The Nov 13th Aftermath

[John Wee]

When you shoot, you always use the camera that customer's provide. You are only providing your service as a DP. However, you *want* a personal camera for that 35mm dof and the awesome Redcode RAW for personal projects. Camera is not going to be used to make money (rental, commercial projects ....etc). The time frame to own/buy camera is not crucial or critical at all.

Since they are going to continue offering the RED ONE, will the future Red One come with stock Mysterium X sensor ? or will it be an additional feature requiring additional $$$$ ??

What would you do ? Please cast your vote.

[Steve Gibby]

I think you should have added a third choice in your poll for: "Yes I would buy RED One - and I will also buy Epic and/or Scarlet too"

If it was available, that would have been my choice of vote...

[John Wee]

Gibby,

I would love to have the Epic FF35 but unfortunately that budget is way out of my needs and league. If I would have $$$ to upgrade to an Epic, then there is no Poll at all, I would pay for my RED ONE tomorrow.

I am also weary about the Red One future. SAy one day, Red manages to totally eliminate the rolling shutter problem or by switching to Global shutter or CCD ; the Red one will be left out in the cold. Now I am talking about many many years from now though.

[brandon thomas]

The Red One is still an amazing tool, and is a current stepping stone towards epic.. pretty easy to justify.. if time is not an object, then there really isn't an issue, and we'll know so much more in a few months time..

[KETCH ROSSi]

Definitely by RED ONE now, unless off course you have no use till SCARLET and or EPIC become available and you see that by the specs Etc. they will do for you what RED ONE can't and or you like them better and or what EVER!

After some sure F%@$! UP situations and having very sadly had to sale my RED ONEs I'm finally getting back on my feet, or trying, and will be purchasing several RED ONE cameras that will find their new home here at KETCHFRAME STUDIOS, and Peter, also here at KETCHFRAME, will be buying several RED ONEs, for both here and his company in Mexico.

Then when the EPIC and SCARLET will become available I'll be upgrading them all to the EPICs, and also getting several SCARLETs.

But as for me is for others that do have projects now, there is absolute no reason to wait, RED ONE has been and still is and still will be for time to come a FANTASTIC Camera, especially with the already announced to become available Sensor upgrade programs!

So obviously I vote "Yes I will by a RED ONE NOW"

ciao

[Steve Freebairn]

I think you should have added a third choice in your poll for: "Yes I would buy RED One - and I will also buy Epic and/or Scarlet too"

If it was available, that would have been my choice of vote...

Gibby is a man of great wisdom, it's worth buying the RED One now, and using it so that you can buy the FF35 next year.

[David Dennis]

Gibby,

I would love to have the Epic FF35 but unfortunately that budget is way out of my needs and league. If I would have $$$ to upgrade to an Epic, then there is no Poll at all, I would pay for my RED ONE tomorrow.

I am also weary about the Red One future. SAy one day, Red manages to totally eliminate the rolling shutter problem or by switching to Global shutter or CCD ; the Red one will be left out in the cold. Now I am talking about many many years from now though.

It sounds to me like you are talking about either a hobby or a one-off venture where you purchase a RED ONE or Scarlet to make your own very personal type of movie, the kind that is immensely satisfying to make, but is not necessarily going to be a commercial success.

Gibby and others have substantial ways to make money on their RED products and so they buy them with that purpose in mind. In their case, they will buy RED ONEs secure in the fact that their contacts and expertise will make it relatively easy to rent them, use them on ongoing projects, etc. So they can make up the cost of a RED ONE in a year and will then be happy to convert their REDs into Epics.

In fact, we know Gibby's going to take RED ONE #8 as a collector's item, essentially, and convert his remaining units. I would not be surprised if a couple of years from now we see Gibby with that new 617 28K model, happy as a clam to take even more stunning wildlife footage. Want to rent gorgeous, pristine 267 megapixel wildlife footage? Yes you can!

I give you my advice from a standpoint that's closer to you - I bought a Canon XL1 in 1998 and never made significant amounts of money from it. I just enjoyed owning it and using it for various satisfying but non-money making projects. At that time it was one of the better digital still picture options as well as motion video and so I used it as both a still and video camera.

