I'm still confused about the media.....

[istvanttt]

I still live with some confusion about the media. I wish to thank RED for the different opportunities they give us, but it would love to make my final order for the accessories. And the end October is not so far away anymore. I put the list with comments about what I may have understood till now and what I definitely don’t know yet. Sorry if some of this has been already answered somewhere else, but I have the feeling to understand only parts of a puzzle and not the whole thing

- RED DRIVE 320GB
Download to laptop via Firewire
I think the 2 HDs are in RAID0 configuration
Q: if yes then why? for speed issues?
Q: can I buy in my own HD and insert them into the cage/cabinet in the future, to rise the memory?

- RED RAM 64GB,
basically the same questions like with the DRIVE 320
Download to laptop via Firewire
I think the 2 SSDs are in RAID0 configuration
Q: if yes then why? for speed issues?
Q: can I buy in my own SSD and insert them into the cage/cabinet in the future, to rise the memory?

- RED FLASH (CF)
Standard flash card like we use since years with laptops
Download: insert the card into the PCMCIA slot of the laptop
Q: are they really fast enough?

- RED FLASH (EX34)
Reading around in the internet I learned that they are very fast because they are somehow linked closer to the main memory-bus
The new Apple laptops use them, also Sony marries them somewhere
Q: am I right that the max memory is currently around 16GB and it is not expected to rise so quickly (quickly means within 1 year)

RED 1.8” SATA
Everybody predicts a big future for them
Q: is a single unit fast enough
Q: maybe I didn't look well enough, but apparently they have different sizes
Q: how can we download the data to the laptop, there is no build in Firewire

Again, I apologize for the possible repetitions
Thanks
Istvan

[donatello b]

adding questions

can the RED Ram record faster fps then Red Drive ?
can Red Flash (ex34) or Red 1/8 Sata record faster fps then Red Drive ?

[Rob Lohman]

As has been answered before: no media can record slower faster than any other (with the exception of RED-RAID connecting to the RAW port).

The limitation is in the compression, not in the drives.

[istvanttt]

OK, this means that the Drive and the RED RAM are linked together not because of the speed, but to get more memory used.

And this means also that the normal CF-card is fast enough, right?

Perfect,

but then there are still the other questions open:
-can I change the media myself (HD in the RED-Drive, SSD units in the RED-RAM)
-how will I download from the data from the 1.8 SATA module?

Thanks
Istvan

[Jeff Kilgroe]

- RED DRIVE 320GB
Download to laptop via Firewire
I think the 2 HDs are in RAID0 configuration
Q: if yes then why? for speed issues?
Q: can I buy in my own HD and insert them into the cage/cabinet in the future, to rise the memory?

Yes - RAID 0 for one continuous striped, high-speed volume.

No - You can not use your own HDDs - or at least not without breaking open the unit and voiding the warranty on it. You know someone is going to do this almost immediately after release, just to see if it can be done.

To be honest, I don't see a huge future with the RED DRIVE beyond the first year or two of the RED One's lifespan. My comments below will elaborate on this further.


- RED RAM 64GB,
basically the same questions like with the DRIVE 320
Download to laptop via Firewire
I think the 2 SSDs are in RAID0 configuration
Q: if yes then why? for speed issues?
Q: can I buy in my own SSD and insert them into the cage/cabinet in the future, to rise the memory?

Yes, 2.5" SSDs in a RAID-0 config. The unit is the same as the RED DRIVE, but sold with high-speed SSD units. Same answers as above. I wouldn't recommend early adopters buy the RED RAM unless they have a specific need for it and the extra reliability right off. ...I would definitely consider RED RAM if there's lots of vehicle mount shooting or the camera will be continuously bumped, moved quickly, rolled, or subjected to vibration. But much larger and faster SSDs are about to hit the market and by the end of the year, RED should have several options available to them to make a RED RAM that is at least 256GB and under $2500. The 320GB RED DRIVE as it is can record approximately 3.25 hours of 4K REDCODE RAW.. That's a lot for one storage device. A 256GB RED RAM would be a lot more reliable and still give 2.5 hours of record time. The mobile computer / notebook computer market is about to jump on the SSD bandwagon and once 2.5" SSDs go mainstream at capacities of 128GB and larger (think end of this year), the current thoughts on storage will change. Obviously, it's best to buy the storage options that fit your needs when you need them. If you don't get your RED until late this year or even next year, options will definitely change by then. Or at least I would hope so.


