Shotgun Mics

[PaulClements]

Anyone have any preferences to make and model that will be suitable for use with RedOne?

[TimothyD]

I am planning to buy the Rode NTG-2. I have heard a lot of good things about it, and it is very affordable. I'm sure that a Schoeps or Sennheiser would be nicer, but for me I think this will do the job nicely.

I've always been a big fan of Audio Technica as well. People try to talk trash about them, but they offer excellent mics for the money. I have often chosen AT mics that cost half as much over fancy pants Neumann's, etc. It mainly is a matter of what you are looking for. AT mics are just accurate, they impart almost no color to the sound. For some people that is a good thing, for some bad. For me, I want accuracy, to hell with warm sound (unless you are talking about close miking vocals, that is a different beast.)

Cheers,

Tim

[Elvar Guðmundsson]

I'm using a Sennheiser MKH-416. It's very good but I'd like to upgrade to the Sennheiser MKH-60 when I get my RED858.

[Cail Young]

The NTG-2 is great. It's also Australian!

[TimothyD]

The NTG-2 is great. It's also Australian!

Yep, I've heard nothing but good things about Rode. I don't own any yet, the NTG-1 will be my first. But I have read many reviews on them, and never a negative word.

[Steve Gibby]

I've had good results with Sennheiser over the years, but I've also used shotguns from other makers. I'll be looking for a good short shotgun, because many of the camera setups I use have lenses that are physically short, like the RED 18-50 and wide primes, I need to keep the mic out of the frame, and I need to be real mobile.

A 6" shotgun with excellent pattern and response will be my ambient audio ticket for mobile use.

When using a sound man and mixer, that's a whole different story...there's a lot of options there...

[Christopher Barry]

Try the test (http://dvestore.com/theatre/mics.html), don't peak. :biggrin:

[Martin Drew]

Hi Paul

There are a load of mic demo samples here (http://www.dvfreelancer.com/articles/shotgun_shootout.html) that might be worth listening to. I am not sure how objective these test are because they don't take into account the different places you might use a mic. I think they are all recorded in one location, in one setup but it is a starting point at least.

One thing to bear in mind when choosing a Short shotgun is that they each have strengths and weaknesses so in an ideal world you might chose to have a few mics and use a different one depending upon the situation. For example the Sennheiser MKH-416 has better cancellation of off axis sounds than the MKH-60 so it tends to perform better when trying to pickout a single sound source. However the MKH-60 has lower noise and because of its wider pattern is good for recording a group. Each mic has it's own sound too which you may or may not like (all very subjective). Personally I am sticking with my MKH-416.

M

[createra]

I'm buying a couple of Earthworks SR30. It's a Cardioid not a Shotgun...

The Studio Recordings I have heard (QTC 40, TC25, SR25) are among the best that I have ever listened to.

You can order a free Demo CD here: http://www.earthworksaudio.com/

[Finner]

I picked up a RODE NTG1 at NAB for a great price. The camera has phantom power so I saw no need to buy the NTG2 as the battery compartment is the only difference and why have that extra length on the mic if you dont need it.

[martinnoweck]

Hi Paul,

I have a Sennheiser MKH 416 and a Neumann KMR 81 and I hope I still can use them with my RED ... the MKH 60 is not a bad choice either, in my ears a little bit to sharp. If you are on a budget I would definitely test the RODE.

Martin

[TimothyD]

Ah, good advice Finner. Didn't realize that was the difference. I had just read a lot of good reviews of the NTG-2.

Cretera,

Earthworks mics sound fantastic. But don't you think that they are a little fragile for this type of application?

[Michael Mann]

I will use the sennheiser MKH 418 (MS-Stereo).

[Finner]

Ah, good advice Finner. Didn't realize that was the difference. I had just read a lot of good reviews of the NTG-2.


From my resarch they are exactly the same except for the battery power option on the NTG2 and it's longer length, maybe more of an audio guy can clairify. As I mainly do audio with a mixer and boom guy I just wanted one on the camera to pick up ambient and for the odd pick up shot with no audio team or for an interview here and there. The RODE seemed like a good choice. No complaints so far.

[TimothyD]

Well,

The length of a shotgun is related to its polar pattern. The longer it is (more ports) the more it rejects off-axis sounds.

So it is possible that the NTG-2 is more directional than the NTG-1. I can't say for sure though, and it has been quite a while since I read any reviews on it, so I don't remember any details. Just glowing reviews.

[Clint Johnson]

I've been using the Sennheiser ME66 which has been giving yeoman's service and is a good match to the DVX100- but I don't want to cheap out on the audio with the Red One.

Just may have to bite the bullet and look into the MKH60.

[Bruce Allen]

New Sankens are excellent. If you're doing interiors with a Schoeps MK41, go with a Schoeps CMIT-5. Otherwise, Sennheiser is good!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[createra]

Earthworks mics sound fantastic. But don't you think that they are a little fragile for this type of application?

I plan to use them for interviews indoors.

[TimothyD]

I plan to use them for interviews indoors.

Then you will have some truly lush dialogue.

And you could do some nice recordings of acoustic music/instruments and lots of other stuff.

Glad to hear you won't be running and gunning with those though:biggrin:

Tim

[David Collard]

I've had good results with Sennheiser over the years, but I've also used shotguns from other makers. I'll be looking for a good short shotgun... A 6" shotgun with excellent pattern and response will be my ambient audio ticket for mobile use.


I've also heard some good reviews of "Sanken". Investigate the CS-1 short shotgun microphone. The CSS-5 is also used a lot for recording sound effects.

[David Battistella]

I haven't seen the mic mounts for the RED. Is there an option to purchase the microphone mount for RED? Does it come with one of the production packages? I did not see anything to do with microphones in the the brochure that lists all of the available parts and accesories.

Also, because this camera is devoid of a tape system, is it relativley quiet? I can't imagine that it would have to be "blimped" or anything like that.


David

[TimothyD]

Also, because this camera is devoid of a tape system, is it relativley quiet? I can't imagine that it would have to be "blimped" or anything like that.

Hi David,

Actualy the only reason you would use a windscreen of any kind is if there is a problem with wind. I always take it off indoors, as it muffles the sound a little bit. Having said that, camera noise does get into a mic if it is present. For this very reason I only use my on camera shotgun when I want nat sound (I always have it on for redundancy though, but I only use that channel if the lav has a problem). If I'm on a tripod the entire time though, I might use an omni or other mic instead. Particularly when recording music.

But yeah, I think the camera should be pretty damn quiet, if not silent.

Does anyone here who saw the camera in person at NAB know if it makes any sound at all? I'd imagine the raid makes a tiny bit of noise, but not a lot considering the enclosure. Probably not enough to even notice it if you picked it up at all. (It will nearly always reside on the rear of the camera, roughly 180 degrees off-axis).

Tim

[chuck colburn]

I think he meant a camera blimp not a microphone zepplin.

But that gives me a idea...how about a three way camera housing incorperating a crash, sound and underwater housing all in one unit! lol

[David Battistella]

Tim,

Sorry I wasn't more clear. Some film magazines were so loud that they needed to be "blimped" or covered with a material that would reduce the motor noise coming from the magazine.

I wasn't talking about covering the microphone.

Thanks.

David

[TimothyD]

Lol,

Gotcha. Yeah, I had heard them called zeppelin as Chuck pointed out and was thinking of that. Up here in Michigan, we don't know too much about film:)

I took filmmaking '91 and shot a bit with an ancient 16mm (1960's Canon if memory serves me correctly) and I also shot a lot on Super-8 growing up. But never had heard of a blimp:)

[martinnoweck]

There are some Camcorders out there, which would deserve a blimp as well ... ;-)

@ Paul: maybe I understood your question wrong - were you asking for a on-board-camera-mount microphone suggestion for the red one?

Does anybody know if there will be a mic mount for the red one?
Does anybody know if the audio inputs of the red one will be switchable between Line and Mic and provide 48V phantom power?

Martin

[PaulClements]

Onboard and off board Martin, you can stick it on the camera for run and gun, efp/eng etc or put it on a boom or it's own stand as a way of recording audio for drama etc. Just a general use Mic really.

[Martin Drew]

As far as I am aware there won't be a Red microphone mount. I reckon the Rycote multimount (http://www.rycote.com/products/softie/softie2.asp) will do a good job though. Should be far better than any standard on camera mount.

M

[Finner]

Some RED employee, I think Matt or Stuart told me at NAB there would be a mic mount.

[TimothyD]

That looks like a pretty nice mount, I take it that it is made of rubber and therefore is a shock mount? Nice simple design, no elastic bands to stretch out.

I think that may be the ticked for my Red rig. Thanks Martin...

Tim

[Martin Drew]

Some RED employee, I think Matt or Stuart told me at NAB there would be a mic mount.

Interesting Finner. Did you get the impression that was something imminent or it was just a future intention? A Red Mic mount would be nice.

M

[Elvar Guðmundsson]

If you have a professional sound guy, the MKH-416 is superb.
But with an MKH-60 you could use anyone of your friends and just tell them what to do to get exellent sound.

Because the MKH-60 has a wider pickup pattern, it's more forgiving.

So you just have to ask yourself: "How good is my sound guy?"

[planet e]

i'm spending a bunch of money on the best camera i can. so i want to upgrade the audio. i keep reading about schoeps mics but have no experience with them, and i don't know of any online shoot-outs that include the schoeps shotgun or the super-. is there such a thing? can anyone advise me on the stupidity vs. intelligence of investing in the so-called top of the line?

any tips on using these? would getting one of each of these be a smart investment? or sheer folly?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=377424&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=405353&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

[Finner]

Interesting Finner. Did you get the impression that was something imminent or it was just a future intention? A Red Mic mount would be nice.

M


NAB was so much it all becomes a bit of a blurr especially with all the free drink party's. I am pretty sure though that I ws told that a mic mount would be ready for the camera when it starts shipping.

[David Battistella]

Schoeps make outstanding microphones. I am not sure you would be getting teh best use of this microphone by attaching it to any camera. I think you should go for a mid range shotgun mic that will act as a good camera microphone. I use an Audio Technica for this purpose. It is a great sounding mic for an onboard microphone and it captures much better than "camera Mic" sound.

A schoeps is to a sound recordist what a RED is to a DOP. A very fine tool that should be used by someone who understands their craft.

David

[Mike the beginner]

Schoeps make outstanding microphones. I am not sure you would be getting teh best use of this microphone by attaching it to any camera. I think you should go for a mid range shotgun mic that will act as a good camera microphone. I use an Audio Technica for this purpose. It is a great sounding mic for an onboard microphone and it captures much better than "camera Mic" sound.

A schoeps is to a sound recordist what a RED is to a DOP. A very fine tool that should be used by someone who understands their craft.

David


Excellent points by both David and Elvar G.

With regard the schoeps i would add this, it is far more delicate than the industry standard MkH416, which is built like a tank. The scoeps is not advisable if working under humid or damp situations either or run and gun rough treatment, that is what i have read:wink:

I would suggest you jump over to DVXuser and go on the sound section. There is great advice from these sound guys like Oleg, wabbit, mattinSTL, yankee, mathew, timapter etc.

Here is just some of the stuff i have learned from the sound experts above.

Once you read and learn how it is done by the experts you will realise how most sound men record professionally. Putting a shotgun mic on to a camera mount in "most" situations is not the best way to get good clean sound unless you are 3ft from the subject! Putting an omni mic on the camera mount to record ambient sound is quite common though.

A cheap mount at 3ft from subject is better than an expensive one from 10ft away.

Sound is very important and i treat the knowledge these sound guys have with the greatest respect.

Mike the beginner

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Phantom power is a must. I once had to "borrow" a battery from a hotel tv remote because the shops were closed, I had no spare one and the Sennheisers accu was down.

Jochen

[David Battistella]

The Audio Technica has both Phantom and microphone power. If you remove the battery you can power it via phantom power. With the battery in place no phantom power is needed.

It's actually a handy feature. Any electret condenser microphone needs power to operate, be it phantom or battery.

[planet e]

wow, did i really sound that green? of course i know better than to mount a microphone to a camera. if i were to go with what i already know i'd probably pick the senny MKH60. i don't love the sound of the 416, it always sounds a little too crispy to me, i like a little warmer sound, and it has the issue of needing to be carefully directed to the sound source. the 60, i think, is a more forgiving microphone. mostly, i'ved used sennheiser microphone systems, and they are very reliable.

and, of course, as david suggests, there's a learning curve to any equipment upgrade. i'm looking forward to pushing my knowledge base and shooting skills with RED, so i'm not afraid of having to do the same with other complex instruments. the issue is that they are not available for demo-ing in my area, and there is not much info online about them. there's tons on senny, audio technica, rode, etc. lots of opinions, feedback, and audio files. the same can't be said about the schoeps, hence my inquiry.

i guess i should have asked more specific questions.

can the schoeps mics be used effectively in relatively fast conditions? is it too much microphone to use without a dedicated audio operator? say, for travel docs, for instance, where conditions can be very fast and set-ups require maximum efficiency....or are these mics really for studio environments primarily?

for the price, do they offer better sound than, say, the MKH60?

has anyone ever worked with the schoeps shotgun, and have any useful feedback or direct experiences to relate, good or bad? it's a relatively new product, so there is little information about it. there's just not a lot of user info out there.

[martinnoweck]

Hi planet e,

take a look at this link (a documentary about Pianist "Lang Lang") - they used a Schoeps CMIT5U shot gun in a very portable surround setup:

http://www.film-ton.com/Dragonsongs_english.pdf

Martin

[Bruce Allen]

That's right, Schoeps CMIT is very musical, with an off-axis response that is pretty neutral - not as colored as the 416. Much better for musical instruments, sound effects recording (although an argument can be made that a schoeps 41 hypercardiod plus their figure 8 is better for mid-side SFX recording than a shotgun plus fig 8 since that leaves a few more dead patches at weird angles).

I think the 416 is naturally louder, slightly noisier and definitely not as flat as the CMIT. It makes people's voices sound cool, but also kinda the same. This is good and bad. Believe it or not, the 416 is used by many voiceover artists - it's good for something that cuts through a loud mix without too much sweetening - think quick-turnaround commercial voiceovers, "big trailer voice" stuff, etc. but not good at capturing subtle individual tonalities, harmonies and nuances.

Personally I like the 416 because everything in my films is always no-budget and kinda dodgy :) there are so many weird and non-mainstream things going on already that it is kinda comforting to have my actors' voices that sound like they come from at least the same universe as Hollywood.

That said, Schoeps 41s for interiors are great.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[planet e]

thanks, you guys. exactly the kind of feedback i was interested in....i'm always interested in hearing about off-axis performance, since i usually work under fast conditions. maybe someday i'll actually make something in my studio, instead of renting it out to other people....all that planning and forethought does not so much suit my personality, it seems.

