Another fear...

[Brook Willard]

[thread split]

I guess the more that I think about it, the more that I realize that the S35 models are kind of... out of place. Here's my reasoning.

The RED ONE can do 4K@30p, 3K@60p and 2K@120p.

The S35 Scarlet can do 4K [which is the S35mm area] at 30p and 2K@72p. It also has the 5K@72p burst mode for the occasional high-speed shot. It has more dynamic range than a stock RED ONE and a larger sensor [so you can shoot real super 35mm instead of Academy]. It can record REDCODE 80, which one can only guess is about twice as good as RC36. It has timelapse functionality, but probably not ramping [a rarely used feature]. It is smaller, lighter and more configurable than the RED ONE. It has HD-SDI out [likely superior to the RED ONE's] as well as timecode and audio support with the appropriate module. You can choose custom recording areas, but it can't desqueeze anamorphic [something that the RED ONE didn't do for a year and we all got used to]. Since its sensor is bigger, it is closer to four-perf anyways... so it's actually superior for anamorphic shooting. It also ships first.

So to me, the S35 Scarlet is the RED ONE replacement. Sure you lose a few features... but you gain a few as well. Since the features you lose aren't used by 80% of productions anyway, the S35 Scarlet has that market cornered.

Ignoring discounts, we're talking about a $7,000 camera here.

So that essentially turns the S35 Epic at $28,000 into a high-speed camera. Yes it has a few extra features and a higher quality recording mode... but these aren't features that get used on every shoot and the RC80 mode available on the Scarlet is already better than the RED ONE. That lowered compression will probably result in a 1/3-1/2 stop of dynamic range in the shadows.

I honestly think that many shoots aren't going to bother renting an Epic for 400% more money because of a few features. The Scarlet is going to kill the S35 Epic.

When the Monstro cameras start to ship, the same problem will happen with the FF35 models. I know that frame rates and features cost money and I'm personally willing to pay for it. But the shoots that don't need high frame rates and the shoots that are willing to deal with the Scarlet's shortcomings [which are in many cases better than the shortcomings of the RED ONE that they'll have been dealing with for a year and a half] won't bother to rent the Epic.

So now you have a $10,000 camera eating a $33,000 camera's lunch. That was really awesome when the RED ONE came along and ate all of Sony's and Panasonic's lunch... but now it's cannibalism to me.

If somebody outfits a Scarlet package in a professional manner, they will be poised to take 80% of the jobs from Epic owners.

I'm not talking about the guy with a Scarlet, a tiny tripod and a Red Rock matte box. I'm talking about the kind of person who slots a Scarlet body into a nice Arri/O'Connor/Ronford/Element Technica/Anton Bauer/all-the-trimmings camera package.

Now anybody thinking about buying these cameras should already have a built-in client base. Those clients will always rent from you because you're you. That's no problem. The camera will eventually earn itself into the green and everybody will be happy. I'm not trying to doom & gloom that Epic owners are going to sit around staring at their unrented camera.


So looking at my original question, I get that a 645 package is going to rent for the same as an Epic FF35 package... except on those jobs that need the 6 x 4.5 sensor. That's cool.

But I really think that Epic owners will find themselves losing a lot of jobs to the soccer mom camera.

Now there's one solution: buy a Scarlet and a 645. Seems like a great deal. The Scarlet is only $7,000, it'll pay for itself in no time.

But the FF35 is only $3,000 more. Oh, but it comes out later! So I'll start with the S35 Scarlet so I can be the first guy on the block to have one of the new cameras. When the FF35 ships, I'll pick one of those up as well. That way I can serve all of my potential clients. I'll just work those cameras until the 645 ships and then I'll buy that... because that's the one I really want.

Now I'm a rental house.

So the solution is to buy the cameras and sell them when the new hotness comes out. Buy an S35 Scarlet, ROI it, sell it and buy an FF35 Scarlet, ROI it, keep it around when you pick up the 645 and be set up to serve all clients properly.

