Too much information...

[GoGo]

Too Much Information, Ghost in the Machine, The Police. I don't read this forum without that song now.

Six months now I've had my money down on a RED, waiting. Best camera I could buy. Value far surpassed price. Greatest money I could spend.

Then a month ago from Jim, "The world is in financial turmoil... please think twice"

First I soiled myself, then I did more math. I'm still in.

Then the Epic and Scarlet press. All hell broke loose. Thousands of users on Recon, two hundred thousand hits on threads two days old, some owners extatic, others miffed, chaos everywhere..

"I can see REDs going for 5k in a year. My RED is obsolete and it's not even here yet. Maybe ten K for an upgrade sensor and I'll only have one more stop? Sell your RED to an Epic buyer. It's the best image anywhere / horrible frame grab of a grainy English castle. Your RED's here now - when will Scarlet really be here...?"

Everyone's got an opinion, many have solutions, lots have projections.

I had to put a mirror behind my chair so I could still read REDUSER while my head spun in circles.

Now, days later, it's calmer again. But you can still smell the smoke as you sift through the bodies of edited and deleted posts.

I guess this marketing strategy works for RED but now my train is derailed and I'm a mess inside my head. Yesterday I found myself on Craigs searching through 16mm cameras...

It'll be a stretch for me to buy this RED. I admit it. When I buy my first camera here, perhaps even now still this RED, I will not be interested in upgrading to an Epic. Depending on this year I plan to either buy a Scarlet ff35 as my second camera, or sell the RED all together and resign myself to go manage a Wendy's.

So does a potential RED buyer wait a bit to buy a used RED package (I almost bought Hunter's but he backed out last night), maybe get a better deal, save on tax, get a jump on depreciation - then deal with sound board upgrade communication challenges, warranty challenges, sensor upgrade challenges, etc. Or do you give the green light to the RED you have on reserve because "If it's a solid business plan, it's a solid business plan - stop being so fragile?"

Or do you wait, again, to buy the next generation of obsolescence?

By the way, no, I do not look at a camera purchased as something that should hold it's value. I see it as a way to rent it, for less. I'm just struggling a bit to buy into what "feels" now like a stock after it has peaked.

Next time RED says they're about to release a camera that doesn't exist yet, I'm turning off the computer.


Not that it matters, my real name is Eric Gulbransen. I'm no one in this business.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Sleep on it.

Situation is complicated, but not exactly of a particle physics difficulty level.

;-))

Jochen

[Hans von Sonntag]

Not that it matters, my real name is Eric Gulbransen. I'm no one in this business.

It does matter. Chin up!

Kind Regards,

Hans

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Hi Eric,

only you can decide about your money.

Personally, this is my opinion:

- A Red is still a great camera to buy, even with the coming of Epic/Scarlet. It still holds middle ground in their line-up.

- That being said, if you have to worry, financially, to buy a camera from which you ain't sure it will give you a return in investment, is... worrysome.
I don't know your situation, but being able to buy food, pay the rent, have some reserve for when things go bad, is more important then buying a 4K digital cinema camera. Especially if this is your first camera, maybe you should try beginning with (for instance) a Sony EX1. It gives great pictures, at a dramatically lower price point then RED. It won't be RED-quality, but you'll be able to shoot nice things, and maybe make some money with it. Maybe enough to be able to buy a RED, without worrying financially.

I think the reason why Jim made that post was that he knew many of his customers would reach to buy a RED. I think he wanted to protect them from doing stupid things. Buying a RED camera if you have money to spare, of a good business plan that won't affect your personal finances, is not stupid. But reaching to far, just to buy that one camera, is stupid. It can turn out well, but it can turn out bad. Jim cared, and that's why he made that post. That's why I type this answer too, I suppose.

Best regards,

[GoGo]

Thank you sidderke, and Josch and Hans.

No it's not my first camera. I've gone XLII, HD200, and now looking at RED. I've also paid for these cameras with the cameras themselves. But this doesn't make me a pro. I Know that. I've got a good grip on reality. I also know that the money I put into my HD200 rig put me right in RED territory anyway - after the monitor, Brevis, deck, batteries, rails, etc. etc. you've all been through it a million times I don't need to list it.... Lastly, video is not my main gig. Maybe this knocks my confidence a few notches down on this board, but it also offers me some solid ground to combat our economic stresses from off this board, and away from this business.

For sure it's all the noise on here for the past week. You have to admit, it's been a bit confusing. And most people's opinions/plans/projections contradict the ones just above and just below their posts. I guess it's all just got me twisted, because 25 grand is not chump change to me.

I'll figure it out - new, used, wait for a Scarlet. Neither will kill me financially no matter what the economy does. I'm a carpenter, I'll build a lean-to.

Thanks again guys,

GoGo

[Scott Mason]

Next time RED says they're about to release a camera that doesn't exist yet, I'm turning off the computer.

I laughed out loud when I read this, thanks ;)

scott

[Craig Parkes]

My only advice is have a plan - that depends on you not your equipment.

