Money can't buy everything

[redluvr]

This is a good place to test that theory.
How much money will it take for someone who already has a RED camera or will have one very soon to sell it immediatly after it arrives for more than he paid for it.

I would personally start at $5000 above the current price.

[Andrew Benz]

There is no way in hell I would sell my camera--ever. I have loads of work coming my way--broadcast, hi end promo, fortune 500 corp, commercial/tabletop, music videos, docs, and independant film (working on something big for me) and it would supersede almost any amount anyone could offer me for my camera.

Now, having said that--let's hope Jim doesn't show up at my door and tell me I suck and take it away leaving me in a pool of tears! lol---(props to the other thread were this was first mentioned, lmao as well pixelchef, sharkguy--cheers my friends!)

[Joe Aurili]

I have a red reservation in the 40s. I really do want to keep and use the camera right away, but I would buy it and sell it off for a price, and buy another red with my later reservation. I would use the profit to help fund my project. I have been thinking about what the profit would have to be to make it worth the trouble, but I know it would need to be much more then 5K. Getting the camera months or even a year earlier must be worth big money to someone...


This is a good place to test that theory.
How much money will it take for someone who already has a RED camera or will have one very soon to sell it immediatly after it arrives for more than he paid for it.

I would personally start at $5000 above the current price.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

After all the effort and agony to raise the money for my RED ONE on time, a profit of $5000 sounds almost like a joke.

Besides, as Andrew said too, i will make much more money by using it in my work.

[Joe Aurili]

I'm thinking with the initial demand an early reservation holder could make serveral times the initial investment in a few months just by renting out the camera, and still keep it.

[redluvr]

I have such a bad catch 22 situation as I have been working on a film project for 8 years now and within a few weeks I have a presentation to make for the financing which will only be approved if I have a film quality digital camera.
The reason for this is that the money I will get covers the whole project only if I don't use film. The money will only be given if I can complete the film with that budget. It is from a government source. I have been happy for a while knowing the red camera is on it's way, however I was away from the site for a few months now and the shock I got when I realized the waiting queue and the time frame. I thought originally that if I have the money I will simply buy one and wait a week or two. So now I am in deep S%$T...

I have read most of the posts and can see that it will be very hard or near impossible for someone to give up their red baby. So I have to make a plan to get one, come hell or high water. I cannot afford to lose this chance.

So I am going to have to make a very generous offer to some lucky guy. But it will be worth it in the end.

And this might not even work.

[Andrew Benz]

There are many people on this forum that would love to find a way to help you in your endevours, myself included. Though there are many variables, I am sure we could help pull you out of deep kim chee!, if the project rocks, schedules amended, etc. Looking forward to hearing more... though, I cannot sell #557-- I would be slitting my own throat... so to speak...

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

So I am going to have to make a very generous offer to some lucky guy. But it will be worth it in the end.

And this might not even work.

Well you have another option, make a deal with an early reservation holder in your area and rent one!

[redluvr]

I was working out a rough estimate of the cost of the camera with lens and the basic accessories for me if I ordered it now. It is roughly about
$28000 so I am looking to pay about $40000+ for a rig with the basic needed extras. By the way I am not really interested in the silicon image camera, no matter what it costs.
This is a "HIGHLANDER CAMERA"...


"there can be only one" excuse the pun.

[redluvr]

I only saw your post now.

That would never work as I am in South Africa and I doubt anyone here is in the queue, and if they were I think they would be far behind in the queue.

I was one of the first people here to have the sony hdr fx1.

The other problem is that some of the scenes are huge that involve car chases and helicopters and a full scale boeing 737 in the ocean that it would be a huge waste to shoot anything less than 2k. This is all being sponsored by the government and some private companies. I have some test footage of the practice for that scene that I will make available soon and other interesting stuff. I am actually also looking for a DOP an a co-director from overseas who can handle this kind of shoot. So far most of the S. Afriacn movies have been small in scale and political. My plan is to have the first hollywood style feature film in this country.

[redluvr]

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/td123_photo/boeigcrash1.jpg

[Andrew Benz]

The skillsets needed for this type of shoot is way above my paygrade, but I will say that you are going to need more than one REDONE for your more aggressive shot lists-- the action and expense would demand it-- right? BTW-- good luck w/ everything redluvr- I hope you get what you need.

[redluvr]

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/td123_photo/webnews1.jpg

The first pic is a previz shot

[redluvr]

I will have four film cameras (sponsored) for 2 days. The big scenes will be done on 2 consecutive days and nights.

[Rick Darge]

I'm thinking with the initial demand an early reservation holder could make serveral times the initial investment in a few months just by renting out the camera, and still keep it.


exactly

[Rick Darge]

I couldn't part ways with my RedOne... I would feel dirty afterwards..

My only regret though, was that I should have ordered two cameras.

[Joe Aurili]

I kick myself for not reserving 5 that first day ;)


I couldn't part ways with my RedOne... I would feel dirty afterwards..

My only regret though, was that I should have ordered two cameras.

[redluvr]

I can't believe I missed the queue. After what you guys are saying I realize that if somone did order 5 or more, he would be well off in a short while. This is one of those investment opportunities that slipped away. dammmm!
Thanks for the support.

[dalemccready]

I would imagine that ideally you'd have a spare sitting around in case something were to go wrong for any reason if your whole shoot is dependent on this one camera.

[redluvr]

We should remember this when another company comes out with a BLUETWO

[redluvr]

Hi Dale

The financing of the film depends on me getting a redone camera. I can't afford film and it would be a waste to film on anything less than at least full HD.

[redluvr]

"Maddigan’s Quest" on your site is the quality and look I am going for. cool lighting.

[chuck colburn]

I have such a bad catch 22 situation as I have been working on a film project for 8 years now and within a few weeks I have a presentation to make for the financing which will only be approved if I have a film quality digital camera.
The reason for this is that the money I will get covers the whole project only if I don't use film. The money will only be given if I can complete the film with that budget. It is from a government source. I have been happy for a while knowing the red camera is on it's way, however I was away from the site for a few months now and the shock I got when I realized the waiting queue and the time frame. I thought originally that if I have the money I will simply buy one and wait a week or two. So now I am in deep S%$T...

I have read most of the posts and can see that it will be very hard or near impossible for someone to give up their red baby. So I have to make a plan to get one, come hell or high water. I cannot afford to lose this chance.

So I am going to have to make a very generous offer to some lucky guy. But it will be worth it in the end.

And this might not even work.

WOW
Talk about a rock and a hard spot!
I didn't think any government sources had even heard of a RED camera.
Who are they?

[redluvr]

When I applied to them for funding they had a fixed amount to spare, I had to accomodate that budget. I knew about the redone and it's rough estimated price. I had to show them the site and the camera so they could see that the film can be made for the amount. If I had said film then the budget would skyrocket. I also currently have huge amounts of products being sponsored and cg, matte painting etc. being done for credit.

[Mark B.]

This is a good place to test that theory.
How much money will it take for someone who already has a RED camera or will have one very soon to sell it immediatly after it arrives for more than he paid for it.

I would personally start at $5000 above the current price.

I ordered two RedOne's, one of which I'm keeping and the other one I'm selling. #728 will go to a high bidder, whatever that amount ends up being. $5000 sounds like a reasonable amount, in a way, but there's no telling what's going to happen until the marketing machine hits the streets after those first few production units are released.

[redluvr]

I have already upped to about $11000 above the market price.

[chuck colburn]

When I applied to them for funding they had a fixed amount to spare, I had to accomodate that budget. I knew about the redone and it's rough estimated price. I had to show them the site and the camera so they could see that the film can be made for the amount. If I had said film then the budget would skyrocket. I also currently have huge amounts of products being sponsored and cg, matte painting etc. being done for credit.

Yeah....but who are they?

[redluvr]

they are a local provincial government office in South Africa

[Jason Francois]

This seemingly HUGE-looking film shoots funding is entirely dependent on a camera that isn't even on the market yet?

Sounds a bit strange to me.

[Joe Aurili]

If anyone wants to throw me a pile of cash to pry my camera in the 40s away from me after I buy it, then my email can be found on my site www.gamersden.com. I guess the best offer is the way go. I would not consider any "low" offers, as I could just keep it, or rent it out and make much more.

[redluvr]

That is my whole point. I said I had no idea that this would happen, I thought that the camera would be ready about this time next month which it should be. I did not know that there would be a queue of months and months.
I was surprised, hence my post.

[redluvr]

The funding is based on destination tourism as I am filming in their location and using all the cool scenery that will hopefully be shown on the silver screen. That is why I need a good quality camera in order to get distribution here which in itself is difficult as they are very strict on the quality of the finished product.

[chuck colburn]

This seemingly HUGE-looking film shoots funding is entirely dependent on a camera that isn't even on the market yet?

Sounds a bit strange to me.

uh huh!

[redluvr]

I will try to explain a bit better

me: can you help me make this movie? I am filming in your town and it is featured throughout the film showing off all your nice destinations, the boeing crash scene alone will generate a lot of publicity.
them:how much do you need?
me:7
them:we can only give you 2 if you can show us the marketing exposure etc. and can you do it with 2 as it is government money and not an investment?
me:well the original plan was to do it on film, but I know about a new camera that is being made and it will shave millions off the budget. It should be ready by the time we are ready for the presentation. It shouldn't be a problem.
----------------------
The rest you know.

[Michael Schrengohst]

If you have that much money...
just shoot it on film.

[Poi Boy]

If you can't buy I would think that you will be able to rent a couple of reds and or hire a couple from the early receivers.
Aloha
-A

[redluvr]

Those were just ratio numbers. In reality I would only have $200 000. The crew that is fully professional and expensive all have to be transported here from Cape Town. This is a very tight budget.

The bottom line is that I have a max budget of $50 000 for all the camera and sound needs.

[IAN SUN]

REDluver, I have two RED Ones coming in October, I am interested and willing to travel to SA. I have many friends from SA, and have wanted to do a project there for a while. PM me and we will work something out.

[Rick Darge]

You: I have $50,000 to spend, can I buy your new RedOne?
Me: But it took me forever to save up $28K, not only that but I've been waiting over a year for it and missed my wedding because it was scheduled the same day NAB was kicking off.
You: But I'll give you almost double what you paid for it! Double!
Me: No thanks.
You: $75K!

TheOtherGuy: I'll sell you mine for $40k!
TheOtherGuysBrother: I'll sell you mine for $35k!!
ThePope: No pick me, a bargain for $30k!
TheOtherNeighbor: $28k!!!! 28k!!!! that's 7 times the res the camera can shoot at!

BOOM!

SLAM CUT TO:

My face


~the end

[Jannard]

I have a red reservation in the 40s. I really do want to keep and use the camera right away, but I would buy it and sell it off for a price, and buy another red with my later reservation. I would use the profit to help fund my project. I have been thinking about what the profit would have to be to make it worth the trouble, but I know it would need to be much more then 5K. Getting the camera months or even a year earlier must be worth big money to someone...

Looks like we lost your reservation info... :-)

Jim

[Jarred Land]

heh heh heh heh....

[Joe Aurili]

Hi Jim :) I'm not saying I WANT to sell my camera. I'm saying if I buy the camera and someone throws enough cash at me that I could buy three cameras later, it might be hard to say no to that...


Looks like we lost your reservation info... :-)

Jim

[chuck colburn]

Hi Jim :) I'm not saying I WANT to sell my camera. I'm saying if I buy the camera and someone throws enough cash at me that I could buy three cameras later, it might be hard to say no to that...

jlaurili

I've got some extra shovels if you need to dig a deeper hole.lol

[Jason Francois]

I'll sell you mine for......hmmmm....one million dollars, cash-money. :)

[Joe Aurili]

Is there anything wrong with my logic? It's not like i'm made of money. It is hard enough for me to scrape enough together just to get the camera, let alone all the other expenses a project requires, which will all be funded by myself. I really do need the camera, but a bit of a delay won't kill me if it could help me so much. If the time is worth much more then the money for someone else, I don't see the harm. It is not much different then buying the camera and renting it out to others...

[Jason Francois]

Is there anything wrong with my logic? It's not like i'm made of money. It is hard enough for me to scrape enough together just to get the camera, let alone all the other expenses a project requires, which will all be funded by myself. I really do need the camera, but a bit of a delay won't kill me if it could help me so much. If the time is worth much more then the money for someone else, I don't see the harm. It is not much different then buying the camera and renting it out to others...

It will be your camera and you should sell it if you want to. Honestly, I'm in the same boat. I could wait until next Summer for my camera if needed, which is why I'm always posting for everybody else to be patient and telling Jim et all to take their time. :)

I wonder how many legitimate buyers there are going to be that are willing to pay way over MSRP to get their hands on one earlier? This is an important camera, but I would think that most established filmmakers have contingency plans for cameras to fill in, while RED comes to maturity.

That said, I've been know to be wrong from time to time. :)

[Mardi_Gras]

Is there anything wrong with my logic? It's not like i'm made of money. It is hard enough for me to scrape enough together just to get the camera, let alone all the other expenses a project requires, which will all be funded by myself. I really do need the camera, but a bit of a delay won't kill me if it could help me so much. If the time is worth much more then the money for someone else, I don't see the harm. It is not much different then buying the camera and renting it out to others...

Lighten up buddy! I think Jim was just pulling your legs. :watsup:

[dalemccready]

"Maddigan’s Quest" on your site is the quality and look I am going for. cool lighting.

Very kind of you to say. I can understand you not wanting to shoot on anything other than Red now too. I'm completely spoilt, but I have a string of projects that sadly will be shot on "legacy" formats ;)

Maddigan's was a battle. 2 camera Varicam, the first of it's scale in New Zealand. Sadly we never once had a moment to breath and enjoy each others company while shooting that as the schedule was very tight, we had 12 core cast and 4 vehicles with hidden drivers in nearly every scene.

Noisey in the shadows though, I believe that Panasonic made a mistake not releasing their Gamma convertor as software. You really need it to make the best of the camera, yet no one I know wants to buy it when they can already see a picture that looks okay. So we lift the shots in post without th convertor and hey look at all that noise. And don't get me started on keying

...tirade over Varicam over. A counter point would be that the last 3 music videos I directed were Varicam and wouldn't have been made without the savings that camera gave me.

[dalemccready]

Personally I think if people are willing to pay extra to get their hands on my camera, then there will certainly be a demand to rent it. Thats how I'm going to pay for mine. Then I can float around the world shooting pretty shots at my leisure!

(note to self...take this thread to the bank when I get them to fork out for my Red)

[Shawn Nelson]

I heard one person theorize that the early demand for Red One rentals will be exceedingly low, until it becomes a "proven" technology and workflow. That said, I really hope they were wrong and I will be doing a strong effort to rent my Red out. If it's true that I can't rent #27 out in 2007, I may have to pawn my little son out :-) (it's okay, I'd retrieve him before he turned 5)

[Don Woods]

Looks like we lost your reservation info... :-)

Jim

Jim That Made My night...

[Mark B.]

I think the best rental period will be when the camera is first released yet not available to the non-queued people. I don't think many people are concerned about the camera being "proven technology", since there's already the footage from the prototypes looking so nice.

[Mark B.]

I'm kind of curious now, as I've been thinking about it. If someone had a RedOne and, say, 3 months before the general public will be getting theirs. How much money would renting it out for those 3 months bring in?

Assuming a fully booked schedule, that'd be 12 weeks of renting. If the rental fee is $2000 per week (an extremely reasonable price for my region), then the result would be $24,000 of income. If you aren't trying hard to get the rental business, maybe you only bring in 6 weeks of renting... $12,000 dollars.

So, really, it's probably not cost effective to sell one of these cameras unless the offer is closer to something around $20k above list price. Hmm... now I'm not sure if I want to sell #728 after all. Especially if I could eek out 6 months of full rental... $48,000 profit!

[Tony Lorentzen]

Jim is a businessman - I'm sure he'd understand if you got a good offer and sold off your camera. On the other hand - I'm sure he would be pissed off if someone had reserved 5 cameras just to sell them off with a huge profit immediately after getting them.

[Stephen Williams]

Assuming a fully booked schedule, that'd be 12 weeks of renting. If the rental fee is $2000 per week (an extremely reasonable price for my region), then the result would be $24,000 of income. If you aren't trying hard to get the rental business, maybe you only bring in 6 weeks of renting... $12,000 dollars.

!

Hi,

If you know any producers who will pay more than cost price to rent a camera for 3 months please pass their names to me.

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

Hi,

If you know any producers who will pay more than cost price to rent a camera for 3 months please pass their names to me.

StephenI won't be surprised if such things start happening right off the bat. Hell, I just had a very successful studio exec who I intern for ask me if I'd heard of this "RED" thing last week. Who knows? I'm sure there are plenty of people who will be willing to give them a rental package for Panavision-esque prices. :laugh:

[shaftbond]

Hi,

If you know any producers who will pay more than cost price to rent a camera for 3 months please pass their names to me.

Stephen

ditto.

[Chris Gearhart]

I don't think he means renting to the same person/company for three months. He means booking his schedule full.

[Joe Aurili]

I hope so. My sleep was not so great last night just thinking about it.


Lighten up buddy! I think Jim was just pulling your legs. :watsup:

[Joe Aurili]

That is my thought. Why would anyone sell for a 5k or 10K profit, when the camera is worth so much more?

Renting sounds like a great way to pay for the camera, but I am unsure how to go about it, and certainly not something I would not attempt to do on my own.


So, really, it's probably not cost effective to sell one of these cameras unless the offer is closer to something around $20k above list price. Hmm... now I'm not sure if I want to sell #728 after all. Especially if I could eek out 6 months of full rental... $48,000 profit!

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Renting sounds like a great way to pay for the camera, but I am unsure how to go about it, and certainly not something I would not attempt to do on my own.

If you know any rentalhouses near you, approach them, chances are they do not have a reservation yet - and will be unable to get a camera untill sometime into 2008... in which case having them handle the rental of your camera can be a great deal for both of you - the beauty of this approach is they already have the clients, the downside is that you will need to share the money your camera makes.

[Joe Aurili]

Thanks, good idea. I am sure Phoenix must have some. Also I goes to LA every month or two, and I KNOW they have some ;)

Any Idea what the percentage split would be?

[donatello b]

come on ... everybody has a PRICE !!

i only work on the projects i want/like to work on - however for 10k (US $) a day i'll work on something i don't like ...

RED 103 is not for sale ... BUT then again .. i'll take a good look at $ (US) offer in the 6+ figure area (for body only) ....

[donatello b]

"Any Idea what the percentage split would be?"

a local rental house offered 50% ( RED body & EFV) ...

from my POV - 50% is too low at this time .. the rental house doesn't have a RED reserved ... they will make their $$ on all other accessories which will total higher then the body ...
if they don't have a RED =the lenses & accessories sit on their shelf ...renter goes to another rental house ...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I can't discuss specifics but I have been approached about renting #19 for a feature in August. Since they had originally budgeted for 35 I can ask for a premium rate and it still reads as big savings for them. The rental operation that is in the mix on this is not expecting anywhere near 50% and that's good since I would not consider that reasonable.

Having such a low number is leverage and I would love to pay off the camera in the first year. Like many of the folks on this forum I am open to renting with me included, no blind rentals. I figure that even if they have a DoP on board and/or Cam Op I can serve as a data wrangler / camera assistant / sorta DIT. I can even build my involvement into the rental price if they're concerned about the crew count.

Direct sale? It would have to be 6 figures but for that you could get an F23, oh that's right, they aren't available yet either - they even cancelled a training because the protos went back to Japan after NAB.

[Clint Johnson]

Since renting four Red One cameras for two days falls easily into the budget, it looks a lot like he is trying to get the state to buy him a camera?

[redluvr]

Hi Clint

That was not my original intention, but when I saw the price for the outright purchase of the camera I thought, why not? I still need a camera for the whole 5-6 week shoot. Why would I rent a camera when I can own it for such a low price. I have 3 other projects in development, so owning a camera will make the budget for them much lower.
Where I am in the world there is very little work for someone unless you have access to a high quality camera and there are very few independant producers here.

I also happen to live in the only province that does not have a film industry.
There are no rental facilities near me, the closest is Cape Town that is 800km away.
The same place I am hoping to get the funding from recently gave a production
company from Johannesburg (1200km away)the same amount that I want just because they were shooting here.
They already had a lot of money as it was a television commissioned project.

All I said in the begining is that I missed the queue(my fault) and I was hoping that someone who had ordered more than one or could wait might be kind enough to help. the how and why I need the camera is not even relevant.

[Joe Aurili]

The Red One retirement plan? ;)


Direct sale? It would have to be 6 figures

[Billy Summers]

Think about it, what is a week's worth of rental for a RED...?

[Clint Johnson]

Hi Clint

That was not my original intention, but when I saw the price for the outright purchase of the camera I thought, why not? I still need a camera for the whole 5-6 week shoot. Why would I rent a camera when I can own it for such a low price. I have 3 other projects in development, so owning a camera will make the budget for them much lower.

Yeah, five or six weeks makes it more economically reasonable to purchase over renting- especially when any rentals would probably be from out of country sources.

[Greg Voevodsky]

A week should be 3-4 days rental rate.

[Ivan G]

Don't hate the person who reserved 5 cameras for resell. That person was a believer and saw an opportunity. Although I know they would keep at least one :)

[Joe Aurili]

Did I say anything else about selling? I was looking into perhaps renting out my red to help pay for it. Jim, did I do anything wrong? If so I apologize. I'm very grateful that the camera is being produced and I do want and need what it can provide. I was just being honest about theoretical situations, maybe too much so... I put down an early reservation, because I had faith that the red team could pull it off, and because it is a dream come true camera, and nothing has changed.

[Edit: I don't see the post that I just replied to anymore ]

[Mark L. Pederson]

I heard one person theorize that the early demand for Red One rentals will be exceedingly low, until it becomes a "proven" technology and workflow.

"exceedingly low" .... THAT is funny!!!