DSMC a DSLR Killer?

[DigitalFreak]

For some very good reasons (http://digitalfreak.net/2008/11/14/dsmc-mysterium-monstro-sensors-not-the-dslrs-killers/), I don't think the DSMC system will be the DSLR killer they claim it will be...

Don't get me wrong, this will def. push the envelope but it won't replace the DSLRs anytime soon!

This being said, i'd love to see it in action ah!

[Nova Invicta]

The one folly of the Red management is to presume masses will leave the Canon or Nikon ranks it just will not happen. Yes some will use the new Red offerings but you have to factor in brand loyalty, the wealth of lenses and accessories many backwards compatable and the world-wide dealer & service center network not to mention all those high street outlets.

[Brian Langeman]

Well the Red brains actually have a big advantage in that you can swap out the mounts for Canon or Nikon. But price wise, I think it makes more sense still to go for the 5D MII if your primary interest is just in stills.

[DigitalFreak]

Well the Red brains actually have a big advantage in that you can swap out the mounts for Canon or Nikon. But price wise, I think it makes more sense still to go for the 5D MII if your primary interest is just in stills.
5D or Nikon D3 to match the FF35 but the brains are so high-end that they compare more to digital medium format but then if I wanna use the 645 brain, I will need new lenses anyways... See my point?

[CinemaSpy]

I can see medium format and still life shooters flocking towards the DSMC, but the lens issue is problematic. Sure you can put focus mechanisms in the bodies, but Canon - and now Nikon - have discovered that autofocus motors in the lens (vibrating piezo elements, aka Ultrasonic and Silent Wave) are MUCH faster.

About size: how big will this camera be? If it's much bigger than today's big DSLRs, then it's not going to appeal to journalistic shooters in the field.

What about ruggedness and sealing against dust and moisture? One of the problems with a totally modular camera is keeping out foreign elements (imagine shooting in a war zone, for example). A Nikon pro DSLR like the D3 uses a magnesium alloy body and is well-sealed against dust and moisture. Those things can really take a pounding.

I guess my point is: Can the RED DSMC offer enough compactness, durability, lens flexibility...and of course autofocus...to lure in any pro shooters beyond the medium format crowd for whom action, speed, durability and portability are unnecessary?

[Christopher Keiser]

I am a flock of one.

I will buy a Scarlet brain as soon as it is available.

Currently I carry Canon MKIII, 20D and a Panasonic HVX200 on most gigs.

What I wouldn't give to be able to carry one body, and a back-up brain, and one tripod.

I encounter many producer/shooters like myself and I know that they mostly want the same.

-Christopher

[Jarred Land]

Christopher gets it :)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

often it is allowed to take pictures for free but not shoot.

if i can do the james bond with epic and scarlet i know some nice places to get a couple minutes of footage....if it looks like a still but still shoots 25 fps for some minutes i am happy...hehe

[Tony Lorentzen]

I was actually looking forward to see my new DSLR this thursday, but I'm sad to say that none of the choices presented live up to what I want for the price I want to pay. I already own a RED ONE so I'm pretty well equipped in terms of pro video, but I was looking for a full frame replacement of my trusty Canon 30D that would also shoot decent travel/family-videos. Doesn't seem like any of the options presented by RED (though they're very interesting) will be a threat to the Canon 5D MkII.

[Deanan]

The paradigm starts to shift when you can shoot stills at video rates.
Stills cease to be stills and become multidimensional stills.

The chances of capturing the right moment goes up plus you have a more information to work with for all sorts of cool things.

[Tony Lorentzen]

The paradigm starts to shift when you can shoot stills at video rates.
Stills cease to be stills and become multidimensional stills.

The chances of capturing the right moment goes up plus you have a more information to work with for all sorts of cool things.

Absolutely I agree - I'm just saying I'd love to have a full frame stills camera (low framerate) with video (windowed sensor up to 30fps) capabilities at ~$3k.

Things would obviously be different if I wasn't a RED ONE owner already :)

[Jannard]

A great option is to carry two systems... a RED ONE and a DSLR.

Jim

[Geo]

Impressive announcement but its looks very complicated for both the end user and manufacturer alike.

Yes, I can see the advantage of shooting stills and video with one "brain" but as for a DSLR killer there are many questions. A lot will depend on the quality of the final image, the performance of the AF system, a flash system that works and these ease of use in the field to name but a few. What happens when it breaks down where does it go for servicing and how quickly will it turned round?. Then there is image processing to consider this has not been mentioned so far.

I'm sure these questions will be answered sometime soon and most importantly we will get to see samples of the final images.

I have said it before but I will say it again, I just wonder what is sitting on the bench of the Canon R&D department, I am sure they have some form of shutterless/mirrorless cameras capable of high frame rates under development, this coupled with their sensor technology, availabilty of lenses, accessories, software development and the all important service network.

If it is proven that there is market for this type of product then the competition to bring it to market will be fierce.

[Jannard]

Impressive announcement but its looks very complicated for both the end user and manufacturer alike.

Yes, I can see the advantage of shooting stills and video with one "brain" but as for a DSLR killer there are many questions. A lot will depend on the quality of the final image, the performance of the AF system, a flash system that works and these ease of use in the field to name but a few. What happens when it breaks down where does it go for servicing and how quickly will it turned round?. Then there is image processing to consider this has not been mentioned so far.

I'm sure these questions will be answered sometime soon and most importantly we will get to see samples of the final images.

I have said it before but I will say it again, I just wonder what is sitting on the bench of the Canon R&D department, I am sure they have some form of shutterless/mirrorless cameras capable of high frame rates under development, this coupled with their sensor technology, availabilty of lenses, accessories, software development and the all important service network.

If it is proven that there is market for this type of product then the competition to bring it to market will be fierce.

