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david farland
12-03-2008, 06:06 PM
…….a bit of math on R1/Epic upgrade options.

For non-R1 owners the market price of an s35 today is $17.5K.
This is based on buying a R1 at $17.5K and trading-in for an Epic X with $10K? worth of free accessories.

For existing R1 owners, the cost of an Epic X is $0K.
Based on trading-in the R1 for Epic X with $10K worth of free accessories.
For existing R1 owners, the previous (13 Nov) cost of an s35 was $10K.

Buyers who want to enter the pro cinema (Epic) market cheaply can buy either a second hand s35 with higher fps or a new FF35 with higher stops.
So let’s set the resale price of a 2nd hand s35 at $8K slightly under a new FF35 Scarlet ($10K).

The next step will be buying a FF35 at $33K. So here are the sums……

For existing R1 owners, the R1/Epic X upgrade path to a FF35 will be $0K + $33K - $8K = $25K
For existing R1 owners, the R1/ FF35 upgrade path to a FF35 will be $5K + $33K - $17K = $21K

The old R1/Epic s35 upgrade to FF35 cost about $37K vs. $21K.…hence my comments ...'the camera nobody wanted'.
Jim’s Epic X offer corrected this scenario.

My comments are/were given to help you guys make buying decisions.

I regret if it offended people.
Dave,

ps:the explanation/figures in gray have changed due to everyone's subsequent comments and corrections.
I have updated them here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=340276&postcount=46) rather than void 30 good posts

jimhare
12-03-2008, 06:58 PM
I see. So you buy the accessories for $10k as you'll need them anyway, and the brain becomes "free."

Interesting.

Look Dave, I'm sure no one was offended by your comments. That's the great thing about an open forum, everyone chimes in and can be honest!

Forum wouldn't be the same without ya!

Cheers,

Jim

Cüneyt Kaya
12-03-2008, 07:04 PM
david you are good in making some arguments...
its a pleasure to follow discussions you are involved in.

running the numbers and decide will be tough next year.

Mark L. Pederson
12-03-2008, 07:07 PM
[COLOR=white]For existing R1 owners, the R1/ FF35 upgrade path to a FF35 will be $5K + $33K - $17K = $21K
Dave,

David -

It's been a LONG day - so forgive me - my brain is shot - can you walk me through this one?

Cüneyt Kaya
12-03-2008, 07:09 PM
David -

It's been a LONG day - so forgive me - my brain is shot - can you walk me through this one?

+4,5 k R1 sensor upgrade
+33 k epic brain
-17,5k credit

Mark L. Pederson
12-03-2008, 07:12 PM
+4,5 k R1 sensor upgrade
+33 k epic brain
-17,5k credit

copy that - the 5K threw me -

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 07:29 PM
copy that - the 5K threw me -

yeah, why upgrade your Red One with an S35 sensor for 4.5k when you're planning on buying the FF35; unless you just have to have 1 more stop between the summer and winter of next year.

Pawel Achtel
12-03-2008, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the sumary, Dave.

I agree, the Dec. 3rd offer looks not only good on specs (high frame rates, etc..), but financially very attractive too. I know I will be trading in for Epic X and, with the savings, I will get another body, most likely Scarlet FF35. Perhaps some glass too...

Thanks for the maths.

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 07:40 PM
…….a bit of math on R1/Epic upgrade options.

For non-R1 owners the market price of an s35 today is $17.5K.
This is based on buying a R1 at $17.5K and trading-in for an Epic X with $10K? worth of free accessories.

For existing R1 owners, the cost of an Epic X is $0K.
Based on trading-in the R1 for Epic X with $10K worth of free accessories.
For existing R1 owners, the previous (3rd Dec) cost of an s35 was $10K.

Buyers who want to enter the pro cinema (Epic) market cheaply can buy either a second hand s35 with higher fps or a new FF35 with higher stops. So let’s set the resale price of a 2nd hand s35 at $8K slightly under a new FF35 Scarlet ($10K).

The next step will be buying a FF35 at $33K. So here are the sums……

For existing R1 owners, the R1/Epic X upgrade path to a FF35 will be $0K + $33K - $8K = $25K
For existing R1 owners, the R1/ FF35 upgrade path to a FF35 will be $5K + $33K - $17K = $21K

The old R1/Epic s35 upgrade to FF35 cost about $35K vs. $21K.…hence my comments ...'the camera nobody wanted'.
Jim’s Epic X offer corrected this scenario.

My comments are/were given to help you guys make buying decisions.

I regret if it offended people.
Dave,

David,

Are you saying the Epic X costs $0 for Red One owners? Can you provide the link to Jim saying that?

From what I understood from the long brochure posted Dec 3rd was that the modules were at no extra cost. But the wording said, "A full trade-in allowance of $17,500 for a Red One is credited towards this special package."

Jim repeats this again in the same post: "3. Trade your RED ONE in, and receive $17,500 credit, towards the purchase of an EPIC-X S35 Private Reserve package, which is only available to RED ONE customers."

The words "credited towards" implies to me that 17.5k isn't enough and you'll have to pay more.

The Epic X is listed in the brochure at $28k and is said to be "Available as an upgrade from Red One only."

So I thought it was going to cost $10.5k more to upgrade to the Epic X as a Red One owner.

Am I missing something or misunderstanding your post?

Zakaree Sandberg
12-03-2008, 07:48 PM
Jason..
He is basically saying you get 10 grand (maybe) of free accessories..
the battery mod, recording mod, so on...

Zakaree Sandberg
12-03-2008, 07:49 PM
I think...

Fredrik Callinggard
12-03-2008, 07:51 PM
So I thought it was going to cost $10.5k more to upgrade to the Epic X as a Red One owner.

Am I missing something or misunderstanding your post?

Yes but it basically means that R1 to Epic brain is for free. You simply have to pay for the accessories (10.5K). Therefor the Epic itself is for free.

Edit: saw that Zakaree got before me.

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 07:51 PM
But he put the cost of an Epic X in at "0k". And put it in bold.

david farland
12-03-2008, 07:52 PM
Thanks guys.....your words mean so much to me, dave

ps:jason, I get the zero cost for a s35($28k) by adding $17.5k (R1) + accessories which you'll need to buy anyway ($10k?) = $28K(ish)

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 07:52 PM
Yes but it basically means that R1 to Epic brain is for free. You simply have to pay for the accessories (10.5K). Therefor the Epic itself is for free.

Edit: saw that Zakaree got before me.


No, the accessories are free.

Peter McCully
12-03-2008, 07:52 PM
I too am completely flumoxed by your calculations David. The S35 Epic X will cost $10.5K plus a Red or $17.5K, not $0. I would like to eventually get Epic 645 but in the meantime the way in to the system seems to be Epic X. I guess we'll have to wait for the accessories pricing to know what value the special package really represents.

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 07:56 PM
Guys, I'm starting to feel retarded here. What am I missing?

Let's try to find some facts we can all agree on just by reading the brochure:

Fact 1) Red One = $17.5k credit
Fact 2) Modules are "at no additional cost"
Fact 3) Epic X listed price is $28k (brain, cf module, io module, battery module)
Fact 4) There is a $10.5k difference.

jimhare
12-03-2008, 07:58 PM
Zakaree is right, Dave isn't saying R1 owners get a Free EpicX, he's just switching the free bit from the accessories (pay $10k for them) to the brain upgrade ($17,500 + $10k credit) free.

This is all on the assumption that the accessories are $10k. I have a feeling they will be substantially less for the bits that come with Epic X.

Interesting thread though!

Thomas Koch
12-03-2008, 07:59 PM
I don't think the modules will be 10K. Think about it. CF module for RED ONE is $500. Batteries are $1500. IO and control panel are the unknowns. I can't imagine it would be $8000 for those two items.

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 08:08 PM
Zakaree is right, Dave isn't saying R1 owners get a Free EpicX, he's just switching the free bit from the accessories (pay $10k for them) to the brain upgrade ($17,500 + $10k credit) free.

This is all on the assumption that the accessories are $10k. I have a feeling they will be substantially less for the bits that come with Epic X.

Interesting thread though!

Whichever way it's switched, there is a 10.5k difference that will come out of each Red Owner's pocket who upgrades to the Epic X.

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 08:09 PM
And no offense, David, but if my calculations and understanding is correct, then your calculations are not correct.

David Battistella
12-03-2008, 08:16 PM
I have not seen ONE RED person respond in this thread to confirm whether ANY of this information is correct.

I am just looking for CLEAR information..

What I READ yesterday was that a RED ONE 17.5 upgrade would require an ADDITIONAL 10.5K to buy and EPIC BRAIN with MYSTERIUM X with the accesories to create "working camera" FREE.

What am I missing?

RED.
Please help dispell any speculation.

FACTS. FACTS. FACTS.

This is all I give a shit about in this sea of hype and bullshit.

David

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 08:19 PM
Good. A confirmation. And I'm reading other threads with a lot of users saying the same thing.

You're right David.

And my calculations are based on the brochure. Facts.

Bottom line: $10.5 more to get an Epic X Limited Edition.

Chris Gearhart
12-03-2008, 08:24 PM
For existing R1 owners, the previous (3rd Dec) cost of an s35 was $10K

OK, I get it. This is the line that was throwing me. I assume now that you meant Nov 14 as the previous cost? It sounded like there was a response buried in the 100+ page response thread that gave us an extra $10k.

david farland
12-03-2008, 08:35 PM
Chris,
thanks I changed the date of 'previous announcement' from 3 Dec to 13 Nov. Dave

what's up for conjecture is the free accessories are worth 10K and a second hand Epic S35 is worth about (or less) a new Epic FF35.

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 08:35 PM
The previous cost (Nov. 13) was $28k for an S35 brain only minus the 17.5k credit. The upgrade is 10.5k.

It's exactly the same now: 10.5K. Except Jim is throwing in three modules that will give you a working camera for free (and a slightly better Mysterium X Sensor, I think).

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 08:38 PM
David,

Jim said the accessories are free!

They're not worth 10k.

I think you're saying that so you can feel better about it and make it seem like we're getting a free camera. You're switching the numbers around. The "conjecture" is you trying to come to terms with this 10.5k figure.

I don't mean any disrespect, but you're starting completely false rumors that even Mark Pederson is repeating in another thread.

Joseph Ward
12-03-2008, 08:42 PM
I don't think the modules will be 10K. Think about it. CF module for RED ONE is $500. Batteries are $1500. IO and control panel are the unknowns. I can't imagine it would be $8000 for those two items.
The modules should be under a $1000 each(not including Lenses)? :detective2: Here are links that show some tech, and prices.
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/10/13/tiny-43-inch-usb-powered-lcd-monitor/
http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/21/nec-creates-tiny-full-hd-compatible-lcd-module/
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/387810-REG/Marantz__PMD_660K_Portable_Compact.html#features
http://www.acetoolonline.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MIL-48-11-2401&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase
http://www.pricewatch.com/hard_removable_drives/ssd_128gb.htm
I know Red will have better tech than theses, with different prices, when the brains arrive.


Guys, I'm starting to feel retarded here. What am I missing?

Let's try to find some facts we can all agree on just by reading the brochure:

Fact 1) Red One = $17.5k credit
Fact 2) Modules are "at no additional cost"
Fact 3) Epic X listed price is $28k (brain, cf module, io module, battery module)
Fact 4) There is a $10.5k difference.

That is correct!

J. Eric Camp
12-03-2008, 08:42 PM
My take is.

10.5k you get an S35-X
and you still need the riser, top mounts etc

4.5k you make your R1 into an S35
your current stuff works.

If you want a FF35 (which seems to be Davids concern) you have two paths.

Take the S35-X path.
$10.5k
Lets say $2k more in accessories.
Then a FF35 brain at $33k.

Total : $45.5k

David has assumed that you will sell the S35 brain for $8k. I will assume $15k as I would pay it for a $28k device assuming it's in good condition. (This makes the X series modules free to you.)

$45.5
- 15
-----
$30.5k total cost of an R! to S35X to FF35 path.

Hold on to your R1 and take the FF35 trade in:
$33k
- $17k
------
$16k

Lets call AKS $10.5k (an educated guess that RED is allowing the R1 to trade for the S35 and charging for the Modules only)
$16
+ $10.5
------
$26.5k

Plus the $2k in AKS

$28.5k

So as far as I see it there is a marginal difference ($2k*) for the two paths if FF35 is your goal.

Now if you get impatient while waiting for the FF35 and pay the $4.5k to upgrade the R1 now it is 2k more expensive of a path. Either way, the paths are with in a roughly 2k tolerance.

The question for me is, what specs would one expect from the R1 with the new sensors? If I put a X sensor into an R1 will it come with the various components to allow it to hit the same bench marks as the S35?


*(If the three modules CF, I/O and battery are actually less than 10.5k then the wait for the FF35 path gets way better.)
** Again this is all assuming that you want the FF35 and will only own one brain.

Mark L. Pederson
12-03-2008, 08:43 PM
I don't mean any disrespect, but you're starting completely false rumors that even Mark Pederson is repeating in another thread.

He's just speculating. It is conjecture.

Mark L. Pederson
12-03-2008, 08:48 PM
The question for me is, what specs would one expect from the R1 with the new sensors? If I put a X sensor into an R1 will it come with the various components to allow it to hit the same bench marks as the S35?

Yes Mr. Camp. The $64,000 question.

Will Red One upgraded to Mysterium-X do everything and MORE than the Scarlet S35??

Again, big question for MANY here is ... WHEN can they get that M-X chip in their Red One.

I bet Mysterium-X (in the Red One) will handle eveything. I bet MONSTRO will not. Maybe MONSTRO will require board change, etc. maybe the upgrade is more money ..?

Shawn Nelson
12-03-2008, 08:59 PM
and will a R1 with upgraded mysterium-x have the same specs as a Epic-x brain? That's my big question

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 08:59 PM
He's just speculating. It is conjecture.

I understand that. But it's a different kind of speculating and conjecture. He's switching numbers. He's trying to account for the 10k difference; which is the price difference in upgrading, not modules. He's trying to make it seem like the Epic X is free so he feels better about it.

You took the 10k and speculated, like David, that it is somehow tied to the modules. But the modules are free! 10k is for the upgrade.

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 09:01 PM
and will a R1 with upgraded mysterium-x have the same specs as a Epic-x brain? That's my big question

I got the feeling it would be better.

"Mysterium X" Redcode is 225.

"Mysterium X Select" Redcode is listed at 250. And Jarred said it was the best in the litter.

Zakaree Sandberg
12-03-2008, 09:01 PM
im going to go out on a limb and say the accessories (mods) will be a little bit more expensive than the speculated (under 1000)
its a much more complex system and a cf or recording mod will not be just a card, but a series of complex circuitry. I would guess 3-4 grand per module.

Stephen Pruitt
12-03-2008, 09:10 PM
There are really just two crucial questions that no one is going to be able to answer just now:

Question 1: What REDCode will an updated RED One operate at? (Currently, it is REDCode 36. The new Epic-X will run REDCode 250. That is a HUGE amount of difference.)

Question 2: Assuming that an updated RED One will NOT use the same REDCode, what VISUAL difference will there be between the two REDCodes?

Any conjecture?

Stephen

jaadgy akanni
12-03-2008, 09:20 PM
uh oh! Could this thread be the prelude to complaining and bitching?

Oh I feel it coming back again
Like a rolling thunder chasing the wind...

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 09:24 PM
uh oh! Could this thread be the prelude to complaining and bitching?

Oh I feel it coming back again
Like a rolling thunder chasing the wind...

lol. look who started it.

just kidding, david. :bleh:

Justin Kirchhoff
12-03-2008, 09:29 PM
Isn't one of the points to the new cameras is to have better, faster "guts", allowing faster data rates and frame rates?

When Jim and the RED team first developed the R1 it was over 2 years ago with slower circuitry boards and incorporated technology that now seems ancient compared to what the Epic and Scarlet will be able to do.

If the R1 is able to do REDcode 225, I'll be extremely impressed (and who wouldn't be), but I feel that the inner architecture of the R1 won't be able to do it. If this proves to be wrong in the future then consider me wrong.

david farland
12-03-2008, 09:53 PM
Jason, you’re correct. I’m wrong.
The RHS of the Epic X equation gives you an Epic FF35 plus $10K (or X dollars) worth of accessories.
Thanks for you’re persistence!

For existing R1 owners, the R1/Epic X upgrade path to a FF35 will be $0K + $33K - $8K = $25K = EpicFF35 + $10k accessories
For existing R1 owners, the R1/ FF35 upgrade path to a FF35 will be $5K + $33K - $17K =$21K +$10K = EpicFF35 + $10k accessories

This is the case if the free accessories are worth $10K. If we find they’re worth only $5K the equations become….

For existing R1 owners, the R1/Epic X upgrade path to a FF35 will be $5K + $33K - $8K = $30K = EpicFF35 + $5k accessories
For existing R1 owners, the R1/ FF35 upgrade path to a FF35 will be $5K + $33K - $17K = $21K +$5K = EpicFF35 +$5k accessories

So if the accessories are worth say $7.5K and your 2nd hand Epic S35 is worth close to a new Scarlet FF35, the two upgrade paths will be very similar. I guess we’ll have to wait on Jim’s accessory price.

Thanks,
Dave

Michael "Dorkman" Scott
12-03-2008, 09:55 PM
This "explanation" just makes me more confused.

Florian Stadler
12-03-2008, 10:24 PM
I don't think a 5 month old epic s35 brain will go from 28k to 8k in resale value. Epic will have more to offer than scarlet other than frame rates although it hasn't been clearly stated by Red what that is. If you think about the control possibilities in the imaging chain beyond resolution, frame rate and dynamic range there are a lot of blanks to fill.

These blanks will be filled.

Also consider this: beyond an effect, for regular dramatic shooting a s35 sensor will be #1 choice. If you're doing s35 on an ff35 sensor you are windowing the sensor. On the r1, when windowing the sensor from 4k to 3k or 2k there is a loss of dynamic range. Ff35 monstro will most likely not outperform x s35 when windowed to s35. You will have the added flexibility to shoot ff35 for still and motion when needed for effect which is nice with the ff35 but also an increase in data that you have to justify with production.

I for one am thinking epic s35 x will be the industy workhorse. Back it up with a s35 scarlet or ff35 scarlet and you're set.

david farland
12-03-2008, 11:34 PM
Couple of things...
Deanan says cropping of the FF35 does not affect dynamic range
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=321658&postcount=1439 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=321658&postcount=1439)

Regarding the second hand Epic S35 price, probably at least 6000 Redusers will have the opportunity to trade in for a 'free' one, so forget most of them.
Then when you're selling your Epic s35, most people will be selling them at the same time the SS35 Epic and Scarlet ($9.5K) is on sale. Expect demand not to be thru the roof. conjecture I realise, but we have to make some sort of plans....
D

...I for one am thinking monstro s35 x will be the industy workhorse.
you mean the Mysterium X s35 I guess.

Jason Ing
12-03-2008, 11:42 PM
David, I get where you're coming from. You're after the Monstro.

In that context...

If the end goal is the Monstro, the Epic X is not the way to go, in my opinion. No matter how you crunch the numbers, there is no getting away from two facts:

1) You have to buy the brain at retail cost.
2) You have to sell a used camera and no longer get the full 17.5k credit.

So if it's the monstro you're after, it's either waiting for the Epic so you can apply the full 17.5 credit towards it, or going for the Scarlett FF35 (the sell of a Red One will hopefully put you into a full working Scarlett?).

Florian Stadler
12-04-2008, 12:35 AM
David,

The epic s35 is not free it's 28000 dollars.

You get 3 free modules as a generous gift as a previous r1 owner AND you get to trade in your r1 at full value which is amazing.

Also know that in 2009 they are going to announce the Terminator sensor and in 2010
the Armageddon sensor and in 2011 the Apocalipso with 14, 15 and 27 stops respectively. Technology is moving on at a brisk pace. Jim has just given you a head start and a modular system that won't force you to upgrade everything but just the brain.
You can skip a generationof sensors if your clients or yourself don't have the need for the latest and greatest and if you're camera is sitting on a shelf rather than be working paying itself off and generating PROFIT.

Yes I meant epic mysterium x s35 becoming the workhorse in 2009/10

david farland
12-04-2008, 06:08 AM
Revised 1st post……..

For existing R1 owners, the cost of an Epic X is $500.
This is based on trading-in the R1 ($17.5K) plus $10.5K for an Epic X ($28K) with $10K worth of free accessories.


For R1 owners, the previous (13 Nov) cost of an s35 was $10.5K.
This was based on trading-in the R1 ($17.5K) plus $10.5K for an Epic X ($28K)

Buyers who want to enter the pro cinema (Epic) market cheaply can buy either a second hand s35 with higher fps or a new FF35 with higher stops. So let’s set the resale price of a 2nd hand s35 at $8K slightly under a new FF35 Scarlet ($10K).

The next step will be buying a FF35 at $33K. So here are the sums……

Existing scenario
1. For existing R1 owners, who trade-in their R1 (plus $10.5K) for an Epic X, buy an Epic FF35($33K) outright, then sell their Epic S35(-$8K), the total cost will be:
$10.5K + $33K - $8K = $35.5K
This gets you an Epic FF35 with $10K worth of accessories.
So the real cost of an Epic FF35 (body only) is:
$35.5K- $10K = $25.5K

2. For existing R1 owners, who upgrade their R1 sensor ($4.5K), then trade-in their R1 ($17.5K) for an Epic FF35 ($33K), the total cost will be:
$4.5K + $33K - $17.5K = $20K
This gets you an Epic FF35 (body only)

Result: Difference in the existing upgrade paths 1 ($25.5K) & path 2 ($20K) = $5.5K

Previous scenario
3. The old R1/Epic s35 upgrade to FF35 deal total cost was:
$10.5K + $35K - $8K = $37.5K

4. The old R1 sensor upgrade, then trade-in the R1 for an Epic FF35 costs:
$4.5K + $35K - $17.5K = $22K

Result: Larger difference in the old upgrade path 3 ($37.5) and path 4 ($22K) = $15.5K

Bottom line: Jim fixed this large difference ($15.5K)with the Epic X deal/Epic FF35 price reduction…..many thanks

Dave

J. Eric Camp
12-04-2008, 07:23 AM
David,
Thats the first post of your on this thread where you math makes sense to me. :)

One thing that is not going into the equation:

How many batteries does everyone own?
Charger?
Top mounts?
Top Handle and extension?
All the little toys?

Now add in the new riser, you are going to want a side handle, etc

If spending any where from $10.5k to $20k to get the next greatest thing is too much for you, then it brings us back to the question of:

If the X sensor, or the monstro, goes into an R1, what else gets swapped out inside the R1 and what specs does that bring the camera to?

None of us can answer that, but it is never the less going to be an answer that will help the people who were dismayed at the Nov-Dec 2008 RED unleashes camerageddon event.

Oh and just to be clear, I am not bashing the DSMC system. I want to do very naughty things to the new system and we've barely meet. This is just me thinking about all of those owner ops who cant afford to throw another 20k at the wall.

Sanjin Jukic
12-04-2008, 07:53 AM
David,
Thats the first post of your on this thread where you math makes sense to me. :)

One thing that is not going into the equation:

How many batteries does everyone own?
Charger?
Top mounts?
Top Handle and extension?
All the little toys?

Now add in the new riser, you are going to want a side handle, etc

If spending any where from $10.5k to $20k to get the next greatest thing is too much for you, then it brings us back to the question of:

If the X sensor, or the monstro, goes into an R1, what else gets swapped out inside the R1 and what specs does that bring the camera to?

None of us can answer that, but it is never the less going to be an answer that will help the people who were dismayed at the Nov-Dec 2008 RED unleashes camerageddon event.

Oh and just to be clear, I am not bashing the DSMC system. I want to do very naughty things to the new system and we've barely meet. This is just me thinking about all of those owner ops who cant afford to throw another 20k at the wall.

Eric,

well said.

Totally agree with you.

Jason Ing
12-04-2008, 09:41 AM
Revised 1st post……..

For existing R1 owners, the cost of an Epic X is $500.
This is based on trading-in the R1 ($17.5K) plus $10.5K for an Epic X ($28K) with $10K worth of free accessories.


For R1 owners, the previous (13 Nov) cost of an s35 was $10.5K.
This was based on trading-in the R1 ($17.5K) plus $10.5K for an Epic X ($28K)

Buyers who want to enter the pro cinema (Epic) market cheaply can buy either a second hand s35 with higher fps or a new FF35 with higher stops. So let’s set the resale price of a 2nd hand s35 at $8K slightly under a new FF35 Scarlet ($10K).

The next step will be buying a FF35 at $33K. So here are the sums……

Existing scenario
1. For existing R1 owners, who trade-in their R1 (plus $10.5K) for an Epic X, buy an Epic FF35($33K) outright, then sell their Epic S35(-$8K), the total cost will be:
$10.5K + $33K - $8K = $35.5K
This gets you an Epic FF35 with $10K worth of accessories.
So the real cost of an Epic FF35 (body only) is:
$35.5K- $10K = $25.5K

2. For existing R1 owners, who upgrade their R1 sensor ($4.5K), then trade-in their R1 ($17.5K) for an Epic FF35 ($33K), the total cost will be:
$4.5K + $33K - $17.5K = $20K
This gets you an Epic FF35 (body only)

Result: Difference in the existing upgrade paths 1 ($25.5K) & path 2 ($20K) = $5.5K

Previous scenario
3. The old R1/Epic s35 upgrade to FF35 deal total cost was:
$10.5K + $35K - $8K = $37.5K

4. The old R1 sensor upgrade, then trade-in the R1 for an Epic FF35 costs:
$4.5K + $35K - $17.5K = $22K

Result: Larger difference in the old upgrade path 3 ($37.5) and path 4 ($22K) = $15.5K

Bottom line: Jim fixed this large difference ($15.5K)with the Epic X deal/Epic FF35 price reduction…..many thanks

Dave

Okay, I get this David. But it's based on a HUGE assumption (as you know) that the accessories is $10k.

But I get what you're saying. We all should be grateful to the RCCF (Red Camera Charity Foundation).

On top of an already generous and unprecedented $17.5k credit, Jim dropped the price by $2k (FF35) and threw in free accessories that could potentially be $10k worth.

Meryem Ersoz
12-04-2008, 09:59 AM
This whole math effort seems completely kooky to me, we don't have any information for making mathematical assumptions about pricing.

RED sweetened their original trade-in deal, so that 1) new buyers are encouraged to keep buying RED ONEs throughout the development process and 2) to enable the RED ONE owners to maintain the value of their cameras in a way that enables their transition into the modular program - so that we can continue to spend more money on modular upgrades, as they develop. This is good business. Win-win for everybody. I can say personally that I will spend more money with a more cheerful attitude, now that I know there is a value-added pathway to the modular system.

They listened and responded with a solution that suits their business needs and keeps their early adopters to be able to adapt more easily to the future path of RED development.

If that is the case, why is this pseudo-math even relevant?

Just a straight up apology and a thank you seems sufficient....

Jeff Kilgroe
12-04-2008, 10:31 AM
This whole math effort seems completely kooky to me, we don't have any information for making mathematical assumptions about pricing.

Thank you!

I appreciate David's efforts, but I think we're all over-analyzing the situation based on a bunch of wild-ass guesses.

I think the best way to look at it is this:

The EPIC S35 costs $28K for the brain alone. We have no information about how much the additional modules will cost. Let's not also forget that everyones' needs are different. Some people will need more modules than others, depending on what they will be doing with the camera.

Current RED owners can trade in their RED One body toward any model of EPIC for $17.5K off the EPIC brain's price.

As an added bonus to RED One owners, they can buy the EPIC X. It's an EPIC S35 with a bonus. RED is going to hand-pick the Mysterium X chips that go into these X brains. I'm going to make another wild-ass guess here and assume that much like processor chips, not all CMOS sensors are equal as they roll off the fab line. By hand-picking these sensors, RED can guarantee better performance, hence the REDCODE 250 on the EPIC X vs. the REDCODE 225 on the EPIC S35. The other part of the bonus for RED One owners buying an EPIC X is that RED is throwing in the CF, battery and IO modules for free... We don't know what the value of those three modules are. David is speculating that they are worth $10K. I don't think so, I'm going to guess $500 to $1500 per module, depending on what it does.

EPIC X brain plus the included modules is also $28K, but with the 3 free modules thrown in. RED owners can buy one outright or trade in their RED One and get $17.5K credit, leaving a $10.5K balance.

Assuming the 3 included modules balance out that $10.5K is pretty foolish, IMO.

J. Eric Camp
12-04-2008, 03:27 PM
And Jeff gets the cookie!

He is right. Semi-complex equations based on "guestamite" numbers will only serve to frustrate people when the real numbers arrive and change the game. For better or worse.

Peter McCully
12-04-2008, 03:39 PM
And Jeff gets the cookie!

He is right. Semi-complex equations based on "guestamite" numbers will only serve to frustrate people when the real numbers arrive and change the game. For better or worse.

I agree. It could be that the "X" factor could be beneficial when R1 owners who have taken the offer on the Epic X decide to sell and trade up to one of the Monstro brains. Perhaps the used X range could hold their value better? The other option would be to spend the $10.5K value of the R1/X trade-in on a Scarlet and use the R1 trade-in later as well as the Scarlet sale when the Monstro arrives. But all is conjecture at this stage.

david farland
12-04-2008, 04:23 PM
The end game of this comparison is of course a Monstro (or higher) sensor which in 4 years we’ll have all achieved or better (unless we’re out of the game or better options than Red (shock thought!) come along
The purpose of the comparison is just that. To compare upgrade paths.
I could have included the R1/Monstro upgrade path as well, but with a number of assumptions already made with the info at hand, that just turns into a meltdown.

Okay, the first assumption I’ve made is value of accessories.This is Jim’s gift or balancing act.
If he decided to give us $100K worth of free accessories, of course the upgrade via Epic X paths becomes more financially attractive.
Similarly, if the value of Jim’s gift is $2K, the Epic X upgrade becomes less financially attractive.
Same goes for the resale value of the Epic S35.

The point of my approach is to get to a Epic Monstro and above.
Getting there I want to know financial estimates. I’ll plan with the facts available to me.
As I get more facts, my plans become more accurate.
Now that doesn’t nullify my approach/equations.
So please stop saying its stupid/crazy/foolish to assume this price or that. It’s a start…okay. We need to start somewhere.
It’s crazier not to begin planning or working out rough business cases and going blindly in the future.
The main thing is I’ve got the simple equations where I plug in the most accurate (or inaccurate) figures at hand.

It can be fine tuned as we get more info….chill guys, don’t read it as an attempt to create the last word in financial mgmt.
Jim does some pretty nice equations where he’s balancing his pricing, costs; timings etc so he can carve out his business cases and it’s nice to get a little insight into that and how the figures float.
Dave,

ps: looking forward to how he’s going to price the same accessories for a $5K & 50K camera.

Thomas Koch
12-04-2008, 05:46 PM
It's about the Brain. The accessories will be a commodity and they will be affordable for all. The brain is priced based on the specs. EPIC is not CHEAP, but it sure is FULLY FEATURED.

SCARLET is enough for HOLLYWOOD and to me is better than RED ONE (Price per performance wise) but will become the indie camera. The EPIC will become the default HOLLYWOOD camera. The S35 one will. NOT the Full Frame dues to the lenses.

Thom Steinhoff
12-04-2008, 05:51 PM
Your numbers are really wacky to me.

First the "trade in" value of the S35X. it is better than the $28K Epic s35 and is a far better camera than is currently out on the market. So, assuming that it is the first camera shipped (which is announced), and it will ship long before the Epic FF.

If someone needs a camera now, and wants to buy the best camera on the market on that day--it would be the S35X. it is a better camera than the S35 which wouldn't even be shipping at that point, and far better than the Red One. Add on top of that--no one will be able to even buy the s35. The X may even have a value greater than $28K--even though I spent only $10.5+my Red for it.

You can't compare "my cost" with the "value" to a non-red owner, camera buyer--to see that go back in history a year when there was a six month waiting list for Reds. Sale price didn't have much to do with what people paid for it. And besides--I didn't just pay $10.5K for it--I also had to trade in the best camera I've ever owned--there's value to that, too.

So where do you get $8K? If someone is looking to buy a camera, and they can't get their hands on any Epic--let alone the x month wait for the FF, and the 35X is the best camera on the market at this time, do you really think that it is only worth $8K when their only other option is to get on a waiting list for a S35 at $28K?

Add on top of that your accessory estimates. I think that's about $2.5K worth of stuff. Compact flash? I'd say $500. Battery module (didn't say anything about actual batteries--just the ability to mount them to the body) I'd say $1000 if that and breakout box can't be more than $1000.

But, in the end of it all--why bother? Just wait and get the full trade in for the FF35 and buy the accessories yourself.

david farland
12-04-2008, 06:45 PM
Most people will be selling their Epic s35 (either) during 1010/1011.
In the market you'll have over 6000 Red owners who don't want your Epic and are probably selling theirs along side you. It won't be like the R1/Epic cutover where Red is taking back all the early models. The S35 Scarlet (7K), FF35 Scarlet (10K), FF35 Epic (33K or R1 trade-in) will all be on the market. Stops & chrom rez are usually more useful than fps. If I'm in the market for a cheaper camera, will I look for your EpicX 100fps/+1stop old technology camera or will i purchase a Scarlet FF35/30fps/+3stops new technology 'Interim' camera @ $10K?
I'll get the Scarlet and use it as a back up for my Epic FF35.
And my guess is that your Epic X will be more value to you as a backup than resale also.
D

David Wyatt
12-05-2008, 06:07 AM
I think the eventual cost of the modules will determine which upgrade people go for - it's a completely unknown quantity right now. It could actually be quite a lot, but fortunately there are one and two bits you can recycle from your Red One.

I'd imagine Red will continue their overly generous, very competitive pricing strategy for these parts purely because a) it seems to be their mantra and b) it would be pretty transparent and a big turn off if people got really excited about these great value new cameras only to eventually discover down the line that the modules to make then work are priced at a prohibitive expensive (kind of like being offered the deal of a lifetime on a brand new all-electric sports car but then discovering the key to turn it on costs almost as much as the car itself - you'd perhaps feel a bit...manipulated...turned off from your original excitement?)

The costs could be as little as, say, $500 for the CF module (presumably not that different to the ones they make now?), maybe a little more for the lens mounts ($750?). Then there's at least four batteries, 2 chargers and the actual battery module itself (sounds pricey - the equivalent with Red One is $3000 without any module!), but this isn't completely essential because I think I'm right in saying you can use your old Red batteries.

The I/O module sounds pretty pricey (if the ET breakout box is $580 Red's I/O module will probably be a lot more than this). But the priciest sounding thing is the Redmote (wireless controller) - this sounds like quite a complex and pricey bit of kit. I'm assuming this is essential for controlling the camera and accessing menus etc? But am I right in thinking this isn't included in the Epic X's free accessories so would be an added cost (sorry to muck up everyone's maths if that is the case :whistling:)?

$10,000 for accessories sounds about right (including top mounts/handles etc) but it could be a lot less, for example, if you can do without the battery module, new batteries and chargers? Then the figure could be more like $6000 (?)

[end of idle speculation]

Nick Wolf
12-05-2008, 06:38 AM
I couldn´t resist ... I`ll risk a lashing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejweI0EQpX8


DogDay.

Michael Lindsay
12-05-2008, 07:38 AM
Hi

The wild conjecture present in this thread is both amusing and telling. I'm puzzled why anyone was originally 'really' upset by David's thinking.

To through in some some potentially useful/useless observations:

Epic X's sensor size is exactly the size needed for a 6 micron chip to have a 5k horizontal resolution. (this make me feel that if monsto development is really only 3-6months behind X there may still be some changes)

A I/O module that encompasses high quality video DA and audio AD/DA stages and a load of formatting chips is unlikely to be cheap. The ET BOB is not that same thing.

An advanced propriety compact flash module that can handle the significant task that a Epic will demand is not like the current clip on SATA device.

If Red answer most of the criticism of the current control system and make a on board WIFI module that doesn't look out of place on a precision high end body expect some $$$ ( I would be stunned if the 4 modules come in for less than a total of $7k)

There is no way 6 thousand people will be offloading Epic Xs at the same time. Relax!

Epic X will sell because it competes in the commercials world and it is very cheap for Red owners. Studio work does not need 13+ stops of dynamic range. Because Epic S35 is more similar to Red one in file type I expect it to slip more quickly into Red one post paths (this will be a big deal). There simply is no other super versatile electronic camera available to compete with it for commercials.

Lets relax a bit in the knowledge that we are at 'least' (I'll take bets from anyone other than Mr Janard) 10months away from the option of 'any' Epic.

regards

Michael L

Chris Kenny
12-05-2008, 12:18 PM
A I/O module that encompasses high quality video DA and audio AD/DA stages and a load of formatting chips is unlikely to be cheap. The ET BOB is not that same thing.


I suspect there's no video D/A. The Red One doesn't have analog video out, and I can't imagine the new I/O module will offer it either.

It's not entirely clear exactly what's being fed from the brain to the I/O module. Are the electronics in the brain responsible for feeding both a compressed Redcode data stream to the recording module and an uncompressed "video tap" image to the I/O module? Or do the brain electronics just feed out the Redcode-compressed signal, which then has to be decoded by the I/O module? If the latter, it's going to be more expensive.

The I/O module is obviously going to need some fairly high-quality D/A and A/D audio components in it, though, which don't come cheap. (Although I'd also like to take this opportunity to put in a request for a digital audio input.)



An advanced propriety compact flash module that can handle the significant task that a Epic will demand is not like the current clip on SATA device.

The module in the Red One is already faster than virtually every CF card on the market. I'm really not sure how much sense CF makes as a recording format for Epic. I wouldn't be stunned to see Red get rid of the option eventually because everyone wants the SSD module instead. (Much like they got rid of the optical port option for the Red One because once REDCODE RAW enabled on-board compressed 4K, there wasn't really enough demand to justify selling it.)

Jason Sinclair
12-09-2008, 12:48 AM
I see what you are saying Dave,

At first glance it seems a bit ill-conceived, how it pans out...

I personally think Jim should listen to you and what you are saying and maybe redo the figures a touch so the upgrade path to monstro is more equitable on the win-win path.

However, i think what most people have been annoyed at is not that fact, but the feeling of being ungrateful when considering the other mathematics...

Red one bought in 2007/8 for $17500.
Redone value in 2009 (before epic release) $17500
This is considering the trade in or the fact that someone will buy it for that (or probably more) to get an early epic.

This was all offered when most of the original users were willing to pay $45,000 for an epic with no upgrade with less specs than what we see now...

Its a good time to be an earlier adopter of red and i think when looked at from that perspective, the communication to red on this should probably reflect that respect which was shown to us, in the fact that an upgrade path so generous was offered at all.

So maybe if you express your ideas from that angle in mind then it won't be so perceived as ungrateful, as it looks like many people have perceived you.

I'm sure as this evolves things will only get better as it always has in red land. I really believe this journey has been so great because of the relationship between red and the customers. Like all relationships its a two way process in which mutual respect must be up-kept or it just wont work.

tj williams
12-15-2008, 10:31 PM
1. All the parts will be higher performance and cheaper than red one by the same rule that guides hard drive size/ processor speed/and laptop pricing.

2. All the trade in REDS will be sold in Eastern Africa or India with agreements forbidding import to the western countries or the software will explode.

3. Jim will change the X deal to include all the brains because it just makes sense that he does not want to discourage us from spending more and Jim seems very sensible to me.

4. Dave makes wonderful math models and reminds me of why I had trouble with economics in college.

5. The performance characteristics of the EPIC and SCARLET will be vastly different and better than the current announcements. Jim's philosophy and technical changes over the development cycle. I'm expecting FF to do a low sensitivity / high sensitivity frame recording to get a dynamic range in excess of 30 stops.

6 What part of our RED Kit will fit on the EPIC?
a. matt box
b. rods
c. baseplate?
d. follow focus
e. after market lens mounts ie Canon FD and Canon EOS?
f. Red Nikon Mount?
g. Top Handle and 100mm brackets?
h. RED1 batts
g. RED 1 CF cards?
h. RED 1 digital mags.
I aftermarket pieces fm various mfgs? ie BNC out Breakout boxes etc???

Andrew Benz
12-15-2008, 11:24 PM
6 What part of our RED Kit will fit on the EPIC?
a. matt box
b. rods
c. baseplate?
d. follow focus
e. after market lens mounts ie Canon FD and Canon EOS?
f. Red Nikon Mount?
g. Top Handle and 100mm brackets?
h. RED1 batts
g. RED 1 CF cards?
h. RED 1 digital mags.
I aftermarket pieces fm various mfgs? ie BNC out Breakout boxes etc???

T.J. this might alleviate this portion of your concerns or provide you with some consternation on some of your AKS.:)

From Jon Sagud's "EPIC Upgrade FAQs"

"What accessories are compatible between RED ONE and EPIC?
All RED EVFs, RED LCDs, RED Brick batteries and RED Chargers, PL mount lenses and external RED RAID and RED Flash Drives are compatible between the current and future systems. Exceptions would include the RED ONE CF Module, bottom mounting hardware (dovetail/bottom plate), RED Top Mounts or any component specific to the shape of the RED ONE. Anything connecting via signal or power path is fully compatible."
__________________
Big Jon

Source thread:
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=343844&postcount=1

Hope this helps you...

Benz

tj williams
12-17-2008, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the clarification so going to Epic:
The following aks I have bought are junk?

1. RED base production pack $1250
2. RED shoulder dovetail 500
3. RED Cheese Plate 350
4. RED Handle 250
5. RED top handle 150
6. RED top handle extension 175
7. RED Universal mounts (4) 500
8. RED Top mounts (2) 500
9. RED wingnut bolt set 109
10 RED focus hook 45

RED AKS Total not usable $3829

Aftermarket:

1. Canon FD Lens Mount Adapter $600
2. Canon EOS lens mount Adapter 1600
3. Element Technica EVF Mount 1190*
4. Element Technica Breakout box 580

Aftermarket Total not usable: $3970

*I expect this to be made usable but so far dont see how it mounts to the Epic on upper rods full length just on the bottom rods pretty awkward.

So I have purchased $7799 worth of accessories for my RED1 believing that it would not become obsolete.

When I upgrade to the RED Epic SSX I will pay 10,500 difference because of the generous trade in, and special package offered.

I will lose about $7799 in accessory purchases. I will probably pay another 7000 for new accessories to fit my Epic. So my total upgrade cost to the special package will be

$10,500 upgrade difference
$7799 accessories I can no longer use
7000 new Epic accessories

$25,299 in upgrade costs for my Epic S35X

Note: This number will probably change downward as I anticipate aftermarket lens mount suppliers selling adapters to take my RED 1 lens mounts in EOS and FD to Epic/Scarlet and additional aftermarket suppliers selling adapters to some of the mechanical accessories. This number could also go upward as I may need special mounting for my existing RED1 digital mags and AB Style batts.

My question is why can't the Epic or Scarlet bodies be close enough in base size screw offsets from the lens mount etc. to use my current mechanical accessories given that the company is committed to making obsolesence obsolete? This would save me 14K+ in mechanical accessories!

Justin O'Neill
12-17-2008, 10:24 AM
Jim and Jarred have stated clearly that the only accessories that will not work with Scarlet and EPIC are the top mount and CF module. Everything else is compatible.

Mathias Erichsen
12-17-2008, 05:36 PM
I hope the needed accessories will be way under 10K! If so I can`t see anyone buying the interchangeable Scarlet at 2,5K + 10K = 12,5K over the 3,75K fixed one...

Rick Darge
12-17-2008, 07:19 PM
Just wondering, if you bought a base prod. pack, why are you adding the dovetail? You don't need to throw away that entire base prod. pack either. You can still use the Red drive cradle/battery setup, the rods, the handle, and the included universal mount. The only thing you're throwing away is the cradle and dovetail. Both of which could be easily sold for some money when the time comes. People will still use the Red One for years. I don't see the used market for Red AKS dropping to a zero return. This isn't RAM we're talking about. I am pretty sure that you will still be able to use the following on an Epic system,

Red Handle (this can attatch to the 19mm rods. Judging by the renders, it looks like you'll be able to use the entire Red handle mount set that we currently have for the Red One)
Red Top Handle
Top Handle Extension
4 Universal Mounts (Epic will allow for 15 and 19 configs just like we have now, no need to throw these away)
Red Wingnut Bolt Set
Element Technica EVF mount (I fully expect this to work with Epic in some way, if it doesn't work right away, believe me, ET will find a solution, this is not something you will lose money on)

So, I just saved you roughly $2,300.

Thanks for the clarification so going to Epic:
The following aks I have bought are junk?

1. RED base production pack $1250
2. RED shoulder dovetail 500
3. RED Cheese Plate 350
4. RED Handle 250
5. RED top handle 150
6. RED top handle extension 175
7. RED Universal mounts (4) 500
8. RED Top mounts (2) 500
9. RED wingnut bolt set 109
10 RED focus hook 45

RED AKS Total not usable $3829

Aftermarket:

1. Canon FD Lens Mount Adapter $600
2. Canon EOS lens mount Adapter 1600
3. Element Technica EVF Mount 1190*
4. Element Technica Breakout box 580

Aftermarket Total not usable: $3970

*I expect this to be made usable but so far dont see how it mounts to the Epic on upper rods full length just on the bottom rods pretty awkward.

So I have purchased $7799 worth of accessories for my RED1 believing that it would not become obsolete.

When I upgrade to the RED Epic SSX I will pay 10,500 difference because of the generous trade in, and special package offered.

I will lose about $7799 in accessory purchases. I will probably pay another 7000 for new accessories to fit my Epic. So my total upgrade cost to the special package will be

$10,500 upgrade difference
$7799 accessories I can no longer use
7000 new Epic accessories

$25,299 in upgrade costs for my Epic S35X

Note: This number will probably change downward as I anticipate aftermarket lens mount suppliers selling adapters to take my RED 1 lens mounts in EOS and FD to Epic/Scarlet and additional aftermarket suppliers selling adapters to some of the mechanical accessories. This number could also go upward as I may need special mounting for my existing RED1 digital mags and AB Style batts.

My question is why can't the Epic or Scarlet bodies be close enough in base size screw offsets from the lens mount etc. to use my current mechanical accessories given that the company is committed to making obsolesence obsolete? This would save me 14K+ in mechanical accessories!

tj williams
12-17-2008, 10:21 PM
Justin my search didn't find those statements.... trying to search RED site!!!!
Where are they? The renders look like a lot of my stuff wouldn't fit esp. the after market lens adapters to Canon....
TJ

Rikchard
Yea right athe dovedail is part of basic pak, mine didnt fit and was replaced but didnt pay for it additionally.... my mistake.
TJ

david farland
12-18-2008, 03:41 AM
....Exceptions would include the RED ONE CF Module, bottom mounting hardware (dovetail/bottom plate), RED Top Mounts or any component specific to the shape of the RED ONE.

Okay..all the Red handles probably are okay.
Not sure about the side handles or cheese plate...hope so!!
Red dovetail can be easily milled to fit Arri/ET plates.


1. CF card goes, okay....$500
2. Base production pack is worth $2600 and I can't use $850 of it so call that even.
3. other top mount is obsolete........ $250
4. Focus hook......$45

total = $895


So correct me if I'm wrong (why don't I have to say that...!!) but so far it's only $895 plus canon stuff

I didn't buy canon/nikon mounts....but I'm sorry for you as you did and they don't fit.

I'd imagine the ET will come up with another EVF mount bracket to screw onto the Epic/Scarlet. Ronford just have.

I suspect Jim will keep the incompatibility down to a minimum but will come up with better shiny newer components which we'll want.

lenses mounts are an interesting one thou!

D

Sanjin Jukic
12-18-2008, 04:10 AM
Pay 4800 USD and you'll get Mysterium-X in your R1 and keep all your accessories.

Upgraded R1 with S35MX should be a better camera than any Scarlet and even can compete with Epic (it's cheaper).

It is because that nobody knows how will Scarlet and Epic designs perform.

THINK SODERBERGH (or think like a Soderbergh).

As Jim quotes Soderbergh: "We have what we have and that is plenty enough (for today)

to do something meaningful. If you give me more, I'll do more. But I have enough now."

Try to think how your R1 can be better for you even after upgrade.

Don't think about that the new toys can be better.

One more thing:

Even RED Laboratory is testing Mysterium-X on "upgraded" Frankie.

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1229523338.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1229569555.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1229568860.jpg

What about Scarlet or Epic?

Who cares about it today?

Give us a Mysterium-X in R1 tomorrow and we can see how it works.

When Scarlet and Epic design improve then I jumping in it too.

Till then I would be very satisfied with upgraded R1 to MX S35 sensor.

david farland
12-18-2008, 04:20 AM
Well spotted about the proto body reuse,sanjin
it's just a mount for lens/sensor, ay.

The main point back there is what kit will be redundant once you move away from R1.
D
ps: listening to the drummer boy again

tj williams
12-18-2008, 05:30 PM
Sanjin great interesting pictures.

Looking at epic/scarlet renders and can't see why they could not be built with an intermediate plate to allow use of current aftermarket lens mounts. that for me would go a long way to making obsolesence obsolete

TJ

david farland
12-20-2008, 01:08 AM
Top mount from RED ONE base plate wont fit from RED ONE. Thats about it.

Bottom Plate and shoulder mount can work in combination with the cheese plate, all the handles, all the 19mm accessories. Even the Battery plate and Batteries from RED ONE will work on Scarlet/Epic. Even the side handles from RED ONE will work.. they actually fit on this configuration above perfectly.

Sadly, your gonna hafta part with your MiniDIN-BNC cables though.. you wont need those going forward, I hope not too many people will be upset about that one.

I'm guessing you attach the top handles to the old universal mounts unless they're developed a new kind of low profile universal mount. Either way I expect they'll have two anchor points and not one like on the BlackSpin.mov render.

D

tj williams
12-20-2008, 07:41 PM
David thanks for digging that out. That is good news going fwd.

I'm hoping the RED designers also take cognizance of the after market mounts for FD which they will probably not support, and for which Kevin has made a very nice mount adapter, and all the Birger work on developing cine/ style focus on EOS lenses. Perhaps some kind of intermediate plate to allow us to continue to use these!!
also hoping the power input Lemo is the same as i have several power input options and I hear quite a few people have wired up lunchbox batt power cables also. Wishing they would say more to rreassure those of us who have invested pretty heavily in RED ! aks!!!

Jarred Land
12-20-2008, 09:11 PM
I'm guessing you attach the top handles to the old universal mounts unless they're developed a new kind of low profile universal mount. Either way I expect they'll have two anchor points and not one like on the BlackSpin.mov render.

D

The top handles use the RED bolt pattern... something that will carry along to the new cameras / accessories.

I know it is tempting to start basing decisions off of the renders.. but don't. You guys have read only half the pages in the book.

I guess we can't say this too many times.. All Specifications are subject to Change. Count on it, and you won't be disappointed.

Steve Sherrick
12-20-2008, 11:44 PM
I guess we can't say this too many times.. All Specifications are subject to Change. Count on it, and you won't be disappointed.

Which is why I'm content shooting R1 right now and letting the chips fall where they may in a few months. Until there are locked in specs, upgrade paths, and dollar figures attached, it's merely a fun conversation. Or in this case, a math equation that had my head spinning from the first post. :biggrin:

Andrew Walker
12-21-2008, 01:31 AM
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1229569555.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1229568860.jpg

I really like these pics. It reminds me just how far the RED One has come.