[Mike the beginner]

wow, did i really sound that green? of course i know better than to mount a microphone to a camera. if i were to go with what i already know i'd probably pick the senny MKH60. i don't love the sound of the 416, it always sounds a little too crispy to me, i like a little warmer sound, and it has the issue of needing to be carefully directed to the sound source. the 60, i think, is a more forgiving microphone. mostly, i'ved used sennheiser microphone systems, and they are very reliable.

and, of course, as david suggests, there's a learning curve to any equipment upgrade. i'm looking forward to pushing my knowledge base and shooting skills with RED, so i'm not afraid of having to do the same with other complex instruments. the issue is that they are not available for demo-ing in my area, and there is not much info online about them. there's tons on senny, audio technica, rode, etc. lots of opinions, feedback, and audio files. the same can't be said about the schoeps, hence my inquiry.

i guess i should have asked more specific questions.

can the schoeps mics be used effectively in relatively fast conditions? is it too much microphone to use without a dedicated audio operator? say, for travel docs, for instance, where conditions can be very fast and set-ups require maximum efficiency....or are these mics really for studio environments primarily?

for the price, do they offer better sound than, say, the MKH60?

has anyone ever worked with the schoeps shotgun, and have any useful feedback or direct experiences to relate, good or bad? it's a relatively new product, so there is little information about it. there's just not a lot of user info out there.

planet e i hope you did not think my post was directed at you! I am green and trying to learn as much etc. There are probably several others out there browsing this thread who are perhaps a little green as well. Like i said in my post there are guys who do nothing but record sound and DVXuser has comments from Oleg about the schoeps shotgun. Worth taking a look. Just trying to be helpful:innocent:

Mike the beginner

[GlennChan]

mostly, i'ved used sennheiser microphone systems, and they are very reliable.
Of microphones I've seen break, I've seen Apex (cheap knockoff mics) and the Sennheiser ME-66 break. With the ME-66, putting too much strain on the connector will do it (i.e. you put it on a boom, and always have the wire yanking on the XLR). If you treat your equipment decently, this probably won't happen.

2- From what I've seen, sound people all have their favorite microphones. Some people always use a particular mic... i.e. the Sanken CS-1, Schoeps MK41, Sennheiser 416, etc. I don't think any of those microphones have such a big edge over the others; you can get professional results with any one of them.

Keeping the big picture in mind, the most important things to do (in roughly the following order is):
A- Get the microphone as close as possible / close enough. If you are doing run and gun, you can't do much here other than to get a second handheld mic, wired or wireless (which will work if you're interviewing people). This is by far the #1 thing to do.
For narrative, if you can't get a boom mic close enough then go wireless lav too. Not shotgun mic will save you; shotguns only help with the problem distance a little bit.
B- Use the right type of microphone for the application / have a variety of microphones. Usually a boom mic does the best job in most situations, but in some situations some other kind of microphone is better.
C- Find locations that are good acoustically / move people into better sounding situations if you can. Equipment can't fix too much reverb or excessively high background noise.
For narrative work, turn off things that cause a lot of sound (AC, fridge [watch out for the food], check the talent's costume for noisemakers, etc.).

D- Have decent support gear like a good windscreen and microphone mount. The better ones will really help deal with handling noise and wind noise.
E- Point the mic decently at the talent, don't introduce handling noise into the mic, and *monitor your audio*.
F- If shooting indoors, you might want to use a non-shotgun mic since some shotguns (especially the lower quality ones) sound weird indoors.
G- If you need to use a shotgun, get a higher quality shotgun. i.e. an AT4073 versus a ME66. IMO, the ME-66 is noticeably inferior sounding to better microphones. With other types of microphones it's not a big difference, but with shotguns it is.
For wireless units, the better units do make a difference in reliability and quality if you have the money.

IMO, the other stuff is very very important. What mic(s) you pick in the end doesn't matter too much.

[Adrian T.]

turn off things that cause a lot of sound (AC, fridge [watch out for the food])

There's a simple trick which helps to remind you to turn the fridge on again after the shoot: put your car keys in! :red_bandana:

[chuck colburn]

I didn't read this whole thread so excuse me if it's been mentioned already.
When pointing the shotgun at the talent try to aim for a spot between the chest and the mouth. I've been told this gives a fuller sound than aiming right at the head.

[martinnoweck]

There's a simple trick which helps to remind you to turn the fridge on again after the shoot: put your car keys in! :red_bandana:

LOL + a good idea!!!

Martin

[TimothyD]

I didn't read this whole thread so excuse me if it's been mentioned already.
When pointing the shotgun at the talent try to aim for a spot between the chest and the mouth. I've been told this gives a fuller sound than aiming right at the head.

Good point, this also goes for placing a lav. Putting it right in between the chest and mouth fights plosives (from being too close to the mouth) but captures a nice resonant sound from the chest cavity. It is amazing the difference a few inches makes.

[Cam McGrath]

Sennheiser 416 all the way....I have owned mine for 16 years now and it has survived all sorts of environmental and 'not so environmental' (physical) abuse around the world. I have no hesitation in recommending it as the workhorse for location sound come rain hail or shine!

[Clint Johnson]

There's a simple trick which helps to remind you to turn the fridge on again after the shoot: put your car keys in! :red_bandana:

This doesn't work when the location is your own apartment (while I was looking for an apartment to rent for the shoot I was also location scouting). We shot three days there and then moved to the Vancouver City Police Museum. It was two days into that location before I had opportunity or reason to cook myself a meal.

Mid-summer heat wave.

Nasty.

[P Andersson]

a short introduction to the different mic options in a clip

http://homepage.mac.com/tyreeford/.Public/Video/Ty%20Ford%20Mic%20Tutorial%20VIdeo.mp4

[zak forrest]

I've had good results with Sennheiser over the years, but I've also used shotguns from other makers. I'll be looking for a good short shotgun, because many of the camera setups I use have lenses that are physically short, like the RED 18-50 and wide primes, I need to keep the mic out of the frame, and I need to be real mobile.

A 6" shotgun with excellent pattern and response will be my ambient audio ticket for mobile use.

When using a sound man and mixer, that's a whole different story...there's a lot of options there...

let us know what you decide on... im looking for a short shotgun to mount on my red as well, and i trust your opinion

[Leo Ticheli]

With regard the schoeps i would add this, it is far more delicate than the industry standard MkH416, which is built like a tank. The scoeps is not advisable if working under humid or damp situations either or run and gun rough treatment, that is what i have read:wink:

Mike the beginner

I can't say if the Schoeps is more or less rugged than any other microphone, but mine have been subjected to some bumps along the way and I've never had one fail.

I work primarily in the Southeast, quite a humid area, and I've never had a problem.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Steve Gibby]

let us know what you decide on... im looking for a short shotgun to mount on my red as well, and i trust your opinion

Hey Zak,

I'll do that...

I've been tubed with other work and I haven't been actively sorting out the mic situation. I have a Sennheiser 416 that would obviously work well with RED One, and I may use it with certain equipment setups. But I'm also looking for a short, compact, high-quality shotgun for good ambient audio with mobile setups that use compact wide angle lenses.

[zak forrest]

Hey Zak,

I'll do that...

I've been tubed with other work and I haven't been actively sorting out the mic situation. I have a Sennheiser 416 that would obviously work well with RED One, and I may use it with certain equipment setups. But I'm also looking for a short, compact, high-quality shotgun for good ambient audio with mobile setups that use compact wide angle lenses.

cool. yeah ive been thinkng of getting a 416 for a while, just to have, because its the greatest, etc. but yeah a shorter one... for those kinds of situations....

[OwenR]

yep thumbs up for the 416 here!!

[I Bloom]

I don't claim to know about sound. But I started working with a sound guy who uses Schoeps mics and I noticed a really dramatic improvement.

IBloom

[Bruce Allen]

I don't claim to know about sound. But I started working with a sound guy who uses Schoeps mics and I noticed a really dramatic improvement.

IBloom

1. Improvement over what? A guy with a 416?

2. Which mic? The MK41s (little black indoors ones) or the CMIT (the blue shotgun)?

The Schoepses are great. But maybe it's just because guys who are really into sound are often also the same ones who like Schoeps. And they're also likely to have good preamps, etc. And also to know what they're doing...

Tell us more, man.