If they have it... we expect them to bring it.

Jim

[Tony Lorentzen]

A great option is to carry two systems... a RED ONE and a DSLR.

I know :shifty:

[Lee Jay]

Christopher gets it :)

In that case, RED does not. In order for something to be a "DSLR killer" it has to be interesting to someone who currently uses DSLRs to only shoot stills. I carry two full systems (20D and 5D - $4500 total) to every shoot, have them both around my neck for the entire day, along with accessories like lenses, flashes, batteries, PSDs, and flash cards. Would you do that with any of the new offerings from RED?

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

its a matter of a still camera companioning your video camera,, in one piece.. not like 5DII which is a video camera companioning the still camera one piece too...
you're getting a video camera with still option not vice versa..

[Deanan]

In that case, RED does not. In order for something to be a "DSLR killer" it has to be interesting to someone who currently uses DSLRs to only shoot stills. I carry two full systems (20D and 5D - $4500 total) to every shoot, have them both around my neck for the entire day, along with accessories like lenses, flashes, batteries, PSDs, and flash cards. Would you do that with any of the new offerings from RED?

Scarlet's intention is to change the notion of a 'DSLR' by shifting the paradigm by which you capture stills by merging stills capture into video. By that we don't mean tacking 1080P on to a stills camera. Instead every frame of a clip is worth of a still and every 'still' can be a burst of frames so you always get the moment at 30 or 60fps rather than 10 fps.

We have alot DSLR shooters at RED and yes, we see Scarlet replacing our DSLRs.

[Brian Langeman]

But the cheapest offering from Red for a full frame sensor is $12 000! You can get Canon's 1Ds MarkII for less than that, AND get a couple solid L lenses. Or I could get the 5D MarkII and get pretty much all the Canon L Lenses that I really want, which I am still saving up for.

Think about amateur photographers, they are WAY more likely to get the 5D than the Scarlet. Maybe that's not who you're marketing it for, and that's fine. But that's why it won't replace DSLRs just yet I don't think. $12 000 might not be that much for professional film and video people, with their companies supporting the purchases and grants or funding for movies. But stills is a whole different story.

[K. Møller]

Scarlet's intention is to change the notion of a 'DSLR' by shifting the paradigm by which you capture stills by merging stills capture into video. By that we don't mean tacking 1080P on to a stills camera. Instead every frame of a clip is worth of a still and every 'still' can be a burst of frames so you always get the moment at 30 or 60fps rather than 10 fps.

We have alot DSLR shooters at RED and yes, we see Scarlet replacing our DSLRs.

I'm looking so much forward to this...

Imagine being able to just let the camera roll at a fashion shoot and not having to click all the time..
In the studio, you could even output to a 42" plasma as the craziest viewfinder in existence and focus on your models, your lights....

When, (not if, 'cause it's got to be coming) I can't say how much of a change this will make for photographers. Immense!

Cheers

Karuna

[Lee Jay]

Scarlet's intention is to change the notion of a 'DSLR' by shifting the paradigm by which you capture stills by merging stills capture into video. By that we don't mean tacking 1080P on to a stills camera. Instead every frame of a clip is worth of a still and every 'still' can be a burst of frames so you always get the moment at 30 or 60fps rather than 10 fps.

We have alot DSLR shooters at RED and yes, we see Scarlet replacing our DSLRs.

For $40,000 for two full-frame systems, for more than 3 times the weight, without fast autofocus, and without a flash system? That's just nuts. Taking professional-quality video prevents the taking of professional quality stills. I might change focal length by a factor of 5, aperture by 5 f-stops, the direction I'm pointing by 120 degrees, and go from flash to non-flash, all in a second. The resulting stills are just fine, the resulting video is a throwaway piece of garbage.

30fps and even 60fps is often too slow for the "spray and pray" approach anyway. These pairs of images were taken by different cameras, at obviously different times, each taken in single-shot, and they are timed within about 1-2ms of each other. You'd need 500fps to 1000fps to do that with spray and pray, yet I can do it fairly reliably (over 50%) with single-shot, even though these two cameras have different amounts of lag.

http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/20D%20versus%20S3%20crops.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/20D%20versus%20S3%20crops%202.jpg

[Deanan]

For $40,000 for two full-frame systems, for more than 3 times the weight, without fast autofocus, and without a flash system? That's just nuts. Taking professional-quality video prevents the taking of professional quality stills. I might change focal length by a factor of 5, aperture by 5 f-stops, the direction I'm pointing by 120 degrees, and go from flash to non-flash, all in a second. The resulting stills are just fine, the resulting video is a throwaway piece of garbage.

30fps and even 60fps is often too slow for the "spray and pray" approach anyway. These pairs of images were taken by different cameras, at obviously different times, each taken in single-shot, and they are timed within about 1-2ms of each other. You'd need 500fps to 1000fps to do that with spray and pray, yet I can do it fairly reliably (over 50%) with single-shot, even though these two cameras have different amounts of lag.

http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/20D%20versus%20S3%20crops.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/20D%20versus%20S3%20crops%202.jpg

You're making assumptions about a number of things incorrectly but ultimately the best comparison will come when the cameras are shipping. :)

[Lee Jay]

If you have a flash system, I didn't see it announced. If there is a focus system, I didn't see that either, but without a mirror, you're seemingly relegated to the slow, poor-performing contrast-detect system. The "brains" are $12,000 each, so even if we assume the needed accessories (grip, mount, battery, hot shoe, etc.) are free, it's stil $24,000 versus $5,700 for the competition. Even if we assume the accessories also have zero mass, it's still 6 pounds versus under 4 pounds for the competition. I'd say the assumptions of zero cost and zero mass are wrong, but wrong in RED's favor, and it's still not close.