That's the solution. And there is a solution for camera owners. Once again, I'm not trying to proclaim this as the end of the world.

There will always be the productions that demand the best and only the best. When you show up with a Scarlet, they'll say "get that thing out of here and get me the real camera." That's fine, there will always be those productions.

I'm also not saying that RED should change their lineup and I'm not trying to get them to cripple Scarlet.

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.

The perfect world for rentals would be if all Scarlet models had the Mysterium-X and all Epic models had the Monstro. Then you'd have an undeniable benefit to the Epic line that everybody would want. Sure the Scarlets would have higher resolution [5.4µm vs. 6.0µm pixels], but the Epics would have an extra 2+ stops of dynamic range! Now that's the way to do it. That way everybody wins. That way there's a clear separation between the product lines.

I dunno. I'm just about out of ideas. That's my film-industry-apocalypse-stream-of-consciousness rant that'll probably get me in trouble. :)

[Zach Nelson]

I guess the more that I think about it, the more that I realize that the S35 models are kind of... out of place.

I don't really understand the S35 models either. I think it would be smart if they were abandoned in favor of focusing more time, energy and resources on the FF35 brains.

[Gunleik Groven]

Hey Brook.

There's a long time before all this happens.
What would seem logical to me, was that all the Scarlets were Mysterium-X, and all the Epics Monstro. Let the Scarlet top off @ S35 and the Epic start @ FF35.

For many RED owners I think an S35 or FF/Monstro combo would be the way to go. Substantially increased DR is the number one issue...

The way to get a S35/Monstro (like things are projected now) is actually to upgrade the R1 an NOT buy Scarlet/Epic.

That's kinda odd.

All predictions and specs are about to change on short notice, we all know that, and you have put your finger on an interesting dillemma...

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i think you are right in almost every point.
but one thing i see different.

selling a used 7k usd cam will bring you how much?
4000 USD?
4500 USD?
3000 USD?

who will pay that when the new kid is around...
and the person who will buy that will have no one year garantuee...has to pay additional 500 usd for transfer (guess this will die too)

lets say somebody wants to buy a camera...he need to buy the modules etc. too...this can add to lets say 5-9 k usd depending on the needs....then you are there and can think about buying a used brain or just add a new brain.

i mean if someone drops 10-14 k usd into camera+support....the 2-3k usd more to pay are reasonable to get a new brain.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Hey Brook.

There's a long time before all this happens.
What would seem logical to me, was that all the Scarlets were Mysterium-X, and all the Epics Monstro. For many RED owners I think an S35/Monstro combo would be the way to go. The way to get such a camera (like things are projected now) is actually to upgrade the R1 an NOT buy Scarlet/Epic.

That's kinda odd.

All predictions and specs are about to change on short notice, we all know that, and you have put your finger on an interesting dillemma...



yes......scarlet get the X and epic the Monstro.
this would seperate the two lines....and the red one owners can still upgrade their sensor to monstro....

then there would be a clear hirarchy (is this the right word?).

(Am i stupid?---i am very happy to get scarlet ff35 for 10k usd...i am right now not so interested in epic businesswise....but i nerver was a businessman...hehe)

but i dont LIKE THE IDEA OF CRIPPLING THE CHEAPER ONE.

[Gunleik Groven]

but i dont LIKE THE IDEA OF CRIPPLING THE CHEAPER ONE.

( i am stupid?---i am very happy to get scarlet ff35 for 10k usd...i am right now not so interested in epic businesswise)

Nor does Jim, or I really.

The best path for me, right now, is to keep the R1 and upgrade it when the Monstro upgrade comes, AND buy a Scarlet FF/Monstro, when that arrives...

The oddity is really the Epic/Mysterium combo

[Cüneyt Kaya]

The oddity is really the Epic/Mysterium combo

thats a point i try to figure out since day one.
ok it would be something different if the monstro would be 2 years away.
But hey...the monstro should be ready six months later.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I share everything you say... in fact you have put it in much better words that I could have.
We will have to wait and see how RED avoids killing their own products by specifying the specs on each brain. I join your rant... hopefully we will be surprised with some new announcement that would give the R1 owners a lead, and the scarlet a niche of its own.

Best,

[Mark Pugh]

So now you have a $10,000 camera eating a $33,000 camera's lunch.

Brook you don't seem to be factoring the $17,500 credit as a factor in the purchase. The price difference you stated above is indeed a factor for those coming in with a late purchase of the Red One, and can't get a return on that investment, and those paying the full price with no credit.

[Jaime Vallés]

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.
Agreed. Scarlet S35 is perfect for professional Hollywood digital cinema (with the proper accessories, and the right operator, of course.)

5K resolution
S35 sensor
24p
72fps burst
lightweight
PL mount

The fact that the price is cheap doesn't make it a "Soccer Mom" camera... It just means one can purchase two and keep one as a backup. People need to stop thinking of the Scarlet line as a toy and instead consider it a camera line with fewer features than Epic.

EDIT - Also, I personally don't want to pay the extra $$$ for the FF Scarlet. I don't want to shoot anamorphic. S35 in 5K is plenty for me, and for much of big budget Hollywood.

And the added dynamic range of Monstro sounds great, but I don't want to wait for those to come out when I can be shooting Scarlet S35 this coming Summer.

[Brook Willard]

On the other hand.. there is something I dont understand maybe its a good thread to post: Are the film lenses capable of producing the FF35 image required for the Monstro sensor? Because as far as I knew the biggest image the lenses can produce is up to S35. FF35 is for still lenses, not motion picture. But I could be wrong.. Hopefully am wrong..

The FF35's benefit is that it has a Monstro sensor and that the sensor is large enough to do 4-perf shooting.

Not many shooters will use the full sensor. That's more for specialty projects or people who want to use the camera for stills.

It is best to not think of it as a FF35 camera for this discussion... just think of it as a 4-perf super 35mm motion picture camera with more dynamic range.


Brook you don't seem to be factoring the $17,500 credit as a factor in the purchase. The price difference you stated above is indeed a factor for those coming in with a late purchase of the Red One, and can't get a return on that investment, and those paying the full price with no credit.

You're right, I specifically chose not to talk about the discount. It's still $17,500 that was paid once upon a time. Yes, it came with a free camera for a while... but since not everybody owns a camera and different people will choose to use their discount in different ways, I chose to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

[Mark Pugh]

but since not everybody owns a camera and different people will choose to use their discount in different ways, I chose to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

You're talking numbers and investments, so it's relevant for a lot of people here who own cameras.
Your discussion does raise the issue of the real value of a Red One, if Scarlets are going to be a better investment for people entering the market. But that's another discussion.
I agree about the FF35 Epic. A lot of people are saying that's the epic they want. Seems like a more worthwhile investment than the S35 (in Epic and Scarlet, I think).

[Brook Willard]

You're talking numbers and investments, so it's relevant for a lot of people here who own cameras.
Your discussion does raise the issue of the real value of a Red One, if Scarlets are going to be a better investment for people entering the market. But that's another discussion.
I agree about the FF35 Epic. A lot of people are saying that's the epic they want. Seems like a more worthwhile investment than the S35 (in Epic and Scarlet, I think).

The fact that the cameras cost different amounts, the fact that there is a discount that eases that pain, etc... that's all fine. The reason I didn't talk about the discount isn't because I feel that the discount isn't a major point... it's just that the discount holds no relevance to the point I was making.

The fact that the FF35 is more desirable than the S35... it's a given and not necessarily a huge point.

My point is that the Scarlet will cannibalize the Epic market to the point that the Epic is simply a high-speed camera with a few extra features. To quote my previous post:

If somebody outfits a Scarlet package in a professional manner, they will be poised to take 80% of the jobs from Epic owners.

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.

