Lens Mounts for Epic

[Mark Pedersen]

Red team,

Maybe I've missed a thread somewhere, but can you clarify how the interchangeable lens mounts work with Epic Bodies?

It appears that the FF35 and 645 ship with a new "Red Mount," while the S35 is configured with a PL mount. Is that the case, or will all bodies ship without a mount, and you then order the mount(s) you want?

Is the Red Mount a universal body mount that accepts different lens adapters (like the PS+Technik system)?

In other words, if you want to use PL glass on an FF35 or 645, do you have to order a PL lens adapter that then mounts to the Red Mount? Same for a Canon or Nikon mount? Or does the Red mount accept Canon, Nikon and Red lenses without any adapters?

Bottom line, I want to be able to use PL glass on an FF35 or 645 and want to know how that will work.

Thanks for clarifying.

M

[Jannard]

We posted a pic somewhere in this forum of the "mount module". Four bolts and it is off (or on). Backfocus is done at the sensor. So, you buy a PL mount module or a RED mount module... or, you get the picture. Since each lens type has a different BFL distance, we account for that in the mounts, which are precision machined. Lens mount change takes about one minute.

Jim

[Mark Pugh]

Backfocus is done at the sensor.
Jim

That Backfocus will be adjustable in the field?

[Jannard]

That Backfocus will be adjustable in the field?

Of course... nice avatar :-)

Jim

[Douglas Underdahl]

Makes sense to me, 4 bolts and swap. Note that the bolts are on the outside of the mount so they can be larger socket head type and not have flat heads and be less likely to strip. Also, this makes for a very compact set up.

If you were to design an interchangeable type mount, then you have something that might be a bit faster, but larger, more complicated, and more expensive. Also, with an interchangeable mount system, every lens has two mounts, so there is more opportunity for something to go wrong. I know a number of cinematographers who have shot with lens adapters between lens and camera and had problems and swore they never would again.

Now, how do those modules snap together?

[Pawel Achtel]

We posted a pic somewhere in this forum of the "mount module". Four bolts and it is off (or on). Backfocus is done at the sensor. So, you buy a PL mount module or a RED mount module... or, you get the picture. Since each lens type has a different BFL distance, we account for that in the mounts, which are precision machined. Lens mount change takes about one minute.

Jim

Awesome!

[Sanjin Jukic]

We posted a pic somewhere in this forum of the "mount module". Four bolts and it is off (or on). Backfocus is done at the sensor. So, you buy a PL mount module or a RED mount module... or, you get the picture. Since each lens type has a different BFL distance, we account for that in the mounts, which are precision machined. Lens mount change takes about one minute.

Jim

Searching and looking at the forum for the picture of the RED Interchangeable mount.

Not found!!!

[Jannard]

You can see what's going on pretty clearly from the announcement page on the front of the "brains" and the explosion view...

Actually, scroll down and you can clearly see the mount on the "Interchangeable Everything" page.

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

You can see what's going on pretty clearly from the announcement page on the front of the "brains" and the explosion view...

Actually, scroll down and you can clearly see the mount on the "Interchangeable Everything" page.

Jim

Thanks Jim,

I've got it.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/RED_InterMount.jpg
RED Interchangeable Mount.

[Benjamin Rowland]

Of course... nice avatar :-)

Jim

What is the avatar from?

[Brook Willard]

How will the sensor move? Will it be shim-based or mounted on a helicoid of sorts?

You know my fears: shifting collimation, sensor not square to the mount, low resolution helicoid, weak and thermally unstable metals, metal-on-metal wear, etc. While the RED ONE's current lens mount is "good enough" to get the job done, it still leaves a lot to be desired by a perfectionist like me.

The original lens mount did have its issues - it was weak aluminum, the torque specs were too low on the screws that held it in place, the throat was too tight for Century lenses, the collar was wretched and the whole mount was thermally unstable. With that in mind, the biggest issues I ever ran into on set was with cameras that shipped from the factory with as many as a dozen shims in place... having been collimated with a 65mm prime at about 10 feet. Invariably, the weight of an unsupported lens would flex the shims out of place and the mount would go loose. That said, when the mount was honed out and routed for lens compatibility... and it was recollimated with standard shims... it was pretty solid.

The current RED ONE mount is a good idea - it solved many of the problems that the original mount suffered from the factory. It also enables those without access to collimators - it's one of the reasons the camera is able to function so well out of production-heavy cities.

But as good as the upsides to the mount are, the sensor is permanently out of square to the mount, the collimation is thermally unstable and adjusting the mount can be something akin to a crapshoot at times. Don't get me wrong - there's always a way to get everything to tape out. It works, as evidenced by thousands of RED productions. I just feel like it could be better.

So that's why the thought of a moving sensor scares the bejeezus out of me. We're talking about the hottest piece of silicon in the entire camera on an adjustable mount. I see risks of thermal instability, sensor shifting [X, Y and Z], accidental slippage, vibration sensitivity, lubricant near parts that I don't want lubricant by, etc. Hell, when all of the dust that's normally visible against the sensor in the lens mount no longer has that wall go keep it from getting "behind" the sensor, where's it going to end up? Behind the sensor, gumming up the lubricant and sneaking into the cracks in between the finely tuned sensor moving system. How will we get back there to clean it out? Relubricate it? Etc.

I'm not trying to get people worried, I'm just a little concerned about how it's going to work in practice. I know you guys have some tricks up for your sleeve for this one... care to share?

[FMG battery]

What is the avatar from?how many of you will post about that avatar?.. Mr Jannard.. you should charge for your comments.. they eat each word.. ehehehehehe

[Evin Grant]

how many of you will post about that avatar?.. Mr Jannard.. you should charge for your comments.. they eat each word.. ehehehehehe

It's really not that hard to figure out if you look at it long enough.

Although I share most of Brook's concern over the stability of the "sensor shift" system I will say that my Red One's mount was properly collimated 6 months ago and hasn't needed adjusting since then despite a few flights across the country and world and probably 50+ shooting days. My biggest gripe is that the mount (or sensor) seems to be ever so slightly off center and so zooms track ever so slightly up and to the right. This is a measurbating thing you'll never see in real footage.

I think given there price point the Epics need a truly bullet proof solution to collimation. Especially with larger sensors and 6K or 9K resolution.

[Jannard]

How will the sensor move? Will it be shim-based or mounted on a helicoid of sorts?

You know my fears: shifting collimation, sensor not square to the mount, low resolution helicoid, weak and thermally unstable metals, metal-on-metal wear, etc. While the RED ONE's current lens mount is "good enough" to get the job done, it still leaves a lot to be desired by a perfectionist like me.

The original lens mount did have its issues - it was weak aluminum, the torque specs were too low on the screws that held it in place, the throat was too tight for Century lenses, the collar was wretched and the whole mount was thermally unstable. With that in mind, the biggest issues I ever ran into on set was with cameras that shipped from the factory with as many as a dozen shims in place... having been collimated with a 65mm prime at about 10 feet. Invariably, the weight of an unsupported lens would flex the shims out of place and the mount would go loose. That said, when the mount was honed out and routed for lens compatibility... and it was recollimated with standard shims... it was pretty solid.

The current RED ONE mount is a good idea - it solved many of the problems that the original mount suffered from the factory. It also enables those without access to collimators - it's one of the reasons the camera is able to function so well out of production-heavy cities.

But as good as the upsides to the mount are, the sensor is permanently out of square to the mount, the collimation is thermally unstable and adjusting the mount can be something akin to a crapshoot at times. Don't get me wrong - there's always a way to get everything to tape out. It works, as evidenced by thousands of RED productions. I just feel like it could be better.

So that's why the thought of a moving sensor scares the bejeezus out of me. We're talking about the hottest piece of silicon in the entire camera on an adjustable mount. I see risks of thermal instability, sensor shifting [X, Y and Z], accidental slippage, vibration sensitivity, lubricant near parts that I don't want lubricant by, etc. Hell, when all of the dust that's normally visible against the sensor in the lens mount no longer has that wall go keep it from getting "behind" the sensor, where's it going to end up? Behind the sensor, gumming up the lubricant and sneaking into the cracks in between the finely tuned sensor moving system. How will we get back there to clean it out? Relubricate it? Etc.

I'm not trying to get people worried, I'm just a little concerned about how it's going to work in practice. I know you guys have some tricks up for your sleeve for this one... care to share?

People worry about everything... why not wait until you see how it works before you get worked up?

It appears that we have a track record of making things better... not worse.

Jim

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

Sounds scary to me. We had to adjust backfocus twice in the field on my last feature....not an easy or quick procedure to do in the field.
BTW havent had one single glitch with the camera in 7 weeks of shooting. Lots of handheld, in car, car process, camera shaking,ect. Shooting with drives only...not one single dropped frame. Only had two minor things: "Recording error", just pressed the button again 2 seconds after and it worked.
Shot the period parts(1/3) of the film on S35mm. Surprisingly slower to work on film. my guess is 1/2hr each day with a camera crew of 3(Focus puller, loader, video assist)

Best
JJ

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

It appears that we have a track record of making things better... not worse.

Jim[/QUOTE]
True...

[Brook Willard]

People worry about everything... why not wait until you see how it works before you get worked up?

It appears that we have a track record of making things better... not worse.

Jim

As I said in my post, I wasn't trying to incite fears. I also stated that you guys have made things better [the new lens mount], so I agree with you there as well. I'm just curious about how you're going to make this part of the equation work... particularly considering the long list of potential engineering and real-world usage difficulties. Nobody's worked up, I'm merely interested in your solution to these currently existing and potential future dilemmas.

[zak forrest]

Also can you tell us how Mysterium + Redcode work ?

[Mark Pedersen]

We posted a pic somewhere in this forum of the "mount module". Four bolts and it is off (or on). Backfocus is done at the sensor. So, you buy a PL mount module or a RED mount module... or, you get the picture. Since each lens type has a different BFL distance, we account for that in the mounts, which are precision machined. Lens mount change takes about one minute.

Jim

OK, makes sense. In the original Nov 13th Epic/Scarlet Brochure (JPEG) with all the camera options, you listed different mounts on the bodies, and the Red Mount on the FF35 looks smaller than the Red Mount on the 645 so it is a bit confusing. Plus there was no information on the Red Mount.

So just to be totally clear, the FF35 Epic will accept a PL mount module and you order each mount separately from the camera body, right?

Can you explain what the Red mount is for then? If Red lenses are PL mount, why would you build a proprietary mount? I assume there must be some intrinsic value....

On the subject of backfocus adjustment, will there be pre-set settings or a standard calibration method to adjust back focus in the field?

M

[Jannard]

RED mounts are not PL mounts. No reason to duplicate a PL mount with a different name. The RED mount would be the equivalent to a Canon or Nikon mount for RED lenses.

If you are lucky, you can change mounts with no calibration of back-focus... like a RED ONE now. If it is needed, it should be very slight. Instead of the mount being adjustable, the sensor block is. It is really slick and solid.

If you own a Scarlet S35 brain and an EPIC S35 brain and use PL mounts, you will need one for each body.

Jim

[Jannard]

Also can you tell us how Mysterium + Redcode work ?

No. :-)

Jim

[Mitch Gross]

May I humbly suggest moving from 4 bolts on the mount to six? My fear would be in keeping planarity consistent as the mounts were repeatedly swapped in the field. A three-legged table will always have all the feet hit the floor. A four-legged table will always have at least one foot NOT hitting the grown unless extreme precision is used. Not that RED couldn't build a mount with extreme precision, but that mount could suffer a lot of abuse out in the field (the things I've seen...).

Four points means the geometry of the mount is a square. Six points is a pair of inverted triangles, like a Jewish star. Far more stability and sustainable planarity in that geometry. Many lens mounts use six or even better eight points of contact.

[Jannard]

May I humbly suggest moving from 4 bolts on the mount to six? My fear would be in keeping planarity consistent as the mounts were repeatedly swapped in the field. A three-legged table will always have all the feet hit the floor. A four-legged table will always have at least one foot NOT hitting the grown unless extreme precision is used. Not that RED couldn't build a mount with extreme precision, but that mount could suffer a lot of abuse out in the field (the things I've seen...).

Four points means the geometry of the mount is a square. Six points is a pair of inverted triangles, like a Jewish star. Far more stability and sustainable planarity in that geometry. Many lens mounts use six or even better eight points of contact.

Our mounts have passed every tests we have thrown at them... more stable than the RED ONE mount. A table rests on its legs. A mount rests on its surfaces...

Jim

[Mitch Gross]

Fair enough. I make no judgements until actually testing a finished product.

[Mark Pedersen]

RED mounts are not PL mounts. No reason to duplicate a PL mount with a different name. The RED mount would be the equivalent to a Canon or Nikon mount for RED lenses.

If you are lucky, you can change mounts with no calibration of back-focus... like a RED ONE now. If it is needed, it should be very slight. Instead of the mount being adjustable, the sensor block is. It is really slick and solid.

If you own a Scarlet S35 brain and an EPIC S35 brain and use PL mounts, you will need one for each body.

Jim

Got it. I can see that they are not PL mounts from the images.

But you didn't really answer my question... Can I use a PL mount on an Epic FF35? It shows a Red Mount, and lists it in the specs, not PL. Does it come with a Red mount, and then I have to order a separate PL? Or does it come with no mount and I choose one or the other?

And if the Red Mount is just for Red lenses, does it give us something of value over a standard PL mount?

In other words, if I have PL mount lenses and Red lenses (which are PL), is there any reason why I would want to use the Red Mount with say, an 18-85 or your primes?

I guess I'm wondering why you'd bother to make your own mount if your lenses are all PL compatible. There must be something special about them right??

Is the Red mount compatible with Red, Nikon & Canon?

M

[Jannard]

You can order any mount you want. The RED mount is a proprietary mount that works with RED lenses for full frame 35mm stills. It is an auto-focus, image stabilized program. Much like a stills Canon or Nikon lens program. Different than the RED PL mount series lenses that include the 18-85mm zoom.

Jim

[Jason Ing]

You can order any mount you want. The RED mount is a proprietary mount that works with RED lenses for full frame 35mm stills. It is an auto-focus, image stabilized program. Much like a stills Canon or Nikon lens program. Different than the RED PL mount series lenses that include the 18-85mm zoom.

Jim

Can I put this on my Red One? Or should I say, will I be able to use the Red lenses to their full potential on my Red One?

[Jannard]

Can I put this on my Red One? Or should I say, will I be able to use the Red lenses to their full potential on my Red One?

The RED ONE sensor is not large enough to fully use the RED mount lenses. But they can be used the same as a Nikon or Canon lens.

Jim

[Jason Ing]

got it. thanks.

[Mark Pedersen]

You can order any mount you want. The RED mount is a proprietary mount that works with RED lenses for full frame 35mm stills. It is an auto-focus, image stabilized program. Much like a stills Canon or Nikon lens program. Different than the RED PL mount series lenses that include the 18-85mm zoom.

Jim

Jim,

OK. That makes total sense. I guess that means you'll be producing still lenses! :) Didn't know that. You are one amazing entrepreneur!

Now I hate be be a friggin' nag, but please answer this one simple question, yes or no... can you use a PL mount on a Epic FF35 brain?

The answer will tell me which Epic to order :)

Thanks!

M

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

So we will have a sensor block movement with micro motors to auto/manual adjust the back focus?

This reminds me, another camera designer... I thing he has patent this...

Its a great idea, thought.

Mitch, Jim, I would suggest to change the screws that will hold the mount from hexagon plain black metal to stainless steel Torx because is very difficult to damage them...

[Chris Newman]

Now I hate be be a friggin' nag, but please answer this one simple question, yes or no... can you use a PL mount on a Epic FF35 brain?
The specs pages list PL mount as working with the FF35 brains, but there will likely be vignetting, so you will have to crop to the center S35 of the sensor.

[Brook Willard]

Mark, they have confirmed that you'll be able to put a PL mount on the FF35 and 645 brains and shoot in a "cropped" mode for 3-perf or 4-perf super 35mm.

[Eric Ulbrich]

Speaking of all these mounting changes. Jim you have posted that you might need a small amount of BF tweaking in the field to switch mounts. As someone who would be a first time buyer of RED specifically the FF35 Epic, would RED ever consider creating a field Collimator for the camera? If not can anyone recommend an option to take a look at? I think being able to do a field check could help to alleviate some of these worries.

[Brook Willard]

Eric, considering how dramatic the new sensor/backfocus/collimation concept is, I'd imagine that RED has to have something up their sleeve for such things. Since we can't use a depth gauge on the camera and a sharpmax costs as much as the camera... there must be a different solution.

Using a wide prime and feeling it in is a little frustrating. If the sensor block moves on the camera, that means that there are three main solutions that I can think of:

1. The mount must be removed and a tool must be used to adjust the sensor depth. The mount would then be reinstalled and the collimation would be checked with a wide prime or collimator. That's miserable.

2. The mount would be installed and the sensor depth would be adjustable from a screw on the side of the camera body. Not terrible.

3. The sensor depth is somehow motorized and has preset and fine-tunable positions.

Granted there are many other options, but those are the three that yell out to me.

I still hold many concerns about the concept, but I won't get worried until I actually have some details to work with. So ultimately, any discussion of how to collimate the camera is pure speculation at this point.

In other words, I'd imagine that RED has something up their sleeve as a solution for us.

[Mark Pedersen]

Mark, they have confirmed that you'll be able to put a PL mount on the FF35 and 645 brains and shoot in a "cropped" mode for 3-perf or 4-perf super 35mm.

Brook,

Thanks. I hadn't seen that confirmed anywhere. With so many places to post comments on Epic, and not enough time to rummage through every post, it can be challenging.

Cheers,
M

[Mark Pedersen]

3. The sensor depth is somehow motorized and has preset and fine-tunable positions.



That's what I was also asking about in my earlier post... is there something planned that will make field BF adjustments or at least pre-shoot bench calibration possible with electronic/mechanical pre-sets based on the mount being used?

Hope so.

M

[Brook Willard]

That's what I was also asking about in my earlier post... is there something planned that will make field BF adjustments or at least pre-shoot bench calibration possible with electronic/mechanical pre-sets based on the mount being used?

Hope so.

M

It'd sure be a nice system. Swapping mounts may take only a minute, but if collimation takes significant special equipment and time... it's no longer a viable production move.

[Mark Pedersen]

Yup. That would be the best bet.

BTW, everything they've announced is just plain awesome. But it's a LOT of new product to support. I just hope they staff up like crazy to deal with it all, including increased production and service demands, customer support etc. With as long as its taken to get new lenses out the door, I wonder how long it's going to be before we see all of this new glass and gear shipping, bugs worked out, etc.

Meanwhile, I'm keeping the faith, salivating at the possibilities and hating the wait ;)

M

[JanneJansson]

That's what I was also asking about in my earlier post... is there something planned that will make field BF adjustments or at least pre-shoot bench calibration possible with electronic/mechanical pre-sets based on the mount being used?

Hope so.

M


This sounds like cool technology. Auto-focus INSIDE the camera :)

[Eric Ulbrich]

It'd sure be a nice system. Swapping mounts may take only a minute, but if collimation takes significant special equipment and time... it's no longer a viable production move.

I hear that. I worked on a cinealta feature a few years back. The 1st AC for both camera units each carried a field collimator and calibrated through the day. It must have driven them nuts

[Michael Hastings]

If it could move in the x-y axis as well, like the sony dslrs, you would have internal image stabilization or for special effects an explosion shake button.

By the way, if you have never seen the sony IS where they actually move the sensor it is amazing to watch, they had a demo at one of the circuit city stores and I was astounded at how far and how fast the sensor moved.

I'm sure there is a youtube somewhere.

[fde101]

I was astounded at how far and how fast the sensor moved.


This surprises me for a different reason. It means that the lens will need to cover a much larger area than it would have to if the sensor didn't move. So if you are applying this to an APS-C / S35 sensor, for example, you might need lenses that cover FF35...

[Francis Demarco]

I hear that. I worked on a cinealta feature a few years back. The 1st AC for both camera units each carried a field collimator and calibrated through the day. It must have driven them nuts

It's pretty impossible to change the lens mount on a set... That has to be done by a camera specialist who knows how to do it and can set the back focus well.
Interchangeable mount is probably a good idea for Scarlet. I don't see the real need for interchangeable mount on the Epic S35. Because of it's price level, that camera is going to be owned mostly by rental houses, these people have plenty of PL mount optics. I would suggest to make the Epic S35 PL mount only and have the mount very robust, a steel mount would be nice.
The Epic FF35 sensor seems to be as large as the Dalsa Origin sensor. I think Dalsa modified some Leica prime lenses for getting a full image on their sensor. I'm not sure the type of mount they use on the camera.

[Mitch Gross]

Dalsa uses (soon used) a PL mount. They designed some lenses to cover the full image area of their sensor, which while larger than Super-35 was still considerably smaller than FF35 (which will forever be known to me as VistaVision).