we can get the Version 2 of the camera, but knowing full well that the picture on the RED One is absolutely more than adequate now.

Again, it's easy to overreact on days of new announcements like this. But keep in mind that 2 days ago everyone was bragging that you had a camera in which 30 Hollywood films were using...and Peter Jackson...and Steven S...and la, la, la. :-)

And I will continue to end nearly every posting with...I just hope RED puts as much energy into the POST PRODUCTION solutions as they do the camera, because the camera is only HALF of this game... RED Cine, RED Alert, RED Rushes...all have bugs or serious limitations that need to be worked out, hopefully soon.

My $.02.

Johan Pabon

11-13-2008, 05:15 PM

My $.02. Awfull term, but you're right. I don't worry about 4K or 5 or....It's some other things like choice of lenses and maybe a better noise reduction with the new sensor.
And of course: Postproduction! We need better solutions for post.

Ben Holmes

11-13-2008, 05:25 PM

why would they buy a used one from you instead of buying a new one from RED?

Because RED ONE owners get first in the (probably very long) queue for an Epic. Try to keep up at the back....

Ben

jtcoleman

11-13-2008, 06:23 PM

Sorry... doesn't make any sense. If we only had a RED ONE upgrade to offer, and you couldn't afford it, would your un-upgraded RED ONE be obsolete?

A Scarlet will not be as useful as a RED ONE.

Jim

Jim, thank you for your comments.

To answer your question, no, the above scenario wouldn't obsolete the camera, but unfortunately it's isn't an accurate comparison to the actual situation. If the new upgraded version were available to new customers for less money, then yes, it would obsolete my purchase.

It's not the formats that I'm really concerned with. Unless the Scarlet is limited to 2k, which it appears not to be.

What really concerns me, what I feel is lacking in the R1, is the modularity. You guys have based your future line of products on a snappable hardware design that allows for easy, low cost upgrading over time. It's great, and I am disappointed that I cannot be a part of that without either 1. selling my camera at a sizeable loss, or 2. doubling the amount of my investment. Neither of those are good options for me, so I am left with the feeling that maybe I should have waited before making my purchase. I believe that many of your customers probably feel the same way.

Anyway, I have made my case as well as I can. If you do not believe my request is reasonable, then I guess I will live with that.

Thank you for your consideration.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396

Tico Llaurador

11-13-2008, 06:27 PM

I don't think the RED One will stop producing the same pretty pictures (if not better) than it did when you fist purchased it.

So... what are you really complaining about?

:glare:

conrad gaunt

11-13-2008, 07:16 PM

I fully respect your point of view

Me too.

I don't think the RED One will stop producing the same pretty pictures (if not better) than it did when you fist purchased it.

So... what are you really complaining about?

:glare:

No brain upgrade=no upgrade.
Build16, too often (scroll to right):

edit: ok, I probably have a hardware fault, hence bad images. If they go, that'll be better. Still shame about processor NOUPGRADES

Buck Forester

11-13-2008, 07:19 PM

I have no skin in the game yet (will strongly consider Scarlet when the time comes), but I'm under the assumption that people buying the original RED ONE are not hobbyists, unless they have lots of moolah to burn. It seems to be a professional working camera where hopefully one can create footage/flicks for money.

Just know, you R1 owners, that you currently own cameras that guys like myself drool over, and that hasn't changed. The same dreams you had when you bought the camera are still there, the camera isn't old or obsolete by any stretch of the imagination. We all know we can't look at the equipment itself as an appreciating asset or even an asset that will hold it's value... technological gear itself is a lousy freaking investment... it's what you can do with it that is the 'real' investment in this stuff.

What you can do with the RED ONE hasn't changed since last year or the year before, even without the upgrades. I couldn't afford a RED ONE so I bought a Sony EX1. I know in a year or two it's value will probably be halved, or more. And it's not upgradeable. But the footage it creates is still amazing to me. The RED ONE is still the king for the price/specs, and upgradeable like few cameras are. I know how it is, it's easy to let new technological announcements seem like you now have less, but it's all perception. Perception is merely a state of mind and it can cloud your enthusiasm.

As it was said earlier, when/if I get my Scarlet next year, I'm pretty sure in a couple years there will be some sort of jump in technology that will alter things to the point a new base module will have to be built, not making the Scarlet obsolete, but putting it on a upgradeable path that is different than the next generation model. That's just the nature of the beast and is out of the control of companies. I mean, really, how many years do you think even a modular system created in 2009 can last in such a quickly technologically advancing world? As long as RED doesn't abandon previous generations, which I don't think they would do, things will always change. Okay, go ahead and start throwing the tomatoes, I'm ready. :)

SalaTar

11-13-2008, 07:19 PM

that is a POS shot for sure

SalaTar

11-13-2008, 07:20 PM

that is a POS shot for sure splitscreen decomp issues and all

Sean

11-13-2008, 09:42 PM

Maybe some of the discomfort experienced today by Red One owners stems from (a) owning a camera that only came out of official beta fairly recently--and many argue is still in beta; and (b) it sounds like the only way to achieve the results that we are still striving for--because no one will admit we're there yet--is to upgrade to a much more expensive camera.