[Chris Kenny]

The perfect world for rentals would be if all Scarlet models had the Mysterium-X and all Epic models had the Monstro. Then you'd have an undeniable benefit to the Epic line that everybody would want. Sure the Scarlets would have higher resolution [5.4µm vs. 6.0µm pixels], but the Epics would have an extra 2+ stops of dynamic range! Now that's the way to do it. That way everybody wins. That way there's a clear separation between the product lines.

Just swap everything around. The current Scarlet S35 becomes "Scarlet Standard", while the Epic S35 becomes "Scarlet High Speed". Meanwhile, the FF35 Scarlet becomes "Epic Standard" while the FF35 Epic becomes "Epic High Speed".

The only problem is, I bet, that this doesn't reflect the real material costs of the various cameras. That is, while it might make more sense from a marketing perspective for the S35 Epic to be the $10K camera and the FF35 Scarlet to be the $28K camera, I suspect it's basically impossible. Most companies would probably deal with this by creating artificial pricing tiers. For instance, one simple solution would be to just get rid of the FF35 Scarlet and the S35 Epic. Then there's a *really* clear difference. The problem is, if this (http://www.indie4k.com/archives/99) post is correct, this would result in a lot of Monstro chips just being discarded because they couldn't operate at high enough frame rates. I think we'd all rather prefer the current plan to put those chips into a cheaper camera instead.

Red is building the cameras that the technology makes possible, rather shoehorning the technology into pre-existing market segments designed to maximize profits. Isn't that what we like about Red?

If the higher frame rates and other additional features of the Epic S35 (and X) aren't worth an extra $18K and giving up the extra 2 stops and larger sensor of the Scarlet FF35... then don't buy an S35 Epic. Buy a Scarlet FF35. The only people this poses a problem for are existing Red One owners, who get a great deal upgrading to the Epic X, but not to the Scarlet. So, the simplest solution is for Red to come up with some sort of direct upgrade path from the Red One to the FF35 Scarlet.

Exactly what sort of upgrade offer might be reasonable is hard to determine without knowing how much the accessories cost. In fact, it's impossible to determine without knowing what Red's profit margins are on various items. But I bet some sort of an upgrade path would make a lot of people very, very happy.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

The fact that the cameras cost different amounts, the fact that there is a discount that eases that pain, etc... that's all fine. The reason I didn't talk about the discount isn't because I feel that the discount isn't a major point... it's just that the discount holds no relevance to the point I was making.

The fact that the FF35 is more desirable than the S35... it's a given and not necessarily a huge point.

My point is that the Scarlet will cannibalize the Epic market to the point that the Epic is simply a high-speed camera with a few extra features. To quote my previous post:

If somebody outfits a Scarlet package in a professional manner, they will be poised to take 80% of the jobs from Epic owners.

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.

I think scarlet will also eat the R1 market aswell. Because there wont be much stuff you cant shoot with the scarlet that you could with the R1. If only there was a Monstro S35.

[Mark Pugh]

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties...[/i]

You're absolutely right. It's up to the potential camera owner to decide if they can hire an Epic on enough shoots that need higher frame rates to pay back the investment.

[Stephen Pruitt]

I hope RED is reading all of this good market research. Here's what we know:

1. Everyone wants the Monstro chip for its higher dynamic range.

2. A lot of people want to continue to use S35 cine glass.

3. Only some people will find regular use for very high speed cameras.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that the one camera RED didn't introduce is the one that would garner the vast majority of their future sales: An Epic (or even a Scarlet) with a S35 Monstro chip. Make that camera, price it as the RED One reward, and Jim would have the slam dunk winner of the decade. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I'd buy two right now and have no doubts I was getting the camera I really need/want.

I mean, come on. Jim has already said that the RED One will be getting a Monstro upgrade down the line. If RED can find a way to stuff a Monstro into the RED One, then surely they can find a way to make a Monstro in S35 (which is a larger chip than the RED One's Academy S35).

I'm really surprised that they have drawn this line (no S35 Monstro) in the sand. It just doesn't make any sense and leaves a very large hole in the market for some other company to exploit.

Stephen

[Leo Ticheli]

What we are facing is brand dilution.

