The big choice: Epic S35 or FF35...

[Leo Ticheli]

At first blush the trade in choice for me was obviously the Epic S35; I need the high frame rates and use PL Mount lenses.

Now I'm not so sure that the Epic FF35 is not the better choice because of the Monstro sensor with it's promised 13+ stops of DR, but only if the windowed sensor for PL lens coverage will yield the same DR.

Also, are there any other disadvantages to using the FF35 with PL lenses?

Can anyone at Red shed light on this? Since the Epic FF35 is quite a bit more expensive, I'd like to weigh the difference in my planning.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Andrae Palmer]

Also, are there any other disadvantages to using the FF35 with PL lenses?


Good question I'm now looking at the FF35 has my upgrade path too and wondering the same..

[cinemano]

I know.. all these choices are mind boggling.. now that the Scarlet has a lens mount option i cant even decide between scarlet or EPIC buaah wonder it the 5K scarlet has lower quality to the 5K epic?? they have the same sensor no?

[Andrae Palmer]

I know.. all these choices are mind boggling.. now that the Scarlet has a lens mount option i cant even decide between scarlet or EPIC buaah wonder it the 5K scarlet has lower quality to the 5K epic?? they have the same sensor no?

Just lower frame rates from what Jim posted. More and more the low end Epic does not seem like a viable option for me. Same mysterium sensor, 11 stops instead of 13, lower resolution, not full frame.... screw that its a Scarlet on steroids.

[JohnF]

It appears to be that EPICs have improved data rates=less compression=improved picture.

Though a S35 windowed EPIC FF35 appears to give a slightly lower resolution when running a 30x15 PL window than the EPIC S35 (ATM).

JohnF

[Mark Pugh]

Just lower frame rates from what Jim posted. More and more the low end Epic does not seem like a viable option for me. Same mysterium sensor, 11 stops instead of 13, lower resolution, not full frame.... screw that its a Scarlet on steroids.

Actually the lower-end epic will have higher resolution for a given sensor area, as it's pixels are smaller - 5.4 microns, as opposed to 6 microns for the monstro models.

[Andrae Palmer]

will have higher resolution for a given sensor area

I guess you are right but not higher resolution over all. The Scarlet is 24MP and the wimpy Epic is 13.8MP. The Scarlet FF35 is 36 x 24mm and the wimpy Epic is 30x15mm. The pixel dimensions for the wimpy Epic are 5120 x 2700 and the Scarlet is 6000 x 4000.

[Emery Wells]

At first blush the trade in choice for me was obviously the Epic S35; I need the high frame rates and use PL Mount lenses.

Now I'm not so sure that the Epic FF35 is not the better choice because of the Monstro sensor with it's promised 13+ stops of DR, but only if the windowed sensor for PL lens coverage will yield the same DR.

Also, are there any other disadvantages to using the FF35 with PL lenses?

Can anyone at Red shed light on this? Since the Epic FF35 is quite a bit more expensive, I'd like to weigh the difference in my planning.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo



Why would DR change when using a windowed portion of the sensor?

[Harva Raj]

my pure speculation is, after the mysterium sensor in red one in 2007-2008, red's plan for 2009 is the mysterium x sensor, and for 2010 is the monstro sensor. (i think) the monstro sensor doesn't even exist ..... the spects are subjected to change.. and red will test and select the best and suitable sensor for digital filmmaking from range of sensor from the same company and just name that sensor as monstro..

the FF35 epic and scarlet will only be out april/may 2010 around NAB (my pure guess)
...so we have a lot of time...


you can use anamorphic lens and carrion LCD to unsqueeze and monitor the squeezed footage...


Good (anamorphic) shooting and best regards,

sky1walker

[Mark Pugh]

Does anyone know - will the Epics be allowed to run at Redcode 42?

[JanneJansson]

Does anyone know - will the Epics be allowed to run at Redcode 42?

As I understood what Jim said, Epic can do it all. no limits. Just that first the S35 will be made and released, then some months later the FF35 will be released with yet another better sensor.

[Mark L. Pederson]

At first blush the trade in choice for me was obviously the Epic S35; I need the high frame rates and use PL Mount lenses.

Now I'm not so sure that the Epic FF35 is not the better choice because of the Monstro sensor with it's promised 13+ stops of DR, but only if the windowed sensor for PL lens coverage will yield the same DR.

Also, are there any other disadvantages to using the FF35 with PL lenses?

Can anyone at Red shed light on this? Since the Epic FF35 is quite a bit more expensive, I'd like to weigh the difference in my planning.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
Hey Leo -

The answer is IMO ... upgrade to an Epic S35.

There could easily be a delay for the MONSTRO sensor, and you'll want to get into the Epic as fast as possible.

Now ... if we knew 100% that the FF35 would be only 3 months after the S35 - the choice is a bit tougher. But we can't know 100% ... because most likely ... RED doesn't know 100%. They are just busting their ass full steam ahead.

It also depends what you do with your camera. The Red One makes amazing pictures if you know what you are doing. We are all going to see some amazing films shot on Red One.

But technology will never stop improving. Get into the EPIC system ASAP and grow with it.

[Andrae Palmer]

There could easily be a delay for the MONSTRO sensor, and you'll want to get into the Epic as fast as possible.

Would you really want to do that? What will be the upgrade path to a Monstro? Will you have to buy a 35k brain with no trade-in value?

[Darren Orange]

Would you really want to do that? What will be the upgrade path to a Monstro? Will you have to buy a 35k brain with no trade-in value?

This is a good question. Maybe RED has thought about this?

[JanneJansson]

I'm in line for a S35 and (hopefully) upgrading to FF35 some day. :)

[Leo Ticheli]

Hey Leo -

The answer is IMO ... upgrade to an Epic S35.

There could easily be a delay for the MONSTRO sensor, and you'll want to get into the Epic as fast as possible.

Now ... if we knew 100% that the FF35 would be only 3 months after the S35 - the choice is a bit tougher. But we can't know 100% ... because most likely ... RED doesn't know 100%. They are just busting their ass full steam ahead.

It also depends what you do with your camera. The Red One makes amazing pictures if you know what you are doing. We are all going to see some amazing films shot on Red One.

But technology will never stop improving. Get into the EPIC system ASAP and grow with it.

Thank you, Mark,

I think President Obama should appoint you to a new cabinet post, Secretary of Film Making.

While we do have a lot of smart cookies here at RedUser, you're the tops; I never pass on one of your posts.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Mark L. Pederson]

Would you really want to do that? What will be the upgrade path to a Monstro? Will you have to buy a 35k brain with no trade-in value?
Yes. We will upgrade every Red One we have to S35.

We will ROI S35s extremely quickly, possibly even before they release FF35

Then we will buy FF35s.

Remember, lots of folks laughed at us back in the day and we ROI'd two cameras in under 90 days.

I'm in this for the whole ride until I retire.

Buy the S35 and rent the FF35 Brain from Offhollywood.

Jim is selling BRAINS and we're BUYING.

[Andrae Palmer]

Buy the S35 and rent the FF35 Brain from Offhollywood.

HaHa... why not keep working with a perfectly good RED One until you can afford to upgrade to the FF35? Who knows when the S35 will be released... it seems like RED is on the ball now... I would play it safe unless you got deep pockets like Offhollywood. Being stuck with an S35 and no trade-in value to a Monstro would suck. That would be around a 27.5k mole hill to climb. The S35 is not much different from a RED One.. I don't see why anyone would want to buy into it.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I would play it safe unless you got deep pockets like Offhollywood. Being stuck with an S35 and no trade-in value to a Monstro would suck. That would be around a 27.5k mole hill to climb.

You play it how you want ... and I'll play it how I want.

Contrary to popular belief ... you don't need deep pockets.

You need balls.

[Andrae Palmer]

You play it how you want ... and I'll play it how I want.

Contrary to popular belief ... you don't need deep pockets.

You need balls.

Yeah that's all good when you have more money to play with. I see a lot of people that got their balls snipped crying on here about not being capable of upgrading to an Epic. Yeah they sure had balls when they bought into an R1. Only to be delayed by accessories back order and an overly saturated market.

[JanneJansson]

..then be first with Epic, have an advantage :)

[Andrae Palmer]

..then be first with Epic, have an advantage :)

I would love to be... with an epic FF35. I have the money on stand by and not scared to pull the trigger. Just not interested in the S35.

[Ariana]

Yeah that's all good when you have more money to play with. I see a lot of people that got their balls snipped crying on here about not being capable of upgrading to an Epic. Yeah they sure had balls when they bought into an R1. Only to be delayed by accessories back order and an overly saturated market.

$10k to upgrade to EPIC is an awesome deal considering all the improvements.

I think once EPIC comes out, people won't hesitate to upgrade.

[Andrae Palmer]

$10k to upgrade to EPIC is an awesome deal considering all the improvements.

I think once EPIC comes out, people won't hesitate to upgrade.

Yeah Epic FF35... I had money for two more R1's now back in the piggy bank waiting on the Epic. I don't see all the improvements with the S35. Its funny how RED just switched the Dynamic Range of the R1's... lol. Suddenly its 10 stops instead of over 11. In any case by my guess work it will cost at least 20k to upgrade to any Epic.

[Joe Walker]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around pulling focus on a FF35, or even, god forbid, a 645!!!:help:

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

I think Mark is right. Get the S35, then get the FF35.

(congrats on the baby!)

The other problem this will solve for me is that once I upgrade to the FF35, I've got a solid back up "brain". That has been a real issue for me as an "owner/operator". Whenever I get booked on a shoot I make some calls to make sure I have a back up camera a phone call away.

The modularity of the system really makes this all feasable.

If you make a living as a DP, making the money back is a no brainer. I paid for my R1 in the first few months. It was everything else (matte box, filters, tripod) that dug in to the bank account - and I'll continue to use that gear with the new cameras.

Fun ride, no?

[Fredrik Callinggard]

The way it looks to me is that it's a clear upgrade path. You change sensor and mount and you're ready to go?

What I'm hoping for is an upgrade path by RED, when it comes to costs, that is not to steep. Because it looks to me that you simply change your mounts according to preference of shooting, that is if you have the larger sensor installed.

Now this is all speculation, of course, but if we're able to shoot ANA windowed (as said in a thread somewhere) why can't we shoot PL windowed and so on and then change and shoot 645 when we want to?

[Gunleik Groven]

The S35 -->> FF35 seems like the logical steps.

The price in between is intersting, though.

[Dominique Grenier]

Another thing to consider is that, unless there's options to lower the data rate (which I'm sure there will), Epic run at 225MB/sec, which is over 6 times more than Redcode36. At this rate, a RED Drive with 320GB gives you about 22 minutes of footage, and a 16GB card... 67sec. This is without counting the transcode time, the storage needed, etc..

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but those are things that needs to be taken into consideration as well.

[Christian Tanner]

as funny as it might sound...

but i would let FOOTAGE decide whether to go with s35 ff35 scarlet/epic.
i'm really looking forward to see some footage shot on an epic. the shot of the "milk girls" when it got first released? that was the moment i decided that i had to shoot with the red one camera asap.

i guess the day i'll see a "milk girl" shot equivalent, shot on one of the new cameras - that day will be my personal 13th of november.

plus there's other stuff that i would consider apart from the obvious resolution, frame rate etc. that 1min.45second-ish booting time for instance, really took me by surprise when i was shooting with the red for the first time.

tanner

p.s.: jim (and of course the red team in general) if you're hearing this - although it is a ridiculously small chance you haven't considered this already - i shall officially suggest at this point to shoot something like you guys did with the red one asap. if this is going to look like what i think it's going to look like - well...

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Another thing to consider is that, unless there's options to lower the data rate (which I'm sure there will), Epic run at 225MB/sec, which is over 6 times more than Redcode36. At this rate, a RED Drive with 320GB gives you about 22 minutes of footage, and a 16GB card... 67sec. This is without counting the transcode time, the storage needed, etc..

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but those are things that needs to be taken into consideration as well.

I doubt a RED Drive is fast enough not even sure a RED RAM is, for reading maybe but not for writing.

[David Mullen ASC]

Some explain to me why the FF35 Epic would be better than the S35 Epic again? Would the picture quality of cropping the FF35 sensor to a S35 window be the same, better, or worse, than using an EPIC with a S35 sensor?

[Karl Gustav H.]

If I'm reading the announcement right, the S35 Epic brain uses the 12bit MysteriumX sensor with 11 stops of DR. The FF35 Epic gets the 16bit Monstro sensor with 13 stops.

[Daniel Browning]

Some explain to me why the FF35 Epic would be better than the S35 Epic again?

People want the S35 Epic with the Monstro sensor technology and I bet RED is already planning to do that.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

Some explain to me why the FF35 Epic would be better than the S35 Epic again? Would the picture quality of cropping the FF35 sensor to a S35 window be the same, better, or worse, than using an EPIC with a S35 sensor?

Yes, it's the dynamic range I'm after, not the larger sensor.

[Jim Exton]

If the Red One is upgradeable to a Monstro sensor, then I would think that the Epic S35mm is too.

Perhaps that is why there was a mention of a free upgrade to the Monstro sensor for people who bought the Epic.... since it looks like the Monstro is coming out only 3 - 6 months later than the release date of the S35 with the Mysterium X chip.

One would buy the Epic S35mm, shoot with the X chip, and then either get a free upgrade or pay for the Monstro chip.

My question is: consider an S35mm Monstro vs. the FF35 Monstro. What would be the advantages, if any, of going with the FF35? IF you are staying with PL mount lenses.

[Häakon]

Some explain to me why the FF35 Epic would be better than the S35 Epic again?
There are many reasons. The first that most people will point to is that they use different chips - the s35 uses the "Mysterium-X," while the FF35 uses the Monstro. According to the data tables on the new page, the Monstro chip yields two more stops of dynamic range, much better A/D conversion, and larger photosites than the Mysterium. All significant upgrades.

The second reason is that the sensor itself is quite a bit larger in physical size. All other things being equal, a larger sensor is going to yield a higher-quality image because when you oversample down to your finishing format (1080p, 2K or 4K for projection, whatever...), you get the benefits of reduced noise, a smoothing out of aliasing properties, and a slightly better DR curve. I've made the analogy several times, but if you want to end up with a 1MP still image to show people, you'd be much better off shooting it with an 8MP camera and oversampling than you would with a 1MP native camera. RED deserves huge kudos for breaking the s35 barrier and getting us into better image quality territory.

