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Jannard
12-01-2008, 05:40 PM
Just as a reference, this is a Zone Plate shot with the Canon 5D II. Pretty easy to see what's going on with row-skipping. Getting motion from a slow clock-speed sensor is... well.

Jim

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1228226829.jpg

Jason Ing
12-01-2008, 05:44 PM
Butt ugly.

Is there a Red One version?

Bruce Allen
12-01-2008, 06:03 PM
Haha, now you have to train your focus puller to miss a little bit in order to prevent this ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Daniel Browning
12-01-2008, 06:53 PM
Here's the above image with a gaussian blur and ImageMagick Lanczos resample to DVD size:
http://thebrownings.name/photo/misc/5d2-zone-480.jpg

Inexpensive, large, quality: pick any two.

Canon picked cheap and large, so quality went out the window.

RED is planning large and quality (FF35) or cheap and quality (2/3").

Graeme Nattress
12-01-2008, 07:06 PM
Ooo! That's ugly. You could have warned me Jim. I think I nearly threw up...

Graeme

Jason Ing
12-01-2008, 07:50 PM
Here's the above image with a gaussian blur and ImageMagick Lanczos resample to DVD size:
http://thebrownings.name/photo/misc/5d2-zone-480.jpg

Inexpensive, large, quality: pick any two.

Canon picked cheap and large, so quality went out the window.

RED is planning large and quality (FF35) or cheap and quality (2/3").

Still butt ugly.

Looks like my mom's third generation vhs copy of a TV show recording.

Tom Lowe
12-01-2008, 07:53 PM
So are they skipping, like, every other pixel?

Sensor resolution is stated at 5616 x 3744 (21.0 MP).

Mitch Gross
12-01-2008, 07:56 PM
Interesting, but I'm still not sure about the line skipping. There can be other causes for this, although it may partially attributable to line skipping. Either way an artifact is an artifact.

Martin Stevens
12-01-2008, 07:58 PM
Yes, the Canon is not the best.....but it is better than HDV. Yes????

pango
12-01-2008, 07:59 PM
Let us be explicit on what is obvious to Jim.

Surely you noticed that the Moiré Pattern is not symmetric (horizontal and vertical interference is not the same). This would suggest that

(a) every third line in the 16/9 part of the sensor is read
(b) the lines are read completely and resampled to 1920
(c) luminance and color are interpolated on line level from the rgbgrgbg... pattern

Yes?

(d) These lines compose the image to be compressed, maybe after applying some filters.

5D II users should definitely know this, since they must be scared of horizontal and nearly horizontal lines, less of vertical lines. Such an information should figure in the user manual, really.

Tom Lowe
12-01-2008, 08:08 PM
Can we see the same shot with R1, Jim?

Daniel Browning
12-01-2008, 08:13 PM
So are they skipping, like, every other pixel?


No, they're using a new DDG algorithm and RR sampling. The sensor read out electronics measure each pixel and assign it a "D" for skipped lines and a "G" for read lines. Then another sample is taken when one of the lines is chosen to be sent over to the other "side", which is known as RR sampling.

If you listen to the camera closely, you can hear this DDG algorithm working. The two "D" sound like a faint "Duck...duck..." and "G" goes "GOOSE!" RR sampling is a sing-songy "Red Rover, Red Rover, send a pixel right over!".

RED-Tank
12-01-2008, 08:50 PM
Jim, please put out the same shot of R1 & Scarlet tomorrow (3rd Dec) so then a lot of us would cheer up more :-D.

Jannard
12-01-2008, 09:45 PM
Jim, please put out the same shot of R1 & Scarlet tomorrow (3rd Dec) so then a lot of us would cheer up more :-D.

We have posted a Zone Plate somewhere (looks perfect)... we can post one tomorrow if you don't mind delaying the announcement a day or two...

Jim

Gary Stone
12-01-2008, 10:10 PM
uhhhh....HELL NO!!!

Martin Stevens
12-01-2008, 10:13 PM
Please no delay.

Martin Stevens
12-01-2008, 10:22 PM
Again thank you very, very much Jim and all of the Red team!

Your work is truly appreciated by me. It is a dream come true.

Joseph Ward
12-01-2008, 10:27 PM
Noooooohh! :waaa:

Pawel Achtel
12-01-2008, 11:06 PM
Wow! It is terrible! Thanks for doing the test, Jim. And, thanks for the R1:love:

Radoslav Karapetkov
12-01-2008, 11:19 PM
We have posted a Zone Plate somewhere (looks perfect)... we can post one tomorrow if you don't mind delaying the announcement a day or two...

Jim


Nooooah... :)

Jason Diamond
12-01-2008, 11:29 PM
anyone have a link to the thread for the RED zone plate jim mentioned? can tseem to find it.

RED-Tank
12-02-2008, 02:19 AM
We have posted a Zone Plate somewhere (looks perfect)... we can post one tomorrow if you don't mind delaying the announcement a day or two...

Jim

Ha ha ha.. no no no please don't Jim, that piece of picture is nothing 'significant' comparing to the announcement (we all sure about this).

But how about 3 days after the announcement, you post the Scarlet zone plate :ph34r: hee hee hee...

It's nothing urgent if that affect any of your existing timeline, we rather have Scarlet out as soon as possible, so please stop playing your 5DII :usd:

Guys, I am counting down the 3rd of Dec, I guess Jim is not going to sleep again tonight (as usual). So take good care of your health :-) (and everyone here).

Graeme Nattress
12-02-2008, 05:07 AM
Yes, the Canon is not the best.....but it is better than HDV. Yes????

Depends on the camera, but I've never seen such a bad chart from even a really cheap HDV camera. Remember this is not so much the compression we're seeing, but what happens when you try to get video from a large sensor and don't do it properly.

Graeme

Tico Llaurador
12-02-2008, 05:30 AM
The aliasing is strong and very apparent. To wit:

http://tinyurl.com/5qajlm

Vincent Thomas
12-02-2008, 05:43 AM
The 5d is first a camera for photographer, and a fine versatile one with many adventage including impressive iso possibilities. Video is the cherry on the cake which will be good enough for non professional use and all of this for a very decent price...
End of story no?

Is it really worth writting more on the subject?

Graeme Nattress
12-02-2008, 06:08 AM
Thanks for that Tico, yes, quite visible.

Vincent, think of this as education on how cameras work. I think that here at RED we try to "do things properly", and it's often hard when people suggest various things we could do for me especially to say "it wouldn't look too good". I don't have the time to make up demo code to show what doing things sub-optimally would look like. Fortunately, in this case, it's done for me.

Graeme

Eddie
12-02-2008, 07:50 AM
damn now you´ve got me all worried... should I get two batterypacks from RED or save the 500$ and settle for the 5D

Roberto B
12-02-2008, 08:06 AM
The 5d is first a camera for photographer, and a fine versatile one with many adventage including impressive iso possibilities. Video is the cherry on the cake which will be good enough for non professional use and all of this for a very decent price...
End of story no?
it should be if the red guys weren't in panic.. :calm:

Graeme Nattress
12-02-2008, 08:13 AM
Panic? Hell no. We knew about the 5D2 and it's "1080p" way before it was released. I'm just personally shocked at how nasty it is on the zone plate. Pretty much all camera manufacturers use zone charts to help them develop cameras, fine tuning OLPF and image processing etc.

I think everyone was "assuming" that the video mode downsampled from the full sensor. It's pretty plain from these charts that that is not happening. Similarly, the low-ish skew is an artifact of the fact that skew looks less if you read out less lines!

Graeme

Roberto B
12-02-2008, 08:17 AM
The aliasing is strong and very apparent. To wit:

http://tinyurl.com/5qajlmsome unpleasant artifacts?.. yes

aliasing?.. check it w/ a different player and maybe you'll have a good surprise.. or maybe not..

it depends of your choice.. is 5dmk2 a scam?..

Tom Lowe
12-02-2008, 08:19 AM
Real men can get good shots on any camera.....within reason. :)

Graeme Nattress
12-02-2008, 08:20 AM
Maybe not I'm afraid. Very visible in both Quicktime player and VLC.

Graeme

albert rudnicki
12-02-2008, 08:21 AM
Jim
Did you again forget to put a mark on "use high-quality video settings when available" in Quick time preferences :)

Albert

Graeme Nattress
12-02-2008, 08:25 AM
Bad news Albert, that the h.264 codec doesn't use that flag, (it's for DV mainly) and hence changing it doesn't make the decode look any nicer. VLC doesn't make it look any nicer. And why? Because it's a problem with how the data is read off the sensor....

Graeme

Roberto B
12-02-2008, 08:28 AM
Panic? Hell no. We knew about the 5D2 and it's "1080p" way before it was released. I'm just personally shocked at how nasty it is on the zone plate. Pretty much all camera manufacturers use zone charts to help them develop cameras, fine tuning OLPF and image processing etc.

I think everyone was "assuming" that the video mode downsampled from the full sensor. It's pretty plain from these charts that that is not happening. Similarly, the low-ish skew is an artifact of the fact that skew looks less if you read out less lines!

Graemedoes it have its flaws?.. sure it does.. bring it on for $2700.. old & new customers won't miss :greedy:

you are one of my heroes.. but so far.. among all you.. the accuracy has just been w/ this smart kid here:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=335759#post335759

Graeme Nattress
12-02-2008, 08:32 AM
You know I used 1D MK III for my photography? I have a bunch of Canon L glass in my cupboard. They make really great stills cameras. Jarred's post is fair and reasonable.

Graeme

Roberto B
12-02-2008, 08:42 AM
yes.. but he didn't bash the obvious.. this camera is a milestone.. before we had you for.. now we have this camera for pushing you to give us 35mm under $3000.. this would be truly revolutionary..

a red1 customer speaking not in panic :calm:

Graeme Nattress
12-02-2008, 08:44 AM
Sure, but I'm an image processing geek, and view things from that perspective.

Graeme

Noah Kadner
12-02-2008, 08:49 AM
I appreciate this info and all but it does feel a little odd to come from Jim. Is the Mark II really that much of a threat to RED? The big advantage it has right now is that it's a completed product you can order while Scarlet/DSMC are still in the development stages.

I've seen awesome looking footage on the Mark II shot by pros- awesome in the sense of good Canon optics, nice and shallow depth of field and decent low-light performance. Not so awesome is the 30p which looks too home-video to me, the low-ish bitrate and lack of a RAW option. All of which make me more interested in what RED has to offer. But I'm not going to obsess over charts like this as my deciding factor.

And in all honesty these cameras are affordable enough I hardly see the need to pick one over the other. I'm planning on getting my hands on both. There's no one camera to rule them all or whatever. Doesn't Jim himself have every camera ever made for this very reason- it's interesting to check them all out. All that said, I think anyone who's remotely well-informed can make the distinction for themselves without the need for this sort of nitpicking, but maybe it's just me.

-Noah

C.H.Haskell
12-02-2008, 09:01 AM
The fact this thread exist makes me more interested in testing this camera. :)

S. Um
12-02-2008, 09:10 AM
Thanks for that Tico, yes, quite visible.


Graeme and Tico,

That video looks pretty good to me, but maybe I don't know what to look for. Can you please point out where you see aliasing (or other problems)?

Tico Llaurador
12-02-2008, 09:46 AM
The hotel's signage... top of the boat's hulls... the bread tray carts at the bakery... lines around the trolley advertising... the fur-clad mannequin... purses behind the store display window... it's everywhere.

Chris Newman
12-02-2008, 10:20 AM
All you need to fix it is an aftermarket blur filter (aka Optical Low Pass Filter).

Graeme Nattress
12-02-2008, 10:46 AM
Put in an extra OLPF in front of the existing one to make video mode function correctly? It would have to be set very different vertically than horizontally, which is doable, but certainly not optimum. Maybe if you just de-focus the lens a bit?

Graeme

Sanjin Jukic
12-02-2008, 11:57 AM
Forget Canon 5DMKII,

it's a nice photo FF35 camera and HD video gadget that advertising Canon L glass

with a low quality HD motion pictures at 30p that could sometimes break "minds and hearts" of "hardcore" cine lens users.

But upgradeable mother board with upcoming new sensor and additional universal mount would be successful for R1 at longer run.

Don't forget that nobody can make camera like a R1 for about 3K USD.

You can only get something hybrid or crippled HD video like in a Canon 5DMkII.

Also whole world entered a recession just before Christmas.

It's about 12 hours before December 3rd, 2008.

FMG battery
12-02-2008, 01:15 PM
what have you been smoking tonight sj?

Sanjin Jukic
12-02-2008, 01:30 PM
I quit smoking long ago.

Not healthy.

I was ordinary Laphroaig 10 years old.

FMG battery
12-02-2008, 01:54 PM
I appreciate this info and all but it does feel a little odd to come from Jim. Is the Mark II really that much of a threat to RED? The big advantage it has right now is that it's a completed product you can order while Scarlet/DSMC are still in the development stages.
there will be thousands of sales next days.. for sure.. hope Jannard may understand he can take advantage w/ a similar offer powered by Graeme.

hey.. similar offer.. it includes form factor, sensor size & price.

Eddy Robinson
12-02-2008, 06:08 PM
The aliasing is strong and very apparent. To wit:

http://tinyurl.com/5qajlm

...it would be more than acceptable if going out to DVD. Blu-Ray no, unless you did some work on the post processing; Nikon D90 fans over at dvxuser.com worked out the pixel spacing on that camera which was causing ugly jaggies and developed an automated post fix which would work in any editing package.

By the way, I'd like to say I quite like this footage. I live in San Francisco and I've been to all these locations, and sometimes shot there too. I'm quite impressed by how good this all looks, considering that it was shot 'as-is'. When I say good, I'm thinking of the lighting and color etc., as opposed to the aliasing. I've been on night shoots all over the city with everything from a crappy 1-chip (me messing about and wondering what I could get) to 35mm with maxi-brutes (huge 5 kilowatt lights). And I must say, I'm pretty amazed at how nice this looks.

Here's a blog (http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2008/11/30/first-1080p-video-from-canons-new-5d-mkii-amazing/) post about the shooting. The 'secret weapon' used on some shots is an f/2.0 200mm lens which is pretty damn fast. These are not cheap (I found one for about $5500 on EBay, which is almost 3x the cost of the camera...) but then it's insanely long as well - I found several equally fast but shorter lenses for much less.

There's definitely some ugly going on, and I'm sure I'd see a lot more if I piped this over to my TV (42"). Plus I disliked the video feel, especially around 21/22 seconds (2 shots). On the other hand, the wide shots of the Castro theater (34 seconds) and Macy's (1:00, last shot) look gorgeous. Even at 30p, I got that little 'Ooh...movie!' shiver. And the shots of the reporter around 0:30 were similarly cool. I even liked the lens flare.

Because I know all these locations well, it ties in immediately to that feeling of 'this looks great, I wish I could shoot this right now' - when the reality is that it often takes much time and effort on lighting to get that 'as-is' look, due to the limitations of cameras. Let's be honest folks, if I showed you the nicest shots from this clip as a sequence of still photos and said 'this is my my photostory board, I want to shot this on s16 or 35', 5 minutes later we'd be discussing permits and 3 ton grip trucks. Hey, if you showed me the same photos, I'd be drawing up the same requirements.

So despite all the flaws and so on I'm still really quite amazed at what is going here. Being able to get such good-looking night footage with just a DSLR, a tasty lens and a tripod is frankly rather startling. Cinema/Hollywood quality, no way. But for low/no budget indie filmmaking, suddenly every location scout is a b-roll acquisition opportunity.

And the reality is that 90% of the general public wouldn't really be able to tell the difference if they were watching it on TV, or much care. Of course we care, but let's not allow our educated eyes to focus too much on the pixels at the expense of the picture, and I'm including Jim here. The zone plate picture does matter, but that's still some tasty-looking footage acquired with very, very low overhead which is nothing to sneeze at. Irony of ironies, if you took Canon's ~$10k XL-H1 out around town for the evening at 30p, it probably wouldn't look anywhere near as good...which might explain why they're not offering 24/25p frame rates on the 5dm2 :sarcasm:

When you don't have any real money for a film budget, it becomes important to ask where you hit the point of diminishing returns in terms of image acquisition - which is why super 16 has survived as it delivers 'good enough' results for many purposes at a vastly more affordable price point than the same project on 35mm (unless your shooting ratio is so low that the saving is less than the cost of the blow-up). On a decently budgeted picture you negotiate for the prices of property and talent, establish the upper limit for your VFX budget (if needed at all), and other line items you just accept union or going rates for most needs. At the low end the non-key staff and talent are making maybe $100/day, and at the bottom you're into FFF (food, friends, and favors). So if you can find a location that looks great at night - and carrying around a DSLR and a laptop is something you'd do anyway - then cameras like this offer the possibility of shooting something good with just your actors and 2 or 3 crew, instead of 10 or 15 plus a truck. 'Taking some pictures' in a restaurant scene (where your biggest thing is a DSLR + lens) is maybe doable for $100 instead of the $500 or $1000 needed if you want to bring in c-stands and HMIs and a crew. Comparing the costs on various small-budget shoots I've been on (where the project was destined for or ended up on video) I can see cost savings of anywhere from 50-80%. That's peanuts for some filmmakers, but for someone trying to put together their first feature (for example) it might be possible to reduce costs from a few thousands of dollars a day to several hundred, which is a massive difference (and can go into things like hiring better actors with some marquee value, music, paying the post team properly, and even doing some marketing).

I'm going to ask for the moon here and say that this is approximately what I would like to be able to do with the Scarlet Fixed and/or C-mount model - that is, get good quality images using available practical light. I appreciate the limitations of the sensor and also the t-stop (eg T 2.8 on the fixed lens model, where the slower speed is offset by the constant T benefit). 'Good quality' as in 7 out of 10 - it doesn't have to win awards, but with some advance planning you could shoot a straightforward night scene on a well-lit street, in a doorway or medium key restaurant lighting and have it be good enough to tell the story without the audience straining to see what's going on, and without the film production having enough of a footprint to require a grip truck or permits for every shot.

The Big Deal about the RED One was that you could suddenly work at or close to 35mm quality with a camera package priced more like 16mm, not to mention saving a vast amount of money in lab fees. Jim and the rest of the RED team are doing a lot to democratize filmmaking and put really high quality into the hands of people at prices that would previously have relegated them to shooting on digibeta or suchlike. Scarlet promises to do much the same for the market between DV and 16mm, and the rest of the product line offers an upgrade path that serves a big variety of budgets all the way up to high end.

The point of this post is to observe that whether planned or not, and acknowledging the significant quality trade offs, some of the other manufacturers are going to be competing with RED at the low end of the price spectrum too; and while their products are decidedly inferior on a technical level, they are adequate and deliver very clear bottom-line advantages to low-budget filmmakers.

Tom Lowe
12-02-2008, 06:29 PM
The thing that is so amazing to me about the 5DII is that I could basically put this camera and lens in an oversized coat pocket, pull it out and shoot 1080p Vista Vision format for hours and hours in ridiculously low light, with nothing but a couple of tiny CF cards and spare batteries in my other pocket.

Then you get home, pop the CF cards in the reader, and there are all your 1080p clips ready to go in .mov format, which seems very similar to Bluray specs.

Yes, there are image tradeoffs. But this technology is really something.

Luis de la Cerda
12-02-2008, 06:59 PM
I like the images (not charts, actual footage) I've seen so far. Ok, the sensor reading is being "cheated", the OLPF is adjusted for the high res stills, canon's engineers wear women's underwear, whatever. I'm excited anyhow. In my own humble opinion, the 5dmkII is the most perfect tag along, travel companion, take it anywhere, anytime, small camera available as of today. I don't know about tomorrow, but today I want one :)

Michael Ragen
12-02-2008, 07:54 PM
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/12/02/for-image-quality-buffs-dslr-video-is-off-the-table/#more-56512

Check out the Metroid example. Hilarious.

Anders Zakrisson
12-03-2008, 07:09 AM
So the fixed lens 2/3" Scarlet and 5D Mk II will get head to head when the Scarlet becomes available, one coming from the world of moving pictures and the other from stills. High resolution, high frame-rate video vs. large sensor, high-resolution stills.

What'll happen is that we'll have a choice and competition just makes these two companies work harder. I applaud Jim and Red as well as Canon.

Michael Hastings
12-03-2008, 08:10 AM
I like the images (not charts, actual footage) I've seen so far. Ok, the sensor reading is being "cheated", the OLPF is adjusted for the high res stills, canon's engineers wear women's underwear, whatever. I'm excited anyhow. In my own humble opinion, the 5dmkII is the most perfect tag along, travel companion, take it anywhere, anytime, small camera available as of today. I don't know about tomorrow, but today I want one :)

My feelings exactly, I will almost certainly upgrade my red to an epic x, and purchase some version of scarlet, but the 5d MKII is a sexy beast in its own right and probably a worthwhile investment until a comparable scarlet comes next fall/winter.

Joseph Ward
12-03-2008, 10:35 AM
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/12/02/for-image-quality-buffs-dslr-video-is-off-the-table/#more-56512

Check out the Metroid example. Hilarious.

That's funny since they don't even have Scarlet FF35 OR Epic FF35 to compare? Did they even try RedOne? :)