I believe models within a brand should not cross. No Epic should make a lesser quality picture than Scarlet. Scarlet should stand for something. One thing. Epic should stand for another. I think this is basic stuff.

Today, most producers and clients know what a Red camera is. It's an easy, uncomplicated sell, except of course for the mostly unwarranted post rap. Red means something; something spectacular. And it's easy to understand. Red. Period.

Imagine the playing field when the plethora of Red camera models is on the street, a dizzying array of imager sizes and accessories.

Will the "Red" brand be enhanced by thousands of fixed-lens Scarlets proclaiming themselves to be "Reds?"

Will we enjoy trying to explain to producers, a group not lauded for technical expertise, that our Epic is better than a Scarlet? What if it isn't??? The cool color scheme of the Epic X may not look so hot when a 10K Scarlet is beating it like a rented mule.

Of course this is surmise; I would expect a 13 stop DR Monstro to beat the hell out of a Mysterium X, but I've seen pictures from neither. There could be other factors.

Look, it's not all doom and gloom. I've got a wonderful camera and I'll have a wonderful Red camera next year, maybe two Red cameras. Maybe an Epic X and a FF35 Scarlet. Maybe just a FF35 Epic.

I'll enjoy making beautiful pictures with Red; I don't think I'll enjoy trying to explain it all to my clients.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Steve Gal]

They should make camera builds that disable features according to the features the customer needs. Then when they try to put the camera into that mode, a screen comes on and asks for their credit card info and will wirelessly authorize the card and it will charge them to use those features. Just a fun thought.

[Mark Pugh]

What we are facing is brand dilution.


I'll enjoy making beautiful pictures with Red; I don't think I'll enjoy trying to explain it all to my clients.


Even trickier when a future generation of Scarlet comes out with better sensor specs than your FF35 Epic.

[Tom Lowe]

The fact that the cameras cost different amounts, the fact that there is a discount that eases that pain, etc... that's all fine. The reason I didn't talk about the discount isn't because I feel that the discount isn't a major point... it's just that the discount holds no relevance to the point I was making.

The fact that the FF35 is more desirable than the S35... it's a given and not necessarily a huge point.

My point is that the Scarlet will cannibalize the Epic market to the point that the Epic is simply a high-speed camera with a few extra features. To quote my previous post:

If somebody outfits a Scarlet package in a professional manner, they will be poised to take 80% of the jobs from Epic owners.

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.

Brook, be careful. I hope that posts like this are not responsible for the 3K@60fps option being REMOVED from Scarlet FF35. :bye2:

I understand the need to balance an investment with a business model, but let's be careful not to hamstring Jim's ability to produce the best camera for the best price. If FF35 Scarlet eats up Epic business, so be it. We can all adjust our planning accordingly.

[Brook Willard]

After some requests and with the desire to separate the points, I've moved the cannibalism discussion here.

[Mark Pugh]

They should make camera builds that disable features according to the features the customer needs.

Or just a daily shot log that including data of frame size and frame rates.
You could then charge accordingly.
It may be the only way an Epic hirer can compete with Scarlet for lots of shoots.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Brook, be careful. I hope that posts like this are not responsible for the 3K@60fps option being REMOVED from Scarlet FF35. :bye2:

I understand the need to balance an investment with a business model, but let's be careful not to hamstring Jim's ability to produce the best camera for the best price. If FF35 Scarlet eats up Epic business, so be it. We can all adjust our planning accordingly.

Specs like 3K@60fps are the ones that downgrade the R1. Thats what the R1 can do right now for $10K more. My believe is that Scarlet shouldnt eat Epic business, because if it does its also taking R1's business and there would be no point in getting neither unless you want higher fps. Plus your R1 investment places where exactly? If for 10K less you can get a new R1 called Scarlet (until we know all specs from scarlet this is my guess ... although Jim has stated that there will be circumstantial differences in terms of capabilities between both) The missing part is the Monstro sensor for S35 in the Epic upgrade; which wont come sooner than the Mysterium X because of the development process.
Finally, if we have to adjust our planning accordingly my ideal upgrade path would be trade in your R1 for 2 scarlets :)

[Mark Pugh]

Brook, be careful. I hope that posts like this are not responsible for the 3K@60fps option being REMOVED from Scarlet FF35. :bye2:

I understand the need to balance an investment with a business model, but let's be careful not to hamstring Jim's ability to produce the best camera for the best price. If FF35 Scarlet eats up Epic business, so be it. We can all adjust our planning accordingly.

