White Balance

[Bachman]

This subject has probably already been touch on, but I assume the RED has a standard manual white balance control similar to other video cameras, also does the RED have a Auto White Tracing feature?.

[Greg M]

no white balance...it can be manipulated in the raw file

[Bachman]

wow! not sure what to say about that...more work for us guys in post aye. Mind you most DP's cant get it right half the time anyway

[Michele Gavazzeni]

just put a gray reference board on the first second of the take and fix it in post with more consistency form take to take.
I love raw!

[Keith Nealy]

What do you do if you're not shooting raw? Or, are you always shooting raw?

[Bachman]

just put a gray reference board on the first second of the take and fix it in post with more consistency form take to take.
I love raw!

Thats fine when you have the time. But alot of the time we are shooting bandit cam, and sometimes panning shots from indoor to outdoor in an industrial environment. Thats never easy with any camera, but with the Digi's we shoot with we can flick on the AWT in that situation. We can key frame the white balance in post, but it never seems to work very well.

[Ralph Oshiro]

I deleted this post to prevent any more confusion. Both Stuart and Graeme have answered the questions in the original post fully.

[Jason Francois]

axing the white balance is one more step away from pure video and I for one am happy about it. This is digital cinema now, not so much digital video. Joy. :)

[Bachman]

axing the white balance is one more step away from pure video and I for one am happy about it. This is digital cinema now, not so much digital video. Joy. :)

Im all for the new so called "Digital Cinema" but in needs to work the real world of "Video" production.

[Brook Willard]

On the cameras I saw at NAB, there was a color temperature in Kelvin indicated on the data display on the back of the camera and in the menus. It was adjustable with two clicks and a flick of the knob. As far as I know, this was for picking the color temperature of the onboard monitors [and possibly outputs] without applying an external LUT. I believe this data is recorded with the RAW data [much like on an SLR] to give the developer a clue as to what temperature the footage was shot in... but I could be making this up. Obviously if that data is recorded, the color "center" shouldn't be baked in... it's just metadata attached to the RAW data.

This is all as far as I know and may or may not be even close to correct. It may have changed already and it may change in the future... this is just what I remember seeing. Perhaps somebody who spent more time with the menu system of the cameras at NAB can speculate further... it was visible to all.

[Jaime Vallés]

What do you do if you're not shooting raw? Or, are you always shooting raw?

Why shoot anything else? :bleh:

Seriously, though, I know there are plenty who will end up not shooting RAW for whatever valid reasons. But the beauty of this camera is RAW. Treat it like a high-end digital SLR camera and you're golden.

[I Bloom]

So is there a native color temperature for the camera? Tungsten, Daylight, somewhere in between?

IB

[Stuart English]

Yes there is a White Balance control. When you shoot RGB the white balance is usually "baked in" but when you shoot RAW the white balance is just used to create a color neutral feed for the EVF and other monitor outputs. In addition its then recorded as metadata, so you are free to use that value - or anything else you prefer - to corrrect a color cast in the RGB data derived from the RAW data.

The color temperature used to factory adjust the sensor for neutral colors is 5000K, then the White Balance circuit is working out the necessary math to re-establish neutral colors for other color temperatures (or you could use a color filter in the optical path). We have presets at 3200K and 5400K, you can dial in any alternative value you wish, or you can have the camera calculate it for you i.e. Auto White Balance.

[dalemccready]

wow! not sure what to say about that...more work for us guys in post aye. Mind you most DP's cant get it right half the time anyway

um..are you joking, this is a little unclear, and I take offense at such a generally negative remark.

I think you may need to work with some different dps.

[Bachman]

um..are you joking, this is a little unclear, and I take offense at such a generally negative remark.

I think you may need to work with some different dps.

Dale, it was a joke kiwi, dont mean to make it sound offensive. But hey, it does happen. In our case its actually been hard to get good DP's over the last couple of years both here and in Welly. Weve been burnt by some bad ones over east as well and they werent cheap either. Maybe we should give you a bell next time we need a good DP in Auckland. You reel looks hot!

Tony

[Martin Drew]

I think this thread highlights the fact that RedOne will not be the same thing to all users. It is capable of digital cinema, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to adopt a cinema style workflow. For some applications it may be more appropriate to shoot RGB. Just like a digital stills camera some shoot RAW some shoot JPEG, it is not about being right or wrong just being appropriate for your particular application.

M

[Bachman]

I think this thread highlights the fact that RedOne will not be the same thing to all users. It is capable of digital cinema, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to adopt a cinema style workflow. For some applications it may be more appropriate to shoot RGB. Just like a digital stills camera some shoot RAW some shoot JPEG, it is not about being right or wrong just being appropriate for your particular application.

M

Yeah I dunno. I like the idea of a RAW workflow no matter what the job. If we can do that we will. We shoot everything Digibeta and we used to have to decide between cutting DV or 10bit uncompressed, now I try and do everything in 10bit because its just better not just for the video, but also for graphics and broadcast, and the new Macs can handle it in an acceptable timeframe. The same thing will apply to the RED, so long as we have the resourses, we will do the best quality we can.

[Stephen Gentle]

Yeah I dunno. I like the idea of a RAW workflow no matter what the job. If we can do that we will. We shoot everything Digibeta and we used to have to decide between cutting DV or 10bit uncompressed, now I try and do everything in 10bit because its just better not just for the video, but also for graphics and broadcast, and the new Macs can handle it in an acceptable timeframe. The same thing will apply to the RED, so long as we have the resourses, we will do the best quality we can.

I agree. I would be shooting 4K redcode RAW for everything. Mainly because it's so flexable, and you can fit so much footage on a single drive. If 1080p redcode RGB was 2 or 3 times smaller than REDCODE RAW, it might be different, but as it stands, I don't see much reason to use anything else (except high frame rates through the raw port)

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for that explanation Stuart...

Looks like there will be good options for white balance: custom, presets, and auto. As metadata with RAW, or baked in with RGB. I really like that we can dial in any alternative value we want, or have the camera calculate it. Many options available...

[Barry Gregg]

My Canon 5D shoots RAW, but still has WB controls, including custom WB.

If the monitor output of the Red is way off color, the director is not going to be happy. Watching on a monitor that is either very blue or very orange on set will make for some heated conversations.

[Graeme Nattress]

When you shoot RAW, you see correct looking video through the monitor. I don't see why you think anyone would be unhappy - they're not going to see off colour video.

Graeme

[Stuart English]

The one operational clarification I'd offer to this is that the images through the viewfinder and monitor ports can look off color if you don't set white balance or hit the Auto White Balance from time to time. Again this does NOT affect the RAW data, and WB information IS stored with the RAW data as metadata, but adjusting (or having the camera recalculate) white balance as you shift between different color temperature lighting conditions - such as indoor to outdoor - is the only way to prevent a color cast in your viewfinder and on your on set monitors.

[Paul Wizikowski]

And thats the beauty of this camera. Flexibility. We can each choose our own workflow.

Something to think through though that was brought up by Bachman was the need to sometimes shoot a shot through varying color temperatures. (ie. going from indoor to outdoor, or vice-versa, and having to use the available temps) In this situation one could in REDCINE dial in one or the other but not keyframe between the two. Because REDCINE doesn't support keyframes. The only option would be to do two passes of the material. One for each color temp and then blend them (dissolve or the like) in your NLE.

Any other suggestions?

[Graeme Nattress]

Doing two versions of the shot is best, as then you're deferring the blending decisions to later - always a good thing.

Graeme

[Zakaree Sandberg]

white balance = amature

[David Mullen ASC]

On what planet? Auto white balance isn't used that often on professional video productions except in emergencies, but white balance is a common tool of video production.

In film, when you shoot under greenish fluorescents and shoot a grey scale under them and ask the dailies colorist to correct-out the green, essentially you are doing a form of white balancing, just not in-camera. It's just that white balance is a form of video production, whereas the RED camera is designed to act more like a film camera. But it's not a question of amateur vs. professional.

[Steve Gibby]

RED One was designed to act like a film camera when you need that, and act like a video camera when you need that. Flexibility and adaptability were the developmental mantras.

From a pure technology standpoint, RED One's technology pedigree is, in descending order of relationship:

1) DSLR
2) Video camera
3) Film camera

White balancing is an integral part of the workflow for DSLR and video work, and with RED One being largely based on those technologies, it follows that white balancing is important in RED One usage when shooting 1080p RGB and 720p RGB. When shooting RAW, chroma info isn't baked in, but rather stored as metadata, so adjusting of color parameters in REDCINE is easily done.

In his post #14 Stuart English verified that RED One will have white balancing capability, even a form of auto white balancing. Welcome to media convergence.

[Pat Cooksey]

On what planet? Auto

In film, when you shoot under greenish fluorescents and shoot a grey scale under them and ask the dailies colorist to correct-out the green, essentially you are doing a form of white balancing, just not in-camera. It's just that white balance is a form of video production, whereas the RED camera is designed to act more like a film camera. But it's not a question of amateur vs. professional.

As you know, In film we have always white balanced by putting filters in front of (or behind) the lens. Or by choosing a film stock balanced for the lighting conditions (tungston or Daylight). Minor corrections have always been done in post by the color timer or by the telecine colorist.

This system has worked for over 70 years (since color).

I appreciate the ability of RED to whitebalance in RGB. But for RAW I would evaluate the actual color caste unaltered in given lighting conditions and then, when shooting use an appropriate CC filter. That way you are always in the ball park. Remember, even most video cameras use a filter wheel to ball park it as well as white balance.

When shooting video (digital or otherwise) I always prefer the white balance presets over using a card, Unless I am trying to match precise colors between different localions. In the end, If I am editing my footage, I am going to do a scene by scene color correct as my last step anyway.

And I like the idea of the Redcine workflow because I like the idea of being able to do a basic color correction before handing my footage off to a client. It gives me back a measure of control over the look.

By the way, In my research no one has mentioned whether or not RED has the capacity to playback the recorded footage in camera.

Pat Cooksey
Atlanta DP
www.motionvisuals.com.

[dalemccready]

Dale, it was a joke kiwi, dont mean to make it sound offensive. But hey, it does happen. In our case its actually been hard to get good DP's over the last couple of years both here and in Welly. Weve been burnt by some bad ones over east as well and they werent cheap either. Maybe we should give you a bell next time we need a good DP in Auckland. You reel looks hot!

Tony

No Worries...and I travel to Perth! Did a feature called Teesh & Trude there a few years ago with DVCpro50. Came out all right. Was a nice town. Good for cycling in my spare time, and so many hot girls!

[Ralph Oshiro]

Yes there is a White Balance control. When you shoot RGB the white balance is usually "baked in" but when you shoot RAW the white balance is just used to create a color neutral feed for the EVF and other monitor outputs.
Whew! Thanks for clearing that up, Stuart!

[Steve Gibby]

Here's an aggregation of recent posts by RED Team members concerning white balancing with RED One:

“when you white balance it sets the gain of each channel to be equal”; - this is not strictly so. Perhaps it is in “video” cameras, but that's not how white balance really works in terms of color science. Because it's a perceptual thing, you can't really do proper white balance in RGB, but you can in a perceptual spaced based around how the eye works. White balance then becomes a 3x3 matrix, rather than R, G, B gain values. End result is a much better image that you can set in degress kelvin quite nicely. That's how the current white balance in the REDCINE is working - you type in the color temp of the scene, and bamm! you're balanced. Want it warmer or cooler, just add or subtract a few hundred kelvin."

Graeme Nattress
DVX User RED forum
10/31/06
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=76635


"In-camera you can set the white balance in degrees kelvin or white balance it by pointing it at a gray card. As indicated, in RAW mode this information passes as metadata and is not applied (you can override) until the post RGB conversion process.

REDCINE will also allow you to "auto" white balance.

There will be all sorts of monitoring aids to help with focus and exposure. We are not ready to tell much more yet. Come see us at NAB Casey (and everyone else)!"

Rob Lohman
2/7/07
DVi
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85275



"You could shoot a warm or cool card, but you'd probably be better off shooting a grey card, and then dialing in the kelvin shift you need to warm or cool the image.

It's not limited to the Kelvin scale of colour temperatures as there's also a tint control that allows your white point to move along iso-temperature lines perpendicular to the plankian locus in CIE 1960 u,v space.

And you've got R,G,B gain controls, and a custom matrix where you can insert whatever you want.

But really, while balance is for just that - to subvert it to something else is a hack you need on cameras without easy or sufficient controls. I'd think that's a hack you no longer need with RED."

Graeme Nattress
2/7/07
REDUser
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85275



"Yes there is a White Balance control. When you shoot RGB the white balance is usually "baked in" but when you shoot RAW the white balance is just used to create a color neutral feed for the EVF and other monitor outputs. In addition its then recorded as metadata, so you are free to use that value - or anything else you prefer - to correct a color cast in the RGB data derived from the RAW data.

The color temperature used to factory adjust the sensor for neutral colors is 5000K, then the White Balance circuit is working out the necessary math to re-establish neutral colors for other color temperatures (or you could use a color filter in the optical path). We have presets at 3200K and 5400K, you can dial in any alternative value you wish, or you can have the camera calculate it for you i.e. Auto White Balance."

Stuart English
5/2/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=38479&posted=1#post38479




"The one operational clarification I'd offer to this is that the images through the viewfinder and monitor ports can look off color if you don't set white balance or hit the Auto White Balance from time to time. Again this does NOT affect the RAW data, and WB information IS stored with the RAW data as metadata, but adjusting (or having the camera recalculate) white balance as you shift between different color temperature lighting conditions - such as indoor to outdoor - is the only way to prevent a color cast in your viewfinder and on your on set monitors."

Stuart English
5/3/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2196&page=3

[Steve Gibby]

By the way, In my research no one has mentioned whether or not RED has the capacity to playback the recorded footage in camera.

It does...

[Ralph Oshiro]

When you shoot RAW, you see correct looking video through the monitor.
Thanks, Graeme. Obviously, I wasn't clear on on this issue before.

[Joel Kaye]

Here's an aggregation of recent posts by RED Team members concerning white balancing with RED One:

Great post Gibby. I've been following fairly closely and I didn't remember any of that.

[Gbabymogul]

On what planet? Auto white balance isn't used that often on professional video productions except in emergencies, but white balance is a common tool of video production.

In film, when you shoot under greenish fluorescents and shoot a grey scale under them and ask the dailies colorist to correct-out the green, essentially you are doing a form of white balancing, just not in-camera. It's just that white balance is a form of video production, whereas the RED camera is designed to act more like a film camera. But it's not a question of amateur vs. professional.David, how did you white balance the Elisha Cuthbert flick?

I noticed on the bts you taped frame lines on the monitor. Guerilla style, baby.

BTW, i thought you did a good job with the material, which needed more work, IMO. Couldn't you have thrown in some happy flashbacks ? (kidding) How long was the post for that ?

:beer:

[David Mullen ASC]

That movie, "The Quiet", was shot on a Panavised Sony F900, more or less donated, or at least rented to the production for dirt cheap. It was an under 1-mil feature co-produced with the University of Texas in Austin.

For HD features, 90% of the time I use the preset white balance and the filter wheel. To give the day scenes a cool look, I used the "C" filter instead of the "D" or "A" for a halfway balance. I had some scenes in a cafeteria under Cool Whites where I white-balanced to correct out the green cast.

Because the camera package was a deal, it was incomplete (Panavision was cleaned-out of HD gear for because of TV series shooting) and the HD monitor came from a local company and it didn't have a frameline generator, so I masked off the monitor to match the cropping to 2.35 that we were doing.

Post was sort of extended because the movie kept being re-edited after it was bought by Sony Pictures Classics / Screen Gems (I forgot which Sony label it was finally released under.) The cut that went to the Toronto Film Festival was very different. Some of the early post was done at UT Austin but it was finished at FotoKem and then transferred to 35mm anamorphic by EFilm.

[Gbabymogul]

Thanks for the info. :-)

I suppose shooting a similar flick with RED you'd just dial in the color temp on camera (and shoot a grey card for reference in post) ? Or would you load LUT's ?

I only mention the framelines because we previously had a big thread about framelines (commercial needs) and when i saw the bts on your film, it seemed some of that fuss over the issue was a load of palaver, depending on your needs. It put the issue to rest, for me.

I would have liked to see the Toronto version of the film. Jamie Babbit seems like a risk taker. That's always a good endorsement to check out her films. Like you, i try to check out as many digital films as i can (to get a feeling for the possibilities).

:beer:

[David Mullen ASC]

The question for a camera shooting RAW is how to get dailies for offline editing to be timed somewhat to look close to the final intention. I guess if the camera stores intended color balance as metadata, then an HD or SD downconversion for dailies would contain the correct look.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Thanks for the info. :-)

I suppose shooting a similar flick with RED you'd just dial in the color temp on camera (and shoot a grey card for reference in post) ? Or would you load LUT's ?

You'd shoot RAW with a grey card prior to every change in lighting conditions.

Then set your color temp. in Redcine.

If you needed a dialed in looked during shooting, that's when you'd ingest a LUT to the Red to be fed out to the set monitors. The Pana Genesis uses a similar, non-recorded LUT system they call Pana-log.

[Bachman]

The question for a camera shooting RAW is how to get dailies for offline editing to be timed somewhat to look close to the final intention. I guess if the camera stores intended color balance as metadata, then an HD or SD downconversion for dailies would contain the correct look.

David , I would feel reasonably confident that I could correct any white balance in post, the only thing I would want is consistency

[Gbabymogul]

You'd shoot RAW with a grey card prior to every change in lighting conditions.

Then set your color temp. in Redcine.

Hi, Alexander. By dialed in, I meant the preview (Dual HD/SDI) either to the LCD or monitor, not the RAW footage. That way you could ensure that your producers don't freak out (when they see the preview) and you have the metadata for later RAW processing in REDcine (or a general idea of where you want to be).

I'd do a few weeks worth of prep (experimenting with LUT's) with some key crew for a feature, and then apply them to a 1080p preview on set.

Good to know about what people plan to do, though.
I suppose color temp is as important as film as with digital cinema.

:beer:

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi

It has been hinted at (and therefore understood by some/many?) that you/we would be advised to optically filter red to get it in the 'ball park' with regard to colour temperature...

I would like to reiterate this as it is the only way you can retain predictable and wide 'latitude with any imager (film or electronic)... Overloading a colour channel (even if its yet to be created ;-)) can be a real problem..

regards

Michael Lindsay

[Ralph Oshiro]

Hi

It has been hinted at (and therefore understood by some/many?) that you/we would be advised to optically filter red to get it in the 'ball park' with regard to colour temperature...

I would like to reiterate this as it is the only way you can retain predictable and wide 'latitude with any imager (film or electronic)... Overloading a colour channel (even if its yet to be created ;-)) can be a real problem..

regards

Michael Lindsay
Yeah, I've always wondered about that. Several recent-model video cameras have done away with manual color-correcting internal filter wheels. My Sony DSR450 is one of those, with its all-electronic white balance system, and ND-only filter wheel. A couple times, I've gotten some odd daylight white balances with this camera, balances that I found difficult to correct in post. I've never seen similar white balance problems when using cameras with conventional filter wheels (Sony 400/600/700s, F900s, etc.). Ever since then, I've only shot using the preset white balances with my DSR450.

