Is the RED One ever going to be upgraded to the Monstro chip?

[Stephen Pruitt]

I just read something that surprised me. Someone stated that they were under the impression that there will be an upgrade path on the RED One from the Mysterium, to the Mysterium-X, and THEN to the Monstro chip.

I was aware of the first upgrade, but not the second.

Is this really true? Will the RED One get a Monstro?

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I think if that had been possible, there would have been no need for Epic.

Stephen

[Raul Gonzo]

Space inside the RED may limit what can go in there, but
eventually I think RED will continue to put better and better sensors in there that in time will compare to today's (or soon to come) MONSTRO.

[Jason Bognacki]

I believe so.

You have an upgrade path to Mysterium-X 1st. Then to Monstro. Or you can wait for the Monstro upgrade. Or you can trade in for EPIC. Or you can keep your RED ONE, get a 12% discount on a Scarlet system, then upgrade your RED ONE. AND... you are at the front of the line.

Some of you must not really get what we are doing here...

Are you asking for free upgrades forever? If we would have ONLY announced a sensor upgrade for $6K, would you have been happy?

We promised that the RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. The sensor is the primary upgrade. We have already upgraded (for free) many options along the way... including anamorphic support in Build 18 today.

What is it exactly that you want?

Jim

[Brent@RED]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15858&post#6

BC

[Jason Ing]

I think the question is: Will a Monstro sensor be going in a Red One body?

Or is the only way to get a monstro chip is to get a Scarlett or Epic body?

Therefore, the Red One Monstro upgrade is upgrading to the FF35? That's my current understanding.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Monstro has a RED ONE upgrade path... as we promised from day one.

Jim

LINK>>> (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=247089&postcount=6)

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Things may have changed from April,

Stephen

[Jason Ing]

LINK>>> (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=247089&postcount=6)

I think this is part of the confusion. Not only could things have changed because that was said in context and the context has drastically changed by then. Even Jim has said that was when there was only one epic body that cost 40k.

This thread is about keeping the Red One body but getting the monstro sensor. Which I don't think is going to happen. You can only get the mysterium x sensor.

[Sanjin Jukic]

This thread is about keeping the Red One body but getting the monstro sensor. Which I don't think is going to happen. You can only get the mysterium x sensor.

All the confusion about R1 upgrade is that Mysterium-X should go in production very soon (before or after Christmas).

It's very logical that R1 is getting M-X as it was "promised" here to us from a day one.

In the same time you get first Scarlet with fixed lens for a bargain price just to accelerate a wide range of consumer interest in all thing about RED technology.

Then after that is coming Monstro with Epic and again Scarlet and also R1 should get it.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jason Ing]

Oh, okay. Maybe I'm wrong. Which would be great. I'd be happy to be wrong if it's just a matter of time for my Red One to get a monstro sensor. That's all I really want. But I have yet to see a straight statement that the monstro sensor will go into a Red One. So I'm not holding my breath.

[Rob Castiglione]

I dont think that there is any ambiguity about the statements made by Jim and posted here. R1 has a monstro (I wish they would change its name) upgrade path.

Rob

[Stephen Pruitt]

Wow. . . if my RED One is getting the possibility to move up to Monstro (obviously at extra charge), then that is music to my ears.

Thanks.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Oh, okay. Maybe I'm wrong. Which would be great. I'd be happy to be wrong if it's just a matter of time for my Red One to get a monstro sensor. That's all I really want. But I have yet to see a straight statement that the monstro sensor will go into a Red One. So I'm not holding my breath.

Hi,

It might be possible but the upgrade to Epic will possibly be cheaper, I think one has to accept that technology does move forward fast.

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi,

It might be possible but the upgrade to Epic will possibly be cheaper, I think one has to accept that technology does move forward fast.

Stephen

More then 5.000 R1 sold worldwide till end of 2008 is a base of RED market and power.

I wouldn't say that RED is going to make R1 upgrade so "hard", otherwise...

As we know that computer sales reached maximum about 4-3 years ago and then started to decline

two-three years ago when IBM finally sold its computer division to China and also Apple started to make

iPod and recently iPhone just to stay alive as a brand on the market.

It's hard to expect that those 5.000 R1 can be "traded" very fast to another product even more superior than R1 Mysterium.

Easy upgrade program for R1 should be a gift to all RED believers.

Also economy situation has got in troubles and consumer spending should decline in the next year for sure.

Again easy upgrade program for R1 from the next Myst-X till the highest Monstro sensor should keep RED project alive through this troubled period.

The situation at the high-end camera market is also very close connected to this economy situation and it's not at all independent.

[Jason Ing]

I dont think that there is any ambiguity about the statements made by Jim and posted here. R1 has a monstro (I wish they would change its name) upgrade path.

Rob

The ambiguity is some people interpret that as being able to put a monstro sensor into the Red One body.

But that may not be the case if "upgrade path" is meant as getting the monstro Epic through the 17.5k credit program.

[Rob Castiglione]

Hi Jason. I think that if that is what was intended that is what would have been said. When Red says that Red One has an upgrade path to Mysterium X, are we also to interpret that to mean that you will need to purchase a Scarlet or Epic?

Rob

[Stephen Williams]

More then 5.000 R1 sold worldwide till end of 2008 is a base of RED market and power.
.

Hi,

I personally know of a few reservations that were not completed, I expect the no. of cameras delivered will be under 5000 by the end of December.

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi,

I personally know of a few reservations that were not completed, I expect the no. of cameras delivered will be under 5000 by the end of December.

Stephen


I do not and never would speculate in that sort of numbers or details.

[Jason Ing]

Hi Jason. I think that if that is what was intended that is what would have been said. When Red says that Red One has an upgrade path to Mysterium X, are we also to interpret that to mean that you will need to purchase a Scarlet or Epic?

Rob

I think things were said in context. Intentions were based on future "possibilities" and not written in stone.

Jim is an honorable man of his word, but it would be unfair to hold someone to his word if that context changed. And it did.

The following is the latest from Jim. One particular sentence is of interest to this thread:

Beyond the new Mysterium-X sensor option we will continue to offer firmware upgrades, service and parts for the RED ONE.

How do you interpret this? "Beyond" doesn't say anything about a monstro sensor. And the rest makes it appear that the path to monstro is through scarlett and epic. I might be wrong. Just my take on things.



What we hadn't imagined back then was a way to make "Obsolescence Obsolete" a much more broad concept. With Scarlet and Epic... it means being able to upgrade EVERYTHING as technology advances. Every component, on an individual level, can be upgraded and improved. The RED ONE is a modular system that can be upgraded. Scarlet and EPIC are completely modular and upgradeable in every way.

So what happens to the RED ONE owner with the release of Scarlet and EPIC? What about our promise? Since we have found a way to make Scarlet and EPIC upgradeable and interchangeable in every way, we decided that "Obsolescence Obsolete" applies to the RED ONE camera as we envisioned it in the beginning. But it now also applies to the RED ONE owner .

A RED ONE owner has several choices.

1. A RED ONE owner can keep the RED ONE and upgrade to the Mysterium-X sensor for a TBD price... just as we promised.

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

3. A RED ONE owner can choose to keep their RED ONE and receive a one-time credit of 12% on a Scarlet system purchase.

Once any of the above has been chosen, the serial number will be marked as "Executed". It can not be used again for #2 or #3. It can, however, always be eligible for another sensor upgrade as we release new sensor technology in the future.

A RED ONE owner also has priority on purchasing a Scarlet or EPIC. Beyond the new Mysterium-X sensor option we will continue to offer firmware upgrades, service and parts for the RED ONE. It has become the legacy of RED. We will never forget the camera and those that believed in RED with their purchase of the now famous, RED ONE.

[Stephen Williams]

I do not and never would speculate in that sort of numbers or details.

You stated more than 5000, which is speculation

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I would understand that to mean Red One will be discontinued with monstro upgrades buy buying either Scarlet or Epic.

Stephen


I think things were said in context. Intentions were based on future "possibilities" and not written in stone.

Jim is an honorable man of his word, but it would be unfair to hold someone to his word if that context changed. And it did.

The following is the latest from Jim. One particular sentence is of interest to this thread:

Beyond the new Mysterium-X sensor option we will continue to offer firmware upgrades, service and parts for the RED ONE.

How do you interpret this? "Beyond" doesn't say anything about a monstro sensor. And the rest makes it appear that the path to monstro is through scarlett and epic. I might be wrong. Just my take on things.



What we hadn't imagined back then was a way to make "Obsolescence Obsolete" a much more broad concept. With Scarlet and Epic... it means being able to upgrade EVERYTHING as technology advances. Every component, on an individual level, can be upgraded and improved. The RED ONE is a modular system that can be upgraded. Scarlet and EPIC are completely modular and upgradeable in every way.

So what happens to the RED ONE owner with the release of Scarlet and EPIC? What about our promise? Since we have found a way to make Scarlet and EPIC upgradeable and interchangeable in every way, we decided that "Obsolescence Obsolete" applies to the RED ONE camera as we envisioned it in the beginning. But it now also applies to the RED ONE owner .

A RED ONE owner has several choices.

1. A RED ONE owner can keep the RED ONE and upgrade to the Mysterium-X sensor for a TBD price... just as we promised.

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

3. A RED ONE owner can choose to keep their RED ONE and receive a one-time credit of 12% on a Scarlet system purchase.

Once any of the above has been chosen, the serial number will be marked as "Executed". It can not be used again for #2 or #3. It can, however, always be eligible for another sensor upgrade as we release new sensor technology in the future.

A RED ONE owner also has priority on purchasing a Scarlet or EPIC. Beyond the new Mysterium-X sensor option we will continue to offer firmware upgrades, service and parts for the RED ONE. It has become the legacy of RED. We will never forget the camera and those that believed in RED with their purchase of the now famous, RED ONE.

[Stephen Pruitt]

I know I only have a Ph.D. and all, but this is starting to tax my brain. Perhaps I should be more specific:

Is it planned that the Monstro chip will ever be placed into R1 bodies?

We KNOW that there is R1 Mysterium-X body in the works. . . but I was unsure about the Monstro>R1.

Stephen

[Dominic Cochran]

More then 5.000 R1 sold worldwide till end of 2008 is a base of RED market and power.




I do not and never would speculate in that sort of numbers or details.

One of these things is not like the other.

Anyway, I think it's been made fairly clear that Monstro is not going to make it into a R1 body, hence the offer of full trade-in value to Epic.

Full R1 trade-in value on Epic=the upgrade path to Monstro sensor.

[Jannard]

The RED ONE can be upgraded to Mysterium-X after EPIC S35 begins shipping. The RED ONE can also be upgraded to Monstro sometime in 2010. Both of these upgrades will cost money.

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim

[Dominic Cochran]

Great news, love that we get the option of doing both.

[Steve Sherrick]

The RED ONE can be upgraded to Mysterium-X after EPIC S35 begins shipping. The RED ONE can also be upgraded to Monstro sometime in 2010. Both of these upgrades will cost money.

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim
The important thing is you are offering options. No one is being left behind. As far as I'm concerned, you are upholding all of your original promises on upgradeability, as well as offering a new line of completely modular cameras. The design of Red One is much more hardlined than Scarlet or Epic, and all I ever expected was sensor upgrades. I knew the body wasn't going to change. You have delivered on your word Jim.

[Sanjin Jukic]

The RED ONE can be upgraded to Mysterium-X after EPIC S35 begins shipping. The RED ONE can also be upgraded to Monstro sometime in 2010. Both of these upgrades will cost money.

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim

Jim,

thanks for the info.

R1 will never die.

Your best post ever on this forum.

[Stephen Williams]

R1 will never die.
.

Hi,

It may not be die, but with old technology sensor it will not be as cool as an Epic or Scarlet.

Stephen

[Rick Darge]

Hey Jim,

After I upgrade to an Epic S35, can I upgrade to a FF35 for a fee? Or am I stuck at 5K S35 with the option to upgrade the sensor as we move along.


The RED ONE can be upgraded to Mysterium-X after EPIC S35 begins shipping. The RED ONE can also be upgraded to Monstro sometime in 2010. Both of these upgrades will cost money.

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim

[Steve Sherrick]

Hi,

It may not be die, but with old technology sensor it will not be as cool as an Epic or Scarlet.

Stephen

neither will film...(ducking an evil stare from Stephen) :-)

[Stephen Williams]

neither will film...(ducking an evil stare from Stephen) :-)

Hi Steven,

Shooting film is the first choice for many people. It still outperforms any digital sensor.

Stephen

[Luis Otero]

... The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim

Jim,

I know most likely you get irritated and somehow frustrated after the type of comments I am going to post here, but I need to express my opinion about your comment above:

With all due respect, your comment is exactly what I understood was the basic philosophical principle Red was pledging will never do to the Red One early adopters...

If the business plan changed because a better one was defined, great! I am a creative business person, and I will hate to see your company not being ahead of others; I believe in Red. However, this change on strategy/approach should trigger the revisiting of another decisions, such as the fact that the $17.5K credit can be used exclusively for the Epic. Otherwise, we Red One owners will never feel at ease with all the great news we got from Red last week since we will feel somewhat used; to be more direct, will feel part of an experiment. I do not like to feel that way...

I am excited about the new modularity and the endless possibilities of the new cameras, but that is exactly what we were told we will get if we got on board and believe on the Red One. For example, I think the $17.5K credit should not be exclusively limited toward an Epic.

If I can use such credit, (and really be able to use ALL the accessories I bought from RED for the other cameras), to buy the modules I feel suit better my needs, which was what I thought we will have, I will feel a real partner on this journey rather that being part of an experiment.

Anyways, I am pretty sure things will change, get adjusted, etc., but I really think that to have a customer base not feeling this way (I have read the same argument and frustration all over the cyber community) you should evaluate not just the strategy as it was done, but how you will make feel better the ones that put the $1,000 into the "scam".

Respectfully,

[Steve Sherrick]

Hi Steven,

Shooting film is the first choice for many people. It still outperforms any digital sensor.

Stephen
Stephen, I'm of course kidding. I have a record of defending film on this forum. Even I have to admit though, that if the new Red cameras perform as well as the specs indicate, even the diehard film people may have to take a closer look at digital.

Anyway, let's hope there's room for every format, including film and Red One.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Film for still photography is almost dead.

RED technology with M CMOS sensors and REDCODE is turning point that film for moving images will die in the next 5 years.

Or film as a moving images acquisition would finish soon and maybe a film for movie prints and projection would stay longer.

ARRI and Panavision as a main movie camera makers were already heavily involved their financial sources to dig up for digital technology.

DI is a standard for film post production today.

If RED would deliver what they promised with DR 13+ and all types of sensor sizes then film acquisition should look very soon for a nice place in many of worlds museums.

[Stephen Williams]

Film for still photography is almost dead.

If RED would deliver what they promised with DR 13+ and all types of sensor sizes then film acquisition should look very soon for a nice place in many of worlds museums.

Hi,

The connection with film & cinema motion picture photography does not really work, for news & cheap TV video replaced film long ago.

That would be in Sony S35 territory, that co-exist with film today as with your RED One.

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

In Germany and Austria they shooting a cheap TV commercial still on ARRI 35 mm because they want to make themselves Very Important Persons as a real filmmakers :) .

And as we know here that technology is not equal creativity

or your acquisition format would not make you more creative.

[Jason Ing]

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim


Well, considering the source, that's officially cleared up. Glad my understanding was wrong.

But if an Epic monstro upgrade is only "slightly" more then a Red One monstro upgrade, then that puts the Red One monstro sensor upgrade at least into 10-15k+ since an Epic monstro is 35k. (I'm quite sure Jim's idea of slightly more money and my slightly more money is drastically different). :)

So, if an upgrade did cost that much more, then, yeah, it just makes more sense to get an Epic.

But what's an interesting statement is the possibility of Red upgrading the used Red One bodies with monstro sensors. What would be the price point? More then the original 17.5k, of course, but not too close to an Epic monstro or what would be the incentive to buy upgraded Red Ones?

anyway, at least there was a clue to the cost of the Red One monstro upgrade. looks like it's epic ff35 or scarlet monstro for me.

[Stephen Williams]

And as we know here that technology is not equal creativity

or your acquisition format would not make you more creative.

Hi,

It's always been the man behind the camera that counted. For the last year I was hearing how all that would change when 35mm quality was available to the masses. The same was said when DV came to the market. Sounds like the same old FUD you get from people who are frightened of new technology.

Stephen who has shot with a Red & on 35mm film in the last 7 days, looking forward to next year shooting 35mm, Scarlet & Epic.

[Jannard]

Well, considering the source, that's officially cleared up. Glad my understanding was wrong.

But if an Epic monstro upgrade is only "slightly" more then a Red One monstro upgrade, then that puts the Red One monstro sensor upgrade at least into 10-15k+ since an Epic monstro is 35k. (I'm quite sure Jim's idea of slightly more money and my slightly more money is drastically different). :)

So, if an upgrade did cost that much more, then, yeah, it just makes more sense to get an Epic.

But what's an interesting statement is the possibility of Red upgrading the used Red One bodies with monstro sensors. What would be the price point? More then the original 17.5k, of course, but not too close to an Epic monstro or what would be the incentive to buy upgraded Red Ones?

anyway, at least there was a clue to the cost of the Red One monstro upgrade. looks like it's epic ff35 or scarlet monstro for me.

The equivalent upgrade from RED ONE to EPIC would be the $28K S35. Sensor upgrade for RED ONE is less than that difference.

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

The equivalent upgrade from RED ONE to EPIC would be the $28K S35. Sensor upgrade for RED ONE is less than that difference.

Jim

Hopefully the sensor upgrade pricing for R1 will be at RED online shop as soon as sensors are available.

[James Brundige]

I believe in Red. However, this change on strategy/approach should trigger the revisiting of another decisions, such as the fact that the $17.5K credit can be used exclusively for the Epic. Otherwise, we Red One owners will never feel at ease with all the great news we got from Red last week since we will feel somewhat used; to be more direct, will feel part of an experiment. I do not like to feel that way...

I am excited about the new modularity and the endless possibilities of the new cameras, but that is exactly what we were told we will get if we got on board and believe on the Red One. For example, I think the $17.5K credit should not be exclusively limited toward an Epic.

If I can use such credit, (and really be able to use ALL the accessories I bought from RED for the other cameras), to buy the modules I feel suit better my needs, which was what I thought we will have, I will feel a real partner on this journey rather that being part of an experiment.

Respectfully,

I have tried to submit this idea on another thread

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22290

It is done with the utmost trepidation, because I have seen many posts by those who get a great deal, and then just ask for more. I have a lot of respect for the way customers are being treated. However, for my particular needs, it would be great to apply the Red One Credit to one or more Scarlets and accessories. On the thread, it was pointed out that my only option is to sell the R1, collect the cash, and buy the Scarlet. With the lenses and all, I'm sure I'll want to spend upwards of $30,000. I wish there was another choice for some one who signed on in early 06, endured a long wait and some technical hurdles, and wants to stay a part of the movement. The epic, with all the needed modules and new lensing, may be out of my reach.

[Jannard]

I have tried to submit this idea on another thread

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22290

It is done with the utmost trepidation, because I have seen many posts by those who get a great deal, and then just ask for more. I have a lot of respect for the way customers are being treated. However, for my particular needs, it would be great to apply the Red One Credit to one or more Scarlets and accessories. On the thread, it was pointed out that my only option is to sell the R1, collect the cash, and buy the Scarlet. With the lenses and all, I'm sure I'll want to spend upwards of $30,000. I wish there was another choice for some one who signed on in early 06, endured a long wait and some technical hurdles, and wants to stay a part of the movement. The epic, with all the needed modules and new lensing, may be out of my reach.

What new modules? The same ones you would need for a Scarlet? And new lenses? Same as a RED ONE. You have the option to keep your RED ONE and pay nothing. I assume it is taking great images? Or you can spend some money to upgrade the sensor. Or a bit more to upgrade to S35 EPIC.

Lots of good options. Including the one we promised when you bought the camera. Trading in a R1 for full credit on a Scarlet is not going to work. Plus, I am afraid you will miss many features on a Scarlet if you are used to shooting a RED ONE.

Jim

[C.H.Haskell]

The thing that is throwing me off when I look at these figures is that I 1st thought about upgrading to a FF35 monstro down the road, exchange the R1 in for 17,500 credit, pay another 17,500 and now I am upgraded...wrong, all I have is a "Brain". How much is the REDmote, the body does not come with this? Sure I can use my existing LCD, EVF batteries etc (and thats great) but I still need an IO break out module and CF module if I want the same capabilities as my old R1 had...what else Jim?

I am trying to figure out (and we wont know until Jim does) what the RED1 upgrade to EPIC path is really going to cost to have at least the features my R1 had, did I mention the minimal items or am I missing something? RED riser also?

[Jason Ing]

The equivalent upgrade from RED ONE to EPIC would be the $28K S35. Sensor upgrade for RED ONE is less than that difference.

Jim

So, correct me if I'm wrong. The Mysterium X sensor only upgrade is 10.5k. The monstro sensor only upgrade is 17.5k.

Oh, I see. My bad. The small difference in cost savings isn't that the sensor was going to be reduced in price for a Red One owner (which I wrongly assumed), the small difference in price is from the cost of getting the remainder of "accessories" to be up and running since an Epic upgrade is brain only. Got it.

[Sanjin Jukic]

So, correct me if I'm wrong. The Mysterium X sensor only upgrade is 10.5k. The monstro sensor only upgrade is 17.5k.



To guess the prices it's always a game.

Waiting for the official pricing from RED.

[Stephen Williams]

So, correct me if I'm wrong. The Mysterium X sensor only upgrade is 10.5k. The monstro sensor only upgrade is 17.5k.
.

Hi,

Looks reasonable to me, I can't see RED Ones values holding up very well on the second hand market. A new (future) RED One will have a new sensor & a 12 month warranty.

Stephen

[Jason Ing]

To guess the prices it's always a game.

Waiting for the official pricing from RED.

Well, "less then that difference" could mean Red One owner would have a slight discount in the sensor upgrade.

Okay, I give up. haha.

I'll wait for a real number from Jim.

[JanneJansson]

Hi,

Looks reasonable to me, I can't see RED Ones values holding up very well on the second hand market. A new (future) RED One will have a new sensor & a 12 month warranty.

Stephen


I have had a few days thinking of what is my best option. Get a Epic S35, upgrade my R1, get a Scarlet S35. But I think my best option is just to hold on my dear old gold coins for a while longer. I'll be back in a year or two when my R1 is ready for retirement.

Cheers

[Ian Laurie]

Jim, I feel sorry for you that everyone is expecting you to please them. Just thought you might need to here this again. Thank you. and to the red team and bomb squad. Thank you. How does that saying go... you can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. As hard as you have tried. and for the people that think i am rich or sucking up... I Plan on keeping my R1 as my only camera for the foreseeable future. I can't afford epic, scarlet doesn't do it for me, and if the speculation is right, i won't be getting an upgraded sensor for awhile. and yet magically my camera still works. ha go figure.

[James Brundige]

What new modules? The same ones you would need for a Scarlet? And new lenses? Same as a RED ONE. You have the option to keep your RED ONE and pay nothing. I assume it is taking great images? Or you can spend some money to upgrade the sensor. Or a bit more to upgrade to S35 EPIC.

Lots of good options. Including the one we promised when you bought the camera. Trading in a R1 for full credit on a Scarlet is not going to work. Plus, I am afraid you will miss many features on a Scarlet if you are used to shooting a RED ONE.

Jim

Thanks for listening. That's quite impressive by itself.

New modules = I/O, integrated battery pack, REDmote, new top mount - all the great goodies in your renders. I assume $10K to finish the camera.

Lenses = Don't you want to sell those new Red lenses?

Much to my surprise, the high end Scarlet is plenty of camera for my purposes, and will work better, I think, as a still brain. Sure, I would miss some features, but, as far as I'm concerned, the bottom line in replacing film is dynamic range - that's the limitation of my current (nature) footage. 13+ stops sounds like the grail. Therefore Monstro. So that leaves me the choice of a $12K (plus required add ons) Scarlet or a $35K (+++) Epic.

Since I never shoot over 30fps, or anamorphic etc., the extra $25K (less than the value of this trade in) is not a choice I would make. I'd love to have something left to spend on the new lenses.

I'll make it work somehow. I am just hoping not to take a $10,000 hit on the R1. And if I sell the R1, do I lose my place in line for a Scarlet? Don't want to be Red-less for too long!

Thanks again for the great work.

[James Brundige]

Jim, I feel sorry for you that everyone is expecting you to please them. Just thought you might need to here this again. Thank you. and to the red team and bomb squad. Thank you. How does that saying go... you can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. As hard as you have tried. and for the people that think i am rich or sucking up... I Plan on keeping my R1 as my only camera for the foreseeable future. I can't afford epic, scarlet doesn't do it for me, and if the speculation is right, i won't be getting an upgraded sensor for awhile. and yet magically my camera still works. ha go figure.

Not expecting special service - just imagining there are a few current customers in my position who would like to move to the new technology, but for whom epic is a stretch. We should not be penalized for investing early.
The R1 take great pictures, but it is heavy, slow, and very hard to hand hold. All of those things are getting fixed, and I hope to stay on the leading (not bleeding) edge.

[Rick Darge]

Yea, there is part of me that agrees with you James. If Red gave us the option, I would jump for a FF35 Scarlet over the Epic. I would rent Epic brains if I needed milder compression and more framerates. Scarlet sounds amazing for it is. But it sounds like Scarlet is planning on totally crippling the R1 in terms of value for dollar. The owners who decide to do nothing to their Red One will be left in the dust, IMHO. We're kinda being pushed for an upgrade. But, different needs for different deeds.

[Peter McCully]

It amazes me that no mater how much Jim has done or offered, there's always those for whom it's not enough. To quote Arnie "Stop whining!" The trade-in upgrade offer is incredible as is. Of course Red has the right to decide what they offer and what they don't - not us the customers.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

today i was asked if this jim red guy is crazy for giving people the
17500 USD credit.

they are in the car business....they told me they would get killed if they would present such an idea to their bosses.

i am glad jim loves cams more then cars...but didnt he have this batmobile type of thing?

[Jim Exton]

It amazes me that no mater how much Jim has done or offered, there's always those for whom it's not enough. To quote Arnie "Stop whining!" The trade-in upgrade offer is incredible as is. Of course Red has the right to decide what they offer and what they don't - not us the customers.

The trade in upgrade offer is not incredible for people who can't afford it. Only for those of us who can.

I don't really care one way or another, but I can at least see where some Red One owners think they got stuck with a camera that is going to be 2nd rate when the Scarlet S35mm comes out.

Edit: I saw somewhere else where the new Red One Monstro might possibly be in the ballpark of $10,000. If that is the case, then Red One owners won't be losing anything because they can buy a Scarlett S35mm Monstro for around that, keep the r1 accessories that will work on the Scarlett (which is most of them) and not be out any money, nor be screwed in anyway. Especially with the r1 discount on Scarlet system.

[Peter McCully]

I don't really care one way or another, but I can at least see where some Red One owners think they got stuck with a camera that is going to be 2nd rate when the Scarlet S35mm comes out.



I don't think staying with R1 and the upgrades for it can be called "stuck" or "second rate". It's features will still be very comprehensive. And in future the upgrade path is there whatever options you take.

[david farland]

Yep....this thread has a few whingers wanting to extract every ounce they feel is their birthright for purchasing a Redone.

Stop treating Jim like a bitch with 5000 nipples.
He said if you bought a Red he'd look after you....help you with upgrades...not give you social security payments for life!

The very fact you 'feel' he should provide you with meal tickets probably means you're still thinking and posting like a child!

Stop! Think for 1 min what YOU would do in this business transaction..
Think if you sold your Red (or something you made)....how you would provide continued support your customer!!....Then please, with all repect...Shut the F$$K up!!

D

[Luis Otero]

David,

We can have difference of opinions: that is the purpose of an open forum like this one. But that does not give you the right to talk to others the way you just did. It really crossed the line from "preaching" or strongly voice your opinion, and got into be insulting. After all, we are all adults...

[david farland]

You're correct Luis...it is a bit rough!

And yes we are all adults but after a constant scream of...can I?... can I?...the point I'm trying to get across is...as an adult, swap positions & think!

Think what you would do!
D

[Jason Ing]

Ladies Ladies Ladies
Stop whining like little girls...that's my job!
D

David,

You're just jealous that your job was stolen by other little girls.

:)

[Luis Otero]

David,

Swapping positions, as a business person I will take care first of my customer base, specially after they gambled the money into the "scam" two years before a concrete and tangible product was available, and make sure the concept promises are fulfilled (more DR, etc). After all, we are all part of Red's advertisement plan... Just think about it, and if you want we can discuss it off-line...

[Jason Ing]

David,

Swapping positions, as a business person I will take care first of my customer base, specially after they gambled the money into the "scam" two years before a concrete and tangible product was available, and make sure the concept promises are fulfilled (more DR, etc). After all, we are all part of Red's advertisement plan... Just think about it, and if you want we can discuss it off-line...

Uh, oh...

... FIGHT!!!

Everyone!

... CAT FIGHT!!!

MEOOOOWWWW!!!!

[Luis Otero]

Jason,

My first instinct when I saw your post: "grow-up, kid". If you think this is a fight, I am really sorry for you.

This is a forum, where we exchange opinions, most of them are healthy since we ALL have different points of view based on our unique backgrounds, understandings and expectations. This has made these line of products better. That is what makes this experience unique.

So, I suggest to be constructive, not take it personal, and before posting, examine if your comment or question is going to sparkle a mature exchange of opinions, that even though may be divergent, they will add value to the rest of the cyber community.

[Jason Ing]

Luis,

Apparently you either lack humor, you're too uptight and stuffy, or you really need to get laid and smoke a joint.

If you take everything in context and my previous post, especially the one that I quote David's previous humorous post and call him a little girl as he called others, you should hopefully "surmise" (hey, that word sounds adult and mature, huh?) that I'm poking fun at you two arguing back and forth.

As you point yourself, this is a forum. We have "different points of view based on our unique backgrounds, understandings and expectations". I tend not to be Niles or Frazier Crane. I learn from this forum, hopefully share and help out others, and sometimes I kid and joke around.

So out of respect for the diversity of this forum, we don't always have to be constructive or self-reflect and examine our comments and polish them so they sparkle with such mature, pomposity.

Take it easy. I meant no harm or disrespect. I think David will get my fun teasing.

If you don't agree or understand what I just said, then the mature, adult thing to do is retract the previous posts and statements and say to you...

:bleh:

[Luis Otero]

Point taken. Life is short and we need to live it to its full extent. I am known among my friends to have a good sense of humor...

However, there is time to joke, and time to talk serious business. I think I have developed the skill to understand when it is the appropriate time for each one.

PS

Do you own a Red? What serial number? I have been around this adventure for a long time...

[Jason Ing]

Cool. Peace.

Yes, I'm a Red Owner. I can't remember my serial number... 1500's. Because, tragically, I shot twice with it. :( Although one shoot was really cool because I was shooting with a 10mm directly behind the goal when David Beckham scored.

I'm one of those masochistic birger mount waiters. I've recently canceled and ordered a nikon mount. So I hope to do less lurking and being silly on this forum and more shooting.

[david farland]

Ladies Ladies Ladies

I feel better we're taking swipes at our selves than little Jimmy.
Apart from a little pissin' competition, the world is ticking over....

1. Jim's said he's going to provide a future R1 upgrade path...√
2. There's a nice fat trade-in for Epic whatever.....√
3. We have to wait longer we'd like for 3+ stop......X

Not too bad...... Dave

[James Brundige]

Yep....this thread has a few whingers wanting to extract every ounce they feel is their birthright for purchasing a Redone.

Stop treating Jim like a bitch with 5000 nipples.
He said if you bought a Red he'd look after you....help you with upgrades...not give you social security payments for life!

The very fact you 'feel' he should provide you with meal tickets probably means you're still thinking and posting like a child!

Stop! Think for 1 min what YOU would do in this business transaction..
Think if you sold your Red (or something you made)....how you would provide continued support your customer!!....Then please, with all repect...Shut the F$$K up!!

D

If you read my posts, there is no whining at all. There is a carefully worded request to not leave behind those of us who spent $40 K on Red stuff this year, and don't have another $40 K for the next year. Jim was able to answer me in the same tone, which is more than you can pull off.

[Steve Sherrick]

Yep....this thread has a few whingers wanting to extract every ounce they feel is their birthright for purchasing a Redone.

Stop treating Jim like a bitch with 5000 nipples.
He said if you bought a Red he'd look after you....help you with upgrades...not give you social security payments for life!

The very fact you 'feel' he should provide you with meal tickets probably means you're still thinking and posting like a child!

Stop! Think for 1 min what YOU would do in this business transaction..
Think if you sold your Red (or something you made)....how you would provide continued support your customer!!....Then please, with all repect...Shut the F$$K up!!

D
Yikes man, I just got a cold chill down my spine. wow. Bring some warm fuzziness back into the room. :)

[James Brundige]

You're correct Luis...it is a bit rough!

And yes we are all adults but after a constant scream of...can I?... can I?...the point I'm trying to get across is...as an adult, swap positions & think!

Think what you would do!
D

If I developed a product (Scarlet) that kills the resale value of the previous product I just sold the customer, I would offer them an upgrade path. That is what Red is doing. It's an enlightened business model that tries to build a loyal customer base, and make sense. What we are trying to discuss is a refinement to that policy, because some feel a little stuck with a quickly obsoleted product, and may not be able to take advantage of the offer that is on the table. What's the problem here?

[david farland]

Bring some warm fuzziness back into the room. :love: :love: :innocent: :innocent:

[Steve Sherrick]

James, if I play the devil's advocate here, I would be more apt to side with you if Red released a new camera on the 13th. I would have felt like WTF just happened? But the reality is the new cameras won't be out for a while and there is plenty of opportunity for Red One to still be a very viable camera choice for the next year, at least, if not beyond. Think about it, everything is subject to change. To me, what's important is what is here right now. And that's a pretty good camera by most accounts. Keep it busy the next few months and the upgrade paths will be a lot more attractive.

[david farland]

back with a feeling of love & peace..... I think Jim is doing 1 thing that doesn't fit within his previous philosophies and that is to not offer a S35 to FF35 upgrade subsidy. All the rest is just a matter of fine tuning with the prices.
D

[James Brundige]

The issue I'm having is that the new line up is SO much better than the R1, which I find to be heavy, slow, and VERY hard to hand hold. With the better dynamic range, I can't see staying with the R1 at all. The FF epic, with trade in, will be $17,500 plus modules - probably $25 - $30 K. Or buy a FF Scarlet set up around $17K to $20K. Having just dropped $40K on a R1, that's gonna be hard.

Those of us who struggled with Avid from it's inception know the story - every two years you needed another $30K. I was so happy to ditch them as soon as Final Cut became viable. I don't want to end up feeling that way about Red.

I guess you gotta pay to play. I'll just sell some Citibank stock. Doh! Or start selling my body on street corners. hmmmm At least I've got a year to figure it out. The good news is we end up with a MUCH better camera.

[Ian Laurie]

James, You make it sound as though the R1 is already dead and gone. It's not. It is different than Epic and Scarlet, But not obsolete. I don't personally have a need to be up and running within a couple of seconds. Nor do I have a need to have a lightweight camera. Plus depending on your purposes attaching all the modules may not be all that fast either. Now having said that I understand that your concerns are valid for a different kind of shooter than me. But what will happen a year after you get scarlet and red comes out with a twelve ounce camera with unheard of dynamic range. are you going to be upset that you purchased a four pound camera? And as far as better camera goes that is again subjective to the shooter. a red one with the sensor upgrade is my ideal camera.

[James Brundige]

Ian, I shoot docs for TV, mostly solo. For my purposes, the Red One is quite limited. I only use it for B-Roll. Still using my Sonys for situations where I have to move quickly, use audio, or shady situations with high contrast highlights. It takes beautiful pictures when you have the time and resources to run it right, but as a solo in the field, it is heavy, slow, and very hard to hand hold. And with no communication between lens and camera, it takes much more time to nail focus and exposure. In the middle of a fast moving situation, I need to be able to hit the auto iris button. The R1 works better with a crew and good support options. I think it is a real winner for the feature crowd who have these resources, and time to set up and meter each shot.

I'm very excited about the new Red line up, because it appears to fix all of those problems. Some great thought and design has happened, with a lot of feedback from the first generation of Reds. I think we will all want to migrate, especially those of us who work solo (usually) shooting EFP. I could finally lose the Sonys, which I would love to do.

The big surprise here is that the high end Scarlets may be the perfect tool for my market segment, so I have respectfully requested that as an upgrade path. I don't think that is an unreasonable request because, if I adopt the new system, Red stands to make plenty of money selling me lenses and auxiliary gear for years to come. The response has gone from a polite no (Jim) to being flamed (fanboys who think they are defending Jim) I am disappointed because it means I'll have to come up with another $20 or $30 K to stay in the game, and own a Red that really meets my particular needs.

So it goes. In thirty years, I've made money with some cameras (Arri SR II , BetaCam) and lost money with others (DSR-500, HDCAM) Waiting to see where my Red One will end up. My final investment in a Red package will now top $70,000, which is not what it looked like two years ago, when I put my deposit down. Upon reflection, I guess the issue for me is this: The new line up makes the Red obsolete for me because they will (I hope) finally make Red my A camera. This is not the case for many users, for whom the Red 1 is ideal.
__________________

[oldphart]

Ladies Ladies Ladies

I feel better we're taking swipes at our selves than little Jimmy.
Apart from a little pissin' competition, the world is ticking over....

1. Jim's said he's going to provide a future R1 upgrade path...√
2. There's a nice fat trade-in for Epic whatever.....√
3. We have to wait longer we'd like for 3+ stop......X

Not too bad...... Dave

True words. Besides, I am uncertain if those who clamour for a physical upgrade of the R1 to Monstro have actually considered the implications. The Monstro has bigger pixels. That is the reason why it has higher senstivity and better dynamic range. This means that, with the same sensor size, you end up with less resolution. And - if it is possible to put a larger sensor in the R1, it will be an expensive upgrade.

[Scott Brown]

Having had a few days now to think through all the news (there has been a LOT to digest); I have overcome my initial feeling of disappointment with Jim's announcements.

I think what Red has announced this past week is both evolutionary and revolutionary and I thank them for that.

The root of my initial disappointment came from the fact that we were led to believe that Scarlet was to be a semi-pro pocket camera that would in NO WAY compete with our Red 1's. This clearly is not now the case as Scarlet really will be better than our existing camera in terms of picture quality and certainly in terms of every day use. As a consequence the decision has had an impact on Red owners investment and business model.

Jim has however given us ALL an exit or upgrade strategy and for that we should thank him as this is indeed something that Sony and Panasonic never have or will offer end users.

I have not decided personally what way we will go in the future. If we want to move away from Red we can use the trade in offer to effectively work out a deal to get rid of our camera and actually get back what we originally paid for it. I'm not saying that we will do this, but it is an option open to everyone who feels in any way let down with Red.

We have been knocked out by the pictures we've got out our Red 1, but for a small company that works mostly in TV documentaries, the camera has been very challenging for us to use, mostly due to the weight and size of the camera and the time-consuming post workflow. The workflow and post position is changing now very much for the better so this is no longer such a concern for us personally.

I do think the upgrade option is attractive but requires some fine tuning or compromise to accommodate the many concerns voiced by Red 1 owners and the fact that Scarlet has turned out to be a completely different camera to the one that was advertised extensively by Red.

However, for the foreseeable future we will continue to shoot beautiful pictures on our Red, the decisions on where to go will only need to be made many months down the road!

Best wishes

Scott

[Luis Otero]

If I developed a product (Scarlet) that kills the resale value of the previous product I just sold the customer, I would offer them an upgrade path. That is what Red is doing. It's an enlightened business model that tries to build a loyal customer base, and make sense. What we are trying to discuss is a refinement to that policy, because some feel a little stuck with a quickly obsoleted product, and may not be able to take advantage of the offer that is on the table. What's the problem here?

James,

With way fewer words than mine you have captured the essence of the point I have tried to make since the 13th announcement: I think it will be fair for the first 1,000 to use the $17.5K toward the Scarlet. Anyways, we helped to raise $1M for Jim (which did not need to due to his hefty checking account) to develop this project.

That way Red would maintain its promises, and we do not get stuck without a true cost effective upgrade path. I want to feel that my loyalty is paid back with the same level of commitment from Red toward us, as we believed on them before having any type of concrete product. Is that TOO much to ask for from the initial customers base??:help: ???

[Luis Otero]

...The root of my initial disappointment came from the fact that we were led to believe that Scarlet was to be a semi-pro pocket camera that would in NO WAY compete with our Red 1's. This clearly is not now the case as Scarlet really will be better than our existing camera in terms of picture quality and certainly in terms of every day use. As a consequence the decision has had an impact on Red owners investment and business model."

Scott


Scott,

Great posting! Very thoughtful...!!!

However, I have one basic disagreement with the outcome of your effort to "...overcome my initial feeling of disappointment with Jim's announcements" (believe me, I have tried too!!!):sick: My disappointment is that the exit or upgrade strategy offered (only to apply the R1 trade in value toward an Epic) is not proportionally risky for Red compared to the risk that many people, 1,000 to be exact, took to support this project at their request.

Actually, as the #711 customer, I feel very left outside of the loop, abandoned with a camera that will be bested/outdated by the originally presented less-intimidating Scarlet, without being able to use the trade-in value offered by Red toward the most robust Scarlet presented, which in fact will allow us to really get onboard the real modularity offered to us via the R1 quite some time ago. :help:

Respectfully,

Luis Otero

PS

It kills me and disappoints me that this sentiment is posted by so many R1 initial owners throughout this forum over and over again, and Red has decided to maintain silence, and does not officially address it... Or is that what will be presented and addressed the 3rd by Jim after thoroughly ponder it???:whistling:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

red is a computer.
computers get old very fast
try to give back your mac pro for a new one.

you have another year for a ROI of your red one.
if you cant make it in that time, its difficult to understand for me why someone buys a red instead of renting it for his projects.

no offend meant to anybody, just some thoughts.


i want to see what happens when in 36 months someone announces a 5k HDR Cam....for 17500 k.

if its sony everybody will say....see sony can learn...yeah...the holy grail.
if its red that announces such a camera...a lot of dudes will ask...

"why did you made my epic obsolete"

this is strange for me

[Luis Otero]

1. "red is a computer. computers get old very fast try to give back your mac pro for a new one."

2. "this is strange for me"

Cüneyt,

Let me address these two comments:

1. When we were invited to participate on this project, we were promised that the outcome will "render obsolescense obsolete", so your point about obsolete computer does not apply since we were told that this will not happen with this product.:excl:

2. You need to be one of the few (compared with today's numbers) that accepted to hop with Jim to this great roller-coster and adventure to be able to understand it, hence not be "strange" for you.:waaa:

Respectfully,

[Cüneyt Kaya]

1. When we were invited to participate on this project, we were promised that the outcome will "render obsolescense obsolete", so your point about obsolete computer does not apply since we were told that this will not happen with this product.:excl:



i see, i ordered much later, i never expected this. Cant say how this silent agreement was...wasnt on the RED wagon then.



2. You need to be one of the few (compared with today's numbers) that accepted to hop with Jim to this great roller-coster and adventure to be able to understand it, hence not be "strange" for you.:waaa:

Respectfully,

strange is the wrong word i guess...(my english)
but yes, i like the roller coaster bleeding edge stuff.
its fun

[Luis Otero]

Cant say how this silent agreement was...wasnt on the RED wagon then.


Cüneyt,

The agreement was and actually is very loud. You do not need to be part of the Red wagon then. Today you can find all over their web-site that Red's motto is: "Render Obsolescence Obsolete".

That is a profound promise and loud commitment!!!:shifty:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

what do you want luis?
cripple scarlet, change your red for scarlet instead of epic.

anyway you can upgrade the sensor of the red one.
i dont know how much generations this can last, but thinking of the brains, which you cant trade in or change the sensors, a red is pretty far away from beeing obsolete.

in the long run it still can be cheaper then moving from one brain to another...

But this turns now into speculation.

again:

i guess lets wait a little....there is no egg and no chicken yet...and things will change.

and i couldnt find the render obsolence obsolete stuff in the terms and conditions or at the page...can you give me a link

[Stephen Williams]

Refund?


what do you want luis?

[Vincent Thomas]

Or force Red politic to change and be like Sony or so?


v*

[Luis Otero]

To address the three previous postings:

1- Myself and many early othe adopters really think that the $17.5K should be allowed to us for acquiring the Scarlet flagship (FF 35) so we really are not left behind with the R1 since that brain will allow Red to fulfill the promises of more DR, real modularity, etc that R1 will get with very costly upgrades to X, and then to Monstro just for the sensor, but not for the body!(now you can understand the issue, I hope! These upgrades are going to be extremely costly at the end!!!).:greedy:

2- By doing so, Red will continue to distance themselve from the othes (Sony, etc). They will remain as a company where the customer base is heard, and actions are taken upon. Otherwise they will start to look, taste and smell more like the others. :sorcerer:

3- We do not want refund; we gambled on this idea with the modularity concept, and constant increase of DR at not cost (that was directly said by Jim as one of his goals), so we want the Scarlet upgrade path, which now fits better to the conceptual final product we thought Red was describing as the "deliverable one". You gamble since you think that you are going to win, basically because the rules are not going to change in the middle of the game. Well, I think everyone learned from the result of changing rules in the middle of the game during the Florida 2000 elections!!! :weight_lift:

We just want to get a path which will allow us to get closer to what we were explained R1 future will be. That is not much to ask, don't you all think?:umm:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

To address the three previous posting:

1- myself and many early othe adopters really think that the $17.5K can be used to acquire the Scarlet flagship so we really are not left behind with the R1 since that brain will allow Red to fulfill the promises of more DR, modularity, etc that R1 will get with very costly upgrades to Monstro (now understand the issue, I hope!).


costly?---did jim announce a price



3- we do not want refund; we gambled on this idea with the modularity concept, so we want the Scarlet upgrade path.

you have epic...
but it seems that you want a brand new camera for free...
can you please explain me the logic of giving something after 18 months back and get something brand new with 12 months warranty without paying something additional.

what happens if someone wants to change against scarlet without the assecoires....should jim jannard pay back the difference?

there is a difference between believing in an idea and this luis.


i just really want to understand the logic behind what you want

[Cüneyt Kaya]

luis be honest,
if red were your company, would you trade in reds against scarlets for free?

[Luis Otero]

luis be honest,
if red were your company, would you trade in reds against scarlets for free?

Cüneyt,

Not for free; no body is asking anything for free. However, for the first 1,000 believers I will allow them to use the trade-in credit on what they think will take them closer to what they expected to be the product with a great deal of modularity, increase of DR, and other important areas discussed throughout the last 2 1/2 years that will be part of the final product. And I will do it since the game changed, the business plan changed, so other considerations must be evaluated too.

And I tell you this with all the honesty that is expected from a gentleman.:detective2:

PS

Jim offered the trade in program. He has his reasons ($$$$$$), and because he is a gentleman. But nobody forced him to do it, even though I admire him for this level of commitment toward this revolution.

[Nick Wolf]

Why not just put your Red on E-Bay and get your investment back maybe even an extra % if you are lucky and buy a scarlet with that cash? That is pretty simple isn`t it.

Plenty of folks out there who want to get in the Epic line that way and so would actually prefer to buy a used R1 rather than go directly to them. Thats a really nice concept and I am sure that was baked in when they were considering options for early adopters.

Just sell the F_ucking thing and buy whatever you want with that cash. I am certain you will get exactly what you paid if not more for it...

I hear what you are saying and from a certain point of view its valid, from another point of view there are obvious paths "In" and obvious paths "Out" each well thought out its just to choose...You are not trapped or up shits creek.



DogDay.



P.S.
I will buy your R1 from you now if you feel that way so you can buy a Scarlet because I know when the time is right after shooting the shit out of it I will be able to turn around and get a pretty penny for it when people are scrabling to get their claws into The Epic...

[Luis Otero]

1- Why not just put your Red on E-Bay and get your investment back maybe even an extra % if you are lucky and buy a scarlet with that cash? That is pretty simple isn`t it.

2- Just sell the F_ucking thing and buy whatever you want with that cash. I am certain you will get exactly what you paid if not more for it...

3- I hear what you are saying and from a certain point of view its valid, from another point of view there are obvious paths "In" and obvious paths "Out" each well thought out its just to choose...You are not trapped or up shits creek.



DogDay.

Nick,

To address your comments:

1- I would do it when Scarlet is available. However, at that time I will not get out of it enough to buy it! You need to look at this from the business perspective: the Scarlet presented the 13th will make Red One the lower end. If you take Scarlet FF35, and compare it with the Red One, current sensor vs Monstro.... It makes no sense at all... Would you sign a contract with me that when it is available you will buy it from me @ $17.5K?

2- I will not respond to innuendoes; you can use it with your dog, but I cannot accept it as a human being.

3- I see that you are analyzing this, and are in the right path, but are not there yet... Once you are, we can talk about it.

Respectfully,

Luis

I am not battling for nickels and dimes; it is for what I feel is right, which I think one day you will comprehend.

[Nick Wolf]

Sorry Lu if I came off too harsh its just I feel your pain and I am trying to calm you down...Maybe it didnt work...No hard feelings ok.

When Scarlet comes out you can let go of your R1 and get more for it then than now...Its existance is not what makes the value go up and down its the people who will want Epic...Those who missed "The Opportunity" that you so wisely took. Those people will not want to get at the back of the line...You as an early adopter will be key for them that has a value doesnt it? That is as it is because that path was designed for you to exit or continue as you see fit.


DogDay.

P.S.
My Dog loves innuendoes...How could you know?

[Luis Otero]

Sorry Lu if I came off too harsh its just I feel your pain and I am trying to calm you down...Maybe it didnt work...No hard feelings ok.

When Scarlet comes out you can let go of your R1 and get more for it then than now...Its existance is not what makes the value go up and down its the people who will want Epic...Those who missed "The Opportunity" that you so wisely took. Those people will not want to get at the back of the line...You as an early adopter will be key for them that has a value doesnt it? That is as it is because that path was designed for you to exit or continue as you see fit.


DogDay.

P.S.
My Dog loves innuendoes...How could you know?

Nick,

I knew you were on the right path of analysis. Red One owners are now the best, and FREE, advertisement that Red has!

I am an accomplished business person; actually I have a Doctorate in Business Administration (DBA). The decision of only use the trade in toward the Epic is simple. You know which one it is, so I do not need to spell it out here.

However, from what we were told for two years of what R1 will be, and the premises of what Scarlet was going to be, and what now is going to be, they do not want to use the trade in money toward it since R1 will be the lower end camera. Only will be equivalent (sensor wise only) if you spend around $10K to go to X, and later to Monstro.

From the tax perspective, it makes a lot of sense to "give" us the full value for the R1: tax exemptions, depreciation, and much more...

I am saying too much, and I have my hopes that the announcement on the 3rd will include my petition...

Peace,

Luis

PS
Be good with your dog; he will always be there for you!:)

[Nick Wolf]

Yes Lu I would sign a contract with you providing I have the assurance that I would recieve your place (#711) in line for the Epic.

Sign it now, but you may regret it when you watch me turn around and make a nice little profit off that deal because at that stage of the game there will be people willing to pay quite a nice primium for that advantage.


DogDay.

[Nick Wolf]

Peace Lu...And yes you are right ( She ) will always be there for me...Thats her in my avatar...Her name is Pepsi....Take care man!


DogDay.

[Jannard]

Luis,

At 1st, we said that all R1 owners could trade in their RED ONE for full credit on a $40K EPIC. That still is true (although not a very good deal today).

Then, when the program changed, it was full credit on a $28K Epic... which is still true today.

If we change the program (as we have promised to do) we will need to figure out some creative way to reward our RED ONE customers for their loyalty and belief in the program. But it will not be something where RED loses money. I am sure you want RED to be financially healthy to continue to develop products for the future.

We will always give an advantage to our original RED ONE customers. And while it won't be in the form of free cameras, it will be in a very thoughtful way.

Jim

[I Bloom]

Then, when the program changed, it was full credit on a $28K Epic... which is still true today.


Just to clarify: Can the credit be put toward the FF35 Epic ($35K)?

I.Bloom

[Jannard]

Just to clarify then the credit cannot then be put toward the FF35 ($35K)?

I.Bloom

Sure it can... any EPIC, including the 645 and 617.

But hold that thought until the 3rd. Things are changing again... :-)

Jim

[I Bloom]

Sure it can... any EPIC, including the 645 and 617.

But hold that thought until the 3rd. Things are changing again... :-)

Jim

Jim, you just spilled the beans without meaning to. At least I'm willing to bet now. :devil:

Otherwise, all good news. I don't want any more freebies, sir. Just awesome cameras please.

Warm regards,
I.Bloom

[Gregory Karydis]

Sure it can... any EPIC, including the 645 and 617.

But hold that thought until the 3rd. Things are changing again... :-)

JimSweet! I think I am leaning towards the 617...
I'll wait till the 3rd and the way I see it, things will only get more interesting.
Happy Thanksgiving Jim!

[Peter McCully]

Jim, you just spilled the beans without meaning to. At least I'm willing to bet now. :devil:

Otherwise, all good news. I don't want any more freebies, sir. Just awesome cameras please.

Warm regards,
I.Bloom

With JJ there is no "without meaning to".

[Zach Nelson]

Sure it can... any EPIC, including the 645 and 617.

But hold that thought until the 3rd. Things are changing again... :-)

Jim

Sounds like there's going to be a simplification of the models. I hope I'm right - the first time I glanced at the latest product line my gut told me there were too many brains.

Sure hope the 2/3" Scarlets get replaced by the S35 brains if that means more, and less expensive, lens options.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Jim, you just spilled the beans without meaning to. At least I'm willing to bet now. :devil:

Otherwise, all good news. I don't want any more freebies, sir. Just awesome cameras please.

Warm regards,
I.Bloom

yupp.. i just got that too

[András Puiz]

617 for $617?
Sounds reasonable...

[Jannard]

Not sure what you are reading into what... you guys are too much!

Jim

[Peter McCully]

Not sure what you are reading into what... you guys are too much!

Jim

Exactly. The only beans spilled would be while reading these posts over lunch!

[Gregory Karydis]

Jim if it was up to me I'd make waaay too many suggestions, requests and assumptions that could either be money-saving or envelope pushing but this is your show and I am just enjoying the ride.
My #1333 has made me more than happy and by the looks of it Chapter 2 in the Game-Changer that is RED is going to be much more interesting.

A word to the wise;
When Jim says there will be an announcement on the 3rd, make sandwiches and take a few gallons of your favourite beverage and set up camp infront of your monitor from mid-day 2nd.

[Luis Otero]

Luis,

At 1st, we said that all R1 owners could trade in their RED ONE for full credit on a $40K EPIC. That still is true (although not a very good deal today).

Then, when the program changed, it was full credit on a $28K Epic... which is still true today.

If we change the program (as we have promised to do) we will need to figure out some creative way to reward our RED ONE customers for their loyalty and belief in the program. But it will not be something where RED loses money. I am sure you want RED to be financially healthy to continue to develop products for the future.

We will always give an advantage to our original RED ONE customers. And while it won't be in the form of free cameras, it will be in a very thoughtful way.

Jim

Jim,

As a business person, I understand your line of thought. Actually I can relate to it very much: I do want a healthy Red Co. for years to come.

As a R1 owner, however, I am just asking to fulfill the implied or direct promises made to us, and I am offering a suggestion and/or requesting a path that I think will make feel your original believers of the "scam" that we are being taken care of.

Are we requesting a special treatment? Yes, we are!!! Why? Because the assumptions at the time of joining you are completely different from the new ones. Now, any R1 buyer knows Red's strategy, but when we bought it we did it based on the original premises presented to us.

And I know you will do something knowing how you have operated in the past. Basically, we do not want to be left behind after being the loyal clients base that have served you so well as a great advertisement strategy, while we are enjoying the great benefits and perks of being part of such strategy.

Respectfully,

Luis


PS

Maybe you do not remember, but I sent you an e-mail way before any kind of Red One rendering, and having a very basic website. I still keep the e-mail after all these years. And the reason to send it to you was because of my fascination toward your entire business strategy, which I wrote to you at that time that I thought it will be used as a model for near future business degrees.

I would love to correspond with you in private (I think that your e-mail address that I have does not work any more) since there are so many colleagues on this forum that do not understand why so many people are requesting something special for us, and call us names, use innuendoes on the postings, etc., which I think is basically stopping the flow of ideas that Red Co. has always appreciated from your original base. Even some of them are not Red One owners, or they sold theirs, but still post here with an authoritative and insulting attitude that can be intimidating for some people that are not used to handle, or even being part of conflicts.

My e-mail is public, so you can send your thoughts to me, if at any point you think I can be helpful in any way, shape or form...Just as I told you on that original e-mail years ago.

[FMG battery]

Sure it can... any EPIC, including the 645 and 617.

But hold that thought until the 3rd. Things are changing again... :-)

Jimhow long?.. till january 3rd?.. ehehehehehehe

edit
:poster_oops: jan 13rd.. or dec 23rd.. or yet till next nikon or canon press release.. :)

[david farland]

Nobody took a risk with Red...
As a customer I paid a no risk $1000 with an assurity of getting back $1100k back.

Red/Reduser doesn't owe me a thing...!!

Hell even without the camera I reckon I go my $1000 back on the forum alone.I love it. It's a great talking/reading here.

The camera....is of course more exciting.

If a walked away from the forum today would I feel Red/Reduser owed me anything for buying their camera?....You'll gotta be kidding!!
I've had a great time, got a good camera...

Loyality....how about if their was actually an cheaper/better alternative from a competitor.
now you're talking about loyality!!.Right now you've got no where else to go.
Please don't use the word as a bargaining chip because well, it's not true!

Red/Reduser guys, it's us that are indebted to you for this ride you're supplied us.

Now the future....are you going to stop with 2007 technology, always patching it up, nobbling future dreams and subsidising us 'loyal' buyers.
I hope not cos if you do you'll be over taken by next year.
I know it would be suicide to leave RedOne as you're company flagship for many reasons.
I laid out about $80K in the first year and expect to pay out about half that each year. Makes business sense, particularly if I wan't to pay for the kinds of technological leaps that Red can give me.
So to Red....full stream ahead. I paid 30% of what the camera was really worth in 2007 prices. If you maintain that figure against current competition prices, i'll keep buying.
But I'm not going to ask you for a 70% discount in the first year and then for my loyality, ask for a 80% discount the next year and so forth.
i'll be loyal alright, it just won't be by asking/manipulating you for huge disproportionate discounts to what the camera is worth or should earn me...
D

[Steven Caesare]

Refund?

Good grief.

Are you just trolling here?

If not, are you telling me that's a serious suggestion?

[Luis Otero]

Nobody took a risk with Red...
As a customer I paid a no risk $1000 with an assurity of getting back $1100k back.

Red/Reduser doesn't owe me a thing...!!

Hell even without the camera I reckon I go my $1000 back on the forum alone.I love it. It's a great talking/reading here.

The camera....is of course more exciting.

If a walked away from the forum today would I feel Red/Reduser owed me anything for buying their camera?....You'll gotta be kidding!!
I've had a great time, got a good camera...

Loyality....how about if their was actually an cheaper/better alternative from a competitor.
now you're talking about loyality!!.Right now you've got no where else to go.
Please don't use the word as a bargaining chip because well, it's not true!

Red/Reduser guys, it's us that are indebted to you for this ride you're supplied us.

Now the future....are you going to stop with 2007 technology, always patching it up, nobbling future dreams and subsidising us 'loyal' buyers.
I hope not cos if you do you'll be over taken by next year.
I know it would be suicide to leave RedOne as you're company flagship for many reasons.
I laid out about $80K in the first year and expect to pay out about half that each year. Makes business sense, particularly if I wan't to pay for the kinds of technological leaps that Red can give me.
So to Red....full stream ahead. I paid 30% of what the camera was really worth in 2007 prices. If you maintain that figure against current competition prices, i'll keep buying.
But I'm not going to ask you for a 70% discount in the first year and then for my loyality, ask for a 80% discount the next year and so forth.
i'll be loyal alright, it just won't be by asking/manipulating you for huge disproportionate discounts to what the camera is worth or should earn me...
D

David, David, David...:cold: :sarcasm:

Jim is more than a simple Sony executive. What you are talking about would be from a stereotyped company, not Red.:w00t:

Happy Thanks Giving!!:innocent:

[Jarred Land]

Cüneyt,

The agreement was and actually is very loud. You do not need to be part of the Red wagon then. Today you can find all over their web-site that Red's motto is: "Render Obsolescence Obsolete".

That is a profound promise and loud commitment!!!:shifty:

Red has never made any promises.. except that things change.

[Nook Kim]

Just came across an idea while reading this, Jim. Make another brain that just does what Red One is capable of today. Only allow people to replace their Red Ones with that new "brainized" Red One (call it Red Two if you want). Now you just rendered obsolescence obsolete.

You could even use some of the parts, such as the sensor, from the current Red One owners' Red Ones.

:detective2:

[david farland]

David, David, David...:cold: :sarcasm:

Jim is more than a simple Sony executive. What you are talking about would be from a stereotyped company, not Red.:w00t:

Happy Thanks Giving!!:innocent:

Luis, Luis, Luis.....

Reading this thread....
I feel sad you're turned Jim into 'whatever' YOU want...to obtain what you want...!
Good luck with you patently obvious manipulation of a guy and what he offered, to get whatever you can.

And all under the guise of co-business man, friend & moralist.

If you strip all that fluff away, what do you get...?
A guy shameless demanding everything in the world he can....

Please stop it..you're only embarrassing yourself and irritating everyone here.
Well may you say happy thanks giving Luis.
Dave,

ps: Luis, you sound like you are an okay fella...have a step back, take a walk and forget your present agenda. That might take a week. Appraise it all again. Jim may sometimes add his own spin to things and that in itself can confuse people. But i think you've a little bit skewed with you're demands here...Dave

[Jason Ramsey]

Jim has stated (correct me if I am wrong, and subject to change with the 3rd announcement... but I would imagine would be considered at least comparable in some fasion):


Ability to upgrade RED One sensor to Mysterium X when S35 Epic begins shipping.
Ability to upgrade RED One sensor to Monstro sometime in 2010.
100%, full trade in value on your RED One body to the EPIC Brain of your choice (which will have true upgrade any part modularity...) Don't forget almost all of your current RED One accessories will work with Scarlet/EPIC systems.
Keep your RED One, buy into a Scarlet system with 12% discount, just b/c you were one of the original customers.
The RED One may not be obsolescence obsolete, but the RED One customer certainly is.

You can stay with your RED One and upgrade sensors (not offered by anyone else that I'm aware of) for the "foreseeable future".... at least through 2010 and Monstro.

You can give your camera body back to RED and have ALL of your original 17.5k back to put towards purchase of an EPIC system.... Now, I can't think of anything that even comes close to this precedent.... What about that is not unprecedented, inclusive and does not embody obsolescence obsolete?

Asking for much more than what is (currently) being offered to RED One customers seems to be counterproductive not only to RED as a business, but to you as a RED One owner.

Certainly, one would not ask for RED to limit their technological advances and development so a vocal few can feel more secure in their purchase, as that would certainly not be obsolescence obsolete... Holding back technological advances is not part of the stated RED business model. That is the old norm offered by other companies. Making you buy a completely new camera every two years (with no credit, and no upgrade path of any kind) is part of the old business model offered by other companies.

Asking for much more than what is offered (it seems to me) would run the risk of RED no longer being a profitable business, which (again) would not be good for a RED customer. If they ain't making money, then they ain't staying in business and your camera becomes obsolete.

The way I look at it, RED has said... "hey guys... we have figured out a better way to move forward and more fully represent our mission statement of 'obsolescence obsolete' with a truly modular system that allows you to move up and down the line of products fluidly and allows you to move forward with us (without having to buy a completely new camera every few years) as our technology advances. You can certainly stick with what you've got, b/c it's a more than capable system and we will continue to support it, and continue to offer upgrades, including sensor upgrades. Or, you can give it back to us, and we will give you 100% of the dollars you put into our company to move into our new system of complete modularity."

Again, anything beyond what they are offering to their original RED One customers begins to run the risk of being counterproductive and would only serve to help ensure that you as a RED One customer would become obsolete.

I've not read any other real alternatives. The only concerns/gripes/complaints I've read so far, have only had implied solutions that would not serve the RED One customer as well as the above does in the long term.

RED One didn't get to the "obsolescence obsolete". The customers are still very much a part of that mission statement. The mission statement of "obsolescence obsolete" is not a RED One thing. It's a RED thing. It's a company wide thing. If it were just a RED One thing, it wouldn't really be obsolescence obsolete. It would be a death null (in my opinion) for RED as they would be crippling themselves from making advances at the pace that they are attempting, other companies would be allowed to "catch up" or offer other solutions that begin to compete on price/feature set. RED customers may begin to move away to those other solutions. RED goes away.... Keep it in perspective.

Build the cameras. :)

RED One was the first attempt. The DSMC systems are a big step in the direction of the mission statement that everyone is talking about here. The RED One customer has so many options it's ridiculous... Did you think that you would spend 17.5K once and never have to spend another dime, or what?

Imagine if a car company said "here buy this car, and in 3 years, you can give it back to us, and we will give you your full original purchase price towards the purchase of a new car".... Holy shit, is all I have to say... I begin to question the profitability of this choice that RED is giving to their customers.

Later,
Jason

[Don King]

Please stop it..you're only embarrassing yourself and irritating everyone here.
Speak for yourself. You do not represent the majority, silent majority by the way.

[Gordon Prince]

I agree. You fanboys suck. Luis is right.

[Jason Ramsey]

<mod cap>

no need for rudeness and disrespect.

We're talking about cameras. Folks don't need to get so worked up to the point of being disrespectful to each other. If you can't discuss things in a rational manner, please stop wasting bandwidth :)

</mod cap>

later,
Jason

[Meryem Ersoz]

Why doesn't everyone just shut up, sit down, and wait to see what the Dec. 3 announcement brings? This is RED time. Big breakthroughs, sudden changes.

You're dealing with the only company on the planet where the CEO listens directly to the buyers. And then exceeds expectations delivering the goods. Trust the process.

[david farland]

Speak for yourself. You do not represent the majority, silent majority by the way.

Yup, I was going by the weight of replies from members/Red....but hey, neither do you by the way!
D

Posts: 1,080p......do I get a little plaque?

[FMG battery]

hey there.. can anyone send him a check please?..



Posts: 1,080p......do I get a little plaque?

[david farland]

Posts: 1,080p......do I get a little plaque?

1,081...never mind

[Roberto B]

stop it.. or when you'll receive the check, it will be outdated..

[Steve Sherrick]

stop it.. or when you'll receive the check, it will be outdated..

This is like spending Thanksgiving with a dysfunctional family. :biggrin:

Where's the love? :love:

Jim will tell me what I need to know on the 3rd. If things have changed, I'll plan accordingly. Until then, must keep shooting RED as much as possible. Still so much more to learn.

[Luis Otero]

Luis, Luis, Luis.....

Reading this thread....
I feel sad you're turned Jim into 'whatever' YOU want...to obtain what you want...!
Good luck with you patently obvious manipulation of a guy and what he offered, to get whatever you can.

And all under the guise of co-business man, friend & moralist.

If you strip all that fluff away, what do you get...?
A guy shameless demanding everything in the world he can....

Please stop it..you're only embarrassing yourself and irritating everyone here.
Well may you say happy thanks giving Luis.
Dave,

ps: Luis, you sound like you are an okay fella...have a step back, take a walk and forget your present agenda. That might take a week. Appraise it all again. Jim may sometimes add his own spin to things and that in itself can confuse people. But i think you've a little bit skewed with you're demands here...Dave


Dave,

Please, no insults. We are adults and can communicate without an attitude. So please, refrain from trying to impose your positions by insulting; it does not work with me at all!!! I always have noticed that this is a clear pattern with your postings.

1. There are many other people asking for the same path. Just read other postings in this and other Threads.

2. Mood swings? If so, I also recommend you to write a response, keep it without send it for at least half a day, and then revisit what you wrote.

3. I admire Jim and his ingenuity very much. He was my "model" when I was completing my Doctorate in Business Administration. If the PS part of my posting bothers you so much, I can remove it and send it directly to him, or via Jarred. Would that make you feel at ease? I really hope so... Please let me know so I can proceed with the removal. You see, I can negotiate without manipulation.

BTW, I am a centered person; I do not need to manipulate, just communicate. So I do not fell an ounce of embarrassment since I write what I feel in a courteous manner, trying to convey a message.

3. It seems that you are the only irritated, so do not try to sale your position as the way the entire forum members feel; that is kind of childish. Posting #120 of this thread, authored by Mr. King says it in a way I could not do it: "Speak for yourself. You do not represent the majority, silent majority by the way." Also Gordon said it right on his posting #121.

BTW, thanks Gordon for your willingness to speak your mind without feel intimidated by bullies.

4. I had an excellent Thanks Giving day! Actually, I gave thanks for many things, specially for my wife and "kids", and also gave thanks for the opportunity to be part of this project from the get-go since I have grown as a business person, as well as an artist.

5. I do not have an agenda. To have one, you must have a position (which can be changed as many times as the puppeteer wants). I do have a standing, which uses the reasoning to deal with areas that I feel I can negotiate, not manipulate. If you do not like it, please do not read them since your reactions can trigger an ulcer, and also makes me feel insulted, which I do not appreciate at all. Again: "Speak for yourself. You do not represent the majority, silent majority by the way."

6- To feel and write what I have written I do not need to hear from you that you have an opinion that "you sound like you are an okay fella..." I am not a kid, David. I am intellectually mature enough not to depend on others' opinion to feel good with me, myself and I.

7- We are not defined by the number of postings, as you tried to manipulate on posting #124. We are perceived, analyzed and respected by the quality of our postings, and how much they add to this cyber-community.

BTW, congratulations to achieve the 1080p, David!!! Oh, sorry, 1081... I can start an account to collect the monies, as suggested in post #125 by FMG battery. I promise not to pull a "scam", like the Red One. Oh, I miss those days of brotherly love felt on this forum to support the "scam"!!!. Mine is now numbered 711, so I intend that a Seven 11 Station will always be shown briefly on all my narratives, shorts or features if I am lucky enough).

I sincerely hope you had a great day too!

Respectfully,

[Luis Otero]

Oh, look, 3rd in a re-arrangement of R3D!!! Good Karma, I think.:shiftyph34r:

What will be re-arranged? Hey, I do not believe in coincidences...:bleh:

[Jannard]

Luis,

It sounds like you are ahead of me in the education department. I am a USC School of Pharmacy dropout. But I have built two businesses from scratch. The 1st one from $300 in my garage that now employs over 3,000 people worldwide. RED is the second.

I realized a long time ago that as hard as I tried, I could never make everyone happy. There were always one or two percent of the people that I just agreed to disagree with. I also know that if I tried to satisfy those last two percent, it would be to the detriment of the business and all the employees that count on a paycheck. In times like these, this is no small issue.

As much as we interact with and listen to our customers... more than any company in just about any industry, this is a benevolent dictatorship. It is not a democracy. Our customers know what they want. They don't always agree, but each opinion that is given with good intent is considered. Many of the changes to the RED program are a testament to that. But.

Our customers do not know the inner workings of our company. They do not know our costs, be they development costs, BOM (bill of materials), overhead, etc. Companies do not stay in business by losing money. Since it is not ever likely that we will share this information, it is up to us to decide what we can and can't do for our customers. If we do a good job, they stay. If we don't, they buy from someone else.

We do not "negotiate" with our customers. We listen carefully, weigh all factors and make our best judgment calls all things considered. That includes customer satisfaction and the financial health of our business. Neither one can be had at the expense of the other.

I have paid close attention to everyone's opinion, including yours. I have listened to the reasonable and the unreasonable (usually uninformed in my estimation) from RED employees and customers. I have to decide what we will do. I sincerely hope that our customers will place themselves in our position (and up against what the rest of the industry does) while forming an opinion of our performance. We certainly place ourselves in the customer's shoes more than you would ever realize.

These are exciting times for RED, our customers and the whole industry. I am anxious to hear the response to our Dec. 3rd announcement.

My best,

Jim

[Luis Otero]

Luis,

...I have paid close attention to everyone's opinion, including yours. I have listened to the reasonable and the unreasonable (usually uninformed in my estimation) from RED employees and customers. I have to decide what we will do. I sincerely hope that our customers will place themselves in our position (and up against what the rest of the industry does) while forming an opinion of our performance. We certainly place ourselves in the customer's shoes more than you would ever realize.

These are exciting times for RED, our customers and the whole industry. I am anxious to hear the response to our Dec. 3rd announcement.

My best,

Jim

Jim,

As I said before, I used Red Co. and your strategy as my "model" at one point, and I highly respect you and your courage and determination: heck, I have the product of your hard work! It is called #711 - Dr. Red. Well, I also have sunglasses from the first business too!

Your words speak louder that insults and innuendoes (call it Mr. Farland), so they are greatly appreciated by all of us. And I think I am speaking for more people that own a Red One than one think.

Your commitment toward us, which includes hearing from the customer base, is remarkable. So, I rest in peace (no, I am not in bed waiting for the black angel) and trust your judgement on the hard balancing act of dealing with the business needs, unknown by the customers, and the fact of the implications of what they are asking for.

I apologize if I used the word negotiation. My wrong... but I was just trying to encourage people to understand that this forum is an avenue of advancing our thoughts, so we should use it effectively, and negotiation came to mind.

Actually, I think that I really know how much you place yourselves in the customer's shoes. That is why you have been successful on this and other endeavors.

Thanks for posting this refreshing and well thought words. And thanks for continue to analize all points of view before making the final decision. So, "don't be mad, be glad" during this decision making process.

And yes, we will rally the 3rd (or R3D?) as we did the 13th; we are very anxious to know!

Warm regards,

[david farland]

Whoa ...did I hit a sore point!!
I don't fluff round Luis and I don't sugar coat insults.

I've seen requests like yours and others, rise to such a level where the communication is broken between Redusers and Red e.g. Jim's last sabbatical because he had too much of unreasonable requests! And i'd be pissed off too...

If I think you persistantly ask for too much in a relentess fashion that is opposed to what I feel...I'll say it.
As it doesn't represent what I feel is a reasonable request and becomes a pointless argument to the level that it's detrimental to the free exchange of reasonable requests or to the point Red shut down... it affects me...I'll call it for what it is and how it's delivered.

....particularly when it's all boiled down it simply sounds like a 5 year old asking for something he shouldn't or ain't gonna get.

It goes something like....

L: I want a lot for free
R: You can't have it
L: You promised
R: No we didn't
L: yes you did
etc.....

phewie......as I said, I think the constant request is boring, unreasonable and has a good chance of pissing off & closing down the old guy.

But most importantly, I think it's wrong....so I'll say that.

And if you disagree, great....you'r welcome.
I just don't take your stance one bit...I care for reasonable requests, it's when the unreasonable ones become all pervasive that the Reduser/Red communication closes down and that concerns me very much and is the reason for any 'strong' stance on your constant broaches for these freebies.
All I've heard you say is your RedOne should be a $17K gold credit to spend on whatever you feel whenever you like...for some reason?
But I feel your request and premise is unreasonable and I guess others (& Jim) do to.
But as we know it's Jim's business to structure deals on Red kit.
I can't possibly understand the inner structure/strategies of Red and it's marketing policies.
There's too interwoven/complex for me (as an outsider)to attempt to get in there with a screw driver.
But I will point out where I think there maybe flaws and my position on all this is....I believe Jim's made one 'smallish' omission in his last announcement......and that was not to have a subsidised trade-in for the Epic S35 to the FF35. Comments?

Dave

[András Puiz]

If you deliver something that you truly feel is quite something and way ahead of anyone else, it feels really frustrating if some clueless whiners demand more. Yeah, let the first thousand customers trade in their Ones for Scarlets. And let the first 772 customers get Scarlets for free. That will make everyone happy... Until someone with a serial number below 99 demands a pony and the Golden Gate bridge.

And excuse me, but the idea that first customers are the biggest advertisement and should thus be rewarded is plain laughable. Guess what, if the product is great, all of its customers will be great advertisements. It's part of the strategy. It's included in the price, if you will. I own some Macs, and no month passes by without me turning someone into an Apple customer without trying at all. I even joke around saying that I should get a commission from Apple.

Apparently, some people are saying the same about RED and they're serious.

Hell, I'm not even a RED customer yet (waiting for the Cheap-O-Scarlet to go on sale some time in the distant future), but I'm already annoyed by this attitude of entitlement.

Yeah, I have zero posts, and I'm not even a cinematographer, so I should probably shut up. But I can call bad attitude without those credentials as well. Peace out.

[Josué Ignacio Saldaña]

...worldwide. RED is the second.
My best,
Jim

I remember when I first heard about Red in school... "from the dude that makes Oaks..." times where so frustrating because of the relative low quality one can get back for their $. But as soon as I realized RED was around, I formed an LLC (to spend half the money than otherwise would have been needed) and worked my wife and I worked our butts off alswyas aiming to get the camera debt free. Red hadn't even begun shipping yet. So bamb! we came up with the downpayment and almost a year later, we have the RED. Now it is up to us to turn it into something else... i.e. more REDs. Not to say that some people here are not reputable cinematographers, but if you have a RED and are happy with it... getting more than what you initially purchased... .... .... .... ... ... ... .... I don't get it man! I didn't finish my Business Admin degree w/ UMUC, but am on my second business start-up (can't say I employee 3k peoples, but 12 is a major headache for me). If I am as clear as RED was with me with one of my customers, and they buy it and then I turn around and deliver so much more to the point that this customer is up at 3 a.m. ohhhhin and aaaahhhhhhhhing... then a year later when I am ready to take my work to the next level then all I get is :ranting2: WOW... it blows my mind.... the whole reason why so many of us have the opportunity to even say without any regrets I am a cinematographer is because we are in the pocession of a RED1; why would I want this company to slow down. Even if they create things that go far above and beyond my reach (617 as a prime example) why would I try to cripple them with my words just because I can't get one... or don't see myself involved in a project of that magnitude; however, if the day ever came and I am involved in one then I know where to get one. I am happy with the RED1 and I am very happy with the new line ups as well.... I drool on the screen with the renders, even though I am not reaching for one financially.... but it makes me proud... kinda of like seeing someone you really respect and thank move up in life... YEAH MAN... GO ON!!!!!!!!!!

Josue

p.s. I need the Adobe plug-in :weight_lift: baaaadly

[Luis Otero]

Whoa ...did I hit a sore point!!
...I don't fluff round Luis and I don't sugar coat insults.

Dave

Dave,

I will not glorify your non-value added postings and insults any more. I already received a message from Jim, which by the way, is a very professional and encouraging one, as he always responds to non-obnoxious questions, complains or individuals.

He clearly understands and acknowledges the underlining request, and is not searching and reading between lines fictitious claims made by you, such as "you want a free camera?"

Have a great life and a bright future with your Red One, or any upgrade you decide to do in the future.

Respectfully,

[Jarred Land]

play nice kids...

[Luis Otero]

play nice kids...

Yes sir...:bleh:

Still owe you a beer, but I am frozen her in Iowa so I cant leave the house...:cold: Cannot wait to move back to Orlando, FL, or better, to Thousand Oaks, CA,,,

Regards!

[Jason Ramsey]

play nice kids...

glad they listen to you :) I'm sitting here changing usernames, I could accidentally hit the ban button a couple of times... :devil:

later,
Jason

[Luis Otero]

glad they listen to you :)

later,
Jason

Jason,

Yep, I am glad too, but not surprised. They, Jim and Jarred, always have paid attention to any customer with a reasonable rationale to support the request. Sure, the delivery is as important as the rationale; being rude and obnoxious (like some examples on this thread) will not take you far with them, or anybody, if you know what I mean. :mail1:

Cheers!

Luis

[Luis Otero]

I'm sitting here changing usernames, I could accidentally hit the ban button a couple of times... :devil:

later,
Jason

Jason,

Just between us, can I send you a list of names?:bleh: :shifty:

Soon,

[Gregory Karydis]

Guys rest your sphincters.
You have turned a number of people off already, I trust it would be civil to pursue a resolution in private.
This thread has already been derailed dramatically.
Let's not give Jarred a reason to lock it before the 3rd.

EDIT:

Jason,

Just between us, can I send you a list of names?:bleh: :shifty:

Soon,Why, you don't like your current name?:bleh:

So I bet Jim will announce they managed to trim the weight to half and increase the dynamic range a few points.
Oh, and there must be a new upgrade for the current One model.
Can't wait till Wednesday!

Oh, and the Scarlet will have an add-on to run on peanuts.
Literally, peanuts. It's called PeanutDrive and it can keep your scarlet running for 35 minutes with only a handfull.

[Luis Otero]

Guys rest your sphincters.
You have turned a number of people off already, I trust it would be civil to pursue a resolution in private.
This thread has already been derailed dramatically.
Let's not give Jarred a reason to lock it before the 3rd.

EDIT:
Why, you don't like your current name?

Greg,

I hereby promise not to do it anymore (unless the insults are really offensive). :innocent:

Joke aside, I agree with bringing this back to its original intent, and apologize to the colleagues that were not either entertained or turned off by anything I may have wrritten.

Respectfully,

[david farland]

Amen......

and bringing it back tothe original topic...
1. Will R1 be able to be upgraded to Monstro....Yes
2. Can Luis get a $17K credit on any future Red product..I hope so!
(but I suspect it'll be via ebay).
3. Will Red be tweaking their upgrade policies. Hope so too...wait till 3rd??

Peace

[FMG battery]

I admire Jim and his ingenuity very much.you know.. we are 99% here with you.. but.. let us post a good good laugh.. :) :) :biggrin:


He was my "model" when I was completing my Doctorate in Business Administration.now seriously.. nice to know.

[Luis Otero]

you know.. we are 99% here with you.. but.. let us post a good good laugh.. :) :) :biggrin:

It is shame that English is not my main language. In Spanish I have so many good jokes that sometimes I venture to try to translate them for the anglo community. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. I will see if I can pull some of them once they are relevant to the subject matter so we ALL can post good laugh too...!!!

Thanks for bringing back a refreshing posting since we need it badly.:bleh:

Cheers,

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Are we done?

...Yep.