What does Red One have that Scarlet doesn't?

[Luis Ortiz]

Now that Scarlet is better and cheaper than Red One, are there any good reasons to buy a Red One?

[Steve Gibby]

Uh...compare the specifications for RED One and Scarlet and your question will be easily answered. RED One has a lot of features and capability that Scarlet won't.

Link: http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=22052

Different tools, both very capable, but still different..

[Luis Ortiz]

I can't afford to upgrade to an Epic at this time. Hopefully the sensor upgrade price is within my reach.

[JanneJansson]

"What does Red One have that Scarlet doesn't?"
Physical existents :)

[Luis Ortiz]

"What does Red One have that Scarlet doesn't?"
Physical existents :)

That's a great reason to sell now.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

That's a great reason to sell now.

and do what?----wait?

sorry i will earn some money in the next 4-5 months

[Raul Gonzo]

Your R1 already comes with a PL mount, you probably installed a CF module, it has an audio board, and the entire monitoring module on the back, several recording formats and its as tough as nails... (I,m sure there is more)

[Allan Stallard]

and do what?----wait?

sorry i will earn some money in the next 4-5 months

Exactly! Although I bet it'll be more like 12 months! Ha!

[JanneJansson]

R1 also have 120 fps, 4 channel sound, timecode, SDI video, drive connector, Ramping, timelapse, aluminum body, .. etc

[Ralph Wong]

R1 also have 120 fps, 4 channel sound, timecode, SDI video, drive connector, Ramping, timelapse, aluminum body, .. etc

Everyone keeps saying that the RED One will still be a superior camera, but I don't really see how it is. From my understanding the 120 fps is in 2K shooting only which most people tell me will not be as good quality as capturing 4k and down converting to 2K. That means that I will want to stay at 4k or higher capturing which gives the edge to the Scarlet which will be 5k. I know my R1 does not go higher than 30 fps on 4k.

As for 4 channel audio, most of the productions I work on record to a separate source that does not even connect to the camera, so the 4 channels will not be that important.

Timecode? Is the new Scarlet not going to have timecode? I don't remember reading that anywhere.

Some people have said that format options are better on the RED One, but what would be the problem of just cropping a 5k image in post as opposed to recording the image at the correct format in the R1. Doesn't the R1 achieve different aspect ratios by cropping the sensor?

I like the ruggedness of the aluminum body, but after realizing how heavy it makes the camera, I think I would rather have the light weight of the new Scarlet.

Certain timelapse you can achieve through post production. Just let the camera run for a couple of hours (changing the battery in between) and speed up the footage later. I guess if you want to take timelapse footage over the course of several hours, the R1 would be the camera of choice, but I don't see most people doing that.

I hope I'm wrong, and that the R1 will retain its value. I just got mine a month ago. However, unless somebody can point out to me a dramatic feature that the R1 has compared to the Scarlet, I feel that my investment will drop like a rock in a year's time.

The ONLY real benefit I see of the R1 right now is that it is in my hands, and I can shoot with it. However, I still believe I am going to take a big hit on this investment unless I can rent it out soon.

[David Battistella]

I like the ruggedness of the aluminum body, but after realizing how heavy it makes the camera, I think I would rather have the light weight of the new Scarlet.


Don't you think a Scarlet or Epic with all of the functionality of a RED ONE will weigh about the same or more. You can't record a shot with just a 4 pound brain. It needs a "body" with power supply, etc.

David

[Luis Ortiz]

Exactly! Although I bet it'll be more like 12 months! Ha!

Count down begins. Twelve months will be here before you know it. I hope you're able to generate enough for an upgrade because when Scarlet and Epic arrive, your R1 will no longer be the most attractive.
:bye2:

[Francis Nguyen]

I wasn't sure if it has been asked; it's time consuming reading through all the recent posts.

Is there a possibility for a 4th option to be considered for current RED ONE owners:

4. A RED ONE owner can trade in their RED ONE for a full $17,500 credit towards any SCARLET and accessories. (?)

I know downgrading is not a route that some will want to take, but the Scarlet is all I would really need under my budget. I think a 4th option would put an end to most of the complaints. Regardless, awesome job to the RED team on offering upgrade paths! It truly is better than nothing. Thanks.

[David Mullen ASC]

I have a 3-year-old Sharp Aquos 720P TV set with no HDMI inputs... I wonder if I can get Sharp to let me trade it in for a newer model as long as they cost the same? What, I have to buy the new TV set and find someone to buy the old one off of me? What about my 2-year-old 4G Ipod Nano -- I filled it up, will Apple let me trade it for a new 8G Nano? What, no? I have to pay for newer Mac products? What about my 2006 Toyota Prius, what if the 2009 model is better? Will Toyota let me swap out my car? No? What's up with that? :shifty:

Seriously, I can't believe how generous RED is already being with their upgrade policies...