- RED FLASH (CF)
Standard flash card like we use since years with laptops
Download: insert the card into the PCMCIA slot of the laptop
Q: are they really fast enough?

These are Compact FLASH (CF) and NOT PCMCIA. They go into a CF card slot and are currently used by many digital cameras and multimedia devices. I suppose that inserting them in a PCMCIA slot will be possible if you have a proper adapter. Newer cards are fast enough... 32GB and larger NAND based CF cards will be what's used and we'll have to see which ones RED tests and recommends for use, but it looks like Samsung and SanDisk will have some that fit the bill. Samsung is the current leading producer of NAND FLASH chips anyway, so chances are that there will be Samsung NAND chips inside of whatever FLASH solution you end up with. The current SSDs inside of RED RAM are more than likely made by Addtron or PQI, but we're just guessing there. Could be contracted by someone else entirely.


- RED FLASH (EX34)
Reading around in the internet I learned that they are very fast because they are somehow linked closer to the main memory-bus
The new Apple laptops use them, also Sony marries them somewhere
Q: am I right that the max memory is currently around 16GB and it is not expected to rise so quickly (quickly means within 1 year)

ExpressCard FLASH. This is going to be a good option... Way better than CF, IMO. ExpressCard is the new mobile peripheral card standard that is replacing PCMCIA. It is already available on new Macbook Pro computers as well as many newer PC notebook systems. Sony is using ExpressCard media for their new XDCAM EX FLASH camcorders. 16GB EC34 media is commonly available right now (not sure which ones actually are fast enough for RED). 32GB is just around the corner (like CF media) and capacities will grow faster than CF media because the card are over double the size and can physically hold more circuitry and chips inside.


RED 1.8” SATA
Everybody predicts a big future for them
Q: is a single unit fast enough
Q: maybe I didn't look well enough, but apparently they have different sizes
Q: how can we download the data to the laptop, there is no build in Firewire


This format is just a 1.8" SATA SSD. It will most likely grow in capacity the fastest due to its size and these units will be used in everything from upcoming iPods and compact notebook PC systems to camcorders. Connectivity is an issue and there will need to be some form of convenient docking solution for these SSD units in order to read them. I'm sure RED has this mapped out as do others since RED is not the only company pitching 1.8" SSD as an interchangeable storage media.

I'm sure RED will make sure all FLASH devices they certify will be fast enough to record all on-board REDCODE modes. The FLASH modules as well as the RED DRIVE and RED RAM connect via eSATA. I don't believe that any FLASH options will offer any additional record modes or higher frame rates as the limiting factor is the processors within the camera and not the storage. Perhaps for future revisions of the RED camera, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Since the RED One can record to both RED DRIVE and the attached FLASH module at the same time. I have a request for an additional accessory. In addition to a FLASH module or the RAW Port, could RED also offer a mount plate or good way to attach a RED DRIVE / RED RAM to that side of the camera in that location and use that interface? Then we could use two RED DRIVEs or two RED RAMs simultaneously and have a primary and a back-up of what we shoot already made. I've also wondered if it's possible to daisy-chain RED DRIVEs to create duplicate copies while shooting.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hmm... Brook should add this one to the FAQ. ;)

[IAN SUN]

Thanks Jeff, your willingness to share your knowledge and expertise is highly appreciated.

[istvanttt]

Yes, thanks indeed Jeff!! I have the things more clear now.

Personally as far as I don't really belive in recording hours of footage without downloading and controling and back-up-ing again and again:) I will go with the express flash and later with the 1.8 Sata module. It will dipend which one will be faster in download and back-up.

Thanks again for your help
Istvan

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I will go with the express flash and later with the 1.8 Sata module. It will dipend which one will be faster in download and back-up.