Cheers

Bruce
www.boacinema.com

[Justin Anderson]

1. Improvement over what? A guy with a 416?

2. Which mic? The MK41s (little black indoors ones) or the CMIT (the blue shotgun)?

The Schoepses are great. But maybe it's just because guys who are really into sound are often also the same ones who like Schoeps. And they're also likely to have good preamps, etc. And also to know what they're doing...

Tell us more, man.

Cheers

Bruce
www.boacinema.com

I've heard a lot of good things about Schoeps mics. I believe they use them on "The Office" as their primary boom mics. I'd love to know how they compare to the 416.

[Bruce Allen]

I've heard a lot of good things about Schoeps mics. I believe they use them on "The Office" as their primary boom mics. I'd love to know how they compare to the 416.

Again, which Schoeps? MK41 or CMIT? The MK41 is a hypercardiod. Great for indoor dialogue, or as part of a MS combination for SFX recording, etc. Makes sense they use the MK41 in The Office because it's, well, set in an office (let's forget the fact that the whole set is I am sure designed for sound, so you could probably use a shotgun for it anyway...) Not to say you can't use the MK41 do outdoors, just it doesn't have as much reach.

The CMIT and Sehnnheiser 416es are shotguns. Often much better outdoors. I just went through the differences - Schoeps is more flat and natural. Off-axis is nice. This is your best choice if for some reason you are mic'ing a musical instrument or sound effect or something. Or want to get subtle voice tones. The 416 is more durable, louder, cheaper, not flat, and has a bassy, compressiony proximity effect that makes your talent sound like they are IN A MOVIE. But less subtlety - sometimes you want that. That's why Sennheiser still sells them, even though in theory the MKH60 is their better mic...

I have simultaneous recordings of them all on my hard drive somewhere. Will look later. But it's out on the Internet somewhere... Ty Ford?

By the way, take a look at the Sankens. Ty Ford didn't seem to like them too much, but others love them for in-the-field use. They are very interesting and versatile mics and have a way of cutting through noise in a room to pick out the speech in a very nice way. Not sure exactly how they do it. Underrated - for both interiors and exteriors.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Casey Green]

I see Finner referred to this earlier in the thread...

Any update on whether or not RED will be making their own Microphone Shoe Mount accessory? For people doing certain projects, such as EFP/ENG/Run'N'Gun work, this seems vital.

If I missed it on here, would someone point me to the thread?

And if it is in the works, a picture and description would be great.

thanks,

[Ty Ford]

Well, hello!

It's not that I didn't like them. I thought in reviewing them I did a pretty straight-up job. The reviews are in the On Line Arcive on my site.
(www.tyford.com)

Have a great weekend!

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Bruce Allen]

Well, hello!

It's not that I didn't like them. I thought in reviewing them I did a pretty straight-up job. The reviews are in the On Line Arcive on my site.
(www.tyford.com)

Have a great weekend!

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty!

Welcome to the forum! Your on-line review archive is a goldmine. It's great to have you here! You are the man! Post more, please!

When the Red comes out, someone needs to get you one as soon as possible so that you can tell us how good the built-in audio subsystem (DACs, preamps) is... I have been whining that they should include a digital input so you have the option to bypass them and record the signal from something like a Sound Devices 702T synchronized to picture to a single Quicktime in the camera - but everyone thinks I am crazy... Maybe I am? Anyway, you're the one we can trust for an answer to this. Sorry, getting OT. Just really glad to spot you on Reduser...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Ty Ford]

Some thoughts about production mics.

It's not a good idea to classify all mics made by one mfgr as better or worse. Audio Technica and Sennheiser specifically make mics across a wide enough spectrum to cover the buyers markets. A Sennheiser 66 is cheaper than a 416 and sounds cheaper. The 50, 60, 70 series are quieter. Some folks think they sound a bit -- what's the word they use? -- "clinical." That's pretty subjective. I think a lot of that has to do with the relatively fatter bottom and peaky top of the Sennheiser 416.

I've had new clients say, "Oh yes, we have a Sennheiser." only to find it was prosumer gear. Fortunately, I have my own gear. I have a Sennheiser 416 and an 816. I rarely use the 816.

There are still many Neumann shotguns in use, but they are getting pretty long in the tooth. Neumann has done a lot of good design work over the last decade. I think they should revisit the shotguns and update them, but because Sennheiser now owns Neumann, that probably won't happen. The Neumann RSM 191 is an amazing mic.

The Sankens CS-3e and CSS-5 are very nice. CS-3e is very tight and you need to have a good boom op. They are not as big on the bottom as the 416 and don't have the peaky top, so they sound more "natural."

The Audio-Technica 4xxx series mics are better than their 3xxx, 2xxx etc. In addition, their 835b and 835ST do well. They showed a new line with new numbers at NAB this year, but I don't see the mics on their site yet.

You may know that a shotgun mic isn't the ONLY mic you want on your boom. If you're shooting inside, or in a highly reflective outside area, you should try a hypercardioid mic.

The Schoeps cmc641 (which Schoeps calls a supercardioid) is THE tool. Their CMIT shotgun is also quite nice and matches very nicely with the cmc641. I've used the cmc641 at surprising distances outside. We were run and gunning on Capitol Hill a few weeks back. I didin't know we'd be going outside, so I left the wind gear and 416 w/rycote behind so I wouldn't have to lug them around all day.

Surprise! We need to shoot on the SE corner of the Capitol Steps! Mild to moderate wind. I had the cmc641 and B5D pop filter. I usually pull a Rode Dead Cat furry over the B5D rather than a Baby Ball Gag because it's cheaper, lighter and fits in my pocket, but (again) I didn't expect to go outside at all. (No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!)

The shots were all close to ECU, so I sidled up as close to the congressman as I could, blocked the wind with my chest and cranked up the mixer. NEAT! I was very (happily) surprised by the reach of the cmc641. The mic was about 4 feet away from the congressman and got every word he said. Because we were outside (with the cement being the only reflective surface) there was little if any reflected sound, so I cold be that far away. I did have to keep people from stepping between me and the congressman, but I'm 6' 2" and 210 lbs, with a Sound Devices 442 and wireless bag strapped to my chest via a Portabrace shoulder harness and a boom in my hands, I usually don't have a problem getting the space I need. :)

Anyway......

The cmc641 is the gold standard. You don't see a movie set without them. Below that (in order) are the AT4053a from Audio Technica, the Audix SCX-1 and Oktava MC012 with hyper capsule.

It's Saturday morning. I really didn't expect to go on like this. Blame it on the coffee. :)

I shot a simple video as a companion to my location audio book explaining mic choices and stuck it up in my online archive. It's called Ty For Mic Tutorial Video.mp4. I can't link you to it directly but if you go to my my website (www.tyford.com) and then to my On Line Archive, you'll find it in the Video folder.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

Ty!

Welcome to the forum! Your on-line review archive is a goldmine. It's great to have you here! You are the man! Post more, please!

When the Red comes out, someone needs to get you one as soon as possible so that you can tell us how good the built-in audio subsystem (DACs, preamps) is... I have been whining that they should include a digital input so you have the option to bypass them and record the signal from something like a Sound Devices 702T synchronized to picture to a single Quicktime in the camera - but everyone thinks I am crazy... Maybe I am? Anyway, you're the one we can trust for an answer to this. Sorry, getting OT. Just really glad to spot you on Reduser...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com


Hello Bruce and thanks for the flowers!

I would enjoy the opportunity to check out the Red audio. If anyone knows how to get me one here in Baltimore, please let me know.

Camera audio is usually low on the budget. When I first started sending audio to Sony Betacam SP and Digibeta cameras I almost had a heart attack. What was this crap coming back from the camera to my mixer!!?? How can I tell if it's good or bad?

I talked to the Sony camera guys at NAB on several occasions about the quality of the headphone output. They listened very politely but sort of shrugged their shoulders. Some soundies have been using the 5-pin XLR audio out on the Digibeta. Some say it's better than the headphone out. I haven't checked it.

If anyone at RED is interested, here are my thoughts on camera audio.

1a. Really good mic preamps are not that tough or expensive to design. If you can't do it yourself, hire George Massenburg to design one for you. He's got the street cred to sell a lot of cameras for you. He's in Nashville a lot these days. If you can't find him, let me know.

1b. Make the line input separate so that it bypasses the mic preamp. (Let George do that.)

2a. DO include a pad, phantom power. Don't bury the audio parameters in the menus (as the Sony ZU1 does).

2b. DO put some decent scales up for the audio metering. These will be rms/peak meters, showing both simultaneously as the Sound Devices 442 display does. Use real numbers and change colors. I'd love to know where -60 is. I HAVE to know where -20 is. I also want to know where -12, -10, -6, and -3 are. Make everything between the lowest point and -12 dB green, between -11 and -6 yellow and -5 and above red. Put the display somewhere I can see it during the shoot and illuminate it (as an option) so I can see it if I'm on a darkened set.

3a. Engineer in enough gain in the headphone amp so we can actually hear what's going on.

3b. Find a place for the headphone circuitry that doesn't pickup a lot of electronic noise. Put the headphone jack where you can easily plug in without breaking the camera return/headphone plug or jack.

4. If you DO decide to put AGC in, make it defeatable.

5. Feeling brave? Here's a tough one; confidence recording without much latency. It's a huge challenge (and headache) to mix properly with 40 mSec of delay.

6. Blow my skirt up, record at 24-bit, 48 kHz as a minimum. Anything over 24/96 is pretty much a waste, AFAIC. Have a 5.1 surround option.

7. If the camera will be file based rather than tape based, consider a 4 channel input that creates timecode stamped poly-wav files.

8. Digital input? Hmm, Well that would let you feed from the new-ish Sony field mixer (I think I saw another location mixer with digital out at NAB this year. Don't remember the make. Cantar?) Certainly a workable thing for studio shoots with house consoles have digital outs. BUT!! Can you get by with just AES/EBU or do you need word clock as well? I don't know the answer to that question at the moment.

Thanks for the opportunity.

See you on the set.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Steve Gibby]

Welcome to RED User Ty

Those are some excellent observations...

[Bruce Allen]

Ty delivers. As usual.

Thank you so much.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Robert Mott]

Ty, I found your online forum very useful.

[Ty Ford]

Thank you, Gibby, rmott and all

It would be great if a camera was produced that really DID have righteous audio. It'd be very cool to be a part of that.

BTW, Bette and I are headed for San Francisco this August to hang out for a week in Berkeley and see if we can figure out how to pull a move from Baltimore to the SF area. Easy for Bette, she's an oncology lab tech at Johns Hopkins Hospital. I'm just another audio nomad who's been in one place for a long time. I'll be looking to plug into the SF location and studio audio/singer-songwriter/VO talent channels.

If anything comes to mind, let me know.

Regards,

Ty

We'll be looking to see if it's feasible to make it work. We liked Oceannside, but it was too far away from everything...even Lake Forest. :)

[Ty Ford]

The cmc641 is a wonderfully flat mic that pulls midrange detail out of dialog better than any other I've heard. The 416 is s great mic, but sounds "processed" or "aggressive" by comparison. It's also a bit funky to off-axis sounds and sholdn't be used in normal interiors (sound stages are NOT normal) or outside in highly reflective environments.

The CMIT from Schoeps is a shotgun that sounds VERY much like the cmc641, but with reach. Both fall off very nicely at the pattern edges without weird anomalies.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

Good point, this also goes for placing a lav. Putting it right in between the chest and mouth fights plosives (from being too close to the mouth) but captures a nice resonant sound from the chest cavity. It is amazing the difference a few inches makes.
Yes and a lot depends on the talent. Some have no chest tone, others do.

Regards,

Ty

[Ty Ford]

can the schoeps mics be used effectively in relatively fast conditions? is it too much microphone to use without a dedicated audio operator? say, for travel docs, for instance, where conditions can be very fast and set-ups require maximum efficiency....or are these mics really for studio environments primarily?

for the price, do they offer better sound than, say, the MKH60?
has anyone ever worked with the schoeps shotgun, and have any useful feedback or direct experiences to relate, good or bad? it's a relatively new product, so there is little information about it. there's just not a lot of user info out there.

Yes, I have worked with the CMIT.. Sounds like a cmc641 with reach. Has a HF lift for use heavy wind protection devices. See my review in the On Line Archive at www.tyford.com.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

[QUOTE=planet e;39146]i'm spending a bunch of money on the best camera i can. so i want to upgrade the audio. i keep reading about schoeps mics but have no experience with them, and i don't know of any online shoot-outs that include the schoeps shotgun or the super-. is there such a thing? can anyone advise me on the stupidity vs. intelligence of investing in the so-called top of the line?


I have have some samples in the Audio folder in my On Line Archive.

I own 2 Schoeps cmc641. The only reason I haven't bought a CMIT is because I wanted a Sound Devices 744T and some lighting gear.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

I've also heard some good reviews of "Sanken". Investigate the CS-1 short shotgun microphone. The CSS-5 is also used a lot for recording sound effects.

If you like the CS-1, get the CS-3e. That's the one.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[John Wee]

Ty,
I heard the Schoeps cmc6/41 cant be used in humid condition at all? Makes me wonder, is this a northern country only Mic ?

[Ty Ford]

Ty,
I heard the Schoeps cmc6/41 cant be used in humid condition at all? Makes me wonder, is this a northern country only Mic ?

Hello Mr. Metal,

If this was a serious problem, you wouldn't see Schoeps on so many soundcarts.

I'm in Baltimore and work here and in DC. Anyone familiar with the area knows that July and August are filled with 95 degree 99 percent humidity days.

I own two cmc641. I have used them in the humid mid atlantic summer (outside) with no problem. I have used them outside in a misty rain, no problem.

Here's the thing. The connection between the capsule and body, over time, can build up schmutz. That schmutz, over time, when in a humid or wet environment can absorb moisture building up a schmutsy resistance. When that happens, the mic will sputter.

The last time it happened to me, I was inside in an airconditioned set. No humidity problem there. That was three years ago.

Sometimes simply unscrewing and rescrewing the capsule a bit will rub the contacts enough to solve the problem. Storing the mic with the capsule attached to the body keeps the surfaces from being open to collecting schmutz.

Cleaning can be done with a toothpick, alcohol and some thin cloth.

Put some alcohol on the cloth.

Holding the mic contact points so they point DOWN (so any excess alcohol drops away from the mic parts), you can then CAREFULLY use the toothpick push the cloth GENTLY up into the circular contact grooves to swab the surfaces.

DO NOT LET EXCESS ALCOHOL DRIP INTO THE CAPSULE OR BODY.

I am NOT responsible for damage to any gear as a result of your effort. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

[John Wee]

Thank you TY !!!

[mdo]

I'm in Baltimore and work here and in DC. Anyone familiar with the area knows that July and August are filled with 95 degree 99 percent humidity days.

DC was built on a swamp. "Foggy Bottom", the nickname of the State Department, is the name of a swamp.

[Michele Gavazzeni]

Hi Ty
do you use any kind of compressor limiter while recording on field or you apply only on post?
thanks
Michele

[Ty Ford]

Hello Michele,

I use a Sound Devices 442 mixer. It has very nice limiters on each input and on the outputs. They are designed to work smoothly to keep the peaks from overdriving.

They give me confidence that I can record at higher levels without going into the red. Higher average levels means the audio is further above the noise floor.

I'll usually compress and limit a little just to increase the overall loudness during the mix.

Regards,

Ty

[Jack Wester]

They give me confidence that I can record at higher levels without going into the red. Higher average levels means the audio is further above the noise floor.


Whats your opinion on using the Sound Devices recorder without a mixer. Would the limiters and the preamplification be of less quality? Would you be able to increase average levels without raising the noise floor using the 7 series?

How much of the noise floor in general comes from the self noise of the mic (lets say a mk41)? I mean how much does it help to raise the levels on a Sound Devices mixer?

[Jack Wester]

Whats your opinion on using the Sound Devices recorder without a mixer. Would the limiters and the preamplification be of less quality? Would you be able to increase average levels without raising the noise floor using the 7 series?

Sorry for any :gun: hijacking.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Ty Ford is the expert on this thread but I can say that I've used the 7 series recorder for ages and I think it's great. It is a recorder and a mixer; although you only get two mic level inputs. Sound Devices say they use the same preamps on the 7 series as they do on their 442 mixer.
I actually wrote to them to ask that they put two more mic level inputs in there and put the price up; of course they replied saying they'd think about it but no luck yet..
RED really is a revolutionary company.., setting up this forum so we can all give our suggestions and then actively listening and responding :weight_lift:

[Jack Wester]

I actually wrote to them to ask that they put two more mic level inputs in there and put the price up; of course they replied saying they'd think about it but no luck yet..

So their recorder has amplifiers as good as those in their mixers. You'd be paying a lot of money for easier to access physical level controls if you buy the mixer. Sticking to a standalone 702T (or maybe a 744) and no mixer would be good for most Indie RedOne users, right?

From reading other forums, it's clear that Ty knows what he's talking about. What is your thought on this?

[Ty Ford]

Whats your opinion on using the Sound Devices recorder without a mixer. Would the limiters and the preamplification be of less quality? Would you be able to increase average levels without raising the noise floor using the 7 series?

How much of the noise floor in general comes from the self noise of the mic (lets say a mk41)? I mean how much does it help to raise the levels on a Sound Devices mixer?

Well the recorder has good input limiters, but since it doesn't "output" before the recording process, I guess it doesn't reallyrequire them. I'd reach out to Sound Devices tech support and ask that question. They're very helpful.

The MK41 is well above the sound floor.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Shawn Nelson]

Ty, I'm budgeting to get a Schoeps mk41 sometime in the next 6 months. I've heard that it's also helpful to have an mkh40 for the broader carioid pattern. What are your thoughts on this? Or does purchasing a mk41 put an mkh40 out of commission?

Right now I use a CK93 and mkh60 for my various needs.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

hi shawn

I've had a 41 and an 8 in an M/S config for a couple of years and it is a beautiful mic combo; I think it sounds like I've stretched my neck right out and put my head in the rycote basket. I use the 41 for interior sound when it's quiet and I can get the thing reasonably close, it has better reach than the 4 obviously so it was a compromise choice, (the 4&8 combo is the ideal stereo setup), but I record live classical music with the 41/8 all the time and it sounds great; so my point is that I haven't "heard" the 41's supercardoid pattern , even recording music. Because it is a great microphone it hears everything though, and I've had difficulties when I've asked the doco director to hold the boom, because of the handling noise etc. I'm saving up for the Schoeps Shotgun to compliment the 41.

[Ty Ford]

Ty, I'm budgeting to get a Schoeps mk41 sometime in the next 6 months. I've heard that it's also helpful to have an mkh40 for the broader carioid pattern. What are your thoughts on this? Or does purchasing a mk41 put an mkh40 out of commission?

Right now I use a CK93 and mkh60 for my various needs.

Hello Shawn,

I'm not a big fan of wider patterns, but if you're headed for a cmc641, consider that you might get the mk4 capsule later if you need it. You can screw that onto the same Schoeps body and maintaint the Schoeps sound.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[SamKam]

Thought I saw that the RED has only mini-xlr jacks. Have never used these. Any idea why they used that size? Does it impact audio quality?



www.gencofilms.com

[Ty Ford]

No.

Regards,

Ty

[Mark B.]

Do any of you have opinions/experience with either of the Audio-Technica mics that go by the designations AT4071a, AT815ST? What's the audio quality from these? How well do they handle environmental extremes?

The AT815ST is a stereo shotgun... how is that possible if the microphone only has a single xlr output? Or does it have two xlr males or something weird like that? Is the stereo function really noticeable or is it more worthwhile to purchase a mono mic?

[paul engstrom]

"Thought I saw that the RED has only mini-xlr jacks. Have never used these. Any idea why they used that size? Does it impact audio quality? "

i remember reading that this was purely because of size considerations on the camera body--they're trying to keep the camera as compact/light as possible.

p

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Do any of you have opinions/experience with either of the Audio-Technica mics that go by the designations AT4071a, AT815ST? What's the audio quality from these? How well do they handle environmental extremes?

The AT815ST is a stereo shotgun... how is that possible if the microphone only has a single xlr output? Or does it have two xlr males or something weird like that? Is the stereo function really noticeable or is it more worthwhile to purchase a mono mic?

Mono is 3 pin xlr, stereo is five pin. Stereo is great. You want to use M/S. Stereo picks everything up in the room, so if you are recording all that sound then great, but if you want to focus in on what someone is saying then not so great..

[Mark B.]

Do stereo shotguns have a switch to capture mono sound? Is that the m/s setting?

For mono shotguns, do any of you have opinions on the akg ck69?

[zak forrest]

I currently own a Sennheiser 416 that I plan on mounting on top of my Red. I'm looking for something shorter, but similar. I don't want to get too detailed in the specifics of the subtle differences in sound quality, I just want to get something a bit shorter than the Sennheiser 416 that will kick some serious ass and work great on a feature film like I know my 416 does.

Trying to slim down my Red in every possible area.

Any suggestions?

[Shawn Nelson]

I currently own a Sennheiser 416 that I plan on mounting on top of my Red. I'm looking for something shorter, but similar. I don't want to get too detailed in the specifics of the subtle differences in sound quality, I just want to get something a bit shorter than the Sennheiser 416 that will kick some serious ass and work great on a feature film like I know my 416 does.

Trying to slim down my Red in every possible area.

Any suggestions?

Well for feature film work the only purpose of a camera-mounted mic would be either ambient sound (such as scenic vista pans) or purely as a scratch track to later sync with the real audio tracks. You won't really get good dialogue from any on-cam mic.

For simple ambient sounds, I'd get something like the mkh40/50 or the AKG se300b/CK93, maybe even just stick with your 416, though that it very directional.

[zak forrest]

Well for feature film work the only purpose of a camera-mounted mic would be either ambient sound (such as scenic vista pans) or purely as a scratch track to later sync with the real audio tracks. You won't really get good dialogue from any on-cam mic.

For simple ambient sounds, I'd get something like the mkh40/50 or the AKG se300b/CK93, maybe even just stick with your 416, though that it very directional.

hey shawn thanks for your response.

did you recommend the mkh40/mkh50 because they are a couple inches shorter than the 416? or because of their pickup pattern characteristics?

for the film im making im using both wireless lavs and the 416. its semi-documentary and i'm happy with the results so far (when only using the 416 in certain situations..)

[Shawn Nelson]

hey shawn thanks for your response.

did you recommend the mkh40/mkh50 because they are a couple inches shorter than the 416? or because of their pickup pattern characteristics?

for the film im making im using both wireless lavs and the 416. its semi-documentary and i'm happy with the results so far (when only using the 416 in certain situations..)

Both. I own the mkh50 and the mkh60 and the 50 is very short, it's about the size of a big cigar and has a nice ambient pickup. It doesn't reach far (like a shotgun) but I'd probably use it on my Red for nature shots and what not. Although, if you are shooting something like the beach or a waterfall or something, a shotgun would make more sense.

[Damien Molineaux]

Well for feature film work the only purpose of a camera-mounted mic would be either ambient sound (such as scenic vista pans) or purely as a scratch track to later sync with the real audio tracks. You won't really get good dialogue from any on-cam mic.

