Ultra High Frame Rate Brain [Archive]

Mark L. Pederson

11-15-2008, 08:24 AM

Jim -

I think you should do this. And I know you can.

I'm close to pulling the trigger on a $120,000K+ for a Phantom - at $4K a day rental with cinemags - I can ROI in one year with my eyes closed and make money on the post services.

Why not make a ULTRA HIGH FRAME RATE BRIAN for Epic - $75K or so ... it would still be a bargin.

It would be GREAT to be able to offer a high speed brain as a rental item for other foks who have Epic systems -

And since you are modular - why not make your own MONSTER RAM RAID with GigE offload??

Don't worry Mitch ... I know they wont make it fast enough and I'm 90% going to buy a Phantom from you anyway -:w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

Sven Seynaeve

11-15-2008, 08:51 AM

I would love this option as well...

P Andersson

11-15-2008, 09:19 AM

And an ultra high iso brain with larger sites and less resolution, say FF3K at ISO 28K

Jeff Kilgroe

11-15-2008, 11:02 AM

I'd buy it.

Stacey Spears

11-15-2008, 11:13 AM

Until this thread, the idea of renting a brain did not really click.

You buy the brain and accessories that you can afford and get the most use out of. You need more capability for a job? No problem, just rent a different brain. You have the rest, so this is an easy swap for a job. When the job is done, return the rental brain and go back to your normal brain.

Sorry to derail the thread.

Bruce Allen

11-15-2008, 11:36 AM

And I would rent it from you guys.

So would the company I work for. We just did the Food Network rebrand and it is 95% Phantom footage (and some HV20 ;).

Maybe we should start making a list of original, cinematic slow-mo stuff to get Jim motivated...

How about the beginning of the new Watchmen trailer to kick it off?
http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?sid=75031208&sdm=web&pt=rd

On total opposite indie end of the spectrum, here's a music video my buddy Christian directed that I was vfx super / colorist for. Shot in half a day on the old 800x600 Phantom. Total budget under $2500 I think.
http://www.vimeo.com/828124

Personally I am very interested in shooting 1000fps for vfx purposes. If you have lights that you can sync to the high speed shutter then you can relight in post.

I think there are a LOT of possibilities there for incredibly creative groundbreaking stuff.

Take a look at the video, from about 1/3rd of the way in.
http://gl.ict.usc.edu/Research/RHL/

While you're looking into it, having an easy way for indies to keep the damn lights in perfect sync with the camera would be nice ;)

Doesn't need to be as ambitious as that crazy lighting ball of course.

If RED can make it stupid-easy for us to sync lights to the camera at very high speeds it'd be a game-changer.

I think it'd be used in a lot more feature films, music videos, commercials, etc than a Linhof-format camera would. And it'd be used in more interesting and creative ways too.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Jeff Kilgroe

11-15-2008, 12:12 PM

Until this thread, the idea of renting a brain did not really click.

Really? Well, anyway... I think the whole modularity approach is just perfect for a rental brain application. Think about it... The accessories are all compatible across the DSMC line. You buy the brain that best fits your every day needs and budget. Then if you have need for one of the bigger ones, you rent it and drop it right into your system.

I would love a ultra high frame rate brain. I would use it occasionally, but I could rent it out like crazy.

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-15-2008, 12:36 PM

What about a REDHead type of... *Brain* :), like the SI2K-Mini.

Just the head which feeds a dedicated laptop which takes care of processing?

Jannard

11-15-2008, 12:52 PM

Kholi Hicks

11-15-2008, 12:59 PM

Marks and Bruce have got a point. A valid one, at that. Our company has done a number of Phantom shoots in the past two months. It could only get better if the image were coming from something as sweet as a RED camera.

I'd rent it.

Greg M

11-15-2008, 01:01 PM

2k up to 1000fps, I would order one.

Mark L. Pederson

11-15-2008, 01:11 PM

What kind of format size/frame rate do you need?

Jim

2K 1000fps is the slam dunk - however, 500fps is pretty damn extreme.

Since it's a module - you can choose a OLPF, processing power, etc. just to pull off the frame rates - EVEN if you can't get that into REDCODE in real time - it still would rock -

in fact ...

how about a big ram-raid buffer - that then crunches to REDCODE in the background?