Let's say they sold 5000 RED ONE's and then more or less switched them out for 5000 Scarlets and EPIC's when they got released, with the customer just paying the difference. Basically that would be 5000 new sales that they didn't make on the new cameras right off the bat. And who's to say that when the next generation comes along, those 5000 people (assuming one camera each) weren't going to expect to be able to swap those Scarlet's and EPIC's all over again? At what point does this become a charity rather than a business? Buy once, at incredibly low prices compared to the competition, and then get more or less a new camera every couple of years with no cost to the consumer?

[Nick Ambrose]

I have a 3-year-old Sharp Aquos 720P TV set with no HDMI inputs... I wonder if I can get Sharp to let me trade it in for a newer model as long as they cost the same? What, I have to buy the new TV set and find someone to buy the old one off of me? What about my 2-year-old 4G Ipod Nano -- I filled it up, will Apple let me trade it for a new 8G Nano? What, no? I have to pay for newer Mac products? What about my 2006 Toyota Prius, what if the 2009 model is better? Will Toyota let me swap out my car? No? What's up with that? :shifty:


Hey David, while you are on the phone to Apple, could you ask them about my 5 year old Macs that wont edit RED footage ? Maybe they will swap them out.

If not, I'm gonna have to hit up Jim for some cash to replace them, since it's his cameras that are forcing me to get new macs.

Strangely Sony didn't respond yet to my request for a full credit of the (original) price of my FX1 against a nice new EX1, or my underwater housing manufacturer, although I'm sure they will soon !

Sheesh

[Ad Man]

Red are all about democratising the film industry - putting independents and low budget film makers on a technical par with the studios. That's what they started out to do and that's what they're continuing to do - that's what they do! This particular company is always going to offer something better for less cash every couple of years. We all have to live with it.

Completely off-topic, seeing David Mullen is on the forum - David, sorry to ask but do you know of any modern digital training / workshop DVDs on a par with the excellent Kodak Cinematography Master Class videos from the 1990s? I can't find anything!

[Stuart English]

Is there a possibility for a 4th option to be considered for current RED ONE owners:

- A RED ONE owner can trade in their RED ONE for a full $17,500 credit towards any SCARLET and accessories.


No, but as a RED ONE owner, you do qualify for a 12% discount on a Scarlet "Brain" and Accessories.

If you are using a P/L mount, any lenses you own will operate just fine with a Scarlet "Brain".

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Many people would take a Scarlet over an RED One just for the reduced boot up time.

Stephen

[Ralph Wong]

Don't you think a Scarlet or Epic with all of the functionality of a RED ONE will weigh about the same or more. You can't record a shot with just a 4 pound brain. It needs a "body" with power supply, etc.

David

Yes, but I can't shoot with the R1 with just the 10lb body. I still need to add all that other stuff. The Scarlet is suppose to be 3lbs. To get just the body equal to a R1 body I would think it would be around 5lbs at the most. In fact, I would imagine that with all the accessories added to the Scarlet it would max out at around 20lbs. The batteries for the Scarlet look like they will be lighter. This makes sense since they said it will not generate as much heat (probably because it uses less power). My bare bones R1 setup weighs in at about 30lbs right now.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why the R1 will still be a superior camera. As I stated in an earlier post, it seems like all the benefits are negligible and the Scarlet will be the way to go. Someone pointed out that the R1s that get returned for the Epic will probably be sold at some later point by RED. They wouldn't just throw these cameras out. That will even further depress the price of a R1 camera as a flood of these things will come onto the market.

[C.H.Haskell]

RED1 is hands down a good investment 1 year ago and it still is today...period. If you own one then pat yourself on the back, you made a good investment and if your on the fence about waiting a year then maybe you dont NEED a R1...Rent mine.

I second David's comment and many others on this forum who are shocked at RED's generous policy. R1 trade in value is 17,500 so correct me if I am wrong but that means my camera is worth that much when I bought a year ago and will be worth that much in 12 months. I am sitting at post right now, pushing these current gen R3ds has hard as i can and still am excited if not more then the day I bought this camera. Part of me seriously does not want to let go of my R1..>I want to keep it until its a vintage classic, for me the R1 is what changed everything. Cheers.

[Stephen Williams]

Someone pointed out that the R1s that get returned for the Epic will probably be sold at some later point by RED. They wouldn't just throw these cameras out. That will even further depress the price of a R1 camera as a flood of these things will come onto the market.

Hi,

It's quite possible Red will destroy the cameras they take in, they can probably make more money selling a new camera than refurbishing an old one. This has been done by film camera manufacture companies before. I don't think Sony plan to sell the 50 Vipers they have taken in PX for F23's, that's about half the Vipers ever sold!

Stephen

[Ian Laurie]

Well let's look at things for a minute here. a scarlet capable of out producing the red as far as quality is concerned is still a year off. the one shipping in spring is a 2/3 3k camera. The red sensor is upgradeable, assumably at a lower cost than replacing the camera. Also consider that a modular camera is not for everyone. I don't mind waiting 1 minute for the camera to boot up. in that time i am usually busy dealing with other issues anyway. and with 5000 currently in existence i would hardly call it a flood of cameras entering the market. some of the owners on these boards will certainly send them back as their business model focus is placed on rental of the latest and greatest. others like myself prefer to get the latest once and push it to its limits before replacement. I believe the R1 to have a lot of life left. With the sensor upgrades for it, it will not fall behind in any significant way.

my 2 cents. i was worried before the announcement. Am not worried now.

[fightordie]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why the R1 will still be a superior camera. As I stated in an earlier post, it seems like all the benefits are negligible and the Scarlet will be the way to go. Someone pointed out that the R1s that get returned for the Epic will probably be sold at some later point by RED. They wouldn't just throw these cameras out. That will even further depress the price of a R1 camera as a flood of these things will come onto the market.


I don't think these are negligible:

The RED one can shoot: 16:9, 2:1, 2.4:1,Anamorphic
It can do 4.5 k, 4k, 3k, 2k and soon 1080p
It can do time lapse and ramping.

Each scarlet can only do 1 or 2 resolutions. The red one can do 5. Thats a biggy if you're shooting different things for different clients. Alot of people just want 1080p.

And thats with the "old" Mysterium chip. Upgrade the chip to the mysterium X and the red one will be able to do redcode 42 and possibly higher frame rates in 2k, 3k, and 1080p modes. Upgrade the chip to the Monstro and who knows what it will be capable of doing.

Thats a very versatile REd one camera.

Wanna upgrade your Mysterium X scarlet to the monstro chip? Sorry you gotta buy a whole new brain. In a way the redone is more upgradeable than the scarlets.

Some don't need modularity. The red one has most necessary items on the body like control panel and i/o connectors. These are extra modules you'll have to have on the scarlet all the time anyway, so size and weight are upped.

Things like 1080p may not be of interest to you but its huge. And remember thats 1080p out of the cam without software cropping from higher rsolution. A lot of rendering time to be saved there. And the frame rates for 1080p are TBD.and that number could also be huge.

Scarlet will not have as many shooting options, frame rates, time lapse, or ramping. The red one will be the do anything cam at an affordable price. Especially for people you don't need 5k or up epic. You do realize some people think 4k is way good enough for theatrical viewing and anything higher makes working with it difficult, just go to the prolost blog and read Stu's view on this.

Still not convinced?. If you're tired of your redone and want a scarlet you get a 12% credit for a scarlet package or just send the redone back to red for a $17,500 credit put towards an epic.

If you have a red one now you are first in line for scarlets and epics.

Especially if you've got a redone serial number about 250 or lower you can get these new cams faster and not have to wait months after they start shipping. Because the 250 or lower serial # redone owners are the diehards and are going to order boatloads of cameras and you're just gonna have to wait and wait.

If they make the upgrades affordable and if they just got the red one to do instantaneous boot up it would kill.

[Ralph Wong]

For the argument that the R1 will be worth $17,500 a year from now, I think that only applies to people who are going to upgrade to Epic. In fact, anybody planning to upgrade to Epic are getting a sweet, sweet deal. You get to use the R1 for a year and get a $17.5k credit.

My problem is for the people not upgrading to Epic. I don't have an extra $10,000 to spend on Epic. I put all my money into the R1. If RED does plan to destroy the R1 cameras that get turned in, then I think the R1s may keep a good portion of their value. However, if they turn around and resell it, the R1s will definitely take a hit. Yes, I consider 5,000 cameras a "flood" of cameras considering there are not that many people willing to chuck out $17.5k for a camera. Why do you think heavy duty tripods cost so much. It's a very niche market. When I told some of my friends that a tripod could cost $12,000, they looked at me with disbelief. Hell, when I told them the price tag of a R1 they looked at me in disbelief.

I actually don't care that the new Scarlets will have 5k. 4k is good enough for me. I do like the fact that the Scarlets will be lighter, be more modular, and possibly have a faster boot time.

What I still don't understand is why being able to shoot in so many different formats is such a great thing. Can't I just shoot 16:9 5k and crop it or down convert it to any size I want? There is the issue of storage space, but with hard drives getting cheaper by the minute, I don't see this as a huge issue.

Again, I'm hoping that everyone saying that the R1 will retain most of it's value are correct. If the Scarlet comes out with the price point and specs as promised, I will be selling my R1 and getting a Scarlet. I hope I can at least sell my R1 for $14k-15k. Maybe I will get lucky and a guy who wants to upgrade to Epic earlier will pay me 17.5k for the camera (best case scenario).

[fightordie]

What I still don't understand is why being able to shoot in so many different formats is such a great thing. Can't I just shoot 16:9 5k and crop it or down convert it to any size I want? There is the issue of storage space, but with hard drives getting cheaper by the minute, I don't see this as a huge issue.
.

Who is doing all this 5k crop to 3k, 2k or 1080p. Is that on your time? Are you charging for that? Some clients want deliverable that day in 1080. Some clients don't want to pay for the crop time because they're used to tape based formats that are ready to be handed over. You can copy RED contents over to hard drive and hand to client. You're done.

All situations are not the same. If i just want 2k I've got it and the workload just got easier. I want a timelapse option, I want ramping. Its all there. Easier.

[Ralph Wong]

From what I understand about RED Cine, you can set the crop at anything you want when transcoding the footage to a useable format. I know they say you can use the proxies to cut, but after hearing the limitations, I think most will just go to Prores or the DNXHD for the Avid. In any case, as it stands now, everyone using an Avid will have to turn the R3d files into something that Avid can ingest anyway. So if we have to go through that step, why not just set the crop you want at that time? Besides, the Scarlet will have a 16:9 format which is a standard television format. I can see how the R1 can be an advantage in CERTAIN situations. I just don't see how it's flexibility will warrant the additional $7,000 to $10,000 cost. I would be very curious to see how many people will be buying the RED once Scarlet hits the market.

[TallGuy]

I have a 3-year-old Sharp Aquos 720P TV set with no HDMI inputs... I wonder if I can get Sharp to let me trade it in for a newer model as long as they cost the same? What, I have to buy the new TV set and find someone to buy the old one off of me? What about my 2-year-old 4G Ipod Nano -- I filled it up, will Apple let me trade it for a new 8G Nano? What, no? I have to pay for newer Mac products? What about my 2006 Toyota Prius, what if the 2009 model is better? Will Toyota let me swap out my car? No? What's up with that?

So before you bought your Sharp, Apple and Toyota each of those companies also told you the things you were buying would never be obsolete?

[fightordie]

I just don't see how it's flexibility will warrant the additional $7,000 to $10,000 cost. I would be very curious to see how many people will be buying the RED once Scarlet hits the market.

Well I'll tell you Ralph I bought into the making obsolescent obsolete line and if the chip upgrade for the red one is reasonable you will have a camera that can do everything and more than the scarlet. A bit heavier, a bit wider, but a cam that will be as current as can be. (the scarlet with all necessary add ons and lens will not be in a handycam weight zone so whats a couple of pounds at that point for pro shooting)

I cannot afford the upgrade to the epic. I too cannot afford to have the scarlet take business away.

If the chip upgrade is unreasonable or costs close to almost as much as a scarlet then there are approx. 5000 red one owners, some who will never have an issue, but a great many who will and RED will have lost some face with them. Lets see what the months and days bring us regarding costs, for scarlet packages and chip upgrades. And if enough people feel they're unreasonable their voices will be heard and I'm sure Jim will respond.

I accept that I bought this current model. I never expected RED to stop their camera design and I don't expect anything for free. i must admit I felt I had a bit longer time before these issues would come up as I'm sure alot of others did too. But if they take me to my knees financially to keep obsolescence at bay I'll let RED know how I feel and i will take my future money elsewhere.

[David Mullen ASC]

So before you bought your Sharp, Apple and Toyota each of those companies also told you the things you were buying would never be obsolete?

Why would anyone ever believe a piece of technology cannot be obsoleted? Common sense would tell you the opposite.

[Stephen Pruitt]

I think that some people really did drink the Kool-Aid about the RED One making obsolescence obsolete.

Stephen

[fightordie]

I think that some people really did drink the Kool-Aid about the RED One making obsolescence obsolete.

Stephen

look I know being a wise ass is something you enjoy but the red one was sold as upgradeable from day one.

[David Mullen ASC]

RED has a generous upgrade program, but some people seem to be suggesting outright free replacements whenever a newer, better piece of RED technology comes along as some sort of customer right. I just don't see the precedent for that in the electronics industry unless due to manufacturing error.

There would come a point after the camera has essentially paid for itself where the owner would be basically getting something for nothing by getting free upgrades and replacements for years and years to come. It's one thing if the camera was suddenly devalued before a reasonable period of ownership (let's say, two years for an electronic device) due to the release of something better by the same company, but with such a low-cost camera as the RED ONE compared to competing technology, it's harder to make the case that RED owes their customers new cameras every time they release a better model than the one they sold to the customer.

I'm not being cynical, just realistic -- there has to be some financial risk in buying professional equipment, doesn't there? Getting an original RED ONE can't turn out to be like winning the lottery and having a state of the art camera for the rest of your life, the original investment long ago having paid for itself and RED essentially footing the equipment bill for the rest of your shooting career, can it? When does a generous offer for upgrades cross the line into charity work for filmmakers?

When I buy a piece of electronic technology, I just expect to get my money's worth, and if it is for a business, for it to pay for itself within a reasonable period, before it becomes unusable or unrentable due to obsolescence. To expect anything more than that in a commercial system seems unreasonable.

[Billy Summers]

True true, David.

It seems that the low cost/high quality of RED has brought many inexperienced, highly opinionated people out of the woodwork that love expressing sentiments (talking sh*t/flaming) from faceless forums on the internet...

Maybe if more people made they're living from owning gear that they used/rented on set. They would realize what an awesomely impossible deal we're all getting from Mr. Jannard

...Anyways

[S. Um]

So before you bought your Sharp, Apple and Toyota each of those companies also told you the things you were buying would never be obsolete?

Red didn't say they would do it for free. Pay to upgrade to Epic and you can use most of your existing accessories. Pay to "upgrade" to Scarlet and you can use your accessories, and keep the R1 as a second camera. Not a bad deal.

[Ian Laurie]

"what the R1 has that scarlet doesn't"

A user base. My investment. A newly built reputation. look my point is that a camera that gets compared to 35mm film cameras on a regular basis is not just going to evaporate because a newer model exists. If you buy technology as a financial investment you're suffering from poor logic skills. If you bought it as a personal creative investment with financial benefits, your skill will determine its value. if you're pissed you bought the R1 now that scarlet is coming out then sell it and get a scarlet. I am keeping my R1. it has a form and function that suits my purpose. i will upgrade the internals as red allows. Full modularity leads to its own complications. both formats have their pros and cons. Be satisfied people. it will increase your enjoyment of life.

[Michael Brennan]

Why would anyone ever believe a piece of technology cannot be obsoleted?.

Because Jim told 'em so?



Mike Brennan

[TallGuy]

Why would anyone ever believe a piece of technology cannot be obsoleted? Common sense would tell you the opposite.

But people did believe that.

So it's fair to say that you believe Red's claim of making obsolescence obsolete was just a marketing slogan that some people took too seriously, and common sense should have let them know that it wasn't true?

[TallGuy]

Red didn't say they would do it for free. Pay to upgrade to Epic and you can use most of your existing accessories. Pay to "upgrade" to Scarlet and you can use your accessories, and keep the R1 as a second camera. Not a bad deal.

I'm not saying it's a bad deal. Not at all. But what you are saying is that making obsolecence obsolete = being able to pay for an upgrade or being able to use parts from an old model on a new model. By that argument, Toyota could be using the same slogan. I can trade in my old Toyota for a discount on a new car, and the stereo migrates nicely as well.

[damianheffernan]

Red 1 is available now even though it's out of the price range for a lot of Indy filmmakers. THe Scarlet is not only 12 months off but it will also probably cost you $10,000 to walk out the door working. Again out of range for a lot of Indy's so it'll be rentals for most of us. And speaking of rentals, how come a $17,500 camera costs me the same to rent as a $100,000 film camera?

[Adrian Van Rossum]

The rental price was initially high because of the long waiting list for the Red One. It should drop now that Red has caught up, but the lenses in a good rental package should account for a good chunk of the rental fee. Expect rentals to drop even further when the Scarlets come along.

From a film-making perspective the Scarlet is exciting. If you can afford it, buy a Scarlet rig for film and workflow tests and location scouting, then when you are ready to shoot your feature hire just an Epic "brain" and some lenses and bolt on all your Scarlet attachments and accessories and still have the Scarlet "brain" handy in case of emergency. Rentals in this case won't be much cheaper as an Epic brain costs more than a Red One, but Scarlet rentals will make 2K (and higher) filming affordable to many more indies.

[Michael Grugal]

It would be nice if the scarlet would have the option to shoot native 1080p