If the plan depends on you - then the equipment is just a means to an end - paying it back, on selling it, buying new gear etc is just a modification of THE PLAN.

If your plan depends on your equipment, rather than you, you will fail in business and the equipment will be a noose around your neck. This is true of everything and every company - including rental places (a rental place with the best equipment, and bad service, isn't going to be a rental place for long.)

What can YOU do with Red. That's the big question - if the plan and the need is there now, then it would seem advantageous to get a Red working and establish yourself as a person who can work with a Red and do the job. That way, even if you sell it later on, you'll have the clients and be able to get the jobs based on YOU and just rent the camera when needed, surely, and work with something else (Scarlet, or something else) on a day to day basis.

[Scott Mason]

A good rule of thumb we use is: If you need to rent a piece of equipment and the rental will come to about half of the purchase price then we go ahead and buy the equipment. This is not a rule because if it is the only time you would ever use it then I would not follow the rule, and if it's a piece of gear I would like to use (for personal reasons etc.) Then we will even purchase the piece of equipment if the rental only covers a fourth of the cost.

These are numbers you have to work out based on your own financial income. I guess what I am saying is it does not seem prudent to buy a red camera if you do not have the clients in place who are already willing to rent it from you (most likely rent you and the camera). This goes hand in hand with what Craig Parkes is saying. Your clients should be interested in you first, and your equipment second. If you make amazing stories and pictures with a dv camera, they will be happy, and of course you must give good customer service.

In my exerience clients will even pay you more than the next guy if they like working with you. Sometimes it's smarter to hire people you get along with versus the guy with the cheap gear who is a jerk ;)

With that said I have purchased items that would not even be on the rental list because I liked them alot or they made my job easier. Sometimes easier workflow is worth whatever you are willing to pay ;)

I know there are many challenges to the rule I have set forth, but everything must be weighed in your best interests, you can not make a major financial decision based on what other people say, you need to gather as much information as you can and then analyze it and come up with your own results.

That said I never would have bought a camera this expensive in my life, and am thankful every day I use it that we made that decision. It really is the best camera I have ever owned ;) And I feel safe that I will use if for many years to come, no matter what happens with scarlet and epic ;)

P.S. we did not follow this rule with red, we just reviewed our income and saw that even if the camera did not rent other cameras would (HVX-200, etc) and our post production income would all offset the cost, plus we are indy film makers and knew that we would save every last penny we had to have a camera like this in our arsenal no matter whether we rented it or not, we were just fortunate our clients all saw the value of the camera and chose to use it consistantly, and now we can make films with it!! ;)

good luck
scott

[GoGo]

Thanks even more, guys. When I consider the advice, and the "rules", I am still on track to buy one of these cameras. This brings me back to ground zero again - which one to buy. That's the real question I'm facing. Weighing the differences and understanding the laws between:

1 - buying a used RED package now and dealing with any hangups that might come along with this like warranties, upgrades, trade-in policies.

2 - buying a new one for @ 4 grand more, and not having to deal with any issues anywhere.

1 & 2 are related to each other by the same facts. What issues exist for used RED ONE owners, and what is their dollar value? IE, if all I would have to do is have the original owner call RED and tell them to ship the camera with a new sound board to me instead of them, well then that's worth $4,000. If I can still pay to extend the warranty, and can still use this used camera as a trade-in to epic (even though I am not the original owner), well then that's worth four grand too. But if I would forfeit these options by buying a used RED, then that's not worth four grand to me at all.

3 - sit back and wait for a Scarlet.

Right now these are the facts that I do not have yet, so my head is spinning a bit. Is there somewhere this information is listed? I have read through many pages and many arguments all related to these questions. Lots of them contradicted one another and many of them seemed to be based on theory rather than fact.

By the way option #3 is the least attractive to me. And yes I do have clients, jobs, and personal uses (I shoot wildlife constantly) ready and waiting for this camera. In the last year, besides paying gigs, I shot about 150hrs of wildlife all on my own. Then one day I asked myself what the HDV footage was worth. That's when I sent my RED deposit in.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Then one day I asked myself what the HDV footage was worth. That's when I sent my RED deposit in.

There's the rub.

Hi "GoGo" (heh.): Here's my meager contribution. If you're going to buy now, you have to be sure that either RED ONE or EPIC is the camera that you want because those will be your available upgrade pathways. You effectively rule out SCARLET as an option by buying right away, unless you plan to buy a second camera or replacement camera. And I am betting that SCARLET will be a nearly perfect wildlife camera, especially with lenses that you already own with the JVC. Nikon, yes?

[GoGo]

Oh, Meryem, you sassy thing! How are you girl? I miss the UWOL like you read about... But I'm still out there just about every weekend, 5am. Only I'm stuck shooting stills for the time being.

Great point on the Scarlet. Exactly the insight I need. Yes, I've got a great library of Nikon glass by now. I've even upgraded to an 8-core mac over the summer in preparation for this move, and began selling some of my unusable RED gear.