For simple ambient sounds, I'd get something like the mkh40/50 or the AKG se300b/CK93, maybe even just stick with your 416, though that it very directional.

I've been looking into what mic(s) to use on my Red. Since we have four channels, I'm thinking about getting two mics, or a stereo mic, for ambient sound. There are a lot of options out there.

In the middle range, around $400-$500 you have the Rode NT4 and NT5. The NT4 is sweet it is a two mic in one deal. Easy to attach and handle, but fixed angle of recording (not very good if you subject(s) are very close to the camera. The NT5 is a more classic stereo recording approach with two identical mics and system to attach them, you can then adjust the angle of each one. In this category there are many other options, such as the Fostex MC-10 ST Stereo Mic Set, quite cheap >$200 for two mics (black and red) with a small dampening attachment system, or what is considered the best stuff out there, Neumann KM184, around $2000 a pair.

I haven't made my mind up yet, but I can't afford the Neumannn right now. The Fostex looks (sounds) pretty good, but I'm still looking up on them.

I'm also waiting to hear a little more about the recording specs of the Red one.

Cheers,
Damien

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Sanken make a nice little on-camera stereo mic: light, simple, strong and with a good reach in the centre

For music you want Schoeps. M/S: a 4 and an 8 or a 41 and an 8. The 41/8 combo is good because the 41 is also a fantastic dialogue mic for indoor work, but the 4 is slightly better acoustically.

The problem with feeding the mics directly to RED is that you don't have decent control of the levels on camera; not an issue for some..:innocent: :biggrin:

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

one of the issues with mic selection for mounting on RED is how much noise the camera, (or the SLR lenses) will make.. If there is noise pollution then we'll want a longer shotgun with a narrower pattern, and stereo will be a complete dead loss.

...If...


Has anyone actually been able to test it yet?

[barnstormerfilms]

While not mounted on the camera I did sound a film with OffHollywood's Reds....the fan noise...even when in "quiet mode" is still loud. I was using an MKH60 in places I would have preferred to use the CMIT5U. Personally I don't like the rode mics...I have the Schoeps and all Sennheisers. Lavs are Pin-Mics and Countryman B6s.

~Marque DeWinter
Barnstormer Films

[philper]

Another shotgun to consider is the Sanken CS3e. I've found it just as directional as my Neumann KMR82 in a MUCH smaller and much lighter package. Unique among directional mics it has no rear sensitivity lobe to speak of, and doesn't pick up a lot of proximity bass boost if used close. Not cheap, but my current fave. It is small enough that it might work as a camera mount, given the right hardware.

Philip Perkins CAS

[David Birdy]

"Thought I saw that the RED has only mini-xlr jacks. Have never used these. Any idea why they used that size? Does it impact audio quality? "

i remember reading that this was purely because of size considerations on the camera body--they're trying to keep the camera as compact/light as possible.

p

I like the Sennhieser 416 or the 816 in Phantom 48v..Thanks for that Phantom feature Jim & RED Team!

The camera connectors are shown in the manual posted on the RED web site and are 4 MINI XLR Females & 1- 5 Pin Female mini XLR & 1-5 Pin Lemo for TC in.

I will offer a Mult cable for Audio and video to match standard XLR's and Coax BNC ends. This mult will simplify connections and protect the camera connectors by strain relief anchors.

PM or E-mail me for details.

Dave

[Alexis Hanawalt]

Is Ty Ford going to come back? He had some great things to say in August - now that sound is up and running, would be curious what he makes of all this.

(Philper, you're awesome too.)

As a guy with a terrible ear for sound, I'm leaning pretty hard on all the knowledge the experts can toss my way.

[Steve Gibby]

For run and gun ambient audio directly to my RED cameras I just took delivery of a Sennheiser ME66/K6 shotgun kit from B&H ($479).

The ME66/K6 kit includes:
Sennheiser ME66 short shotgun
Sennheiser K6 powering module
AA batteries
Windtech SG-1 Windscreen
RODE adjustable shockmount F/shoemount
Audio Technica XLR/M to XLR/F cable

I'll out-mount the shotgun on a single piece of the RED Cage, mounted on the right front corner of the camera body. The K6 powering module I got has the ability to power the mic from phantom power or AA batteries with the flip of a small switch. Reviews I read of the ME66 were very favorable for an affordable, small, phantom powered, on-camera shotgun mic. Length of the assembled mic (about 12") seems to be just about right to get it out past lens/camera noise to pickup clean ambient audio.

Sometime soon, when I get a chance, I'll use the ME66 in some mobile run and gun shooting scenarios and post here my impressions of its performance.

[David Birdy]

For run and gun ambient audio directly to my RED cameras I just took delivery of a Sennheiser ME66/K6 shotgun kit from B&H ($479).

The ME66/K6 kit includes:
Sennheiser ME66 short shotgun
Sennheiser K6 powering module
AA batteries
Windtech SG-1 Windscreen
RODE adjustable shockmount F/shoemount
Audio Technica XLR/M to XLR/F cable

I'll out-mount the shotgun on a single piece of the RED Cage, mounted on the right front corner of the camera body. The K6 powering module I got has the ability to power the mic from phantom power or AA batteries with the flip of a small switch. Reviews I read of the ME66 were very favorable for an affordable, small, phantom powered, on-camera shotgun mic. Length of the assembled mic (about 12") seems to be just about right to get it out past lens/camera noise to pickup clean ambient audio.

Sometime soon, when I get a chance, I'll use the ME66 in some mobile run and gun shooting scenarios and post here my impressions of its performance.


Thanks a Nice selection. The RED should put +48 Phantom power to ME66..?

[Steve Gibby]

The RED should put +48 Phantom power to ME66..?

Yes, RED One does have +48 phantom power, thus I can use the ME66 with either phantom power or AA battery power. If using it with batteries, I'd expect that phantom power to the bus the will need to turned off in menus.

[Cail Young]

Sometime soon, when I get a chance, I'll use the ME66 in some mobile run and gun shooting scenarios and post here my impressions of its performance.

I've swung it on some narrative shoots, it's a nice sound and pattern. Have you worked out how to get that RODE mount on to the body?

[Steve Gibby]

I've swung it on some narrative shoots, it's a nice sound and pattern. Have you worked out how to get that RODE mount on to the body?

The Rode shock mount is model SM3. It has a 3-way mounting system with 1/4" x 20 and 3/8" x 16 internal threads for boom pole or tripod mounting and a standard hot shoe adaptor for direct camera mounting. RED One obviously doesn't have a hot shoe, but I'm thinking the 1/4" or 3/8" thread will allow me to attach it to one of the holes near the top of the RED Cage piece as I mentioned in my previous post. I may need a small adaptor/downconverter to do that - we'll see. When I get it configured on the camera I'll shoot some pics of it and post them here.

[philper]

You folks with Red cameras and mics mounted on top--how much of the camera noise are your mics hearing? Is the audio you are getting as clean as that you got doing the same sort of mount w/ other cams?

Has anyone measured the phantom voltage from the Red camera? Is it a true 48v DC or less?

Philip Perkins CAS

[Alexis Hanawalt]

I just got the Audio Technica AT825 Stereo Mic on eBay for $250 - it's going to live on my camera setup. With 4 channels, it's great to just have one of these rolling on 2 channels at all times... They're only $350 at bargain retailers.

This is my first RED-related purchase!

[Steve Gibby]

You folks with Red cameras and mics mounted on top--how much of the camera noise are your mics hearing? Is the audio you are getting as clean as that you got doing the same sort of mount w/ other cams?

Has anyone measured the phantom voltage from the Red camera? Is it a true 48v DC or less?