Michael Lindsay

11-15-2008, 01:16 PM

2k up to 1000fps, I would order one.

2k? pixel count or measured?

and oversized 3k (pixel count) that could run at up to 600fps would get my wallet open.

regards

Michael

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-15-2008, 01:17 PM

Shouldn't it be 3K for 2K DeBayered? :mellow:

Mark L. Pederson

11-15-2008, 01:18 PM

Shouldn't it be 3K for 2K DeBayered? :mellow:

YES - 3K would be the move.

C.H.Haskell

11-15-2008, 01:21 PM

I am game. Meaning I would def rent this brain from you Mark...

Jonathon Laing

11-15-2008, 01:34 PM

I think this is an awsome idea. For RED and for its customers. Id buy one.

Daniel Reichenbach

11-15-2008, 01:35 PM

A lot of food stuff/sports for commercials ASO needs 500-1000p, 2K is good 3K better of course. I used a phantom and a bit of RED222 to shoot this:
http://elementp.ch/de/portfolio/commercial/bernaqua.php
Would be great to have a EPIC with this possibilities.

Jeff Kilgroe

11-15-2008, 01:36 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here a bit more... I think 3K @ 1000fps would be the slam-dunk. That would give much sharper 2K/1080p output. Any resolutions higher than that would be gravy. A 3K S35mm EPIC that shoots 1-1000fps would be sweeet.

Anything over 1000fps is purely for technical applications, IMO. And Vision Research already makes a wide range of cameras to accommodate this market.

On the other end of the spectrum, I'm really hoping that EPIC and Scarlet will have some capacity to do long exposure work as well.

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-15-2008, 01:44 PM

An out-of-the world Scarlet. :)

Wow, the sky is the limit for RED.

I think that's a great idea.

Bruce Allen

11-15-2008, 01:46 PM

2K 1000fps is the slam dunk - however, 500fps is pretty damn extreme.

Agree. For broadcast work I think 500fps is fine if it's 1080p or higher and we can rent for a killer day rate.

There are and always will be an ARMY of hair / soap / detergent commercials being shot at any given time.

They pay well.

Red owners need the odd well-paying soap ad from time to time.

in fact ...

how about a big ram-raid buffer - that then crunches to REDCODE in the background?

That's what the Scarlet's 180fps burst mode was, wasn't it? Hope it's still there.

To do it right, you have a ram buffer where you can either hit record at the beginning OR the end of what you shot.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Steve Gibby

11-15-2008, 01:57 PM

I've been watching the new Discovery Channel HD series "Time Warp", in which the hosts use science and a Phantom to shoot lots of cool tests (bullets, fireworks, etc.) in super slo-mo to demo to the viewer what really happens in a fast-happening event. Its is fun series - technically and aesthetically.

We've traditionally used a lot of high frame rates for slo-mos in the television programs we do on sports and nature. A higher frame rate camera to dovetail with Epic would be a welcome addition for that - think of the slo-mo aesthetics of NFL Films and Planet Earth.

I also think such a camera would do well in the television commercials industry.

I've emphasized the need for good slo-mo capabilities to RED Team at several junctures in the past three years.

Leo Ticheli

11-15-2008, 02:00 PM

Another bell-ringer for Mark!

I would think there could be a huge market for a high-speed Brain. We could so easily add ultra high speed shots simply by connecting the HS Brain to a system we are already totally comfortable with.

The rental charge should be fairly low and no expert tech would be required.

It just keeps getting better and better!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

Bruce Allen

11-15-2008, 02:03 PM

We've traditionally used a lot of high frame rates for slo-mos in the television programs we do on sports and nature. A higher frame rate camera to dovetail with Epic would be a welcome addition for that - think NFL Films aesthetics.

I also think such a camera would do well in the television commercials industry.

What the heck, Gibby? We're not supposed to be agreeing with each other publicly ;) BTW your backpack recommendation saved our ass in Japan.

I agree with Jeff too - a 3K 1000fps option would be awesome for features, vfx, etc.

It would also mean the next RED reel would be packed with gob-smacking slow-mo "hero shots" from big features with $100,000 worth of VFX added to the shot to sweeten it up. Might help you sell an extra camera or two.

