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Mark Toia
11-28-2008, 11:56 PM
Hi RED.

Since your last big announcements of EPIC and Scarlet I like 90% of the RED USERS completely froze with shock. Thoughts of having a obsolete camera in my grasp after 8months was not my idea of client support. So much so that I instantly stopped a 3 camera RED order dead in it's tracks.

So a month has passed and I have shot 3 more (big) projects on my soon to be obsolete RED ONE and over that time I have realized that I was worried about nothing.
This camera is bloody amazing! The images (once you know how to unlock it's true dynamic range in Post) are amazingly sharp, clean, smooth and BIG!!!. So much so that I have to shrink the image 4 times to go to cinema or to HD, 16x to go to TV in SD.
All of my clients want me to shoot nothing else. FILM in there minds is dead to them. They now demand RED instead of me trying to convince them.

So in short, I'm over the shock of having a so called obsolete camera. which in fact is far from obsolete. I can honestly keep shooting this camera for another 4 years or more as it is without an upgrade, because the images are so so good.
You'd be happy to know Jim (RED) that I'm going to re-start up my order of the 3 extra cameras, knowing full well that you will buy them back off me one day for the full amount as I slowly sleek into EPIC land.
I'm so impressed with that offer and that's why I'm going to get more of them.

I do like the single solid body of the RED ONE too. Modular systems in our heavy production world have never really stacked up to well. Your RED ONE so far has been a solid lump of metal and myself and especially the GRIPS love it because of it's tough single unit structure.

In the short term, I will ask for the chip upgrade of all my RED ONES when the time comes, Hopefully you guys will change your mind and give us 14+ stop range chips instead for our old RED ONES.

So JIM and team. Thankyou. Thankyou for being a great company and a great support to us when things do go wrong. Your backup and warranty support has been simply amazing and that's one of main reasons I'll be a long and loyal customer for the rest of my career.

Best of luck for the future guys & Gals.

Brandon Fraley
11-29-2008, 12:24 AM
Mark, I feel exactly the same way. I was definitely disappointed when I heard about the announcements. I knew then that RED was being more than fair, but it didn't help that little sting I felt knowing that my new baby was going to be "obsolete" (or whatever you decide to call it) in about a year, rather than the closer to 5 I had hoped.

But it only took a couple days for me to get completely over it. RED has given me a camera that is literally more camera that I had thought I'd EVER be able to own myself. I absolutely love my camera and I am indebted to the folks at RED for helping get that caliber of tool into my hands.

And while all the new renders certainly have a new "cool" factor, truth be told, I personally prefer the look of the RED ONE. The idea of a potentially lighter rig appeals to me, but otherwise I like the idea of RED ONE's tank like body.

of course, we'll still have to wait until the 3rd to see what RED announces then lol :)

Denis Buhot
11-29-2008, 02:12 AM
..no way I ever feared my red to become obsolete 8 months from now. I'm very happy for all the red owners that can use it on stage, or wherever big crews, flat terrain, power supply are plenty. I never doubted it.

To me, what's hardly acceptable is the fact that a totally new line of products was announced before the Red one was a really full featured camera with very basic features enabled, and that its future as a real efp/eng tool is now dead. The fact that so many extra features are enabled, or that regular stage use provides entire satisfaction is no excuse for leaving people like me on the side of the road.

To me, what's hardly acceptable is the fact that this future is now to be seen in different products, and that I shall have to purchase them if I want a tool for my use. Decision to make that kind of move may be a matter of moneys, or not. To me, it's a matter of principle.

I'm happy to see that the future is being taken care of. Reading Jim's announcements for a future paradise all over here, when my present is not a paradise at all (not a hell, though) does irritate me at times. I guess that, as a plain customer and not a fan, however great is my respect, admiration and fun, I tend to think that Jim's excitment has nothing to do with my basic needs.

Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock
11-29-2008, 03:25 AM
I did not have anything to get over after the latest announcement. With all the great images coming out of my RED I would not know how to be disappointed.

After receiving my R1 in January this year has been a wild and interesting ride.

Jochen

Thomas Dobbie
11-29-2008, 06:37 AM
I certainly don't consider my Red One to be obsolete,I like the fact that it's solid,and feels dependable,and the images it produces are excellent with the potential to be even better with future build updates.
Remember that we are quite a bit away from the new camera's being a reality,by the time they are actually shipping, my R1 will have paid for it's self many times over,and still be worth what I paid for it with the upgrade offer.
I do welcome the announcement of the new system,for me it's come at a perfect time.
I'm fairly new to the cine world being primarily a still photographer,but my business is changing.
At present it's about 80% still and 20% cine,but that is rapidly changing, and by the end of next year I expect it to be 50/50 and rising in favour of cine.
I would have had to decide whether to upgrade my still equipment sometime next year,but knowing that the new Epic 645 is on the way I can get another year out of my existing equipment,and then simplify things by moving over completely to Red.
The modular system is going to be perfect for me,my huge investment in lenses,both still and cine,is preserved,as I can use all my existing lenses on the new camera.
I'm even musing about getting my 10x8 lenses remounted to use on the 6x17,or even being able to put the 6x17 onto my Sinar,the possibilities are endless.
I'm a very happy bunny,and looking forward to exiting times ahead.
Tom.

Jeff Kilgroe
11-29-2008, 06:56 AM
To me, what's hardly acceptable is the fact that a totally new line of products was announced before the Red one was a really full featured camera with very basic features enabled, and that its future as a real efp/eng tool is now dead. The fact that so many extra features are enabled, or that regular stage use provides entire satisfaction is no excuse for leaving people like me on the side of the road.

What are you talking about??? 95% of every job I shoot with RED would be classified as "EFP". And what do you mean by "very basic features enabled"? The RED One already does a lot more than many of us ever hoped for. It has several more features now than it was supposed to when I paid my deposit.

What needs do you have that are not being served? If it is post workflow issues, that is a different story. It's still a beta workflow and anyone who signed up / bought a camera, while thinking otherwise wasn't paying attention. But still it's not a bad workflow compared to many other high-end cine cameras. Plus it's evolving rather fast even though people don't seem to think so.

Meryem Ersoz
11-29-2008, 08:34 AM
Please don't let this thread devolve into another polarized moment between RED defenders and disappointed RED users. Those of you who are heading this way are missing the point of the thread.

I think Big T is expressing a sentiment which is shared among many people. I had a similar reaction --

"What? more money, just to stay on the path to the future with RED, I just dropped $60K only 6 months ago."

After Jim telling us that our wildest dreams would be fulfilled, I can honestly say that this was extremely deflating.

By the end of a day filled with hope and expectations and striptease-y camera renders, my response was "great, I can afford to pay for a couple of sensor upgrades...." which I already knew about.

Hardly my wildest dreams fulfilled...after all the hype, speculation, and fragmentary camera renders, it wasn't the feeling that I expected to end the day with...

I would probably be less deflated if I had my camera for 18 months, like even earlier adopters -- but I had it for only 6 months, even though I was in the first batch of earlier rez holders, I have the titanium "R" -

To be told that we would have to pay up another big chunk of change to keep up with future RED enhancements feels more like something that those Other Camera Companies would do -- add cooler features six months later, and charge a bunch of money to upgrade.

Isn't that why we signed on with RED, because of the hope that we could put an end to the ride on that hamster wheel? Isn't that the great promise of "making obsolescence obsolete"?

I agree that I don't want RED to stop innovating, and I want them to stay healthy financially, especially in these tough times, and I am in love with my cameras and already have resolved to find the money to make additional purchases. Like Big T, I'm over it. Full steam ahead with RED.

But it really required letting go of any expectations that I might have had, and that took a little time, just like Big T described.

But, after sitting with this disappointment for awhile, I came to a similar realization:

RED ONE has already fulfilled my wildest dreams -- even exceeded them in many intangible ways. I have gone places. I have met people. I have learned more. And I have shot things that I would never had had the opportunity to shoot without RED.

So thanks to Jim and RED for providing the vehicle for these opportunities.

And I'm looking forward to hearing how things have already changed on December 3rd....the fun has just begun.

David Birdy
11-29-2008, 08:40 AM
Mark,

I'm happy you were able to see past your fears.

The announcement showed me that Jim & company will continue to push the envelope to develop great products.

A company without broad appeal and acceptance at multiple price points would not be effective.

May every one have a very Merry & RED Christmas!

Dave

Spike Baumann
11-29-2008, 08:48 AM
I think after the new cameras come out there will still be at least a year or two of upgrades and fixes on them. For one, the way it seems to connect together looks like it could be an issue down the line when the pins get worn out or bent. If the camera falls forget it, I can see everything getting screwed up instead of a scratch on your paint or a broken mattbox.

Jeff Kilgroe
11-29-2008, 09:10 AM
RED ONE has already fulfilled my wildest dreams -- even exceeded them in many intangible ways. I have gone places. I have met people. I have learned more. And I have shot things that I would never had had the opportunity to shoot without RED.

Yep. That's how I look at it. The other thing that I think gets lost in all the hype and announcements is that the RED One is still a viable camera, it is still in its infancy. RED is not going to discontinue the One, they will be offering upgrades going forward, continuing to sell this camera. EPIC and Scarlet, especially the upper-end models, are still several months or even over a year or more away.

Where I have a hard time understanding all the gloom and doom is that I evaluate based on my own situation... I may be very active here on the forums, but from an industry point of view, I'm small potatoes. Most of the time I spend with RED is doing my own thing, not getting paid for it. I maybe only work the camera with a paid project once or twice a month. But even with that, in the 6 months I've had my camera, I have already ROI'd the body and media and more. I could do so much more if I really went after it with some better marketing, went out seeking work, etc.. I'm considering it, but that is not why I bought this camera... I bought it for me. In a way, it's a toy. A hobby that can practically sustain itself financially, I love it. And I can also take this hobby and incorporate it into other facets of what I do... It's one more service I can offer to clients that come from other business ventures I have. I do more and more professionally with the camera and related gear all the time. Perhaps I shouldn't fight it, I should just bite the bullet and open up the full service production company. But that's an entirely different discussion.

That said, I have a hunch that announcements on the 3rd have more to do with the RED One and related products than with the future DSMC/EPIC/SCARLET system.

Spike Baumann
11-29-2008, 11:02 PM
You should open a place cause I love that RojoMojo name :) It makes me smile every time I see it.

Jeff Kilgroe
11-30-2008, 10:39 AM
It makes me smile every time I see it.

Hehe.. What's funny is that the name was picked several years ago (back in '03) for an animation studio venture that never got off the ground. Seemed like a nice fit recently. But trying to acquire the .com version of the name from a squatter has been an ongoing process for the past year. I guess for now I'm just going to make due with the .net version of the name and will try to bring the site up around the first of the new year. At least that will help in a few months when the .com name goes to arbitration and the squatter still has the same domain reseller "site coming soon" page they have had for the past 10 years.

Harky Jewett
12-01-2008, 07:04 PM
This camera is bloody amazing! The images (once you know how to unlock it's true dynamic range in Post) are amazingly sharp, clean, smooth and BIG!!!. So much so that I have to shrink the image 4 times to go to cinema or to HD, 16x to go to TV in SD.

I'm still waiting for "Big T's Guide to Unlocking Red's True Dynamic Range and a Super Simple Red Workflow".

Seriously, I am not being sarcastic, I would pay money for that. I remember in another thread you said you would post your workflow. Have you, did I miss it?


As far as the obsolescence thing, I agree that there's marketing at work there, but, really, I don't think anyone was planning to redesign the camera when it was first designed. I think, as they say, they've learned a lot and are responding to what they've learned.

Sony and Panasonic wouldn't offer a software update, not to mention an audio upgrade and an entirely new chip. Not in a million years.

Shane Betts
12-01-2008, 08:15 PM
I remember all this from my time at Blackmagic. People would always complain because we released a newer, better model at a lower price that they had somehow been ripped off and that the gear they had was suddenly worthless. But what we always told them, and it's the truth, is that the gear they bought still does, and will continue to do, everything it was promised it would do, with new features and capabilities being added for free all the time. And if the new one is cheaper, that in no way changes the fact that it was a bargain at the time you bought it.

Jim, IMHO, has taken Grant's business model and taken it to another level - chiefly by being so open and sharing which allows him to hone his products before releasing them onto the market instead of after.

Brandon Fraley
12-02-2008, 06:59 PM
I'm still waiting for "Big T's Guide to Unlocking Red's True Dynamic Range and a Super Simple Red Workflow".


yeah, seriously!

Mark Toia
12-07-2008, 05:31 PM
yeah, seriously!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21851

Radoslav Karapetkov
12-07-2008, 05:47 PM
RoJoMoJo risin`. :biggrin:

Eddy Robinson
12-08-2008, 03:18 PM
To me, what's hardly acceptable is the fact that a totally new line of products was announced before the Red one was a really full featured camera with very basic features enabled, and that its future as a real efp/eng tool is now dead. The fact that so many extra features are enabled, or that regular stage use provides entire satisfaction is no excuse for leaving people like me on the side of the road.

If I may give an alternative perspective: assuming you have a RED One, you can make money shooting with it now. I am poor, and so still waiting for Scarlet because the investment in the One is too much for me. Not only can you make money by shooting on or renting out your 'hot' camera, but you can also put on your resume that you are experienced with RED since 200x, which will give you a advantage for several years to come.

OK, I understand you do not enjoy feeling like a beta tester of a product you paid money for. But this is the reality of modern product development, unless it involves safety-critical issues like a car where a limitation of an early production model might kill somebody. If you would work in the computer industry, it has been like this for a long time. That product development model is coming out to hardware too, because most electronics products today use a mix of hard- and software rather than just the electronics.

This same pattern has been going on for years with things like synthesizers and digital audio recorders. In the case of one very well-known digital music product which is the market leader in its area, the general advice is to buy the product then immediately replace the manufacturer's operating system with a much better one written by some hacker who happens to know both the DSP hardware and the music production.