detachable back plate for buttons, similar to a car stereo's detachable face?

[Eugene]

Is there time to redesign the Red One? I heard some grumblings about the placement of the buttons on the back. Is there time to redesign it so the buttons are on the side? Could the buttons be on a detachable face? Could the detachable face be connected to to the handle bars?

I liked the photoshop image someone did of themself holding the Red One, and wearing a time tank and thump Oakleys. Could someone use Photoshop and add a detachable face of a car stereo to one of his hands.

What do people think of this?

http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/assets/foryou17.jpg

I would like a detachable face for the buttons. (The face, when detached, could be connected by a USB cable.) It would be anti-theft. But mainly it would help you in filming. If you use the Red Rail, you would have all the controls at your finger tips. They are not, when the Red is mounted on your shoulder and the buttons are on the back. If you use the Red on a tripod, a detachable face connected by a wire would allow you to push the buttons without jiggling the camera. Also if the buttons break, you just order a new face instead of sending in your precious Red for repairs. I don't know if a detachable face would help people designing under water camera housings. Let me know.

If a cheap $100 car stereo can have a detachable face, why can't a $17,000+ camera? Come on Red Team, make it happen. Or is all this talk of revoluion and listening to the customer just a lot of hype?

[Finner]

If possible that would be a great idea. I am possitive that having the user info and buttons available to use on the camera smart side would save Red a lot of complaints they will get about the camera as compared to only being on the rear.

[CVB]

The Red team has said repeatedly that the camera has usb to facilitate this kind of thing. Engineering wise I'd guess that something like your asking would add another month to the development. Red has had plently of input from the user base over the past year and I think its a little unfair to say that their listening to the customer is a bunch of hype... especially now... a few months before the release to market. They've had to pick and choose their battles wisely to pull this off in a year - so if the coffee warmer and 6 disc cd changer don't make it into the design because they decided that it was more important to work on the red cage thats fine by Me :)

[Rob Lohman]

Detachable sounds like something that would easily break or get lost. My car stereo is already seriously broken due to this detachable face and it's not like I put it on and off every day.

I would rather see an external control interface made by RED or another company that you connect to the USB port and allows you to do the critical stuff .

[Finner]

The Red team has said repeatedly that the camera has usb to facilitate this kind of thing. Engineering wise I'd guess that something like your asking would add another month to the development. Red has had plently of input from the user base over the past year and I think its a little unfair to say that their listening to the customer is a bunch of hype... especially now... a few months before the release to market. They've had to pick and choose their battles wisely to pull this off in a year - so if the coffee warmer and 6 disc cd changer don't make it into the design because they decided that it was more important to work on the red cage thats fine by Me :)

I agree the camera is a huge task. In the defense of having the information and buttons on the camera smart side can you tell me of one single camera that does not have the info screen and buttons on the camera smart side. If you research this I will be suprisied if you can find even one profesional camera that does not have this feature on the smart side I sure don't know of one other then Red. There is a reason for this. Now if my red camrea arives with it on the back I will live with it, It will still produce great images, I think it will become my favorite camera to work with and I will always hate, bitch and complain about the info and buttons being inconveniently located on the back.

[Eugene]

Ever hear of a TV company selling a TV with all the buttons on the back, and charging extra for a remote? It's the same thing except that it is a camera instead of a TV.

[Alex Boothby]

- so if the coffee warmer and 6 disc cd changer don't make it into the design because they decided that it was more important to work on the red cage thats fine by Me :)

WHAT?!?! NOOOOOOOOOOO.......

[Brook Willard]

Ever hear of a TV company selling a TV with all the buttons on the back, and charging extra for a remote? It's the same thing except that it is a camera instead of a TV.

So you would prefer the controls on the lens side of the camera?

[Ace]

So you would prefer the controls on the lens side of the camera?

The IR receiver can go on the front too!

[Stuart English]

We are always open to reasoned input -

Yes there are menu buttons and also a status display on the camera back, and that's not the traditional location.

Would be interested in any feedback on which of the buttons on the back of the camera you would prefer to have elsewhere on the camera body?

[Jared VanLeuven]

The 100-watt tally light's still on the front, right?


:D

[CVB]

Ever hear of a TV company selling a TV with all the buttons on the back, and charging extra for a remote? It's the same thing except that it is a camera instead of a TV.


My TV doesn't have any buttons :)

[Sanjin Jukic]

Let's have a look comparatively what is Arri D-20 have on both sizes of the camera body;
on the left size below is a little LCD with text and numbers, some other buttons,
see on the below picture

http://www.arri.de/prod/cam/d_20/prod_img/d20_head.jpg

on the right size there are many buttons and some input/output, the most of in/out things are on a back of the cam,
see the picture below

http://www.arri.de/prod/cam/d_20/prod_img/D-20_back_right_ivs.jpg

[Finner]

Its great to hear that you are open to possibly changing things with the buttons and display.

I feel very strongly that control of shutter, fps, acquisition format, and a read out screen of this information needs to be on the camera view finder side (smart side). So the 1st AC can quickly change and see this info at a glance. If it is not there you will have a lot of 1st AC's refusing to pull focus with this camera. If fps or shutter or aquisition is wrong then the 1st AC gets blamed so many will not want to go near this camera for that reason alone. Also when these mistakes are made on a shoot with a red camera (I say when because with this info not infront of an AC it will happen) you will have unhappy DOP's that will not see the advantages of the red but rather the high chance of mistakes to be made with that info on the back. The info and buttons on the back will hinder red being choosen for shoots. The buttons also need some form of a lock so they can not be accidentally bumped after being set.

One more thing the audio controls need to be accessable and functional while shooting and not in some seperate menu.

I am not bashing the red here, I have ordered one and think it is a good camera. Just feel there are some important things being over looked. If the info is left on the back red will lose some bussiness and if the next generation comes out with this info and controls on the smart side myself and I am sure many others will not be able to get rid of the camera with info on the back fast enough to buy one with it on the side.

I hope people don't bash me on this I am very excited about the camera its just unfortunate because controls and a info screen on the back is a major functional error.

[Mark B.]

I'd like the camera to maintain its ambidextrous functionality, so if a button is available on the left side of the camera it would also be nice if it's available on the same spot on the right side. If different functionality must be assigned to each button, then maybe the menu system could allow the camera to be set to either "right-handed" or "left-handed" operation, resulting in a flip-flop of the left and right side functionality.

If there is a usb detachable button/knob panel, then that would likely solve the problem of ambidexterity as well as helping to future-proof the camera. But I'm not in favor of the detachable panel unless it can be designed to hug the body as though they are one item.

And on a tangent: A remote control of the camera would be very useful, even if it's just two buttons to start it and stop it recording. Even better would be if the remote has an additional two buttons for power-on and power-off. Ok... a fifth button too, to take a snap shot.

[Finner]

Let's have a look comparatively what is Arri D-20 have on both sizes of the camera body;
on the left size below is a little LCD with text and numbers, some other buttons,
see on the below picture


on the right size there are many buttons and some input/output, the most of in/out things are on a back of the cam,
see the picture below


The controls on the Smart side or "left side" as you call it are every single control that has anything to do with changes of the camera fps,shutter,footage counter... and more. Also all the display info for what is happening with the camera is on that side.

On the Dummy side or "right side" is the power connector plug and the video assist unit that just controls what info and how the video output is set up for the directors/clients monitor. The outputs are bnc for monitors and some sync for spfx matching shots shooting. These buttons do not control anything for the camera itself.

Like you mention there are outputs and some inputs on the rear.

If Red was to set up their camera like this I would be very happy.

[Clayton Harper]

Benefits of controls on the side:

- It's quick to check the status of switches when you take you eye off the VF.
- If you're seated on an apple box or a dolly seat it's easier to check stuff.
- If you're going handheld you can shift it on your shoulder to get a look at the controls without pulling the camera off your shoulder all the way

Benefits of controls on the back:
- It's easier for the camera assistant to do all of these things while the operator stays on the camera, looking through the viewfinder. Don't forget we'll prolly want to have the LCD going as well as the EVF as seen in the updated camera renders on red.com

If the camera is a cinema product that will be operated by a crew and not just a single user, I say keep them on the back. The D-20 seems to fit this model although in this case the ports are switched with the controls.

I used to be in the hard-core "controls on the left" camp but I think I have switched sides now. The fact is that you can't really do the manual-focus lens thing without someone pulling focus and someone else operating.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The problem with placing buttons on the left side is it screws with the 15% or more people who would prefer them on the other side. With RED, there is no "smart side" or "viewfinder side" everything attaches where the user wants/needs it for the job at hand. Controls on the rear make the most logical sense given the practical uses of this camera. I think having the controls on a separate unit that can be mounted anywhere on any of the camera mount points and/or off camera would be a good idea. But I see that as an additional accessory and not what should be there as standard. Most users are going to find the controls to be just fine right where they are. When shooting with this camera on a tripod or steadycam, the controls are right where they should be.

...Or at least that's how I see it. Having not seen any of this RED stuff with my own eyes yet.

[Blaine Golden]

The problem with placing buttons on the left side is it screws with the 15% or more people who would prefer them on the other side.Yeah, are you trying to show a bias against left-handed users? :D

[Finner]

Benefits of controls on the back:
- It's easier for the camera assistant to do all of these things while the operator stays on the camera, looking through the viewfinder. Don't forget we'll prolly want to have the LCD going as well as the EVF as seen in the updated camera renders on red.com


I have to disagree 100%. I worked as a focus puller for 7 years on various movies (Unforgiven, Legends of the fall and many other features) I would have never ever wanted the info and controls or have I ever worked with experienced focus puller profesionals that would want the controls and info on any side but the "Smart side". The camera smart side was given that nickname because it is where all the controls and info need to be. Now as a cameraman I do not want my focus puller not to be able to see the info right in front of them. The info and buttons are actually easier for the focus puller to reach on the side then in the back when the camera op stays on the camera.

[Finner]

Most users are going to find the controls to be just fine right where they are.



No I do not believe they are. Don't you think that if it was a good idea they would be on another camera at the back. It has become an industry standard because it works best. Profesionals in this industry try lots of different things and are creative but there are some things that are best to keep an industry standard and information and contol access in view and accessable to the focus puller is one of them.

[Appleton]

I have to disagree 100%. I worked as a focus puller for 7 years on various movies (Unforgiven, Legends of the fall and many other features) I would have never ever wanted the info and controls or have I ever worked with experienced focus puller profesionals that would want the controls and info on any side but the "Smart side". The camera smart side was given that nickname because it is where all the controls and info need to be. Now as a cameraman I do not want my focus puller not to be able to see the info right in front of them. The info and buttons are actually easier for the focus puller to reach on the side then in the back when the camera op stays on the camera.Can you give some examples where you needed the shutter, fps, footage counter info. pulling focus during a shot ?

[Finner]

Can you give some examples where you needed the shutter, fps, footage counter info. pulling focus during a shot ?

Sure I can give you one but I have many more if you want. On the movie "The Edge" there was a large set up in the scene where the plane that Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin were in crashing into a mountain lake. I was hanging off the side of China-mans peak as the focus puller with the operator above the Canmore resevoir. At the last second the DOP called us on the radio to change from a 45 degree shutter to a 180 and do a slow motion shot instead so I had to change the camera to a different frame rate as well. If the info and buttons were on the back we would of had to of been pulled back up to the top of the peak by the SPFX riggers and change settings then get lowered back again. All this would have taken at least a half hour. But because the controls were where they should be it took about 30 seconds with the arri 435.

This is one of many examples I could give you. Things change fast and furious on set and functionality is key. A focus puller can do there job much better with the info and controls on the smart side.

[Appleton]

Things change fast and furious on set and functionality is key. Thanks for the ex.

Spikes field tests may reveal the same idea. Perhaps a basic & small LCD on the left side with basic access ?

[Finner]

Can you give some examples where you needed the shutter, fps, footage counter info. pulling focus during a shot ?

One more thing. Below is one of the procedures a qualified focus puller does before calling speed on camera when asked to roll camera.

When roll camera is called a good focus puller will move from the lens back to the info screen. They will first check the focus on the lens then the T-stop to make sure exposure is set right and then hit the roll button and take a quick glance at the info screen to confirm that the FPS and Shutter is set properly. Then they will call speed on camera. This results in very few mistakes.

So to answer your question from above a focus puller needs this info every single time they roll.

[Finner]

.

Spikes field tests may reveal the same idea. Perhaps a basic & small LCD on the left side with basic access ?

I sure hope so. your idea of a small info LCD and a few basic controls would be perfect.

[Clayton Harper]

The info and buttons are actually easier for the focus puller to reach on the side then in the back when the camera op stays on the camera.

Not if they are on the operator's side and blocked when he/she has their eye on the VF which is the case for most HD cameras without some sort of eyepiece extender and leveler. This scheme has been inherited from an ENG style of operation where you are doing you own settings in the field.

I agree about the concept of the "smart side" but one side seems to be reserved for ports right now. I think the 1st AC may have to become comfortable pulling on the opposite side of the camera with this little red camera.

This whole debate may be rendered mute when they demonstrate camera settings being modified via a wifi input on a PDA or a wired remote, etc.

[Finner]

Not if they are on the operator's side and blocked when he/she has their eye on the VF which is the case for most HD cameras. This scheme has been inherited from an ENG style of operation where you are doing you own settings in the field.
.

It was not inherited from ENG style cameras. Film cameras way before video was even invented have this feature. Sure on the really old film cameras the information is just a simple footage counter or even possibly a fps control but it is always on the camera smart side. As far as operators being in the way of the info screen when their eye is on the VF, from the cameras (ARRI, AATON, Movie Cam, Panavision etc.) I have worked with that is not the case. The info screen is always viewable. Even the new generation of HD sony and the Panavision Genesis have made the info screen able to be seen by the AC when the Op is in place, so it is visable.

Now quite often if the operator will be in the way of the buttons but a focus puller will usually find time when the camera man does not have his eye to the eyepiece to make changes and if not the AC can just ask the OP to lean back for a second. In some situations with the buttons being in the back a change would almost be impossible. For example when strapped in to a seat on a large crane with an operator the AC can just ask the OP to lean back but if the info is on the back it will be very difficult or maybe even impossible for the AC to make changes. Now you may say the AC can just step off the crane and walk around the OP to the back of the camera. This is not possible because the crane is weighted for the camera the AC and the OP.

Trust me on this there is problem after problem with this camera if the info and buttons are not on the smart side. If red just wants to build a camera that can really compete against other high quality feature level cameras they should have an info screen and some menu access buttons on the camera smart side.

[Stuart English]

In this application our compact HD-LCD monitor will offer a lot of the data requested - fps, shutter and lens data as reported by the follow focus system.

It provides options for graphics such as frame guides, histogram (exposure) and focus . It's mountable pretty much wherever you might need it.

On the "smart side" are a RECORD button and two User Keys, which can be used for on-the-fly value adjustments or as camera mode change triggers.

There is an SD Card slot in this general location compatible with 802.11 (or other standard) wireless transceivers to interface with an external controller.

[Finner]

This sounds like it should work great Stuart. Its great to see you are so dedicated to your customers. In a production shooting situation an evf for the Op and a LCD for the AC will be a great combination.

Just a few more questions:

Are you thinking of some kind of button lock so there is no chance of bumping the buttons after they are set?

Are the audio controls going to be turn knobs that are readily accessible for the operator to change quickly if needed (Inf small crew efp/eng situations)?

Thanks

PS- Stuart please disregard the PM. I sent it before I saw your post.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I am very proud to have guys like Peter and Mike with a huge experience about cameras and lenses here in Vienna. Looking forward to meet them soon/February for a chat about the RED ONE.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Its great to hear that you are open to possibly changing things with the buttons and display.

I feel very strongly that control of shutter, fps, acquisition format, and a read out screen of this information needs to be on the camera view finder side (smart side). So the 1st AC can quickly change and see this info at a glance. If it is not there you will have a lot of 1st AC's refusing to pull focus with this camera. If fps or shutter or aquisition is wrong then the 1st AC gets blamed so many will not want to go near this camera for that reason alone. Also when these mistakes are made on a shoot with a red camera (I say when because with this info not infront of an AC it will happen) you will have unhappy DOP's that will not see the advantages of the red but rather the high chance of mistakes to be made with that info on the back. The info and buttons on the back will hinder red being choosen for shoots. The buttons also need some form of a lock so they can not be accidentally bumped after being set.

One more thing the audio controls need to be accessable and functional while shooting and not in some seperate menu.

I am not bashing the red here, I have ordered one and think it is a good camera. Just feel there are some important things being over looked. If the info is left on the back red will lose some bussiness and if the next generation comes out with this info and controls on the smart side myself and I am sure many others will not be able to get rid of the camera with info on the back fast enough to buy one with it on the side.

I hope people don't bash me on this I am very excited about the camera its just unfortunate because controls and a info screen on the back is a major functional error.

Mike, I am totally agree with your opinion. When I saw the first time the RED renderings my immediate complaint was the "status display" on a back side. I think you would not be able to watch the "status display" sometimes properly especially in a different set or handheld situations because you have attached the RED drives or battery set in the front of the "status display" to balance the camera. You could put the drives and batteries on top but still you have to turn and move back your head that is somehow disturbing during shooting when you try fixing your head movement to catch with your eye EVF all the time. That was my idea about Head Video Eyewear with the possibilities to turn glasses starting from 0° - 90° to 180° up and down. So you do not need to fix your eye to catch EVF. It is something with a better/higher resolution and easy to focus and is on your head already attached. If the "status display" is on a "smart side" than you turn glasses up and also turn your head a bit on the right and see what is going on there on the "status display". Easy to use, easy to shoot, EASY TO SHOOT 4K that's all we want from the RED ONE.

http://red.com/images/photo/redone_25.jpg

[Stuart English]

Just to clarify, the LCD on the back of the camera does not have video on it, its a high contrast status display - for current timecode, fps, shutter, ISO etc.

The other LCD being discussed is an attach where you want HD-LCD with HD video, framing guides, audio levels ... plus all the above same data superimposed.

As of course does the Viewfinder.

[Stuart English]

"Are the audio controls going to be turn knobs that are readily accessible for the operator to change quickly if needed (Inf small crew efp/eng situations)?"

Finner - can you elaborate on that question for me please ?

[Clayton Harper]

Stuart,

I think Finner means actual dedicated physical knobs as to opposed to a menu-based control.

[Finner]

Clayton above me here worded my question much better then I did.

I will give an example. If I am driving down the road and see a bunch of wild animals I would like to shoot I would want to be able to grab the camera and start shooting right away. Just grab my frame and be able to quickly adjust the audio while shooting by turning dedicated phisical audio adjustment knobs (I assume there will be an audio channel peaking display in the veiw finder and external LCD picture display screen). If the audio controls are in the menu system It will be next to impossible to adjust audio levels in on the fly shooting situations.

I sure hope this is clear, I find it difficult sometimes to convey my thoughts through a keyboard.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Mike, I am totally agree with your opinion. When I saw the first time the RED renderings my immediate complaint was the "status display" on a back side. I think you would not be able to watch the "status display" sometimes properly especially in a different set or handheld situations because you have attached the RED drives or battery set in the front of the "status display" to balance the camera. You could put the drives and batteries on top but still you have to turn and move back your head that is somehow disturbing during shooting when you try fixing your head movement to catch with your eye EVF all the time. That was my idea about Head Video Eyewear with the possibilities to turn glasses starting from 0° - 90° to 180° up and down. So you do not need to fix your eye to catch EVF. It is something with a better/higher resolution and easy to focus and is on your head already attached. If the "status display" is on a "smart side" than you turn glasses up and also turn your head a bit on the right and see what is going on there on the "status display". Easy to use, easy to shoot, EASY TO SHOOT 4K that's all we want from the RED ONE.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/redone_25_web.jpg

The picture shows a possible new "status display" position that is easy for a shooter to see and control during a work. A shooter just have to move head and eye a bit on the right side especially in a handheld situation (on the fly) when he/she moves with the camera because does not need to turn and move whole head back to see what is written at the "status display" like it would be with the old position. I think it is very important part of the camera design and usability. But only if it's possible to turn and place it on the left side. If not we should take it like it is now.

[Finner]

In this application our compact HD-LCD monitor will offer a lot of the data requested - fps, shutter and lens data as reported by the follow focus system.

It provides options for graphics such as frame guides, histogram (exposure) and focus . It's mountable pretty much wherever you might need it.

On the "smart side" are a RECORD button and two User Keys, which can be used for on-the-fly value adjustments or as camera mode change triggers.

There is an SD Card slot in this general location compatible with 802.11 (or other standard) wireless transceivers to interface with an external controller.

Sanjin

I think the answer Stuart gives here will work great for almost all situations. It is a very good solution.

Now I just look forward to hearing the answer on the audio because if it is located in a menu that will be a problem.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Stuart and Finner. OK. Accepted.

[Stuart English]

Before I can answer that question, we need to get some clarifiction of the meaning of : being "able to quickly adjust the audio while shooting by turning dedicated phisical audio adjustment knobs"

For example, how many channels of audio are you expecting to adjust. From what location on the camera? What monitoring options are you expecting?

[Steve Sherrick]

What they are asking for is what you would expect to see on may Pro video cameras and even the DVX100. Basically knobs that are recessed when they are set and you push them to pop them out to adjust. It's like a rotary knob on a mixer. You only need two because you can have a switch that changes the control from first 2 channels to other 2 channels. I agree that this is probably an important feature and shouldn't be overlooked.

Steve

[Greg Voevodsky]

Sorry lefties... but pleasing 85% on the right is better than 0% percent on the back covered with batteries. Thank God, humans are adaptable - it's amazing how lefties learn to write left to right upside down, on right handed desks! Amazing... Maybe we could mount the camera upside down on the left and flip it in post... ;-) Seriously though, keep it on the back for the lefties, and let us righties have it where the rest of the world works.

[Finner]

Before I can answer that question, we need to get some clarifiction of the meaning of : being "able to quickly adjust the audio while shooting by turning dedicated phisical audio adjustment knobs"

For example, how many channels of audio are you expecting to adjust. From what location on the camera? What monitoring options are you expecting?

2 knobs would work great as just as Steve describes them maybe have 1 knob that you can switch controls between channels 1 & 2 and a knob that you can switch between channels 3 & 4. They could pop out as Steve mentions or even just be a disc that spins like on sony beta and HD cameras or even maybe a great system you guys come up with. The important part is that while shooting you can reach the spot on the camera where it is at and adjust it without having to lose the shot. It will usually only be needed on the fly for quick and dirty shooting. I will give an example below:

Lets say you are working on a documentary about the environment and and you are located somewhere where the president is walking by you. Your reporter will maybe have time to ask one or two questions before the president walks by. You have no idea ahead of time how loud or quiet the president will talk so you need to be able to adjust the audio channels while rolling on the interview. In this situation and many others you would not have time to ask the president if he could just say a few things to get audio levels set before the actual questions get asked.

As far as monitoring the audio levels their should be audio level bars that show up in the viewfinder and picture LCD so you can see when they are set to peak. This audio viewing feature could be turned on or off in a menu somewhere so that when you are shooting documentary/EFP/Eng style you could have it on if you wanted and when shooting with a sound man with a mixer you could just turn that audio viewing feature off.

This is a feature that is an absolute must for doc/EFP/ENG shooters so they should be really speaking up for this. I am a commercial/tv series/feature guy but I do the odd EFP style work so I know I will need it from time to time. I am not quite sure why more are not speaking up on this issue. This is a standard feature on any camera over $3,000 so its not like its a new thing or something out of the ordinary. It is a standard feature that is often used on any profesional camera.

If someone could find and post some pictures of what they look like on a HD sony or even the HVX or DVX would be great. Everyone who ordered the camera needs to speak up for this or you will be very disapointed if this camera does not have this feature (The camera will be much less versitile and for people who want to rent out there camera it will be in much lower demand).

Sorry for this being so long but I guess I was doing a poor job of explaining this feature in my shorter posts.

[Alex Boothby]

And auto limiters - would they work? It would be nice if some things like this could be switched to auto mode... or am I dreaming?

[Finner]

Audio limiters are for $500 handi-cams not profesional cameras. They will work in a pinch but how does it know which sound you are actually setting the audio for.

I forgot to answer your one other question Stuart about where the audio knobs should be located? Personally it does not matter to me where they are located as users will get used to where ever you guys feel is the most convienient place to put them, They just absolutely have to be in a position that can be reached while shooting.

[Alex Boothby]

Audio limiters are for $500 handi-cams not profesional cameras. They will work in a pinch but how does it know which sound you are actually setting the audio for.

Not knowing much about audio I was imagining that for narrative productions all 4 audio channels would be run through a mixer and levels set by a professional audio guy. But for run and gun ENG scenarios like you described I'd be grateful of an auto mode - as an option.



I forgot to answer your one other question Stuart about where the audio knobs should be located? Personally it does not matter to me where they are located as users will get used to where ever you guys feel is the most convienient place to put them, They just absolutely have to be in a position that can be reached while shooting.

How about the smart side. Bottom left. :)

[Cam McGrath]

Long live the sound recordist! :)

What about a remote fader (pot) you could plug in and say velcro to the handle/cage/tripod handle etc??

[Finner]

Long live the sound recordist! :)

What about a remote fader (pot) you could plug in and say velcro to the handle/cage/tripod handle etc??

they need to be on the camera

[CVB]

Long live the sound recordist! :)

What about a remote fader (pot) you could plug in and say velcro to the handle/cage/tripod handle etc??

Velcro? c'mon... I'm sure theres a better solution than that :)

[Nick Shaw]

Audio limiters are for $500 handi-cams not profesional cameras.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Don't most professional ENG cameras have auto modes on the audio? We are talking about good quality limiters here, not horrible auto gain controls that gradually creep up an up during quiet patches, then clamp down hard as soon as somebody talks.

I personally would prefer the Red to have a limiter which could be switched on and off. Most of the time, if the audio level is set correctly, a limiter has no effect on the signal. But in the situation where there is a sudden increase in audio level, a bit of compression is a lot more acceptable than clipping.

This is obviously only useful for ENG/documentary work. For drama obviously you would have a sound recordist, and if the audio clips you just do a re-take.

Nick

[Finner]

Your right Nick every profesional camera HD/beta that I have worked with has audio limiters as a feature but they are only used in rare occasions. Most profesionals take the 10 seconds or so to set a level themselves.

[Alex Boothby]

Another audio idea: it would be cool if RED could offer an "audio only mode" for doing wild takes of dialogue. No reason to take up valuable picture data if you are just recording wild sound.

[donatello b]

there seems to be 2 needs here ..
1) solo cameraperson need controls in X place ...
2) if using a AC = needs controls in totally different places ..

can't there be some kind of remote LCD unit ( for shutter,fps etc - not picture) that plugs into body and then attaches anywhere one would like it on camera ?

i don't mind the info on the back LCD ..for some situations i might prefer having the info so i can see it below the EFV ( might even look at it with left eye as right eye is viewing thru EFV ... if i have a AC i know they would like it on whatever side of the camera they are using to pull focus ... now of course this remote LCD would be a accessory at extra $$$

[Alex Boothby]

A similar topic was discussed back in September, regarding the ability to record audio while shooting off-speed.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=72815

At the time Greame replied:

"I think all we can do for audio in off-speed modes is record it to a seperate file and let you do with it what you will."

I certainly hope that this is still being considered as it would be a REALLY valuable function.

But now I'm getting WAY off topic.

[Stuart English]

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

If you are operating with an A/C and/or a sound guy how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? Two, four, none ? Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

We need to break each of these case out for a full discussion ..

BTW: Audio level meters are available in the EVF, the attach where you like HD-LCD disply and can be made available in the rear status monitor if nedeed..

[Finner]

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

I will try and address this question the best I can. I am much more of a commercial/feature shooter though then an EFP/ENG guy so it would be great for some people with more experience in this field to weigh in on this. I think Gibby with all the experience he has in this area could shed some better light on it.

Heres what I feel. In a single user situation I think access to adjust 2 channels of audio would be good enough (1 channel for the interviewers mic and one for the ambient shotgun mic mounted on the camera). I would not really want to use them as a stereo pair as I would probably only use the interview mic and have the camera mount sound just as a safety. As far as where the location of the "pots" to set the level goes it really does not to me as long as it can be reached with one hand while shooting. I have no idea about the engineering challenges you guys are facing to make this camera fit together and work so it would be unfair for me to say that the "pots" have to be in X position. I think the best determining factor of where the "pots" should go would be if you guys on the red team discussed and figured out the various positions the pots could go and then throw one of the test bodies on your shoulder and reach around to those different positions on the camera that you could put them. At that point it should be easy to determine the best position for the audio control "pots".

Upon thinking on this further in EFP/ENG shoulder shooting you are usually holding the camera with your shoulder and right hand to balance it and use your left hand to adjust focus, iris, zoom (if not power zoom) and audio. So the "pots" should be located somewhere that can be reached with your left hand. So I guess audio adjustment pots would be best on the viewfinder or smart side of the camera. Also before people start bringing up "Left hand bigotry" I do not believe that current cameras are really that hard for left handers the way they are set up. In fact traditional beta and HD cameras could be argued to be more left hand "friendly" because you use your left hand for a lot more on the camera then your right. Now left eye dominant people they have a problem but thats a whole different thread.


If you are operating with an A/C and/or a sound guy how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? Two, four, none ? Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

When I am shooting production style with my AC and a sound guy I do not give much of a second thought about audio. I trust my sound guy and just ask him before we move on to the next shot if the sound was good. I find in production set up situations I have way to much on my mind with lighting, camera movement and actors to worry about sound. A sound profesional would be a much better resource to answer this question.




BTW: Audio level meters are available in the EVF, the attach where you like HD-LCD disply and can be made available in the rear status monitor if nedeed..

This sounds like it will work great.

I hope this input helps.

[Eric MacIver]

It's always nice to have hard switches/dials for audio levels. On a narrative production, when there is a sound mixer on site it's always distracting and disconcerting to have to move away from the camera so that they can get into the menu to adjust settings. I always worry (uselessly) that they might mess up one of my settings. However, if there's a dedicated area of tactile sound controls, it seems easier for everyone.

It's even more important for an ENG setup.

As for placement, I think the back is OK (especially for narrative) but for ENG, I think the dumb side would be nice.

As for number of channels, in both situations it's nice to have one level control for each input (so, that'd be four), but of course it'd be nice if this camera solved world hunger too.

[Alex Boothby]

As for placement, I think the back is OK (especially for narrative) but for ENG, I think the dumb side would be nice.
.

Why the dumb side? Wouldn't the camera op require easy access for ENG shoulder mounted run-&-gun type stuff? There seems to be room on the left SMART SIDE of the camera - just in front of the data port / flash unit.

[Finner]

As for placement, I think the back is OK (especially for narrative) but for ENG, I think the dumb side would be nice.



Hi sorry but I edited my thinking above and think that the smart side is where audio adjustment knobs need to be. I realized that the shooters shoulder and right hand are used for balacing the camera and that I use my left hand to make adjustments so the audio "pots" or knobs need to be on the smart side as it would be very tough to reach the dummy side or back with your left hand.

[Bret Weeks]

I agree - ENG / EFP style would require smart side adjustment so you can get to it without having to take your eye off the viewfinder-

2 channels max - if you're riding more than 2 then you need a sound guy with a mixer-

[Cam McGrath]

If the control pots (2 of course, switchable to CH3,4 in menu) were located on the back, this would suit perfectly for work with a sound rec...then perhaps a single pot on the very front, somewhere under the lens mount that could have say either CH 1 or 2 assigned to it...for riding levels on the fly of either an external mic or the camera mic...auto gain in my opinion works well enough to have it, should you find yourself in a situation that warrants its use, but where possible should be avoided.

[Eric MacIver]

Why the dumb side? Wouldn't the camera op require easy access for ENG shoulder mounted run-&-gun type stuff? There seems to be room on the left SMART SIDE of the camera - just in front of the data port / flash unit.

I think the smart side is OK, but generally in narrative, it's nice when the op/ac are on the smart side of the camera, that if there's a sound issue, sound can come make a quick tweak without interfering with those two.

For ENG ops, it generally isn't too difficult to remember which knobs correspond to each channel on the right (dumb) side of the camera... So the left hand comes up and supports the camera while the right hand slides back and makes the adjustment without ever taking they eye off the viewfinder (where the audio level readouts are).

It's also nice when it's on the dumb side because there's a very distinct separation - VIDEO controls on the smart side, AUDIO controls on the dumb side - less room for mistakes.

Though, perhaps I'm in the minority with this train of thought.

[Finner]

If the control pots (2 of course, switchable to CH3,4 in menu) were located on the back, this would suit perfectly for work with a sound rec...then perhaps a single pot on the very front, somewhere under the lens mount that could have say either CH 1 or 2 assigned to it...for riding levels on the fly of either an external mic or the camera mic...auto gain in my opinion works well enough to have it, should you find yourself in a situation that warrants its use, but where possible should be avoided.

I think it is probably best to put audio controls together and not have 1 switch here and 1 switch there kind of situation.

[Finner]

I think the smart side is OK, but generally in narrative, it's nice when the op/ac are on the smart side of the camera, that if there's a sound issue, sound can come make a quick tweak without interfering with those two.

For ENG ops, it generally isn't too difficult to remember which knobs correspond to each channel on the right (dumb) side of the camera... So the left hand comes up and supports the camera while the right hand slides back and makes the adjustment without ever taking they eye off the viewfinder (where the audio level readouts are).

It's also nice when it's on the dumb side because there's a very distinct separation - VIDEO controls on the smart side, AUDIO controls on the dumb side - less room for mistakes.

Though, perhaps I'm in the minority with this train of thought.

From experience it would become quite a pain to have to switch hands to reach around and set the audio level. Also if there is a HD lens on with a hand mount and zoom like on every beta and HD camera out it would be pretty much impossible to switch hands.

Your narritive sound point is actually almost a non issue. The sound guy sets the level on the camera to tone before you begin shooting and then locks those channels. From there the sound man will do all control of sound from his mixer so unless there is a sound meltdown (in which case the OP and AC would want to step back and let the sound guy do his job) the problem of the sound guy getting in the way will happen very very rarely.

[Eric MacIver]

From experience it would become quite a pain to have to switch hands to reach around and set the audio level. Also if there is a HD lens on with a hand mount and zoom like on every beta and HD camera out it would be pretty much impossible to switch hands.

Your narritive sound point is actually almost a non issue. The sound guy sets the level on the camera to tone before you begin shooting and then locks those channels. From there the sound man will do all control of sound from his mixer so unless there is a sound meltdown (in which case the OP and AC would want to step back and let the sound guy do his job) the problem of the sound guy getting in the way will happen very very rarely.

I agree about switching hands... I guess I'm just thinking that on some of the cameras I've shot with, the controls have been on the smart side but they've been impossible to adjust without "bumping" the shot. That would need to be avoided.

You're also right about the sound guy getting in the way - though I have had that happen on a few occassions, and it's best not to lose the take whenever possible. Of course if they have a mixer, as they usually do it's still a non-issue.

Regardless, I think the best situation is to have four easily reachable levels in an area completely seperate from any video controls.

[Martin Drew]

Your right Nick every profesional camera HD/beta that I have worked with has audio limiters as a feature but they are only used in rare occasions. Most profesionals take the 10 seconds or so to set a level themselves.

I disagree. The limiter is not to set level, it is to protect against overload. Sure you set the level but when someone unexpectedly shrieks next to the mic, the audio limits gracefully rather than clips. I view a pair of limiters switchable to stereo as pretty much essential for uncontrolled environments.

What you are describing sounds more like the auto gain control.

M

[ericyoung]

Had some thoughts (related ergonomics topic) on the body form in this post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1388#post1388

Any thoughts on these Stuart?

Thanks!
Eric

[Gordon Prince]

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/redone_25_web.jpg

The picture shows a possible new "status display" position that is easy for a shooter to see and control during a work. A shooter just have to move head and eye a bit on the right side especially in a handheld situation (on the fly) when he/she moves with the camera because does not need to turn and move whole head back to see what is written at the "status display" like it would be with the old position. I think it is very important part of the camera design and usability. But only if it's possible to turn and place it on the left side. If not we should take it like it is now.

Agreed... but taking this one:
It's mountable pretty much wherever you might need it.


I'm lost... where do I miss the point? Didn't you notice it first, Third Man? Or do I miss something here?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Agreed... but taking this one:

I'm lost... where do I miss the point? Didn't you notice it first, Third Man? Or do I miss something here?

It is about a status display, LCD is another thing.

"My dream" showed me something like:..."on the side it has a high contrast status display that is highly visible in direct sunlight and with adjustable back-lighting - for current timecode, fps, shutter, ISO, audio modulometer, etc."
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=249

[Stuart English]

The status display is on the back. Not the left side nor the right.

There is a secondary HD-LCD video dispay that you can mount anywhere you wish on the camera frame that will allow operators ( such as an A/C ) that need to see details such as fps, shutter, framing etc those capabilities.

For the cameraman, your'e going to be looking in the viewfinder, or perhaps this second HD-LCD, so the data is already there.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks, I've got it! Finally!!!

[Finner]

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

If you are operating with an A/C and/or a sound guy how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? Two, four, none ? Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

We need to break each of these case out for a full discussion ..

BTW: Audio level meters are available in the EVF, the attach where you like HD-LCD disply and can be made available in the rear status monitor if nedeed..


Hi Stuart

Did you get the input you were looking for with these questions?

[Finner]

Stuart I see you just posted.

I was just wondering if you got the input back that you were asking for here?

Is there any more information or ideas you would like on this?

[Stuart English]

YUP - thanks all...

[Gopher77]

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

If you are operating with an A/C and/or a sound guy how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? Two, four, none ? Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

We need to break each of these case out for a full discussion ..

BTW: Audio level meters are available in the EVF, the attach where you like HD-LCD disply and can be made available in the rear status monitor if nedeed..


What I find if I'm in a single operator setting I'm not riding sound levels, I take a sound test before camera rolls and hope the talent doesn't get too excited during the take. So in a single camera situation I don't think it matters much. Now what I do to cover, if I have only one mic in use is I split the audio to both inputs and run one a little hotter then the other, so if one side clips I have the other. With four inputs this will work even better. If I have an AC I have never had them ride sound I would not want anyone touching the camera, taking a chance on bumping the picture to adjust a sound level. That just doesn't seem practical, so again it wouldn't matter. I don't even like an AC pulling focus without a whip.

If I'm running dual sound I'll probably have a wireless feed to the camera for synch sound only, the sound levels will be done by the mixer and recored elsewhere.

So as far as the sound pots go, anywhere I can get to them without major effort to set sound levels in an audio test right before the camera rolls. I like the kind that click in and out. You can push it and it pops out to adjust levels. Then push it back in so you don't inadverently move it.

[Finner]

Gopher

If you read back in this thread I believe you will find info on everything you mention. I don't believe anyone mentioned a camera man actually riding the audio durring a shot. Although sometimes in an ENG/EFP shooting position a camera man does not have the luxury of doing a sound test with the subject as it may be a scrum or high level VIP walking by the camera.

As far as the best place to put the audio pots I think most people came to the conclusion that they would be best to be on the camera smart side as ENG/EFP operators are often balancing the camera on there shoulder and holding it with there right hands. So your left hand is free to adjust focus, T-stop, zoom (if not on right hand grip) and the audio pots if you find it is necesary to adjust them. I agree with you that it is best to set the audio levels before hand but sometimes things change in a hurry and sometimes the level they are set at in the begining are wrong.

PS- I think you will find if you have the chance to work with a really experienced AC you will not even notice them pulling focus. I have also been in the position of working with a heavy handed focus puller, not fun.

[Finner]

I think the back panel is over-rated. Think of it as the small LCD on the top right of a DSLR. Quick setting info. All the major info will be on the screen (color LCD or EVF). Moving the back panel around would be a waste of time.

Jim

When this thread started I had no idea all the pertinent info would be in the EVF or color LCD. After learning that and that there would be adjustment buttons on the smart side everything made sense.

Just one question have you decided if there will be some form of a button lock to avoid them being bumped accidently after being set?

Thanks for you and your teams openness to opinions.

[ericyoung]

...if I have only one mic in use is I split the audio to both inputs and run one a little hotter then the other, so if one side clips I have the other. With four inputs this will work even better....So as far as the sound pots go ... I like the kind that click in and out. You can push it and it pops out to adjust levels. Then push it back in so you don't inadvertently move it.

It would be good to be able to switch a single mic to any or all of the inputs for this reason. Although the push in/out knobs are good - the spring strength is important. Too light, and the knobs pop out too easy, too strong and the camera could be nudged everytime the knobs are pushed! Ergonomics make a huge difference.

[Mark B.]

Or inset the knobs so that the fingers have to reach into a depression to make contact with the knob.

[Joel Kaye]

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?


To me I think 4 knobs on the left of the camera is the way to go but a 1/2 and 3/4 switch would work. For that much real estate why not just stick 4 small knobs there? 4 knobs is more ergonomic and probably easier to do.

Also, another trick we've been using for years is mapping one audio input to multiple tracks and having each track set to different input levels.

IMAGINE you're running and gunning with one microphone recording to all 4 tracks. All 4 tracks are set to different levels thus giving you a VERY wide dynamic range that could be chopped together in post. Ideally you would be able to map any audio input to any track.

That exact setup (with 1 mic mapped to 2 tracks with different levels) has really saved my butt many times. One of the two tracks usually gets something usable.

Get a JVC HD-100. They do it pretty well for two tracks. At the bare MINIMUM the HD-100 amount of functionality should be built into RED.

edit - guess I should have read the whole thread first. I see others have mentioned similar ideas.

[Finner]

joelnet

I don't shoot ENG style that often but I had never thought of laying down one mic to multiple channels at different levels. Thats genius.

[Joel Kaye]

joelnet

I don't shoot ENG style that often but I had never thought of laying down one mic to multiple channels at different levels. Thats genius.


Yeah, the first time I heard that idea I think I said "Can you run that by me one more time?" Then I said "friggin' brilliant!!"

With Red you could have 2 shotguns on different actors both mixed to two tracks each with different levels. You don't really need a mixer at that point...you're gonna get a decent signal whether they are whispering or shouting in most cases.

(If RED did 8 tracks it would be even more fun... lapels and shotguns and multiple levels.)

[Steve Sherrick]

ENG, yes. Film shoots, I still think audio is best handled separately with a reference track sent to camera. Leaves each operator with full control over their gear. Less tethers to the camera, more flexibility in shooting. ENG, or run and gun style of shooting has its own set of demands, so sure anything that helps you with making it possible for one operator to get both video and audio is a good thing. I think REd will have to see what works best for their design.

[ericyoung]

...So as far as the sound pots go ... I like the kind that click in and out. You can push it and it pops out to adjust levels. Then push it back in so you don't inadvertently move it.


Or inset the knobs so that the fingers have to reach into a depression to make contact with the knob.

Inset knobs like on the HVX200? - certainly cheaper and simpler than the "push in/out to adjust" type of knob, although more fiddly and less positive, especially if you have big fingers, or gloves on.

Thought a backward step on the HVX200 over the DVX100 was the loss of the menu joystick in favour of the "cross" of buttons on top. Much harder to use without looking each time.

[ericyoung]

...With Red you could have 2 shotguns on different actors both mixed to two tracks each with different levels.

Yes, would be good to at least be able to assign each of two inputs to different pairs of the four tracks.

[Harry Clark]

I think it's actually OK to place the screen and knobs on the back, but it would be nearly mandatory to have an additional rear "face" of the camera in a small housing that could be velcroed or caged anywhere else on the body and would replicate the functions of the rear face for the AC. Arri makes a small unit that replicates the info screen and buttons and plugs into the CCU port on any of their modern cameras (Arricam, 535, 435, 235, 416, SR3) It's really great on a small camera like the 416 or the 235 where the main screen is obscured by the operator's head (or in the case of the 235, on the dumb side)
It's funny, because I sort of assumed the Red team already had this in mind...
Cheers,
Harry

[Mark B.]

Inset knobs like on the HVX200? - certainly cheaper and simpler than the "push in/out to adjust" type of knob, although more fiddly and less positive, especially if you have big fingers, or gloves on.


I thought about that... people with fat fingers might have problems if the insets aren't large enough in diameter. And I'll definitely be shooting with gloves on, frequently, so the diameter needs to be that much larger. Maybe inset isn't such a good idea after all.

[Stuart English]

We did consider that point, which is why all the data that appears on that rear screen is also available in the EVF and also the HD-LCD. The latter is probably what an AC will be using as a visual guide for focus / fps / shutter etc

[Gopher77]

After looking at the pictures from NAB I was wondering if a future update could include a waveform monitor and vector scope in the rear screen display? It would be nice as the camera op to take my eye off the view finder and look at the rear screen and know exactly where my exposure stands.

Gopher

[SVega]

I'd like an "RCU" type of interface device similar to Arri's. I device that can run most of the camera functions, be used for speed ramping, but could be mounted quickly to the red rails on the smart side or dumb side if need be. More importantly could be attached by a long cable for total control of functions especially start/stop, if used in configurations like remote heads on camera cars or cranes.

[tj williams]

Is a USB remoted set of controls which could mount on the rails or even attach onto the top of the VF a possible product or what!!!