Backup or read/write speed will probably be very similar or even the same between the 1.8" SSD and the EC34 FLASH. I'm anxious to see RED's workflow for the 1.8" SSD FLASH media and how that works out. The EC34 right now seems like the most user-friendly as you can just pop the FLASH card out of the camera and insert it directly into a Macbook Pro or EC capable PC notebook. No adapters, no fuss, no mess, no cords...

[number6]

Backup or read/write speed will probably be very similar or even the same between the 1.8" SSD and the EC34 FLASH. I'm anxious to see RED's workflow for the 1.8" SSD FLASH media and how that works out. The EC34 right now seems like the most user-friendly as you can just pop the FLASH card out of the camera and insert it directly into a Macbook Pro or EC capable PC notebook. No adapters, no fuss, no mess, no cords...

I'm in need of some schooling here, also. I'm just curious about the Express Card route. For instance, my Dell Inspiron has a 54 Express Card Slot. I purchased a Silicon Image Pro E54 PCIe Raid card to slip in. I then connected two eSATA II Seagate 10 series (Perpendicular Recording) HDDs of 320 GBs each, and then configured them in a RAID 0.

I haven't seen the RED in person... not even the RED movie (DVD) or even read the entire RED book that is on the RED site or this forum. I'm just saying that if the image I have in my mind is correct, I could transfer my card over to the RED express card slot, and if it had the proper drivers to accommodate a SIIG E54 card, I could use my oun HDDs through my Express Card slot? No?

[number6]

O.K., just noticed that the RED has an EC34 slot. But what if some company makes a PCIe card that will do what the current 54 card does? Would my option work in theory? And could RED maybe consider hurting their oun RED RAID sales, and make that card slot a 54?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

ExpressCard comes in two variations - 34 and 54. They're actually the exact same thing except the 54 is a wider slot. The number is the width of the slot in mm. EC34 cards can be inserted into an EC54 slot, but obviously not the other way around. Many PC makers are jumping on the EC54 bandwagon to provide for more flexibility. The larger form factor also gives device makers more room to work when building peripheral cards.

And what you're thinking with the EC RAID card connected to standard HDDs, and plugging that card into a RED One... It's not going to work. First and foremost, the RED isn't going to have the software to interface with such a RAID card. RED would need to offer a software development kit (SDK) and then someone would have to create proper driver software for such a a RAID card. Additionally, I doubt the ExpressCard slot on the EC FLASH module is a full functional EC slot. It / the module connects to the camera via serial ATA. It's going to be able to access conventional ExpressCard storage and that's it.

As for using cheaper HDD solutions, I'm sure that some will appear. However, I wouldn't count on many being cheaper than the RED DRIVE. Try and make a robust and compact enclosure with internal RAID controller, external FW800, USB2 and eSATA interfaces and see how cheap you can sell them. I don't see much in the way of price gouging going on here...

OTOH, the interface for the RED DRIVE / RED RAM appears to be standard eSATA bundled with power over a LEMO cable. If you're cable making skills are decent and you don't mind taking the time to discover the pin-out of the RED LEMO cable, there's no reason you couldn't make your own LEMO to eSATA+power cable that could connect to off the shelf eSATA storage solutions. Not that I'm recommending such a thing... Personally, I'd rather just buy a few RED DRIVEs and go shoot something.

[Steve Gibby]

Excellent input Jeff...

[Scott Webster]

Thanks Jeff great post. Is there a table with the record options and time on media offered?

Engadget have info on the Lexar Express card rollout (http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/02/lexar-rolls-out-4gb-8gb-and-16gb-expresscard-ssds/)

[Hans von Sonntag]

Reduser is a valuable source. These kind of digital gadget thingies which I never used before are now going to be my film mag... Wild world. Thanks Jeff for your knowledge!

Hans

[Rob Lohman]

And this means also that the normal CF-card is fast enough, right?

First you have to define 'normal'. Keep in mind it needs to be able to do over 30 MB/s.

[Luke Boyce]

where can you find 16 gb ec34 cards?

[Jaime Vallés]

where can you find 16 gb ec34 cards?

They've just been announced, so I don't think you can get one right now, but you'll be able to pretty soon.