I think it "feels" like Red One is abandoned, but yet we still have to get our audio board swapped out for one that allows us to use a professional mic with phantom power. And we're still struggling with workflows--no audio on PC yet. It "feels" so early in the game to be focusing so much marketing energy on the next great camera. Of course, in every company's secret lab they're working on the next invention to change the world. But it's hard to hear about it when you're still struggling to get the first locomotive running.

Jim says he isn't abandoning Red. I'm sure it's near and dear to his heart. And indeed, there may be incredibly persuasive reasons to really abandon it. But it feels like that. Maybe it's just optics--isn't it always just optics. And timing. Definitely timing.

Ariana

11-13-2008, 09:51 PM

Exactly. That's what this thread is about. No matter how you slice it, twist it, or spin it, Red has betrayed its mantra and as far as I'm concerned driven a steel spike through their credibility. Frankly I don't trust them any more.

Oh bullshit. 100% credit is betrayal? Your are an insult to the customers that actually paid for cameras and appreciate what Jim is offering. Jim did not promise free upgrade for the rest of your life or even at cost upgrades, yet he's taking back the camera you beat the crap out of for two years, and giveing you an awesome deal to step up to one 3x as powerful for half the cost of your original purchase.

I think another poster said it very nicely:

Pretend for a moment that Scarlet and Epic don't exist..

This is the way I see it: when you buy a Red One, you know what it can do, and what it is used for. You buy that camera for a specific purpose. You are promised that it will be upgradable. You receive free firmware updates that drastically improve the performance of your camera. New sensors are developed, and you are given the option of upgrading your sensor for a fee...

The fact that your camera is upgradable and the fact that it is still tirelessly updated, improved, and supported completely and totally fulfills Jim's promise.

Now Scarlet and Epic have entered the picture. Has anything about Jim's promise to you changed? YES.

Not only are you able to upgrade both hardware and firmware, you ALSO get a discount on the new products. You are ALSO first in line everytime for anything.

And if you want out: You can take every penny you put into your Red One into something better (EPIC).

You are right. Jim did not keep his promise: he changed it and made it better.

I can understand drooling over the new toys, but guess what? You have a camera NOW. You can take your camera, and make wonderful things with it, while the rest of us not only wait for the other cameras to come to fruition, we will also be waiting in line after YOU.

If I had had the money at the time, you had better believe I would have been an early adopter. That is the only time I have ever seen being an early adopter pays off. You guys are treated like royalty.

I am not trying to be preachy, I just want to give my perspective. Be happy! It is a wonderful time to be a filmmaker! :}

pango

11-14-2008, 12:32 AM

By proper experience (in software design) I know that modularity is a lure. The truth is that complex design without modularity is impossible and ALL cameras out there use a modular design. But that is in order to deal with complexity in the first place. As for sustainability, the modular structure has to mature first. From what I gather, Red ONE is a very nice and usable, yet beta product. To promise for a beta product that its modular structure makes "obsolescence obsolete" was an unkeepable promise and that is what disappoints some people.

By the way, what is the point in zillions of configurations for a manufacturer that has sold some 4000 cameras? Correct me if I am wrong, but I guess that most RED One owners use a similar core setup at least and I seriously wonder if those who have a different setup would have minded a standard bundle.

If you read through the forums, the really nice feature of the new design is the fact that you can put more or less any kind of optics in front of the sensors which was not really the case for RED One. THAT is the modularity which really matters (and what I really like about photography in general).

A. Bastaki

11-14-2008, 01:06 AM

I fully support your post jtcoleman... and your words are exactly what I have in mind. I have read every post after yours and none come as clear and as sane as yours. I beleive many have expressed similarly.

And worry not, there are many who feel the same way. We are all on the same boat.. we aren't 1 or 2... we are in hundreds who feel the same way you feel. We together hope that the issue at hand will be resolved. If not, like you said... we will be quietly dissatisfied.

Michael Lindsay

11-14-2008, 01:38 AM

...I am disappointed that I cannot be a part of that without either 1. selling my camera at a sizeable loss, or 2. doubling the amount of my investment....

Red #396

With Red 396 I am sure (as Epics just start to come out) you can sell for not much of a loss...

I can hook you up with people that want Epics ASAP

Ben Holmes

11-14-2008, 02:08 AM

Jim, thank you for your comments.

To answer your question, no, the above scenario wouldn't obsolete the camera, but unfortunately it's isn't an accurate comparison to the actual situation. If the new upgraded version were available to new customers for less money, then yes, it would obsolete my purchase.

It's not the formats that I'm really concerned with. Unless the Scarlet is limited to 2k, which it appears not to be.

What really concerns me, what I feel is lacking in the R1, is the modularity. You guys have based your future line of products on a snappable hardware design that allows for easy, low cost upgrading over time. It's great, and I am disappointed that I cannot be a part of that without either 1. selling my camera at a sizeable loss, or 2. doubling the amount of my investment. Neither of those are good options for me, so I am left with the feeling that maybe I should have waited before making my purchase. I believe that many of your customers probably feel the same way.

Anyway, I have made my case as well as I can. If you do not believe my request is reasonable, then I guess I will live with that.

Thank you for your consideration.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396

JT - doesn't what I suggested totally negate this problem? As a RED One owner, you are in a unique and advantageous position. You either get an upgraded RED ONE at no cost (which will be more flexible format-wise than a Scarlet) or you sell it to an would-be Epic owner (possibly at a profit if there's a long queue) and get your own Scarlet before anyone else.

I really don't see where the problem is. I'm starting to wonder if some people (not you, obviously) are trolling about this problem...

Ben

Shawn Booth

11-14-2008, 03:15 AM

... in my current financial condition and staring down the barrel of very few to no rentals for an 'old' Red one...

"old" is misused.... I can not see a time when the R1 would become obsolete or in less demand. In fact, demand is growing...

If your R1 isn't renting, chances stand that your Epic won't either.

Like everyone, I'm blown away/excited/eager to spend more cash. But it's too early to make decisions. Even if we could pay/receive now... Too many options, not enough info to make an informed decision of what to purchase and in what quantity.

Would love a Scarlet (which one??) to treat more like a still camera (with options)... certain aspects to the Epic would be great and the new accessories - do they work with the R1?

EPIC 617 - yes please....

Andrae Palmer

11-14-2008, 05:51 AM

Jay A. Kelley

11-14-2008, 06:09 AM

for my

Respectfully, I would like you to give serious consideration to allowing Red One customers to use this credit towards the purchase of a Scarlet S35 or FF35 and accessories. This one, simple change would resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction: your early adopters who cannot afford an Epic would be able to move onto the official "upgrade path" that RED is committed to, and continue to be a happy customers (purchasing upgrades whenever we can afford them) for many years to come.

Red #396 - Bumblebee

I really respect your point of view.. But as far as allowing people to upgrade to the FF35 Please see below:

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

So I think that part of your request has already been dealt with

Jay

Andrae Palmer

11-14-2008, 06:13 AM

I really respect your point of view.. But as far as allowing people to upgrade to the FF35 Please see below:

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

So I think that part of your request has already been dealt with

Jay

Hey Jay he's talking about the Scarlet line. Now that I think more of it... you guys looking to get a Scarlet should sell your RED Ones.. whats the issue? If you are looking at a no loss path... it doesn't exist. Even with a full value trade-in you would still take a hit on the cost of accessories you had purchased for the R1. This is not socialism here... the way I look at it RED is just a company like everyone else... cool damn company though... but they are not a socialist organization. They did foster a socialist environment for a while and heck it was cool... still is cool... but obsolescene obsolete is a bunch of crap... because the R1 has just been rendered obsolete (literally). Even the new modular stuff will be obsolete soon enough.

Soon nano particles will connect to the human optical system and people can go around making movies with their bodies... damn stabilization will be cool as hell. The Dynamic Range will be out of this world. I think we are hitting on Singularity.

David Wyatt

11-14-2008, 06:22 AM

Personally I always assumed the future-proof aspect to be that the Red One was a 4K camera (OK 3.2K really) and that in that sense it was future proofed since HD broadcast was lower than that and even most digital projection was beneath that. So until digital projection went higher than 4K (unlikely for a long time due to the expense of outfitting every screen in every cinema in the world) you had a nice little affordable future-proof camera.

There's obviously limitations in this...it's not future-proofed for ever, that would be ludicrous (and impossible), and "Obsolescence rendered obsolete" is similarly marketing speak and not absolute - but it does reflect an intention on Red's behalf to try and look after their customers in a way Sony or Panasonic wouldn't give a hoot about. Back when Red were at the original drawing board of the Red One when they were decried as makers of Vaporware I think it would've been unlikely for them to have stumbled on this fantastic, game-changing idea of modularity and upgradeability (realistically for your first product that would've been impossible). Now that they have though I think this really is a base for the true rendering obsolescence obsolete (for a few years at least), allowing you just to swap out or upgrade brains.

I loved the idea someone elsewhere had of buying a Scarlet FF35 (a steal at $12,000) for themselves and simply renting out an Epic FF35 brain for the odd high-end project (that is if all the accessories are transferable?).

I do feel sorry for Red One owners that feel let down and simply can't afford to upgrade but I would beg, borrow or steal to do this if I were them when the time comes. Failing that they still have a camera that is more than capable of shooting a Hollywood movie (see "Knowing" etc). In some ways Scarlet is an inferior camera compared to Red One (e.g. frame rates), in other ways it's better (Redcode 42, cheaper etc) but realistically it's a long way off (remember how Red One's delivery dates continually slipped?). Red One owners can go out tomorrow and shoot Hollywood-quality footage (just need to learn how to do the Hollywood quality lighting :wink:)

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-14-2008, 06:30 AM

Cal Brunker

11-14-2008, 06:34 AM

Forgive me if this has been covered, I can't possibly get through the 200+ pages of posts since yesterday.

What I'm really looking for is an EPIC S35 upgrade from my R1 with Monstros Dynamic Range, instead of Mysterium X. Is there a tech reason that the smaller s35 sensor couldn't deliver this/ be made from the same stuff? For us R1 PL mount users, this is the perfect upgrade path! I feel like buying the FF35 is a waste as it crops all of my good glass, including my RED PL mount PRIMES when they get here.

Keep on truckin' Jim. My R1 rules planet earth.

Cal

Andrae Palmer

11-14-2008, 06:36 AM

I think the whole problem comes from the s35MM and FF35MM Scarlet models.

Their price point and similarity with the REDOne makes them a threat to REDOne owners [who don't want to upgrade to EPIC].

And the possible limitations of frame sizes\fps\ramping makes these models a dubious choice for us low-end potential customers.

*

Just meditating amidst the storm.

Threat ain't the word... more like a smaller cheaper bully that manages to steal your lunch. Quite embarrassing for a bigger guy. At least they can consolate themselves by repeating in their heads that they were the first and special.

Ronald Reddick

11-14-2008, 07:04 AM

Go Jim
My R1 ships next week, am I disappointed, hell no! Happy to have the beast, better then any thing else on the market, great price point. I do not understand all of the issues, do all of the people complaining raise issues when Apple announces the next new Mac Book Pro, etc that will COST them money. Epic is a full credit upgrade, how can I lose, I get what I need now, go earn money, and in a year if I see a need I upgrade, if not, I do not, but either way I still have a kick ass camera that produces stunning images.

My fear is I cannot live up to the camera and shoot images worthy of the equipment.

Ron

Andrae Palmer

11-14-2008, 07:09 AM

My fear is I cannot live up to the camera and shoot images worthy of the equipment.

Ron

That's a good fear... lets hope you make money to afford a decent Epic. It seems many people before you have not.

planet e

11-14-2008, 07:22 AM

You guys have based your future line of products on a snappable hardware design that allows for easy, low cost upgrading over time. It's great, and I am disappointed that I cannot be a part of that without either 1. selling my camera at a sizeable loss, or 2. doubling the amount of my investment. Neither of those are good options for me, so I am left with the feeling that maybe I should have waited before making my purchase. I believe that many of your customers probably feel the same way.

Anyway, I have made my case as well as I can. If you do not believe my request is reasonable, then I guess I will live with that.

I second this sentiment. This issue has nothing to do with RED ONE's performance, which every RED ONE owner agrees is fantastic, the stuff of dreams.

The future of RED is modularity, and an affordable pathway to modularity is not an unreasonable request. After spending $60K+ over the past six months on REDs and accessories, I don't feel like this is over-reaching.

I think we all want the chance to be able to participate in RED's future, without spending half again--or more--what we have already spent in an extremely short window of time.

Jannard

11-14-2008, 07:57 AM

I second this sentiment. This issue has nothing to do with RED ONE's performance, which every RED ONE owner agrees is fantastic, the stuff of dreams.

The future of RED is modularity, and an affordable pathway to modularity is not an unreasonable request. After spending $60K+ over the past six months on REDs and accessories, I don't feel like this is over-reaching.

I think we all want the chance to be able to participate in RED's future, without spending half again--or more--what we have already spent in an extremely short window of time.

All RED ONE accessories (except top mounts) work with Scarlet and EPIC.

Jim

David Mutchler

11-14-2008, 08:20 AM

All RED ONE accessories (except top mounts) work with Scarlet and EPIC.

Jim

What happens to all the CF modules when we trade in our R1's for Epic's, do we keep them since we paid $500.00?

fde101

11-14-2008, 08:20 AM

All RED ONE accessories (except top mounts) work with Scarlet and EPIC.

Lens mounts too?

Just curious...

Jannard

11-14-2008, 08:49 AM

Lens mounts too?

Just curious...

What do you think would be fair (for both sides)?

Jim

Brice Ansel

11-14-2008, 08:54 AM

JT, do you feel better today?
Best regards
Brice

planet e

11-14-2008, 09:15 AM

What do you think would be fair (for both sides)?

Jim

I'd definitely be willing to pay for an interchangeable mount upgrade, if it is a possibility. Just as I would have paid for a Birger, if their customer service was up to snuff. I don't think this should go in the realm of a free upgrade. But acess to it would be amazing. I hope you can do this for the RED ONEs. That would be great news, the more RED ONE can participate in as many modular upgrades as possible, the better. Just as I will happily pay for a sensor upgrade. I don't think we should never have to pay for anything again -- and I think people interpreting these discussions that way are completely missing the point.

I can only speak for myself and am willing to pay for upgrades, but the $10K to get onboard the modularity train, 6 months after a $60K investment...just a little hard to swallow. But any ways in which you are willing to make RED ONE look and act like SCARLET/EPIC are welcome.

Mark Pugh

11-14-2008, 09:27 AM

All RED ONE accessories (except top mounts) work with Scarlet and EPIC.

Jim

Red Drives?

lubomir.zvolensky

11-14-2008, 09:45 AM

gentlemen, what about this:

a) you invested $60K in last 6 months in R1 and accessories. You have much better camera than you would have even if you invested $200K in Sony. Right? You have much more future, upgradability, possibilities, modularity and hey let's not forget FULL REFUND for your used/abused camera as trade-in value for completely fresh new EPIC. Isn't that alone enough?!?!?!?!?!??!

b) JT, you invested in your R1 and now you feel bashed, trashed and abandoned by RED. You put a lof of money to this business, you have a bank on your back. I fully understand, but... you could have probably TWO YEARS advantage before Epic materializes and is available. If you bought R1 say 12 months ago, you should ALREADY have it paid three times on your projects or rentals. Sorry to sound harsh, but you won't buy Ferrari for $150K and expect it to rent and/or "somehow" pay back alone. You have to have serious reason and dare to say business case for your investments. I have seen post of one member yesterday saying that his R1 bought four months ago is fully paid or almost fully paid now. Hmmmmmm that seems to be business case! He has ~ $30K back, he has fully working camera and accessories easily WORTH the same money, he has a dozen of options to upgrade/keep value/resell and downgrade to Scarlet. Not to mention that EPIC might have longer waiting queues that R1 had which will drive its price thru the roof... like we have seen with R1s, did we?

c) yes, we have heard a member here talking about fantastic upgrade possibilities of new cameras [reminder: NON-EXISTENT PRODUCTS at this time] and his month-ago-bought R1 which is locked and not upgradable the same way. Oh yes, products improve in many ways. Once again, you have perfect camera which should be able to pay itself back without troubles. You can't tell Canon "hey dammit, your Canon MV20 is not upgradable to HF21", can you? When you bought R1, you had clear situation and technical configuration of R1. Nothing of that changed. Now we got ABSOLUTE MEGABOMB with recent announcement and suddenly EVERYBODY sees their gear as OBSOLETE and ANCIENT. Oh yes! You have NEVER DREAMED of anything like that on Nov,12 and now... everything you have is archaic.

This is what makes obsolescence obsolete !! This is what RED brought to market as first manufacturer and this will be the main component of absolute success of this company !!

guys, sorry but all of these options sound JUST fantastic and never-heard-before. Sorry, will JVC/Sony/Pana honor your recent purchases IN ANY WAY and get you even stupid $99 discount on new warez? No, they will not. Did they ever? no, they did not. So... is RED better or not?

... so what are you moaning about at all? Take it this way, harsh, cruel but... this is life! How much value you lost on your home purchased 5 years ago? How much value you lost on your car purchased 5 years ago? Aha... Who will honor anything for you? Nobody.

gimme a second... RED will.

fde101

11-14-2008, 09:54 AM

What do you think would be fair (for both sides)?

I was actually thinking more along the lines of, would they fit?

My guess is that it would be easier to fit them to the S35, maybe the FF35 models, but that some sort of adaptor unit might be needed?

You've been more than "fair" already, and I don't have a R1 so this doesn't impact me... I'm just curious from a technical standpoint on whether or not it would actually work across the different body/brain designs...

planet e

11-14-2008, 10:13 AM

THIS IS WHAT MAKES OBSOLESCENCE OBSOLETE !! THIS IS WHAT RED BROUGHT TO MARKET AS FIRST MANUFACTURER AND THIS WILL BE THE MAIN COMPONENT OF ABSOLUTE SUCCESS OF THIS COMPANY !!

... so what are you moaning about at all?

Nobody's moaning, Lubomir...but you are certainly shouting. This is a reasonable discussion with a company that we know does its level best to listen. That is all.

jtcoleman

11-14-2008, 10:16 AM

JT - doesn't what I suggested totally negate this problem? As a RED One owner, you are in a unique and advantageous position. You either get an upgraded RED ONE at no cost (which will be more flexible format-wise than a Scarlet) or you sell it to an would-be Epic owner (possibly at a profit if there's a long queue) and get your own Scarlet before anyone else.

I really don't see where the problem is. I'm starting to wonder if some people (not you, obviously) are trolling about this problem...

Ben

Hi Ben. Ha, no, I am not trolling, I promise.

Your point is valid, but only if we allow for a big assumption: that the demand for immediate purchase of Epics (i.e. people not willing to wait) will be so high that I can sell my camera to someone else at a reasonable loss.

If you look beneath the covers of that suggestion, it seems to indicate that the key value lies not in my camera, but in my place in line. (That's a frightening thought!)

So what if your assumption is wrong?

What if...

- a bunch of people try what you are suggesting and we overflow demand with a flood of used R1s? or,
- the market for Epics ends up smaller than the market for R1s (as is often the case, higher cost products = smaller markets)? or,
- with a generation of cameras now behind them, RED can scale up the production of Epics quickly enough to meet demand?

If any of these are true, then my place in line has little value. And my R1 is stuck in between the two markets: pros will still want Epics, and prosumers will go for Scarlets. The resell and rental market for R1s would bottom out.

Where would that leave me? With a great camera, true. But I didn't just buy a great camera: i bought a modular, upgradable camera system that I assumed I could grow with, at least for a few years. And that upgrade path *is* available. But unless I can sell my R1 to a third party, I won't be able to enjoy it.

(By the way, what you are offering is banking on a third party transaction in which RED isn't even involved. One might as easily say, "JT, go make more money, and then you won't care about the lost value in your R1." That's true, but it's also a bit tangential to my point.)

This is a big purchase, and I don't think it's inappropriate for me to raise my hand and say "guys, I'm a bit disgruntled. Would you consider doing XYZ to make it right?" A lot of the responses here are coming from people who aren't in my position. Besides the obvious question ("Umm, why do you care if RED offers customers like me an upgrade path?"), I have remind myself that most of the posters are not in my shoes. I certainly wouldn't care as much if I wasn't the one staring down the $25,000 barrel. and for those who *are* in my shoes, and don't care, wow... I envy them. If I could afford an Epic, I probably wouldn't care, either.

What I'm hoping is that RED would realize the value of their early adopters, and allow us a mechanism to convert over to the new upgrade path without having to come up with another large outlay of cash. Allowing us to credit our camera towards the upper end Scarlet models would do it. I promise you, I would still end up spending more money to jump over. Yea, in the short term, it may not be as profitable. In the long term, though, you are keeping your early adopters satisfied, and reinforcing your base of consumer evangelists. Don't underestimate the value of that! It's not just the right thing to do, it's also good business.

I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from, Ben. Sorry for the long winded reply, and thanks to everyone for keeping this thread reasonably civil. it's refreshing. :)

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
RED #396

ps. btw, I am open to ideas on this. It doesn't have to be a 100% credit --- I recognize that my camera is used, and should have a reasonable amount of depreciated for the months that I have owned it. And I don't mind paying more money over time to keep abreast of technology. I certainly don't expect my camera to retain all of it's value; I just don't want to see the bottom fall out of my investment.

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-14-2008, 10:19 AM

One thing that I'm noticing is that,.. if you think about it:

Epic actually is the upgrade for a REDOne... It's a 10k $ difference [with the full trade-in and the lowest Epic].

Even if fundamental upgrades were to be offered for the *old* REDOne body, I don't think the price would be much different.

MysteriumX + 5K@100fps + higher\better compression and what not... these things are not cheap. R&D, better boards and stuff...

So, if I was a REDOne owner, I wouldn`t be bothered by the upgrade path to Epic. The full trade-in is unprecedented practice, the price seems right and Epic actually is the upgrade. I think that the *render obsolescence obsolete* promise is kept here.

And also, I don't see Epics really shipping before the end of 2009.

*
But OTOH, if I was a REDOne owner, I would be a little worried about the S35mm and FF35mm Scarlets.

Especially the S35mm Scarlet, expected to ship earliest.

What if I was a REDOne owner and I don't want to upgrade or what if I simply can't.

Limited or not, the S35MM Scarlet is an improved REDOne body for 7k $.

*
And being a potential low-end customer, I'm yet to be convinced that these limitations are "real".

We gotta see that full chart that they're preparing and I think this should happen real soon, as people are worried.

These upper Scarlet models seem to be confusing everybody, high and low.

It can't wait for the 13th of January, IMHO.

lubomir.zvolensky

11-14-2008, 10:22 AM

oh let me apologize for that, I didn't mean to shout at all. I will edit my capitals immediately.

Just wanted to put small accent :) my fuzzy feeling that some individuals are not satisfied with current situation got me to this. This is understandable because we are speaking about lots of money here and in current global situation everybody has to be very very careful - but still, we have several unprecedented "gimmicks" here. I also wanted to see $3K 3K Scarlet at first, maybe it will be $4K in the final, maybe less...

anyway, thank you RED! You show you care about your customers. And that's very important.

Zakaree Sandberg

11-14-2008, 10:26 AM

How much value you lost on your home purchased 5 years ago? How much value you lost on your car purchased 5 years ago? Aha... Who will honor anything for you? Nobody.

gimme a second... RED WILL.

The camera is not a home.. its a purchase most of us made and is not even out of warranty.. yet already out of date.

btw.. RED is is gracious and have done alot to bring us a camera of this caliber.
its just hard for me to swallow all of this, when im still paying down my gear:/

jtcoleman

11-14-2008, 10:29 AM

JT, do you feel better today?
Best regards
Brice

Well, I'm certainly pleased that (for the most part) the thread has stayed positive and reasonable. So that's nice. :) I kind of get the feeling some people are replying to the thread without actually reading my original post, though, because they seem to think I'm asking for a free ride. I'm not, and I never was.

As for the rental market, I just have to hope I can get some more projects in before RED gets the second generation of cameras out the door. I really don't see how I could afford an Epic, and evidently I'm the only owner/operator in the world who is nowhere near breakeven on my equipment rentals. I guess I'm crappy at marketing, or something, because everyone else seems to be making a killing. Most of the calls that I get are from indies looking to borrow a camera, not rent one. (with a few exceptions, of course, who are my best friends in the entire world.)

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396
RedAustin.com

lubomir.zvolensky

11-14-2008, 10:34 AM

right, that was exaggerated a bit.

R1 could be seen as computers, ubercool $2000 quadro graphic cards, quad-core $1000 EE processors, plazma TVs... they depreciate in value very fast. Oh yes, the absolute value is different.

What I'm very very curious is how the market will change. IF canon/sony/pana will be adopting anytime soon. Then, RED is placed into chronicles and set in stone.

zergtherobot

11-14-2008, 10:34 AM

I don't even know if scarlet is a better camera then RED. No on is sure if it has variable frame rates with a s35 sensor. It may only be able to shoot 30 or under at 5k. Nothing more at no resolution less. If that's the case then RED purposely limited Scarlet in order to protect RED ONE owners...plus at this point in time, im going to say it, it's all vaporware. None of this is real, they say it will be, but it's not. Time will tell the direction they are going in. For me however, if a $7000 dollar brain cant shoot more then 30fps that is an instant deal breaker. I would also never want to shoot 5k...whats the point. Most of my stuff goes to web and sometimes television, SD television at that. So I think RED needs to be a little more specific on a few things before anyone starts getting the panties in a bunch.

jtcoleman

11-14-2008, 10:45 AM

That's a really valid point, zerg. I'm happy to give RED the benefit of the doubt, and wait to see what happens.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396
RedAustin.com

Buck Forester

11-14-2008, 10:46 AM

S. Um

11-14-2008, 11:05 AM

I wish Sony would give me full purchase credit for my EX1 ($6,500) if I wanted to upgrade to their PDW-700 XDCAM HD ($29,800). Or allow me an upgrade option to the next generaton CMOS chips when they come out with their next model so I wouldn't have to buy a whole new camera to get them.

Good point Buck!

When Red originally said they would render obsolescence obsolete, my understanding was that they would allow upgrades to the sensor. And they are honoring that. But Red is an innovative company, and it's only a matter of time before they come out with something new.

Red One owners have had some time to make money from their investment. Even when Scarlet and Epic come out, 4k will not suddenly go out of style, so those owners can continue to make money from their investment (Just like HD didn't suddenly replace SD). Just because they don't have the latest technology doesn't mean their camera is obsolete. And since display technology hasn't quite caught up yet, most Red owners (including Scarlet and Epic owners) will probably deliver their work in 2k or smaller sizes for some time to come.

And finally, just because Red said that they would render obsolescence obsolete, it doesn't mean that they would do it for free. Nor should owners expect this. I think Red has been more than generous with their upgrades so far: free body replacements for #1-100, free sound card replacements, free flash reader upgrades, continuous firmware upgrades, etc. If Red One owners want to upgrade their sensors, they can do so for a fee. If they want to upgrade to Epic, they can exchange the body for $17.5k credit. If they want to "upgrade" to Scarlet, then they can buy the body for 12% off. Most of their original investment in accessories, such as lenses, viewfinders, recording media, etc., are not "obsolete" and they can still continue to use them.

Yes, it can be painful when the next generation of products come out. But let's face it - it happens with every company, and Red is actually treating its customers much better than any other camera company does.

lubomir.zvolensky

11-14-2008, 11:24 AM

absolutely correct!

Sam Roberts

11-14-2008, 11:45 AM

The problem was never the EPIC, we knew it would be more sophisticated and expensive. It is the price point blending (almost) below the RED One in the form of a far more professional grade, feature rich camera than was expected, that has people freaking out. A "down" upgrade trade is really something worth considering.

R1 owners never expected upgrades for life but we did expect a little more price/feature mileage between us and the two new models.

Jeff Coatney

11-14-2008, 11:50 AM

First of all, Jim Jannard has done more to advance the art and technology of the professional moving image and get it into the hands of the broadest cross-section of filmmakers since Thomas Edison. Jim, I applaud you and your team for this amazing capability and the price at which you are offering it for sale. Thank you.

The system introduced yesterday is the right system, in the right configuration, for the right price-points. Anyone who can afford a used car can produce professional moving images for any application, or soon will. For someone who has the resources to chuck this whole program into a dumpster and wear a rut in some golf course for the rest of his days, Jim has been a tireless innovator and inventor and we've all benefitted from it. In fact, even the biggest detractors of Red are poised to gain financially from Red technology whether they like it or not.

The underlying problem here is not Red's policies or promises. The problem is there has been a fundamental change in the global economic picture that has been and still is impacting the market conditions facing Red owners. The business models the Red owners relied upon when making their decision to buy is facing very real pressure from the freezing of the credit markets and the impact that freeze is having on production budgets. Another huge force in Hollywood is the defacto uncertainty the Actor's threatened strike has had on pending productions. Still another huge obstacle that Red owners face is the concerted effort being leveraged by Jim's competitors to undermine the Red by focusing on "workflow" issues. So, at this moment in history, the average Red owner is under siege on three fronts: The global economy, Unresolved labor disputes and a FUD campaign.

While it can be argued that given Jim's resources, Red Digital Cinema, Inc. may be largely insulated from these forces, the simple fact of the matter is that his customers are not.

I think we should consider the fact that by the time a decision must be made regarding upgrades and Red's policies, it is entirely likely that at least two of these three factors may be resolved, or at the very least mitigated. The unresolved SAG contract is very likely to be resolved in the coming weeks which should loosen the production sector. The workflow issues are being addressed and believe it or not, the Scarlet and Epic announcement may have just goosed that effort into high gear. So workflow issues and the effects of the FUD campaign will lessen in the coming months.

The global economy will begin to stabilize and confidence will return to the markets. Even if that process takes longer than expected, it can create conditions favorable to Red owners by putting even more pressure on budgets. While the Post industry will bear the brunt of a contraction of money, Digital cameras will fill the positions vacated by expensive and inefficient film cameras. Post houses that cater to Red and cameras like it will survive but only after a shake-out that will see a shrinking of capacity in Post facilities across the board.

These last two years have seen booming times in Independent films, and this has created a glut of films in the market. This boom in production has fueled the industry and provided opportunities for Post Production facilities to thrive. However, the available funds for Indies has seen a contraction as the available capital has shrunk. The glut of films coupled with the loss of over $100 billion in the hedge fund market means that fewer and fewer low-budget films will be made over the next two years or so.

The available supply of Reds coupled with the pressures facing long-form content should give rise to a very robust global surge in short-form content. I see Red Owners in the best position to ride this wave. Since Red footage can be shot, edited, and even finished on an Apple desktop, Red does not require expensive HD decks, custom P2 card readers or anything more elaborate than a modest RAID (if that), anyone with an idea can shoot 35mm and come out of the economic wilderness in a year or two with marketable content.

It's tough out there, no doubt. But the idea that the Red One is now obsolete is a non-starter. The Red One is more relevant now than when you put down your deposit. IMHO.

TallGuy

11-14-2008, 12:06 PM

I can not see a time when the R1 would become obsolete or in less demand.

Wow. Quoted to preserve this belief.

Evangelos Achillopoulos

11-14-2008, 12:17 PM

Ralph Wong

11-14-2008, 12:31 PM

Let me add an idea...

I will buy an Epic FF35 in the box untouched for what it worth exactly if I buy it from RED... so a REDONE owner can trade his REDONE with RED and buy with his rebate a typical configuration, sell it to me and get a scarlet minus 12%...

So he will get from me the 17.5K$ and he will buy a Scarlet FF35 for less...

How about that?

Don't panic, there are many ways to take your money back...

Actually, I believe they say you can do one or the other, not both. You can apply the RED 1 towards the purchase of an Epic or you can take the 12% off of a Scarlet. If there are a ton of people who want to buy the Epic, it would put my mind at ease. I just think most people will opt for the Scarlet instead.

Thom Steinhoff

11-14-2008, 01:19 PM

Scarlet will NOT have all the capabilities of a RED ONE. It can't given the size constraints of the boards in the "brain". If you want flexibility and choices... upgrade your RED ONE or upgrade to an EPIC.

Jim

Thanks, Jim.

After this, for me, as a Previously panic'd Red One owner--it is "Sensor Upgrade or Epic or Die trying"

I was going under the assumption that the Max Frame rate of the Scarlet S35 at 5K was 30fps (similar to the Red One's max limit), but went under the assumption that it's internals were like the Red one--only better so that "of course it would have 60fps at 3K, 120 fps @ 2K, etc., etc." , Ramping, etc.

If that is not the case and, say for argument's sake it is limited to 5K 1-30fps, 1080p 1-30fps, and that's it--then I'll say "you'll have to wrestle my Red One out of my cold dead hands" before I'd trade it for a Scarlett.

Long live the Red One and Let's get that Sensor Upgrade going! Nothing will Make Red One owners happy and feeling special like being the first to be able to upgrade their sensors.

Luis de la Cerda

11-14-2008, 01:29 PM

I think RED is shooting itself in the foot by trying to be accountable for matters that shouldn't be their problem. RED's responsibility to their customers should be replacement parts and service, period. Why should they be responsible to offer an upgrade path? The deal was a great camera for 17.5K and that's exactly what customers got. As long as RED supports that camera with parts and service so you can go on using it, you have nothing to complain about. The problem is customers think they purchased a ticket to always shoot with the latest and greatest gear and that was not part of the deal. While it may be true that the camera they purchased was the greatest at the time they purchased it, it will not stay that way forever. The way I saw it, RED ONE rendered obsolescence obsolete because the camera is so good, chances are you will not NEED anything else for a very long time. You might WANT, but you don't NEED. Let's face it, with HD still being slowly adopted, it'll be a long time before you need anything beyond a 4K camera for anything but the weirdest projects. If you think about it, a 6K camera is only going to slow you down at this point, since you'll be dealing with much more data and not really seeing much of a difference in the final delivery.

The problem is that sony, canon, etc... have gotten us so used to upgrading every time something new shows up, that most RED customers are trying to follow the same path. I'm still using my Canon 20D on a regular basis for goodness sakes!

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-14-2008, 01:30 PM

Great avatar, cholo. :)

Luis de la Cerda

11-14-2008, 03:18 PM

It's not really my avatar, I just borrowed it from another forum. It looks awesome when the board's background is white ;)

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-14-2008, 03:20 PM

It's... buggy :)... but in a good way.

Brice Ansel

11-15-2008, 02:59 AM

Well, I'm certainly pleased that (for the most part) the thread has stayed positive and reasonable. So that's nice. :) I kind of get the feeling some people are replying to the thread without actually reading my original post, though, because they seem to think I'm asking for a free ride. I'm not, and I never was.

As for the rental market, I just have to hope I can get some more projects in before RED gets the second generation of cameras out the door. I really don't see how I could afford an Epic, and evidently I'm the only owner/operator in the world who is nowhere near breakeven on my equipment rentals. I guess I'm crappy at marketing, or something, because everyone else seems to be making a killing. Most of the calls that I get are from indies looking to borrow a camera, not rent one. (with a few exceptions, of course, who are my best friends in the entire world.)

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396
RedAustin.com

Jt, I wish you all the best, and as an early believer "396" I think you really deserve it.
I'm just glad I'm not trap in a business plan like a lot of indies here. Just have to enjoy the amazing footages I can get out from the R1 and smile.
Best regards
Brice