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View Full Version : 4K Projection - What's Out There?



Jason Murphy
05-05-2007, 01:53 PM
So after reading some of the threads here on 4K projection, I found myself with a few questions, and I was hoping that someone who knows more about what's going on in terms of 4K projectors could answer them:

1. Besides the recent lineup of Sony SXRD projectors, and (obviously) the as yet unknown RED 4K projectors, what else in the way of 4K projection is either out there right now, or is on the horizon? Obviously, there hasn't been a serious migration over to 4K yet, and we're at LEAST a year and then some away from a RED feature, I assume, so I'm assuming the market is pretty limited currently. Christie, as far as I know, is producing only 2K DLP projectors.

2. What display technology (as far as is publicly known) is being used in the current or next-generation of 4K projectors? Obviously, Sony's is SXRD/LCoS, and I assume that DLP will still be very much a viable technology for 4K projection. Any others that have been announced or discussed as possibilities?

3. Have any full features been projected in 4K as (obviously a very small) part of a commercial release? What were the reactions from those who saw it?

4. Is there a general refresh rate that these projectors operate at? The one 4K projection test I saw (on an SRX-R110) was refreshing at 96 Htz, though I was led to believe that this could be varied. Does anyone know more about this? Could this be used (or would it even be desirable) to introduce film-like "flicker"? (This is certainly subjective; I'd like to hear people's thoughts on it).

5. What 4K projectors are RED using for their own internal testing and projection? What were the projectors used to display the PJ short at NAB?

As mentioned above, I've only had one experience with viewing 4K projection, on a SRX-R110. It was under less than ideal conditions (screen was relatively small, there were a few glitches with the projector itself; it was projecting 4x2K images in quadrants, and they were misaligned, which certainly was distracting; the tech who was overseeing the screening couldn't fix the problem, of course). A bunch of different acquisition formats were projected at 2K and 4K, including 4K, 65mm, 35mm, 1080p, etc.

Anyway, my thought was that although the image was certainly very smooth and stable, and the color was quite nice, the blacks in the image weren't very deep or rich (which I have heard is a problem with Sony's current 4K SXRD lineup, don't know what other projectors are like), leading to a somewhat washed-out or less-heavy look (can't quite put it in words at this moment, but I hope people here will understand what I mean). All this led me to believe that 4K projection isn't QUITE there yet in terms of image quality. Of course, I can't (and shouldn't) really judge anything from this one screening, so I was wondering what people who interact with 4K projection on a much more regular basis have to say about their impressions of it (particularly vs. high quality film projection in terms of color/black levels - it's definitely sharper and more stable than 35mm projection).

Sanjin Jukic
05-05-2007, 01:56 PM
4K projector. One day when I win Lottery then getting two. One for home and one at work. Just a draem.

Rob Lohman
05-06-2007, 06:57 AM
What 4K projectors is RED using for its own internal testing and projection? What were the projectors used to display the PJ short at NAB?

Projector (not projectorS) that was used is the Sony 4K (don't know the specific model #), which we've always used (at IBC and for internal viewing etc.).

Chris Swartz
05-06-2007, 06:21 PM
Ok we know what you used for the projector, but what server did you use for playback? I was told a very Japanese name which I can't remember, but I got "KJ" out of the discussion. I wasn't aware that there really was a 4k box other than Quvis. Are you guys off the Quvis bandwagon?

Chris

Stephen Gentle
05-06-2007, 07:38 PM
Are you guys off the Quvis bandwagon?

http://www.red.com/gear-we-use.shtml

Rob Lohman
05-07-2007, 02:49 AM
At NAB we were using a KG box (see the link Stephen put up).

Craig Schober
05-08-2007, 12:11 PM
there are a few 4k projector brands out there but none except sony seem to get much press. i believe the sony 4k projectors have been used in japan in a theater chain for several months now but i have not seen them for myself and have not heard a qualitative comparison. i know theaters in chicago are being built now for 4k projection and might be up and running by end of summer. the only 4k projection i have seen was a red screening at the dv expo back 6 months ago. it wasn't a giant screen and viewing conditions weren't ideal but it looked great to me. the footage wasn't graded or corrected so there's no way of telling the 4k limits from that screening but blacks looked solid. ted had us walk right up to the screen to find pixels and no one was able to. so blowing up for big screen screens like imax seems promising.

GlennChan
05-08-2007, 12:23 PM
From a National Association of Theatre Owners report on DCI...
http://www.natoonline.org/DCI%20Final-Summary-7-27-051.pdf

While 4K is the goal, the technology today is only proven for 2K. Sony is demonstrating a 4K projector at trade shows, but the demonstration has yet to match the color space or contrast of the TI projector, making the Sony projector an under-performer visually. The Sony projector has yet to be tested in a busy, metropolitan cinema that operates many shows daily. Even if a 4K projector were available, it would need a 4K server. As of this writing, no vendor has a 4K server on the market, or even in demonstration. Sony, notably, uses 4 servers to drive one projector in its trade show demonstrations. 4K technology is likely to be many years away from achieving theatre-level performance and operation.

Rob Lohman
05-08-2007, 01:20 PM
They are wrong on the 4K server part (depending on how you look at it I guess). We were using a 4K server at NAB. The projector was running fun for 9 hours a day (every single second) for all days of NAB. I think we had to reboot the projector once in that time frame.

Most people seem to agree with that review on colo(u)rs and contrast etc. coming of that Sony 4K projector.

Good thing is that you can use a 2K for color grading just fine (as Peter's team dead for Crossing the Line [no, I don't know which one they used]).

Yash Keough
05-08-2007, 10:42 PM
I thought the footage was graded on a Pablo system? Hmmm...


the footage wasn't graded or corrected so there's no way of telling the 4k limits from that screening but blacks looked solid.

Stephen Gentle
05-08-2007, 11:44 PM
I thought the footage was graded on a Pablo system? Hmmm...

He's talking about different (older) footage shown at another trade show.

GlennChan
05-09-2007, 01:35 PM
Re: 4K servers existing
The report probably contains information that was accurate when it was written.

2- To digress somewhat...
Perhaps the highest quality imagery in the near future will be from a direct-view LCD? (Though quality is subjective.) From what I vaguely remember from seeing Ecinemasys' DPX 23" LCD, it has very good blacks. They claim better than CRT black levels; it looks significantly better than what projection can achieve (i.e. better than film, better than digital projection). In terms of contrast ratio, I think a direct-view LCD will be #1.

Jason Murphy
05-09-2007, 01:56 PM
From what I vaguely remember from seeing Ecinemasys' DPX 23" LCD, it has very good blacks. They claim better than CRT black levels; it looks significantly better than what projection can achieve (i.e. better than film, better than digital projection). In terms of contrast ratio, I think a direct-view LCD will be #1.

Maybe so, but it's still kind of hard to crowd a couple hundred people around a 23" monitor in a dark room. Also, I doubt you can get 4K on it, no matter how good eCinema Systems says it is. :)

Rob Lohman
05-10-2007, 04:38 AM
Re: 4K servers existing
The report probably contains information that was accurate when it was written.

Could be, didn't see it was written in the summer of '05. It definitely existed a year later (2006), since we used one in that year :)