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View Full Version : PL mounts on Scarlet FF35 and Epic FF35



Jarred Land
11-13-2008, 02:29 PM
Just wanted to clear up a little confusion, caused by use leaving the option off of the Brochure. ( sorry )

The RED Interchangeable PL Mount will be switchable between both the Epic and Scarlet FF35 Brains.

Of course, most PL lenses do not have a Full Frame image circle, so you will need to shoot in a windowed S35 mode.

Evin Grant
11-13-2008, 02:32 PM
Awesome that's all I had to hear. Can you tell us what resolution the 6K Epic will record in the S35 (16x9) window?

A rough calculation tells me about 4.75K no?

Alexis Hanawalt
11-13-2008, 02:38 PM
Whew. Been waiting all day to here that. Awesome.

Paolo Tinari
11-13-2008, 02:39 PM
That's love.
p.

Mark Pugh
11-13-2008, 02:42 PM
Aah. Thank god.

Cüneyt Kaya
11-13-2008, 02:48 PM
aha...so....thanks....gotta save moooney...

btw.
i can buy a superduper modular epic rig and can keep a lets say scarlet s35 brain as back up in a case? and just switch the bodies, right?

Sanjin Jukic
11-13-2008, 02:48 PM
Amazing!!!!

Mark Pugh
11-13-2008, 02:48 PM
Awesome that's all I had to hear. Can you tell us what resolution the 6K Epic will record in the S35 (16x9) window?

A rough calculation tells me about 4.75K no?

I think less - the pixels are bigger, so it'll be more like 4k.
It'll have less resolution than the Red One for the same sensor area, but the S35 area will be a bit larger than the Red One's.
All fine by me.

Jarred Land
11-13-2008, 03:10 PM
Awesome that's all I had to hear. Can you tell us what resolution the 6K Epic will record in the S35 (16x9) window?

A rough calculation tells me about 4.75K no?

Hey Evin.. great question, we will publish a more detailed chart down the road.

Deanan
11-13-2008, 03:54 PM
FF35 also enables full anamorphic lens coverage.

Steve Gal
11-13-2008, 03:57 PM
FF35 also enables full anamorphic lens coverage.

Now that is what my new Elites would like to hear. I love it. Let the games begin.

Emmanuel Cambier
11-13-2008, 06:22 PM
Great news:)

Emmanuel

Alexis Hanawalt
11-13-2008, 06:48 PM
FF35 also enables full anamorphic lens coverage.

Bury the lead why don't you?

Fredrik Callinggard
11-13-2008, 08:22 PM
FF35 also enables full anamorphic lens coverage.

Finally we're talking Epic :weight_lift:

Jannard
11-13-2008, 08:52 PM
FF35 also enables full anamorphic lens coverage.

...on EPIC only!

Jim

Jason Ing
11-13-2008, 08:56 PM
Ohhh... here comes the limitations. Monstro Scarlett can't take anamorphic.

I loooove anamorphic.

There goes my Scarlett. Thanks Jim!

Dylan Macleod, CSC
11-13-2008, 09:00 PM
Unbelievable. Thanks gentlemen! Epic FF35 here I come!

Paris Remillard
11-13-2008, 09:08 PM
...on EPIC only!

Jim

Well...I'd imagine that one could still shoot with anamorphic lenses on the full, not windowed, FF35 frame of scarlet and then just manually crop and unsqueeze in post if they felt like it. The sensor real estate is still there. Just sayin'...

Paul Hazlett
11-14-2008, 01:30 AM
Ohhh... here comes the limitations. Monstro Scarlett can't take anamorphic.

I loooove anamorphic.

There goes my Scarlett. Thanks Jim!

then buy an Epic or rent one!!!

NateWeaver
11-14-2008, 01:40 AM
Ohhh... here comes the limitations. Monstro Scarlett can't take anamorphic.

I loooove anamorphic.

There goes my Scarlett. Thanks Jim!

I would think it could record anamorphic. It just wouldn't be able to unsqueeze the monitor path.

Stephen Webb
11-14-2008, 02:08 AM
The RED Interchangeable PL Mount will be switchable between both the Epic and Scarlet FF35 Brains.

Cheers Jarred. That's my one big concern dealt with.

Stephen Webb
11-14-2008, 02:15 AM
Awesome that's all I had to hear. Can you tell us what resolution the 6K Epic will record in the S35 (16x9) window?

A rough calculation tells me about 4.75K no?

My Guess would be 4.5K with Look Around.

Pawel Achtel
11-14-2008, 02:29 AM
Just wanted to clear up a little confusion, caused by use leaving the option off of the Brochure. ( sorry )

The RED Interchangeable PL Mount will be switchable between both the Epic and Scarlet FF35 Brains.

Of course, most PL lenses do not have a Full Frame image circle, so you will need to shoot in a windowed S35 mode.

Great!

Well, Master Primes when shooting 1:2.40 may just cover it...I hope. I'm drooling over just a thought :biggrin:

I need to ask Zeiss about the coverage....

ChristopherKenworthy
11-14-2008, 03:25 AM
Ok, happy now. EPIC FF35 is what I want. Now I know that I can put Ultra Primes or Master Primes on, this is what I'll get. Done deal. All the latitude I want, and if 4K is all I get, I'm happy with that.

For features, we want 4K, S35, 13+ stops and fast PL prime lenses. Now we can have that. Very, very happy.

Michael Lindsay
11-14-2008, 03:46 AM
Pawel

If you find out the imaging circle size of all the MP lenses I would love to know?

thanks

Michael

Harva Raj
11-14-2008, 04:47 AM
I would think it could record anamorphic. It just wouldn't be able to unsqueeze the monitor path.

i think if you use carrion LCD monitor, you could unsqueeze the footage in the monitoring path...

David Wyatt
11-14-2008, 05:09 AM
So let me get my head round this...

- with PL mount cine lenses the S35 Epic will do 100fps in 5K (but with "only" 11 stops DR and 12 bit colour space, although at Redcode 225)

- FF35 Epic will do between/roughly 4K - 4.5K with PL mount cine lenses (windowed S35 sensor) but with 13+ stops (estimated!!), 16 bit colour space and Redcode 225. Can anyone hazard a guess (or can Red give an "estimate") of what maximum frame rate this would give you in this S35 windowed mode? I'm guessing it would be more than 100fps (if it can do 100fps in 6K)?? 150fps in the windowed S35 mode would make me involuntarily spasm...

If I understand correctly the S35 Epic with PL mount cine lenses will give you more resolution (5K) than the FF35 Epic (4 - 4.5K windowed S35 sensor?), but the FF35 is giving you more DR and colour space?

I think most productions are going to want to use traditional 35mm cine lenses but the ability to knock off the odd 6K wide shot with your B camera or back-up body set up with a FF35 wide lens would be awesome.

Murat Civcik
11-14-2008, 07:53 AM
FF35 scarlet close to RED ONE ? i am new user and i am confused about that, i have restricted budget but i will shot feature , i mean Is FF35 enough for feature film? , especially it give us film look footages?
Regards

John Moores
11-14-2008, 08:19 AM
RE Master Primes.
I just took a look at a cross section of MPs.

16mm Covers well up to Full Aperture, but slightly soft in corners.
25mm Covers Full Ap, sharp everywhere
40mm Same as above
75mm Covers up to a STILL frame, slight vignetting in corners
150mm Covers a STILL frame. Sharp everywhere.

Im assuming my 35mm STILL frame is the same as RED's FF35.

Hope that helps,
JM

Mark Pugh
11-14-2008, 08:40 AM
RE Master Primes.
I just took a look at a cross section of MPs.

16mm Covers well up to Full Aperture, but slightly soft in corners.
25mm Covers Full Ap, sharp everywhere
40mm Same as above
75mm Covers up to a STILL frame, slight vignetting in corners
150mm Covers a STILL frame. Sharp everywhere.

Im assuming my 35mm STILL frame is the same as RED's FF35.

Hope that helps,
JM

That's fantastic. When you say Full Aperture re the 16, 25 40mm, you mean FF35/ 35mm Still frame? So you're saying all these lenses cover FF35?
The weakest lens there - the 16mm, would have limited use in FF35 anyway.

MP

Jarred Land
11-14-2008, 08:44 AM
Thanks Johnny.. its going to be a bit of a manual experiment... some image circle specs on paper don't exactly translate in real life...

Evangelos Achillopoulos
11-14-2008, 08:52 AM
As I said once... "I will buy the RED TWO or whatever its going to be called... whenever it comes" now it has a name EPIC FF35...

Jarred where is the line for the deposit?

John Moores
11-14-2008, 09:08 AM
That's fantastic. When you say Full Aperture re the 16, 25 40mm, you mean FF35/ 35mm Still frame? So you're saying all these lenses cover FF35?
The weakest lens there - the 16mm, would have limited use in FF35 anyway.

MP

Sorry, perhaps a more useful bit of information would be this;
I'm using a Clairmont laser etched test plate in a projector to look at the various levels of coverage from these lenses. (52mm flange focal depth)
Full Aperature is a 4x3 frame that falls entirely within a 16mm radius circle.
This would include S35, Full AP 1.78, and 35mm anamorphic.

When I said STILL, that refers to a circle that has a radius of 19mm.
However, this particular chart doesn't list aspect ratios for all the formats.
My STILL frame refers to a frame that is 38mm wide by 26mm high.

I'm not a technical genius though, so your results may vary.

JM

John Moores
11-14-2008, 09:09 AM
Thanks Johnny.. its going to be a bit of a manual experiment... some image circle specs on paper don't exactly translate in real life...

No problem. Happy to help.
Best,
John

fde101
11-14-2008, 09:17 AM
FF35 scarlet close to RED ONE ? i am new user and i am confused about that, i have restricted budget but i will shot feature , i mean Is FF35 enough for feature film? , especially it give us film look footages?
Regards

FF35 is a LARGER frame size than the R1, so it could almost be considered overkill...

R1 has a S35-sized sensor, which matches S35 format film.

Scarlet 2/3" has a sensor which is just barely smaller than that of S16 film.


Is anything enough for a feature? Sure! Features have been done with far less than 2/3"; it depends on what kind of look you want to achieve...

This is a creative choice once you get past the question of what you can afford.

If you can't afford FF35, use what you can afford. If you can afford FF35, use what you actually want to use -- maybe it's HDV, maybe it's FF35...


Don't look down on the 2/3" format; far more important than this choice will be the quality of the lighting and the skills of the person using the camera.

Better to have the smaller frame format and get the lighting right...

Not to mention the audio, where you really want to put your attention...

Stephen Williams
11-14-2008, 12:31 PM
Hi,

FF is 8 perf which is twice the size of Full Aperature, so they will not cover. Hardly surprising as they were designed for 35mm motion picture use.

Stephen


Sorry, perhaps a more useful bit of information would be this;
I'm using a Clairmont laser etched test plate in a projector to look at the various levels of coverage from these lenses. (52mm flange focal depth)
Full Aperature is a 4x3 frame that falls entirely within a 16mm radius circle.
This would include S35, Full AP 1.78, and 35mm anamorphic.

When I said STILL, that refers to a circle that has a radius of 19mm.
However, this particular chart doesn't list aspect ratios for all the formats.
My STILL frame refers to a frame that is 38mm wide by 26mm high.

I'm not a technical genius though, so your results may vary.

JM

Häakon
11-14-2008, 12:47 PM
Hi,

FF is 8 perf which is twice the size of Full Aperature, so they will not cover. Hardly surprising as they were designed for 35mm motion picture use.

Stephen
Indeed, moving beyond s35 territory will also mean moving beyond PL lens territory. You can't shoot an imax feature with superspeeds.

Time to bite the bullet and take the next step into digital cinema territory. It's a good time to be alive!

ChristopherKenworthy
11-14-2008, 02:53 PM
Indeed, moving beyond s35 territory will also mean moving beyond PL lens territory. You can't shoot an imax feature with superspeeds.

Time to bite the bullet and take the next step into digital cinema territory. It's a good time to be alive!

I'd move on from the old PL cine lenses is there was something better. But the only alternative for the FF35 I can see at present is a set of Red zoom lenses. I can't seriously convince financiers to fund a movie being shot with zoom lenses that will probably breathe and will be way slower than our Master Primes. Am I missing something?

Stephen Williams
11-14-2008, 03:04 PM
Am I missing something?

Hi,

You higlight the reason why there is little 65mm shot, there are so many more lense options available for S35 or Anaomorphic 35.
Nikon stilll lenses have been used for years for vista vision with VFX crews, that probably wont change.