But I think the greatest market right now is all of that broadcast stuff. Which doesn't need to be at quite as high a quality (witness my sneaking in HV20 footage all the time ;).

EDIT: Oh, and latitude is very important. Because:
a) it's more unpredictable than normal shooting and too fast for humans to rack iris
and
b) often you're making a mess. And sometimes your're breaking things. So it sucks doing things over. And sometimes you're filming wildlife. Which is impossible to predict or repeat ("oh damn that critter ran into a frikkin' shade patch instead of the sunlight").

Maybe Monstro with it's high DR would be a good fit? Probably Mysterium X is too far down the line too?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Mark Toia

11-15-2008, 02:06 PM

Mr RED J annard...
You build a S35 BRAIN that can do 4k 200fps, 3k 500fps, 2k1000fps or close to these numbers for about 45k, I'll promise you I'll buy 3 off you the day you announce it.

Love ya work man

Mark L. Pederson

11-15-2008, 02:08 PM

Cüneyt Kaya

11-15-2008, 02:08 PM

Steve Gibby

11-15-2008, 02:12 PM

What the heck, Gibby? We're not supposed to be agreeing with each other publicly ;) BTW your backpack recommendation saved our ass in Japan.

I agree with Jeff too - a 3K 1000fps option would be awesome for features, vfx, etc.

It would also mean the next RED reel would be packed with gob-smacking slow-mo "hero shots" from big features with $100,000 worth of VFX added to the shot to sweeten it up. Might help you sell an extra camera or two.

But I think the greatest market right now is all of that broadcast stuff. Which doesn't need to be at quite as high a quality (witness my sneaking in HV20 footage all the time ;).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

LOL - yeah, what are we doing? We may not always agree, but we definitely have some common ground here :w00t:

Glad the backpacks worked out for you...they're an inexpensive fix to a common problem.

Yes, even an HV20 in pro hands can be a potent paint brush.

I agree that broadcast, VFX, and commercials would be sweet zones for a high FPS Epic.

Peace...

Tom Lowe

11-15-2008, 02:23 PM

3K @ 1K... :) I like it!!!

Häakon

11-15-2008, 05:08 PM

Shouldn't it be 3K for 2K DeBayered? :mellow:
This is incredibly key.

Andreas Fernbrant

11-15-2008, 05:20 PM

I'm quite sure you could put me up for a rent.
This is a really good idea!

I Bloom

11-15-2008, 11:04 PM

Well,

Instead of a brain, could it be possible to build a RAM buffer module that connects to any brain, giving it a major framerate increase.

Maybe you need another sensor entirely... but if not a RAM module would be my vote.

IBloom

Deanan

11-15-2008, 11:21 PM

Jeff Butcher

11-15-2008, 11:33 PM

This thread proves why Red is amazing. Someone posts a new idea and we have not only the head honcho himself actually listening and most likely actually thinking of a way to make this happen. This also shows how strong the new modular system is. Right now with my experience so many people have the camera body (R1) and try to rent lenses/aks. This seems to have disrupted many rental houses. I personally have run into some places that dont want to rent aks without renting a body with fear that someone may rent a body and they will be short the aks they need. In my case I plan on the 2/3 Scarlet and and all the aks i can afford and ill rent an Epic or better brain necessary for paid gigs and sure hope there will be an HS Brain for rent in the future.

Poi Boy

11-16-2008, 01:22 AM

I've always wanted a high speed brain !
Seriously good idea, 3K at 500fps.

Beautiful music video Bruce, loved it.
Aloha
-A

Andreas Fernbrant

11-16-2008, 04:25 AM

I posted from way before RED ONE about the:
imager direct to ram buffer - and then a slow push to storage through processing.
But I don't know if that works.

It would mean you have to wait for it to process slower then real time. But I could live with that.

JanneJansson

11-16-2008, 05:22 AM

It's a number of things that would need to be increased 5x (sensor, bandwidth, processing, etc).

The cool part is that the camera is not built yet, so you have the power to make an design that is flexible enough to handle every (almost) request :)

If the camera and the other modules all share some sort of common transport bus, and each module take/send the data they need, you got a mini-network going in the cam, and also the potential to make new module that can do anything possible. Who knows, if you make the data-bus- an open/licensed protocol, other companies can make modules for it too. Or RED can sell empty programmable/flash-able FPGA units to be programmed to do anything.

Just look at common existing data bus network that exist today. 10Gb ethernet, Infiniband, pcie, pcix... :)

To make a 8, 16, or 32 GB RAM buffer for highspeed filming would be a straight forward process. Just read the data feed from the brain, REDCODE encodes or not, and then send it to the drive or to an REDCODE engine before that.

..got that warm feeling that I'm pissing in some ones pool again..
I apologize :)

Cheers

Larry Gebhardt

11-16-2008, 05:55 AM

Dear Jim...

This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I owe part of my career to the Photo-Sonics company for making their various cameras...I have shot tons and tons of slo-mo over the years, starting (a long time ago) with shooting skiing for Warren Miller and others.

Here is a spot that I still have on my reel even though it is getting kinda old, "How Does it Feel to Fly" www.velocity.tv/howdoesitfeeltofly600x400.htm. The side shot of the diver, overhead (sun) shot and water entry shot were at 400 fps. (It was the opening for the Olympic High Diving competition on NBC). This spot still gets the most compliments of anything on my reel.

I believe I am fairly well qualified to speak about slo-mo frame rates.

I feel that 98% of our (ok- my) slo-mo needs would be satisfied by a camera that could do 3k at up to 400-500 fps (Think Actionmaster 500). I rarely have used cameras that shoot frame rates higher than that. When I need something above 500 fps, I usually need to go way above it to several thousand fps (the bullet going thru the 100 meter dash tape at the end of the "Fastest Man on Earth" spot on my reel (above link-click on "back to Our Work") was shot at 10,000 fps).

So, this is my thinking...the 200 fps (at 2K) EPIC spec is really great, and we all thank you for that. But to make a real visual difference beyond that frame rate, I feel we need to get to 400-500 fps, and then it jumps to 1000 or above.

So...if you could make a Slo-Mo EPIC brain that would shoot 400 fps at 3k (as a minimum…anything over that would be terrific), I can sell my closet full of Photo-Sonic gear...(6-1VN's, two Actionmaster 500's, two 4ML's...anyone want to buy any?), and buy some more of your stuff.

...after you sell your Photo-Sonics of course.

Thanks for listening.

Larry Gebhardt

Sven Seynaeve

11-16-2008, 06:42 AM

500fps @ 4K would be perfect

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-16-2008, 06:48 AM

Seems that Vision Research will soon be in trouble too. :biggrin:

Arnaud Paris

11-16-2008, 06:56 AM

LocaRed in Paris could also definitely be in the game for getting a few $45k camera that can do 3k 500fps. Great idea Mark.

This thread is going to end up as a group purchase one more time, except this time we do it even before the product exists. Wonder why we love Red...

Now can we start talking about what kind of car we would like to buy from you in two years? (no need to mention the color).

Matt Uhry

11-16-2008, 07:02 AM

This is a good idea. It would be great to have a super high speed integrate easily on set and in post with an Epic shoot.

I'm starting to see real benefits in this modular camera system.

Sweet video Bruce, BTW. Christians other work ( at least the Pop Levi clip ) is really cool too.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Justin O'Neill

11-16-2008, 10:52 AM

Jim, it definitely feels weird asking for more after we have just had our minds blown on the 13th, but I agree 100% with Mark.

Modular now seems so logical and renting a whole Phantom system seems archaic when you could swap in a slow mo EPIC brain instead. I know you guys said you would rather leave specialty features to other companies but no one else is offering anything close to the convenience of the brain system!

I would definitely buy a couple of these.

Petr Dvorak

11-16-2008, 06:27 PM

Seems that Vision Research will soon be in trouble too. :biggrin:

..nope

kel whelan

11-16-2008, 08:27 PM

Hi.

Generally a read-only kinda guy as I'm way out of my league on this stuff, but I registered to keep an eye on the high speed development.

I'm nowhere near a cinema videographer - a little home videocam level throwing things together on the consumer/prosumer level...
Which news of Scarlet brought me over here in the first place, kinda hoping it might turn out to be a super-HD prosumer camcorder. Looks like it's going to be way out of the user-friendly market there after all, but the hints that it might be high speed at those resolutions kinda made me notice for another purpose. For the work end of things, I've got an Olympus i-speed camera to capture firearm events: If RED ever did something that could capture high speed clips in non-grainy, rich color, and high definition, that would be something I'd be in line for.

Just thought I'd pop in to mention to those that listen that the high speed video market (Phantom, i-speed, etc) would go nuts over something like this.

KW

Jannard

11-16-2008, 08:43 PM

The Phantom is a great camera that does specialized work. I don't see us replacing what they do in the near future. If our frame rates continue to climb at a normal pace, someday we might provide an option. But I also don't imagine Vision Research staying where they are going forward. There will never be one company that offers every solution. Actually, there will never be 3 companies that cover all the bases. I just hope that RED can continue to be one of many companies that helps people realize their dreams.

Jim

Billy Summers

11-16-2008, 08:47 PM

I absolutely LOVE shooting with the phantom
It always looks so magical and expensive!

Never really expected RED to pull out something in this range of fps...

It could simplify some of the operational and workflow issues that go along with shooting Phantom but...

A Director I've shot Phantom with a number of times says: "High speed is like crack, at first, a thousand frames a second feels great...but then you need more, more, more like 1500-3000":usd:

Jared Caldwell

11-16-2008, 09:11 PM

I just hope that RED can continue to be one of many companies that helps people realize their dreams.

Jim

Not to try to placate you, but if you keep going with this direction, you will definitely be doing this for me. I have been on cloud 9 since the 13th, and haven't come off of it since. Thank you so much! :}

Mitch Gross

11-16-2008, 09:13 PM

Certainly a high speed Epic is possible, but it necessitates a lot of technology that is not currently in the design (or at least that I assume is in the design). It's not in there because RED has optimised the design for something else. If you make a camera capable of the sort of frame rates and resolutions we're talking about, you're essentially talking about creating a completely new camera. Not saying that RED couldn't do it; given their track record the smart answer is certainly they can. But it is a LOT of work and they have chosen to push in a different direction, and smartly so I'd say.

Listen, what you're really asking here is for Jim to make a less-expensive Phantom. Not really to innovate, just to make it cheaper. RED has not particularly worked by making less expensive versions of other companies' products; RED tries to turn the industry on its ear by releasing something revolutionary and different. Cheaper ain't a revolution, it's just cheaper.

Given time, I'm sure RED will get you what you want. And I'm sure Vision Research and perhaps others will have moved that bar forward. And so it goes.

Mark baby, time to reserve your Phantom!

Darren Orange

11-16-2008, 09:43 PM

Well....if 3D is there couldn't you sync two cameras and set them up so they capture the same frame while alternating frames....so 100fps with one could go to 200fps with two with the right setup. Am I making sense?

Mitch Gross

11-16-2008, 09:51 PM

It's possible but only with very specific frame sync pulses beyond standard genlock. For instance the Phantom has sync pulses not only for the start of each frame but a separate signal noting the duration, both very important for such a system. You'd also need a 3D rig that could allow a zero degree convergence, meaning a half/silvered mirror rig where the two cameras were identically aligned. This of course would also eat another stop of light.

Again, all not impossible with RED, but functions not currently available on the RED One so perhaps not envisioned for the EPIC.

Jannard

11-16-2008, 10:12 PM

FMG battery

11-16-2008, 10:51 PM

I just hope that RED can continue to be one of many companies that helps people realize their dreams.

Jimas many people as possible my friend JJ.. for this quote you receive capital letters.. :love:

Mitch Gross

11-16-2008, 10:51 PM

Go for it, Jim. I remember when I first proposed the idea of using a 3D rig to double a Phantom's speed using two cameras and the mechanical answer to what was perceived as an electronic limitation registered somewhat stunned reactions. I think one person commented, "well that's lateral thinking."

But just because something can be done doesn't mean many people are ever going to do it. I know a few clients have considered the suggestion but I don't know if anyone ever actually used it on a job. It makes for quite the post nightmare as all the files have to be zippered into a single sequence.

FMG battery

11-16-2008, 10:53 PM

red for masses as much as ever.. instead an elitist company would rock more than ever!

Mitch Gross

11-16-2008, 11:01 PM

red for masses as much as ever.. instead an elitist company would rock more than ever!

???????

Craig Ryan

11-16-2008, 11:05 PM

Since this discussion is about high speed, I thought I'd bring up something that's been discussed here before regarding overcranking for miniature work; does anyone remember what the equation is to calculate fps based on the scale of the miniature?

And, I wonder what kind of scale we'd be talking for say, 500-1000fps miniature work?

Poi Boy

11-16-2008, 11:50 PM

If you go with modular design as a system concept, with different brains for different functions, then a high speed version is inevitable. Come on Jim, it is a no brainer, you guys can and should do it.
Aloha
-A

FMG battery

11-17-2008, 12:06 AM

???????sorry.. i forgot the parentesis.. :)

red for masses as much as ever.. (instead an elitist company)
would rock more than ever!

Jeff Kilgroe

11-17-2008, 09:27 AM

I think they should do it and I know that eventually we will see 1000fps from a RED camera. Whether it gets done via a high-speed brain or the continuous evolution of their sensors and underlying electronics to boost those frame rates, remains to be seen.

I like this thread because it does show that there is a real market for such a product. But I understand where Jim is coming from. It's also pretty obvious after the 11/13 announcements, that the plates are pretty full over at RED these days.

Steve Gibby

11-17-2008, 09:46 AM

I agree Jeff. I'm way happy with the specs, modularity, and flexibility of the new DSMC line - both Epic and Scarlet. What RED has announced is fantastic IMO - and yes, as usual they have a ton on their development plate.

I have no doubt higher frame rate REDs will appear sometime in the future - how far into the future, and how high FPS will remain to be seen. There is obviously a market for high FPS work, in commercials, EFX, television, stock footage, and some feature specialty shots.

In my own work genres slo-mos are a staple of the productions - sports, nature, etc. 100 fps in 5k or 6k, played back on a 24 fps timeline, is going to look stunning. 200 fps is probably the upper limit for most slo-mos in the genres I work in. Higher than that gets into the useful zone for certain commercials, specialty TV programs ("Timewarp" on Discovery Channel), certain VFX, scientific uses, etc.

I'm way happy with the currently announced specs for Epic and Scarlet, and if optimization brings higher fps, then thats frosting on the cake. If RED at some point created an ultra high fps upgrade option I would also take a hard look at that - if I could have enough use for it. If not, I'd simply rent it when I needed it.

I've been a vocal proponent of high frame rates on RED products ever since RED was announced in 2005, so this request for high frame rates is nothing new to me - been down that road for a long time.

Phil Bates

11-17-2008, 01:19 PM

I agree that the 1000fps Epic brain would be attractive, but what would the distraction cost? What other innovative things would sit on the shelf just to get another Phantom-like camera?

Phil
http://www.artbeats.com

Tim Lüdin

11-17-2008, 01:49 PM

A highspeed brain would be killer.
I also think 500fps at 3K could be possible in the near future and would be
the next usefull step.
I'm sure that the "RED3" generation (in 4years) will probably do 500fps in 4-6K. But now we dont have such an option.
A special brain would be the answer.
The new modular system is great for that. Soon all RED users will know the workflow and bodies and we wont have to change camerasystems on set.
Would be super great.

Go guys, you can do it, we know it...

Tim

Mark L. Pederson

11-17-2008, 02:02 PM

Mark baby, time to reserve your Phantom!

I know ... I know ... I just wanted to start a little fire :devil:

Obin Olson

11-17-2008, 02:05 PM

1000fps no less is what's needed, even 2000fps would be great, and I agree what we need is crystal clear 1080p, I think that would be shooting at 3k correct for a pixel perfect 1080p donwsize?

I have shot at 2000fps and 1kfps, both VERY cool

Patrick Tresch

11-17-2008, 02:08 PM

If 25fps is possible in 28k.

Why 500fps wouldn't be in 3k?

;-)

Jaime Vallés

11-17-2008, 02:11 PM

They are now... :-)

Jim
Awesome. The idea of using an S35 Scarlet brain for day to day, and renting a high-speed Epic brain (that still works with all the same accessories in the Scarlet system) is phenomenal. Just swap brains, shoot hi-speed, swap back. BOOM! :w00t:

Of course, this hi-speed Epic brain is a specialty item, and should be priced accordingly. The real savings come from not needing other accessories to make the rental work with your current system!

jon erwin

11-17-2008, 08:32 PM

I would say a brain that can do 4K up to 250fps, 3K up to 500fps, 2K up to 1000fps would be awesome! Much rather use a RED than a Phantom:-D

Michael Brennan

11-18-2008, 05:22 AM

Having used digital slo mo cams since there inception I've learnt that key frame rates exist for particular genres.
In general one has to double the frame rate to make a discernable difference
50,100,200,500,1000,2000,4000fps

A lot of very cool action can be captured at +2000, ie a bigger close-up of an particular explosive action can be screened if you double the frame rate.

But the issue of needing significant amounts of light means that around 1000 fps is the available light limit for docs.

Maybe RED could bring to the party a large format high speed sensor with extra large pixels creating a very high iso?
This camera could also double up as a low light brian?

There is an amazing world of low light colour imagery and super slow motion that we are only beginning to explore.

Mike Brennan

Michael Lindsay

11-18-2008, 06:10 AM

Mike makes a very good point...

Once you step out the world of common human action his formula is a good rule of thumb.

I've watched inexperience directors not get this on film shoots a number of times. Rushes viewing not a pleasant experience for them (funny in a told-you-so-way for me)

regards

Michael

Mark L. Pederson

11-18-2008, 06:46 AM

Maybe RED could bring to the party a large format high speed sensor with extra large pixels creating a very high iso?
This camera could also double up as a low light brian?

Mike Brennan

Bingo.

J. Eric Camp

11-18-2008, 08:01 AM

Circle gets the square.

This would be great. Now thats easy for me to say sitting here in my chair. The RED teams chair is much less comfy.

But yes (my humble take on it would be) take a EPIC FF35 or 675 size chip, make it a 4k or 5k chip with big photosites to make it more sensitive and end up with 3k 500fps, 2k 1000fps at maybe a clean 640asa. The simple brain swap would be great. Vision Research is a high speed monster. THey are going to stay the high speed monster. As Mitch, Deanan and Jim have stated you give things up to get other things. I am happy with the direction RED has gone with their cameras and sensors, and happy with where the Phantom is as well. I personally am comfortable with the RED cameras, more so than a Phantom (if there was some free Phantom training, maybe my comfort level would change. Mitch I am looking at you.) so a brain swap would be ideal for basic applications.

Tim Fassnacht

11-24-2008, 10:56 AM

....I just hope that RED can continue to be one of many companies that helps people realize their dreams.

Jim

Cheers to that Jim, thanks for helping me realize mine.

Mark K.

11-28-2008, 08:05 PM

Having seen the Phantom at work, it's an incredible machine that takes beautiful pictures. But I could see a lot of appeal in a high-speed brain, that could be simply switched in with a regular brain for specialised work. I'd never buy one myself, but I can certainly see myself renting one for specific shots on a regular basis.

The main advantage of it would be (assuming you're shooting with Red cameras in the first place) that you'd be dealing with the same RedCode format, which would certain help streamline the post-processing of high-speed shots in with the rest of your footage.

Jason Sinclair

11-29-2008, 04:14 AM

The best of the best redusers are all here with a suggestion... It's a sure bet.

JohnF

12-02-2008, 05:28 AM

If it hasn't been mentioned yet I'll throw my request in...

It would be great if there was an affordable 1000fps camera out there that recorded to digital mags (like REDDRIVES) that could be swapped between takes instead of waiting six minutes or so for downloading. Directors and producers simply don't comprehend this time when warned beforehand and tear their hair out during the shoot - that they scheduled as if for a traditional 24fps shoot!

I known the Phantom apparently has such a facility though they cost a fair bit that, for budgetary reasons, restricts the number of clients that would welcome the chance of 500fps+. The "machine vision" type cameras out there could also have such a feature but for reasons that are simply beyond me don't have.

My other request would be, if it were at all technically possible, why not try for a 4k 150fps+ with a windowed 2k 500-1000fps? Yeah, I know this would make the tech boys and girls sweat but it would be a fantastic option...

JohnF