The side effect will be that those who own PL-lenses or can't be bothered to use newer, different format glass will see less of an improvement with the FF35 camera because slapping s35 glass in front of the bigger sensor means you can't use the entire thing and the benefits of the larger image is lost. However, you still get the expanded dynamic range and better A/D conversion which will translate into better images so no matter how you slice it, the FF35 is a better option. It's just that much better of an option if you can move away from PL glass.

[Häakon]

If the Red One is upgradeable to a Monstro sensor, then I would think that the Epic S35mm is too.
Like Mark pointed out, I think the whole point of the "brain" approach is that all you need to do to get a better sensor is buy a new brain. All of the controls, outputs, media connections, etc. are separate and will latch on to any brain you choose. That's precisely why they're calling them brains and not bodies. So if you make a RED s35 system and configure it with the components you want and later decide you want the FF35 sensor, you just swap out the brain. No "upgrade" path is necessary. This is not the case for the RED ONE where the controls, outputs, and media connections are all physical parts of the RED ONE body.

[Leo Ticheli]

So if you make a RED s35 system and configure it with the components you want and later decide you want the FF35 sensor, you just swap out the brain. No "upgrade" path is necessary.

I'm sure you're not overlooking the other thing you have to, "just swap out;" the extra $28,000.00.

Perhaps in the world of A-list feature films this is merely chump change, but for many of us it's highly significant.

I'm mostly on board with the, "rendering obsolescence obsolete," mantra, but having to pay close to thirty grand more for the latest and greatest is daunting.

While the Mysterium X may be fine for my own commercial projects, I would think rental houses would be under tremendous pressure to have the Monstro sensor cameras. How many renters would refuse a small premium for 13+ stops of DR? Red One rental rates are already quite low; I can see the S35 Epics sitting lonely on the rental shelf.

Rather than a $28,000.00 Brain, how about a $7,000.00 (or so) replacement sensor? That would make me much happier about my trade in for the S35 Epic. I would consider that much more along the lines of obsolescence obsolete.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Häakon]

To that, I'd say it's a bit silly to be investing $28,000 in a 5K camera if 6K is what you really want. I think you can wait the 3 months or whatever it takes for the FF version to come out if that's the camera you need - and then you're only paying the additional $7,000.

Also, you would then be able to sell your original "brain" to another interested party - the $28,000 wouldn't be a loss. Their product offering line makes complete sense to me.

[Leo Ticheli]

Quite frankly, I believe the issue is much more fundamental than 5K vs. 6K, a difference which may prove to be more academic than visually tangible.

The major difference is the dynamic range. I suggest that 13+ stops of DR does indeed render the Mysterium and even the Mysterium X obsolete.

OK, please no flames for using the "O" word at RedUser. In the marketplace who would opt for 11+ stops of DR when 13+ stops of DR is available?

What difference in rental rates would there be for a full package if the only difference was one $7,000.00 more expensive item. Chicken feed. This affects owner/operators as well since our camera rates are similar to rental house rates and our clients tend to demand the best equipment.

I have a bad feeling that the S35 Epic Brains will be a very low demand item when the Monstro sensor Brains are available. That means low resale price to offset the cost of a new FF Epic.

So why not wait for the FF Epic to trade in? Because I have low confidence that it will appear just three months after the S35. As they say, things change; count on it.

I guess I'd be happier if there were no Mysterium X option for Epic, unless the actual delivery of Monstro is much longer than hoped for. It just seems to me that Scarlet should be all Mysterium X and Epic should be all Monstro.

I'll continue to wrestle with this dilemma for several months, all the while enjoying the hell out of my Red One, until we learn more.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Deanan]

Quite frankly, I believe the issue is much more fundamental than 5K vs. 6K, a difference which may prove to be more academic than visually tangible.

The major difference is the dynamic range. I suggest that 13+ stops of DR does indeed render the Mysterium and even the Mysterium X obsolete.

Leo


For PL shooting, one could make the analogy that S35 is to 3 perf as FF35 is to 4 perf.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

In the marketplace who would opt for 11+ stops of DR when 13+ stops of DR is available?

Leo

Currently people are opting for 10 stops (i.e. RED) when they could be getting 15 (i.e. film).

That is why we will pay more for Monstro...and thus charge a higher rental.

[Michael Lindsay]

I agree with Leo.

I would much rather that the S35 version dump the 5.6 micron 5k chip for a 6 micron 13+ stop chip. (I don't care about the spatial rez loss)

I'm struggling to imagine many people (unless a specific job forces the upgrade) not waiting for the FF35. Even if they only ever use it with a PL mount and a S35 centre cut. I will only 'not' wait to upgrade both our Reds if I suspect the extra wait is much more than 3months.

I remember when the uncompressed option got dropped because nobody put thier money down. Maybe the same will happen with S35?

Michael

[C.H.Haskell]

I would wait for the FF35 leo...cause as you mentioned, eventually you will want to upgrade and thats 28k for new brain so if we are really just talking months apart here then bite the bullet now, much less a blow then later.

For me FF35 is a logical choice cause I like (and am spoiled) with all the options R1 has given, everyone is a different kind of shooter and the more versatile, and more options my camera has then the more pleased I can make myself and those I work with. Monstro is being pushed for 09 according to RED and I want to think they can do it...in the meantime, we have R1 to keep us busy and save bank for FF35. Happy shooting.

[Häakon]

I agree with your reasoning in preferring the ff35, Leo. I just don't understand why you'd buy the s35 version with the intention of buying the ff35 version down the line.

Contrary to some, I do think the s35 version will work for a lot of people. You're happy with your R1 images right now, right? That s35 camera is going to be higher res, PL-mount formatted, have better dynamic range, way more fps, and only cost $10,000 (with trade-in) when it drops. That's an awfully tempting offer for a lot of people, and $7,000 isn't something to scoff at... at least to me.

Yes, the ff35 version will likely have the superior chip. And if you can afford it, that's the one to get - especially since you can still use it with your PL lenses (albeit cropped). But this whole upgrade nonsense between the s35 and ff35 is just silly to me. Use your RED one until the ff35 debuts and be done with it. You wouldn't buy a 2008 model car knowing that the 2009 model is coming and demand some sort of upgrade path. You either sell it at a loss and buy the new one or you wait like a civilized human being and get the 2009 model when it's ready. Does that not seem like the reasonable and logical way to look at this? :-)

[Adam C Lubkin]

I agree with your reasoning in preferring the ff35, Leo. I just don't understand why you'd buy the s35 version with the intention of buying the ff35 version down the line.

Contrary to some, I do think the s35 version will work for a lot of people. You're happy with your R1 images right now, right? That s35 camera is going to be higher res, PL-mount formatted, have better dynamic range, way more fps, and only cost $10,000 (with trade-in) when it drops. That's an awfully tempting offer for a lot of people, and $7,000 isn't something to scoff at... at least to me.

Yes, the ff35 version will likely have the superior chip. And if you can afford it, that's the one to get - especially since you can still use it with your PL lenses (albeit cropped). But this whole upgrade nonsense between the s35 and ff35 is just silly to me.

It would be silly if we were talking about Sony or Panasonic, but Red has a history of talking about sensor upgrades so I don't see how it's out of line to bring it up for discussion. I think it would be out of line to demand it or even expect it. But to inquire about it? I don't really think so.

[Häakon]

It would be silly if we were talking about Sony or Panasonic, but Red has a history of talking about sensor upgrades so I don't see how it's out of line to bring it up for discussion. I think it would be out of line to demand it or even expect it. But to inquire about it? I don't really think so.
Oh, absolutely. I just think they've already addressed it. The top of their new Epic/Scarlet release says this:

"As Mysterium technology advances, both Scarlet and Epic can be upgraded simply by purchasing a new "brain." Not a whole new camera."

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Adam C Lubkin]

Oh, absolutely. I just think they've already addressed it. The top of their new Epic/Scarlet release says this:

"As Mysterium technology advances, both Scarlet and Epic can be upgraded simply by purchasing a new "brain." Not a whole new camera."

Seems pretty clear to me.

Could be, but it's a new approach and some of us are stuck in the past.

[Adam C Lubkin]

Waiting longer for FF35 also means more free time with R1 . It's very generous of Jim to let us wait and choose which Epic to trade in for (beyond the original generosity of offering the full trade-in). People just want to know what all their options are, I think, and we're all trying to sort through all the new information.

[Häakon]

Fair enough. And I agree that some are stuck in the past. :-) Change can be difficult to swallow sometimes, but I think the big picture that RED is presenting here is awfully impressive. Maybe they will offer some sort of swap-out option, who knows. I just think that if you're set on buying the FF35, there isn't much point in buying the S35 and trying to figure out how you're going to get rid of it in a few months, whether that be an upgrade from jim, selling it on craigslist, or using it as a doorstop. But that's just my opinion.

[Adam C Lubkin]

It is very impressive indeed.

[Adam C Lubkin]

Oh, absolutely. I just think they've already addressed it. The top of their new Epic/Scarlet release says this:

"As Mysterium technology advances, both Scarlet and Epic can be upgraded simply by purchasing a new "brain." Not a whole new camera."

Seems pretty clear to me.

Looking at the brochure again, and at the description of the "sensor/electronics modules", I'm inclined to agree with you. It does seem pretty clear.

So much new info to take in...

[Häakon]

No problem at all... this, I believe, is where a discussion board forum can prove to be both very helpful and effective. :-) Your posts were very respectful and mature... and sometimes it's good just to talk this stuff out.

That being said, I have no doubts that things will change several times over before these cameras get around to shipping - so I'm assuming nothing! :P

[Andrae Palmer]

To that, I'd say it's a bit silly to be investing $28,000 in a 5K camera if 6K is what you really want. I think you can wait the 3 months or whatever it takes for the FF version to come out if that's the camera you need - and then you're only paying the additional $7,000.

Also, you would then be able to sell your original "brain" to another interested party - the $28,000 wouldn't be a loss. Their product offering line makes complete sense to me.

True... unless you look at the cost of selling the S35 brain used. There by working with the camera for a few months while waiting on the FF35.

[Jim Exton]

Oh, absolutely. I just think they've already addressed it. The top of their new Epic/Scarlet release says this:

"As Mysterium technology advances, both Scarlet and Epic can be upgraded simply by purchasing a new "brain." Not a whole new camera."

Seems pretty clear to me.

It isn't pretty clear to me yet. But I am due for an eye exam soon.

In the brochure, they also say: "Instead you can upgrade individual modules, and..."

I read that as being different than: you can upgrade to another module. (although you can do that as well)

And under the Sensor/Module listing, they mention: five sizes.

To me this implies that that S35 module you bought can be upgraded with the new Monstro, and a couple years down the road, the new Whatever sensor. All within the S35 size of course.

If you want to move to a different size, yes, you will have to buy that new size outright. And like your previous size, this new size is also upgradeable.

Who knows? This is just how I read it. We will know more soon enough.

[Jannard]

With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor. Epics have a much more complex electronics package and heat management system, hence the larger box. We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor.

Jim

[david farland]

Jim,
What do I do with the old Epic S35 sensor?

The FF35 ($35K) comes out 6 months after the S35 body/sensor.
Do I pay another $35K for the FF35 six months after and sell the S35 on eBay?

D

[Jim Exton]

Well, that takes care of that question. Haakon called it right.

[david farland]

I'd hang on there son. I suspect we haven't heard all from the big fella yet.
I'd be surprised if it's that simple, so that he'd let an upgrade step/opportunity slip by.
D

[Jannard]

You could always buy a Sony F35 (same sensor size as EPIC S35 but doesn't shoot 100fps) and then have no upgrade path and spend $200-300K.

What are your other FF35 options in the industry? How cheap do you want them to be?

Seems to me that we have released some industry stunning options. It is not our job to make sure every one of our customers can afford every option. It just isn't possible.

Jim

[NZ1]

I totally agree, Scarlet should be all Mysterium X and Epic should be all Monstro


Quite frankly, I believe the issue is much more fundamental than 5K vs. 6K, a difference which may prove to be more academic than visually tangible.

The major difference is the dynamic range. I suggest that 13+ stops of DR does indeed render the Mysterium and even the Mysterium X obsolete.

OK, please no flames for using the "O" word at RedUser. In the marketplace who would opt for 11+ stops of DR when 13+ stops of DR is available?

What difference in rental rates would there be for a full package if the only difference was one $7,000.00 more expensive item. Chicken feed. This affects owner/operators as well since our camera rates are similar to rental house rates and our clients tend to demand the best equipment.

I have a bad feeling that the S35 Epic Brains will be a very low demand item when the Monstro sensor Brains are available. That means low resale price to offset the cost of a new FF Epic.

So why not wait for the FF Epic to trade in? Because I have low confidence that it will appear just three months after the S35. As they say, things change; count on it.

I guess I'd be happier if there were no Mysterium X option for Epic, unless the actual delivery of Monstro is much longer than hoped for. It just seems to me that Scarlet should be all Mysterium X and Epic should be all Monstro.

Leo

[Gunleik Groven]

With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor. Epics have a much more complex electronics package and heat management system, hence the larger box. We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor.

Jim

So going the S-35 -->> FF35 route means replacing the whole box?

Just clearifying here...

In that case, I think I hear Leo loud and clear :)

[Sidney L. Plaut]

remember that Jim has mentioned theres a free sensor upgrade for Epic (maybe its changed, but i dont think so). that should mean Monstro for
Epic S35.

As regard to FF, I know nothing about it (still land). But can you even realistically pull focus if you shoot under low light situations? f1.4..2.8 do i dare mention tele lenses in that regard?

but we might aswell come clean- we all want an Epic,ever since we heard the name..:) There goes my Audi for sure. Thanks jim.

[FMG battery]

I totally agree, Scarlet should be all Mysterium X and Epic should be all Monstroit should be even (much) more protective rather than productive.. :sad:

[Florian Stadler]

Another thing to consider:

FF35 = lesser depth of field
= more light or more out of focus shots
Isn't FF35 meant to be for still photographers? (DSCMC)
Vistavision has existed for many years, yet it's only used for visual effects plates.

What I'm personally missing is simplicity. Simplicity with a purpose is what I was hoping for and while the new lineup at first look tries to please everybody and all, what's missing is simplicity and singular vision. I think it will come back once an actual product is released, but I'm an optimist.

[Roberto B]

Another thing to consider:

FF35 = lesser depth of field
= more light or more out of focus shots
Isn't FF35 meant to be for still photographers? (DSCMC)
Vistavision has existed for many years, yet it's only used for visual effects plates.

What I'm personally missing is simplicity. Simplicity with a purpose is what I was hoping for and while the new lineup at first look tries to please everybody and all, what's missing is simplicity and singular vision. I think it will come back once an actual product is released, but I'm an optimist.agreed.. but you can always crop to a windowed gate for same S35 DOF.. add your PL glass and have better dynamic range..

[Hans von Sonntag]

Florian, what you are missing here is the announced ability of Epic to handle virtually any format until you reach the specs of the sensor.

This means an Epic FF35 will work nicely with PL glas in a 4:3 ratio when slightly cropped plus the extended DR of 2 stops which we all know is a hugh step.

So, if those capabilies are vital for you, you will wait until the Epic FF35 is out and until then keep shooting with your old RedOne, UNLESS you are Mark or other facilities which are able to reach the ROI minus the expected loss of an used Epic S35 in the market in 6 months or so.

This will surely not work for me. I don't care actually, the RedOne is working very well for me. There are only two things i like to see:

1. DR close to film

2. Lighter and more ergonomic formfactor

Hence Epic FF35 is the cam I'm after.

Hans

[david farland]

Jim,
I'm saying I think there's a flaw in the upgrade path as you're virtually telling me as a RedOne owner to sit out on a S35 upgrade (28K) and wait for the FF35($35K-17K) solution.
Buying into the Epic market for an extra 1 stop for six months and hoping to sell it come Epic FF35 time isn't presenting me with a smart business option particularly when you're providing a RedOne sensor upgrade.

I'm confused!!
D

[FMG battery]

don't be.. you forgot to add.. red is here for making money.. it's not a charity.. loooooooool

[Pawel Achtel]

With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor. Epics have a much more complex electronics package and heat management system, hence the larger box. We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor.

Jim

I take one needs more than just a "brain" to shoot and record 100fps with Epic. How much will the other modules cost?

What are high speed recording options for Epic and how much are they?

[Ramesh Jai]

It would have been a no brainer for me if the Epic S35 had the DR of the FF35. Can't we have that Jim?

[david farland]

. red is here for making money..

No they're not...!!
They're a bunch of smart fellas selling excellent ideas/designs at a good price....thru a smart marketing strategy.
I'm simply pointing out an area of that strategy I feel is a bit weak.
D

[Deanan]

I take one needs more than just a "brain" to shoot and record 100fps with Epic. How much will the other modules cost?

What are high speed recording options for Epic and how much are they?

Pricing for flash media is hard to predict that far in advance. Since you aren't actually buying the cameras today, it really makes sense to look at the details closer to when the cameras are shipping.

[Evin Grant]

I think a can of worms may have been opened here. We know delivery dates change, "Count on it" so the real question is how long is that likely to be? They've had both success and failure here so it really comes down to the difference in delivery between the S35 and FF 35 Epics. We all know that a certain number of us can probably make the investment in the S35 version work it's self off by the time the FF ships, but would still prefer to just buy the FF first. The reason is simple, there isn't anything the S35 Epic can do that the FF can't and better and the $7000 price difference is negligible to most considering the upgrade. If the wait is truly a few months then the FF is the clear winner. If it's 6 then you may be able to make your money back in time to get a FF but your trade in is used up and the 2nd hand market for your S35 Epic is saturated by guys trying to do the same thing. It may still be worth it but it's a gamble.

The more conservative option would be to just shoot your R1 till the FF is available.
That's also a gamble but at least you're still shooting and your Epic is the one you'll stick with.

If I had my way financially I'd get the 645 Epic. But who knows what the future holds :greedy:

[David Mullen ASC]

So it seems that if you want to use PL glass on the Epic 6K FF35 camera, you'd basically be cropping down to S35, from 36mm wide to 24mm wide, so 6K essentially becomes 4K.

Which is OK I guess considering the other advantages of the Monstro sensor (16-bit, more dynamic range) but otherwise, I'd prefer that the 6K sensor was S35 in size because then I can use PL glass for a 6K image.

I don't relish using still camera lenses for movie production, not to mention that with the effective 1.5 stops shallower depth of field with an FF35 sensor, you're talking about a 6K image when shot at f/2.8 being more like shooting S35 at a f/1.4-2.0 split in terms of effective depth of field -- so less depth of field, more critical focus and extra sharpness combined with using still camera lenses not designed for cinema-style focus-pulling. Sounds like a challenge. Doable, but not preferable. Which is why I wish there would be an Epic with a 6K Monstro sensor that was S35 in size. Then I could shoot 6K RAW and get a better 4K RGB image while using the best PL glass I could find.

[Evin Grant]

You still up david?

My calculation (Not Red's!) puts an S35 crop of the FF Monstro at 4.75K, so better than the R1 and pretty close to a measurable 4K (3.7). I don't see there really being a huge difference in useable resolution between that and 6K for a 4K finish. The real advantage of the FF sensor besides the DR is full aperture anamorphic! Now that should get you close to your 6K measurable figure no?

[Pawel Achtel]

So it seems that if you want to use PL glass on the Epic 6K FF35 camera, you'd basically be cropping down to S35, from 36mm wide to 24mm wide, so 6K essentially becomes 4K.

Which is OK I guess considering the other advantages of the Monstro sensor (16-bit, more dynamic range) but otherwise, I'd prefer that the 6K sensor was S35 in size because then I can use PL glass for a 6K image.

I don't relish using still camera lenses for movie production, not to mention that with the effective 1.5 stops shallower depth of field with an FF35 sensor, you're talking about a 6K image when shot at f/2.8 being more like shooting S35 at a f/1.4-2.0 split in terms of effective depth of field -- so less depth of field, more critical focus and extra sharpness combined with using still camera lenses not designed for cinema-style focus-pulling. Sounds like a challenge. Doable, but not preferable. Which is why I wish there would be an Epic with a 6K Monstro sensor that was S35 in size. Then I could shoot 6K RAW and get a better 4K RGB image while using the best PL glass I could find.

David, 16mm MP will cover 30mm wide frame at 5k in Scope (1:2.40), longer Master Primes will cover full FF35 at 6k.

There may be other PL lenses that will cover full FF35.

[Emanuel A.]

You still up david?

My calculation (Not Red's!) puts an S35 crop of the FF Monstro at 4.75K, so better than the R1 and pretty close to a measurable 4K (3.7). I don't see there really being a huge difference in useable resolution between that and 6K for a 4K finish. The real advantage of the FF sensor besides the DR is full aperture anamorphic! Now that should get you close to your 6K measurable figure no?Well... Roughly, 24mm is 2/3 of 36mm, as well, 4K is 2/3 of 6K. What's the basis of your measures, Evin?

Apart the DR, on the 2:1 anamorphic coverage in full mode, I agree with you. It will push anyone above the 4K line.

[David Mullen ASC]

Yes, I can see the advantage of the FF35 sensor for anamorphic lenses, since the sensor is 24mm tall -- closer to the 18mm height of the 4-perf 35mm frame used by anamorphic, rather than the 13mm height of the RED ONE sensor.

Yes, I'm up late -- I just got back from work tonight... now it's 4AM in the morning, time to go to bed. We call it a "Fraturday" shoot on the set, when you work so long on a Friday that you wrap on Saturday morning, cutting into your weekend off time.

[Stephen Webb]

Which is why I wish there would be an Epic with a 6K Monstro sensor that was S35 in size. Then I could shoot 6K RAW and get a better 4K RGB image while using the best PL glass I could find.

Whilst agreeing with you in principal, my assumption (careful...) is that the DR and S/N benefits of Monstro are achievable in part because of the bigger pixel size. If they were to scale down to S35 size whilst maintaining the same resolution I imagine it would take a fair hit in terms of noise and latitude.

If you look at the Mysterium-X, they've made some improvement over the DR and S/N characteristics of the current sensor whilst keeping pixel size the same. The extra resolution seems to derive from making the sensor physically bigger. How this matches up to the imagining circle of 35mm PL lenses I'm unsure.

[Deanan]

Whilst agreeing with you in principal, my assumption (careful...) is that the DR and S/N benefits of Monstro are achievable in part because of the bigger pixel size. If they were to scale down to S35 size whilst maintaining the same resolution I imagine it would take a fair hit in terms of noise and latitude.

If you look at the Mysterium-X, they've made some improvement over the DR and S/N characteristics of the current sensor whilst keeping pixel size the same. The extra resolution seems to derive from making the sensor physically bigger. How this matches up to the imagining circle of 35mm PL lenses I'm unsure.

It's a balancing act between pixel size, resolution, dynamic range, etc.
Both S35 and FF35 are the way they are because that was the balance of all the variables. We're offer both because some people will prefer one balance of the other.

[Emanuel A.]

Yes, I can see the advantage of the FF35 sensor for anamorphic lenses, since the sensor is 24mm tall -- closer to the 18mm height of the 4-perf 35mm frame used by anamorphic, rather than the 13mm height of the RED ONE sensor.
3:2 > 4:3 instead 16:9 < 4:3 ratio for sensor optimization purposes including full 2:1 anamorphic lenses coverage.

No more 1.33x anamorphic glass hypothesis. :sorcerer:

[Adam C Lubkin]

With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor. Epics have a much more complex electronics package and heat management system, hence the larger box. We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor.

Jim

Thanks for clearing this up, Jim.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

David, 16mm MP will cover 30mm wide frame at 5k in Scope (1:2.40), longer Master Primes will cover full FF35 at 6k.

There may be other PL lenses that will cover full FF35.

Hi Pawel,

Are you saying that from 18mm and longer, the Master Primes would cover the full FF35 at 6K?

Sounds like a lot of love (expensive love).

Are you guys realizing how the FF35 Scarlet (12'000$) is the perfect backup to the FF35 Epic.
It Also can be used as a B camera if you need the high frame rate only for A camera.

Emmanuel

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I am not the only person to beileve Master Primes will not cover FF35. Claudio Mirandea had trouble finding lenses to cover the Dalsa's larger sensor.

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/dalsa.html

Stephen

Edit It actually portholes within 31mm S35 image circle!


Hi Pawel,

Are you saying that from 18mm and longer, the Master Primes would cover the full FF35 at 6K?

Sounds like a lot of love (expensive love).

Are you guys realizing how the FF35 Scarlet (12'000$) is the perfect backup to the FF35 Epic.
It Also can be used as a B camera if you need the high frame rate only for A camera.

Emmanuel

[Nik Manning]

Ok maybe this is obvious but maybe the S35 epic should be removed. Reduce the price of the FF35 Epic to about $31000 and I think most RED customers will be happy.

The customers who came from prosumer cameras to get a Red One should just get a FF35 Scarlet. The Red One owners who came from the professional camera world would get the Epics. Seems pretty simple to me. Just scrap the $28,000 Epic which should reduce manufacturing cost to maybe bring the FF35 Epic down to $31000.

[Bing Bailey]

I think the options are great as is

[Tom Lowe]

FF35 makes the most sense to me.

[Stephen Williams]

FF35 makes the most sense to me.

Hi Tom,

But it makes very little sense to me, when I have a budget to spend I want to use Cooke S4's end of story.

Stephen

[Pawel Achtel]

Hi,

I am not the only person to beileve Master Primes will not cover FF35. Claudio Mirandea had trouble finding lenses to cover the Dalsa's larger sensor.

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/dalsa.html

Stephen

Edit It actually portholes within 31mm S35 image circle!

Stephen,

It means it will accomodate full 5k, 30mm wide frame in 2.40:1 aspect ratio on FF35. You can't get more on Epic S35.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Hi Tom,

But it makes very little sense to me, when I have a budget to spend I want to use Cooke S4's end of story.

Stephen

If you consider 13+ vs 11+ and 16bit vs 12bit it sort of makes sens don't you think?

Emmanuel

[Tom Lowe]

Hi Tom,

But it makes very little sense to me, when I have a budget to spend I want to use Cooke S4's end of story.

Stephen

Fine, go ahead and use them on the FF35 Epic with a PL mount.

[HD Hildebrand]

As we always hear - everything changes. Perhaps these are all feelers to see how the market reacts. FF35 frame is not an aspect ratio for theatrical release and I don't think you can compare it to 4-perf either - it's more of an IMAX aspect ratio. Perhaps it is also good for anamorphic, but anyone else going theatrical or HD, the S35 is much more practical.

As Jim mentioned, "We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor." My personal vote would be dump the FF35, put the resources and time into S35 and dedicate a Monstro and/or Monstro-like latitude to Epic S35.

Keep in mind that the Red industry and Red rental business would function much smoother if there was some sort of standardization. Imagine renting a camera to match your camera or several other cameras and nothing had the same frame size, latitude or frame speed options (this is something Red One does have going for it). Some will be disappointed, some will be left out of the rental market, and production companies that are considering Red for their pictures will be even more confused then they already are. Sure we can spend more time trying to educate, but I'd rather just shoot.

[Jim Exton]

Ok maybe this is obvious but maybe the S35 epic should be removed. Reduce the price of the FF35 Epic to about $31000 and I think most RED customers will be happy.

The customers who came from prosumer cameras to get a Red One should just get a FF35 Scarlet. The Red One owners who came from the professional camera world would get the Epics. Seems pretty simple to me. Just scrap the $28,000 Epic which should reduce manufacturing cost to maybe bring the FF35 Epic down to $31000.

I agree with this 100%, even if they kept the price of the FF35 the same.

[david farland]

Are you guys realizing how the FF35 Scarlet (12'000$) is the perfect backup to the FF35 Epic.
It Also can be used as a B camera if you need the high frame rate only for A camera. Emmanuel

Yes, this is an excellent idea. $12k backup (or B cam) for a $35k Epic. However the data compression will be different between Scarlet/Epic which might make the option of spending $12k on an occassional camera unattractive. Guess it will depend on how cropped 4K/RC42 compression on the Scarlet compares with RCXXX on the Epic.

As for the S35 Epic, I can't see Jim (hope i'm wrong) releasing the Epic S35 at the same time as the RedOne upgrade.
And it'll depend how close together these events are and how much the R1 upgrade costs, to whether the Epic S35 is value or not. And then you've got to sell it 6 months later at probably a bargain at the same time the SS35 is being released.
Personally I think it's a bit of a lame duck.
Dave

ps:
My personal vote would be dump the FF35, put the resources and time into S35 and dedicate a Monstro and/or Monstro-like latitude to Epic S35.
I suggest they'll need the Monstro technology for 13+ stops.
Might as well beef up the sensor area/data capture to serve S35 & FF35.
either way it sounds like people want to merge both camera.
Jim...are you listening?
D

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Yes, this is an excellent idea. $12k backup (or B cam) for a $35k Epic. However the data compression will be different between Scarlet/Epic which might make the option of spending $12k on an occassional camera unattractive. Guess it will depend on how cropped 4K/RC42 compression on the Scarlet compares with RCXXX on the Epic.

D

From what I gathered from Jim and Ted, RedCode225 is not very differrent from RedCode 42 in terms of compression.
The higher number has more to do with higher framerates.

I'd like some light being shed on this.

Emmanuel

[david farland]

The thing is presently RC36 handles 4K/10+ stops/12bit.
Epic (4K/PL) SS35 will deliver 4K/13+stop/16bit.
Not sure how the 13+stop/16bit may affect this. Someone correct me but I thought 12bit linear data maxed out at 12stops...forget?
either way if you only use 2/3 of the 24MB/6K sensor, that's still double the data used in the present RedOne /RC36/4K setup.

As side from the Scarlet backup issue, higher bandwidth will be needed both for greater sensor areas as well as framerates.
Dave,

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Well if you allow me, I would tend to agree with you, Mate… :)

Emmanuel

[Daniel Browning]

Perhaps these are all feelers to see how the market reacts.

Yeah, when Jarred posted that picture of all the RED employees throwing the party with the forums up on the projector, I thought, "now *THAT* is a company that gets excited about market research!".

Appearances to the contrary, I think this was something else. RED came up with the most outlandish, incredible ideas possible. Things that no one could believe will ever be possible, like FF35, 645, 617, and 2/3" RAW for $3K. Then announced them just to measure the feedback.

Jim was just trying to see if, even when faced with the most ambitious ideas imaginable, we would still find something to complain about.

Well, jokes over, Jim. Now can you tell us what you're *really* announcing? 2/3" DVCPRO for $10,000? 1/3" HDV for $4,000?

[Poi Boy]

I would prefer the ff35 maybe even 645 but who knows how things will develop in the next few months. Specs change quickly at Red, it is just too soon tell. Especially if they throw in a speed brain into the mix. Exciting stuff !
Aloha
-A

[Matt Uhry]

I agree with most of the posts here, the S35mm Mysterium does not make sense to me with the FF35 Monstro 3-9 months away. In most cases I'll still be shooting on PL mount lenses and using an image area less than 18x24mm - Super 35, 4 perf. wasting a bit of that 24x36 Monstro...

The S35 Epic also dilutes the cachet of the Epic product line, if you are not overcranking, It's a bit too close to the Red 1 which is in great oversupply on the rental market here in LA. It's confusing enough to explain the difference between our film style set up camera with all the custom goodies and the producers poker buddy's camera that's barely been un-boxed and never been properly set up.

With S35 Epics that are quie close in features to R1's floating around out there Epics won't be that Epic at least until the FF35. Confusing. Bad for business, "Is this the new Epic or the old one ?"

Just speaking personally from my business perspective, as a current Red owner I wish they would entirely kill the S35mm Epic version and release the FF35 at least 6 months before any large sensor S35 or FF35 Scarlets, it would keep the R1 clearly at the top of the camera dogpile until there was truly undeniable upgrade available, which I will gladly pay big bucks for, because I expect to make bigger bucks with it.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Stephen Pruitt]

I've been following this with great interest, and here's what I see:

Forget 5K or 6K unless you love to crop. There are not now, nor will there be for many years, any viable delivery systems beyond 4K. Indeed, we don't even have 4K delivery systems now, so the gain in resolution is almost a fools game. 4K is the clear sweet spot. The question now becomes, what other chip characteristics can we get on a 4K chip of S35 size?

There would seem to me to be no real use for the FF35 EXCEPT for the fact that it is supposed to have two more stops of dynamic range. That's a huge plus, of course, but that plus comes at a cost. . . a lot of extra money paid for the inability to really use all of that chip surface with existing cine glass.

I think that what most people really want, and the market would positively go wild about, would be a 4K, 13-stop/16-bit chip in the S35 size. That would be the ultimate sweet spot.

Since we already have the S35-sized RED One, can anyone tell me, with any authority, what the specs of the upgraded RED One are supposed to be? I'd be more than happy to pay a goodly amount of money to just get our two REDs up to 13 stops, and forget any additional resolution.

Stephen

[Tom Lowe]

I think that what most people really want, and the market would positively go wild about, would be a 4K, 13-stop/16-bit chip in the S35 size. That would be the ultimate sweet spot.

No, it wouldn't, Stephen. 4K Bayer-pattern cameras are not 4K of real resolution. Many of us believe that 4K will be the next 1080p within about 10 years. If you believe 4K will replace 1080p as the new "gold standard" for display, then you need at least a 5K camera to shoot it, and even better if that camera is 6K - like FF35 Scarlet and Epic.

I am starting to agree with people who are saying Red should concentrate on the FF35 Monstro. That's the camera everyone is really going to want. The increased DR and 16bit are going to be huge advancements.

On the Scarlet side, FF35 is the only viable option for people who need 1080p/2K legit overcranking.

My guess is that once people really think long and hard about this, they will want to go with FF35.

[Tom Lowe]

I agree with most of the posts here, the S35mm Mysterium does not make sense to me with the FF35 Monstro 3-9 months away. In most cases I'll still be shooting on PL mount lenses and using an image area less than 18x24mm - Super 35, 4 perf. wasting a bit of that 24x36 Monstro...

The S35 Epic also dilutes the cachet of the Epic product line, if you are not overcranking, It's a bit too close to the Red 1 which is in great oversupply on the rental market here in LA. It's confusing enough to explain the difference between our film style set up camera with all the custom goodies and the producers poker buddy's camera that's barely been un-boxed and never been properly set up.

With S35 Epics that are quie close in features to R1's floating around out there Epics won't be that Epic at least until the FF35. Confusing. Bad for business, "Is this the new Epic or the old one ?"

Just speaking personally from my business perspective, as a current Red owner I wish they would entirely kill the S35mm Epic version and release the FF35 at least 6 months before any large sensor S35 or FF35 Scarlets, it would keep the R1 clearly at the top of the camera dogpile until there was truly undeniable upgrade available, which I will gladly pay big bucks for.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Good post, Matt.

[Matt Uhry]

I've been following this with great interest, and here's what I see:

Forget 5K or 6K unless you love to crop. There are not now, nor will there be for many years, any viable delivery systems beyond 4K. Indeed, we don't even have 4K delivery systems now, so the gain in resolution is almost a fools game. 4K is the clear sweet spot. The question now becomes, what other chip characteristics can we get on a 4K chip of S35 size?

There would seem to me to be no real use for the FF35 EXCEPT for the fact that it is supposed to have two more stops of dynamic range. That's a huge plus, of course, but that plus comes at a cost. . . a lot of extra money paid for the inability to really use all of that chip surface with existing cine glass.

I think that what most people really want, and the market would positively go wild about, would be a 4K, 13-stop/16-bit chip in the S35 size. That would be the ultimate sweet spot.

Since we already have the S35-sized RED One, can anyone tell me, with any authority, what the specs of the upgraded RED One are supposed to be? I'd be more than happy to pay a goodly amount of money to just get our two REDs up to 13 stops, and forget any additional resolution.

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

It's a bit of a stretch to call the current Red1 super 35mm. 4 perf Super 35mm is typically a 18x24mm image used area, plus about 10% look-around. The Red at 4k is 22.2x 12.6mm. It's dimensions sit right between Academy 1.85 and Academy 1.66, which is still totally cool and bad-ass etc., it's just not Super 35.

The Mysterium X was announced as 30mm x 15mm I think. A little bigger than the Mysterium, but it wont help much with 4:3 or 'Scope.

3-perf super is around 24x14mm.

The FF35 would be cool for many things, I've had a few EFX jobs where we would of benefited most from shooting a square format image 24x24mm if that was possible. ( looks like it will be ! )

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Joseph Ward]

I thought the new Brains will also take newer sensors for future upgrades?:unsure:

[Tom Lowe]

I thought the new Brains will also take newer sensors for future upgrades?:unsure:

No, I don't think so.

[Joseph Ward]

No, I don't think so.

Thanks Tom! I wonder what the sensor upgrades are going to cost on RedOnes?:)

This is why I got confused.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=247081&postcount=1

Since the brain is the sensor with electronics and such, it wouldn't make sense for an upgrade sensor capability. Maybe for Epic S35? :sarcasm:

[Matt Uhry]

No, I don't think so.

I think it was pretty explicitly stated that there will be no option of a Mysterium to Monstro sensor swap out. I think Mysterium to Mysterium X has been stated as being possible on your current Red1 body. Subject to change, looks BAD-ASS, et cetera, ad infinitum.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[I Bloom]

As we always hear - everything changes. Perhaps these are all feelers to see how the market reacts. FF35 frame is not an aspect ratio for theatrical release and I don't think you can compare it to 4-perf either - it's more of an IMAX aspect ratio. Perhaps it is also good for anamorphic, but anyone else going theatrical or HD, the S35 is much more practical.

As Jim mentioned, "We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor." My personal vote would be dump the FF35, put the resources and time into S35 and dedicate a Monstro and/or Monstro-like latitude to Epic S35.

Keep in mind that the Red industry and Red rental business would function much smoother if there was some sort of standardization. Imagine renting a camera to match your camera or several other cameras and nothing had the same frame size, latitude or frame speed options (this is something Red One does have going for it). Some will be disappointed, some will be left out of the rental market, and production companies that are considering Red for their pictures will be even more confused then they already are. Sure we can spend more time trying to educate, but I'd rather just shoot.

Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner!

However, just imagine the Red system in comparison to all of the many many possible cameras you can buy, SD, HD, HDV, P2, Phantom, F23 etc, etc. Can you really fault them for offering options...

IBloom

[Emmanuel Cambier]

I agree with most of the posts here, the S35mm Mysterium does not make sense to me with the FF35 Monstro 3-9 months away. In most cases I'll still be shooting on PL mount lenses and using an image area less than 18x24mm - Super 35, 4 perf. wasting a bit of that 24x36 Monstro...

The S35 Epic also dilutes the cachet of the Epic product line, if you are not overcranking, It's a bit too close to the Red 1 which is in great oversupply on the rental market here in LA. It's confusing enough to explain the difference between our film style set up camera with all the custom goodies and the producers poker buddy's camera that's barely been un-boxed and never been properly set up.

With S35 Epics that are quie close in features to R1's floating around out there Epics won't be that Epic at least until the FF35. Confusing. Bad for business, "Is this the new Epic or the old one ?"

Just speaking personally from my business perspective, as a current Red owner I wish they would entirely kill the S35mm Epic version and release the FF35 at least 6 months before any large sensor S35 or FF35 Scarlets, it would keep the R1 clearly at the top of the camera dogpile until there was truly undeniable upgrade available, which I will gladly pay big bucks for, because I expect to make bigger bucks with it.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com


Agreed 100%

Emmanuel

[Brook Willard]

I agree with most of the posts here, the S35mm Mysterium does not make sense to me with the FF35 Monstro 3-9 months away. In most cases I'll still be shooting on PL mount lenses and using an image area less than 18x24mm - Super 35, 4 perf. wasting a bit of that 24x36 Monstro...

The S35 Epic also dilutes the cachet of the Epic product line, if you are not overcranking, It's a bit too close to the Red 1 which is in great oversupply on the rental market here in LA. It's confusing enough to explain the difference between our film style set up camera with all the custom goodies and the producers poker buddy's camera that's barely been un-boxed and never been properly set up.

With S35 Epics that are quie close in features to R1's floating around out there Epics won't be that Epic at least until the FF35. Confusing. Bad for business, "Is this the new Epic or the old one ?"

Just speaking personally from my business perspective, as a current Red owner I wish they would entirely kill the S35mm Epic version and release the FF35 at least 6 months before any large sensor S35 or FF35 Scarlets, it would keep the R1 clearly at the top of the camera dogpile until there was truly undeniable upgrade available, which I will gladly pay big bucks for, because I expect to make bigger bucks with it.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Could not agree more.

[Deanan]

Could not agree more.

Now where'd we put the magic button that makes things come out six months early?

[Peter Majtan]

Now where'd we put the magic button that makes things come out six months early?

Right next to the one that makes RED cameras 10-times cheaper then competition... :w00t:

[Brook Willard]

Now where'd we put the magic button that makes things come out six months early?

It's between the "Easy" button and "Bullshit" button. I have both on my camera cart. :) [seems like a bad joke, but I actually do...]

[Emanuel A.]

Could not agree more.PM sent.

[david farland]

No need to worry Deanan. Redusers can swap places with Red employees and do it in a week! Bags Jim's job....
You guys can jump on the keyboards, crack the whip, spit venon & abuse...and tell us to drive the price down to $1.75c...and have it ready by next monday! The won't work straight off, but hey, neither did....screeeehhh.....hand brake!!

OK....the button....
Move back the idea the taking over the world with FF35 glass.
Concentrate on what you guys do well...come out with great innovative ideas that rock the market and sell like no other pro camera in history. Don't dilute this!!
Remove any deadwood gets in the way...Epic S35 as it sits now.

Can't say too much more because we haven't done the whole swappsie thing.
Dave,

[Pawel Achtel]

Looks like we have a concensus that Epic FF35 is the way to go.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Looks like we have a concensus that Epic FF35 is the way to go.

100%. I want the FF35 badly.

However ... I predict that Offhollywood will be shooting movies on the Epic S35 while hundreds kick and scream that the FF35 is ... more than three months after the FF35 ...

Just sayin ...

[Pawel Achtel]

100%. I want the FF35 badly.

However ... I predict that Offhollywood will be shooting movies on the Epic S35 while hundreds kick and scream that the FF35 is ... more than three months after the FF35 ...

Just sayin ...

hehehe, or hundreds will be waiting patiently for a few months until Offhollywood concludes testing of Epic...

Just sayin...:innocent:

[david farland]

Mark,
Nice if you can do that.
I guess your business model works paying $28k per camera for 1 stop/1K rez for a few months on a beta camera.
I just hope the other 5000 red camera owner don't play the 'left to die' card, two weeks after the S35 goes live, as they realise they can't afford to pay $28k for an incremental upgrade they were promised anyway. But still, admire your guts and I'm sure Jim will too!
D

[Leo Ticheli]

After the thrill over the plethora of promised offerings from Red, I've developed some doubts about the value of the Full-Frame options.

Why Full-Frame? For whom is this really useful? For motion pictures, it seems to me that there should be only 3 formats:

1. 3/4" for news/documentary, run and gun productions where smaller size and weight are paramount. This is a huge market segment with a ton of existing lenses ready to go to work.

2. Traditional S35MM for commercials and features. This has the depth of field that is esthetically pleasing and uses the lenses now in existence. This is a large market.

3. The 645. This is very specialized. For big screen features and applications where extremely shallow depth of field is desirable. Much more flexible than those huge IMAX cameras. I think this is a very small market. Very, very small.

Frankly, I don't see the new Full Frame Reds as being that viable for stills photographers; they are very expensive and probably not as highly refined as the mature products from Canon and Nikon. I'm certain that convergence will continue apace, but I have no idea how large this market is for the near term.

Let's face it, what we motion picture people really want is a S35MM Red with the Monstro sensor to enjoy the significantly greater dynamic range. I'll bet the great majority of us who are leaning toward the FF Epic are so inclined simply to get the Monstro, not the larger chip.

Admittedly, my head is still spinning over the Red offerings, but this is where I am at the moment. I think it helped to write it down...

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Mark Pugh]

what we motion picture people really want is a S35MM Red with the Monstro sensor to enjoy the significantly greater dynamic range.

It's clearly the most desirable sensor size and the monstro is the best sensor spec.

I'm wondering if it's less expensive and easier and quicker for red to buy off-the-shelf FF35 monstros than to manufacture S35ones, and that's the reason for the monstro only being available in the larger formats.
I can't think of another reason.

[Matt Uhry]

Now where'd we put the magic button that makes things come out six months early?

It would be nice, I'll press it a few time on that prime set...

Actually I was thinking just go a bit slow on shipping mass quantities of the S35 and FF35 scarlets... a first run of 100 and then a bit of a pause to see how it goes.....

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Leo Ticheli]

It's clearly the most desirable sensor size and the monstro is the best sensor spec.

I'm wondering if it's less expensive and easier and quicker for red to buy off-the-shelf FF35 monstros than to manufacture S35ones, and that's the reason for the monstro only being available in the larger formats.
I can't think of another reason.

That could well be a good guess. If so, another thought comes to mind; why produce the S35 version at all! Just for a lower price? Surely not; after all, given a choice at the rental house, who's going to save a tiny amount and give up the very superior Monstro DR?

I have a bad feeling that anyone who buys the S35 Epic is going to have a significantly less desirable camera.

When both are available, will any rental house will buy an S35?

Of course this is all just my opinion. All I really know how to do is make pretty pictures. Well, perhaps a couple of other things, but running a camera manufacturing company is not one of them. I do know what would suit my needs, however.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Mark Pugh]

When both are available, will any rental house will buy an S35?


Well, my other theory is:
The Mysterium X will be available earlier.
The only way Red thought they'd get people to buy them, was to not list an only slightly more expensive S35 monstro as being available a few months later.
And that's also why PL wasn't listed as an option as a mount on the monstros, although after a day of noise after the 13th Jarred said that PL wouldn't be a problem. Just a theory.

[Mark Pugh]

I'm not sure anyone's pointed out the S35 mysterium x will never do 5k in 16:9, even without any look-around area.
It's a 2:1 sensor.
The FF35 will be better for 16x9, even for PL mount 35 lenses.
The sensor area used for 16:9 could be wider, so you wouldn't need to drop resolution, even with the larger pixels.

Red should just ditch that S35 mysterium -X IMHO.
FF35 for me.

[Mark Pugh]

I predict that the S35 will be re-incarnated as a high speed camera.
In 16:9 it'd have less than half the pixel-count as the full frame of the FF35.
It should be able to go a fair whack faster.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Why Full-Frame? For whom is this really useful? For motion pictures, it seems to me that there should be only 3 formats:

Me and my VFX producing friends would disagree with you. :) I'm salivating over the EPIC FF35. Although for typical motion picture use, you are correct... I think the PL mount with S35 lenses will live on my EPIC FF35 most of the time.[/QUOTE]

[Mark Andersen]

It's clearly the most desirable sensor size and the monstro is the best sensor spec.

I'm wondering if it's less expensive and easier and quicker for red to buy off-the-shelf FF35 monstros than to manufacture S35ones, and that's the reason for the monstro only being available in the larger formats.
I can't think of another reason.

It seems that the Monstro has it's genesis in a DSLR thats why it's 24 x36 and why it is not yet available in S35. I agree that the FF35 seems like the best option today. I think that that larger format could give a nice athestetic with good SLR glass.

[Leo Ticheli]

Me and my VFX producing friends would disagree with you. :) I'm salivating over the EPIC FF35. Although for typical motion picture use, you are correct... I think the PL mount with S35 lenses will live on my EPIC FF35 most of the time.[/QUOTE]

I'm quite sure that bigger is definitely better for VFX; perhaps yet another reason that the S35 Reds should be abandoned altogether.

With the FF35, we have the best of both worlds.

I guess I'm ready for someone to make a convincing argument for the Epic S35. Yes, it's a bit less expensive, but over the life of the camera it's not a compelling advantage, especially compared to the potential loss of value down the road.

Nor is the few months earlier availability of the S35 a reason to go for it unless you are a booked solid house that can afford to have it sit on the shelf when the FF35 surpasses it. Not all of us can afford the luxury of going S35 then up to FF35 although Mark's idea of going with the S35 Scarlet as a temporary "upgrade" may have some merit.

I imagine a used S35 Scarlet would have some residual value to offset the cost or to serve as a backup body.

Wheeeeeeeeeeee...

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Tom Lowe]

If FF35 can shoot with PL/S35, then you get the best of both worlds, because you can always put FF35 lenses on it as well and have a high fps Vista Vision camera!

As far as reasons why anyone would want to shoot FF35, it's not just VFX. Take a look at Ford's Epic The Searchers, which was shot on Vista Vision.

The added DR of Monstro is vital as well.

Another factor to keep in mind is that on the Scarlet side, I believe the FF35 will be dominant (if current specs stay roughly the same), because the S35 Scarlet cannot overcrank legitimately like the FF35 can. This will affect the economies of scale and tip them in the favor of FF35.

With many people here seeming to coalesce behind FF35 now, the big question is: "What about FF35 lenses?"

[Poi Boy]

Hey Tom, What about the Red electronic lenses, I think they will be the way to go.
Aloha
-A

[Lauri Kettunen]

Leo, your comments raise a thought that what about if not only the sensor but also the "brain" of Red One could updated in the future?

In other words, if Red One could be updated as a 4K version of Epic S35 -say 100 fps in 4K and something like 200 fps in 2K or 3K-- and furthermore, if it were possible to get much shorter boot up time and perhaps also smaller power consumption by an upgrade, then perhaps I would not consider Epic at all.

Perhaps cost wise this would still not make sense and that's why it is not offered by Red.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Leo, your comments raise a thought that what about if not only the sensor but also the "brain" of Red One could updated in the future?

In other words, if Red One could be updated as a 4K version of Epic S35 -say 100 fps in 4K and something like 200 fps in 2K or 3K-- and furthermore, if it were possible to get much shorter boot up time and perhaps also smaller power consumption by an upgrade, then perhaps I would not consider Epic at all.

Perhaps cost wise this would still not make sense and that's why it is not offered by Red.

Fairly unlikely to hapen imho.

Emmanuel

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The RED One is going to be offered an upgrade to the Mysterium-X. We don't know any details of the upgrade yet and what other capabilities that my bring to the camera. Given that the sensors work best with underlying electronics which are tuned to that sensor, I'm betting the upgrade will bring more to the table than just a CMOS chip swap. I'm also not expecting the upgrade to be cheap... Just cheaper than outright buying a new camera.

[Tom Lowe]

Hey Tom, What about the Red electronic lenses, I think they will be the way to go.
Aloha
-A

I don't know about them. What's the story on that? Are they FF35?

[Poi Boy]

I don't really know anything other than what is in the 11-13 stuff but you have to believe that if red specs them for FF35 they are going to be awesome and stabilized to boot ! I would imagine built in birger mount sort of functionality, I hate waiting patiently.
Aloha
-A

[roryhinds]

What ever happened to the free upgrade from the X to Monstro Jim talked about when he announced Monstro?

I don't get why RED are trying to reinvent the wheel.
Post is post and the workflow for 4k is getting there.
2k post has a solid standard workflow that works really well and looks amazing projected.

We need a S35 sensor that gives us great 4k, be it 5k or 6k pixel count in camera
In post we need 4k max, anything over is not supported and unworkable.

The whole Epic S35 vs FF35 is not good as I think the average RED owner (not a rental business) would hold out for FF35 as the ROI isn't there.

I really don't like that my RED will be out dated so quickly and I'll have to buy a new "Brain" to keep up. I thought the whole ethos of RED was to avoid having to buy a new camera every few months.

I think RED have missed the point and the point is POST. There are established industries and you use the right tool for the job. Once the shoot has finished you need to work with the footage.

Are RED no longer a Digital Cinema company?
If you have to toss your old "Brain" for a new one to keep up why are the "Brains" so expensive? - It just seems like a waste.

I'm a owner/operator and my view and opinion will be different to a rental house. I'm simply not as busy as a rental house and my ROI is way way slower so my purchase decisions need to be sound.

I want higher resolution but the same physical size so I can use industry standard Cinema Glass and work with the footage I shoot in an industry standard way.

I'm disappointed with the non upgradeable "Brains".

[Brook Willard]

We need a S35 sensor that gives us great 4k, be it 5k or 6k pixel count in camera
In post we need 4k max, anything over is not supported and unworkable.


That's about all they appear to record in Super 35mm mode based on the sensor size and resolution math (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22249).

I do find it a little bit funny that calling the cameras "brains" kind of takes the sting away from buying new ones or replacements. They're really just full-on cameras... the accessories simply transfer from one camera body to the next. It's like buying a 435 with magazines and then eventually getting a 235 as well. Your 435 magazines and accessories will work with the 235... which is awesome... call it what you want but you just bought a whole new camera [not a "brain"]. :)

Replace "brain" with "camera" and it all starts to hurt a bit more.

That's why I'm just going to buy the FF35 and call it good. :)

[Michael Ragen]

IF everyone starts leaning towards the FF35, I vote to kill the S35 and make the FF35 a couple grand cheaper as they will be selling more of that model.

No one I've talked to personally is considering the S35. If the S35 were Monstro spec'ed they might be.

Personally I'm crossing my fingers for a lucky scratch ticket to get the 645...

[Craig Parkes]

I do find it a little bit funny that calling the cameras "brains" kind of takes the sting away from buying new ones or replacements. They're really just full-on cameras... the accessories simply transfer from one camera body to the next. It's like buying a 435 with magazines and then eventually getting a 235 as well. Your 435 magazines and accessories will work with the 235... which is awesome... call it what you want but you just bought a whole new camera [not a "brain"]. :)

Replace "brain" with "camera" and it all starts to hurt a bit more.

This is true for the film guys, and people with film backgrounds - but for video guys and, even Digital Cinema guys, this is obviously not the case historically.

Many times in video has there been technical increases in the chip side of things, but strange changes or compromises in in the rest of the cameras body or design to go along with the new technology that has made the upgrade in chip accompanied with a downgrade in other areas.

All too often do people in the electronics industry feel the sting of having to upgrade to a technology they need, but give up the previously available features on a model of the older technology that they WANTED, but did not get migrated across (because of cost/oversight/change of thinking by the electronics company, whatever.).

And, if all this means is that digital technology is catching up with film technology in terms of being a suitable, well catered for medium, isn't that really the whole point of RED?

[Pawel Achtel]

I wonder if this offer is still valid:


OK, I have had plenty of sleep.

RED Digital Cinema announces the development of "Monstro", the Mysterium® sensor of the future. "Monstro" is the sensor that that removes all limitations in current sensor technology. It is expected to arrive the end of 2010.

"Monstro" will be a free upgrade to Epic, which will ship standard with the Mysterium X sensor in 2009.

We fully understand that our customers want resolution, maximum speed, incredible dynamic range, and low light capability. "Monstro" represents the final frontier in the digital vs. film struggle.

The RED "Mysterium" sensor was a breakthrough that got the RED ONE on the map. Mysterium X takes RED to the next level. "Monstro" is the platform that surpasses all expectations. Sleep tight... the RED Sensor Team is awake.

Jim

[Emanuel A.]

IF everyone starts leaning towards the FF35, I vote to kill the S35 and make the FF35 a couple grand cheaper as they will be selling more of that model.
Economies of scale can bring a value-added (do not make confusion with VAT though) for all of us: provider and customers -- no one can live without the other side.

[Tom Lowe]

I wonder if this offer is still valid:

NO.

That was for the old Epic design. Completely irrelevant to the conversation today.

The bottom line is, if you want Monstro, wait for FF35. It will give you so many more options in the long term anyway. FF35 will be the king of the hill in digital cinema.

[Mark Pugh]

NO.

That was for the old Epic design. Completely irrelevant to the conversation today.


Why is it completely irrelevent, Tom?

I guess because monstro isn't being offered in the same size as the mysterium-x, which is an arbitrary decision, as Jim makes the sensors.

Anyway you're right - the FF35 is the way to go, and that's fine. The S35 mysterium-x will be a lemon when monstro is released.

[Tom Lowe]

Why is it completely irrelevent, Tom?

I guess because monstro isn't being offered in the same size as the mysterium-x, which is an arbitrary decision, as Jim makes the sensors.

Anyway you're right - the FF35 is the way to go, and that's fine. The S35 mysterium-x will be a lemon when monstro is released.

It's irrelevant because that post was made when Epic was a totally different kind of camera. Back then there was not a FF35 and S35, just one 5K Epic. Now, if you want Monstro, you simply order it and wait for it.

It's absurd to seriously think that Jim would sell an S35 Epic, then waste $10K giving people free upgrades to Monstro a few months later when they could have simply waited and ordered the Monstro. What is this, the Jim Jannard Charity Company?

I wish people would think before asking him for stuff like this when he has already been so generous.

[Pawel Achtel]

It's irrelevant because that post was made when Epic was a totally different kind of camera. Back then there was not a FF35 and S35, just one 5K Epic. Now, if you want Monstro, you simply order it and wait for it.

It's absurd to seriously think that Jim would sell an S35 Epic, then waste $10K giving people free upgrades to Monstro a few months later when they could have simply waited and ordered the Monstro. What is this, the Jim Jannard Charity Company?

I wish people would think before asking him for stuff like this when he has already been so generous.

I'm happy with the explanation, just wanted to clarify. I have no problem waiting for the FF35, which seems to be the most desired spec among all other choices.

[david farland]

Jim made the offer (in principal) to provide a free monstro upgrade to a mysterium-x Epic. Pretty simple statement. Nice guy, for sure, okay...too nice and in the same way Red has delivered far more than ever initially offered, then so the pendulum needs to swing back a little. Fair..no sweat!!
I can see his vision/designs for the support electronics for the S35 to have changed and won't (easily/cheaply) support the Monstro as he thought at the time
No one expects/expected or would hold him to it!

But here's the thing, maybe with the 'slight' negative reaction to the R1/S35/FF35 migration path, the upgrade path to the monstro can be lubricated some way and Red's principal of rendering obsolescence obselete can dodge a $28K bullet.

D

[Stephen Pruitt]

I just want a S35 Epic with Monstro dynamic range. Period.

Sadly, unless things change, that just ain't gonna happen.

Stephen

[Mark Pugh]

I wish people would think before asking him for stuff like this when he has already been so generous.

From what I see people aren't worried about upgrade paths so much as just having being able to have a monstro S35.

And Jim's thrown kerosene by denying there was ever an upgrade offered. Which I'm terribly afraid is BS.

The only way that the Epic S35 has been radically changed is that it is part of a system of user-defined customization, and that it has been down-graded to a mysterium-x only sensor size, DESPITE THE FACT THAT A S35 MONSTRO WOULD BE THE REAL SWEET SPOT IN THE RANGE.

Tom - chill out - most of these people you are shrieking at love Jim as much as you, and are stating they'll be happy with the FF35 monstro. They are just pushing for that option that they were looking forward to, which would give the best results for the best price, on the format they shoot on most.
Raising it as an issue seems mighty sensible to me.

[Tom Lowe]

Mark, where I'm coming from is, we saw this happen last time, and it really ticked off Red and Jim and almost caused him to leave the boards for good.

I have no problem with people wanting Monstro in S35. That's a legit request. What I find upsetting are the very small minority who are somehow insinuating that Jim should "honor" the Monstro upgrade thing that is totally old news, something he was talking about related to a totally different, old Epic camera design, before this DSMC system even came along.

[Jannard]

And Jim's thrown kerosene by denying there was ever an upgrade offered. Which I'm terribly afraid is BS.



Please show me...

Jim

[Mark Pugh]

Mark, where I'm coming from is, we saw this happen last time, and it really ticked off Red and Jim and almost caused him to leave the boards for good.

I have no problem with people wanting Monstro in S35. That's a legit request. What I find upsetting are the very small minority who are somehow insinuating that Jim should "honor" the Monstro upgrade thing that is totally old news, something he was talking about related to a totally different, old Epic camera design, before this DSMC system even came along.

Tom, I don't see why the DSMC system should take away the sweet spot in the line-up away as an option.
An explanation would clear up a lot. People suspect the decision is purely business related, and that seems like a fair assumption.
May be the upgrade isn't viable due to all the guts of the camera needing to be replaced. Fair enough.

Anyway, people can see the options now, and buy the monstro if that's what they want - so there's NO UPGRADE PLAN NEEDED!

[zak forrest]

This is all I could find about the subject.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15858

I don't really care what DSMC I get, they are all so insane =]

[Daniel Browning]

Please show me...

It's right here:



I, Jim Jannard, of RED Digital Cinema, being of sound mind and body, do hereby make, publish and declare that all RED ONE owners shall receive a free upgrade to Monstro. Henceforth shall all believers be entitled to the desire of their heart. And a pony.


Here is the link to where you said that:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=324929&postcount=14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_entitlement)

It's also one of my favorite posts.

[Joseph Ward]

Please show me...

Jim


OK, I have had plenty of sleep.

RED Digital Cinema announces the development of "Monstro", the Mysterium® sensor of the future. "Monstro" is the sensor that that removes all limitations in current sensor technology. It is expected to arrive the end of 2010.

"Monstro" will be a free upgrade to Epic, which will ship standard with the Mysterium X sensor in 2009.

We fully understand that our customers want resolution, maximum speed, incredible dynamic range, and low light capability. "Monstro" represents the final frontier in the digital vs. film struggle.

The RED "Mysterium" sensor was a breakthrough that got the RED ONE on the map. Mysterium X takes RED to the next level. "Monstro" is the platform that surpasses all expectations. Sleep tight... the RED Sensor Team is awake.

Jim

I thinks this is what the confusion is about. We all should realize ''things change''.

[FMG battery]

It's irrelevant because that post was made when Epic was a totally different kind of camera. Back then there was not a FF35 and S35, just one 5K Epic. Now, if you want Monstro, you simply order it and wait for it.

It's absurd to seriously think that Jim would sell an S35 Epic, then waste $10K giving people free upgrades to Monstro a few months later when they could have simply waited and ordered the Monstro. What is this, the Jim Jannard Charity Company?

I wish people would think before asking him for stuff like this when he has already been so generous.what are you waiting for tom?.. a gold medal for your extreme fanboyism?.. do not forget this is not the jannard charity company.. ehehehehehe

[Jannard]

This is all I could find about the subject.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15858

I don't really care what DSMC I get, they are all so insane =]

Nice find... that was back when Epic was one camera body that sold for $40K. If you want to pay that price, I'll honor the upgrade.

Jim

[Joseph Ward]

Nice find... that was back when Epic was one camera body that sold for $40K. If you want to pay that price, I'll honor the upgrade.

Jim

How are you on this site without your name being shown on the bottom of the Homepage? :)

[Daniel Browning]

How are you on this site without your name being shown on the bottom of the Homepage? :)

If you have basic questions about forum software, please post them in the "Off topic" section.

To answer your question, click "User CP", then "Options":

Invisible mode allows you to browse the forums without appearing in the 'Currently Active Users' lists.

[Joseph Ward]

If you have basic questions about forum software, please post them in the "Off topic" section.

To answer your question, click "User CP", then "Options":

Invisible mode allows you to browse the forums without appearing in the 'Currently Active Users' lists.

Thank you. I had know idea that was a software feature. I was starting to think Jim had Jedi powers or something. :)

[Tom Lowe]

Nice find... that was back when Epic was one camera body that sold for $40K. If you want to pay that price, I'll honor the upgrade.

Jim

hahahah....OWNED.

[zak forrest]

Nice find... that was back when Epic was one camera body that sold for $40K. If you want to pay that price, I'll honor the upgrade.

Jim


ahaha.

yeah i hope you dont think i was pointing to that post for that reason.. quite the opposite. maybe i shoulda been more clear.

everyone in my entire life is FREAKING OUT about the news.. all my friends and parents and people that do NOT CARE about camera technology at all are calling me and emailing me and freaking out =]

[Mark Pugh]

Nice find... that was back when Epic was one camera body that sold for $40K. If you want to pay that price, I'll honor the upgrade.

Jim

Good call. You trumped 'em. Some people may take you up on it - Mark Pederson, perhaps, so that they can start shooting 100fps full sensor. I'm very excited about the FF35.
In people's defense Jim, you can tell people that specs may change and we can count on it, but we're talking about upgrade offers, and your word... anyway, no-one has paid for an Epic yet, so no-one's being ripped off.

But while you're there... WHY AREN'T YOU OFFERING A S35 Monstro????
Offer an explanation and the issue might go away!

[FMG battery]

Nice find... that was back when Epic was one camera body that sold for $40K. If you want to pay that price, I'll honor the upgrade.

Jimwon't it be?.. i thought the worst should come yet w/ the rest of your price list.. am i wrong?

[david farland]

Ladies Ladies Ladies

Stop whining like little girls...that's my job!
Okay it doesn't seem like the value you're used to getting but how long did we wait for the first Red. Take the S35 out of the equation, keep the RedOne X sensor upgrade, wait for the Monstro and it represents same value/cost/timing we're used too.

In one way we got too much milk & honey with RedOne price/capability and a lot of us have made purchases over our usual limit. Now Jim is continuing the path with a whole new range of goodies and we're all about to spend big again. Which by the way is good value if we can recoup the value. But to a lot of us see that additional S35 step/cost/delay as a little expensive. I think what we're asking is a pricing/function in step with what we're seen to date. I think one solution may lie with having RedOne/mysteriumX sensor released at th e same time as the S35 or having a S35->FF35 upgrade subsidy.

note to Jim: 5000 people bought the R1 with accessories because it represented out of this world value. What you're hearing is 10:1 saying they feel the S35 if out of step with the usual out of this world value we're used to getting from you and what caused us to extend our budgets to you. No use comparing Red value with Sony costs/upgrades as they're strategy will never have access to you 5000(& rising) buyers. I believe you have a few tricks in your pocket thou.

phewiee,
D

[Mark Pugh]

Ladies Ladies Ladies

What you're hearing is 10:1 saying they feel the S35 if out of step with the usual out of this world value we're used to getting from you


Sister,
the S35 is out of this world value as well. It's just that it's not the sensor most people want in the format that most people (I think) want.
So they feel like they are being forced to buy top shelf when they want mid-range.

[david farland]

But while you're there... WHY AREN'T YOU OFFERING A S35 Monstro????
Offer an explanation and the issue might go away!
Mark,
That comes across rude. He doesn't owe you or anyone this explanation.
D

[Don King]

So they feel like they are being forced to buy top shelf when they want mid-range.Exactly my opinion. About all Epic program actually. Scarlet could be this mid-range. If not limited to the Red high-end. I'm used to see Sony to protect their high end, not Red, I thought.

[Mark Pugh]

Mark,
That comes across rude. He doesn't owe you or anyone this explanation.
D

I certainly don't mean to sound rude. My apologies to Jim.
But the reason this thread exists, I think, are the questions - "Do I want to save some money and go S35 (which is what my lenses are made for, and which will be best for shooting most jobs) on a chip that Jim says is inferior to Monstro?"
... and the other question "Why should I be having to worry about this"? It wasn't an issue on the 12th, when we were all looking forward to a Monstro S35.

Anyway - I'll let other people worry about it. I'm really excited about the FF35.

Re upgrades: a $17,500 credit is absolutely fantastic, everyone's eyes are wide open, and people should be extremely happy.

[Sidney L. Plaut]

in regards to the 40k Epic, isnt that still the price - brain + power module + connector module...?

Hey I would love an Epic ff35 - but but but and Epic5k monstro is what we (film people) need.

I dont believe any still photographer is going to buy a cinema camera to take stills. so epic is for film people. Why change a standard, in regards to FullFrame vs s35?

RED 1, primary disadvantage over 35mm is the DR. fix that and a less compressed codec (redcode 225) and were set to go for real! no more its still not 35mm. - All the colorists i have worked with still complain about the DR, and rightly so.

s35 Epic, Monstro. Thats the one i want. nice middle class´ish. Let the bigger boys get their 6k,9k,28k....

[david farland]

I don't think is realistic to scupper their entire development plans. There are way too many elements we're disrupting to begin asking for S35/4K Monstro.
I say upgrade Redone (cheaply) at the same time as S35
6 months later let me trade my R1 for FF35
let whoever wants new gear asap/1+stop/125fps/ get the S35 at the same time I upgrade R1.
D

[Stephen Pruitt]

Jim, Jim, Jim. . .

Sidney is dead on. It IS the S35 Monstro that the film people really want. I'm only a budding film guy, but that's certainly what I want. Heck, until the 13th announcement, I was on my way to buy a nice PL zoom. And BANG. Ain't gonna do that! I won't be able to use it with a FF35 and get that 13+ stop dynamic range. If I thought I'd be able to get a S35 Monstro, I'd still buy that glass.

And I think David is dead on when he says, "let me upgrade my R1 to the Mysterium X" AND THEN LET ME HAVE MY S35 Monstro in Epic.

There is no doubt that film is dying. With that one stroke (S35 Monstro), it would soon be dead.

Stephen

[Emmanuel Cambier]

The thing is you can very well use your PL zoom with the FF35 with at least as good a result as on the S35.

The only disturbing factor is if some new glass comes out that takes better advantage of the FF35, but it seems most unlikely.

Unless, of course if Jim has a plan to release some FF35 cinema lenses, now that would be the winner of all lenses.

Think of it, some nice spherical lenses able to take advantage of the whole 36x24 6K of the FF35.

Since they will be releasing FF35 lenses for stills, it shouldn't be so difficult for Red to rehouse them for a nice motion set.

Or they could prepare an Anamorphic set, shooting Ana on the FF35 is mighty tempting.

Emmanuel

[Tom Lowe]

Jim, Jim, Jim. . .

It IS the S35 Monstro that the film people really want. I'm only a budding film guy, but that's certainly what I want. Heck, until the 13th announcement, I was on my way to buy a nice PL zoom. And BANG. Ain't gonna do that! I won't be able to use it with a FF35 and get that 13+ stop dynamic range. If I thought I'd be able to get a S35 Monstro, I'd still buy that glass.


Dude, you can use PL glass on FF35.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Dude, you can use PL glass on FF35.

Exactly.

FF35 Monstro EPIC is $7K more than the S35 EPIC w/ Mysterium-X. How much cost savings do we guess there is if RED were to manufacture a smaller Monstro sensor and produce yet another model... I'd be willing to bet there is no advantage to going with a S35 Monstro version. If you want Monstro, go with the FF35 model. Install PL mount and shoot away... You also have the added benefit of the larger full frame sensor for glass that has larger coverage area (some PL glass does) or anamorphics. Or swap out the mount for Canon, Nikon, RED Mount and use FF35 lenses.

EPIC FF35 is the one that all the film people really want.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Exactly.
EPIC FF35 is the one that all the film people really want.

They just want it sooner than later :)

Emmanuel

[Tom Lowe]

Exactly.

FF35 Monstro EPIC is $7K more than the S35 EPIC w/ Mysterium-X. How much cost savings do we guess there is if RED were to manufacture a smaller Monstro sensor and produce yet another model... I'd be willing to bet there is no advantage to going with a S35 Monstro version. If you want Monstro, go with the FF35 model. Install PL mount and shoot away... You also have the added benefit of the larger full frame sensor for glass that has larger coverage area (some PL glass does) or anamorphics. Or swap out the mount for Canon, Nikon, RED Mount and use FF35 lenses.

EPIC FF35 is the one that all the film people really want.

This sums it up. The nail has met the coffin on this topic.

[Stephen Williams]

EPIC FF35 is the one that all the film people really want.

Hi,

They would rather have a S35 Monstro, which at present RED does not offer. I would expect that option to become available once all the orders for FF35 Monstro have been fulfilled.

Stephen

[Sidney L. Plaut]

Actually that does not sum up anything.

Have any 1 even tried filming FF 24fps? tried pulling focus wide open (hard enough on s35) where is the need? - to repeat myself. Improved DR + less compression and "even" 4k is enough to kill film in most cases.

In my country (Denmark) where one of the biggest posts is film stock, development and scanning - film is dying rapidly - because of RED. I even think we have the highest ratio of Red cam´s pr citizen. (maybe our brother country Norway is a little bit ahead)

If epics35 cannot have monstro. And scarlet will have a 6k version monstro-

Who wants a Red1 or Epic S35 - and yeah yeah Scarlett will have limitations compared to RED1 and Epic - still 6k monstro. But seriously who will want it ?- so they get a 3 months head start? c´mon.. we all waited years for the RED1 now we have it - ill gladly wait 2 years for a "monstro" - i just dont need the FF. I need and crave s35 monstro.

maybe only "7k" but next year again after Epicff35 guess what? SuperWonder Epic with even more "k´s" and larger chips, we dont need to make film. but hey - that will also only be 7k more.... and 7k and 7k...

Im all for RED, but please dont force me to buy a "ferrari" when all i need is a nice fast "porche".

(cause in the end we all know, we all want a "monstro" chip in our RED´s)

[FMG battery]

Hi,

They would rather have a S35 Monstro, which at present RED does not offer. I would expect that option to become available once all the orders for FF35 Monstro have been fulfilled.

Stephenehehehehehe

that's why i read you.. all your posts i must confess.. :blush:

seems clear now you read mine too even if you do not confess.. :)

edit
well.. you do not confess so often.. :biggrin:

[david farland]

You have to look at this a bit from Red's perspective.
1. Firstly they need to honour the people who have a RedOne and don't wish to upgrade. There would be (expensive) ways around this and I'm sure Jim has sliced/diced it but anyway the outcry would be significant.
The Monstro technology wouldn't work in R1 anyway so there is a need for a less beast to inhabit R1....Mysterium-X.
2. Next believe it or not there are actually people out there who don't have a R1. Yep..it's true..in this modern age, whole villages even.
Now Jim needs to sell to them with an emminent product. Obviously this should be as modern as possible and if possible pave the way for his future plan for them....The Epic body/accessories. The S35 satisifies both the R1 upgrade and start of the Epic line.
3. Monstro technology is proved but still a little way from commercial application. This takes it all up a notch. Latitude/frame rate and bigger sensors for a range of reasons, not the least a larger sensor is necessary for achieving a pure 4K in the chrominance arena (R1=2.7k).
4. Okay larger sensors require larger glass and Jim does want/need to break into the FF35 glass market, particularly as there is no cheap cine glass to support his Epic range.

so good luck getting him to break with all this. The only thing I see is sympathetic upgrade subsidies.
D

[FMG battery]

You have to look at this a bit from Red's perspective.
1. Firstly they need to honour the people who have a RedOne and don't wish to upgrade.honour nonor.. :poster_oops: honor.. where do you think you live?.. 18th century? :)

[Jason Ing]

Nice find... that was back when Epic was one camera body that sold for $40K. If you want to pay that price, I'll honor the upgrade.

Jim

This is very true.

Everyone expects Jim to be true to his "word" and yet I don't hear everyone complaining that the price dropped from $40k.

Jim has always been honorable and is good for his word. He said something within a context. He changed that context because it benefited the camera and therefore the "majority" of customers. I can see the wisdom in the design and route that Jim is taking.

[Jason Ing]

Jim,

If you're still reading and not thorougly disgusted yet and left RedUser for good, I have a hypothetical question:

What if Red One didn't exist, but you had all the knowledge and real world experience of the Red One and the benefit of the "brain bank" of RedUser forum (the smart, experienced users, that is). So with all that, you came up with Scarlett and Epic.

Would you design the Red One differently? (Because it seems like Red One would become an "entry level" Epic) If so, isn't it better to discontinue the Red One considering the superior modular design? (although I know it's your baby and you would still support existing owners like me)

[Stephen Williams]

Would you design the Red One differently? (Because it seems like Red One would become an "entry level" Epic) If so, isn't it better to discontinue the Red One considering the superior modular design? (although I know it's your baby and you would still support existing owners like me)

Hi,

There would be no need for a RED one, it's old technology relative to Scarlet or Epic. I am sure that once the new cameras ship, Red one sales will drop to zero unless the price is halved.

Stephen

[bobaandy]

Not necessarily. Remember it still has all the extra features that Scarlet doesn't. It also has more people who know how to use it, and the reputation by now.

[Stephen Williams]

Not necessarily. Remember it still has all the extra features that Scarlet doesn't. It also has more people who know how to use it, and the reputation by now.

Some of the features have been fixed on scarlet, such as slow boot up time. Generally features (gimmicks) are fairly unimportant, just DR & how the images look.

[Tom Lowe]

Is Red saying that they simply will not put a Monstro in S35, or are they asking people to be patient, or keeping quiet on the issue? I have not kept up 100% on this.

[Sidney L. Plaut]

Jason,

I agree with everything you said about Jim.

But the Epic s35 is 28k for brain ONLY. I assume you need power module, connector module, recording module adaptor... the total could easily be 40k? if i am not mistaken that is....

Hey i love RED. I love my RED 1. I love that the RED team is pushing ahead technology to unknown limits BUT I still think the average RED 1 owner is in fact an "average Joe" with his own company working in the film biz.

The upgrade offer is absolutely amazing an unheard of, but you still have to look at the economics vs need vs Return of investment.

The happy rental days are over. RED is not backordered anymore and the rental companies can fill their stocks up immediately - meaning that people who have had a deal with rental houses renting out their R1 wont be able to that anymore. ENTER SCARLET 6k. ENTER EPIC Monstro.

And how many can realistically afford another 17.500- plus modules - for an epic ff35 when your rental prices are not going up. The only thing that is going to happen is your R1 rates are going down.

I understand its not red´s problem if people can afford an epic or not, but fact is alot of R1 owners would be Scarlet 5k/6k owners if they had a choice now. instead theres like a R1 vacuum now. No way can you explain a client that a 4k camera is better than a 6k camera, even if there are some limitations.

I am not addressing Jim or RED particularly here, I am just laying it down as I see it. I think the brain scheme is great. I just wish there would be a s35 monstro Epic. I just want my own 35mm digital camera.

Epic monstro would be that (or close enough). And lets all admit that was why we bought a RED in the first place. We want to do what color film stock did to black and white film stock. we want to replace film.

I might be wrong about all this, maybe Red1 sales and reservations have been stable since the announcement. Maybe people are not thinking maybe i shouldnt buy pl glass because it wont fit the whole FF sensor. Maybe all this doesnt matter - i dont know.

I just know I need better DR and less compression (ok higher framerates an added and appreciated bonus)

[FMG battery]

Hi,

There would be no need for a RED one, it's old technology relative to Scarlet or Epic. I am sure that once the new cameras ship, Red one sales will drop to zero unless the price is halved.

Stephenif you were not right here i would say to you that you hate those two words correct?.. red one.. i bet.. probably not today.. but it stole you some hours of restless sleep..

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Disgusting/fart-in-bed.gif

[Jason Ing]

But the Epic s35 is 28k for brain ONLY. I assume you need power module, connector module, recording module adaptor... the total could easily be 40k? if i am not mistaken that is....


Well, technically you can use Red One battery's and plug it into the epic. which isn't as sweet a setup as using an epic battery that will fit perfectly on the epic body and make it look even cooler. :)

And Red accessories are historically reasonably priced and not that expensive (the red production pack is half the cost if you were to try and piece together one through third party sources). So I'm not sure you would have to pay $12k more to get the Epic up and running if you already own a Red One. We'll have to wait and see, but I think it will be far less.

[Jim Exton]

Not necessarily. Remember it still has all the extra features that Scarlet doesn't. It also has more people who know how to use it, and the reputation by now.

I think a lot of people are going to be happy with 5k at 30fps.

There are a lot of feature films that don't need to do more than that, in that case the Red One is going to be more money for unwanted features and less resolution and dynamic range.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

They would rather have a S35 Monstro, which at present RED does not offer. I would expect that option to become available once all the orders for FF35 Monstro have been fulfilled.

Then I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I can see where people may think they want an S35 Monstro version. But I fail to see what it would actually offer except for a potentially lower price at the expense of less sensor area. And I'm willing to bet that the cost savings would be minimal or even none at all.

Even for those who plan to keep PL mounted glass on their EPIC 99% of the time, the FF35 size still makes the most sense for shooting anamorphics and other FX work. Custom frame sizes would theoretically allow for portrait oriented shooting without turning the camera on its side.

Perhaps I'm just confused as to why the desire for S35 Monstro. The only reason I think is that people are requesting it under the assumption that it may save a few $$ instead of paying a full $7K more for the FF35 Monstro over the S35 Mysterium-X model. And I believe that reasoning to be flawed.

[Bing Bailey]

I don't think the recording , power and io is going to add up to another 12k , that stuff is usable across all brains. if it was that expensive it'll make a joke of scarlet which making the cheapest scarlet cost 15k without a lens. that would absolutely kill what red is trying to do and would make a joke of 3k for 3k

[Jim Exton]

Perhaps I'm just confused as to why the desire for S35 Monstro. The only reason I think is that people are requesting it under the assumption that it may save a few $$ instead of paying a full $7K more for the FF35 Monstro over the S35 Mysterium-X model. And I believe that reasoning to be flawed.

Yes.

The FF35 is going to make a nice Super 35mm and anamorphic camera.

[Joseph Ward]

Perhaps I'm just confused as to why the desire for S35 Monstro. The only reason I think is that people are requesting it under the assumption that it may save a few $$ instead of paying a full $7K more for the FF35 Monstro over the S35 Mysterium-X model. And I believe that reasoning to be flawed.

I agree with you. Maybe, people think they would save $2K?

Scarlet FF35(Monstro) - Scarlet S35(Mysterium X) = $5K Sensor Difference
Then, Epic S35(Mysterium X)$28K + $5k(Sensor Difference)= Epic S35 Monstro $33K
Now,
Epic FF35 Monstro= $35K -
Epic S35 Monstro= $33K = $2K

[Stephen Pruitt]

I'm suddenly wondering if I'm thinking of this all wrong. We have two R1s. How often do we shoot faster than 30FPS, anyway? In our case, almost never. So, I wonder if it makes more sense to just buy a Scarlet FF35 that only does 30fps and then keep around a Mysterium-X upgraded RED One for specialty shots requiring ramping, higher frame rates, etc.? No need to buy an Epic at all!

Two questions would then remain:

1. What will REDCode 225 give us that REDCode 42 doesn't?

2. How well will the look from a FF35 Monstro chip cut with a Mysterium-X RED One?

If the answers are "I doubt if you could ever tell the difference," then PERHAPS it really does make more sense to buy a Scarlet.

This is intriguing. . . I'm going to do some more math on this.

Stephen

[Stephen Pruitt]

And here's the math:

For us, with two R1s now, there would be the options:

1. Upgrade both R1s with the Mysterium-X chip. I'm assuming those upgrades will run $5000 each. Total: $10,000

2. Purchase one Scarlet FF35 with the Monstro, sell one R1, and upgrade the other one. Assume that Scarlet accessories to run the Scarlet cost $10,000. Total out-of-pocket cost: $15,800. (Assumes we will be able to sell the other R1 for $10,000.)

3. Trade one R1 in for an Epic FF35, purchase $10,000 worth of accessories, and then upgrade the other R1 with the Mysterium-X chip. Total out-of-pocket cost: $32,500.

4. Trade in both R1s for two Epics, each with $10,000 in accessories. Total out-of-pocket costs: $55,000.

For me, the crucial question then becomes, as noted above, how good REDCode 42 looks compared to REDCode 225 and how well a Monstro cuts with a Mysterium-X.

IF the visual, screen difference between REDCode 225 and REDCode 42 is negligible, I'm certain which way we'll go: Option 2 is the clear winner. We'd use the Scarlet as the A camera and the R1 for the B camera and for the specialty shots such as slow motion.

Am I nuts for thinking this way? Or what?

Stephen

[Steve Sherrick]

This thread is too funny. Lots of wild claims on cameras that have not even been produced in any form that we know of other than a render. I think Red will deliver on these new modular designs and I do believe they will be huge improvement over Red One. But all of this back and forth about Mysterium X and Monstro, two technologies that no one outside the walls of Red have ever seen, is quite amusing. Don't take this next statement as a diss to Red because it is far from it. Wouldn't it be better to declare Red One dead once we have seen what exactly those 13+ stops look like? Jim has been very excited about it, so I believe they have made huge advances and dynamic range will be one of them, but until we all get to do our tests like we did with Red One, it seems kind of premature to get into these kind of debates.

I'm sure some of the feedback is useful to Red, but some of it (not just this thread, many others) have been vicious, to the point where it's starting to get tough to read the forum these days. In the right hands, Red One is producing amazing images. Dynamic range may not be as much as some want, but man, for a first generation camera, it has a lot going for it. I put all my chips on Red. I still believe it was the right move because I like the images it produces compared to most other cameras available in similar price ranges.

I will assess the upgrade possibilities when the cameras are real and I can see them in action. Specs are less important to me these days. I have to be able to make informed decisions so I can keep a business plan intact.

[Jason Ing]

IF the visual, screen difference between REDCode 225 and REDCode 42 is negligible...

Does it come down to Redcode? What about the visual difference between 11 and 13 stops? The visual difference between two sensors might be saying the visual difference between to films. That's a big IF. And there are a lot of X factors in those prices. But I get what you're saying. I might think about it again too.

[Jason Ing]

This thread is too funny. Lots of wild claims on cameras that have not even been produced in any form that we know of other than a render. I think Red will deliver on these new modular designs and I do believe they will be huge improvement over Red One. But all of this back and forth about Mysterium X and Monstro, two technologies that no one outside the walls of Red have ever seen, is quite amusing. Don't take this next statement as a diss to Red because it is far from it. Wouldn't it be better to declare Red One dead once we have seen what exactly those 13+ stops look like? Jim has been very excited about it, so I believe they have made huge advances and dynamic range will be one of them, but until we all get to do our tests like we did with Red One, it seems kind of premature to get into these kind of debates.

I'm sure some of the feedback is useful to Red, but some of it (not just this thread, many others) have been vicious, to the point where it's starting to get tough to read the forum these days. In the right hands, Red One is producing amazing images. Dynamic range may not be as much as some want, but man, for a first generation camera, it has a lot going for it. I put all my chips on Red. I still believe it was the right move because I like the images it produces compared to most other cameras available in similar price ranges.

I will assess the upgrade possibilities when the cameras are real and I can see them in action. Specs are less important to me these days. I have to be able to make informed decisions so I can keep a business plan intact.

Didn't you ever shake your holiday presents way before you got to open them?

[Steve Sherrick]

Didn't you ever shake your holiday presents way before you got to open them?

I'm one that likes to be surprised. My wife on the other hand still goes looking to see where I've hid the gifts ahead of time. :)

It's all good. Everyone can have their discussions. I just think it's kind of funny. I suppose we all kind of did this when Red was first announced. Although at that point, we didn't have all these options to talk about. It was more focused on what that one camera would be.

[david farland]

Yep, we've gone as far as we can on all of this.

It's Jim's turn to post...!

Dave

[Joseph Ward]

I agree with you. Maybe, people think they would save $2K?

Scarlet FF35(Monstro) - Scarlet S35(Mysterium X) = $5K Sensor Difference
Then, Epic S35(Mysterium X)$28K + $5k(Sensor Difference)= Epic S35 Monstro $33K
Now,
Epic FF35 Monstro= $35K -
Epic S35 Monstro= $33K = $2K


And here's the math: 1. I'm assuming those upgrades will run $5000 each. Stephen

Ok? If Sensor upgrade cost $5K for whatever Sensor Generation?

RedOne $17,500 + $5K(Monstro)= $22,500
Or RedOne $17,500 + $5K(Mysterium X)= $22,500 + $5K(Monstro)= $27,500 +(for whatever Sensor Generation upgrades after) ?

[Jason Ing]

I'm one that likes to be surprised. My wife on the other hand still goes looking to see where I've hid the gifts ahead of time. :)

It's all good. Everyone can have their discussions. I just think it's kind of funny. I suppose we all kind of did this when Red was first announced. Although at that point, we didn't have all these options to talk about. It was more focused on what that one camera would be.

:)

I get what you're saying, though.

Can you imagine that this is going to go on for an entire year?

I think that's why Jim announced it so "early".

So he can tease people for another year and shake things up for the fun of it.

Some billionaires buy sports teams.

This billionaire tries to corner a market, shakes up big boy competitors, and creates thousands of fans for himself.

[Tom Lowe]

And here's the math:

For us, with two R1s now, there would be the options:

1. Upgrade both R1s with the Mysterium-X chip. I'm assuming those upgrades will run $5000 each. Total: $10,000

2. Purchase one Scarlet FF35 with the Monstro, sell one R1, and upgrade the other one. Assume that Scarlet accessories to run the Scarlet cost $10,000. Total out-of-pocket cost: $15,800. (Assumes we will be able to sell the other R1 for $10,000.)

3. Trade one R1 in for an Epic FF35, purchase $10,000 worth of accessories, and then upgrade the other R1 with the Mysterium-X chip. Total out-of-pocket cost: $32,500.

4. Trade in both R1s for two Epics, each with $10,000 in accessories. Total out-of-pocket costs: $55,000.

For me, the crucial question then becomes, as noted above, how good REDCode 42 looks compared to REDCode 225 and how well a Monstro cuts with a Mysterium-X.

IF the visual, screen difference between REDCode 225 and REDCode 42 is negligible, I'm certain which way we'll go: Option 2 is the clear winner. We'd use the Scarlet as the A camera and the R1 for the B camera and for the specialty shots such as slow motion.

Am I nuts for thinking this way? Or what?

Stephen

5. Sell both R1s for 16K each x 2 = $32K and buy one Epic FF35.

How are you figuring 10K for a R1? Anyone wanting an Epic will buy it off you for 16K so they can save a grand. Why not.

[Todd M.]

Then I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I can see where people may think they want an S35 Monstro version. But I fail to see what it would actually offer except for a potentially lower price at the expense of less sensor area. And I'm willing to bet that the cost savings would be minimal or even none at all.

Even for those who plan to keep PL mounted glass on their EPIC 99% of the time, the FF35 size still makes the most sense for shooting anamorphics and other FX work. Custom frame sizes would theoretically allow for portrait oriented shooting without turning the camera on its side.

Perhaps I'm just confused as to why the desire for S35 Monstro. The only reason I think is that people are requesting it under the assumption that it may save a few $$ instead of paying a full $7K more for the FF35 Monstro over the S35 Mysterium-X model. And I believe that reasoning to be flawed.


Thankfully someone has some sense on this board.

[Emanuel A.]

5. Sell both R1s for 16K each x 2 = $32K and buy one Epic FF35.

How are you figuring 10K for a R1? Anyone wanting an Epic will buy it off you for 16K so they can save a grand. Why not.I'm afraid to warn you this won't work it out like that. Take a glance on this info [ LINK ] (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/red-digital-cinema/138020-buying-used-red-one.html) .

[conrad gaunt]

Another thing to consider is that, unless there's options to lower the data rate (which I'm sure there will), Epic run at 225MB/sec, which is over 6 times more than Redcode36. At this rate, a RED Drive with 320GB gives you about 22 minutes of footage, and a 16GB card... 67sec. This is without counting the transcode time, the storage needed, etc..

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but those are things that needs to be taken into consideration as well.

I agree. Once my image problems are sorted on my Red (which I increasingly think is caused by a fault with my specific hardware and is getting sent back), rc36, and even rc28 could be seen as a R1 asset, at least I do, and certainly for a while.

If we could get raw R3D trimming and output from Redcine/RedAlert, the archiving advantage is great between rc225 and rc28-36.

It could be the difference between backing up on some future high capacity "highly reliable" flash memory drive, or just a regular drive. I know which I'd rather trust my data to, and long term digital archiving is still unknown territory IMO, but i think others too.

I think I'm getting over THE LACK OF CpU UpGrade, er sorry, last time, and less concerned about the R1 killers.
I can always place a scarlet inside my R1s body and then remove the lens, OLPF and sensor. sorry . definately last one
" TrYiNg To AdJuSt :wink:"YOU ARE NOT OBSOLETE" :
"YOU ARE NOT OBSOLETE" :sick:
..Aaarrrggghh.. must stay strong,.. " :pinch:

:pirate: - It ain't so bad, you gibbering land luva. Nothing a spot of rum can't fix, you vibrating pile of bio-luminescent jellyfish sick!

As Spike Milligan once said, "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a full frontal labotomy". I shall never ask for neurosurgery on my R1 again, I shall feed it rum instead, sorry, nearly all out..

[Tom Lowe]

I'm afraid to warn you this won't work it out like that. Take a glance on this info [ LINK ] (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/red-digital-cinema/138020-buying-used-red-one.html) .

Even if that was true, you could still get $16K for your first R1, and $15,000 or more for each additional R1, right? If you have have to pay $1200 to get it certified, plus knock another 1G off for savings to future Epic buyers, you are still left with 15K roughly. Is that right?

[Mark Pugh]

This thread is too funny. Lots of wild claims on cameras that have not even been produced in any form that we know of other than a render.

What do you expect? come on -
Red openly promoted speculation (months and months ago on the Scarlet), and openly asked for feedback on the new cameras.
No big deal, people are just speculating on a camera system that they are looking forward to and feel involved with.
Plans have been published, and people are excited.
The many camera models listed means that some have difficult decisions to make, and are talking about them. Big deal.
Someone recently posted that Jim should be disgusted.
I just don't see much here that's truly disgusting, really.

The other role for a forum like this is for the manufacturer to respond to the feedback. There hasn't been much response here this week, so the chatter continues. Relax.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

5. Sell both R1s for 16K each x 2 = $32K and buy one Epic FF35.

Only need to sell one of them. $17.5K trade-in value for the one you don't sell. And that's assuming RED only allows one R1 trade per EPIC purchase, which seems logical, but they haven't said for sure.


How are you figuring 10K for a R1? Anyone wanting an Epic will buy it off you for 16K so they can save a grand. Why not.

Agreed. But then again, don't tell too many people this... I'm kinda hoping to pick up a used R1, as a back-up and rental camera, for a bit cheaper than that in the next few months.

[Stephen Williams]

If you have have to pay $1200 to get it certified, ?

Hi Tom,

When was it stated that you had to get a camera certified for $1200 before being able to trade it in?

I thought unless the waranty had been voided it would be accepted.

Stephen

[Tom Lowe]

Hi Tom,

When was it stated that you had to get a camera certified for $1200 before being able to trade it in?

I thought unless the waranty had been voided it would be accepted.

Stephen

Stephen, I was just reacting to this link from Emanuel...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/red-digital-cinema/138020-buying-used-red-one.html

I have no idea if that information is correct or not. But even if it is, that still means you could sell an R1 for 15K to people who are interested in cashing it in for Epic. Low-serial-number R1s might even fetch a premium in the early days, if Epic's rollout is slow at all.

[Sidney L. Plaut]

hmmm ... wondering about people saying scarlett is limited to 30fps? isnt that just in their max resolution like r1 is 30fps according to the data sheet?

If my posts have been ugly, or seemed rude, this has ofcourse never been my intend. Im just trying to get a good healthy discussion going. 'also we seem to be the intended target group for either an Epics35 or FF35, so figuring out what they are about is important in my opinion.

Also i dont have unlimited funds to pour into this camera. I sure i was buying the RED primes, but now i am confused. looks like next year is going to be expensive too... story of my life. welcome to the entertainment biz!

But hey all said and done, if they keep their schedule I have an 5k/6k digital film camera, and i am not even 30 years old. cant wait till im 40!

Now if only apple would pull a "Jannard" and release a monster mac, to process all our RAW files without a 1:15 ratio:)

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen, I was just reacting to this link from Emanuel...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/red-digital-cinema/138020-buying-used-red-one.html

I have no idea if that information is correct or not. But even if it is, that still means you could sell an R1 for 15K to people who are interested in cashing it in for Epic. Low-serial-number R1s might even fetch a premium in the early days, if Epic's rollout is slow at all.

Hi Tom,

If it were true then the second hand value of RED One would drop very low, how can you be sure that it will be even be accepted, very risky indeed IMHO.

I have a feeling the Epic roll out will not be slow, I believe RED will satisfy demand in a few months, however great that demand is.

Stephen

[Tom Lowe]

Hi Tom,

If it were true then the second hand value of RED One would drop very low, how can you be sure that it will be even be accepted, very risky indeed IMHO.


Well, you are speculating about something none of us know the answer to.

Anyway, let's wait and see what the policy is. Jim has a track record of being more than fair, wouldn't you agree?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The $500 tune-up with ownership transfer has been in place for a while, close to the beginning of the R1's first shipping. Originally I thought it included the 90-day warranty, but it seems that now costs extra and is optional. Would like clarification on that.

IMO, if I were buying a second-hand RED, especially if it's from someone I don't really know, I would love to send it in for a check-up and to get all the ownership details transferred so I can continue to get support and upgrades for it. $500 for a complete check-up doesn't sound like a bad deal to me. Would like it a lot better if the warranty is included... $700 for a 90-day warranty is too steep, IMO. Insurance deductable to replace the camera with a new one is $1K with my current policy. :whistling:

[Stephen Williams]

Jim has a track record of being more than fair, wouldn't you agree?

Hi Tom,

I never had any problems with Jim or his companies support to date.

Stephen

[Stephen Pruitt]

Back to my "crucial question":

Does anyone have any conjecture on what the visual difference between REDCodes 42 and 225 will be like? As noted, I think that the data storage for a feature in 225 will be HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. We used 5TB for our first feature using REDCode 32. Are we talking like 50TB for a feature with REDCode 225?

So, again, are we really likely to be able to see the difference between these two codecs? If not, I'll go Scarlet all the way.

Stephen

[Jeff Kilgroe]

At this point, the 42, 225, 500 numbers are just arbitrary quality references. So we can speculate until the cows come home on that one. Actually some of us already have, look around. Keep in mind that the formats mentioned are what the camera can record *up to* and it may be some time before anyone can actually record something like REDCODE 225 to onboard media. We may spend the first year or so recording to REDCODE 100 just to make another arbitrary reference.