[David Mullen ASC]

I suspect that with these wider-latitude digital cameras, the noise issues from rating it at 5500K versus 3200K are not significant enough to warrant color-correction filters. And the trouble is that while it would be easy to use something like an 85 filter outdoors if it would help noise problems, I think the "native" balance of these sensors (where they are happiest) is closer to daylight than tungsten, and it's really not practical to use blue filters indoors when shooting in tungsten balance due to the high filter factor of blue and the low light levels employed by tungsten.

People forget just how far in the red spectrum tungsten lamps are -- even tungsten-balance color negative has to design a fast and therefore grainy blue layer just to compensate.

[Bachman]

Havent you guys got work to do???

[Steve Gibby]

Havent you guys got work to do???

Yup, and we'll get to that...but right now we're sharpening our knowledge base to help us generate and perform future work...

[Bachman]

Yup, and we'll get to that...but right now we're sharpening our knowledge base to help us generate and perform future work...

LOL..thats what I keep telling my wife

[Steve Gibby]

LOL..and your boss believes that line?

The cool thing is - I am my boss

(Long live indies!)

[TimothyD]

Hi

It has been hinted at (and therefore understood by some/many?) that you/we would be advised to optically filter red to get it in the 'ball park' with regard to colour temperature...

I would like to reiterate this as it is the only way you can retain predictable and wide 'latitude with any imager (film or electronic)... Overloading a colour channel (even if its yet to be created ;-)) can be a real problem..

regards

Michael Lindsay

Hi everyone,

Forgive me if I seem like an idiot, but does this mean that I would need a mattebox in order to use the camera? I was planning on a standard HD 2/3" lens, and hope to keep things similar to what I have been using with the DXC-637 BetaSP camera I currently use. I need to run and gun and want to keep it simple.

Thanks,

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

LOL..thats what I keep telling my wife

Mine too...but fortunately she's a professional production coordinator who works with me, so she knows the value of me staying current with technology...

She's stoked to see me on tech forums because she knows I'm strengthening our future in the process...

[TimothyD]

Mine too...but fortunately she's a professional production coordinator who works with me, so she knows the value of me staying current with technology...

She's stoked to see me on tech forums because she knows I'm strengthening our future in the process...

I wish I could say that... My wife is a Sociologist, and will be working with me on documentaries, but she has little patience for my love affair with Red, since at this point, my research is all to do with my day job. We will definitely be buying one in a year or two though, but our first few docs will be shot with XL1's:sick:

[Bachman]

My wife and 3 kids think I need help

[TimothyD]

My wife and 3 kids think I need help

They are probably right, about all of us:)

I look at this research as an investment in my future though for sure, so it is only somewhat crazy. But I don't know how much more information my brain can juggle without giving up...

TGIF... I have a 12 pack of Sierra Nevada in my not too distant future...

Peace,

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Hi everyone,

Forgive me if I seem like an idiot, but does this mean that I would need a mattebox in order to use the camera? I was planning on a standard HD 2/3" lens, and hope to keep things similar to what I have been using with the DXC-637 BetaSP camera I currently use. I need to run and gun and want to keep it simple.

Thanks,

Tim

In two words TimothyD - absolutely not. If you want to shoot cine style, yes a matte box and follow focus would normally be used. If you're shooting EFP style, with your HD 2/3" lens, a matte box isn't necessary. That's not to say that you couldn't use a lightweight clip-on matte box if you chose to. If you need filters with your HD 2/3" lens during EFP style shooting, you can easily screw them onto your HD 2/3" lens barrel. Remember - RED One has no internal ND filters like the DXC 637. Filters need to be added externally to RED One if used.

Whether you're shooting RGB or RAW with RED One you have many white balance options. Re-read my post #32 of this thread, which contains recent info from RED Team on white balancing.

[Bachman]

Maybe we could ask Jim to setup a Redaholics group

[TimothyD]

Hi Gibby,

I did read that before posting, and risking sounding like an idiot, I still am a little unclear about this.

So will I need to use a filter? If so, is that just a filter that screws on the front of the lens? Or does it go between the barrel and the camera body, or in this case, the B4 adapter? I'm guessing since you said barrel that it goes in between? If so, that sounds like a pain when running and gunning.

I need to be able to follow action from indoors to outdoors, and vice versa. Is this going to be a problem for me?

Thanks again for the advice, you rock...

Tim

[TimothyD]

Maybe we could ask Jim to setup a Redaholics group

LOL...

Yeah, that I am...

Everyone I talk to about it either gets a glossed over look in their eyes, or they tell me I'm crazy to buy this camera...

Tim

[Martin Drew]

There is no filter wheel on the RedOne so you might find a lightweight matte box useful, not so much for colour correction filters, but for ND filters. In theory you could use screw on filters, but I think a matte box would be a better bet in a fast moving environment.

M

[Zakaree Sandberg]

On what planet? Auto white balance isn't used that often on professional video productions except in emergencies, but white balance is a common tool of video production.

In film, when you shoot under greenish fluorescents and shoot a grey scale under them and ask the dailies colorist to correct-out the green, essentially you are doing a form of white balancing, just not in-camera. It's just that white balance is a form of video production, whereas the RED camera is designed to act more like a film camera. But it's not a question of amateur vs. professional.

im talking about auto = amature:)

[Steve Gibby]

So will I need to use a filter? If so, is that just a filter that screws on the front of the lens? Or does it go between the barrel and the camera body, or in this case, the B4 adapter? I'm guessing since you said barrel that it goes in between? If so, that sounds like a pain when running and gunning.

I need to be able to follow action from indoors to outdoors, and vice versa. Is this going to be a problem for me?

Thanks again for the advice, you rock...

Tim

In order to use your B4 2/3" HD lens on RED One, you'll have to use a RED or Abakas adapter. Those adapters will allow you to shoot 2k REDCODE RAW if you choose, or you can shoot 1080p RGB or 720p RGB. Keeping this in mind, and then reviewing my post #32, if you're shooting RC RAW, then you have lots of adjustment options for color in REDCINE, thus precise filtering at the acquisition stage, like you would in traditional film workflows, is unnecessary. If you're shooting 1080p RGB or 720p RGB, then yes, the color values will be baked into the data, thus you need to be pretty accurate on your white balance and filtering at the acquisition stage. As Stuart mentioned, RED One will have a Auto White Balance function. Since you're not highly experienced with filters, it would probably be wise to use the Auto White Balance function when shooting with RED One until you can learn more about filters.

Yes, filters for EFP lenses screw right onto the front end of the lens. Based on what the RED Team said on white balance, going from outside to inside in a rapidly changing environment, tapping the Auto White Balance button should satisfy you're needs when shooting in an EFP, run n' gun style.

[TimothyD]

Yes, filters for EFP lenses screw right onto the front end of the lens. Based on what the RED Team said on white balance, going from outside to inside in a rapidly changing environment, tapping the Auto White Balance button should satisfy you're needs when shooting in an EFP, run n' gun style.


Thanks Gibby, that is excellent, I very rarely use auto white balance, just as I very rarely use auto levels on my mic pre's. But there are occasions where I do have to use it, such as following someone as they move from indoors to outdoors and vice-versa. It will be nice to have that option if I am ever shooting RGB, which seems unlikely. Though, I am guessing it would be preferable to keyframe white balance adjustments on Redcode raw in post, that way I don't get any unintended changes while indoors or out.

Do you know off-hand what the data rate will be for RGB 1080 in comparison to 2k Redcode raw? That is the only reason I could see myself using it at all (rarely, if ever). I am hoping that by shooting primarily in 2k Redcode raw I can pull off lots of stuff that would be impossible in 1080 RGB. (Image stabilization being a key factor, I'm hoping to manage some steadycam-esque stuff by shooting in 2k for delivery in 1080. Also for very slight keyframed camera moves.)

Thanks again,

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Do you know off-hand what the data rate will be for RGB 1080 in comparison to 2k Redcode raw? That is the only reason I could see myself using it at all (rarely, if ever). I am hoping that by shooting primarily in 2k Redcode raw I can pull off lots of stuff that would be impossible in 1080 RGB. (Image stabilization being a key factor, I'm hoping to manage some steadycam-esque stuff by shooting in 2k for delivery in 1080. Also for very slight keyframed camera moves.)

Thanks again,

Tim

I don't have those estimated data rates in front of me, and to my knowledge they have not been finalized. There has been some mention of variable data rates - user adjustable. When its locked down we'll hear about it. As a guess though, the data rate of 1080p RBG would be significantly higher than that of 2k REDCODE RAW.

[TimothyD]

Ah, then there really would be no benefit at all by going with RGB. That is the only reason I would ever consider it. RAW seems like it will be the hot ticket.

Thanks again Gibby,

BTW, I'll be contacting TV stations to see if I can get any donations of gear soon, and will let you know how that turns out. Thanks again for the advice on that...

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Ah, then there really would be no benefit at all by going with RGB. That is the only reason I would ever consider it. RAW seems like it will be the hot ticket.

Thanks again Gibby,

BTW, I'll be contacting TV stations to see if I can get any donations of gear soon, and will let you know how that turns out. Thanks again for the advice on that...

Tim

I'll be shooting REDCODE RAW almost exclusively because of the many advantages it has over RGB. Also, I'm used to shooting and editing RAW from my DSLR work, so the learning curve for using RC RAW isn't that steep. That said, there are situations where RGB makes sense, and I'm glad the RGB capability is included in RED One.

Good luck on getting some equipment donated! You may find some luck there. Be sure to bait them with the positive PR they can get for donating their used equipment to help your school out.

[TimothyD]

Thanks Gibby,

I am crossing my fingers I get a decent used HD lens out of it. I'll probably e-mail every TV station out there in a mass e-mail. I hate mass e-mails myself, so I hate to do it that way, but it seems like the most efficient way to try to get something.

Thanks,

Tim

[David Mullen ASC]

Whether you use screw-on or clamp-on filters or rectangular filters in a clip-on mattebox, you'll want to use ND filters outdoors, and probably a sunshade. Filters that can be dropped in a filter tray slot tend to be faster to switch between than screw-on filters.

Just remember that in direct sunlight at 50 ASA on a clear day, at 24 fps with a 1/48 shutter, the exposure is usually around f/16.

And the RED camera is more like a 250 to 320 ASA camera, as are many video cameras, which is why pro ENG cameras have heavy ND filters in the internal filter wheel. It's not unusual to have four or six stops worth of ND filtration on a sunny day if you want to reduce depth of field to something manageable, but as soon as the light drops or you move into shade, you need to be able to quickly swap filters.

It's also not unusual to use a Pola as a pseudo ND.60 filter.

[Martin Drew]

I am crossing my fingers I get a decent used HD lens out of it. I'll probably e-mail every TV station out there in a mass e-mail. I hate mass e-mails myself, so I hate to do it that way, but it seems like the most efficient way to try to get something.

Be cautious about mailing too many in one go, your ISP may not like it, better to do it in a number of batches. It all depends on your ISP but if they think you are a spammer they won't be happy.

M

[Blair S. Paulsen]

This forum is hardly the place for a big thread on the Sony F23 but there are features on that rig that I think are terrific.

The most impressive to me was the in-camera speed ramping: by using "variable negative gain" the camera compensates for you while you vary the frame fate from 1 to 60fps without changing the stop or the shutter angle.

This got me thinking about negative gain being applied in the camera electronics which I would think is not that difficult for what is essentially a super-computer in the RedOne. If someone with a better understanding of the nuts and bolts of what would be required to implement negative gain would like to tell me what an idiot I am I'll take it like a man, but until then...

How about user control over light sensitivity (working ISO rating) on camera? No need for ND filters (though I think a good polarizer can really help saturation and would use a clip on matte box with the pola in it for outdoor, full sun situations, even in run and gun) and in some future firmware version the RedOne might even be able to mimic the speed ramping in the F23 :detective2: .

Gibby refers to the RedOne as being most like a DSLR. On my Canon I always select an ISO rating first (100, 200, 400, 800 or even 1,600) before I pick the stop or the shutter. Assuming you wanted a 180 degree shutter on the RedOne you could essentially dial your stop by adjusting the sensitivity rating. Yes, you can do that with a box of NDs but wouldn't it be nice to have one less pack of filters to cart around, keep clean, etc and concentrate on other aspects of acquisition?

[Graeme Nattress]

Nope, you need ND because all gain effects is how the image is processed in the analogue phase before the a-to-d conversion, and basically, it cannot stop overexposure by gaining down the way an ND can.

Graeme

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Bummer. I wonder how Sony does it?

Thanks for the quick response Graeme.

[Graeme Nattress]

Lowering gain is easy. Having it act as an ND to avoid over-exposure is impossible.

Graeme

[David Mullen ASC]

Remember that -6db, which is about the most negative gain a pro ENG camera generally offers, is only a one-stop compensation, hardly enough when the light is like an f/32 outside!

The ramps on the F23 tests shown at NAB were from 24 fps to 60 fps and back, not 1 to 60 and back. 24 to 60 is around a stop and a half adjustment. With a RAW camera you could essentially stick the exposure in the middle and just time out the exposure change in post from ramping, if ramping in-camera were an option. Or just shoot at the higher frame rate and add the speed ramp in post and not worry about exposure changes, just the shutter effect changing.

I don't see what the big deal is with using ND filters on a camera is... I mean, it would be unusual to not a least have a sunshade on the camera lens outdoors in sunlight, so you could have a round ND filter attached there too, just like some people put a UV filter there as a lens protector.

Optical filters are one of the simplest and most effective methods of image control and manipulation ever invented.

Now, since the RED camera doesn't have a spinning mirror reflex shutter, I wonder if there is room between the lens and the OLPF/infrared filter for an internal filter wheel, although being a 35mm-sized sensor, it would be larger than one for a 2/3" CCD camera, maybe too large to be practical, or too close and thus risk dust being photographed into the image.

The advantage of using ND filters to control depth of field is that you also have a more consistent noise level than if you changed ASA ratings shot by shot to handle light levels, just as you don't change shutter speed shot by shot either just to handle light, because it affects your motion reproduction. That's the main difference between still photography and motion picture photography, the need for shot-to-shot matching within a sequence.

[Graeme Nattress]

We did look at filter wheels, but they realy just don't fit if you want full PL mount lens compatibility (I think).

Graeme

[David Mullen ASC]

Yes, I figured it got tight in there...

I remember discussing this once with Al Mayer, Jr., one of the designers of the Genesis -- the Panavision mount is a little farther away than the Arri PL-mount, much to the annoyance of many people (or as Joe Dunton once told me "the problem with a Panaflex is that the shutter is in the wrong f---ing place!") but one of the side benefits has traditionally been the ability to fit a filter slot in front of gate, and in the case of the Genesis, back off the OLPF a little and reduce the chance of dust being sharply rephotographed.

I don't think the Genesis kept the behind-the-lens filter slot idea -- the main reason for one has traditionally been for the operator not to have to look through heavy ND filtration in the optical viewfinder, but with an electronic viewfinder, this is a non-issue.

[Michael Lindsay]

I suspect that with these wider-latitude digital cameras, the noise issues from rating it at 5500K versus 3200K are not significant enough to warrant color-correction filters.

David,

I accept completely that the compromise of rating at 3200k with a chip that renders white at 5000k (I think after re-reading some posts this is where the chip sits) would, in most tungsten situations, make more sense than throwing away 1 1/2+ stops ..

Here in the UK we see grey bleak days that have hours so blue that I would feel much happier optically correcting (even if I wanted to retain some of the blue)...you sunkissed Californian types might not have such problems ;-)

To further agree.....I really can't see how any red users can avoid optical filtration... If they are happy to live with the latitude loss of pulling 17000k to 3200k (for that warm film they are making) that's one thing.... But the impact, as you have already mentioned, of not shooting with ND is really not trivial. Especially for you 'sunkissed Californian types'...

I realise a matte box and a basic set of filters seems expensive to allot of people on this list... They feel overprice for the material involved.. I would favour working with a 2nd hand Sachtler head, a full Matte box and basic set of ND's than a new Oconnor head and no filtration and a bit of black wrap to deal with flare.. It all a question of how people spend their money and they will have to spend some money. Or as is more usual in film/Tv they can 'hire'!

regards

Michael Lindsay

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I guess my fiendish plan to eliminate the need for a pack of ND filters won't work, bummer. For the record I have a bellows style matte box mounted on my current rig and use it regularly for EFP as well as Cine style shoots - I am one of the convergence shooters Gibby often refers to and have become dependent on a matte box. Yes, even for run and gun I just leave it on and have even stashed 4x4 filters in my cargo pockets for quick insertion.
Moreover, even though I do have a traditional video camera filter wheel it does not have an ND option at 3200K so in order to shorten DoF I use Schnieder NDs. But I digress.

The more interesting issue in the evolving world of motion media is the actual or de-facto DI becoming commonplace. It begs the question of which manipulation is best done optically in front of the lens vs electronically in camera or digitally in post. There is a whole matrix of inter-related issues depending on the camera being used, the exposure environment, dynamic range and color gamut of the imager and recording system, material being shot, etc.

It is an exciting time to be an image maker and IMHO anyone who really wants to explore it thoroughly will heed the words of the David Mullen and others who sing the praises of optical filtration - its not just for projects with no DI or grade in the budget.

[Graeme Nattress]

Michael, we have a trick whereby you don't loose the DR you think you'd loose. It's called the 'Highlight' slider in Redcine, which under unbalanced lighting conditions gives you an extra stop or so in the highlights. That said, DR loss through white balancing is negligible, and given the wonderful things colorists like to do to footage, you've got to remember than any adjustment to the image is going to have similar effects unless you nail it in camera which is just NOT how to shoot with a RAW camera.

Graeme

[Karl H]

Lowering gain is easy. Having it act as an ND to avoid over-exposure is impossible.

Graeme

so Graeme, how does the selectable ISO work on DSLR's? I often shoot outdoors at 100ASA with no need for any ND filters (granted I'm limited to a fast shutter speed).

will Red have a selectabe ISO rating? It would be great so we can have the option of a completely noise free image at 100/200 or ramp it up to 1600 for low light shooting.

[Graeme Nattress]

Answer is easy, "because you have a fast shutter speed". That is stopping the light over-filling the sensor.

Selectable ISO - yes, I think. Yes noise free at low ISO.

Graeme

[martinnoweck]

Nope, you need ND because all gain effects is how the image is processed in the analogue phase before the a-to-d conversion, and basically, it cannot stop overexposure by gaining down the way an ND can.

Graeme

If I understand you right: the image is still too "hot" and this is the reason gaining down doesn't work?

Does gaining down affect image quality?

Martin

[Graeme Nattress]

Yes, gaining down will increase quantisation noise, and could therefore decrease quality.

Graeme

[martinnoweck]

Thanks Graeme, good to know!

[Graeme Nattress]

Ideally, you want the expsosure to fill as much of the 0-4095 12bit a-to-d range as possible, without clipping, to record the most information from the scene. When the dynamic range is greater than that recordable, you've got to then decide which part of the tonal range is most important and expose accordingly, but that's the same for both film and digital.

Graeme

[Steve Gibby]

Whether you use screw-on or clamp-on filters or rectangular filters in a clip-on mattebox, you'll want to use ND filters outdoors, and probably a sunshade. Filters that can be dropped in a filter tray slot tend to be faster to switch between than screw-on filters.

The use of ND filters is almost always necessary when shooting outdoors, whether it’s in a cine-style or EFP style workflow. Timothy wanted to know if him using a matte box on his 2/3” HD lenses was mandatory, which it isn’t, but as I indicated, he would still need to use screw on filters. If he already has screw on filters for his 2/3” HD lens, or he has access to some, can’t afford a matte box, or a matte box won’t fit in the spaces he’s working in for an EFP workflow, then screw on filters are an option. You correctly noted that drop in filters are faster, but I did suggest to him in my post #55 that if he needs to use a matte box that a lightweight clip on matte box would be the best for his mobile EFP workflow.


Just remember that in direct sunlight at 50 ASA on a clear day, at 24 fps with a 1/48 shutter, the exposure is usually around f/16.

In the EFP workflow that Timothy uses on his DXC-637, he uses zebras and a +6/9/18 DB gain toggle switch to set exposure. Obviously setting exposure on RED one will be a learning experience for him, but though RED One is a manually operated camera, it’s an electronic camera with a close pedigree to DSLR cameras. Since Timothy is an EFP user, I’d say that he won’t be using a hand held light meter as some RED adopters from the traditional film industry will still choose to do with RED One. Getting to proper exposure is the point. He’ll probably be using the exposure tools that RED has developed for the RED One camera: an interactive histogram and a waveform monitor that are viewable on the EVF or LCD, either full view, or in scaled down version in the periphery of the frame. Again an indication of RED One’s pedigree: histogram use with CMOS sensors, and shooting RAW is pervasive throughout the DSLR industry – not the video industry, and certainly not the film industry. The use and feature set of RED One’s exposure tools were not fully unveiled at NAB, but here’s a simple explanation by Graeme of exposure with RED one:

“1) shoot RAW. That makes digital cinema a lot more easy to use.

2) expose correctly. Expose to the right - just like you do with a DSLR.

3) SNR = Dynamic range. You place the white clipping point where you want it, and let the shadows fall where they fall.”

Graeme
11/20/06
DVX
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=78640

Once RED fully unveils the exposure tools incorporated in RED One we can evaluate them. IMO nobody is going to have to use a hand held light meter with RED One to achieve accurate exposure. They may choose to because that is their comfort zone workflow, which is fine, but they won’t have to if RED One’s exposure tools can get the job done quickly and accurately. I’ll have one of the first shipping RED One cameras and it will be tested extensively, including the exposure controls, thus we should have some real world answers soon.



And the RED camera is more like a 250 to 320 ASA camera, as are many video cameras, which is why pro ENG cameras have heavy ND filters in the internal filter wheel. It's not unusual to have four or six stops worth of ND filtration on a sunny day if you want to reduce depth of field to something manageable, but as soon as the light drops or you move into shade, you need to be able to quickly swap filters.

Timothy mentioned that he has been using a DXC-637 BetaCam SP camcorder, a camera I am familiar with and used some time ago. As such he knows that pro ENG cameras have filter wheels, because his 637 does. As I remember, the DXC-637 has a 4-filter internal wheel:

#1 – 3200k
#2 – 5600k + 1/16ND
#3 – 5600k + 1/8ND
#4 – 5600K + 1/4ND

The DXC-637 has auto-iris capability, which is switched by a slider switch on the lens servo, by the rocker switch. It also has a manual position for iris. Zebra is available, and probably used by Timothy to help achieve correct exposure.

White balance on the DXC-637 is via a 3-position switch: A and B manual WB, and an Auto WB setting.

When I use an ENG camera, and I’m rapidly going from interior to exterior lighting, I’ll either do a quick manual WB on two different filters (1 for interior, 2/3/ or 4 for exterior), and switch between them as I move between lighting environments, or if it is unfeasible to switch because of time constraints or multiple environments, then use the auto WB.

For rapid movement from indoor to outdoor lighting with RED One, Timothy won’t have the filter wheel he is used to, so he’ll need to use the RED One histogram and manually screw on or drop in filters on the fly – something that will take getting used to for him. In cases like that, a lightweight snap-on matte box, like I previously suggested to him in my post #55, and drop in filters would be the fastest method. If he has more time and can re-setup the rig, then screw in filters, and a sun shade (naturally), would be workable.


---------------------------------------

As Graeme just mentioned in his post #80, he believes RED One will have selectable ISO rating (or maybe the equivalent, I’d say), thus another indication of RED One’s close pedigree to DSLR use. In his post #82 he then warns about the effects of gaining down on image quality.

---------------------------------------

In my post #61 I summarized for Timothy the difference in front-end approaches when shooting RAW vs. RGB – values baked in with RGB, but flexible with RAW. I think the cool thing with a RED/RAW/REDCINE workflow is the flexibility at the acquisition stage, and the ability tweak the footage in REDCINE: de-mosaic, profile, white balance, grading, colormetry. That workflow will be very familiar to those of use who also shoot DSLR RAW and process RAW with software tools. It will not be familiar to TV/video shooters and editors, and definitely not be familiar to traditional film shooters. I’ve been immersed in all three mediums (video, film, DSLR), and I sincerely welcome the DSLR-like acquisition and processing workflow of RED One/RAW/REDCINE. That’s not to say it’s identical by any means. A motion camera is a different animal than a stills camera.

When I work as a cinematographer, I’m used to nailing down the values and parameters of the image at the acquisition stage. When I work as a videographer I’m used to nailing down most of the values at the acquisition stage, but also having reasonable opportunity to salvage slightly over/under values in post. When I work as a still photographer in a DSLR workflow, shooting RAW, I’m used to nailing down certain exact values (focus, etc.), but with RAW having the non-baked in flexibility to apply custom curves and adjust the parameters of the images. Within the boundaries that Graeme described in my quote of him above, and his posts on this thread, I see my workflow with RED One to most closely approximate that of my DSLR workflow, at the acquisition stage and in the processing of the RAW files before editing - keeping in mind the obvious differences in using motion cameras as opposed to still cameras.

RED One is a convergence camera system, using S35mm and S16 cine lenses, 35mm still lenses, B4 2/3” lenses, RAW and RGB, and thus can be accessorized and lensed for a wide variety of cine-style and EFP style production genres. Beyond it’s utility, I think the cool thing about RED One is that it brings together all the “tribes” of the motion media community - and in the process, the input, techniques, and technology of cinematographers, videographers, and still photographers will help further the boundaries of professional image making.

Media convergence is upon us...


---------------------------------------------


Good to have you here on RED User Dave – your insight is welcome and valuable to this think tank of a community.

[TimothyD]

Media convergence is upon us...

That is a truly liberating thing Gibby, and I welcome it.

You were right on with everything you said about my camera and workflow.

I think for starters considering my limited budget, I'll be going with screw on filters. And while there will be occasions where I probably could benefit from a clip-on mattebox, I will give using screw on filters a shot first.


He’ll probably be using the exposure tools that RED has developed for the RED One camera: an interactive histogram and a waveform monitor that are viewable on the EVF or LCD, either full view, or in scaled down version in the periphery of the frame.

It sounds as if the histogram and waveform monitor are going to be extremely helpful no matter what the situation. I'm guessing that between shooting RAW, using the zebra, histogram and waveform monitor it should be possible to first be in the ballpark, and then tweak appropriately in post.

I had read in a thread mentioning the supergrip, that by setting button presets on it, you will be able to adjust gain on each channel to avoid clipping. Do you think this will be something that is necessary for the average shooter, like myself? I can imagine it being a useful tool, but do you think being able to control them on the run will be necessary?

I suppose I should mention that the content and nature of what I shoot is essentially a documentary style. There are situations that require something more akin to ENG style at times, but more often I have time to plan and prepare a bit. I never use lights of any kind, except when shooting interviews, in which case I usually use a Lowell LC-55 soft box. I will maybe splash some light on the background, and occasionally use a backlight. So as you can imagine, I never shoot anything that requires intense tweaking to try to capture a particular look. The only thing I ever shoot that needs to have a cinematic quality are campus scenics. When shooting scenics I always have the opportunity to plan and experiment, and choose the days I shoot them based on a combination of weather and the number of students on campus. (shots of campus with no students = bad scenics:) I work for Public Relations, so we want nice looking footage of students enjoying the campus.


I shoot almost entirely indoors during the winter months (Michigan) and primarily outdoors during the summer, aside from interviews (which also can often be outdoors when it is nice out).


Once again Gibby I want to thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge. You would make a great video/film professor:)

Tim

[TimothyD]

Also Gibby, your discussion of the similarity of Red and DSLR's made me realize that I should borrow one of the cameras from our in-house photographer and do some experimenting with RAW.

I myself, being just out of grad school have never had the money to buy a digital body to replace my old Nikon, yet...

I imagine some experimenting could really help me prepare to transition to the Red. Sadly, I won't be ordering my Red until July 1st, which means I will have a LOOOONG wait before it finally arrives, sometime next year from what I've read. (Red Team: I think you might want to think about building a few dozen factories considering the demand you are going to see for this camera:)

[Steve Gibby]

As always, glad to help Timothy....

In answer to your question about the SuperGrip, If you're using a 12 volt auxiliary powered B4 2/3" HD lens with RED One you'll have zoom power to the rocker switch on your lens. The SuperGrip sounds real interesting - I've also been checking it out. The posts about the SuperGrip by Stuart English that tweaked my interest are these:

"We brought a couple of non-operational prototypes of the SuperGrip to NAB to get some feedback on functionality and price points.

Pricing and delivery dates for SuperGrip and RED MOTOR will be announced later.

The buttons on the SuperGrip act as extensions to the camera control surfaces, i.e the buttons can be programmed to do whatever you want them to do - White Balance, Clip Replay etc etc The force sensitive key can be attached to a number of devices - motors, audio levels, shutter speeds - whatever is most appropriate to your application.

Stuart English
4/27/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=35700&posted=1#post35700


That same comment about these buttons being extensions of the camera control surface can also be applied to the RED EVF viewfinder keys and potentiometer BTW...

Stuart (same thread)"


If we can interactively control the functions he mentions from the SuperGrip that's very cool. I will buy a SuperGrip, no doubt.

Definitely...get a DSLR and learn the RAW workflow. It will help you with your approach to RED One.

As for being a professor, I've taught and mentored many "students" in on-the-job training during my career. I've also taught workshops at film festivals. I enjoy it! I love college. I have a bachelors degree and a total of six years of college completed, all of which overlapped my working career in motion media. Learning is a never-ending process in as tech-intensive an industry as ours. I get up each morning fully expecting to learn a ton of new things about creating images...and I usually do. We never arrive at a destination in this industry...we only pass stations along the way. I wouldn't have it any other way...

[Ralph Oshiro]

I suspect that with these wider-latitude digital cameras, the noise issues from rating it at 5500K versus 3200K are not significant enough to warrant color-correction filters. And the trouble is that while it would be easy to use something like an 85 filter outdoors if it would help noise problems, I think the "native" balance of these sensors (where they are happiest) is closer to daylight than tungsten, and it's really not practical to use blue filters indoors when shooting in tungsten balance due to the high filter factor of blue and the low light levels employed by tungsten.

People forget just how far in the red spectrum tungsten lamps are -- even tungsten-balance color negative has to design a fast and therefore grainy blue layer just to compensate.
Yeah. My DSR450 is very pretty, but I'm starting to notice that it seems to white balance shockingly differently than, say, the BVW400s/600s I shoot with at work. Check this out: I'm currently shooting a personal short film with my DSR450. It's a night interior that's strongly backlit with a Joker400 HMI. Even though I'm on my daylight preset, the DSR450 photographs the Joker's output as slightly "blue." (I've used this exact same Joker at work with a BVW400 on its 5600K preset, and it photographs perfectly white.) I also have daylight flourescent desk lamps ("Ott" lights) as practicals sitting on a desk in the scene. They balance very "white" on the daylight DSR450 preset. Then, I fill the actress from a standard, 2-foot, 2-bank KinoFlo, lamped at 3200K. The Kino (which usually photographs a bit weird on video anyway) balances just fine--in other words, the 3200K-lamped Kino photographs "white" on the same 5600K DSR450 preset, with only the slightest "hint" of "warm." I've never seen a video camera, with this combination of sources, render the color that way. Weird. But it looked great, and was exactly what I wanted. (I would post a frame, but that violates a contest rule.)