Philip Perkins CAS

My RED cameras are being upgraded to the X upgrade, so I haven't mounted a shotgun on them yet. The length of the on-camera shotgun I'll be using, the directional pickup pattern of the mic, and the placement of the shock mount on the right front RED Cage piece, is intended to exclude any camera or lens use noise from the mic pickup pattern. This is not a top mount of the mic, but rather a right front side mount of the mic. That's the plan. When I get my cameras back, rig the mic setup, and test it out, I'll post my impressions of the results here.

I would guess that RED has measured the phantom voltage from the cameras.

[philper]

My RED cameras are being upgraded to the X upgrade, so I haven't mounted a shotgun on them yet. The length of the on-camera shotgun I'll be using, the directional pickup pattern of the mic, and the placement of the shock mount on the right front RED Cage piece, is intended to exclude any camera or lens use noise from the mic pickup pattern. This is not a top mount of the mic, but rather a right front side mount of the mic. That's the plan. When I get my cameras back, rig the mic setup, and test it out, I'll post my impressions of the results here.

I would guess that RED has measured the phantom voltage from the cameras.

I'm sure they have, but no one has said what it is. Many devices that say they make phantom power don't actually make a whole 48v DC of power, and I'm curious if the Red does. Is your mic mount a Red thing or something you made?

Philip Perkins CAS

[Steve Gibby]

Is your mic mount a Red thing or something you made?

Philip Perkins CAS

Sennheiser ME66/K6 Short Shotgun Kit on B&H web site:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423592-REG/Sennheiser__ME66_K6_Super_Cardioid_Short.html

Some specific kit component web sites:

Rode SM3 shock mount:
http://www.rodemic.com/?pagename=Products&product=SM3

Sennheiser ME66/K6 Shotgun Mic:
http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/productdetail.asp?transid=003284

The Rode shock mount will be mounted at the top hole in a RED side handle mounted on the front right side of the camera, so the shotgun will extend above and to the right of the lens.

RED Side Handle:
http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/56

[Alexis Hanawalt]

NEW BIG SUPERHUGE MIC ARTICLE!

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

[Marcus Lundahl]

Thanks Alexis for the great article link!

/Marcus

[Scott Mason]

Yes, nice review there. Mahalo.

[Andrew M.]

Transfer from the other thread, since it should be here.


I didn't combine 4 channels in to the pairs, but QT lets you assign the channels to almost anything.
RED will record 4 channels.

The problem I have now is processing of the Mid-Side (M/S) type of signal from MKH 418 (M/S) mike.

Most good microphones record in this format and the software I use Soundbooth doesn't have this ability.
I downloaded brainworkx plug-in and it kind of works but something is wrong.
http://www.brainworx-music.de/
Same thing with
http://www.kellyindustries.com/
plug in.

I do not get proper stereo image out of these process. It should do (M+S) for left channel and( M-S) for the right channel . Looks like these plug- ins are able to produce only (M+S)+M and (M-S)+M .
Adobe Audition has ability to analyze all these, but I can't download the trial version and I am not about to spend $300+ just to buy it and maybe I will never use it again.

BTW guys, if anybody has hiss using phantom power, just use M/S mike and do (M-S )and all noise will be cancelled to zero.
Optionally just invert one channel in post and feed mike signal inverted during recording to the other channel.
This trick cancels the noise completely and anything that is in this channel unless it is inverted.

Anybody was able to get Mid-Side type of recording out of the RED?
or someone could point me to the trial link of Adobe Audition, please.

[Philippe Vandendriessche]

Transfer from the other thread, since it should be here.

BTW guys, if anybody has hiss using phantom power, just use M/S mike and do (M-S )and all noise will be cancelled to zero.
Optionally just invert one channel in post and feed mike signal inverted during recording to the other channel.
This trick cancels the noise completely and anything that is in this channel unless it is inverted.


Andrew,
did you really tried the "tricks" you describe?

The noise of an unloaded microphone preamplifier is not the same as the noise of a preamp with a microphone connected. If you connect a 200 ohms impedance microphone on microphone input, to have an idea of the noise of the preamp, just put a 200 ohm resistor between pins 2&3 of the XLR and listen.

About your plugins, why not asking your questions direct to the plugins designers?

[Andrew M.]

Yes, I did try few more things.
First the noise(hiss) is not random, at least not on ch1 and ch2 I tested.
It looks like it is interference from the phantom power voltage converter and it is identical in phase and amplitude on both channels.
Taking ch1 and ch2 via one of the above plug-ins and combining it with the Right ch (ch2) inverted, cancels the hiss. I have noticed it when I was extracting right channel from the M-S mike.
To get right channel on this mikes you add ch1 and ch2 with second channel inverted.
Left channel you get by straight adding of ch1 and ch2.
Well finally I got all right and Mid-Side mike is working properly now.
I went further and recorded to all 4 channels.
QT lets you save each channel as a discreet ch 1, ch2, ch3 and ch4 or you can map it to Quadraphonic or to surround 4.0 and up or you can output any of two channels on L and any on R in Stereo mode.
Then you extract what you mapped, check it by playing it in QT (sound only) and then you export it in File->Export to whatever you have choices there including surround or Quadraphonic or plain Stereo or Mono.

To edit such .mov file you have to have surround audio card if you use Adobie Soundbooth. I think Audition will let you edit this files even if you have two channel sound card, didn't check it though.

You can fix the phantom power hiss by adding ch1 and ch2 (ch2 inverted).
To connect normal mike in such a way you have to connect one mono mike (balanced) via Y cable to both channels. Don't forget to invert ch2 cable from the mike (+ -) to (-+) on the balanced mikes only. If you have unbalanced mike then forget this trick.
If you do not invert the mike signal, then when you combine ch1 and ch2 inverted you cancel the hiss and the signal from the mike, thus getting pure silence.
Remember to use RED supplied cable with resistors inside, 200K across and 600 ohm in series!!

[Eddy Robinson]

Yo, Ty. I didn't get around to answering your last email. My feeling is that if you're looking for film sound work in the Bay area, Skywalker (in Marin) is the obvious first place to send your resume, and then the other ones to hit are the various animation studios.

I've frankly had a really terrible time in the last year from a production audio standpoint; there just isn't that much going on, and a lot of out-of-town productions that are visiting tend to bring the sound person with them. I'm dithering between moving down to LA (which would have a lot of up-front expenses and mess with my domestic relationship) or ditching a lot of my sound gear and reinventing myself as a director/shooter.

I'm not good enough to be a DP but I have so much informal and 'rescue' directing experience by now that people keep saying I should step up, and I'm comfortable with my own shooting/lighting skills for small-bore projects. So I'm seriously thinking about saving up for a Scarlet as I'm likely to regain the money invested a lot faster than I am with my audio gear :-/

Anyway, enough about that...shoot me an email if you like.


The CMIT from Schoeps is a shotgun that sounds VERY much like the cmc641, but with reach. Both fall off very nicely at the pattern edges without weird anomalies.


I have the CMIT and use it all the time for everything nowadays. At first I rented the CMC641 to supplement it but I've found it only makes a practical difference in really reflective small rooms (eg a tiled bathroom), problems which can often be defeated by putting up a sound blanket or a small acoustic foam gobo. With the bass filter switched on it's almost impossible to tell the difference.

Not only that, but I've almost completely stopped using the Sennheiser 816. The last few times that I did use it I disliked the coloration so much that it ended up just providing a guide track. Easier to just put on a radio mic and blend with the Schoeps, delaying the radio signal until it matches with the boom.

[Eddy Robinson]

As a guy with a terrible ear for sound, I'm leaning pretty hard on all the knowledge the experts can toss my way.

Hire one of us. We need the money :waaa:

Seriously, it's actually difficult to compete with camera people who have their own sound gear - a lot of indie producers think 'sound is sound' and they always pay more for the camera and lighting than they planned, so when they call to hire sound person/gear the budget is already under strain. Same thing happens in post, the sound department eats the cost overruns for the editing/VFX :mail1: