One fear...

[Brook Willard]

I know it's kind of asinine to make this thread today, but relax. RED's update today is downright awesome and I'm very very excited. I'll be buying a 645, fear not. Until now, the only thing I've bought from RED are two 3" stickers... so that's a big change. :) So - as always - every bad thing I say is backed up by ten good things. So save the "OMG you just don't get it" and "REVOLUTION!!!" posts for another thread.

A solid 75% of the jobs I do are perfectly happy with three-perforation Super 35mm at 24FPS. The rest require four-perf, higher frame rates or more specialized functionality.

As it stands, there is the RED ONE. At $18,000 for a camera body, a good body package will run about $50,000-60,000 [not including follow focus, mattebox, lenses or support... but including media and batteries]. Such a package rents for about $1,500-1,800/day from reputable rental houses in LA.

I suspect that beyond any Scarlet or Epic camera body, a good body package you'll want to take out on any job will be another $20-35,000. This would include things like a viewfinder, onboard monitors, all modules, onboard batteries, block batteries, riser plates, handheld system, tons of media and maybe - just maybe - an accessory or five that we haven't thought of yet. It adds up surprisingly quickly.

Not everybody will need "everything", but I'm being generous here. We're talking about an owner/operator creating a body package that could slot into a rental house's inventory.

So lets say $30,000 in accessories.

Since I'm saying that 75% of jobs are happy with three-perforation Super 35mm, that means that there are five cameras that fit the bill. I'm going to ignore the 617 as it's a more specialized camera.

Scarlet S35: $7,000
Scarlet FF35: $9,750
Epic S35: $28,000
Epic FF35: $33,000
Epic 645: $43,000

Obviously different cameras have different sensors, but that's a hard thing to explain to a production coordinator.

So now you have five camera packages that can accomplish the same thing... coming in at $37,000, $39,750, $58,000, $63,000 and $73,000.

If you're a rental house, no problem. The DP says what he'll need for the project and the house fits him with the appropriate camera body. Don't need the extra dynamic range? Go for the Scarlet! Think you might do high speed? Get the Epic S35. Need that dynamic range? Get the Epic FF35.

But I'm not a rental house.

"Hey Brook, I'm calling from ____________. We have a job coming up and we want to use one of the new RED cameras... I hear you have one!"
"Indeed I do. It's the high-end Epic camera, I rent my package for $2,000/day."
"Whoa! We got a quote from _____________ for the new RED at $1,200/day."
"Yeah, but I have the high-end Epic camera. It's the better camera that can do high speed, has more dynamic range and has a giant sensor for all kinds of cool stuff."
"No, but we're on a white cyc all day with kids. The DP says that we don't need all of that. Can you come down on your rate?"
"..."

Now obviously certain jobs have requirements and that's fine. It's not like a set of Master Primes sits in a closet dusty and lonely when Zeiss T2.1s go out on a job. I get that. But it's like owning a 600HP people-mover van and trying to get a higher rental on it. Production's just going to go with the normal people-mover.

Another thing to consider: the Mysterium X and Monstro sensors have different pixel densities. That means that shooting 24.89mm x 13.9mm on one camera will give you a different resolution than the same area on another. While we can't guess now, there's a chance that one resolution will decode faster.

We're all used to having post houses in our ear at the camera prep requesting quad HD instead of 4K 16:9... that's cool. But what if they start requesting one camera over another because of the resolution thing? I truly truly doubt that this will be a problem, but it's just a stupid little point to make while I'm at it.

I just fear that the additional $10,000-15,000 I'm going to put into the 645 is never going to come back on rentals. It'd be pretty lame to have to drop my camera's rental price to compete with a Scarlet that can do the same thing on a lot of jobs.

On my jobs, we'll always use my camera. Everything will always fall into place. People will know I have a 645 and will come to me when they need one. I may even park the thing at a rental house. It'll make money, I have no doubt about that.

But what do you guys think? Think the higher-end cameras will have to take two steps backwards just to compete with their lower-end cousins? Think that complete confusion by people looking to shoot with "the new RED" will bone us?

I'm curious to see if I'm way off base here.

[Simon Blackledge]

Possibly.. bur I think the people that choose.. DOP's etc.. will probably know their stuff ie which sony cam to use to shoot HD .. 25..35 ? etc..

s

[mikeburton]

Brook, I see your point and I understand as making a purchase like this is never an easy decision. I think what I would count on is your reputation at this point, the go to guy when it comes to RED. Not sure about you, but most newbie producers and DP's will ask my opinion first when discussing RED jobs. This is where you sell yourself and your gear to go along with it. I doubt in most situations that a DP is not going to want the added DR of the FF EPIC no matter what he/she is filming. They might however, need to negotiate and that is a compromise that you must gauge depending on your particular circumstances.

Trust me, its never easy plunking down the large amount of cash that it takes to invest in gear so its a bit of a leap of faith. If you think you can keep it busy and earning for you, go for it!

[Gunleik Groven]

I think you're right, Brook.

Maybe RED will include password-protected software locks, so that you can "downgrade" your epic to Scarlet 2/3" specs.

In that case you can get that lower rental, without giving away the higher specs :)

(---> joke)

[Brook Willard]

Oh fear not, Mike... this thread is less about me and more about the rental market at large. I do appreciate it though. :)

[mikeburton]

Oh fear not, Mike... this thread is less about me and more about the rental market at large. I do appreciate it though. :)

I know :-) Trust me, I deal with it in the Bay Area here all the time and watch the rental market just get eaten alive. But we all know that camera bodies aren't the best investment from a rental perspective anyhow. Lenses, FF, etc are good for years and years but bodies come and go with the waves of technology. Part of almost every independent who purchases a body usually has a passion project or two just waiting to get out. Now, whether they do them or not, time will tell :-)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

if I wouldnt have a RED and need to shoot.
i would use Scarlet s35 o FF35 for narrative stuff.

I use one time out of ten the slow mo stuff on the RED.


but the different redcodes can play a role.
i know rental companys giving away a red package for 250 $/day.

Or Postproductionshouses giving their reds for free when they get the job on the post side.


btw. i like the announcments.

[Jonas Rejman]

Let's say, you need that 1200$.

When you go on the job, and it comes to use the features of the EPIC, above those of SCARLET, you might want say, ok, that is what I charge 2000$ for, so if you want that high speed at this very moment, you will need to pay me more.

May not be the best business practice, but this will certainly educate people, because they will see the difference of features. They still have the option to say no. You just "happen" to have a camera in a camera on the set.

Does this make sense?

[johannperry]

Some well considered points.
What you are saying really is that the bulk of the investment on any camera package is the accessories not the camera. Except if you are investing in the 645 which comes out as the greater percentage of the package. I think that as an owner operator or a production house you are going to end up with 2 or more cameras. After all if you have the money to invest in a full Epic system, buying a scarlet too is not going to make a huge difference over the long term.
Every job you do will be paying off your accessories and each camera will pay for itself over time which ever one you use on a day to day basis.

[Martin Weiss]

Well, if you are planning on getting some extra income from rental, wouldn´t it make sense to just get a Scarlet Brain as well - all the other pieces fit anyway, so this is a relatively low added expense. Plus, you´ll be able to have a back-up brain, which is always good.

You certainly have more option than a few years back as an owner-operator of say a Arri 435, who gets a call from a producer who wants to shoot super16.

[Brent J. Craig]

I like the idea of a "dumbed down" mode where owners could selectively turn off features for those lowball productions, but they would also have to be unlockable on set. OR perhaps a mode to leave everything unlocked but log which features are used for billing.

Camera choice isn't always left to the DP. I have worked on jobs where the production company insisted we shoot F900 because the editor liked digitizing from HDCam. Picture quality or camera capabilities didn't matter to them.

[Ivan G]

There have been people under cutting with the R1. I've seen the R1 as low as $300.00 a day and that's fkn cheap!

It's going to be a blood bath with all the Scarlets.

Great post, really makes you double check yourself and the final decision.

[Matt Uhry]

But what do you guys think? Think the higher-end cameras will have to take two steps backwards just to compete with their lower-end cousins? Think that complete confusion by people looking to shoot with "the new RED" will bone us?

I'm curious to see if I'm way off base here.

Not off base, I've been having pretty much the same thoughts. Having MysteriumX and Monsrto versions of the Epic dilutes the Epic brand and creates confusion in general, not such a good thing for camera owner / renters.

Whether getting the 645 vs the FF35 you'll see a $10,000+ increase in rentals over the cameras 2-5 year lifespan? It's hard to say but having a few friends and clients that do special venue work and big movie VFX I'm gravitating towards the 645. Probably that big format will come in handy a few times.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Tobias Roediger]

Really? So based on your very loose assumption, people must ask to rent an F35 for the price of an F23.

RED is a company, not a camera. Lots of companies have different, similarly named, cameras in a single line. Its not that hard to figure out or explain.

[conrad gaunt]

The highest end cameras only make sense to me if you're intending to use them yourself, as well as renting.

My clients will seek the best dynamic range, and will appreciate higher fps more than anything else. Resolution above 4k isn't essential.

I personally prefer to work with downsampled footage, as it tightens up and anti-alias' the footage nicely (so I do appreciate increased resolution), and can decrease noise floors and expand the usable dynamic range a little. I don't generally feel 1:1 zooms into a CFA hold up as well as some people do, compared say to a Sony HDCAM with three chips. I have clients who feel the same. Of course, proper downsampling takes time. I do agree a single CFA is the best sensor design though/use of photosites.

Also, I think it would be wise to proceed above 28k with caution (Photoshop has a 30000pixel/2gig limit!). I didn't think I'd ever have to point that out whilest talking about moving images, its a testiment to Reds vision (just remember processors get outdated too..)

I think next year Red should focus some time on lowering Jim' blood pressure if necessary, possibly enforce a compulsary holiday, or maybe just drug him and place him in an air conditioned isolation chamber to recharge for a few days.. i don't know how dictatorships work exactly, but Epic X will deserve the biggest thankyou I can muster, and is a great relief

[Julio Quintana]

Brook's point is definitely valid. We can see this in practice with older cameras. The Sony F900 is a staple for indie filmmaking at this point, even though the F950 records 4:4:4 uncompressed and a "Superior Resolution". Very few people are willing/able to pay extra for this increased quality, especially since it requires a more demanding post process. You think people are going to pay a premium for resolutions over 4K? I wouldn't.

So following this logic, I think the real challenge Epic owners are going to face is, "Why should I pay $2000/day when I can rent a RED ONE for $300/day?"

[Tobias Roediger]

So following this logic, I think the real challenge Epic owners are going to face is, "Why should I pay $2000/day when I can rent a RED ONE for $300/day?"Where in the world are you guys getting these made up numbers from?

Maybe people just something to whine about… I was leery of the updated announcements before they happened—but only because they came so quickly on the heals of a major announcement.

If you are buying to rent the camera, use your freaking head and make some calls to potential customers first. Would you rather rent X or Y?

If you are buying it to film with then figure out what your NEEDS are. Renting it out is just a nice bonus.

[Ivan G]

Where in the world are you guys getting these made up numbers from?

Hi Tobias and welcome to Reduser. If you look at the top you'll find a search button. Use it and see for yourself what people have been bitching about. I would find you a link but I'll save you the pleasure. No one is making up numbers anyone who has been here long enough (unlike yourself) will tell you what are some of the craziest rates heard.

[Tobias Roediger]

Hi Tobias and welcome to Reduser. If you look at the top you'll find a search button. Use it and see for yourself what people have been bitching about. I would find you a link but I'll save you the pleasure. No one is making up numbers anyone who has been here long enough (unlike yourself) will tell you what are some of the craziest rates heard.

Thanks Ivan—not that new to RedUser. Been lurking here since the forum opened, recently created an account since a camera is feasible for me.

My point is the Epic is half a year from Est. completion so there is no basis for rental numbers at this point.

[conrad gaunt]

Here's some real numbers..

My usual day rate is £150+expenses, for my R1 in the North of England.
London is £250+expenses (though travel from Yorkshire is already included in that, as is VAT).
Everything I have is there,which includes two lenses, 2 raids, 1 cf, basic production pack

Tripods, Matteboxes and focus gears and EVF etc need to be rented seperately though a third party.

Hope that helps.

[Julio Quintana]

Where in the world are you guys getting these made up numbers from?

Maybe people just something to whine about… I was leery of the updated announcements before they happened—but only because they came so quickly on the heals of a major announcement.



Sorry I wasn't clear. My point is that people who are scrambling to buy the camera with the highest specs might be surprised to find out the the RED ONE is good enough for the rest of the world, and will be for a long time.

I actually shot some stuff last night just to test the Color workflow, and it's unbelievable. I love this camera and wouldn't pay double for higher resolutions or framerates.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

My point is the Epic is half a year from Est. completion so there is no basis for rental numbers at this point.

There is president, which tells a lot. Camera bodies typically rent for 3-5% of the new value per day, which puts a naked R1 at $525-$875, which is about what you typically find. More durable gear like sticks and glass is more like 2%-4%/day.

Scarcity or saturation moves the price around of course, which is what we are seeing with $300/day bodies, but the fact is that its really hard to make a serious return on investment if that is your price. The mindset is 'ill lower the price and undercut the market, thus getting more rentals for less money and ill be fine'. However when a market is saturated to the point where people undercut the base 3-5% numbers, lots and lots of people are doing it, so they are competing with too many cameras over too few jobs, and end out renting the camera for less money—but not really more often. After a year of this is pretty hard to justify the cost-to-return, and the camera gets sold.

I think we'll see a more reasonable number of Ones and Epics compared to the number of jobs that want to use them then we have this year. Scarlets will open up newer markets, like event shooters and TV, etc. But I think we'll see a lot of people jump ship with regards to continuing down the R1 product line without a real business plan.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Sorry I wasn't clear. My point is that people who are scrambling to buy the camera with the highest specs might be surprised to find out the the RED ONE is good enough for the rest of the world, and will be for a long time.

Honestly the biggest reason I'm moving to the DSMC system is for the erginomics (if it keeps the current design). I've heard nothing but complaints from DPs and Ops about what a pain in the back handheld is with the R1. These guys are in this for there careers, and they avoid lower back pain. Any job where the camera lives on the crew's shoulder is going to insist the new system, and well they should.

[Tobias Roediger]

Sorry I wasn't clear. My point is that people who are scrambling to buy the camera with the highest specs might be surprised to find out the the RED ONE is good enough for the rest of the world, and will be for a long time.

I actually shot some stuff last night just to test the Color workflow, and it's unbelievable. I love this camera and wouldn't pay double for higher resolutions or framerates.

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. I totally agree with you that the RED One will be more than enough for quite a while. If I owned one it would be a rough choice whether to upgrade or not. My point was just a $2k a day Epic rental rate is, at this point, conjecture since the camera isn't out yet.

[Brook Willard]

Matt Uhry brought up another point that I skipped in my original post: the RED ONE is still around and will be in multiple configurations.

So, to recap:

Scarlet S35
Scarlet FF35
RED ONE Mysterium
RED ONE Mysterium X
RED ONE Monstro
Epic S35
Epic FF35
Epic 645

All of them competing for the same jobs.

[Florian Stadler]

Interesting thinking Brook. From a owner/dp standpoint it's a little easier as well as from a rental house standpoint. Tech/owner is an odd combination that has worked for some with the Red one simply because it was released too early into the wild and gained a reputation with producers of needing heavy tech. As a dp I specify the equipment. The difference between red one and epic x in rental is not going to be huge, let's say a 50th (regular rental rate calculation) of the investment, 200$ more. No producer is going to beat me up over that when he is getting the latest and greatest with all the flaws from the Red one eliminated.
A rental house is going to figure out a formula of brains for their fleet (for arguments sake lets say 1 645 2 ff35, 8 epic x, 8 scarlet 35, 2 scarlet ff35, 14 full sets of accessories). The rental house is going to make money.
I have a strong feeling that as a owner dp I would want a scarlet as a backup body/b-cam with minimal extra accessories.
When it comes time for the 645 in 1.5 years I will want one from a photographers standpoint. I LOVE medium format. I will love the creative abilities it will give me in motion too. For me it will be a personal toy first like a car but I'm sure it will pay itself off if I'm having fun with it...
One issue I haven't wrapped my head around is the sensor sizes and the lenses needed to cover. What lenses cover a 30mm wide sensor and are useable for drama style cine production? Will my currently owned glass become obsolete?

[Noah Kadner]

I think it goes without saying if you are buying the higher end cameras you better be a well-established DP already or partnered up with an existing rental house ready to consign for you. That or be independently wealthy. It also comes down to whether you plan to shoot your own projects for yourself and maybe the occasional paid gig- in which case the Scarlets look perfect. Or whether you intend to shoot major motion pictures, commercials and music videos for high-end clients. Then the EPICs are what you go with.

But yeah we're talking *serious* dough to put together one of the really high-end packages. Pretty much up there with your F23/35 and decked out ARRI 35mm packages.

-Noah

[Darren Orange]

If you are going to get a EPIC 645 and all the fun stuff to go along with it you should almost without question get a Scarlet FF35, the cost of investment is worth it if you are concerned with beating other prices. I see Scarlet FF35 getting used a lot. But also keep in mind your dealing with RC42 vs RC225 that will tell everything.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i guess the scarlet S35/ff35 will be the working horse...
beside slo mo it can do almost 90% of what is needed.
so why pay more?

for epic x
for epic ff35 etc.

talked to some producers/clients....6k scarlet ff 35 is enough
the desire to pay more for redcode2xx and slo mo is not there yet.

my clients do mostly narrative things....so slo mo not needed so much.

guess the redcode 2xx can be an argument though, if we know what it will do.

but epic is just too sexy not to have

[Brook Willard]

Let me justify my rental rates a bit.

As I said in the original post, I'm not just talking about a camera body... I'm talking about a pretty well-developed camera body package.


As it stands, there is the RED ONE. At $18,000 for a camera body, a good body package will run about $50,000-60,000 [not including follow focus, mattebox, lenses or support... but including media and batteries]. Such a package rents for about $1,500-1,800/day from reputable rental houses in LA.

Here's a quote I've assembled from Keslow Camera's website:

RED ONE Camera Package $1,200
1 - RED ONE
1 - RED EVF
1 - RED LCD Screen
4 - RED Bricks
1 - RED ONE PL Mount
2 - RED Chargers
1 - Battery Plate
6 - 8 GB CF Cards
1 - Top Side Cheeseplate /w 15mm rod holder
1 - Top Handle /w Extension
2 - 12" Rods
2 - 18" Rods
1 - Arri 15mm Base Plate
1 - Video Breakout Box

RED LCD 7" $120
RED DRIVE $100ea, 3 per camera
Remote Switch $20
Anton Bauer Block Battery $80ea, 3 per camera


Total $1880

Now obviously all of these figures would be wrapped up into a quote. Robert and his guys are downright fantastic over at Keslow Camera and they're reasonable with their rates. There is also the fact that I would likely be renting these items for multiple days, giving me a different rate. The list goes on.

But that's the sort of package I'm talking about for the Epic... give or take. That's where I got the $2,000/d number from. You can also imagine how quickly $30,000 can get spent on accessories.

[Tobias Roediger]

Yeah, seeing the Scarlet S35/FF35 as the camera for most of our projects—renting an Epic brain as needed for additional flexibility.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Let me justify my rental rates a bit.

As I said in the original post, I'm not just talking about a camera body... I'm talking about a pretty well-developed camera body package.



Here's a quote I've assembled from Keslow Camera's website:

RED ONE Camera Package $1,200
1 - RED ONE
1 - RED EVF
1 - RED LCD Screen
4 - RED Bricks
1 - RED ONE PL Mount
2 - RED Chargers
1 - Battery Plate
6 - 8 GB CF Cards
1 - Top Side Cheeseplate /w 15mm rod holder
1 - Top Handle /w Extension
2 - 12" Rods
2 - 18" Rods
1 - Arri 15mm Base Plate
1 - Video Breakout Box

RED LCD 7" $120
RED DRIVE $100ea, 3 per camera
Remote Switch $20
Anton Bauer Block Battery $80ea, 3 per camera


Total $1880

Now obviously all of these figures would be wrapped up into a quote. Robert and his guys are downright fantastic over at Keslow Camera and they're reasonable with their rates. There is also the fact that I would likely be renting these items for multiple days, giving me a different rate. The list goes on.

But that's the sort of package I'm talking about for the Epic... give or take. That's where I got the $2,000/d number from. You can also imagine how quickly $30,000 can get spent on accessories.

what i see is that this rates were possible 8 months ago.
but now they dropped a lot....i can rent the same package today for 450-500 $ per day...if its a week the price will drop dramaticilly...i know a rentalcompany giving away this package for 200 $/per day.

i dont understand why people destroy the market....but thats reality here in germany.

edit: it makes no sense for me to buy equipment for 40 k and then rent it out for 200-400 usd /per day


back to topic:

guess the epic can be of interest when it would have something that scarlet doesnt have...
guesses:
640 ASA-1000 ASA
tungsten ? (will not happen)
smooth workflow......when using redcode 2xx :)
lets say bug free, edl loading epiccine...hehe

but again, beside the rental stuff i just like to shoot slo mo.

[Florian Stadler]

200$/day for that package you hear those things thrown around reduser.
I have never seen such a rate nor has a producer come up to me and challenged my rental rate with something like that.
You will not find those rates in Los Angeles, where demand for Red Ones seems to be going up, not down.
Some desperate owners might offer a deal but no one with a brain is going to give away that package for less then 800/day.
Know that Los Angeles rental houses discount heavily from list as a matter of course as Brook hinted.

[Brook Willard]

There will always be people who rent their cameras for embarrassing rates. There will always be "indie" rental houses and "professional" rental houses. There will always be that guy who could never make $100/day on his HVX... and that guy who can still make $400/day on his DVX package.

There is a market for $200 [damn...] RED rentals... but the producers and crew members that are used to living in Keslow/TCH/Clairmont/Otto/Camtec/Panavision land will never give them a call. There's a level of service and support that you will just never get out of "that guy" that is a given from the "professionals". The quotes are there to generalize it enough to keep from ticking anybody off... but the point remains.

I've found that the market tends to separate itself. They can drop their prices and mess with the market all they want... but in the end, if they're trying to play on the biggest productions, all they're doing is lowering their professionalism and worth. If they're playing in their own market... awesome. Lock that market down. But the second they try to drop into a high-end production, something is going to go wrong.

But in the market that does bear multi-thousand dollar rentals on camera packages... I'm just afraid that the low-end cousin camera that can now play in the same market will eat the bottom out.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

200$/day for that package you hear those things thrown around reduser.
I have never seen such a rate nor has a producer come up to me and challenged my rental rate with something like that.
You will not find those rates in Los Angeles, where demand for Red Ones seems to be going up, not down.
Some desperate owners might offer a deal but no one with a brain is going to give away that package for less then 800/day.
Know that Los Angeles rental houses discount heavily from list as a matter of course as Brook hinted.

yeah its never listed....but when i get out of reds i hire it for 200-450 per day

[Brook Willard]

Know that Los Angeles rental houses discount heavily from list as a matter of course as Brook hinted.

Exactly. Ask for $2,000 and you'll get $1,600. Cut the bullshit and ask for $1,600 straight away though... and you'll get $1,200.

Unfortunately we seem to be getting drawn away from the original point of this thread... different RED cameras cannibalizing their own market.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

There is a market for $200 [damn...] RED rentals... but the producers and crew members that are used to living in Keslow/TCH/Clairmont/Otto/Camtec/Panavision land will never give them a call. There's a level of service and support that you will just never get out of "that guy" that is a given from the "professionals". The quotes are there to generalize it enough to keep from ticking anybody off... but the point remains.


But in the market that does bear multi-thousand dollar rentals on camera packages... I'm just afraid that the low-end cousin camera that can now play in the same market will eat the bottom out.

totally right....i offer complete packages...from gear to post to supervising to finishing.

then producers know that they are paying the skills/service and not just the gear

[M Hsu]

Also, a lot of that low end rental market will dry up as indie guys will buy their own scarlets, nikon d95s, canon 5d mkIIIs and whatever else is coming onto the market.

I think unless you're a rental house, buying a red camera with an intended primary revenue stream of renting is signing up for a long hard haul. just my 2 cents.

[Ryan Patch]

Well, here another way to look at it:

Your 645 will be $73k

Most of that money will be in accessories. SO, what if you just invested another $7k in a Scarlett S35 body. When people want to get a package for $1200, you swap out the Scarlet body.

Also available is "Sure, you can have my package for $1200"... drive over to a rental house, subrent a scarlett body for $200, then you've got their package for them, you've lost a little money off the $1200, but it's better than nothing. That's the beauty of this whole interchangeable "brain" thing.


As long as you're not conflicting with a 645 job. Also, I'd imagine that your services go for quite a bit of $$? Monetize those!

[Steve Freebairn]

Exactly. Ask for $2,000 and you'll get $1,600. Cut the bullshit and ask for $1,600 straight away though... and you'll get $1,200.

Unfortunately we seem to be getting drawn away from the original point of this thread... different RED cameras cannibalizing their own market.

I've also had some concern about this. A lot of the people I work with though just want the best, and aren't going to settle for what a cheaper scarlet system will offer. They'll want more features even if it only costs them a little more. What would be nice is a feature chart that shows the options listed in the rows and the cameras in the columns with an X if that particular camera has a particular feature. If the information is presented very clearly, I think it will help producers and others make choices. The other thing we don't know is if the readout from the sensor in Scarlet will be the same as the readout from an Epic. Do any of the processors in the Epics reduce skew because of their speed? If so, that will help "Sell" an Epic rental over Scarlet.

There are a lot of good questions brought up in this thread.

[Darren Orange]

It really is all about the service. If you are not taking in enough capital then the first thing to go is service when supplying just equipment. Will "that guy" be ready for a phone call at 3AM saying "Hey I need help", I doubt it.

[Bing Bailey]

if your getting $400 a day and your package cost you 40k at the usual 3 day week rate thats 1200 a week. that covers your camera package in 40 weeks. in every other business I can think of making your investment back in less than a year is pretty good if you can manage to rent it out 40 weeks in a year. course thats no profit for the first year and all gravy for the second

[Cüneyt Kaya]

It really is all about the service. If you are not taking in enough capital then the first thing to go is service when supplying just equipment. Will "that guy" be ready for a phone call at 3AM saying "Hey I need help", I doubt it.

why not...if three of them build a that guy gang...they can do a lot.

back to epic over scarlet rental:

there will always be special shootings where special prices will be paid...
producers have to understand why epic x should be used over scarlet ff 35

[Cüneyt Kaya]

if your getting $400 a day and your package cost you 40k at the usual 3 day week rate thats 1200 a week. that covers your camera package in 40 weeks. in every other business I can think of making your investment back in less than a year is pretty good if you can manage to rent it out 40 weeks in a year. course thats no profit for the first year and all gravy for the second

and this business model works for them.
the next thing will be getting scarlets and renting them out for 200-400 usd.
red ones who paid off in the meantime still can make money.

[Bing Bailey]

this has been happening in the music business for the last decade. the price of equipment gets lower every year. the budgets for albums get lower every year and with that most of the recording studios went out of business and a lot of people seem to be doing it from home studios. course that doesnt buy you experience or quality but it happened anyway. the same will happen with post production for film/video and equipment rentals

[Brook Willard]

It's not so much the lowering of the cost of equipment and the increase in owner/operators that concerns me. It's that a $7,000 camera and a $43,000 camera do the exact same thing for a lot of productions.

[Hrvoje Simic]

It's not so much the lowering of the cost of equipment and the increase in owner/operators that concerns me. It's that a $7,000 camera and a $43,000 camera do the exact same thing for a lot of productions.

If by that you mean the visible difference for non high end clients on HD deliverables...this investment is not something I would rush into if I was depending on rental.

[Bing Bailey]

brook some of the features of epic might be a saving grace. if I had a choice I'd want to be able to over and under crank at full chip resolution not windowed and I'd want the ability to do ramping although I suspect a firmware update will make this possible in scarlet. then again I used the F900 on a feature 3 years ago and just put up with the fact it couldn't under or over crank because it was the best quality available at what I could afford at the time. RED has certainly turned the market upside down

[Cüneyt Kaya]

It's not so much the lowering of the cost of equipment and the increase in owner/operators that concerns me. It's that a $7,000 camera and a $43,000 camera do the exact same thing for a lot of productions.

you really nailed it down.

but what if epic can:
different monitoring options for lcd evf hdsdi out.
native redcode 2xx can be easily edited and onlined? no pain in postworkflow
the postworklfow wasnt talked one time here.
this can seperate scarlet and epic.

but i dont like the idea to cripple a lower end thing in features.

[Leo Ticheli]

I brought up the same concern in a post under the "Dec. 3rd Responses Here" thread. I'm repeating the main points here because the "Dec. 3rd" thread is so cluttered with redundant praise and general foolishness that the thread is practically worthless. No, it's completely worthless; far too much noise and far too little signal.

As it stands now, I plan to upgrade to Epic X and then buy a FF35 Scarlet body; I'll use the Scarlet as my "A" camera for sync shooting and the Epic X for my off-speed work. All this for under 20K; wow.

I know the cost of the body is just one part of the total package price, but I do see the FF35 Scarlet doing violence to Red package rates.

A 2/3" chip Scarlet is perfect for a huge market segment; 35MM Scarlets compete with their much more costly Epics. Perhaps it's quite different in the motion picture camera market, but other products have had their brand value diminished when they introduced economy models.

Still having two camera bodies, the Epic X and Scarlet FF35 for less than 20K is very attractive, so that's my chosen path for now. If the market demands the FF35 Epic, we can always add that to the party, but I do worry about selling clients on the added value of Epic over Scarlet, especially in the rate wars that are sure to come.

Hang on, guys, it's going to be quite a ride!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I brought up the same concern in a post under the "Dec. 3rd Responses Here" thread. I'm repeating the main points here because the "Dec. 3rd" thread is so cluttered with redundant praise and general foolishness that the thread is practically worthless. No, it's completely worthless; far too much noise and far too little signal.

As it stands now, I plan to upgrade to Epic X and then buy a FF35 Scarlet body; I'll use the Scarlet as my "A" camera for sync shooting and the Epic X for my off-speed work. All this for under 20K; wow.

I know the cost of the body is just one part of the total package price, but I do see the FF35 Scarlet doing violence to Red package rates.

A 2/3" chip Scarlet is perfect for a huge market segment; 35MM Scarlets compete with their much more costly Epics. Perhaps it's quite different in the motion picture camera market, but other products have had their brand value diminished when they introduced economy models.

Still having two camera bodies, the Epic X and Scarlet FF35 for less than 20K is very attractive, so that's my chosen path for now. If the market demands the FF35 Epic, we can always add that to the party, but I do worry about selling clients on the added value of Epic over Scarlet, especially in the rate wars that are sure to come.

Hang on, guys, it's going to be quite a ride!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

as of now that plan was in my mind too....but then again is it even possible to do these two things when your turn arrived?


and with epic ff 35 you would have the same in one body

[mikeburton]

I think timing is a major factor here that hasn't been addressed. If you can get your camera in the first batch and be the new kid on the block with the newest, best toy there will be a lot of demand for your gear and you will be thought of as an authority in clients minds even when the market gets saturated. Ask Gibby, Silverado Studios or Offhollywood if their ROI was worth the innitial investment. Timing is everything! Most people will pay a small premium for service, and ease. Dealing with someone new is always a risk and new camera systems will always be considered risky as is.
There are no gaurantees in this world just informed and thoughtful guesses:-)

[Joseph Ward]

I think Red maybe risking more than rental houses? I think Red will do fine because the ''Pros'' who can afford the best, will get the best.

What I fear is that people who wish to corner the market, whether rental houses/DPs etc., are never going to be happy and would wish Red would stop giving great cameras for lower prices, even if they couldn't do anything before Red came along! Red helped some, make money, by giving them something that they could never afford. Those people who were so unhappy with the camera price fixing/held back technology/monopoly/etc., are now becoming the same as the people they hated. Irony is life. I hope that isn't happening?

People must not be afraid and just adapt and be confident in themselves and their work first. If someone can be successful from starting a business out of a garage then....

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think Red maybe risking more than renal houses? I think Red will do fine because the ''Pros'' who can afford the best, will get the best.

What I fear is that people who wish to corner the market, whether rental houses/DPs etc., are never going to be happy and would wish Red would stop giving great cameras for lower prices, even if they couldn't do anything before Red came along! Red helped some, make money, by giving them something that they could never afford. Those people who were so unhappy with the camera price fixing/held back technology/monopoly/etc., are now becoming the same as the people they hated. Irony is life. I hope that isn't happening?

People must not be afraid and just adapt and be confident in themselves and their work first. If someone can be successful from starting a business out of a garage then....

yes i dont like the idea of crippeling things too.
as of now i just see that scarlet s35 and scarlet ff35 can do 90% of the jobs.


scarlet is really really good and i like it.
epic is really good too.
its a hard decision

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think timing is a major factor here that hasn't been addressed. If you can get your camera in the first batch and be the new kid on the block with the newest, best toy there will be a lot of demand for your gear and you will be thought of as an authority in clients minds even when the market gets saturated. Ask Gibby, Silverado Studios or Offhollywood if their ROI was worth the innitial investment. Timing is everything! Most people will pay a small premium for service, and ease. Dealing with someone new is always a risk and new camera systems will always be considered risky as is.
There are no gaurantees in this world just informed and thoughtful guesses:-)

i should buy a used red under serial no. 100 delivered in the 1st two batches...anybody selling?

[Tobias Roediger]

All this talk about software passcodes and unlocking features is quite silly. I'd rather have the cam sooner than later, later being after 30 more rounds of "wouldn't it be cool if it had build in wings and and AM/FM radio..?"

These configs rock—any system will have strengths and weaknesses. My job is to figure out how to use both to my advantage.

[David Wyatt]

As most Red owners know (or have discovered the hard way) it's pretty essential to own or have access to a back-up body (especially true during the early days of the camera's development). Owning two Epics might be financially prohibitive but owning one Epic and a back-up Scarlet could be more realistic and also mean you're covered for the situation Brook is worried about (i.e. missing out on potential Scarlet jobs because your camera is overly specced and priced). Just my $0.02...

[Julio Quintana]

As most Red owners know (or have discovered the hard way) it's pretty essential to own or have access to a back-up body (especially true during the early days of the camera's development). Owning two Epics might be financially prohibitive but owning one Epic and a back-up Scarlet could be more realistic and also mean you're covered for the situation Brook is worried about (i.e. missing out on potential Scarlet jobs because your camera is overly specced and priced). Just my $0.02...

If you upgrade to the Epic, you'll have your RED ONE as a backup body...

[Leo Ticheli]

If you upgrade to the Epic, you'll have your RED ONE as a backup body...

I don't think so.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Chris Parker]

if you upgrade to epic, you'd have to return your RED to RED. if you want to keep your RED, you'd have to go with the 12% discount on scarlet i believe....

[Cüneyt Kaya]

if you upgrade to epic, you'd have to return your RED to RED. if you want to keep your RED, you'd have to go with the 12% discount on scarlet i believe....

why shouldnt you be allowed just to pay the full epic price and keep your red?

[Leo Ticheli]

Of course you can do that, keep your Red One and pay full price for Epic, but not, as I understand it, for Epic X; Epic X is a special model for original Red One owners available only as a trade in.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Tobias Roediger]

Read the Dec. 3 Post by Jim (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=338186&postcount=4). Very specifically states which scenarios are for Trade-in and which are not.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The DP says what he'll need for the project and the house fits him with the appropriate camera body. Don't need the extra dynamic range? Go for the Scarlet! Think you might do high speed? Get the Epic S35. Need that dynamic range? Get the Epic FF35.


I hate to bring this up because it only adds on to the defeatist outlook, but the Scarlet FF35 is a Monstro sensor. It has the same exact sensor as the Epic FF35's minus the higher frame rates and REDcode 225 will be replaced by REDcode 100. So DR will be identical with both. It basically makes the Epic FF35 out to be a high speed cam.

[Gunleik Groven]

Of course you can do that, keep your Red One and pay full price for Epic, but not, as I understand it, for Epic X; Epic X is a special model for original Red One owners available only as a trade in.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

You don't need to trade in, but you need an R1 to get the deal. (28k$ or 28k - 17.5k$)

[Tom Lowe]

I think Red maybe risking more than rental houses? I think Red will do fine because the ''Pros'' who can afford the best, will get the best.

What I fear is that people who wish to corner the market, whether rental houses/DPs etc., are never going to be happy and would wish Red would stop giving great cameras for lower prices, even if they couldn't do anything before Red came along! Red helped some, make money, by giving them something that they could never afford. Those people who were so unhappy with the camera price fixing/held back technology/monopoly/etc., are now becoming the same as the people they hated. Irony is life. I hope that isn't happening?

People must not be afraid and just adapt and be confident in themselves and their work first. If someone can be successful from starting a business out of a garage then....

Best post I have seen a while. You nailed it, Ward.

I am really sick and tired of hearing people tell Jim to build these cameras so as to increase the profits of their little rental/DPing business. He is building these cameras to kick ass and take names, not to custom fit your little business model.

If you have legit feature and tech requests/concerns that is one thing. But people trying to influence the nature of these cameras based on their own monetary interest is dragging this forum down.

This used to be a place to discuss tech and cameras. Now it seems to be overrun with people looking for handouts from Jim. http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

[Alexander Nikishin]

Just to further clarify, I am more than guilty of the above, from a business standpoint, the DSMC line of Scarlet's are bad for rental houses/individual businesses, but from a larger pov, it is absolutely AMAZING to see what RED is giving the people considering the cost.

Jim is undoubtedly a selfless man.

This really reminds me of when BMW was considering releasing a 1 series line which was set to compete with the Honda Accord price range. :greedy:

[Harry Clark]

Brook,
I think you've answered your own question. Going overboard on the high-end and counting on producers to understand the difference is a dangerous game.
There is likely a "sweet spot" in the middle, perhaps the combo that Leo has hit upon. I'll likely do much the same (for sure I will get the "special" upgrade to the Epic) But if there is an opportunity in your market to work the high end, then it may make sense...
Bing is very astute in his observations about the music business and audio recording technology. Can a $8,000 home studio sound as good as Abbey Road or Gold Star? No. But at some point in the market, that fact will never matter.
I still rent out my old SDX-900. I'm astounded that people still want that camera. I'm also astounded how often editors get to choose our cameras for us!
Rambling now...
This is good thread. Lots of good observations.
Cheers,
Harry

[I Bloom]

Brook,

It sounds like you need an EpicS35 or FF35 and you want an Epic645. You are trying to reconcile the difference between a smart investment and an awesome toy.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying a 645 isn't a smart investment, in fact I think it will be. I think you can ROI an Epic645 no problem. You especially.

You can also probably sell it for around what you paid for it in some cases more. The same goes for a S35 Epic. But if you are basing your purchasing decision on the idea that the more expensive camera needs to be so much better than it's counterpart as to carve an absolute niche for itself in the market, equal too it's addition price. You are failing to understand how the film equipment market actually works. It's actually the inverse of what you are arguing.

A camera can have 10% more performance value than it's competitor and find a market for 200% more of the price. There are many examples of this today, my expectation is that they will continue. It's really about finding that market, not about justifying it.

It's kind of weird that you think the complete lineup of Red cameras are somehow undercutting each other, forgetting that there are all kinds of other cameras out there also "undercutting" the Red line even though they aren't as good as Red. More than a few idiots have already suggested selling my Red One and shooting on a 5DMKII... I'm working on a commercial right now that is incorporating D90 footage. On a similar note though, I'm currently testing and probably about to buy a non-red digital cinema camera specifically because I think found a market for it and so far I really like it. (A hush falls across the room...what do you mean... NON-RED.... I said good day sir...) It's because over the past year I've learned plenty about what people actually want to rent and why DP's make certain choices. I might buy a film camera as well.

Don't get the wrong idea, I'll be buying a S35 Epic as soon as I can and bigger ones someday too. (Long live Redcode. All hail the king.) Knowing a little about how you make your living I'll suggest mildly that you would be smart to buy a used Red one as soon as possible and then an S35 Epic as soon as you can get your hands on one and then get your 645. Me too. I'll be naming mine "Conspicuous Consumption".

Just a little friendly advice from someone with just a few years on you... just a few :shiftyph34r:

Ian

[Alexander Nikishin]

Well one good way to look at the Epic X is that you will have one prior to the S-storm of people who will later own one.

You will have an Epic I/O, CF and Battery module ready for when you do get the 645.

Another option is just owning a RED One & upgrading to a Mysterium X (Which should give you the exact same quality as the S35 Epic) minus the modular body.

Lots of options.

[mikeburton]

Another option is just owning a RED One & upgrading to a Mysterium X (Which should give you the exact same quality as the S35 Epic) minus the modular body.

Lots of options.

I'm hoping that this will be the case but is yet to be announced if all the features of the S35 EPIC will be the same in the REDONE with the X sensor. Hope your correct on this, but then again, I'm still quite uncertain what I'm going to do at this point. I might just keep my REDONE as is (wait and utilize my trade in at a later time) and purchase two Scarlets and outfit a small 3D rig. Anyhow, thinking out loud again, back to Brook's dilemma.

[albert rudnicki]

:help:

[Stephen Pruitt]

Ah, Alexander. . . but will a RED One with a Mysterium-X upgrade actually shoot identical images as an Epic-X? Will the REDCodes be the same? Will a slower REDCode in the RED One make a visible difference.

I don't know enough about compression algorithms to know if it will make a difference or not, but I assume that the RED One won't be getting anything nearly as quick as REDCode 250.

Stephen

[Alexander Nikishin]

True Stephen, that is yet to be seen.

At the end of the day, I really want a 645 system.

That will run me 43k for the brain and another (guessing here) 5k for the recording module, I/O module, PL mount and support system (base plate/rods, etc.)

That's a total of 48k, with taxes let's call it 50k with the CA business tax exempt.

With my RED One trade in of 17.5k, the total would then be 32.5k. Add in the Mysterium X upgrade to the RED One to hold me over until the 645 is released and were talking a total spending of $37k.

The other option......

Trade in the RED One for the Epic X, with discounts the cost will be 10.5k. Add on 43k for the 645 brain when it's released and a possible 1k for the support system. That totals 54.5k. I think that I can reasonably sell my Epic X brain when the 645 comes out for around 24k leaving me with a total upgrade cost of 30.5k.

So, with that being said the best route will be (assuming that all the free modules RED throws in there for current RED owners totals to around 5k worth of gear) would be to go with the Epic X, then onto a 645, in my case ofcourse.

Sorry for thinking aloud to those who don't care, but I'm assuming that there may be others who are in the same boat as me.

[Matt Uhry]

I think that I can reasonably sell my Epic X brain when the 645 comes out for around 24k

That's the big financial question question I'm pondering too. I think 24k might be optimistic, there will be quite a few monstro based options at that point for buyers.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Emmanuel Cambier]

The Epic X is a lot more of a theat to the R1 than any Scarlet, mainly due to slow-mo.
One question is, how would a R1 ugraded with Mysterium-X fare, when compared to an Epic-X???

Emmanuel

[Curran Giddens]

Sorry for thinking aloud to those who don't care, but I'm assuming that there may be others who are in the same boat as me.


Yup. Same boat here except I'm looking at the FF35 instead of the 645.

I was planning on just waiting until the Monstro was ready before trading in my RED. But with the announcement of Epic-X, the decision just got a lot harder (I wonder how much those free modules are worth?). I have a feeling there will be a lot of almost new "Limited Edition" Epic-X brains for sale when the Monstro becomes available.

[Jaime Vallés]

I think the right answer to Brooks original post is:

Buy the Epic 645 with all the necessary modules, and a Scarlet S35 brain as well.

Those $7000 extra for the Scarlet S35 brain will allow you to offer a lower-cost package to those clients that want one so you don't lose their business. If they want more features, tell them you have the 645 they can swap into their package for $$$$. Plus, you have a backup S35 5K brain in case something happens to the 645.

$7000 seems like an awfully small price to pay for a potentially huge increase in business.

[Tobias Roediger]

The Epic X is a lot more of a theat to the R1 than any Scarlet, mainly due to slow-mo.
One question is, how would a R1 ugraded with Mysterium-X fare, when compared to an Epic-X???

Emmanuel

Isn't that the point though? I know RED will support the R1… but from a certain standpoint they would be better off if everyone with a R1 traded it in.

[Leo Ticheli]

It's my strongly felt opinion that the S35 Scarlet is a foolish choice for anyone under any circumstances, other than it's slightly sooner availability.

Is there any professional individual or organization that cannot afford an additional $2700.00 for the vastly superior FF35 Scarlet? Bearing in mind that this additional cost is but one part of the cost of a complete system, it's quite likely less than 10% of the total cost of a complete package. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Frankly, I feel much the same way about the S35 Epic. Only because I hope the FF35 Scarlet will serve as my A camera for sync shooting am I opting for the Epic X upgrade from our Red One.

Added to my thinking as of today is the fear that the actual delivery of Monstro cameras may not be as soon as predicted. History can often be instructive.

Let's face it, if the Monstro cameras were available at the same time as the Mysterium models, how many of us would choose the lesser of the two?

What delightful choices we do have!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Chris Kenny]

One answer here, of course, to just buy the $7000 camera (or the $10,000 one -- seems silly not to spend a bit more for the FF35 Scarlet) and rent the $43,000 one for the occasional job that requires it. As an owner/operator or small shop, your goal should be to own the stuff that you know you'll use on every single shoot, but not to try to own everything you'd ever need for every possible shoot. Small shops have treated high-priced accessories like this forever. Red's modular system just brings the same flexibility to the camera "brain".

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I feel Brook's fear as my own.
I dont see the big difference in specs between the brains (including the R1 upgraded body) but I do see the price range vary a lot.
Jim has stated that the difference in capabilities of each brain will give each one its own niche. But from what I have seen I dont understand why would you get a EPIC FF35 when the R1 can get the job done right in most scenarios. (Please dont remind me the slow mo feature I know we have but rarely use)...
Also, I have seen editors, post houses, fx guys, whine all the time about the complications involved in working in 4K, I cant imagine what they would say when you show up with 10 hard drives saying: here is my 30 seconds spot ready for editing composing and fx-ing. So would it be wise just right now to buy a 6K system? Will that be read too on my mac laptop? I am pretty sure sometime soon computers will speed up, but I see the cams moving faster than the computers. So in terms of the business, is that worth it or not? The treat for us R1 owners is a present from Jim with the accesories on the Epic X. BUT, what are those amazing specs that we are missing in order to make up our minds!!!

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

On the other hand.. there is something I dont understand maybe its a good thread to post: Are the film lenses capable of producing the FF35 image required for the Monstro sensor? Because as far as I knew the biggest image the lenses can produce is up to S35. FF35 is for still lenses, not motion picture. But I could be wrong.. Hopefully am wrong..

[Cüneyt Kaya]

just to get an idea...

lets say brook is right and an average epic goes out for 1500-2000 usd...
ok you get 350 fps @ 2k for that.

I never used a phantom hd.
how much does renting cost and what are the exact specifications?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

On the other hand.. there is something I dont understand maybe its a good thread to post: Are the film lenses capable of producing the FF35 image required for the Monstro sensor? Because as far as I knew the biggest image the lenses can produce is up to S35. FF35 is for still lenses, not motion picture. But I could be wrong.. Hopefully am wrong..

i guess you would add a pl mount to the ff35 and just use a smaller fraction of the 6k sensor and still get the DR.

[Gunleik Groven]

i guess you would add a pl mount to the ff35 and just use a smaller fraction of the 6k sensor and still get the DR.

Which is why a monstro/S35 makes sense...

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Which is why a monstro/S35 makes sense...

Indeed... but the EPIC X is mysterium X, so the upgrade path seems blurry. To me at least.

[Gunleik Groven]

(Pondering further...)

A huge factor here is going to be the price/quality of the FF optics...

[Brook Willard]

(Pondering further...)

A huge factor here is going to be the price/quality of the FF optics...

No, because most people who own a FF35 will be using PL-mount glass on it in a windowed super 35mm mode.

FF optics for motion will be more of a specialty item.

[Gunleik Groven]

No, because most people who own a FF35 will be using PL-mount glass on it in a windowed super 35mm mode.

FF optics for motion will be more of a specialty item.

Yes... and...
If RED has one of their master-plans for FF optics, it could kinda explain the lack of an S35/Monstro combo.

Let's say that their primes cover FF and they are priced as they are and could be compared to Cooke S4s...

AND then comes the anamorphics.

More people would have an affordable way to use the FF AND arri/zess (or any other optics maker) would be up to a challenge.

Just thinkin' out loud here...

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Yes... and...
If RED has one of their master-plans for FF optics, it could kinda explain the lack of an S35/Monstro combo.

Just thinkin' out loud here

but do ACs and DOPs want to shoot on FF optics ?---dont know...seriously

[Gunleik Groven]

but do ACs and DOPs want to shoot on FF optics ?---dont know...seriously

Me neither, but with all the shouting for IMAX/70mm formats a while back, this could make sense.

(I am slow, but still...)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Me neither, but with all the shouting for IMAX/70mm formats a while back, this could make sense.

(I am slow, but still...)

didnt think about IMAX....possible....directors will want it...ACs will hate it..hehe

[Brook Willard]

Discussion split to a new thread.

[Häakon]

As it stands, there is the RED ONE. At $18,000 for a camera body, a good body package will run about $50,000-60,000 [not including follow focus, mattebox, lenses or support... but including media and batteries].
I see these kinds of posts from time to time and they just sorta baffle me. Unless you're throwing in a couple of Master Primes in your kit, I'm not sure how the figures grow so high.

When I got my RED ONE package, I bought a brand new O'Connor head and sticks, a wireless follow focus, new 19mm mattebox to replace the old one I had, and just about every accessory RED supplied under the sun (sans the EVF) and I didn't spend over $40,000. In fact, it was well short of that. So I think that number is a bit inflated... I think $20,000 above and beyond the price of the camera should be plenty if lenses are not a part of the equation. And while that may seem like splitting hairs to some, $10,000 is a lot of change in today's economy - or from another perspective, the difference between getting that FF35 or the 645. Just my two cents.

[Isaac Brody]

I don't understand why this is a fear. I mean yes there will be a glut of people owning Scarlets and jocking for a piece of Red pie, but the professionals and good shooters will stand out among the amateurs. We've seen it with the recent advances in DV/HDV/P2. I think the only time it will bite you in the ass is if a company is looking at two people for a job, one with an Red/Epic package and the other with a Scarlet. And if both people have really good work it will probably come down to cost.

[Stephen Williams]

. And if both people have really good work it will probably come down to cost.

Hi,

If you do good work, people will pay a premium.

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

I see these kinds of posts from time to time and they just sorta baffle me. Unless you're throwing in a couple of Master Primes in your kit, I'm not sure how the figures grow so high.

RED ONE $18,000
7" LCD $2,500
EVF $2,950
RED DRIVE x3 $2,700
RED RAM x2 $9,000
16GB CFs x8 $4,400
Quick Plate $500
Battery Plate $175
Extra EVF/LCD Cables x2 $360
DRIVE/RAM cables x4 $800
Top Handle w/extension $325
Arri 15mm base $600
Noga Arm $150
Anton Bauer VCLX Block w/chargers x3 $6,500
Varizoom 190wh batts w/charger $3,220
AJA Downconverter $1,500
VF start/stop button $150

ET Top Combo, EVF mount, extension, v-dock system, breakout box, handle riser... their site is broken, so I'll say $4,000


Total: $57,830

This doesn't include cases, smaller AKS items, many cables, rods or any kind of support, matte boxes, follow focus or lenses. There are lots of little things that one would need to buy to piece this kit together that would hit the magic $60,000 figure.

But that's where I get the number from.

Not everybody would make the same decisions. Lots would go with less media, different batteries, no backups etc. That's cool. At most, those parts would save you $10,000.

[Häakon]

Lots would go with less media, different batteries, no backups etc. That's cool. At most, those parts would save you $10,000.
You're right... and that's the $10,000 I was talking about. :-) To each their own; I was just pointing out that the $10,000 difference due to splurging on accessories could well be someone's difference between getting the FF35 or the 645, for example.

[Brook Willard]

You're right... and that's the $10,000 I was talking about. :-) To each their own; I was just pointing out that the $10,000 difference due to splurging on accessories could well be someone's difference between getting the FF35 or the 645, for example.

No, I see your point. That's why I mentioned it in my original post. :)


...a good body package will run about $50,000-60,000...

...a good body package you'll want to take out on any job will be another $20-35,000 [over the cost of the body]

So while I obviously specced out an all-the-trimmings package, there are many ways to make it less expensive. The person who's struggling to afford the camera wouldn't and shouldn't spend $10,000 on batteries.

I can tell you that when I get a 645... it's sure not going to be that awesome. :) That's more of a package I'd take out of Keslow on a job.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I don't understand why this is a fear. I mean yes there will be a glut of people owning Scarlets and jocking for a piece of Red pie, but the professionals and good shooters will stand out among the amateurs. We've seen it with the recent advances in DV/HDV/P2. I think the only time it will bite you in the ass is if a company is looking at two people for a job, one with an Red/Epic package and the other with a Scarlet. And if both people have really good work it will probably come down to cost.

I think one of the fears could lie in the fact that a year from now most of the stuff you can do with a R1 you could be able to do with a Scarlet. Because of the specs showed earlier, you can certainly think the Scarlet is an improved R1 with limited extra options like ramping or red code codec quality (I dont know if still RC100 would be much better than RC36 I guess it will in deed) but on the other hand with an equally comparable sensor or an even better one for half the price of the original "brain" investment. Regarding the advances in DV that large companies have made I suppose that the Redcode 100 will be better than the RC28 or 36 that we are used to be working with, but the Epic's RC225 could relate to what the advances and limitations of the previous ones could limit. In other words, we could also interpret that the scarlet's limitation that Jim has tried to point out relies in the codec's ability to compress the images that the processor or brain can handle, giving us better images on the R1 and the Epics than in the scarlets. I mean, there must be a difference in image quality between a 7K$, a 17K$ and a 28K equipment! Just a thought..

[dino g]

what about the computer(s) you need to buy to be efficient on set...

decent mac pro x 2 - 20k
mac book pro or imac - 4k
drives - 4k (to start, more as time goes on)
monitors - cinema displays - 6 x 1000 = 6k
cases for the above - 3k
battery backup x 3 - 1k
preston cables - 3k (2 x mdr1, mdr2, mdr3), 4 x power to anton, microforce)


that is another 40K+, plus the stuff i am leaving out (too late)...

dino

[Häakon]

You need two mac pros, a mac book, $4,000 worth of drives, and six cinema displays to be "efficient on set?"

Haha... man, you must have demanding clients...

[Tom Lowe]

I don't understand why this is a fear. I mean yes there will be a glut of people owning Scarlets and jocking for a piece of Red pie, but the professionals and good shooters will stand out among the amateurs. We've seen it with the recent advances in DV/HDV/P2. I think the only time it will bite you in the ass is if a company is looking at two people for a job, one with an Red/Epic package and the other with a Scarlet. And if both people have really good work it will probably come down to cost.

Good point. People who are worried that some punk down the street with a Scarlet is going to steal their business away should concentrate on becoming better DPs and forging relationships with industry people, instead of thinking they need to rely on some slim and always fleeting technical edge to keep them in business.

[Brook Willard]

what about the computer(s) you need to buy to be efficient on set...

decent mac pro x 2 - 20k
mac book pro or imac - 4k
drives - 4k (to start, more as time goes on)
monitors - cinema displays - 6 x 1000 = 6k
cases for the above - 3k
battery backup x 3 - 1k
preston cables - 3k (2 x mdr1, mdr2, mdr3), 4 x power to anton, microforce)


that is another 40K+, plus the stuff i am leaving out (too late)...

dino


Dino's right. Hell, my DIT cart alone would have a $40,000 replacement cost if it went away tomorrow. He and I are probably the guys who deal with some of the largest clients in LA... fast shoots need instant turnaround and big clients like big toys. :)

[dino g]

we create half high pro res files on set plus provide an environment for the DP to color grade in redcine and scratch as we shoot, plus we build the final cut timeline and actual cut spots in some situations, with a 3 or 4 camera shoot you need that kind of horse power to deliver 1 tb x 4 at the end of the day...500 gigs of camera data and 500 gigs of down converts. we require the prod company to bring two gtech graid2's 1tb to set and we also bring two. (with multi-camera shoots maybe more) we have a copy of everyshot that our camera has ever shot in 15 months...that is several hundred TB...if you are not doing this, then you are not getting or servicing the kind of clients, (academy award winning people) as brook says, as we are, but you may have to in the future as this is what more and more production companies come to expect from the DIT/TECH/Owner Op.

to clarify, when i say efficient, i men you have the horse power to do all of these things and not be left at set 5 hours after wrap. i do not be efficient in getting to set and setting up.

we always have to remember that our job is to make everyone on set not know that there is a difference between using a RED versus any other format. virtually everyone else on set does their job exactly the same at the same pace, except (in the case of film) there is no loader, no developing, no prep for telecine, no telecine, no tapes...you know the drill by now, but on set, seemless, humble, one step ahead to be on time.

[Häakon]

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. :-) I just don't like the pervasive message that some people continue to send that you "need" $60,000 for a RED package and $40,000 for a computer package to use a RED system effectively. Plenty of users are out shooting fully legit features with a Mac Book Pro and a card reader and are turning around files just fine. You still get as much redundant backup as your heart desires. I also think that some people's approach to the post pipeline is still quite wacky, but that's a topic for an entirely different conversation...

Anyway, I think one of the largest appeals of the RED approach is that it isn't film and it isn't like any other high end video camera on the market. You DON'T need all of that extra stuff to do your job well... there's no refrigerator thethering or changing tents or ridiculous amounts of data to shuffle around. One can always make the job harder than it needs to be, but I think there are enough people who get that already or you wouldn't see the kind of varied crowd here that we do. That democratization is what makes RED beautiful.

[Rick Darge]

Amen Häakon


Different strokes for different folks, I guess. :-) I just don't like the pervasive message that some people continue to send that you "need" $60,000 for a RED package and $40,000 for a computer package to use a RED system effectively. Plenty of users are out shooting fully legit features with a Mac Book Pro and a card reader and are turning around files just fine. You still get as much redundant backup as your heart desires. I also think that some people's approach to the post pipeline is still quite wacky, but that's a topic for an entirely different conversation...

Anyway, I think one of the largest appeals of the RED approach is that it isn't film and it isn't like any other high end video camera on the market. You DON'T need all of that extra stuff to do your job well... there's no refrigerator thethering or changing tents or ridiculous amounts of data to shuffle around. One can always make the job harder than it needs to be, but I think there are enough people who get that already or you wouldn't see the kind of varied crowd here that we do. That democratization is what makes RED beautiful.

[Evin Grant]

There are two different approaches here, both are legit. Brook's and Dino's is a specific need, I get by fine with a Macbook Pro and a UPS on a $200 rock-n-roller cart.
That doesn't mean I don't have the Mac Daddy 8 core/30" cinema/Reference grade system at home for finishing and transcoding though.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I too had to switch between the good old G5 towards the Intel based Macs. I used to be able to cut all my stuff in the G5 with no issues, uploading from Digibeta. I really like to editing now, but that doesnt mean I didnt have to add a couple K's to my system.

[Kyle Mallory]

Dino's right. Hell, my DIT cart alone would have a $40,000 replacement cost if it went away tomorrow. He and I are probably the guys who deal with some of the largest clients in LA... fast shoots need instant turnaround and big clients like big toys. :)

Brook

Just following this thread, and thought I would chime in my .02 worth. I think you have a valid concern about the various models canabolizing the market, but I also think as someone pointed out, that it won't be all that bad.

75% of all projects will need a Sc FF35. A Sc FF35 rental might be 200$/day.
15% of all projects will need a Ep S35. An Ep S35 rental might be $500/day.
8% of all projects will need a Ep F35. An Ep F35 rental might be $1200/day.
2% of all project will need an Ep 645. An Ep 645 rental might be $3000/day (maybe even upwards of $4k/day?).

The factor of which projects will need which camera is based on the differences of the camera. The point is, the more niche that a camera fulfills (a smaller piece of the pie) people will be willing to pay an exponentially higher rental rate for the capabilities of that camera. I'm just speculating on the rental rates, but if a project deems a need for a 645, and there is only 2 in a thousand mile radius, and the going rate for both of those cameras is $5000/day, without any weekly discounts, etc. and that is what the 2% of the project requires.. they projects that can afford it, will.

I think its a mistake to think (fyi, you are correct in /your/ thinking) that just because the 645 can shoot S35, that people will be willing to pay for a 645 at $3k/day over an Sc F35. It doesn't make sense for the producer/DP.

I'm considering buying the Ep F35, taking this model into account. After reading through this thread, I think I'll buy an Sc S35 because at the price point, its a trival "add-on".

I send my R1 out about once every 3 weeks, on average for two to three days (a 3:20 ratio). No a super strong rental market in Utah, bit it pays for itself. Going to the Ep, I hope will give me a niche that will probably kill my rental frequency to 1:30, but will also give me higher-end clients who are willing to pay a premium for the extra lattitude, frame rate, etc.

I also think that the quality of service, and in particular, the span of services that you offer will also play a role. Ie, you DI cart. Sure, you can rent a Sc F35 for $200/day (and nothing else), and for some productions that is fine. But again, discriminating clients would rather pay $1200/day for a Sc F35 knowing that they get a top-rate DIT and his cart for onset dailies, color management, data processing and archival.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

It's not so much the lowering of the cost of equipment and the increase in owner/operators that concerns me. It's that a $7,000 camera and a $43,000 camera do the exact same thing for a lot of productions.

I think you are right Brook. But the extra dynamic range of the Monstro chip and electronics will be worth money to a client who cares about the image. How much money will vary from client to client I suppose.. but that is an advantage of Epic or Scarlet FF over older and cheaper RED cameras.
I'd love to buy a 645 myself, but I can't imagine many clients actually wanting me to film in medium format. I'm going to get a FF35 Scarlet because it has the better dynamic range and I want it to replace my 5D, but the vast majority of paying clients aren't going to care about more that 4K S35 for the next few years I don't think. I mean how many people even get to film-out @ 2K?
However if we are serious about taking stills or a new "stills-like" motion picture format (meaning a new art form that RED is making possible), then 645 or 617 are suddenly very attractive I think. If I had the money I would buy a 645, but I don't think it would be a business investment unless I could carve a little niche for myself..

[CJ Roy]

There are two different approaches here, both are legit. Brook's and Dino's is a specific need, I get by fine with a Macbook Pro and a UPS on a $200 rock-n-roller cart.

Agreed. Depending on the job and the client, you may need more or you may need less. Best to be prepared for large jobs, but there is such a thing as too much for the smaller ones. One size doesn't necessarily fit all.

And for the record, everyone that I've come across that has worked with Dino, always speaks very highly of him.

-CJ