By the way thanks for the influence.... ;- )

Not so much for wildlife, but more for paying jobs, I would really love a second camera/angle. So you are right, my path would not be an upgrade to Epic. It would simply be the addition of a Scarlet, or like I said I torch the whole deal and go work at Wendy's. With the jobs, projects, and fun I have lined up right now one year should be enough time for me to tell if I can do more than just pay for the RED. That's why I'm curious about the trade-in value of a non original owner RED, for an Epic. Mostly for resale down the road, if it came to that. But I don't think it will come to that. I just like to have worst case scenarios worked out before hand.


Oh and by the way, the "GoGo" does have fun meaning - just not in the pole dancing sort of way

[Meryem Ersoz]

pole dancing was in my head, but that's much more macho!

I hope you're still thanking me when you're standing in the bread line!

Seriously, it's awesome that you're getting paid for what you do so well. You're our third member of the UWOL gang to go seriously pro, shoot me a line sometime and give me all of the juicy details. I'd love to know what you're doing.

If you're an image slut, you can't go wrong with any flavor of RED, the rest is just head games about weight/price/accessories. Oh, the fun we can have!

[Craig Parkes]

Not so much for wildlife, but more for paying jobs, I would really love a second camera/angle. So you are right, my path would not be an upgrade to Epic. It would simply be the addition of a Scarlet, or like I said I torch the whole deal and go work at Wendy's.

With the jobs, projects, and fun I have lined up right now one year should be enough time for me to tell if I can do more than just pay for the RED. That's why I'm curious about the trade-in value of a non original owner RED, for an Epic. Mostly for resale down the road, if it came to that. But I don't think it will come to that. I just like to have worst case scenarios worked out before hand.

I think there is an easy answer to this - how much is a year filming amazing, awesome imagery is worth to you, compared to as you so succinctly put it - a year working at Wendys?

If those were my two choices, I know personally US$17,500 plus whatever lost income for a year is a SMALL price to pay, but I am young and have no dependents etc. If it was debt, then that's another issue, but spending savings on a lifestyle choice as exciting as that would really seem like a no brainer to me.

If your thinking is similar to mine, assuming your accessories will hold reasonable value (almost certainly) then even if your RED has no resale value at ALL, then shooting sooner rather than later seems the obvious choice.

Now - before someone asks I am not a RED owner, because A) I don't have that spare change saved up yet, and B) I happily work in post production, and am happy to rent for production - I haven't chosen the lifestyle of a shooter - going out to crazy locations, always moving about, never knowing where the next job comes from etc.

That's a lifestyle choice - irrespective of what camera you make a living from. The people having a tough time making the decision to buy or wait in my opinion haven't made that choice yet.

Those who have made that choice, and find RED of any flavour a suitable option, will buy a RED ONE now, and know that they will have a tool that will do the business for years to come, AND if things go well they can choose to upgrade to epic, or by a second camera.

Not everyone's a shooter - some want cameras for other reasons - but what Jim has put together as an option, to me, seems like an almost fail safe offer for shooters - way better value than anything they've ever been offered in the past.

[GoGo]

Agreed Craig. Thanks for that.


Now on to some very interesting investigative detail work considering the situation people like myself are in right now - "What to do, buy a new RED, buy a used RED, or wait for Scarlet?" This info is direct from RED - not speculation or rumor. John, the Grand Imperial Tech-head Jedi Master at RED, dove deep into the bowels of RED to give my partner Brian the following facts over the phone:

Option 1 - Buying a used RED OFF the RED radar (unsanctioned by RED)

No warranty coverage. No full trade-in value for an Epic. No 12% discount off Scarlet. You will pay full price for the new sound board. You will not get first shot at an Epic/Scarlet based on the camera's build number.

Option 2 - Buying a used RED ON the RED radar (sanctioned by RED)

Both you and the camera's original owner contact RED and make arrangements to have the camera shipped directly to RED. RED breaks the camera down and subjects it to QC (quality control - all systems check). This costs you $500. RED then certifies the camera and gives you a three month warranty. This costs you $700. So you're at $1,200 total.

Now you DO get a free sound board upgrade. However RED resets the clock on your build number. Essentially you are now assigned a new one, based on the date of your new warranty. So you have NO priority as far as jumping ahead in the Epic/Scarlet line.


To me this means RED ONE owners can rest easy. Yes it's confirmed, your buyer can trade your RED in for an Epic on the up and up, so the value of your camera is not going down any time soon. However if done legit you've got to take at least a $1,200 hit right off the bat. So don't anyone go buying used REDs for more than $16,300.


Are we all clear now? Is anyone about to thank me for answering my own questions? Well don't yet, because an hour after that phone conversation took place my partner Brian got an email from Chala at RED. That mail states the following, contradictory information:

"If you buy a RED one from the original owner you will be able to upgrade to an EPIC. However, this does not mean you will have priority. You will be in line according to your delivery date, not the previous owners. This means that your new delivery date will be the day you and the old owner change over the information."


So here we go again, "Too much information.."



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Brian mailed RED back kind of late so I'll post up tomorrow when the next RED rep clarifies the contradiction.