Red and Flame

[Kyle Stauffer]

Been messing about with the current available footage from Red on the 4k Flame (milkgirls & the jackson clip). Even in its compressed, web-delivered state, the footage is really quite nice to grade and work with. I really can't wait to get an uncompressed 2k or 4k clip to drop in and work with.

Has anyone here worked with any raw assets from Red on Lustre, etc yet? I'm assuming someone did for the Jackson short, but anyone here with hands on?

[el_cheapo]

kai,

Sorry this is off topic, but I could not help but notice that you are using autodesk applications. I've been dying to try these out on a linux machine, as supposedly they blow avid, FCP and premiere out of the water in terms of stability and versitility. The problem of course, is that they are a little out of my budget. i was wondering if you knew where i could find a trial version, or something of that nature. thanks ----jb

[SalaTar]

Folks at Weta are tight lipped still

[Bachman]

Cheapo, just do a Torrent search

[Peter McCully]

kai,

Sorry this is off topic, but I could not help but notice that you are using autodesk applications. I've been dying to try these out on a linux machine, as supposedly they blow avid, FCP and premiere out of the water in terms of stability and versitility. The problem of course, is that they are a little out of my budget. i was wondering if you knew where i could find a trial version, or something of that nature. thanks ----jb

I'm a little puzzled as to why you think a linux application would be more versatile (leaving aside the stability). The versatility of any app is inherent and unless you want to use Flame...? I use Eyeon's Fusion on Windows XP boxes - brilliant app. Shake is terrific on Apple and really affordable. What apps do you have in mind?

[Alex Boothby]

I really can't wait to get an uncompressed 2k or 4k clip to drop in and work with.

Has anyone here worked with any raw assets from Red on Lustre, etc yet? I'm assuming someone did for the Jackson short, but anyone here with hands on?

Uncompressed tiffs of David Stump's November '06 green screen tests can be found in CML. Here:

http://www.cinematography.net/Red/comp-matrix.html

Exposure tests here:

http://www.cinematography.net/Red/red-greenscreen.html
&
http://www.cinematography.net/red-exposure.html

I posted some early grading treatments and thoughts here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=78368

As for keying and color grading Red images on Flame / Inferno / Lustre - yes it is a dream, a truly powerful combo... however I'm starting to get a bit ticked that discrete/autodesk seems to be completely locked into an uncompressed paradigm, and are showing no signs of embracing elegant new compression schemes. In Red's case, that means upping the data rate by at least 36 times just to deal with Redcode (may be as high as 48x depending on Redcode's final compression specs) Put another way, that means 3hrs of Redcode Raw (320 MB Red Drive) translates into over 5 terabytes of uncompressed data. That would kill my Inferno, haha. Sadly I expect to switch over to the new Shake when it ships, as they will likely follow FCPs lead and support new codecs, including (fingers crossed) Redcode Raw, or the new archival "post" Redcode that the boys have been hinting at.

The post production mantra that "uncompressed is king" is about to be challenged in a big way. I simply see no advantage in converting a native Redcode Raw images into a 12 bit tiff or DPX unless you enjoy ramming your head against a data brick wall. Sorry discrete - it's been fun.

Bravo to FCP and Scratch for what they are doing!

[Priyesh P.]

As for keying and color grading Red images on Flame / Inferno / Lustre - yes it is a dream, a truly powerful combo... however I'm starting to get a bit ticked that discrete/autodesk seems to be completely locked into an uncompressed paradigm, and are showing no signs of embracing elegant new compression schemes. In Red's case, that means upping the data rate by at least 36 times just to deal with Redcode

That´s the strange evolution isn´t it? There was a time, I think 10 years and more ago, where we had to struggle with compression because the hardware was not fast enough so the image quality was bad.
Then came the time when everyone was promoting uncompressed because that was the holy grail in terms of quality.
And now eveybody is moving to compression again, because processing power and software technology has made it possible to keep quality AND have less memory usage ( cineform/ si, prores/apple-aja,Redcode ).

[el_cheapo]

Cheapo, just do a Torrent search



Well, The thing about autodesk smoke/flame/inferno etc. is that they are generally unavailible on torrent sites. Iv'e tried. I personally have never used any of these applications; I only know what others have said. Normally I use a pc running media composer or premiere. Perhaps I'm just an inadequate computer user, but lately Ive been contemplating getting a mac after several freezing/crashing issues.
I'm interested autodesk as an alternative to buying a mac. I believe I could build a more powrful linux machine for the same price i would pay for a mac. Thanks for your help.

[Greg M]

Flame and Smoke are more than just software, the hardware is a pretty unique combination.

[Petr Dvorak]

Flame, Smoke, Lustre, Quantel... etc are more about workstation with very special hardware, so performance and rendering speed of this systems is in another level than your naked home computer. Even if you find software part of this systems, its useles without proper hardware.

[Cail Young]

Sorry this is off topic, but I could not help but notice that you are using autodesk applications. I've been dying to try these out on a linux machine, as supposedly they blow avid, FCP and premiere out of the water

Avid is an autodesk product ;)

[Simon Blackledge]

El Cheapo.. torrents.. for Flame? sigh....

Being tied to just uncompressed is a bit of a pain. But considering the money these cost.. the price clients pay per hour.. you should not be to bothered about storage.

Main gripe may be exporting from redcine a dpx seq.. then the import into the framestore.. rather than just load. Though you can just point FFI at seq's on network storage volumes now.

Uncompressed works.. your not going to run into compression troubles.. timeline errors.. playback errors etc.. which ain't what you need with a screaming agency behind you.

Artists want to be artists.. not to wait. Same as editors.. just want to edit. Colourists just want to grade.. not wait..

I've had Avid editors complain that they hate the red line in FCP.. "I have to render it" unlike avid.. But they are comparing a FCP macpro with an xraid to a DS Nitirousssssy thing.. that costs 200k!... pointless.If it's anything else they have set FCP up wrong.. which lets face it isn't hard.. tooooooooooooooooo many pre-sets.

Thats the mold breaking thing about RED. If your really good.. and the red is soooo good.. 4k.. great image.. you stand to make alot of $$$. Discreets take is to charge alot coz your makin alot. Not Red.

Almost like Apple just adding Color for nothing to FCS2.. well not quite.. ;)

Flame is a great product and well priced if you use it right. But it's just another tool.. as is Red1.

[Floris Liesker]

Avid is an autodesk product ;)

No, it isn't. ;)

[Simon Blackledge]

No, it isn't. ;)

lol..

[Kyle Stauffer]

Well, The thing about autodesk smoke/flame/inferno etc. is that they are generally unavailible on torrent sites. Iv'e tried. I personally have never used any of these applications; I only know what others have said. Normally I use a pc running media composer or premiere. Perhaps I'm just an inadequate computer user, but lately Ive been contemplating getting a mac after several freezing/crashing issues.
I'm interested autodesk as an alternative to buying a mac. I believe I could build a more powrful linux machine for the same price i would pay for a mac. Thanks for your help.

Yeah you're not going to find these systems on some file sharing site, etc because as was mentioned, they're complete hardware/software systems, and they ain't cheap. The flame upgrade I just did was $150k (upgrade!). I will say though that on the linux box, this new version just simply screams.

You mentioned building a linux box, but imho a mac will serve you better because its much more versatile, and there's more software available that will serve you across the production pipeline. Flame, etc are very specialized systems.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I've had Avid editors complain that they hate the red line in FCP.. "I have to render it" unlike avid.. But they are comparing a FCP macpro with an xraid to a DS Nitirousssssy thing.. that costs 200k!... pointless.

I loaattheeee the little red bar. And let me tell you. I've run xpress pro on a pathetic Athlon 1200 before streaming media over a 100 base network and it kicked the living daylights out of FCP on a 3ghz mac with an attached raid.

Go figure.

FCP is not in my mind real time. I can't scrub even SD material on a fancy new intel mac like I can in Avid on an ancient computer.

It doesn't take a Nitris to spank FCP.

[John Allardice]

I loaattheeee the little red bar.

No more little red bar in FCS2, codec independent timeline.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I hate the little orange bar too. Mind you not as much as the Red one. But the orange one is only just barely tolerable as well.

[Petr Dvorak]

Yeah you're not going to find these systems on some file sharing site, ...

You can. I found old Cyborg 5 stuff on eDonkey net, but during instalation it asked for hardware (maybe some geek...). You can also find some Flame, (Smoke) stuff there and linux Toxic on torrens too. But from reactions it looks nobody wasnt able to run it. "I get the same problem, when it starts toxik tells me that can not connect to the permit server. WHO EVER HAS INSTALLED AND RUN THE SOFTWARE CAN TELL US." :shifty:
But availability of Flame/Inferno, Cyborg manuals and learning files on p2p net is very usefull if you dont have any possibility to touch real machines but aspire once to work with them.

You can find surprisingly very interesting stuff on net...

But even if you buy these expensive machines (and dont want to pay for nonstop maintenance) you need to employ some IT geeks to run it and service it 24/7. Our boys allways change broken hardware parts with sticker labels "This part can be installed only by authorized "name of company" service engineer". :whistling:

But real time uncompressed editing is a breeze (with instant delivering of every frame via SDI during scrubing opposite to working on FCP and Blkmgc and rendering and rendering ...) :w00t:

[DeaneThrussell]

a few years ago i did a promo with green screen and all the back ground element needed to be timelapse so i shot on my nikon d10 which gave me file in size 3504x2336...and worked with them in flame the result where stunning...but it was a slow does your flame have a autodesk burn farm and do you think this will become a must when working with red files

[DeaneThrussell]

can anyone think of any plug ins that would time remap and and emulate over exposure kinda like a hand cranked camera effect which could be used with the red

[el_cheapo]

Yeah you're not going to find these systems on some file sharing site, etc because as was mentioned, they're complete hardware/software systems, and they ain't cheap. The flame upgrade I just did was $150k (upgrade!). I will say though that on the linux box, this new version just simply screams.

You mentioned building a linux box, but imho a mac will serve you better because its much more versatile, and there's more software available that will serve you across the production pipeline. Flame, etc are very specialized systems.


Thanks kai and everyone for your posts. I see now unless Im working for a large-scale production studio, autodesk is worth no further investigation. I am a mere hobbyist, so I think I will now buy a mac ---- jb

[Petr Dvorak]

a few years ago i did a promo with green screen and all the back ground element needed to be timelapse so i shot on my nikon d10 which gave me file in size 3504x2336...and worked with them in flame the result where stunning...but it was a slow does your flame have a autodesk burn farm and do you think this will become a must when working with red files

On Quantel if you work with hardware supported resolution 720, 1080, 2K etc. its all OK, but when you step into custom resolution its slow.

[Simon Blackledge]

Coz its done in hardware I take it...

[Kyle Stauffer]

a few years ago i did a promo with green screen and all the back ground element needed to be timelapse so i shot on my nikon d10 which gave me file in size 3504x2336...and worked with them in flame the result where stunning...but it was a slow does your flame have a autodesk burn farm and do you think this will become a must when working with red files

My Flame is the latest version, running on the latest linux box they offer (flame 2007, sp3.1). It absolutely screams and does HD & 2k realtime without a hitch. It will also do 4k realtime, but you have to add another Stone array to it (i just have one).

[M Most]

My Flame is the latest version, running on the latest linux box they offer (flame 2007, sp3.1). It absolutely screams and does HD & 2k realtime without a hitch. It will also do 4k realtime, but you have to add another Stone array to it (i just have one).

You're talking about playing rendered clips. I have never seen a Flame or any other computer based device that can do green screen extractions and create multilayer composites without rendering. The Linux based Flame and Inferno builds are indeed faster than the SGI builds they replace. But they are hardly real time for anything other than playing rendered clips.

[dalemccready]

can anyone think of any plug ins that would time remap and and emulate over exposure kinda like a hand cranked camera effect which could be used with the red

check out Stu Maschwitz blog http://prolost.blogspot.com

He had a script for doing the burn in After Effects about a month ago

[tj williams]

Hi Kai
A few years ago we owned a Discreet Edit system. One month with no warning they quit supporting it. Said it was to expensive and dead end to develop because, the software depended on a hardward board to make it work. Didn't know Flame etc was the same way (a hardware board) hope they keep supporting you, My partner and I lost about 30K when they dumped us. at 200K it would be really painful. Seems like software only systems get faster all the time, and cheaper.

[Chris Kenny]

Yeah, the days are numbered for dedicated hardware systems in the video/film industry. They'll fall prey to the relentless advance of commodity IT, the same as they have in other industries. That doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad choice today, of course, if you have the capital to afford them and the work volume to justify them.

[Bachman]

Hi Kai
A few years ago we owned a Discreet Edit system. One month with no warning they quit supporting it. Said it was to expensive and dead end to develop because, the software depended on a hardward board to make it work. Didn't know Flame etc was the same way (a hardware board) hope they keep supporting you, My partner and I lost about 30K when they dumped us. at 200K it would be really painful. Seems like software only systems get faster all the time, and cheaper.

I worked for a company that had 4 Edit's when they Discrete dumped it. Theres a moral in there somewhere.

[Cail Young]

No, it isn't. ;)

Whoops! Caffeine deprivation strikes again! Donate at your local Starbucks today.

[Simon Blackledge]

Flame Fire Inferno are not closed off to hardware as such compared to Quantel I believe. Yes you need to have a specific hardware, but they don't make it.

As for days being numbered I doubt it. Were along long way off realtime in software on current hardware. People will pay for realtime, or faster!.. so there will be a market for it.

s

[Stokestack]

A few years ago we owned a Discreet Edit system. One month with no warning they quit supporting it. Said it was to expensive and dead end to develop because, the software depended on a hardward board to make it work... My partner and I lost about 30K when they dumped us.

Hey TJ, I was an engineer on Edit at Discreet in Chicago. Edit used two boards, the Targa 2000 (and later the 3000) and the Matrox Digisuite. These excuses they gave you are just that, excuses. At the time, you needed hardware boards to do what Edit did. Edit wrung so much performance out of the Targas that Pinnacle reportedly offered to buy the whole product (and team) for $30 million and Discreet said no. Discreet proceeded to can the product, team, and later the Combustion team. So there goes that "too expensive" story. And they still have no similar product; they could've owned the Windows NLE market by now. Instead, they bought Cleaner.

I'll stop there, but know that you're not alone; Autodesk to this day finds itself shut out of many, many broadcasters because of what they did to Edit.

[Bruce Allen]

True for many years. But now the linux versions are just fast PCs with a Quadro and some input/output hardware from AJA. Oh and a fast storage system.

Not to say that the speed and workflow isn't fantastic.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Corrado Silveri]

Anyone knows what is the "real" difference?

Flame or even Inferno
vs.
Macpro8core, full of RAM, fcpstudio2+shake, xRaid via fibrechannel, best option for graphics (Quadro or the x2900xt, when available).

It's not a joke. I'm planning to build a brand new Edit suite (commercial finishing).

I need to know your opinion.

And at last, what about the average pricing?

Thanks in advance,
Elcurado.

[Corrado Silveri]

Just made the count:
For the Macpro suite 40/45.000 USD. All included.

(forgot to mention before an BMD or Aja box, the Adobe CS3 extended + AE)

What about the Autodesk products?

Really don't know.

[Bachman]

Just made the count:
For the Macpro suite 40/45.000 USD. All included.

(forgot to mention before an BMD or Aja box, the Adobe CS3 extended + AE)

What about the Autodesk products?

Really don't know.

You dont have a 3D package in there like Maya, but do you really need one. Looks like you'll be busy enough

If you can afford them, get 2 Eizo monitors, their awesome. What are you doing for an output monitor? If you go for an HD sony it will double your budget.

[Corrado Silveri]

Control monitors, decks, and other pieces of hardware are not in this budget.
Already in the studio, this suite will be a new one in an established environment.

Going to catch some info on the Eizo's.... (thanks)

[Bachman]

No worries. Ive been running 2 S2411W's, I recommend them if colour accuracy is important to you.

[DeaneThrussell]

Anyone knows what is the "real" difference?

Flame or even Inferno
vs.
Macpro8core, full of RAM, fcpstudio2+shake, xRaid via fibrechannel, best option for graphics (Quadro or the x2900xt, when available).

It's not a joke. I'm planning to build a brand new Edit suite (commercial finishing).

I need to know your opinion.

And at last, what about the average pricing?

Thanks in advance,
Elcurado.




Sound like a good investment..your got a lot of BANG for your buck..doing something very similar 4FCP,shake on 8 core G5 suites with Adobe CS3 maya3D etc and a 14TB raid on fibre plus sticking 3 old avid in as offline tools or SD online tools...but still fancy a Flame. With G5 being so fast it's job to say if a flame gonna be faster but the workflow on autodesk products is so good once you ve seen a good op fly round flame nothing compares. Give one Flame to 3 shake suites any day.

Elcurado some toys you need to really get the best out of your investment is a Automatic Duck software and a JBL wheel on your color software
and a good monitor for grading...Barco seem to be the best value

[M Most]

Just made the count:
For the Macpro suite 40/45.000 USD. All included.

(forgot to mention before an BMD or Aja box, the Adobe CS3 extended + AE)

What about the Autodesk products?


A turnkey Smoke system can be had for under $70K. You can also put Flame on the same system for not that much more.

The primary difference in cost is not in the purchase, it's in the maintenance. Autodesk products require a yearly maintenance contract, which if you're a professional facility, is a very good idea anyway. The Apple solution you mentioned won't, at least not directly. Hopefully you'd have a system integrator put together the package and support it. It's likely that the support fee would be less than the Autodesk support, however.

[Corrado Silveri]

Thanks (a lot).
But... What do you think?
Let's forget for a second pure money...
What's the best choice? Or, assuming the Discreet Box is the best, What are the Pro/Cons of each one?
With the Mac box I know I can do a LOT of things... From Capture to Mastering dvd's...

[tj williams]

Stokestack
Verrrrry Interestingggggg..... I didn't know a bout the deal offer.... another stupid move for DL I did believe the support stoppage was more than they said. Other stuff had me in a pretty distrustful space with their customer support.

I won't even go into a room containing a Discreet Logic product. The only thing worse than their lack of regard for the customer is their stupidity. I hope I'm still around to dance on their worthless stock when they fall.

So buy for $70 K and how many hours before the software catches you..... gotta work fast.....
This is basically the great thing for me about the RED... I will have recovered my 17500+ accessories so much faster than the
F900Rs $66,000 plus the life of the RED will be longer. Kinda like watching the Apple folk and assimilate
http://www.assimilateinc.com/color.html catch a little of the Davinci work this year at nab.....
I sat in on a Demo with a colorist fm Europe Nacho somthing... who is doing about 10 movies a year at 50KUSD each on a system that cost under 100K. Same kinda price performance as the RED. All the hardware he uses is off the shelf. and it works really fast. Another place where it becomes about the artist... and he really is one... not the huge piece of equipment. I still remember "CMX" "Grass Valley" etc when they had the big booths and only a big company could own the means of production.

[Corrado Silveri]

Hey tj, you are soooo clear and comprehensible. Thanks.

[M Most]

Thanks (a lot).
But... What do you think?
Let's forget for a second pure money...
What's the best choice? Or, assuming the Discreet Box is the best, What are the Pro/Cons of each one?
With the Mac box I know I can do a LOT of things... From Capture to Mastering dvd's...

Who is your client base? I ask this because the perception of your client base is at least as important as what the equipment you have will do - as is the level of talent either you or your employees bring to the table. If you or your employees are not experienced Discreet users, there will be both a learning curve and a practical ceiling on what you can accomplish in a given amount of time compared to platforms you might be more familiar with. As far as client perception, if you are in a market where "big iron" is available, and your clients are used to it, they will likely want to use something similar, in which case your rates can likely be higher than they can for what they will perceive as "a Mac." There are many, many ways to accomplish the same task today. What you buy and use depends on your client base and their expectations, as well as your anticipated turnarounds and deliverables.

Lots of people want to make this about dollars spent on the equipment for the original purchase. If you're running a business, it's a bit more complicated than that.

[Corrado Silveri]

Catch your point.
Various type of clients, btw. Most of them are comfortable with the FCS workflow (events, corporate, documentary, training, etc.).
But there are some productions more "important" (commercial, high level corporate video).
No problem at all until today. I've already done a lot of commercials aired on national brodcast networks.

So, this seems a "nonsense" (if you have clients and you can satisfy them, why worry?).

But I want to know if these box are... more than some tools that "you-must-have" just to have your passport to the elite.

I want to know if they worth the money. I've read a lot of things about.

I've read many many times that the speed of this systems is really stunning. I've read also that today this is not-so-truth (about the speed).

I really don't know where is the (real) truth.

[M Most]

Well, if you've got the work to put through it, you'll most likely accomplish more, and accomplish it in a more polished way, with Discreet tools provided a couple of things are true - namely, that your work involves more than basic editorial (visual effects are where these systems really shine), and that you have an operator with a good deal of experience on either Smoke, Fire, Flame, or Inferno. If neither of these things are the case, then the added features, integrated nature of the toolset, and speed aren't going to buy you very much. If however, they are the case, then having the Autodesk solutions could help to make money for you. In the end, that's what it's about: the ability of your tools and your talent to make money. In the end, it's a business, and this is a business decision. It's not about platform religion, and it's not even about the basic cost of the toolset. It's about what your business is, where your clients are coming from, and what you can provide to make them happy. Only you can decide what the "right" answer is.

[Corrado Silveri]

Thanks mmost, I've understand. Just typing the Autodesk phone number (to arrange a private demo).

Damn, I wish I will carry with me some Redcode Raw files...

Ciao, Elcurado.

[Kyle Stauffer]

You're talking about playing rendered clips. I have never seen a Flame or any other computer based device that can do green screen extractions and create multilayer composites without rendering. The Linux based Flame and Inferno builds are indeed faster than the SGI builds they replace. But they are hardly real time for anything other than playing rendered clips.

Come on over and have a seat then my friend :) We did some tests with the Flame installer when he flew in to setup the new system and even he was amazed at the speed increase over previous versions. We really were doing composites and keying realtime, with no rendering. Color correction, etc on top of that... no rendering. Granted you still "render" once you've completed your task and want to commit it, but as far as working it's blazin'. When you do "render" it, it's almost instantaneous. The 3D tracker even fully tracked an 8 second shot in under a second.

Also, I think Inferno still runs on SGI, and hasn't made the linux jump yet, right?

[Simon Blackledge]

Inferno on Linux is out in Japan due to demand I recall.

s

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Inferno have been ported to linux . The only product i know that still working on Irix Onyx system is Fire (an NLE system like smoke but more faster , it's depends on how many processors you put on your SGI Onyx) .

I have read the post about discreet edit drop out . Autodesk now is leaving Irix for linux while many studios are not yet ready for that . All autodesk IFFS (inferno , flame , flint , smoke) are very handy and fast , but you can't learn them as fast as avid or FCP and they cost alot of $ . You can make the same composition with digital fusion, nuke , boujou and other softs for less money but it's time consuming for rendering and data exchange between them . Now the mixup of Irix and linux is a headache for autodesk .

Here is a summary on some autodesk products .

Flame (like mistika ex jaleo) is used by niche studios for commercials , music clips effects , where a production director want to see all the ideas with effects in real time . Smoke is sometimes used for editing and finishing jobs .
Inferno is used by big studios for final 4K complex compositing with fire for editing specially when some 3D animation scenes are involved.
Lustre is for color grading is from the original product named colossus that was purchased by discreet . Other products like scratch and Iridas speedgrade onset do the same job for less money and of course less facilities.
Toxik (ex 5D cyborg) can do compositing in collaborative work (like shake and nuke long time ago) but with thight interaction with other autodesk softs .
Combustion is the cheaper compositing product of autodesk and nobody knows if it future will be deadly like discreet edit .
The big advantage of autodesk IFFS is real time RGB<>YUV 4:4:4 conversion without quality loss . Quantel , Avid DS , Mistika and some other turnkey systems are almost at the same level .

Now the big hit that software industry may do is losless interactive codecs mastering (like cineform or bayer which are far more better than avid fcp and the rest) . If those codecs will be integrated with success into new or old NLE softwares , then monsters like IFFS , avid DS and Quantel won't be the same as right now . :innocent:

Regards .

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Discreet proceeded to can the product, team, and later the Combustion team.

Uhh... has anyone told the combustion team? They claim to still exist.

Mind you they are either lazy as all hell, gutted or else holding back for an awesome release, but they're at least still posting on forums claiming to be working.

[Lucas Wilson]

Lustre is for color grading is from the original product named colossus that was purchased by discreet.


The *original* product was SACC from ColorFront. SACC was licensed by 5D and repackaged as Colossus. When the product side of 5D went away, the IP was acquired by Discreet, which then renamed Colossus as Lustre.



Other products like scratch and Iridas speedgrade onset do the same job for less money and of course less facilities.


I'd like to hear where you think SCRATCH falls short of Lustre... do you have specific examples?



The big advantage of autodesk IFFS is real time RGB<>YUV 4:4:4 conversion without quality loss .


Sorry... this does not make a lot of sense to me. Internally, everything on the Autodesk Media Products runs at RGB. If you are dealing with YPbPr signal natively, I can understand why it doesn't necessarily make a difference, but why is it a significant advantage?

Lucas
-----
Drinker of Lattes
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Ace]

I'd like to hear where you think SCRATCH falls short of Lustre... do you have specific examples?

I think he was trying to say that scratch does the same job for less facilities required to do the job..

[Lucas Wilson]

I think he was trying to say that scratch does the same job for less facilities required to do the job..

Rereading it, I think you're right. Sorry Laroussi! :blink:

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Thanks Luki for the extra details on colossus . As usual i try to put the best informations i know (i get , read or experienced) . If your are a scratch member , dealer or like so , don't get hurt when i do some kind of comparison. Scratch is definitively one of the most used tool for grading . If i gave a lot of infos about autodesk products is just because they have a huge package of softwares from 3D to top level video and film motion . On the other side it's interesting to expect the arrival of new competitors with low prices and similar behaviors . That's why i pointed out the major key position of codecs on the market ; 4K with a data rate of 70 MB/S on esata is something impossible on avid , fcp or autodesk porducts , but WHY ?. Now if i have enough money i will get a dozen of softwares just because some tasks are so funny and easy to do on one of them but not all . And what's bad rignt now is the time lost in transcoding , rendering , linking ... data just because the rules are like this . Red one gave a good example of how "easy" to defeat those rules and give to the customers a top level camera for a real good bargain and without pushing him to a restricted and proprietary workflows , accessories , adaptors and so on . Even though the camera production hit the most difficult period and may be will fail , the idea and all the hard work done is a big challenge .
Autodesk and other companies are doing for film what adobe did for desktop publishing and multimedia (giving big packages of complementary softwares) but with a high price , a very high price . If the success of red one will gave a multicamera doing almost everthing with ease , well is not yet the case of video/cinema softwares .

Regards . :shifty:

[Corrado Silveri]

Hi,
just planned an Autodesk private Demo for tomorrow.
I've a LOT of question to ask at the technician...
BTW, if anyone (apart RT performance) can suggest me some specific points to achieve a good comparison between the systems, will be great.

Thanks in advance.

:innocent:

[Seán_T]

^^ Pester them about 32 bit float and limited range of QT codec's.
The other questions depend on which Autodesk system your seeing demod

[Corrado Silveri]

Thanks Seán_T.

I will post a report in a couple of days.

[Corrado Silveri]

Hi guys,
seen demoed a (linux-box) Autodesk Smoke. + Hints and speech about the other Autodesk products (Flint/Flame/Inferno). 2 hours.

Pros:
Really an impressive piece of software. 8192x8192 max res.
Extreme powerful keying, tracking, CC (Btw, all this features will be achieved with a good combo of OSX Apps - FCS2, Shake, Furnace plug, Bojou, Mokey/Monet/Motor).
The real difference is that here you will find all the tools you need in ONE, blazing fast and really well optimized app.
Interface fluid and snap in every situation (compare to Shake).
Transparent background renders. Btw you NEED to render out to finalize your works. It's fast, but you have to calculate Motion Blur, anti alias etc..


Cons:
Prince range (obvious) and storage/filesystem (you must do all the trick on a dedicate, very expensive array of disks named Stone - if you have multiple projects -or a very big one- you must swap the contents in and out...)

Conclusion
If you're working alone (without the client behind your shoulders) you can buy with the same money 3 or 4 FCS2+Shake very powerful workstations (BMD/AJA top solutions).
And a very large storage (xRaid or whatever). And you can setup a SAN. And you remain with some money to go out for a dinner with 20-30 friends...

But if you need blazing speed, top quality vfx, and you're always in a hurry... This is the solution. Sorry for your friends...

[Corrado Silveri]

Hi guys,
seen demoed a (linux-box) Autodesk Smoke. + Hints and speech about the other Autodesk products (Flint/Flame/Inferno). 2 hours.

Pros:
Really an impressive piece of software. 8192x8192 max res.
Extreme powerful keying, tracking, CC (Btw, all this features will be achieved with a good combo of OSX Apps - FCS2, Shake, Furnace plug, Bojou, Mokey/Monet/Motor).
The real difference is that here you will find all the tools you need in ONE, blazing fast and really well optimized app.
Interface fluid and snap in every situation (compare to Shake).
Transparent background renders. Btw you NEED to render out to finalize your works. It's fast, but you have to calculate Motion Blur, anti alias etc..


Cons:
Prince range (obvious) and storage/filesystem (you must do all the trick on a dedicate, very expensive array of disks named Stone - if you have multiple projects -or a very big one- you must swap the contents in and out...)

Conclusion
If you're working alone (without the client behind your shoulders) you can buy with the same money 3 or 4 FCS2+Shake very powerful workstations (BMD/AJA top solutions).
And a very large storage (xRaid or whatever). And you can setup a SAN. And you remain with some money to go out for a dinner with 20-30 friends...

But if you need blazing speed, top quality vfx, and you're always in a hurry... This is the solution. Sorry for your friends...




Any thoughts from anyone? :bye2:

[M Most]

But if you need blazing speed, top quality vfx, and you're always in a hurry...

And you don't have to be a computer expert, a networking expert, or a storage expert. And you also don't have to learn multiple programs, and figure out how to navigate your way around them, and how to pass material from one to the other.

You basically said this without directly saying it: Most artists just want to sit down, plug in a turnkey system, and work. With the best toolset in the business and with great speed. They don't want to deal with any of the issues above, nor are they experts in computer hardware. And that's why many facilities opt for Autodesk solutions, and make money with them. In the end, it's not about the basic acquisition cost - as many die-hard Apple fans seem to believe it is. It's about a business decision: how to get work done at a level that keeps your clients happy, keeps your artists working efficiently, and allows your business to be profitable.

[Corrado Silveri]

Agree.
You're are completely right.

Btw, It's really difficult to forget that Shake have a street price of $499.
And indeed Color (Silicon Color Final Touch HD - $25.000 until yesterday), is "virtually" free of charge.

If only that hp box with that extraordinary piece of software will cost a little bit less...

[Seán_T]

Any thoughts from anyone? :bye2:
Some additional info. Autodesk is going to open up their storage protocol so you can use more generic arrays, thats going to be a big cost saving for alot of people. And smoke has a pretty effective proxies setup that really speeds up the work flow, realtime 2k Colour grading etc.

It takes a special kind of artist to effectively fly a system like smoke/flame/DS, you really need to be a master of all trades, and like pressure!

I had a session recently with 15 people in the room and a cranky director, I was quite glad I wasn't on Final Cut and Shake in that session. (I'm also glad that someone else writes the check to buy such gear)

Regards Seán


P.s we've actually got a new smoke sitting in its boxes waiting to be installed in our new 11,000Sq ft facility :biggrin:

[Simon Blackledge]

No longer being tied to Stone arrays! Really! when did this happen ?

S

[Seán_T]

It was announced at NAB, I'm not sure if its happened yet.

[kvaga]

No stone? GREAT!
to Elcurado> IMHO about Flame/Smoke - it is human depended systems -
You can find tonns of FCP and Shake artists, but to find a Flame compositor
for full time work will be painfull...

[Simon Blackledge]

:calm: :wink:

[Stokestack]

Uhh... has anyone told the combustion team? They claim to still exist.

They do; they just don't work for ADSK anymore.

[Simon Blackledge]

Well I hope the work at Apple now..

[Lucas Wilson]

Well I hope the work at Apple now..

They do. Pretty well known that Guido Hucking is at Apple...

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The combustion team is working at Apple now but releasing under ADSK? I'm confused.