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wondocam
11-14-2008, 02:17 AM
to be honest, 6k, 9k, 28k... who will need this in the next 5-10 years?

i think the percentage of guys on this forum ever having seen their footage projected in 4k is less than 1%, if a least 1%.

it`s nice for marketing to announce all of this, but...

i`d rather like to see the guys working on a real world project.
the redone is ok to work with, after 17 builds of updates now, and i shurely would like a nice little scarlet preview camera that can switch between canon and pl and that i can use for speciality work in tight places, insane rigs etc..

but has anyone of you ever been asked to produce on 6k? 9k? or above??
or handled data like this?
i mean under normal working conditions where you can`t wait forever on everything, with clients sitting in your neck, and delivery dates?

shure i`d like to be able to play a little david lean and shoot 65mm, digital...
and while it may be possible to produce all the data in recording, it will take apple 20 years to build machines to handle that.

would`nt it be better to focus a little bit on what you really need in the field?
arri does that, the workflow possible with a d21 is far superior to red.
it`s "only" 2k, but with a far better image quality.
and at the moment my clients want 2k and thats it, and when the time comes when 4k will be a reasonable choice there shurely will be an upgrade possible.

all my working life i`ve been haunted by arri`s cryptic interfaces, and now this honor is passed on to the redone`s interface.
i mean in a stressful situation on the set, it takes you forever to change from 25 to 50 fps, long enough to be screamed at :-)

higher iso, lesser noise, faster response, more stops in the chip.. etc.
that would be the real revolutions for me.

i bought every digital 1 series canon straight when it became available, more resolution... more resolution...
but now i`m really considering stepping down to a 5d mkII, not because of the hd capturing gadget feature, but because of the high iso capabilities, thats what`s really revolutionary about that camera.

theres things that really count in photography, especially when you are living of it, and giant sensors with insane resolutions are shurely not the biggest issues...

JanneJansson
11-14-2008, 02:32 AM
to be honest, 6k, 9k, 28k... who will need this in the next 5-10 years?

Microsoft once said "Who ever need a computer with more RAM then 640kB?"

Cheers :)

Ramesh Jai
11-14-2008, 02:41 AM
Microsoft once said "Who ever need a computer with more RAM then 640kB?"

Cheers :)
True. True.

Give people 28K and they will find ways to use it and then complain not having 32K.

I bought a set of lights two years ago which at that time I thought was more than enough for what I did. Today I have tripled the amount of lights I have and am still buying more to achieve what I want.

What seems ridiculous today will fit perfectly in the future. What I don't understand is how come a small group at RED has achieved more than the Sonys, JVCs and the Panasonics with their huge R&D departments?

Passion truly overrides numbers.

Gunleik Groven
11-14-2008, 02:47 AM
Higher DNR was indeed one of the most interesting things announced and is what's going to make a lot choose the FF35 over the S35, even though I cannat see too many people needing the larger chip.

I can see a lot wanting the higher DNR, though.

As to the monster-cam... After thinking for a while, I can see some uses for it.
The fun part is that it is still a bargain, as an image capture device. Not so sure where you'll find optics for such a beast, though, but it should definitely give the DOF hungry something to think about.

Gunleik

Stephen Williams
11-14-2008, 03:15 AM
Hi,

Large format are used for VFX all the time & cropped when shooting film, why should that be different on digital?

Stephen

Paul Leeming
11-14-2008, 04:29 AM
Hey wondo, good to see you here :)

Don't worry, we'll have you well covered for Scarlet and EPIC next year if you head this way again. It should be a great fit to the rig you put together on the last shoot!

Hope it's all looking good anyway. The 4K HD downconvert to 1920x1080 should make for some super sharp, extremely low noise footage!

Cheers from Tokyo,

Paul

Martin Weiss
11-14-2008, 05:05 AM
Just wait until those lenses with multiple focus points hit the market, and suddenly 4k will seem oh-so-SD

Shane Betts
11-14-2008, 05:08 AM
Although the 6x17 is clearly a (not uncommon) stills format, I can see applications for the motion capture for plate shots. Probably unnecessary but imagine those large format plates that can be move around and positioned behind green screen work but now with motion. Trees waving in the breeze, clouds rolling etc. Overkill maybe but certainly an application and resulting in an image as yet unseen or at least, less work in post matting in snow or rain or fire.

Shane Betts
11-14-2008, 05:15 AM
to be honest, 6k, 9k, 28k... who will need this in the next 5-10 years?

i think the percentage of guys on this forum ever having seen their footage projected in 4k is less than 1%, if a least 1%.

Yeah, I kinda agree. I've seen stuff shot at 1080p that looked OK on a big screen but...

I don't think the resolution is actually the point here - think about the sensor size and what that means for depth of field, circle of confusion, field of view etc. Most of the sensors have very similar pixel density but it's the physics of larger target areas from which we will see the major advantage IMHO.

The 6x4.5 and 6x17 imagers are for the stills world. They're fairly standard over there and that's clearly the major intended market for them. The fact that they can shoot motion is just cool.

Jeff Kilgroe
11-14-2008, 08:00 AM
It's never enough...

Other than planning to upgrade my RED, at some point, to the EPIC FF35, I'm so excited over the 28K 617. I probably can't justify having it and the EPIC, or at least not right now. But maybe in 2 years I can. The possibilities of that 28K frame for FX work is just mind-blowing.

Deanan
11-14-2008, 08:03 AM
It's never enough...

Other than planning to upgrade my RED, at some point, to the EPIC FF35, I'm so excited over the 28K 617. I probably can't justify having it and the EPIC, or at least not right now. But maybe in 2 years I can. The possibilities of that 28K frame for FX work is just mind-blowing.

It also opens up some interesting opportunities for special venue theaters and more flexible stock footage.

number6
11-14-2008, 08:36 AM
It also opens up some interesting opportunities for special venue theaters and more flexible stock footage.

When I first saw that huge chip size and shape I thought "Cinemascope?"

Deanan
11-14-2008, 10:32 AM
When I first saw that huge chip size and shape I thought "Cinemascope?"

"America the Beautiful II" :)

number6
11-14-2008, 10:56 AM
"America the Beautiful II" :)

"Louie, this could be the beginning of a beautiful franchise.":usd:

Häakon
11-14-2008, 12:54 PM
to be honest, 6k, 9k, 28k... who will need this in the next 5-10 years?
Because [digital] images shot in their native size never look as good as ones which are oversampled. If you want the best looking 1080p image possible, I'd say a 6K sensor is about where you should aim. I know I'll catch flack for that, but it will make sense when the images start coming down the pipes. The 9K sensor is going to make phenomenal 4K/big screen blowups. The 28K... yeah, that's probably overkill. :-)

Eddy Robinson
11-14-2008, 09:14 PM
9k for broadcast TV is already in development. Look up 'super hi-vision' and be amazed. That's your 9k market right there.

Wesley Scoggins
11-14-2008, 09:20 PM
For the 28k, I see that as making sense for ultra-large displays in advertising both for still and video. The 25fps allows them leverage so if there is a massive digital display they can have a short clip play on the ad over and over if they want to instead of just having a very high quality still.

Lucas Wilson
11-14-2008, 10:11 PM
I have nothing valid to add here other than I was a serious Sisters of Mercy freak for a long time, and still terrify my kids occasionaly with "Marian" and "Flood" at high volurme... and appreciate the reference in the title.

Lucas Wilson
------------
VP of Retired Goth Freaks
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Stuart English
11-14-2008, 10:11 PM
9K : Hope you are right about that - it'd be a blast to go after that opportunity.

28K : Shoot a "still" sequence at 25 fps to find the one that's the keeper....and lots of non-traditional applications.

Deanan
11-14-2008, 10:54 PM
Build it and they will come :)

Seriously, 28k opens up a whole new world of possibilities and people we've talked to are already planning to do some amazing things with it. I can't wait to get my hands on the 617. It's about the resolution alone, it's about defining a new canvas for motion imaging.

Jason Sinclair
11-14-2008, 10:58 PM
First resolution in capture has nothing to do with delivery.... 9k to web will always look better than hd to web for example... Why people are still bringing that angle into resolution debates in this day and age continually baffles me...

Not saying you don't have points , it's just that angle really is disfunct. We continually see the higher capture, wether it will end up in its native res. or not will always be better quality.

The question really is where is the sweet spot from my perspective..


Secondly, You have to understand that in the production of mysterium x and monstro there will be the highest regard to, lets face it, sensitivity and response to light (iso, noise etc... they are all related to the one technical difficulty) getting the most from those sensors. This we can guarantee will be the latest technology available.... As the technology evolves we will see more dynamic range etc.... as well... You do not have to double guess that the increase in dynamic range and towards less noise is probably the most singular crucial thing on this companies agenda... It's a given.

Kevin Wild
11-14-2008, 11:18 PM
I agree with the original poster...the resolution battle hopefully will die soon, just as speed issues have died for most CONSUMER computer users. I know RED has some things in the works for storage and all, but we shoot with our RED One at least a couple days a week and it's very hard to even keep up with backing up all the 4k media. LTO is SLOW, very slow. With the huge increase in resolution, RED may have a miracle in store, but the files will be even bigger and even more time consuming.

So...4K, 5K...all good enough for Hollywood right now...so it's good enough for me, for sure. (And I truly think good enough for 95% of the people on these boards.) That said, I'm all for increased dynamic range and other things like that. But I hope RED keeps in mind it is not all about resolution. There are MANY other things they could be doing to help service our purchases. Like...hmm...let me think...I'll get back to you after I read the bug-free RED Cine and RED Alert manuals. :-)

Just my opinion, but the reason I will be upgrading our R1 to Epic S35 has nothing to do with resolution. It's size, weight, dynamic range, real audio connectors and just the idea that it's a V2, which unless you are Microsoft, is usually better than V1. :-)

diskojerk
11-15-2008, 12:01 AM
My grandfather holds the original patent on LCD flat screen technology. He shopped the idea to all the big companies, Xerox, IBM, etc back in the late sixties and early 70's. Why is he not a billionaire today? Because all those companies said "what would we need a flat screen for?". Now there is a flat screen LCD monitor on just about every desk and TV stand in the world.

Why do we need 6K, 9K or 28K? Maybe we just don't know yet.

jamyjamy
11-15-2008, 12:30 AM
"to be honest, 6k, 9k, 28k... who will need this in the next 5-10 years?"

I think it is not the questions about 6k, 9k, 28k or whatever resolution! The question is: Will we get a free & working Software Development Kid for the future Codecs sooner. Not like it is today, that we have cheap camerabodies and then no good going more slow going workflow, because we always wait that we really can use the Codec.

The Codec is based on JPEG2000 at the moment. But as soon as RED really manage to make its own Codec, all those who sing the "hurra"-story about cheap bodies, will soon find out that a company at the end wants to make money and it is not with the resolution of the cheap camerabodies. It is the story about the 5% information about the software & Codec that makes the profit. So we will have to wait until RED will deliver these cameras and we will see what Codec will be available with what kind of Software Development Kid.

Beside that the profit is also in the accessories. If you really read, what is between the lines. For example: why is one EPIC with a PL Mount and the ones with a higher resolution have a RED-Mount? Answer: of course you can have a PL adaptor, but will have to pay for it or you use the future RED-Lenses with the RED Mount...:-) Do RED wants to establish a new standard for lense mounts? If RED leave the path of compatibility to force the people to buy there stuff. I do not know.

I think the announcement of RED was more a "sales"-driven "Hurra"-Announcment. Will this all prove itself in reality? We will see earliest end of 2009!-))

I really like the RED-Idea, but I hope we all will not wake up with a big headache form the "cheap"-body party!

jamyjamy
11-15-2008, 12:40 AM
I agree with the original poster...the resolution battle hopefully will die soon, just as speed issues have died for most CONSUMER computer users. I know RED has some things in the works for storage and all, but we shoot with our RED One at least a couple days a week and it's very hard to even keep up with backing up all the 4k media. LTO is SLOW, very slow. With the huge increase in resolution, RED may have a miracle in store, but the files will be even bigger and even more time consuming.

So...4K, 5K...all good enough for Hollywood right now...so it's good enough for me, for sure. (And I truly think good enough for 95% of the people on these boards.) That said, I'm all for increased dynamic range and other things like that. But I hope RED keeps in mind it is not all about resolution. There are MANY other things they could be doing to help service our purchases. Like...hmm...let me think...I'll get back to you after I read the bug-free RED Cine and RED Alert manuals. :-)

Just my opinion, but the reason I will be upgrading our R1 to Epic S35 has nothing to do with resolution. It's size, weight, dynamic range, real audio connectors and just the idea that it's a V2, which unless you are Microsoft, is usually better than V1. :-)

You sing it...:-)

Deanan
11-15-2008, 12:45 AM
Will we get a free & working Software Development Kid for the future Codecs sooner. Not like it is today, that we have cheap camerabodies and then no good going more slow going workflow, because we always wait that we really can use the Codec.

The SDK will be tracking along with the camera development schedule. When the cameras are ready, so will be the SDK. Support for REDcode from the new cameras will be plug and play to SDK developers which of course is the whole point of having an SDK.

jamyjamy
11-15-2008, 12:51 AM
The SDK will be tracking along with the camera development schedule. When the cameras are ready, so will be the SDK. Support for REDcode from the new cameras will be plug and play to SDK developers which of course is the whole point of having an SDK.

I hope so..:-) Build16 is not really working at the moment. Even the Sratchsystem still have problems with it. We will see!

Will there be a new RED-Codec in the future or will still be based on JPEG2000? And will it be for free?

Jason Murphy
11-15-2008, 05:19 AM
I gotta say, the 617 (and also its relatively ridiculously low price) was a pretty great announcement. As a large format photographer and a filmmaker who has at various moments dreamed about how great it would be to shoot 4x5 or 8x10 film at 24 FPS, I can imagine some amazing things that some enterprising artist/filmmaker could do with that camera. Hell, I can think of a ton of things off the top of my head that I'D want to do with it if I had the money.

Also, the other thing is of course, that since RED is going this far so fast, it puts itself in a very strong position to play a huge determining role as to how the future high end imaging world unfolds with regards to the market, standards, projection, etc. And have to say, I can't think of another group of people I'd rather have at the helm at this point.

Jannard
11-15-2008, 05:35 AM
We don't expect that everyone will want a 617, but we have already had enough feedback that warrants doing it. Plus... I want one.

Jim

Benni Diez
11-15-2008, 05:47 AM
For Christ's sake. What's with all the complaining?
It's not like they build a 28K camera and offer yu no other choice. You have every choice! Most versatile sensor program, unprecedented dynamic range (for motion that is), and prices not to beat in a long, long time. If you don't think a 28k pixel bomb is necessary - don't buy it.
For a while you could easily ask: Who needs 70mm film? There are only a bunch of theatres and a bunch of cameras in the world.
Enter the visionaries: Now we have Dark Knight, emerging 3D, Imax having their best time in decades. Because a few crazy guys looked at the big picture. And they saw it was beautiful.
Naysayers have tiny wieners! :)

wondocam
11-15-2008, 06:39 AM
i was hoping that the kindergarten would not join us on this discussion and that the level of argumentation would stay mannered, but now.. benni hit the deck.

this forum is overflowing with this fanboy bullsh**t and is really annoying to read or get information from.

so, wiener sizes aside, maybe i can get a real working reliable r1 camera before you guys flood the market with the other half ready stuff?

and if i want a large wide format digital i can already buy it right now, seitz 6X17 - 160mp - 35000$...

i`ll discuss the rest with my rental guys in private, i think that`s a more appropriate way to get information.

bye

Benni Diez
11-15-2008, 06:53 AM
Fanboy: yes. BS: no.
No reason to get personal.

Kyle Presley
11-15-2008, 07:40 AM
Man, I can't believe all the complaints rolling in... Maybe Red is not for YOU? Go with another company.

Robin Balas
11-15-2008, 10:03 AM
i was hoping that the kindergarten would not join us on this discussion and that the level of argumentation would stay mannered, but now.. benni hit the deck.

this forum is overflowing with this fanboy bullsh**t and is really annoying to read or get information from.

so, wiener sizes aside, maybe i can get a real working reliable r1 camera before you guys flood the market with the other half ready stuff?

and if i want a large wide format digital i can already buy it right now, seitz 6X17 - 160mp - 35000$...

i`ll discuss the rest with my rental guys in private, i think that`s a more appropriate way to get information.

bye

Seitz 617 is based on a scanning back needing a full fledged XP machine hooked up at all times and is purpose built to order - a really special tool for panoramas, customized to each client - nothing like a general camera which supports flash or series of shots or even motion without skew.
MHO

Mark Pugh
11-15-2008, 10:18 AM
so, wiener sizes aside


I think Benni hit a nerve.

Benni Diez
11-15-2008, 10:51 AM
Seriously: No one really needs a 28K image except for giant panoramic printouts or multiple projector setups. But that's not the point. The EPIC 617 is a great first step towards a lenticular camera. Or you could tweak it for bracketing and get insane dynamic range and close to zero noise!
Output formats won't be larger than 4k for a long time. It's all about subpixels and what you can do with them.

Poi Boy
11-15-2008, 11:12 AM
Count me in Jim, 617, I want one.
Aloha
-A

Eddy Robinson
11-15-2008, 12:35 PM
I gotta say, the 617 (and also its relatively ridiculously low price) was a pretty great announcement. As a large format photographer and a filmmaker who has at various moments dreamed about how great it would be to shoot 4x5 or 8x10 film at 24 FPS, I can imagine some amazing things that some enterprising artist/filmmaker could do with that camera. Hell, I can think of a ton of things off the top of my head that I'D want to do with it if I had the money.

Please share some of these ideas. I also think it's awesome but I don't know much about large format photography and I was having trouble imagining how you would get moving images back to the screen. I was also startled to see it has an aspect ratio of 3.3:1; the ghost of Sergio Leone must be delighted.

So, Jim...since you want one (which is justification enough...) where do you plan to watch the resulting footage?

Poi Boy
11-15-2008, 01:50 PM
"and if i want a large wide format digital i can already buy it right now, seitz 6X17 - 160mp - 35000$..."


bye[/QUOTE]

the seitz is a scannnnnn back, totally different beast, like apples and oranges.
-A

Jared Caldwell
11-15-2008, 02:07 PM
Plus... I want one.
Jim

LOL! I want one, too...to take with me to space! :}

DaveT
11-15-2008, 04:14 PM
We don't expect that everyone will want a 617, but we have already had enough feedback that warrants doing it. Plus... I want one.

Jim

Ha ha nice one :biggrin:

Nick Ambrose
11-15-2008, 07:34 PM
Plus... I want one.

Jim


Seems like the least you deserve :)

Charles Angus
11-15-2008, 10:25 PM
The more oversampling the better.

jamyjamy
11-16-2008, 01:32 AM
Also, the other thing is of course, that since RED is going this far so fast, it puts itself in a very strong position to play a huge determining role as to how the future high end imaging world unfolds with regards to the market, standards, projection, etc. And have to say, I can't think of another group of people I'd rather have at the helm at this point.

I get the feeling here, that it is like: if you are not for RED you are against it. (Well we know this way of think from other events on this planet) Let me says that I love the way of the RED-RAW-4K idea. I shoot all my films on 35mm until REDONE, because it changed the world of filmmaking. But it is also absolut ok, if I thinking (= means using brain=) about what is going on with my camera and the workflow now an in the future. And even and sepcially because RED-Camera bodies are so cheap, it is really necessary to take a close look on what are the sideeffects.

A nice way to a play a "hugh" roll would be not to talk about Software Development Kids that will be "plug & play". A strong player should be able to deliver a fine Software development Kid. But when I sit in front of a Grading-System (also SCRATCH) I only grad in 1K in Realtime. Well that is "hugh" for the money I pay for that kind of licence and system..:-)


The SDK will be tracking along with the camera development schedule. When the cameras are ready, so will be the SDK. Support for REDcode from the new cameras will be plug and play to SDK developers which of course is the whole point of having an SDK.


I asked a simple question: Will there be a new RED-Codec in the future or will still be based on JPEG2000? And will it be for free? Is there a answer? No there is no answer coming. It is time to stop lollygagging about this poor SDK-theme.

Red "puts itself in a very strong position". It was a good start (5.000 cameras inkl Accessories * 30.000 = 150 Mio minus costs stuff+material), but it is not yet like this. As long the RED-Codec is based on JPEG2000, RED ist not independend. JPEG2000 is owned by some people, also from SONY with some patents. And RED cameras poachs in the fields of SONY. Let's hope that Sony will not step back from the JPEG2000 consortium. Otherwise your Camerabody is for the shelf to look at it and then even 3000$ fro a scarlet is a lot of money. But because of that, I strong believe that RED will come over with its own CODEC and it is my right as a costomer to ask, will this be for free or will I have to pay for it later on? And if I have to pay for it, how much is it! By the way, can I still do the grading on the system or do have to pay again?

reality
11-16-2008, 02:11 AM
I get the feeling here, that it is like: if you are not for RED you are against it. (Well we know this way of think from other events on this planet) Let me says that I love the way of the RED-RAW-4K idea. I shoot all my films on 35mm until REDONE, because it changed the world of filmmaking. But it is also absolut ok, if I thinking (= means using brain=) about what is going on with my camera and the workflow now an in the future. And even and sepcially because RED-Camera bodies are so cheap, it is really necessary to take a close look on what are the sideeffects.

A nice way to a play a "hugh" roll would be not to talk about Software Development Kids that will be "plug & play". A strong player should be able to deliver a fine Software development Kid. But when I sit in front of a Grading-System (also SCRATCH) I only grad in 1K in Realtime. Well that is "hugh" for the money I pay for that kind of licence and system..:-)




I asked a simple question: Will there be a new RED-Codec in the future or will still be based on JPEG2000? And will it be for free? Is there a answer? No there is no answer coming. It is time to stop lollygagging about this poor SDK-theme.

Red "puts itself in a very strong position". It was a good start (5.000 cameras inkl Accessories * 30.000 = 150 Mio minus costs stuff+material), but it is not yet like this. As long the RED-Codec is based on JPEG2000, RED ist not independend. JPEG2000 is owned by some people, also from SONY with some patents. And RED cameras poachs in the fields of SONY. Let's hope that Sony will not step back from the JPEG2000 consortium. Otherwise your Camerabody is for the shelf to look at it and then even 3000$ fro a scarlet is a lot of money. But because of that, I strong believe that RED will come over with its own CODEC and it is my right as a costomer to ask, will this be for free or will I have to pay for it later on? And if I have to pay for it, how much is it! By the way, can I still do the grading on the system or do have to pay again?

Interesting Japanese-English tone to your post. Who are you really?

jamyjamy
11-16-2008, 02:16 AM
Interesting Japanese-English tone to your post. Who are you really?

As long as you understand me, I am happy :sarcasm: I am german and a normal REDONE-User. Producer, director and will shoot my next movie spring 2009.

Pawel Achtel
11-16-2008, 02:38 AM
We don't expect that everyone will want a 617, but we have already had enough feedback that warrants doing it. Plus... I want one.

Jim

That's funny http://achtel.com/smiles/rofl.gif

I can understand this completely. Not on such a big scale, but I'm like this with my underwater toys...

Petr Dvorak
11-16-2008, 06:18 PM
Microsoft once said "Who ever need a computer with more RAM then 640kB?"

Cheers :)

Look at story of mouse device. When it was invented and what said John C. Dvorak about it not long time ago :biggrin: