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View Full Version : If Color can open R3d files, why do i need Scratch?



Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
11-23-2008, 04:00 PM
This is the question i´ve been thinking today.
Scratch is great and i´m very happy with it. BUt today i tested the new FCP-Color workflow and the experience was quite good. I get more or less the same performance. And since most color correction tools are pretty similar, i can basically do the same things.

Now on one corner i have a $75k software that really works well with RED footage.
On the other corner i have a free program that does the same thing.

Am i missing something here? Why do i need Scratch?

Gunleik Groven
11-23-2008, 04:14 PM
This is the question i´ve been thinking today.
Scratch is great and i´m very happy with it. BUt today i tested the new FCP-Color workflow and the experience was quite good. I get more or less the same performance. And since most color correction tools are pretty similar, i can basically do the same things.

Now on one corner i have a $75k software that really works well with RED footage.
On the other corner i have a free program that does the same thing.

Am i missing something here? Why do i need Scratch?

Fun you should ask...
I've been thinking about the same thing today :)

Actually my biggest surprise was when I hit "play" in color, and the damned thing actually played realtime out. Without nVidea GFX and all :)
Wow. That was really one of those moments...

Scratch still has a couple of things going for it, though.

1. Consistency.
In my instance, the "RED room" behaves weird. It does seem to reset without actually the things in there being updated.
I had issues with files playing back the wrong clip (when sending proxies to Color)

2. Scaffolds
The ability to properly lock down a correction in the primary and do the rest in scaffolds + compositing with scaffolds is pretty neat.

3. Having access to the 4k source.
In Color, if I throw a 4k DPX sequence/QT mov on it, I would get a 2k crop from that movie. THEN I could choose to reframe based on that source.
NOT true with RED footage. True in Scratch. A big win for Scratch.

BUT
dare I say... I think the debayering looks better than Scratch...

No. I don't :)

And you have all the data-handling and stability of Scratch...

Also, I am not totally happy with how Color handles highlights/lowlights in "float" mode.

But is that unhappiness worth 75k $?? (wow, you got a better offer than me...)

Have to think!

In Scratch you can do 3D... :)

Gunleik
(Based on 30 minutes on playing around with the new Color)

Radoslav Karapetkov
11-23-2008, 04:18 PM
That is interesting to hear from experienced users with access to these kind of apps.

I was wondering, what is so special about those high-$$$ programs like Da Vinci, Scratch, etc.

What makes them better? The quality of the algorithms or what?

Just curious.

Cüneyt Kaya
11-23-2008, 04:21 PM
just read this...
Color/Final Touch - lots of heavy bugs and issues.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2825



scratch is really good...but way overpriced inmho for what it can do.
Certain features are missing.
other highend DI Tools are better...but they cost more.

once the red sdk allows debayering through 3rd parties the interest should decrease drasticly.

thinking of the lawsuit is not a plus on the selling side too (did autodesk ever lose?)..i wish assimilate all the best.

anyway...people who bought scratch last year should already have the ROI...they can still use it.


for the lowend...the fcs2 installer is a blessing. (It should have been there since day 1...would have avoided a lot of discussions)
For the High End guys it is still a valuable tool...but it is used in my experience just as conforming tool.
The CC is made in another App.



Now Color is free with FCS...and like Lucas said all the lowend people will use it. thats for sure.
COLOR gets now more attention...and some updates (i hope)




What is interesting to see for me is what will happen the next 24 months with assimilate
In my experience (here in Germany)...
1. the last 12 months the lowend guys needed something...assimilate had the possibility to give scratchcine away for 2000 USD....a lot of guys would have had just add scratchcine as part of the RED Package.
And they would still use it today.
Assimilate decided against it...so the lowend guys get furious.
2. The highend people just ignored scratch...a lot of them used crimson to get the DPX Files...or just treated red files like film negs...they rendered everything to DPX. and went on with their regular workflow...nothing special actually.
3. scratch was often used (in my experience and in my enviroment) for onlining/CC musicvideos


i am talking about highend in germany...so dont give me the soderbergh has a scratch argument please.
there are some really big posthouses here in Berlin...none of them use scratch.

Hans von Sonntag
11-23-2008, 04:56 PM
It depends on the colorist and on the budget.

If you have the budget let the colorist choose the system of hers/his choice. Every system has its streghts and weak spots.

I used FT aka Color for 3 years, over a year now I use SpeedGrade, purely for subjetive, artistic reasons. Others prefer Scratch, Baselight, Filmmaster - or Color.

If you don't have the budget you have to stick to Color. Its does a fine job. And don't forget to purchase Graeme Nattress excellent plugins - worth every penny.

Hans

Hans von Sonntag
11-23-2008, 05:08 PM
What I'm wondering is how many actually will use Color for real world projects.

My guess is that many will end up using Colorista in FCP or ColorFiness in Premier Pro because those tools are easy to handle and don't need the tedious conforming and roundtripping that all dedicated CC systems need. Plus I know from my own experience that learning to use a grading system and creating delicate results takes quite a while and is not easy to achieve.

So my question is bringing it a step further: How many will actually use the new Color despite the fact that it is dirt cheap and very capable?

Hans

mikeburton
11-23-2008, 05:23 PM
I think if the L&T tool just gave us a few more options to control Debayer settings, Resolution, and rcc/rsx files to load looks that this tool would be of better use to me right now. I personally don't like working with 2K proxy files that are system intensive. I don't mind conforming back to the native files from the offline ProResSQ files via Media Manager. That said, even in my offline i would still like to be able to import a one light and transcode to the settings I desire for my own particular editing workflow, ie . If I could combine RR and L&T together at this point that would be my ideal process for most workflow's using the RAW files in COLOR as a finish.

Great start though and I'm hoping that this workflow continues to improve and evolve.

Gunleik Groven
11-24-2008, 02:03 AM
So my question is bringing it a step further: How many will actually use the new Color despite the fact that it is dirt cheap and very capable?

Hans

My guess?

Depending on stability and bugs (which I am yet to determine) :
Quite a few.

Realtime playback in Color both from QT wrapped r3d's and proxy-dependant R3d's is quite a biggie I didn't really expect. But it actually works as well as anything.

There are bugs in how the RED room works, but I actually don't miss any controll in there. Just that it repeatably does what I ask it to and stays that way after I have done my choices.

I am also a bit unsure about the signal-chain and how highlights/lowlights are treated. Seems to me that there are at least 2 instances I'll stick to DPXs:

When noise is an issue
When I need to reframe.

It realy is not cool that you cannot reframe from the 3k/4k footage.
No real problem that the playout is 2k (here), but that the source is limitid to 2k is a real bummer for quite a few instances.

I do miss a "RAW geometry room" in the plugin, in addition to the Color geometry room.

But for about 90% of what I do, Color could easily be the ticket (if it actually works well. That remains to be seen...)

Compared to Scratch, I really miss the compositing functions, for incorporating motion graphics, sky-replacement, text overlays, keying etc.

But in general, this is a biggie, which hopefully don't end here.


Gunleik

Gunleik

Sanjin Jukic
11-24-2008, 02:13 AM
Now on one corner i have a $75k software that really works well with RED footage.
On the other corner i have a free program that does the same thing.

Am i missing something here? Why do i need Scratch?

For that $75K you spent for Scratch you could get three Arri/Zeiss Master Prime lenses of your choice that you could use in the next 20 years.

Bruce Allen
11-24-2008, 02:16 AM
Thinking the same thing, especially after my horrible experiences with REDCINE bugginess, lack of UI features and lack of responsiveness from the developers. I just had to write my first c++ program in 3 years to fix an issue - I decided it was easier to write a program fix it myself than wait for official REDCINE help.

If Scratch sucks 1/10th as much as REDCINE I'd rather go with Color.

EDIT: I'll wait until the next version though ;) See you in April!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 02:19 AM
If Scratch sucks 1/10th as much as REDCINE I'd rather go with Color.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

can i put this one in my signature?..hehe

Gunleik Groven
11-24-2008, 02:19 AM
Scratch doesn't suck. The question is: Has Color stopped sucking? :)

Answer may well be: Color sucks a great deal less than it did, maybe it is even half useable :)

The bugfixes listed seem to address some of the severe shortcommings of Color. And Color has not crashed on me for 30 minutes... I'll se what I can do to make it break!

Bruce Allen
11-24-2008, 02:43 AM
If Scratch sucks 1/10th as much as REDCINE I'd rather go with Color.
can i put this one in my signature?..hehe

Please do!

Maybe they'll actually bother to respond to the bug reports and feature requests then!

Assimilate should understand that crippling REDCINE isn't the best thing for PR. And Red should understand that REDCINE is hurting Red at the moment.

I'm using it on a 15 min short right now ant it's hell. You need to be able to relink clips. You need to be able to zoom the timeline, zoom the library, etc. It's extremely worrying when you hit errors like REDCINE going nuts if you try to import too many clips at once.

AND YOU NEED THE DEVELOPERS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THESE ARE INDEED BAD THINGS AND THEY ARE WORKING ON FIXES.

I wouldn't buy software from a company that thinks these issues are acceptable. I'd expect there would be issues of a similar nature with their other products.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Sanjin Jukic
11-24-2008, 02:54 AM
I'm not using REDCINE for a long time.

I use RED Alert only.

Mark L. Pederson
11-24-2008, 02:58 AM
YAWN.

Since this thread seems a bit "anti-Scratch" let me just add the following:

We had Scratch before we had Red cameras. Before we had Scratch - we had Silicon Color (now Color) - the MOMENT we deployed Scratch it changed our business.

REDCINE is a free application. COLOR is a free application (if you buy FCS2 - it is bundled). SCRATCH is not. There are many reasons.

Not everyone "needs" Scratch. In fact, based on the posts I read - very few folks here do. But if you do project on top of project, back-to-back. And you need powerful conform tools, and powerful real-time R3D color grading - I have YET to see anything that can match it. And that's why we bought a second seat. And we will buy a third seat.

IMO - Scratch is NOT a tool for the DEY - "do everything yourself" folks.

I am sure many, many people will do amazing things with Color.

It can NOT currently do enough of things we need to do, fast enough enough, to service the customers we are getting.

Bruce Allen
11-24-2008, 03:07 AM
Not everyone "needs" Scratch. In fact, based on the posts I read - very few folks here do.

You're thinking the wrong way around. How about this:

MOST PEOPLE NEED better tools than the free RED ones. The free RED ones aren't even good enough for my little indie short film.

The question is, which tools? The only usable one up till now (that RED allows) has been Scratch.

Now maybe Color is entering the market. Yaay.


And you need powerful conform tools, and powerful real-time R3D color grading - I have YET to see anything that can match it.

Because RED is still deliberately crippling the other big-time players by disallowing them to play back R3D files in real time. But that's a topic for another thread.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 03:16 AM
YAWN.

Since this thread seems a bit "anti-Scratch" let me just add the following:

We had Scratch before we had Red cameras. Before we had Scratch - we had Silicon Color (now Color) - the MOMENT we deployed Scratch it changed our business.

REDCINE is a free application. COLOR is a free application (if you buy FCS2 - it is bundled). SCRATCH is not. There are many reasons.

Not everyone "needs" Scratch. In fact, based on the posts I read - very few folks here do. But if you do project on top of project, back-to-back. And you need powerful conform tools, and powerful real-time R3D color grading - I have YET to see anything that can match it. And that's why we bought a second seat. And we will buy a third seat.

IMO - Scratch is NOT a tool for the DEY - "do everything yourself" folks.

I am sure many, many people will do amazing things with Color.

It can NOT currently do enough of things we need to do, fast enough enough, to service the customers we are getting.

mark, if scratch fits your needs...cool for you.
it does not fit the needs of others...

maybe if you move up from Scratch to something bigger your business will change again?
its not that far away that the other Tools will get the same raw access as scratch.
then the big advantage of scratch (working with r3d files in 2k/4k realtime) will be gone.
Then the features play again the main factor for the upperclass.
scratch is a cool conforming tool...

and that you think because some doesnt jump on the scratch wagon, doesnt mean that they are Do everything yourself guys.

You know better then me, that Scratch is the el cheapo finishing tool compared to others...and that has some reasons.

Its good in what it can do- nothing more nohing less

back to topic:

the fcp-color workflow is elegant:
i am curious to see how the premiere plug in will perform.

i am interested in both worlds....i have money doesnt matter clients and budget concious clients....

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
11-24-2008, 03:22 AM
For that $75K you spent for Scratch you could get three Arri/Zeiss Master Prime lenses of your choice that you could use in the next 20 years.

I allready have 6 Master Primes lenses Sanjin. But thanks for your idea.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
11-24-2008, 03:26 AM
Why do you hate Redcine so much? I love it, it works great. As well as Scratch.

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 03:30 AM
In fact, based on the posts I read - very few folks here do. But if you do project on top of project, back-to-back. And you need powerful conform tools, and powerful real-time R3D color grading - I have YET to see anything that can match it. And that's why we bought a second seat. And we will buy a third seat.



Mark again, you are thinking because of my posts that i am not doing projects on top of project, back to back?
Actually we work in the $$$$$$ musicvideo range/commercial range and the $$$$$$$ feature range....on a regular base...but also we support cool indieprojects /student films etc....and thats the reason i am happy there is a working workflow for the indiecrowd.

Bruce Allen
11-24-2008, 04:01 AM
Why do you hate Redcine so much? I love it, it works great. As well as Scratch.

1. It doesn't put color info into the .xml file - so when you want to finish your project (eg export from project from Avid or use Crimson) you lose your color decisions.

2. It decides not to import clips sometimes if you go over a certain number (probably I'll have to cut my 15 minute short film in half to get it to import)

3. It doesn't offer any kind of secondaries (which the RED camera really, really needs IMHO - the color red often ends up pink or brown and should be corrected from the beginning)

4. It can't output SD Quicktimes with 3:2 (VERY common workflow still in Hollywood - eg the trailer company I work for has a dozen OS9 Media Composers that edit 29.97 - this is absolutely fine for offlines for even top-tier film trailers)

5. It doesn't support 2 monitors

6. There is no way to easily marquee-select large numbers of clips and shuffle them around in the library. When I work on a scene that was shot across days, I want to put all my clips next to each other so I can make sure they're consistent. This is a pain in the ass to do at the moment.

6.b) Library needs a zoom out button of course.

7. You can't zoom in or out of the timeline in the player (when you want to scrub through a bunch of clips it's a real suck-fest because if you have 430 clips or so, each clips is like one or two pixels wide in the timeline)

8. It still can't output DNxHD36, which every other program under the sun, PC or Mac, works beautifully with.

9. No video output (this is supposed to be a telecine replacement?!?!)

10. No way to re-link clips (if you move media files from one drive to another, or switch from PC to Mac, you have no way to tell it "hey, the files have moved")

...need more?

EDIT: Oh, just remembered a few more:

11. When you save and load REDCINE looks it tends to forget the folder you were working in so you have to keep re-navigating to your looks folder over and over again

12. It says "error saving project file" every time I try to save my project file to somewhere other than "My Documents and Settings\My Videos"

13. File saving is screwy - when I hit "Save" it goes into "Save As"

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 04:04 AM
It can NOT currently do enough of things we need to do, fast enough enough, to service the customers we are getting.

on our last 150 000 USD per day shoot we managed to let the cutter edit the stuff onset...director viewed precolorcorrected scenses with audio/titles/grphics on set in 1080p...after finishing the shoot the editor did some minor changes to the edit.
then online...project finished from start to end without glitches....

and all of that without scratch.

Gunleik Groven
11-24-2008, 04:22 AM
Bruce, as to #3 and the other CC/grading related points, they are features , not bugs... :)


RC/RA are conceptually developing apps for grading in other applications
That some choose to grade in them, is another subject alltogether.

G

Mark L. Pederson
11-24-2008, 04:27 AM
on our last 150 000 USD per day shoot we managed to let the cutter edit the stuff onset...director viewed precolorcorrected scenses with audio/titles/grphics on set in 1080p...after finishing the shoot the editor did some minor changes to the edit.
then online...project finished from start to end without glitches....

and all of that without scratch.

That's great. I can do all of that without Scratch too. But I still need to Scratch to service my customers in the way that I want, and need to service them.

Sanjin Jukic
11-24-2008, 04:28 AM
I allready have 6 Master Primes lenses Sanjin. But thanks for your idea.

Congrats Macgregor.

Good to know that.

BTW + 3 more and you would have almost whole set.

Also I do not hate RC, just do not like "lock on" desktop option.

It's not a MAC UI friendly and you always have to run two displays to get fast look at another app if you need to compare.

Just move mouse to another display, click on finder and unlock your dock to get another app.

Bruce Allen
11-24-2008, 04:35 AM
Bruce, as to #3 and the other CC/grading related points, they are features , not bugs... :)

RC/RA are conceptually developing apps for grading in other applications
That some choose to grade in them, is another subject alltogether.


True. But it's called REDCINE.

As in, you know, telecine. To me, when I go and do the telecine, I have control over the look. And can fix the most glaring errors in the one-light. To me, RED's red tones usually need work. So you need a tool to fix that.

If it were called REDLIMITEDSUCKWARE then I would understand.

Find me a telecine that doesn't do 3:2.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Mark L. Pederson
11-24-2008, 04:43 AM
mark, if scratch fits your needs...cool for you.
it does not fit the needs of others...

maybe if you move up from Scratch to something bigger your business will change again?

Maybe. For the record, many folks would be baffled by the amount of applications and hardware we test and evaluate at Offhollywood in addition to MANY applications I personally track.

The MOMENT there is another DI / Color Grading tool that can offer a better ROI for Offhollywood than Scratch does - with the same or better service and support that Assimilate offers - I will buy it. Period.

If Scratch disappeared tomorrow - I would buy a BASELIGHT. Over any other DI system - I would take a BASELIGHT. But even with the amazing deal I was offered - when I run the numbers - my money makes more money elsewhere.




its not that far away that the other Tools will get the same raw access as scratch.

Not if you ask Bruce. But he's in the grassy nole thinking about Roswell.



then the big advantage of scratch (working with r3d files in 2k/4k realtime) will be gone.
Then the features play again the main factor for the upperclass.
scratch is a cool conforming tool...

SORRY. YOU ARE 100% WRONG. The "big advantage" of Scratch is NOT "working with r3d files in 2k/4k realtime" - that's NOT why we bought it. And sadly, IMO, Assimilate has failed to market the key advantages of the application.



and that you think because some doesnt jump on the scratch wagon, doesnt mean that they are Do everything yourself guys.

You know better then me, that Scratch is the el cheapo finishing tool compared to others...and that has some reasons.

Its good in what it can do- nothing more nohing less

back to topic:

the fcp-color workflow is elegant:
i am curious to see how the premiere plug in will perform.

CS4 workflow is the best I have ever seen. Period. It's not ready, but it's very close. Be nice during the public beta. It's going to be released in beta. Everyone know what beta means ...?

I think it's funny that MOST folks here do not even know about IMPORT FCP XML in Premiere 4.0.1 - and with another click your entire FCP timeline is in AE -

Hans von Sonntag
11-24-2008, 04:46 AM
This discussion is a bit redicolous. It's like if you ask: Do I need Discreet
Flame when I can use for a 10th the price AE and Nuke plus all the nice Foundry plugins.

No you don't. But there are a still thousends of Flames around which get regulary updated.

Perhaps the Flame has advatages in worklfow, talent base etc...?

Same with Scratch and all the other mid to highend grading systems.

I still believe that the future userbase of Color is overestimated. Most indies will use CC plugins in their NLE. Much more convenient. Color is a bit akward and working with Scratch, SpeedGrade, Baselight etc... needs considerable knowledge - as with Color.

And beside this: The neccessary hardware for a tricked out grading-suite which lets the colorist do her/his work properly is a huge investment. Software is by far the cheapest item that has to be puchased.

Hans

Hans von Sonntag
11-24-2008, 04:56 AM
I think it's funny that MOST folks here do not even know about IMPORT FCP XML in Premiere 4.0.1 - and with another click your entire FCP timeline is in AE -

Cool. Isn't it?

Premier Pro is going to be the new online tool. If you consider that Cineform can replace DPX and Cineform's RT Premier Pro 4 plugin will be soon released, plus the native R3D import, AE roundtrip, EDL export etc... - I bootcamped my MacPro already.

Hans

Bruce Allen
11-24-2008, 05:03 AM
Not if you ask Bruce. But he's in the grassy nole thinking about Roswell.

Knoll. If you're going to be patronizing at least spell it right.



SORRY. YOU ARE 100% WRONG. The "big advantage" of Scratch is NOT "working with r3d files in 2k/4k realtime" - that's NOT why we bought it. And sadly, IMO, Assimilate has failed to market the key advantages of the application.

Probably you bought it for its data management? I know Digital Domain etc like it for working with VFX assets etc? Maybe I'm wrong? Why don't you fill us in with some info instead of just playing weird games?



CS4 workflow is the best I have ever seen. Period. It's not ready, but it's very close. Be nice during the public beta. It's going to be released in beta. Everyone know what beta means ...?

Yes we do. Probably have been on several beta programs for high-end vendors. Let's move on. Stop being patronizing.



I think it's funny that MOST folks here do not even know about IMPORT FCP XML in Premiere 4.0.1 - and with another click your entire FCP timeline is in AE -

I think everyone participating in this thread is pretty well aware of this actually.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Gunleik Groven
11-24-2008, 06:44 AM
What a can of worms.

It's soon Christmas. Let's rejoyce for Scratch, Nucoda, Pablo, Iridas, Avid, Autodesk, Adobe, Apple and RED.

Finally the options have become more plentifold.

Cheers!

M Most
11-24-2008, 07:28 AM
j
scratch is really good...but way overpriced inmho for what it can do......
The highend people just ignored scratch...

You're saying these things because you're looking at it from the point of view of a RedUser poster. There's a much bigger world of post production out there that works with many different shooting formats. Assimilate Scratch was around before Red, and was designed as a general purpose data management/conforming tool. The fact that they were on board with Red fairly early has little bearing on why most of Assimilate's user base bought the product. It is used for everything from visual effects daily screenings, to data conforms from film scans and other sources, to reformatting for multiple data based deliverables, to color correction and full DI. That's one of the primary reasons it's designed and sold as a modular program, where you can buy the basic data handling engine, or add additional features to it, like data processing, color correction, machine control and real time playout, and basic compositing. Scratch is far more than a Red DI tool. As for the "high end people" ignoring it, I would point out that facilities that most of us certainly consider "high end" - facilities like EFilm, Encore, Fotokem, 3Ality, Postworks, Digital Domain, Cinesite, and a number of others employ at least one, and in some cases, multiple seats of Scratch. And very few, if any, of them use it as a color corrector or as a Red-only tool.

I don't work for Assimilate. I do use Scratch in the facility I currently work in. But this post is really just meant to inform, and to point out that the reasons for its existence have far less to do with its Red capabilities and far more to do with its general image data handling, and its adaptability to different needs and circumstances.

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 07:58 AM
You're saying these things because you're looking at it from the point of view of a RedUser poster. There's a much bigger world of post production out there that works with many different shooting formats. Assimilate Scratch was around before Red, and was designed as a general purpose data management/conforming tool. The fact that they were on board with Red fairly early has little bearing on why most of Assimilate's user base bought the product. It is used for everything from visual effects daily screenings, to data conforms from film scans and other sources, to reformatting for multiple data based deliverables, to color correction and full DI. That's one of the primary reasons it's designed and sold as a modular program, where you can buy the basic data handling engine, or add additional features to it, like data processing, color correction, machine control and real time playout, and basic compositing. Scratch is far more than a Red DI tool. As for the "high end people" ignoring it, I would point out that facilities that most of us certainly consider "high end" - facilities like EFilm, Encore, Fotokem, 3Ality, Postworks, Digital Domain, Cinesite, and a number of others employ at least one, and in some cases, multiple seats of Scratch. And very few, if any, of them use it as a color corrector or as a Red-only tool.

I don't work for Assimilate. I do use Scratch in the facility I currently work in. But this post is really just meant to inform, and to point out that the reasons for its existence have far less to do with its Red capabilities and far more to do with its general image data handling, and its adaptability to different needs and circumstances.

Mike, dont overrate yourself...you know nothing about me.


But actually i said myself like you said that scratch is not used in many facilities as Finishing Tool.

This is my point...scratch is good in what it can do....and thats all.
Like you said, i said, that a lot of postfacilities dont use Scratch as Finishing/CC Tool...

But with RED assimilate Scratch did promote themselves as powerful r3d realtime CC tool. there are better options out there...You say yourself that hardly somebody use Scratch as CC Tool..data management is a different thing. what i said in previous posts;too
But they had/have the monopoly for raw access for a long time now....which is interesting for the 5000 redusers out there.
This is reality.

more then 50% of my projects are NON Red...remember: Germany is Arri land.
But more and more the clients choose RED over 35 mm for various reasons.
thats reality here

Evangelos Achillopoulos
11-24-2008, 08:06 AM
From my point of view... REDONE is officially a RED camera!

Not an Assimilate REDONE...

I mean, its not anymore a byproduct of Scratch (the camera)...

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 08:16 AM
scratch is a cool conforming tool...


You know better then me, that Scratch is the el cheapo finishing tool compared to others...and that has some reasons.

Its good in what it can do
....

just as reminder for you mike:

cool conforming tool.
el cheapo finishing tool.

how many postfacilities use scratch as data manager again.
And how many use Scratch as CC/Finishing Tool again.

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 08:22 AM
... Assimilate Scratch was around before Red, and was designed as a general purpose data management/conforming tool....And very few, if any, of them use it as a color corrector or as a Red-only tool.


you are completly right here.
for me its weird that a cool conforming tool was over a year the only tool beside reds tools to get access to the raw--knowing that other vendors are much stronger in the CC area.

Gladly this times will change.

btw...this is a reduser forum.

Lewis-M Soucy
11-24-2008, 08:37 AM
I think everyone is right and everyone is wrong. It's a matter of means, final destination and service. All the technical stuff si great, but NO WAY will I put 90k$ in a software that delivers an output for a 17,5k$ camera. Mark at OH has a true point, but the Red camera has been a tremendous revolution for the DEY guys, and so should a CC software. Assimilate are great guys, and their machine rocks, but I still think there's a software missing in the picture for most of us. Or hang on, maybe Color is the one...

Anyway, we always have that discussion every once in a while, it's a bit too recurrent, and unless Scratch make a 500$ "Scratch Mini" that suits the "Silver Bullet" crowd (or the "Nikon boys" ;)), we'll have that talk again. It's the rich VS the poor discussion, period. Everyone should realize that and stop bitching about Scratch. There is a RED life without Scratch, so enjoy...

Evangelos Achillopoulos
11-24-2008, 08:39 AM
Not to be misunderstood...

I have said in the past , that REDONE is a two part device, an encoder (the camera itself) and a decoder (REDCine, REDalert)... The decoder was good for playing around more like our Preview tool in our Mac's... But for real work in a feature length movie they needed a serious workarounds like Crimson, Monkey etc...

So Assimilate Scratch enters the scene... Users that couldn't afford to buy Scratch couldn't use the camera as efficiently as user that are having Scratch... That created a two speed clients the high end and the indies...

The price difference from Camera to Scratch was (is) huge...

30K for a basic package REDONE plus Scratch 75K equals 100K to have an equivalent system as any other camera...

So for me it was, up until now, an Assimilate REDONE camera...

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 08:44 AM
Lewis, in my opinion the DEY guys are well served now with the fcs2 installer and the coming adobe plug in.

The time for a 500 USD scratch is over now....lucas is completly right in this point. but i still believe they could have done good business the past 12 months.

doesnt matter, the plug in is out now.

I wait for the moment when other di tools get access to the raw.

Cüneyt Kaya
11-24-2008, 08:51 AM
Not to be misunderstood...

I have said in the past , that REDONE is a two part device, an encoder (the camera itself) and a decoder (REDCine, REDalert)... The decoder was good for playing around more like our Preview tool in our Mac's... But for real work in a feature length movie they needed a serious workarounds like Crimson, Monkey etc...

So Assimilate Scratch enters the scene... Users that couldn't afford to buy Scratch couldn't use the camera as efficiently as user that are having Scratch... That created a two speed clients the high end and the indies...

The price difference from Camera to Scratch was (is) huge...

30K for a basic package REDONE plus Scratch 75K equals 100K to have an equivalent system as any other camera...

So for me it was, up until now, an Assimilate REDONE camera...

you are right evangelos...
i think that at least 3500 red users dont have access to a propper DI Tool...
and can not afford themselves to buy scratchcine at least
i could offer the services my clients needed...but i know beside myself a hell lot of postfacilities waiting for the raw access...which will come for sure.

good times are waiting for everybody.
the choice was what was missing.

Hans von Sonntag
11-24-2008, 09:05 AM
All the technical stuff si great, but NO WAY will I put 90k$ in a software that delivers an output for a 17,5k$ camera.

There have been many famous directors that used mini-dv footage with 1.000.000 USD Pogel/Davinci systems:)

----

How would people talk about DI systems if Filmlight, Digital Vision, Autodesk, Quantel had an subforum here on reduser? Personally I'm tired about all this Scratch bashing.

I must admit that Assimilate has to blame themselfs a bit. Their pricing policy is nebulous - for most redusers. And their strategy to sell Scratch as the only true RedOne finishing tool is unlucky to say the least.

Mark's comments as Red's strongest druid (we love you!) does no help either - sometimes.

Regards,

Hans

Nook Kim
11-28-2008, 12:08 AM
9. No video output (this is supposed to be a telecine replacement?!?!)


There's my big one.

Barend Onneweer
11-28-2008, 06:41 AM
I thought the thread was about the merits of Scratch compared to Color? RedCine is a different topic. Judging Scratch purely by using RedCine doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it? I don't judge Color by playing around with iMovie.

Although I'm running a Windows shop here I've considered adding Apple Color to my studio. The UI and functionality seem okay. But until now there were so many workarounds, even documented in the manual, that I've steered clear of it. I need to upgrade to a workhorse finishing tool that I can trust when I'm on critical deadlines. From what I've read and heard Color is not quite there yet.

But like with many of these things: if you have time, I'm sure you can achieve the same results with Color as you can with Scratch or Speedgrade. I can actually do more in After Effects than in any of those. It just takes ages.

Bar3nd

indierider
11-28-2008, 09:42 AM
I have sat in almost every CG suite in New York and i feel nothing is more user friendly than Scratch.... which I now own.
Anyone with any Photoshop experience can run it. if you can't your in the wrong business.
I can shoot a spot in the daytime, go back to my studio,
load the footage
Color Grade the crap out of R3D 4k files
kick out 2k SDI to ProRes422HQ with an AJA I/O HD or Matrox box in realtime straight to a Lacie Rugged to be delivered to the editor first thing in the morning and wow everyone.
No L & T, no Render bars, No Crashes, No bugs.
All this and make it home for dinner.

Best part, I have control of the images and I can deliver my grade super fast. I do not have to explain the "scary" RED workflow or set up a conform or worry about what crap Color Grade the Editor and Producer will do to the footage with out consulting me the DP ruining a potential piece for my reel which was the plague of DPs during this last decade with HD.

Color is great for students and Nobudget Productions but its not a professional tool...it just aint. Sure you can get some decent results but most Producers have FCP and Color and they don't want to use it because they could never bring their clients to sit in on a session using Color it just doesn't look expensive and bad ass enough.

Scratch is cheap. I priced out the new affordable (200K) Divinci System that was at IBC this year and it can not do anything 4k.

If you think its expensive you must of just got into the business. When I started in this business 15 years ago I dreamed of owning a S16mm camera package someday that cost 90k and an Avid that was 40k used. For that much these days you can start a RED camera rental house or Post Production Facilty with an Avid or FCP system and Scratch cine... a little more cash for Scratch finishing.

Another reason...it separates you from the little punk-ass wanna-be DPs. The ones that 3 years ago graduated from Film School and got an HVX for a graduation gift and then bought an adapter and started calling themselves DPs or worse Production Companies yet never been on a professional set, touched a light or made a camera or lighting order, but they own every Jim Jarmusch movie on DVD

You can really kill it with Scratch. Fast turn arounds, Put out beautiful work and make some serious cash too
Color not so much

Oh yeah one more thing... Unlimited number of Scaffolds, (aka Power windows) in any shape you want.
Thats the most powerful thing in the business today if you ask me.

Lucas Wilson
11-28-2008, 11:13 AM
I wait for the moment when...

This is an interesting thread to read. But honestly, this - for me - is the comment that explains things the best.

I think everybody would agree that RED are absolute masters of marketing. Creating a sense of anticipation for the future. And I personally think that rocks.

But the post workflow is for people here - today - now - that need to get work done. So many people on Reduser start their comments about post workflow with, "I can't wait until..." or "It will be awesome when..." or "Any news yet about..."

Yet, there are thousands of cameras out right now that are shooting and need to get work done.

A feature has started shooting. There are at least 3 hours a day - usually much more - of R3D footage that is coming in over a 5-week production schedule. They need high-quality dailies to HDCAM-SR with a quick one-light, burn-in, audio, and an ALE and EDL that represents the media for offline batch digitize. No excuses, no bulls**t.

SCRATCH is not for everyone, and I personally know a lot of facilities that have built successful RED workflows without it!

But SCRATCH is still - by far - the best tool for fast, realtime R3D workflow with no ingest, no conversion, and no waiting. Right now, today. Delivered, proven, and working.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Lucas Wilson
11-28-2008, 11:18 AM
And a couple of personal comments...

Kaya - there are many, many facilities using SCRATCH for high-end DI and client-supervised color grading. All you need to do is go to our website and take a look at the customer case studies. Probably the best recent example is "Journey to the Center of the Earth," which was the *first* feature graded actually in stereo, where the director and the DP sat in the DI theatre with stereo glasses on, grading live in stereo... 100% on SCRATCH.

Bruce - I am at a loss as to why you continue to use REDCINE when you dislike it so much. Really. Move on to another tool! Maybe you continue to use it because, despite everything you hate about it - it works?


Because RED is still deliberately crippling the other big-time players by disallowing them to play back R3D files in real time.


RED is not "deliberately crippling" anyone. You don't work for RED or ASSIMILATE, and your comments indicate how much you don't know about the dynamics of that relationship, and why things happened they way they did. Stay away from the speculation - you're doing the community a disservice, primarily because it is speculation - and it is wrong.

Best,

Lucas

Cüneyt Kaya
11-28-2008, 12:42 PM
.....I wait for the moment when...
This is an interesting thread to read. But honestly, this - for me - is the comment that explains things the best.

SCRATCH is not for everyone, and I personally know a lot of facilities that have built successful RED workflows without it!


include me in that list.
if you read carefully my posts you see what i do today without scratch.
but it would be even better if the others get the access too.




But SCRATCH is still - by far - the best tool for fast, realtime R3D workflow with no ingest, no conversion, and no waiting. Right now, today. Delivered, proven, and working.


like i said--------cool datamanager
but el cheapo finishing tool.
dont want to compare autodesk finishing tools with scratch.
werent there problems with build 16 stuff?-all solved i guess :)

Cüneyt Kaya
11-28-2008, 12:45 PM
And a couple of personal comments...

Kaya - there are many, many facilities using SCRATCH for high-end DI and client-supervised color grading. All you need to do is go to our website and take a look at the customer case studies.

you can look to the other guys pages and start comparing yourself if you want.

Sanjin Jukic
11-28-2008, 01:13 PM
I said 6 months or even longer ago that Scratch is unbeatable for RED workflow and will stay longer because is data based app or system or whatever...

Only it's a pity that they didn't realize that the laptop RED market (rushes dailies, previews, etc..CC for 2K US$) that RED1 opened with about or more then 5.000 cameras sold.

High end market share is O.K. but that's not a future of a small company at all as we all know that even if we are not involved in owning of any.

Bruce Allen
11-28-2008, 01:44 PM
I thought the thread was about the merits of Scratch compared to Color? RedCine is a different topic.

Because MacGregor (the guy who started the thread) asked me specifically. So I answered.


Judging Scratch purely by using RedCine doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it? I don't judge Color by playing around with iMovie.

Judging Final Cut Pro by Final Cut Express is more apt.

Hmm, Color is made by a different group of coders to the people who made iMoviie.


T
A feature has started shooting. There are at least 3 hours a day - usually much more - of R3D footage that is coming in over a 5-week production schedule. They need high-quality dailies to HDCAM-SR with a quick one-light, burn-in, audio, and an ALE and EDL that represents the media for offline batch digitize. No excuses, no bulls**t.


You just described a telecine.

Isn't REDCINE supposed to be a telecine for RED footage? That's why it's named that way, right?

But now you want me to buy SCRATCH just for that?


T
But SCRATCH is still - by far - the best tool for fast, realtime R3D workflow with no ingest, no conversion, and no waiting. Right now, today. Delivered, proven, and working.


Because you don't allow any others.



Bruce - I am at a loss as to why you continue to use REDCINE when you dislike it so much. Really. Move on to another tool!

I'm on a PC. I currently have no other tool. Because you bastards don't allow anyone else to directly access .R3Ds.



Maybe you continue to use it because, despite everything you hate about it - it works?


HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE REDCINE FORUM? OMG?!?!?!

MY FAVORITE IS THE ONE WHERE PEOPLE ASK IN MARCH IF THEY CAN RE-LINK FILES AND YOU SAY "uhh, looking into it". AND NEVER GET BACK TO THEM.

NOTICED ANY BUG REPORTS FROM ME?

...THAT YOU NEVER BOTHERED TO ANSWER?

AAAAAARGH! No it doesn't work.!



RED is not "deliberately crippling" anyone. You don't work for RED or ASSIMILATE, and your comments indicate how much you don't know about the dynamics of that relationship, and why things happened they way they did. Stay away from the speculation - you're doing the community a disservice, primarily because it is speculation - and it is wrong.


This is not speculation but observation. RED is deliberately crippling everyone else by disallowing other people the same access to the .R3D format that you guys have.

EDIT: To take it back to Scratch, my point is this:

- if the makers of Scratch have to cripple REDCINE so hard in order not to hurt their business, then it's not a good sign for Scratch.

- eg differentiating your paid from your free product by saying "hey, this one can reliably write to tape, do a quick one-light, burn-in, audio, and an ALE and EDL." is kinda scary. Because in it suggests that the reasons we're having so much grief with the free one is because you don't want it to be reliable.

-Assimilate have had access to the .R3D file format for far longer than anyone else but have so far failied to do innovative cool stuff with it. They're just enjoying the fact that their competitors are crippled by a super-slow SDK. They should be differentiating Scratch by adding features such as:
- very clever noise reduction that works on the RAW level (RED footage is often pretty noisy)
- superior sharpening and optics correction that work on the RAW level (think Adobe Camera RAW)

Assimilate should be leading the way.

Make REDCINE work properly. Bother to support it. If done right, it'd turn a lot of people on to Scratch. At the moment it turns people off Scratch.


I said 6 months or even longer ago that Scratch is unbeatable for REd workflow and will stay longer because is data based app or system or whatever...

Only it's a pity that they didn't realize that the laptop RED market (rushes dailies, previews, etc..CC for 2K US$) that RED1 opened with about or more then 5.000 cameras sold.

Totally agree. Assimilate really dropped the ball here. Everyone I know with a Red package has a little laptop to go with it.

If Assimilate were smart they'd have made a product for that. But I don't think they ever expected Red One to sell 5,000 cameras ;)

Face it: we're now in the mass market (and with Scarlet, even more so).

The first company to make a $$$$ program that can handle our basic Red needs (the ones that REDCINE was supposed to handle, but doesn't because it sucks so much) will make a lot of money.

Still could be you, Assimilate. It's 2008. Most indies have figured out by now that you don't need a $$$$$ system to handle basic stuff like dailies.

Get out of the '90s and come and join us. Seriously.

Or just take a look at all the bug reports in the REDCINE page and start fixing, please.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Barend Onneweer
11-28-2008, 02:46 PM
Okay this thread is starting to get ridiculously unfriendly now.

The broken support with build 16 shows exactly why RED may have chosen to keep the SDK internal until the firmware and data formatting was 'finalized'. If anyone's to blame here it would be RED for selling cameras without a proper way to access the material on multiple platforms. As far as I know RedCine is still RED's responsibility. They probably pay for the development.

And as far as a universal solution for R3D workflow goes:


Good morning one & all,
Import your R3D files, change resolution on the fly, pop into full resolution for some detail work, drop all the way down to 1/16th for fast cuts on a laptop --- it's all there.

We're right up to 2K at full performance with the latest drop.

Oh, and did I mention that we're working the RED gang on exposing more control on the realtime de-bayering ? ... and of course with Assimilate on making it a full, clean, raw end to end workflow ?


That's Assimilate working with Adobe. There's your 'cheap' alternative. It's a year overdue, but I'm not convinced it's Assimilate to blame there.

And how come everyone feels so entitled to Scratch for the price of Color?

But since we're complaining about stuff: Quicktime sucks major a$$.

Barend

Lucas Wilson
11-28-2008, 05:37 PM
Bruce,

Just fyi - calling products "suckware" and calling people "bastards" doesn't really help anything.

It's just software, man... people's lives are not on the line here.

Take a deep breath and chill... :)

Lucas

Joe Walker
11-28-2008, 11:09 PM
I would just like to second everything that Bruce is saying and re-emphasize that REDCine is severely crippled, buggy, and in most cases not performing up to par. It's been in Beta for over a year now and is still suffering from the same problems since its release. I personally know of nobody within a 400 mile radius of myself currently using (successfully) REDCine as a vital tool in the postproduction pipeline. I think the best thing to happen to REDCine was Crimson Workflow, which the designers of REDCine should either be thanking profusely or looking to hire onto their team. Ian if you ever read this, you single-handedly made REDCine actually somewhat useful (read: useable). I am not trying to be negative, but at the same time, this program is long overdue for some re-working. Batch exports should not lock up in mid-render, xml's should be able to be bounced back and forth with clips of extremely short and extremely long lengths of all kinds supported, I should be able to at some point "hear" the audio playing back in REDCine (I know that's not important to colorists but for what we do its somewhat critical). Bruce is not alone in his wishes for what should be changed with this program. I think he has made some very reasonable requests. Just thought I would offer a little backup here!

Cüneyt Kaya
11-29-2008, 07:59 AM
I would just like to second everything that Bruce is saying and re-emphasize that REDCine is severely crippled, buggy, and in most cases not performing up to par. It's been in Beta for over a year now and is still suffering from the same problems since its release. I personally know of nobody within a 400 mile radius of myself currently using (successfully) REDCine as a vital tool in the postproduction pipeline. I think the best thing to happen to REDCine was Crimson Workflow, which the designers of REDCine should either be thanking profusely or looking to hire onto their team. Ian if you ever read this, you single-handedly made REDCine actually somewhat useful (read: useable). I am not trying to be negative, but at the same time, this program is long overdue for some re-working. Batch exports should not lock up in mid-render, xml's should be able to be bounced back and forth with clips of extremely short and extremely long lengths of all kinds supported, I should be able to at some point "hear" the audio playing back in REDCine (I know that's not important to colorists but for what we do its somewhat critical). Bruce is not alone in his wishes for what should be changed with this program. I think he has made some very reasonable requests. Just thought I would offer a little backup here!


i am backing up bruce too.
and i know personally another 15-20 red one ownerns who share this opinion.
we are talking for a huge silent group here.

Cüneyt Kaya
11-29-2008, 08:18 AM
Bruce,

Just fyi - calling products "suckware"


this part indicates humor



and calling people "bastards" doesn't really help anything.

It's just software, man... people's lives are not on the line here.

Take a deep breath and chill... :)

Lucas

i would never go so far and call somebody like that.

Meryem Ersoz
11-29-2008, 10:05 AM
Jim has said that a new version of RedCine is coming soon.

I agree with Bruce that using RedCine is like death by a thousand cuts, and it has been disappointing that better post-workflow support has not been easily forthcoming over the past 18 months.

New programs like RedRushes have helped, but only by providing more, better workarounds....a truly integrated solution would have been welcome.

It is really the 3rd-party programmers who have saved the workflow. Clipfinder has been a godsend. So has Crimson Workflow. And now FCP integration with Color is greatly enhancing things. As will the Adobe plug-in, no doubt.

Things are definitely crawling along, but it would be great to have the same quantum leaps in workflow that we are witnessing in RED camera technology development...

I'd rather put the $10K for an EPIC camera upgrade towards a killer post solution for my RED ONE, if such a solution existed at that price point....

There's a gaping chasm between the freeware solutions and the options currently available for purchase.

Mark L. Pederson
11-29-2008, 10:16 AM
I'd rather put the $10K for an EPIC camera upgrade towards a killer post solution for my RED ONE, if such a solution existed at that price point....


Put down $1699 and save the balance for an Scarlet S35 Brain.

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/production/

Meryem Ersoz
11-29-2008, 10:32 AM
Put down $1699 [/url]

that's the one that I'm waiting on...I was just trying to make a point...

Sean
11-29-2008, 12:44 PM
Bruce,

Just fyi - calling products "suckware" and calling people "bastards" doesn't really help anything.

It's just software, man... people's lives are not on the line here.

Take a deep breath and chill... :)

Lucas

True, no lives on the line. Maybe some livlihoods, I dunno.

I hear some smart, professional people just really frustrated. There's something missing from the equation, and many people feel it could be fixed.

Santiago Marti
11-29-2008, 03:10 PM
scratch didn't get the message, and that is not our problem. with color working and the adobe plugin out anytime soon, we'll have no need for it. i'm really wating to try color finesse, magic bullet and colorista right inside aftereffects. for me assimilate and apple are against red's philosophy, i never understood why red choosed them. apple only uses quicktime and doesn't handle 4K and assimilate is more expensive than the camera itself! adobe should buy scratch and sell it just like apple sells color. but if assimilate sells software sooooo overpriced they would ask adobe a ridiculous amount of money. ten years from now adobe and apple will still be there. assimilate? maybe. won't care.

Meryem Ersoz
11-29-2008, 04:24 PM
for me assimilate and apple are against red's philosophy, i never understood why red choosed them.

Maybe you should take the time to understand why RED chose them. It's one thing to be critical, entirely another thing to be ignorant.

RED could not invent in a vacuum, they needed the knowledge base of their partnerships. But their users simply want and need more than the supplied tools. We are getting them, slowly but surely. More slowly than surely, though.

Too many people with very few posts spouting off these days about things they haven't taken the time to understand...

...and where is my Adobe plug-in?? Hayhurst said by Thanksgiving, and I'm running out of leftover turkey....

Santiago Marti
11-29-2008, 05:18 PM
Maybe you should take the time to understand why RED chose them. It's one thing to be critical, entirely another thing to be ignorant.

i'm not being ignorant. we are dealing with raw material here, not film, quicktime, dpx, etc. for me the best players in the raw workflow arena are adobe and cineform, maybe they weren't interested at the time, dunno. we are talking tapeless here, not hdcam sr for dailies. i know hdcam sr is great, but i don't see the point. that's why we have redcine, the problem is it doesn't work very well. should we think that as we bought a really great camera at an incredible price we shouldn't complain? maybe. the question here is, do we need scratch now that we have color support and adobe around the corner? maybe we don't need it anymore, at least not exclusively. scratch is great, but if i can use adobe with an aja or decklink card why spend so much money in scratch, when i can save for epic, or buy lenses. i didn't try color yet, but after trying color and the adobe plugin i will have a definitive answer. maybe i'm wrong and have to buy scratch. but i'm sure i will prefer to upgrade to epic, that's for sure.

Blair S. Paulsen
11-29-2008, 05:18 PM
Partnerships and cooperative relationships, whether between people or businesses, are rarely a perfect mesh. Assimilate, Apple, RED, Adobe, etc each have their own agendas. Even if the perception that some of these partner's priorities are anathema to the "RED philosophy" (as you define it) is accurate, I don't think it is constructive to denigrate them on that basis.

All that said, the more salient issue is whether a companies' product and the way they support it suits your business model as a user. For me Scratch is a terrific tool because it allows access to the full data set of the RAW r3d files in a real time environment. Assimilate has had my back on several occasions since I bought their product. Because of this, I have happy clients who get top flight images quickly and reliably.

Bottom line, just because a tool does not fit your particular business model / client base does not mean that it is inherently flawed.

On a related note: I have been a vocal complainer about the lack of resources Apple has put into supporting their professional apps of late. I have been a Mac guy for 20 years and the last 2 years have been pathetic, starting with anemic GPU support. We should have had a serious hardware and software upgrade by NAB 2008 that included robust tools for RedUsers that still has not dropped. r3d support in Color should have been sorted by NAB 2008, not Thanksgiving.

When a well integrated Suite of tools (FCS 3?) running on a modern hardware architecture with proper support for high resolution imagery, 5.1 sound and access to color correction without leaving the host app (FCP) is actually in the wild, then, this is a different discussion.

Lucas Wilson
11-29-2008, 05:32 PM
I personally know of nobody within a 400 mile radius of myself currently using (successfully) REDCine as a vital tool in the postproduction pipeline...

Joe,

I grew up in Huntsville, and lived in B'ham for a few years as well. I actually know several people in H'ville, B'ham, Atlanta, Nashville, and Memphis that are using REDCINE on a fairly regular basis. And even one in Gadsden if you can believe that!

You just happened to pick a region I'm very familiar with. ;)

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Joe Walker
11-29-2008, 08:05 PM
Gadsden eh? Who in Gadsden has a RED camera or is involved in production? I thought only Bill Schweikert and Leo had RED cameras in northern Alabama. Okay........Hmmm. Well as a fellow southeastern born creative kind of guy, why don't you slide me a free version of Scratch or a version of REDCine that performs a bit more "stable". You know how the barter system down here works! ;) Look, I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time, but seriously, REDCine has been in beta for a while now and needs some serious fixing. Leo and I both have shared hours of frustration over this thing, and when we recently tried out Crimson, we were both astounded at how we finally thought this was really helping REDCine come around. I'll give you this, when REDCine has worked for us, I will admit, it is a fantastic one-light grading program. Very well thought out. But I mean every single freaking time I set off a batch render, or sit there dying to hear the audio so I can set some decent in/out points, or render out a TIFF file that mysteriously becomes a 15MB image after I've been rendering out 54MB TIFFS for the previous two hours...I mean, its just frustrating. I would be more than willing to contact you outside this forum and discuss all of this. I am totally in love with the RED One and I'm just trying to make it better, which goes on to include the freeware that comes with it.

Lucas Wilson
11-29-2008, 08:18 PM
Gadsden eh? Who in Gadsden has a RED camera or is involved in production? I thought only Bill Schweikert and Leo had RED cameras in northern Alabama.

Schweikert??? Sh*t man, that dude owes me money. :)

Seriously, tell Bill you've been chatting with me. He and I worked together for several years at Intergraph when they had a serious corporate facility. He's a good guy and a talented DP. Have you seen "Like Moles, Like Rats?"

Drop me a line at lucas (at) assimilateinc (dot) com and we'll see about what kinda barter system you got in mind. Just fyi - any kind of barter system with me will involve several FedEx packages from Dreamland and Milo's.

Lucas

Joe Walker
11-29-2008, 08:27 PM
Like Moles Like Rats?! Yeah, me and Scott Ross the editor hang out all over the 'Ham regularly, mostly at Rojo. Dreamland and Milo's can be arranged, Leo and I will be in touch with you early next week, guaranteed.

Juan M.P.
11-29-2008, 10:54 PM
This thread felt kinda hostile to me...
the fanboy posts on any side kinda sucks, this are work tools and there is no reason to take any comment personal.
I work with SCRATCH, almost every single day.
I've deliver succesful HDCAM, PHANTOM, REDONE, 16mm, etc etc etc footage with the tool, also integrated with other softwares.
so...
SCRATCH works, if you like it, good. and if you like Color and it works for you its also good. go with what works for you...
at the end isnt all about delivering great pictures besides of the way we do it or the software we use??

Barend Onneweer
11-30-2008, 03:22 AM
This thread felt kinda hostile to me...


Yeah, and then all of a sudden Joe and Lucas got all nostalgic together and now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :love:

But agreed, if you don't need Scratch, quit complaining about its price. Stick to Color.

Someone in this thread even suggested with the Adobe plugin they'd grade in After Effects. Not the same. But if it works, it works. I've done a lot of grading in AE and it's acceptable for commercials but a real pain for music videos let alone features and documentaries.

Bar3nd

Gunleik Groven
11-30-2008, 03:47 AM
I think the discussion is fun :)

Color is a long way from being able to replace Scratch by any means. I'm still not sure if it even works for a full project as of yet. The bugs are too plentyfold, the 2k sourcing is a real pita, and I'm not even sure if the in and out points can work properly for a longer cut.

BUT it is a nice tech preview of things to come.

The way it handles the RAW files, is also going to create problems for quite a few.

As a workflow it is underperforming. This can be partly due to 25fps issues, but there are still issues...
But the images look good! It is a start.

For CC'ing single clips that are not underexposed, it's way quicker/better than RC/Crimson/Color

It will be very interesting to see what Adobe comes up with (in cooperation with Assimilate AND RED) and either Apple will have worked out a nice Color workflow by FCS 3 or they won't. Easy as that.

The realtime playback in Color was my biggest positive surprise. It gives a lot of hope to other SDK based workflows.

Scratch is very much alive and kicking, and as computing power meets build 16/17/18/xxx, Scratch will be as good as it used to be for realtime layback to tape/playout of DPXs etc... :)

We're in the middle of a technological paradigma-shift which won't settle for at least the next couple of years. It sure is frustrating and aggravating @ times, and I think it is fair to point that out. But the images we get are nevertheless in a totally different league than anything that was accessible with comparable equipment a year ago. Even 8 months ago. Let's not forget that.

Things are not "there" yet, by far. But they keep getting better!
And there are always the option to do it "the old way": DPX/TIFF sequences to anything. It works rather well, and have been long before RED.

But the future is definitely bright and RAW. It just isn't there yet.

And let's continue the asking for more... :)

Juan M.P.
11-30-2008, 09:58 PM
Yeah, and then all of a sudden Joe and Lucas got all nostalgic together and now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :love:

Lol, make love, not war!

Lucas Wilson
11-30-2008, 10:18 PM
Lol, make love, not war!

Hey man... you've never had Dreamland ribs from Birmingham or a Milo's burger with extra sauce and extra salt.. That food would cure all the world's ills and bring peace to humanity. They are that good.

And for the vegetarians, just drink a few litres of Milo's Sweet Tea and curl up in a ball while the sugar coma hits you.

Good food with good friends cures all.

Lucas

Jeffo
12-02-2008, 01:24 AM
Red users,
Hope is great.
This is good thread to look at after being away. Anything less than frame accurate in most of the professional world is unacceptable and then unexplainable to production. Close but no cigar is not close enough. So keep that in mind before you sell a workflow. Scratch has a track record with this in the pro ranks.
If its a small in house gig. Test it. Use it love it try it.
Then testify.
For RED SDK experiments there are no guarantees. Productions want guarantees.
Studios demand guarantees.
Just a Humble opinion..
best,
Jeff O.
LA,CA

Juan M.P.
12-02-2008, 07:42 AM
Hey man... you've never had Dreamland ribs from Birmingham or a Milo's burger with extra sauce and extra salt.. That food would cure all the world's ills and bring peace to humanity. They are that good.

Ah, hamburgers! the cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast

:)

Darren Orange
12-02-2008, 03:42 PM
Good food with good friends cures all.

Lucas

Ain't that the truth! Hummm, now I'm hungry, ha! :turned: