Could Dec 3rd = Black Silicon?

[Tom Lowe]

Jim says Dec 3rd will make Nov 13th look humble by comparison. How could that be? Many of us suspect some type of sensor breakthrough. But could it actually be the mythical Black Silicon (http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2008/10/12/sionyx-brings-black-silicon-into-the-light-material-could-upend-solar-imaging-industries/)? :ph34r: :w00t:

Could we see a Monstro capable of shooting ISO 200,000?!? :gun:

[Stefan Christou]

We wish

Edit: and HOPE!

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Reminds me of the monolith in Kubricks' 2001.

Yeah, I don't think that Jim is just hyping us up.

If he says that it's important, then something is really going on. :biggrin:

Let's wait and see...

Black Silicon coul really be something.


P.S. These forums are like a movie. :)

[David Mullen ASC]

That would be rather fast in terms of the development of the technology, but it's possible that the announcement will be in regards to sensitivity, who knows...

[Lexicon]

Black silicon is at least two years from becoming a functional reality. It takes significant capital and time to equip the foundries for new tech like that.

[Jason Ing]

I don't know what's worse, Jim teasing, or Tom and David talking about light sensitivity that would turn a slow, mediocre 5.6 lens into a low-light, night lens. That would be too cool.

David, for some fun musing, if Red created a sensor that was highly sensitive to light (I don't know what the number would be, but make up some reasonable numbers)...

...what would that mean to your cinematography? How would it impact it?

[Stefan Christou]

It would make blackout material really expensive

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

And what would the effect be on high-end lens manufacturers? :biggrin:

[Stefan Christou]

.95 Leica's for $500?

[Pawel Achtel]

It may all well be, but by fixing one thing, you create other problems. There are no known optical ND filters that would achieve good quality filtration at ND 10!

But, it would be a nice option for dedicated night vision sensor.

[Jason Ing]

So if it was that sensitive, there would be no way of dialing it back down?

[Bruce Allen]

Nope!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Steve Sherrick]

I for one am not as interested in the extreme end of light sensitivity unless it's for specific purposes. In general, what I seek is a sensor that allows me to increase the dynamic range when needed, with very little noise tradeoff. In other words give me more to work with utilizing the same lenses we have now, with the same tools used for controlling light. For example, if I'm doing a night shoot on a city street and I can't bring in a huge lighting package, I'd like the ability to change the ISO to 800 and still have a relatively clean image with highlights holding and shadows with clean detail. The more we can push the image without degrading it to the point of not being useable, the closer we get to the holy grail. I would be thrilled with a sensor rated at 500. That combined with Superspeeds and a decent lighting package would get me quite far I would think.

[C.H.Haskell]

I was thinking the same thing Tom...either way, any "breakthrough" for the digital realm coming from RED is exciting. Sensitivity would be key at this point in the game.

[Tom Lowe]

Sensitivity and DR, for sure.

It's funny, I was looking over the dynamic range numbers for Canon and Nikon DSLRs the other day. They have barely changed in 5 years! The low-end models have like 11 stops, and the high-end recent cameras have like 11.5 stops. That is one area where massive improvements can be made, for sure.

[Daniel Browning]

But could it actually be the mythical Black Silicon (http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2008/10/12/sionyx-brings-black-silicon-into-the-light-material-could-upend-solar-imaging-industries/)? :ph34r: :w00t:

Could we see a Monstro capable of shooting ISO 200,000?!? :gun:

I hate to rain on the parade, but *no* technology, not even Black Silicon, can improve sensitivity by even *one* stop. Current technology, e.g. cheap digicams, already detect 70% of the photons that hit the sensor. A 1/3 stop improvement would put them at 100%, and after that there is no further improvement possible because every single photon is being counted. You can't see light that isn't there. That last 1/3 stop will be very difficult, though, because it's caused by the color filter itself.

As all cameras have approached the same physical limits for QE, read noise has become the principal factor in low light photography. The D3 only increased sensitivity by 15% over the 1Ds Mark III and that's considered a significant jump. That is why RED's larger sensor sizes are so smart: since the limits of quantum efficiency are almost reached, increasing the sensor is the only way to increase total light gathering power, assuming aperture goes up with it. Just going to FF35 increases the number of photons by over a stop.

Luckily, there is lots of room for improvement in read noise and no theoretical boundaries like sensitivity. Of course, there are tons of practical limitations, which is why sensor designers have such a hard job. My point is that if Black Silicon will have any significant low light benefit, it will be due to the reduction of read noise, not an increase in sensitivity.

Dec 3rd could also be about full well capacity, some other dynamic range technology, frame rate related, or not related to sensors at all. I'm looking forward to it.

[Lexicon]

Here's some information about BS and sensitivity. (http://www.sionyx.com/mslns/Black_Silicon_Imaging_Technology.pdf) (kinda sounds like a marriage guide eh?)

[Daniel Browning]

Here's some information about BS and sensitivity. (http://www.sionyx.com/mslns/Black_Silicon_Imaging_Technology.pdf)


This phenomenon results in external quantum efficiencies of 10,000% and optical detectors with 100x improvement in photoresponse


Their talk of 10,000% QE and 100x improvement is only referring to multiple electrons per photon. Counting the same photon 10 times doesn't mean you have 10 photons: the true sensitivity is still the same. However, the extra information will likely be useful for improving read noise.

100% QE is not just a good idea, it's the law.

[Jannard]

Maybe I had better lower expectations here... significantly.

Jim

[Tico Llaurador]

Maybe I had better lower expectations here... significantly.

Jim

Jim, you did say December 3rd, but not of which year!

:sarcasm:

[Steve Sherrick]

Maybe I had better lower expectations here... significantly.

Jim

We live in a world where technology is taken for granted. Everyone expects that we'll keep discovering new technologies, and do so at a rapid pace. If I can picture a camera that can record "perfect" images with better than human vision, well then it's must be possible and it's just a matter of time before it's available and for sale for less than $5000.

I wasn't alive in the 40's, 50's or 60's. But from what I can tell from talking with people who were alive then, there was a sense of amazement at what was going on with technology. Advancements in television, walking on the moon, medical discoveries, etc. were all major impacts in people's lives and perhaps there was greater appreciation for these advancements.

Would anyone be really surprised if one of the computer companies announced processors that are 100 times faster than anything available today? Probably not. A lot of us would think it's cool, but overall most would expect this. There are only a handful of things I can think of that would really blow people's minds if they were accomplished.

1. Time travel
2. After life
3. Teleportation
4. Cure for cancer
5. Immortality

Just about everything else is almost expected to some degree. So, it comes as no surprise that it's tough to meet all of the expectations out there Jim. All you can do is keep pushing to make better cameras, lenses, etc. I think most appreciate the efforts you are making, and are able to keep things in the right perspective. In my opinion, despite some first generation flaws, the Red One is still a marvel of technology. I will be excited about the technology to come as well. I'm savoring these incredible developments.

Not sure I'm making any sense here. The main point is just because the expectations are high, don't let that stop you from trying to exceed them.

[Tom Lowe]

Maybe I had better lower expectations here... significantly.

Jim

Sorry, Jim. I had to reach into the sci-fi realms to think of anything that could outdo Nov 13. :)

Steve, you might find Ray Kurzweil's books and lectures interesting. Jim, you might, too, if you've not read them. He talks about how the pace of technological advancements is actually speeding up, and will continue to do so on an exponential curve, resulting in a technological "singularity" or "event horizon" in 20 or 30 years.

[Joseph Ward]

Steve, you might find Ray Kurzweil's books and lectures interesting. Jim, you might, too, if you've not read them. He talks about how the pace of technological advancements is actually speeding up, and will continue to do so on an exponential curve, resulting in a technological "singularity" or "event horizon" in 20 or 30 years.

I will have to read that. I have a different theory. We will some day reach a technological terminal velocity. After that technology will slow down with a few unexpected leaps here and there. I just base my theory on the speed of light and the smallest atoms as far as limits. Maybe we will kill each other using tech for evil, before we can really help others as a whole using tech for good. Right now we are somewhere between but I don't see that lasting forever, Who knows, anyway back to topic.

Yes, Jim has our expectations too high. :biggrin:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Maybe I had better lower expectations here... significantly.

Jim


It's your fault. :devil:

[Jannard]

It's your fault. :devil:

:-)

If I say there have been significant advancements, this group assumes that we have found the cure for cancer, AIDS and inexpensive solar power in our spare time.

Jim

[Tim Hole]

:-)

...have found the cure for cancer, AIDS and inexpensive solar power in our spare time.

Jim

Of course we expect no less...but then it would depend who you have been dining with of late, as some sources would say they have all been found and solved, long ago. The only thing I expect of you in your spare time is relax, be with the ones you love and of course...shoot!

[Casey Green]

:-)

If I say there have been significant advancements, this group assumes that we have found the cure for cancer, AIDS and inexpensive solar power in our spare time.

Jim

I thought you said the Nov 13th announcements were "insignificant". That could lead people to believe that the new announcements are somehow more monumental, no?

:-)

by the way, if you could work on cancer and aids... that would be cool. ;-)

[Juan Baranchuk]

JIM:

In my humble opinion the Scarlet with fixed lens has to be not modular.
It has to be in the 3000-4000 uss with battery and lcd to fight against EX-1 / HVX-200.

This camera is going to be used on tv, sports, news, and cinema of course. Yo are going to sell it like no other of the Epic, Scarlet or Red One models.

I think the public that needs an HD camera with zoom and high frame rates is really really big.

And that public needs 1080p and 720p too. (and 720i, and 720x480 ntsc and pal!) Give us please!

Please give us the price of scarlet with fixed lens! A lot of people on scarletusser is going to be very calm and happy.

If you make the Scarlet S35 with a 3K sensor aren´t we going to have better 2K images? 3K with a REDCODE 42MB/s isn´t better image quality than 5K 42MB/s, both of them finally downresized at 2K.

Jim, in my humble opinion you are going to be in the books of history of the XXI century.

Best regards,


Juan

[Lexicon]

:-)

If I say there have been significant advancements, this group assumes that we have found the cure for cancer, AIDS and inexpensive solar power in our spare time.

Jim

Well if anyone has their eye on the ball like you do, I suspect they could very well accomplish such things. Sadly, none of those three objectives has anyone who is wholly and truly dedicated to accomplishing them because many of the people involved in those areas of research are more concerned about getting money for themselves than making true changes in the world. A guy named Ghandi once said "Be the change you wish to see in the world." and you clearly applied that to your business. Anyway, I'm blabbering so I'll shut up now...

[Tim Hole]

JIM:

In my humble opinion the Scarlet with fixed lens has to be not modular.
It has to be in the 3000-4000 uss with battery and lcd to fight against EX-1 / HVX-200.

This camera is going to be used on tv, sports, news, and cinema of course. Yo are going to sell it like no other of the Epic, Scarlet or Red One models.

I think the public that needs an HD camera with zoom and high frame rates is really really big.

And that public needs 1080p and 720p too. (and 720i, and 720x480 ntsc and pal!) Give us please!

Please give us the price of scarlet with fixed lens! A lot of people on scarletusser is going to be very calm and happy.

If you make the Scarlet S35 with a 3K sensor aren´t we going to have better 2K images? 3K with a REDCODE 42MB/s isn´t better image quality than 5K 42MB/s, both of them finally downresized at 2K.

Jim, in my humble opinion you are going to be in the books of history of the XXI century.

Best regards,


Juan

Are you truly speaking for the people or for yourself ;-}

[Juan Baranchuk]

For myself. And for the people.
What do you think of my opinion?

[Lexicon]

I think everyone has something valid to say on the subject and you should voice your opinion. People might agree with it and they might not. You really can't worry about it. The fact that you can voice an opinion (in a polite and respectful manner) is one of the great things about the RED philosophy. Opinions and (constructive) criticism help shape the products. If you treat them well, they will treat you well.

[Tim Hole]

Price wise the 2/3" interchangeable and even the S35 are in the EX1/HVX price range really (ie. Sub £5,000). The fixed lens scarlet is already in a class of its own as nothing similar even exists (arguable obviously neither does the Scarlet but enough semantics). I think by not making the fixed lens scarlet modular is going to kick up the price and cripple you at the same time.

I understand where you are coming from but I prefer the fixed scarlet how it is...fully integrated with the other RED products...allowing for an investment to further upgrades as we progress.

We spent a long time discussing our dreams of what the Scarlet could possibly be...all my dreams were realised and was even given some dreams that I didn't know I wanted...thanks to RED. Dec 3rd will be interesting but then so will the next 8 months. I am maintaining an even zen-like approach to everything RED now otherwise I may fly out of the cuckoo's nest.

[Juan Baranchuk]

The Scarlet and Epic prices are for the brain only...
We don´t know the prices for the other pieces.

We don´t know yet that they are in the HVX range...


I hope so...

[Tim Hole]

True. The 2/3" Interchangeable i'm pretty confident that it would be £4-5K for a sweet set up. £3K for bare minimum to shoot. Obviously speculation but thats what I'm guestimating.

Blowing all competition out of the water.

[Craig Ryan]

We live in a world where technology is taken for granted. Everyone expects that we'll keep discovering new technologies, and do so at a rapid pace. If I can picture a camera that can record "perfect" images with better than human vision, well then it's must be possible and it's just a matter of time before it's available and for sale for less than $5000.

I wasn't alive in the 40's, 50's or 60's. But from what I can tell from talking with people who were alive then, there was a sense of amazement at what was going on with technology. Advancements in television, walking on the moon, medical discoveries, etc. were all major impacts in people's lives and perhaps there was greater appreciation for these advancements.

Would anyone be really surprised if one of the computer companies announced processors that are 100 times faster than anything available today? Probably not. A lot of us would think it's cool, but overall most would expect this. There are only a handful of things I can think of that would really blow people's minds if they were accomplished.

1. Time travel
2. After life
3. Teleportation
4. Cure for cancer
5. Immortality

Just about everything else is almost expected to some degree. So, it comes as no surprise that it's tough to meet all of the expectations out there Jim. All you can do is keep pushing to make better cameras, lenses, etc. I think most appreciate the efforts you are making, and are able to keep things in the right perspective. In my opinion, despite some first generation flaws, the Red One is still a marvel of technology. I will be excited about the technology to come as well. I'm savoring these incredible developments.

Not sure I'm making any sense here. The main point is just because the expectations are high, don't let that stop you from trying to exceed them.

Great post Steve! Really amazing to think about...

[oldphart]

:-)

If I say there have been significant advancements, this group assumes that we have found the cure for cancer, AIDS and inexpensive solar power in our spare time.

Jim

Inexpensive solar power is already possible. The new REC factory coming online next year will reduce the energy used in production by 80%, which will be good for future panel prices.

It was also on the news that somebody was cured of AIDS with genetic therapy. Admittedly a very special case, but that only leaves cancer. When are you guys going to fix that?

[Gunleik Groven]

So this would call for some kind of built in ND? :)

Edit - reading the rest of the thread...


Sure Jim. But that's only for this week.

[Hrvoje Simic]

:-)

If I say there have been significant advancements, this group assumes that we have found the cure for cancer, AIDS and inexpensive solar power in our spare time.

Jim

Heh heh. I'd take that as a compliment. :watsup:

[JD Holloway]

Ok , so we are dreaming here, but lets think about this.

Black silicon will appear, perhaps not as a cine tool, but as a medical/security/military tool, very soon in front and/or back side illuminated systems.

Basic re-tooling for existing architecture is minimal to nonexistent as far as I understand. It's really an easy bulk evaporative physical/chemical additional step. Basically making your silicon a (forgive me) Sham-Wow for photons lol. (I know the analogy doesn't hold but I had to say it).

There are a number of things to like here. The photonic gain is not backsided like most low-light/night vision devices. There is nothing to not like here. There seems to be a cascade/avalanche-effect but it's very shallow, thus less "noisy".

The thin architecture reduces red-IR crosstalk noise (particularly in blue/violet range) and operates at lower voltages, again less noise. You know that violet/blue you get in the blacks with too much IR/visible? That should be reduced, despite the chip being more sensitive to IR I would think. Probably need heavy IR filters though, thats a lot of electrons running around otherwise. It would be nice to see IR made to "bleed-off-the-back" of thin-chip Cine systems that are only interested in visible spectrum.

If you wanted a variable ISO chip, you would have to make electronically controlled voltage bleeding chips. This would be expensive and we would not see this for some time.

I could see Red producing a Scarlet specialty module for low light that uses a SiOnyx-ized chip. ISO would effectively be 320 iso x 2(exp6.6)=31,000 I would guess. And clean... Amazing for available-light night exterior f8 establishing shots, or shooting Jaguars at dusk, or high-speed low-light (lower budget) studio green-screen work, undercover night run and gun documentary work. The list goes on and on.

Might need a Variable ND to control sensitivity though till bleeding electrics come. A must buy for fixed lens Scarlet people.
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

Just talking shite.
J.

[Alan Fletcher]

:-)

If I say there have been significant advancements, this group assumes that we have found the cure for cancer, AIDS and inexpensive solar power in our spare time.

Jim

You didn't exclude perpetual motion .. so that's still in Dec 3 plan, right? :construction:

[Eddy Robinson]

Maybe I had better lower expectations here... significantly.

I love you, and people do expect too much, but speculation is what you get when you announce future announcements. You don't want to end up as the Duke Nukem of the camera world.