The more I hear about Expresscard/34 the more I like. Especially the part about popping it into a MacBook Pro and dumping footage like a P2 card on steroids. :weight_lift:

[Rocco Schult]

Since the RED One can record to both RED DRIVE and the attached FLASH module at the same time... Then we could use two RED DRIVEs or two RED RAMs simultaneously...

First of all, great post Jeff. Thanks, really apreciated.

I thought I saw posted somewhere that redone can exactly not do that ? Media can be insert simultaneously, but not written to. You'd have to chose the media before recording.
If I'm wrong I'd second Jeffs suggestion.

[Ken Willinger]

Media can be insert simultaneously, but not written to. You'd have to chose the media before recording.
That is my understanding as well.

[sandesh]

Well you can buy the expressCard Memory Drive here... (http://www.hsc-us.com/Consumer2/expresscards/exp34fd_buy.html)

but the speed is limited to 22MB/sec write.

[Ralph Oshiro]

So lemme get this straight . . .

CF: Best CURRENT bang for the buck. On its way out. Needs PCMCIA adapter. PCMCIA is over.
ExpressCard34: Good and fast--new standard. Wins convenience award (already in Mac laptops and some new PC laptops).
1.8" SATA: Best FUTURE bang for the buck. Economies of scale advantage due to being a new iPod component. Largest capacities of all by year's end.

So . . . I don't want to buy into CF, since it's kind of an obsolete media, even though all pro DSLRs still use CF, and I already own a ton of 'em. ExpressCard is especially nice, since I can just pop it into newer laptops to offload (VERY important), and it is the latest "PC card" standard. But, in the future, 1.8" SATA will be the best bang for the buck--but for now, I have no (siimple) way to offload a 1.8" SATA card into a laptop or whatever. Yet 1.8" SATA will be the best investment, since it has the capability to have the largest capacity soonest (or ever), at the lowest cost per GB? Do I have this all correct?

P.S. Now what was that approximate record time per GB for REDCODE 4K again?

[Cam Crowley]

In regards to Overcranking.
I know that it is not possible to record 4K or 2K at 60fps or higher without the use of the RAWport. What I am wondering is whether the REDRAM drive inparticular or the REDRAID drive is going to be able to record overcranked footage (at resoulution above above 720p or 1080p). I've asked this question a couple of times - read the relevent posts here at reduser as well as the format options on red.com but it is the one thing I am still unsure about.

If the REDRAM drive is not able to do it (record 60fps or higher) then what exactly are the advantages of using REDRAM over the REDDRIVE (apart from the obvious eg: transfer speeds and virtually silent operation)? Im just trying to ascertain if the REDRAM is worth the extra money in terms of its ability to record more format options than the REDDRIVE.

Thanks to anybody who can help me clear this up.

Cam

[Jaime Vallés]

If the REDRAM drive is not able to do it (record 60fps or higher) then what exactly are the advantages of using REDRAM over the REDDRIVE (apart from the obvious eg: transfer speeds and virtually silent operation)? Im just trying to ascertain if the REDRAM is worth the extra money in terms of its ability to record more format options than the REDDRIVE.

From what I understand, the main advantage is reliability. No moving parts means less chance of data corruption.

[Brook Willard]

Ralph, I've heard REDCODE RAW 4K figures ranging from 23MB/s to 27.5MB/s... so I'd say 30MB/s just to encompass all. Obviously this may have already changed, but I'm going to be vague with 30MB/s and hope it's right.

Which leaves you with about 34-35 seconds per gig. Is that accurate? I have no idea.

Ozcam, the main advantage to the RED RAM over the RED DRIVE is that there are no moving parts in the RED RAM. That means that you don't need to worry about intense vibration or impacts that may potentially cause the RED DRIVE to "skip" and abort recording.

As of the last format chart I saw, these were the potential resolutions:

Optical RAW Data port to some sort of unspecified external RAID [Uncompressed only]
2540p/4.5K uncompressed RAW at up to 60p
2K uncompressed RAW at up to 120p

The "unspecified external RAID" may be made by RED [that "RED RAID" we've heard about] and it may be made by somebody else and connected via some sort of RED-specific interface connector. Hell, it might be something completely different. I don't know so I don't want to risk prematurely specifying or speculating.

RED DRIVE, RED RAM or onboard flash options [REDCODE RAW and RGB compressed]
4K REDCODE RAW at up to 30p
2K REDCODE RAW at up to 60p
1080p REDCODE RGB [from S16mm or S35mm area] at up to 60p
720p REDCODE RGB [from S35mm area] at up to 60p
720p REDCODE RGB [from S16mm area] at up to 120p

Bear in mind that this may not be accurate, current or final. Furthermore, not all of these features will be enabled on the first cameras. I'm just going from what I think I remember hearing.

[Mike Prevette]

Hostile environments that would kill a HD are where the RedRam has it's benefits. For example helicopter of Vehicle shots, or extreme POV's such as bolter to the front of a roller coaster.

_mike

[Mike Prevette]

This doodad is EXTREMELY use full and everyone should have one, but for dumping the 1.8" SATA drives to a laptop, it (or something like it) should fit the bill.

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/U2NVSPATA/


_mike

[Brook Willard]

Hmm... Brook should add this one to the FAQ. ;)

Trust me, I'm planning on it. Frankly, I already have it written from my more complete pre-NAB FAQ that I didn't post. I didn't post it because I expected a lot to change at NAB... and I'm glad I held off on it. I'm going to wait until the new version is finished and all information is confirmed to be accurate and current by the RED guys. These next few weeks are very busy for me [graduation, moving and finding a job], so it will be a while.

[Cam Crowley]

Thanks for the prompt responses.
Wouldn't the various FLASH recording options then have the same advantages that the RAM recording offers over the REDDRIVE in terms of vibration resistence?
Just trying to figure out where my money will best be spent.
Thanks again.

Cam

[Brook Willard]

Yes, I believe they will have the same advantages. They will lack the recording time though... unless something changes. I don't know.

[Jaime Vallés]

Wouldn't the various FLASH recording options then have the same advantages that the RAM recording offers over the REDDRIVE in terms of vibration resistence?

Excellent question. Why spend $4500 for 64GB RED-RAM when a $500 module and a few 16GB Expresscard/34 cards will be a heck of a lot cheaper, offer the same shock resistance (presumably), and even be upgradeable to larger capacity cards later on (RED-RAM can't be upgraded as far as we know)?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I thought I saw posted somewhere that redone can exactly not do that ? Media can be insert simultaneously, but not written to. You'd have to chose the media before recording.
If I'm wrong I'd second Jeffs suggestion.

Hmmm... I've been under the impression that one could record to the FLASH module or RAW Port while also recording to a RED DRIVE. I did a quick search and couldn't find confirmation either way... I wonder if this is one of those undecided features?

As for 16GB ExpressCard FLASH modules, they are now available but a little hard to find. Transcend has EC34 FLASH in 4, 8 and 16 GB capacities, but none of them are fast enough for RED...

[istvanttt]

I looked around and it seems the expressCard aren't really soooo fast, actually most don't even meet the 30MB/sec criteria. One is the theoretical speed of the interface and one is the real speed of the R/W of the media. So I start to be confused again.

And what do we really know about the 1.8" SATA modules and their speed?

Also for me the importance doesn't stay only in the speed of the media inside the camera (which has to hit the 30MB/sec) but also the download speed of the DATA once linked to the computer.

ie the RED RAM is to connect via Firewire to the computer. Fine, but I remember some time ago there where a lot of discussions in Barefeats about the speed problems with the Firewire on Macintoshes. Does somebody know if they where resolved?

[tallsided]

I've been searching for stores and sites that actually sell ExpressCard FLASH cards, but haven't found anything except card readers for sale. Can someone please put a link on this thread that has the price for a 16GB card. Thanks.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I looked around and it seems the expressCard aren't really soooo fast, actually most don't even meet the 30MB/sec criteria. One is the theoretical speed of the interface and one is the real speed of the R/W of the media. So I start to be confused again.

This is the current state of FLASH media. Just as there are currently 16GB CF cards and 32GB 1.8" SSD products on the market, I am unaware of any that are commercially available and meet the speed requirements of RED. This is a reason why the RED RAM is so expensive. It uses two 2.5" 32GB SSDs (as far as I'm aware) and to meet the necessary performance requirements, RED has probably had to go with specialized, expensive SSDs. Like the high-performance NAND models from Adtron, which run about $2K for a 32GB model. They also have 64GB and 160GB models available, but they are outrageously expensive. The 160GB has been demonstrated, I don't know if it is in fact available, but the last price estimates I saw put the price close to $20K.

Many more options are due to hit the market this year, so we'll see what happens...

[istvanttt]

I found here more info on the expressCard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expresscard

I theory fast, in reality we still have to wait to see them coming out.

On the other hand 1.8" SATA seems better promisiing the speed for the future..
http://www.dailytech.com/Article.aspx?newsid=6651

So my choices seem to reduce to RED-RAM and 1.8" SATA... at least for now:))

[number6]

ExpressCard comes in two variations - 34 and 54. They're actually the exact same thing except the 54 is a wider slot. The number is the width of the slot in mm. EC34 cards can be inserted into an EC54 slot, but obviously not the other way around. Many PC makers are jumping on the EC54 bandwagon to provide for more flexibility. The larger form factor also gives device makers more room to work when building peripheral cards.

And what you're thinking with the EC RAID card connected to standard HDDs, and plugging that card into a RED One... It's not going to work. First and foremost, the RED isn't going to have the software to interface with such a RAID card. RED would need to offer a software development kit (SDK) and then someone would have to create proper driver software for such a a RAID card. Additionally, I doubt the ExpressCard slot on the EC FLASH module is a full functional EC slot. It / the module connects to the camera via serial ATA. It's going to be able to access conventional ExpressCard storage and that's it.

As for using cheaper HDD solutions, I'm sure that some will appear. However, I wouldn't count on many being cheaper than the RED DRIVE. Try and make a robust and compact enclosure with internal RAID controller, external FW800, USB2 and eSATA interfaces and see how cheap you can sell them. I don't see much in the way of price gouging going on here...

OTOH, the interface for the RED DRIVE / RED RAM appears to be standard eSATA bundled with power over a LEMO cable. If you're cable making skills are decent and you don't mind taking the time to discover the pin-out of the RED LEMO cable, there's no reason you couldn't make your own LEMO to eSATA+power cable that could connect to off the shelf eSATA storage solutions. Not that I'm recommending such a thing... Personally, I'd rather just buy a few RED DRIVEs and go shoot something.

Jeff, I'm gonna put you on my buddy list and follow you all around this forum with my nose up your anal cavity. 'Cause while you intake the same raw data as most, instead of storing it as irretrievable fat that occasionally shakes when they move, you seem to digest the same data and excrete it at will. Thanks for all the great Ship High In Transit!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, I'm gonna put you on my buddy list and follow you all around this forum with my nose up your anal cavity. 'Cause while you intake the same raw data as most, instead of storing it as irretrievable fat that occasionally shakes when they move, you seem to digest the same data and excrete it at will. Thanks for all the great Ship High In Transit!

That is such an eloquent way to put it... I'm glad you found my excrement to your liking.

The biggest thing is I've spent years as a systems / IT consultant. And I've also done a bit of hardware/PCB design and software/game development. I have a knack with numbers, especially remembering them. I'm the kind of guy who can hear or read a name and phone number once and recall that info two weeks later when someone asks me. In some ways it sucks because I know I'm wasting valuable storage space in my brain... :nerd: My wife thinks I'm certifiably insane.

[Scott Webster]

Transcend (http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=7156) have released CF cards that claims 'up to' 40MB/s

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Transcend (http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=7156) have released CF cards that claims 'up to' 40MB/s

Usually claims are a best case scenario peak capability. The question is can the media sustain the necessary rate for all cells within the FLASH device and can it do it every time under a variety of conditions?

I haven't used any of the new Transcend ones... But the 33MB/s SanDisk ones can burst that much under peak conditions... In reality they're more like a 22MB/s device. The newer 38MB/s SanDisk and 40MB/s Transcend devices do look promising though. They should provide the necessary performance or at least come real close.

Hopefully RED will have some more info on all this and which media will work within the coming weeks as cameras start to ship. For those of us getting our cameras later this year, this discussion is almost pointless. :) So many things can and will change over the next 6 months