My XL1 cost $4,400 and has been in continuous use between then and the present. It is finally ready for retirement. It's worn out and things are starting not to work. But it had a great run and I'm happy I bought it.

One key thing about my purchase is that I had a large business windfall when I bought it and was able to pay cash. I did not take on any debt to buy it and I enjoyed it for roughly a decade of use. In my opinion, as an advanced amateur, that's the best way to buy any expensive photo gadget. Expect it to have a long life and to have a life measurable in years no matter how technology changes.

If you buy a RED ONE now and take on debt to buy it I think you will be unhappy when Scarlet/EPIC come out, just as others have mentioned. I am not one of the crowd who resents Jim for coming out with better models as time goes by; that is inevitable. But if you are not in a position to make money from RED ONE now, don't buy it. You will have lost the $17.5k and probably more since you may have accessories for RED ONE that you won't necessarily want for Scarlet.

Now, I don't know anything about your project, but I'd like to make a gentle suggestion in any respect. Take the year between now and when Scarlet comes out to really refine the heck out of whatever script you are planning to produce. Really think it through, scout out locations, do all the pre-production work you need. Then when Scarlet comes out you will be ready to hit the ground running, and your film will be much better for this forced pre-production holiday. If it helps you with money burning a hole in your pocket, treat yourself to a good still camera like a Nikon D90 to help you scout out locations.

In all honesty, 3K Scarlet is most likely going to be more than adequate for pretty much anything produced short of a major high-budget feature movie. If 3K Scarlet costs about $5-7k you will have saved a heapload of money compared to a RED ONE, and you can put that into other aspects of your film, like lighting and set design. Or you can make your film without going wildly into debt.

If I'm wrong and your purchase profile is like Gibby, OffHollywood Mark and friends, ignore my advice. If you're an enthusiastic amateur like me who wants to product great things on a shoestring, waiting for 3K Scarlet will let you do great things without breaking the bank. I'd love a full frame Epic as much as the next guy, but remember, lenses for that thing are more than $10,000.

Remember, Jim doesn't need your money but if you make a great film he will be proud of you and of his role in your success. I'm dead certain that he would rather you buy a Scarlet 3K and make a quality film than buy a RED ONE and make a lousy one.

Hope that was interesting.

D

[Luca Immesi]

Buying a Red one has been one of the smartest move for my business. If you need for business first and personal project second buy it now.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I think the RED One still looks like an interesting camera in the line-up. If we would have the budget, our little company would buy one now.
It's here, right now, it still gives great images, it's an all in one package, (which has it limitations, but also it's advantages) and has higher frame rates then the Scarlet. The Epic camera's look the least interesting to me, but maybe that's because they are WAY out of my league, budget wise (where I suppose we maybe could once buy a RED One) and I don't really have lots of advantages for what it brings on the table.

[Denis Buhot]

Hope that was interesting.

D

there is a very special tone in your posts... I like it..

[david farland]

What would you do ? Please cast your vote.

Not quite sure why you worded it the way you have. It's virtually asking people do they want a Scarlet or Epic in the future.

Because buying the RedOne now gives you no disadvantage as you have a full 17K credit on an Epic.
D

[Emanuel A.]

These poll results just disappoint.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

These poll results just disappoint.

How is that? Actually the poll is pretty even at the moment. Seems to me that anyone planning to buy EPIC has nothing to lose if they buy the RED One now. As for those who are waiting for Scarlet, it comes down to needs... If they can wait for Scarlet, they obviously don't need a camera right now.

That said, the RED One is a fine camera on its own and it will continue to be supported and get upgrades, so buying a RED One, even with no immediate intentions of upgrading to EPIC is still a good decision.

[Peter Majtan]

It should have been public poll IMHO...

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

If you have the money and need for it now, go ahead and get it - for all we know the scarlet/epics could be at least 18 months away for you. Remember: Those who got their REDs are already ahead of you in line for Scarlet/Epic.

Also history has thought me that RED have often been a tad optimistic (to say the least) on their release/delivery schedules....

When The new cameras comes out, you can....

a) continue using your kick-ass RED ONE.
b) Sell your RED ONE and get a Scarlet of choise.
c) Upgrade your RED ONE to Epic.
d) Upgrade the sensor on your RED ONE. (for a fee)

[Tarek S. Kandil]

Red one and scarlet are completey different machines. Helps to think of R1 as old epic. This has been around and discussed in several forums, including the obsolescence chat...

I voted to wait for scarlet and epic, as epic technology will affect r1. Even if I buy a scarlet, I would need some flexibility with frame rates and windowing. All my work is gonna be output at HD (and sadly enough in beirut DV).

I run a small 8mm lab. I would buy a scarlet for fine arts apps installations etc, and would hire them aside super8 for cheap, so the crew and student and indy renters can mix between 3K and super8. You're stuck with one fixed res with both. I'd buy and extra scarlet to use in my telecine rig cause they're not pricey.

R1 is the commercial machine. And 3K still isn't 4K.

Epic is R2 if you will, from what I'm seein.

Even above 6K is a completely different application, and we're forgetting about what a gov't can even do.

I feel weird answerin this poll, i think we need a c) why? and to be a bit more specific with what to do with the cams.

What RED has done (like what reason for audio has done but miles more) is shorten the distance from an idea to a realization. When this distance shortens I find focus is easy to lose. Everybody serious is gonna put these machines in their place according to their needs ultimately, and there are other pieces of capable gear that can be very complementary.

I would still keep saving up for my R1, cause my plans for it are different than scarlet.

But I'm getting a 2/3 scarlet.

Cheers RED,

[Tarek S. Kandil]

Come to think of it what would super8mm scanned at 3K look like?

An example of the fine arts app would be to mess with 3D like dali did. Another forum was wondering how to project the material, and I remembered in paris at the salvador dali museum you would walk up to a board and position yourself so it was perpendicular to your face, separating your eyes. On each side of the board was a painting and dammit when you look at both it works, and you lose your mind.

I wonder if looking at two synced monitors on ends of a board would work as simply as a static image.

and what color would the board have to be

[Billy Summers]

I know someone who built a 3d viewing box using two RED lcd's...

[donatello b]

" you *want* a personal camera "

RED 103 is my personal camera ( not used for work.. private use only) ... based on that experience ...
i love the 4k IMAGE .. i do not like the weight ... love the image ..
equipment i need to shoot does not fit into the trunk of my 2 seater convertible .. do love the image & driving with the top down ... PL lens are just too big/heavy for me .. did i say i love the image .... i want smaller for my personal camera & i want that IMAGE !! ...

IMO if you know you are going to buy a Epic for your personal camera then get the R1 now = you get 17,500 credit down the line on your Epic ....

as of now i do not think i'm going Epic for a personal camera ... off the top of my head i'm thinkin scarlet with built in lens ... but i love that 4k image & DoF ... so the scarlet S35 is looking good ... then i would love to see 16bit/13stops ( S35 sensor size ... not FF 35 ) ??? will have to wait to see the different scarlets (spec's when released) for personal camera ...

[Tarek S. Kandil]

I know someone who built a 3d viewing box using two RED lcd's...

did it work? no headaches or strain or anything?

[Jonathan Payne]

This is a great thread for someone like me operating on a micro budget but with a desire for a small portable personal camera system with a good image and an eye behind the viewfinder that hopefully makes the expense and technology worth it. These remarks and insights are very level headed. I appreciate it very much.

[John Wee]

What do you think RED will do with all those RED ONE that was sent back for the EPIC upgrades ? Will it be sold as "used" units ? Will Jim donate the RED ONE to 3rd world country Film Schools ? local US film schools ?

Also, since it seems like the RED ONE will be sold along with Epic and Scarlet, do you think the new future RED ONE come stock with Mysterium X sensor ? (Already asked Jim in one of his RECON messages, and he didint give an answer).

[Mark K.]

I remain in no great hurry to buy my own camera just yet. But if I were to invest in my own equipment, I certainly think waiting for Scarlet/Epic makes the most sense. You could invest in something like the Scarlet s35mm brain at first (with all the necessary accessories) and if owning your own gear then turned out to be a successful venture, the cost of upgrading the system would be far more manageable - you'd only have to invest in a new brain (say the Epic s35mm).

That sort of streamlined upgradeability holds a lot of appeal for me personally.

[Matt Newcomb]

if you're going to get epic and have the money, it's a no brainer. You basically get a free red one rental until the epic comes out.