Stephen

Häakon
11-14-2008, 03:05 PM
Hey Christopher,

No, I don't think you are. I do believe that there is going to be a little pain in the industry until that gets sorted out. I just give RED credit for being the ones to move past the boundary and say, hey, this is where things need to go. Cramming more pixels into a s35-sized chip doesn't help anyone except the film-zealots who like to spout off about how much more dynamic range and this and that they can get with their analogue medium. The steps RED is taking with sensor sizes will open huge doors for image quality concerns. Now is the time for someone to start to develop some serious glass that matches these larger sensors. I am confident someone will. Remember as well that these cameras are at least a year away.

Häakon
11-14-2008, 03:07 PM
Hi,

You higlight the reason why there is little 65mm shot, there are so many more lense options available for S35 or Anaomorphic 35.
That's part of the reason, but the cameras are also hard to come by and the film is bloody expensive. At $12,000 for a FF35 Scarlet, that equation is totally changed.

Stephen Williams
11-14-2008, 03:19 PM
Hi,

Arri has plenty of 765's sitting on the shelf, they rent for half the price of an Arricam but rarely leave the shelves. Panavision even has a very light 65mm for hand holding.

Stephen

Häakon
11-14-2008, 03:25 PM
And that has what to do with the price of 65mm film? The expense of processing and difficulty of managing and scanning that film? The inability to project that film anywhere without some sort of costly conversion? I'm just saying I don't think lens availability is the only or primary reason that people aren't shooting 65mm regularly. If it was cheap and managable, more people would. Inexpensive digital offerings in this area will change this, because moving data around between sizes and formats is easy.

reality
11-14-2008, 03:57 PM
Not to mention the weight of a 765 plus film is also a problem.

Shooting to redcode at 9k IMHO is where real advantage will be. data rates will probably be high but manageable and the cost of bad takes doesn't pile up.

Mark Pugh
11-14-2008, 08:32 PM
...on EPIC only!

Jim

Why would a FF35 sensor not allow anamorphic? it's a smaller area than FF35!
Are you saying you just wouldn't allow it as a sensor crop option on the Scarlet? That would be pretty cruel. Or are you saying you wouldn't offer a de-squeeze for monitoring?

Emanuel A.
11-14-2008, 09:00 PM
Thanks Jarred for posting. It has had some misinformation around the corner:

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?s=&showtopic=34743&view=findpost&p=259429

Mitch Gross
11-14-2008, 09:19 PM
A larger sensor is not necessarily better. One issue is focus -- just ask any AC who has pulled on a 65mm, VistaVision or God help me an IMAX camera. Depth of field is incredibly small.

What I would be far more interested in would be a binning functionality on a large sensor such as the Canon does and in a certain way the Genesis does as well. Having a group of photosite become a single pixel means vastly greater sensitivity as your fill factor is increased and your noise floor drops way down, so therefore you can stop down your lens more or instead shoot in extremely low light for images such as night ext. Did you know that the Canon is about an ISO 1600 in 1920x1080?

Remember, resolution isn't everything, it's what you do with the resolution. Early on the RED One was going to have a 2K mode that would use the full sensor. I was very sad when that spec went away (hey, can't have everything). I think it's the perfect functionality for the Epic no matter what the size of the sensor within.

FMG battery
11-15-2008, 01:34 AM
A larger sensor is not necessarily better. One issue is focus -- just ask any AC who has pulled on a 65mm, VistaVision or God help me an IMAX camera. Depth of field is incredibly small.maybe using slower apertures?.. :wink: it's funny to be me to post you this :)

Pawel Achtel
11-15-2008, 02:45 AM
OK, if 16mm MP proects 16mm radius circle, then we can just fit a frame of

30mm x 12.5mm, which has 1:2.40 aspect ratio

FF35 has 6-micron photo sites, which gives 5k horizontal resolution at that frame size.

I remember projecting 16mm MP and it was only slightly soft in corners of the image circle, but still sharp on the edges.

So, FF35 will be perfect for shooting Scope projected on 30mm wide frame at full 5k. Yeah, baby....http://achtel.com/smiles/banana.gif

Jarred Land
11-15-2008, 02:45 AM
Thanks Jarred for posting. It has had some misinformation around the corner:

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?s=&showtopic=34743&view=findpost&p=259429

thanks for spreading the word man...

FMG battery
11-15-2008, 03:07 AM
...on EPIC only!

Jimwhy?

done..

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=324886#post324886

Júlio Taubkin
11-15-2008, 01:21 PM
Cool, I bitched about this in a couple of posts. Glad to hear I was mistaken!