I think Brook is saying that Red should indeed consider separating the models more, so removal of 3k@60fps would be welcome in that context.

I guess that if Epic's business is crippled by scarlet, Red won't be making as many Epics, and the Epic will therefore be more expensive to produce, Jim's ability to produce an EPIC at a given price-point will be reduced.
Tom you're speaking in defense of the Scarlet you want to buy, Brook and I speak in defense of the Epics we want to buy... the s*&^fight starts here, before a single job or producer walks in!!

[Tom Lowe]

I think Brook is saying that Red should indeed consider separating the models more, so removal of 3k@60fps would be welcome in that context.

I guess that if Epic's business is crippled by scarlet, Red won't be making as many Epics, and the Epic will therefore be more expensive to produce, Jim's ability to produce an EPIC at a given price-point will be reduced.
Tom you're speaking in defense of the Scarlet you want to buy, Brook and I speak in defense of the Epics we want to buy... the s*&^fight starts here, before a single job or producer walks in!!

I am speaking in defense of Jim being able to put out the best camera for the best price, period. The market will decide what is valuable and what is not. If FF35 Scarlet competes with Epic, then make a business decision and buy FF35 Scarlet. What some people seem to be arguing in favor of is asking Jim to HOLD BACK technology from certain cameras... which is what companies like Sony and Canon have been doing for decades.


Specs like 3K@60fps are the ones that downgrade the R1.

So you want Jim to hold back that technology?

[Rick Darge]

I like the idea of figuring out some upgrade option for R1 owners that want to step down to a Scarlet, other than a 12% trade in. Brook, I hear your fears. It will be a while though before we see the goods. in the meantime, I will continue to profit from my R1

[Tom Lowe]

I think some kind of "upgrade" path to buying a FF or S35 Scarlet with all the bells and whistles might make sense. As long as the purchase is in the 20-40K range. I have no issue with people requesting that. But trying to cripple new cameras is not the way to go, IMO.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I am speaking in defense of Jim being able to put out the best camera for the best price, period.

So you want Jim to hold back that technology?

Certainly not, but I feel you are missing the point.
First of all Jim has already being able to put out a gorgeous camera at an unbeatable price.
But, what we are talking about here is the investment we've made towards the R1 and how in a year that investment will have to make a choice. If you do not have an R1 now its easy, you have a lot of options. If you DO have an R1 right now, you are scratching your head saying what the heck am I supposed to do now. The options Jim has shared are fantastic, who else would buy my R1 at the same price that I bought it?? I mean, we are not dumb... its just that there are a lot of questions that remain unanswered in terms of what should we choose when the time comes. And we fear that choice because the upgrade path seems confusing and if like pieces dont fit.

[Tom Lowe]

Bottom line: are you asking Jim to cripple new cameras or not?

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I think I have already answered that question.

[Mark Pugh]

Bottom line: are you asking Jim to cripple new cameras or not?

Tom no-one's asking Jim to cripple cameras. I was just saying that less Epics are sold, then by the laws of mass-production, they'll be at a higher price to produce, therefore they probably won't be as good value for their given price.
That's before the Scarlet reduces the Epics's rental value and resale value.
So the Scarlet cripples the Epic. Get it?

[Justin O'Neill]

I'm really surprised that they have drawn this line (no S35 Monstro) in the sand. It just doesn't make any sense and leaves a very large hole in the market for some other company to exploit.

Stephen

Stephen, the way I see it the S35 Monstro DOES exist...and for only $9,750!

It is called the FF35 Scarlet. If you put S35 lenses on this brain aren't you in fact getting the same benefits of a S35 Monstro sensor??

To me the FF35 Scarlet is just an S35 Monstro with a little extra sensor there if you want to shoot FF stills.

Am I missing something?

[Tom Lowe]

Tom no-one's asking Jim to cripple cameras. I was just saying that less Epics are sold, then by the laws of mass-production, they'll be at a higher price to produce, therefore they probably won't be as good value for their given price.
That's before the Scarlet reduces the Epics's rental value and resale value.
So the Scarlet cripples the Epic. Get it?

That's the market at work.

[Matt Uhry]

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.



Have some faith, there are the same lack of truly compelling reasons to rent an Arricam ST instead of a BL4 - they both are quiet enough and make great images in the right hands. Producers spending $120,000 a day are not going to get shy about the last $800 bucks to get a camera with all possible capabilities.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Brook Willard]

Here's the way I see it.

Right now, the product lines conflict. Scarlet has grown too big for its britches and will dominate Epic's market.

I'm going to guess that the reason we're seeing the Mysterium X instead of the Monstro in the S35 models is that RED had been working on that sensor in that size for a while. The 30mm x 15mm sensor size is unusual, but it was likely the result of the sensor's pixel density. They knew they needed 5K to make the camera justifiable... and the larger sensor would finally let a RED camera shoot super 35mm.

So they worked on the S35 and 2/3" Mysterium X sensors. Then the big shakeup happened. Whether the result of threads like Tom's and my own, heat from others in the industry, pressure from Canon and Nikon or RED's own ingenuity, they decided to redesign everything.

So the S35 MX sensor [which was likely the original Epic sensor] got dropped into the products that needed it and new sensors were made to fill in the gaps.

Whether or not I'm even remotely correct, the sensor distribution feels downright reactionary. There isn't a clear distribution of sensors or features between the product lines.

If the opportunity to redesign the product line were mine, this is how I would do it:

All Scarlet models would have the Mysterium X sensor. All Epic models would have the Monstro sensor. That's easy enough. It creates a very distinct break between the models. The best Scarlet with all of the trimmings will always be worse than the lowest-end Epic. That's the very nature of having "mid-range" and "high-end" product lines.

Now this might mean designing an S35 Monstro or it might not simply call for an elimination of the S35 Epic altogether. This is how:

Initial Rollout

Scarlet 2/3" models ship
RED ONE Mysterium X upgrade is made available
Scarlet S35 of current specification ships if/when ready


The RED ONE MX upgrade would either be a sensor of the RED ONE's current size or - more likely - the same 30mm x 15mm wafer cut for the S35 Scarlet. If possible, the RED ONE's frame rates would be beefed up.

This keeps the RED ONE in its current position as the "best" camera. It has the new MX sensor, potentially higher frame rates and the same features we know and love.

The Scarlet models would have the same frame rates that are currently specced. There is now a distinct "high-end" RED ONE line and "low-end" Scarlet line.

No Epic cameras would ship at this time as the Monstro sensor is not complete yet.

Subsequent Rollout[s]

Epic models ship
Scarlet FF35 Mysterium X ships
RED ONE Monstro upgrade made available at some point


The Epic FF35 Monstro and 645 Monstro models ship. The 617 ships whenever it's ready [I view this as more of a standalone product].

The Epic S35 model either ceases to exist [its spot would eventually be filled by the RED ONE Monstro upgrade] or would be made with the Monstro sensor. It would be a lower resolution - roughly 4.5K - as a result of the different pixel density.

The Scarlet FF35 MX model ships. This camera would either have a slightly smaller sensor [to maintain the same resolution with the smaller pixel size] or would have a slightly higher resolution [for the same reason]. It would have the same specs as the current model. Hell, it might even be cheaper as it wouldn't need a Monstro sensor.

This just cleans up the product line in my eyes. You've got the Scarlet models at the low end, the Epic models at the high end and the RED ONE sticking around as a viable option for those that wish to keep upgrading theirs. The Epic models would also benefit from more development time coupled with the lessons learned from the early Scarlet models.

The only people that don't win here are the guys who want the Scarlet as currently specced because they realize just how much of the industry those cameras are going to eat.

Overall, this just makes a LOT more sense. The product lines stop conflicting, cameras no longer lose jobs to each other and every product has a purpose and slot in the market.

So from the cynical point of view... I suppose I am asking for the Scarlet FF35 model to be crippled. It would have less dynamic range than its current specification. In the grand scheme of things, I'm asking for two changes: the Scarlet FF35 changes to MX and the Epic S35 either goes away or becomes a Monstro. Those two changes would clean up the product line and result in better products a more logical market arrangement.

Thoughts?

[Brook Willard]

Have some faith, there are the same lack of truly compelling reasons to rent an Arricam ST instead of a BL4 - they both are quiet enough and make great images in the right hands. Producers spending $120,000 a day are not going to get shy about the last $800 bucks to get a camera with all possible capabilities.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

That is a good point...

[Zakaree Sandberg]

good points brook.
(second thinking what I need to do)
I dont want to get left in the dust with a more expensive camera and having the less expensive dominate my potential rental.
its a timing thing now.. when do i sell my R1
(when can i get max amount of money for it)
Id hate to decide not to upgrade to epic because of cost.. but then i can only sell my redone for 4-5 grand and then buy a scarlet.. ouch

[Justin O'Neill]

So from the cynical point of view... I suppose I am asking for the Scarlet FF35 model to be crippled. It would have less dynamic range than its current specification. In the grand scheme of things, I'm asking for two changes: the Scarlet FF35 changes to MX and the Epic S35 either goes away or becomes a Monstro. Those two changes would clean up the product line and result in better products a more logical market arrangement.

Thoughts?

It sounds like you are thinking about the RED lineup strictly from a rental perspective and I don't think our ability to rent to cameras is RED's number one priority. Given, if we can make money from the cameras we are more likely to buy more.

Plenty of people will buy a RED to make their own projects without the intention of competing for jobs in the market. A Monstro sensor for $9,750 is an out of this world deal if you want to buy a camera to make a feature film.

If I am producing a project I want the best camera for the least amount of money. Again, the Monstro Scarlet would be the obvious choice.

It may make it harder for EPIC owners to make money off of their cameras but it will allow better images to be made for cheaper. If I had to guess, I think this is RED's goal.

I plan on owning at least 4 EPICs so I understand where you are coming from, but I also plan on having a couple Scarlets for producing pet projects.

[Tom Lowe]

Here's the way I see it.

Right now, the product lines conflict. Scarlet has grown too big for its britches and will dominate Epic's market.

Let Jim worry about that. Order the camera that best suits your needs.

I hope no one is trying to talk Jim into crippling any cameras.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

What if:
*You could trade in your R1 for a Scarlet plus accesories for 17.500? (if specs remain as is, in terms it succeeds the R1 )
*You could trade in your R1 for an EPIC FF35 for the price the sensor upgrade is? (17.500 plus whatever the price the sensor upgrade is)
:)

[Casey Green]

...When you show up with a Scarlet, they'll say "get that thing out of here and get me the real camera." That's fine, there will always be those productions...

I find this statement a bit off base. Any of the RED S35 (5K) and up Cameras will be considered Pro Cinema in my book (and I think throughout most of the industry).

Brook, I think sometimes you have a bit too many "fears". It's still early yet. I'm confident the issues you are concerned with will work themselves out.

:-)

[Craig Ryan]

I don't agree with the notion of making all the Scarlet sensors Mysterium X, and all Epic Monstro. "Real frame rates cost real money". Epic is the answer to frame rates here. The FFScalet will allow lower budget productions who don't need all the bells and whistles of an FFEpic to get just as great of a cinematography tool. It's a base, bottom line version of the sensor. Here we are simply seeing the result of the cost that comes with high FPS at extremely high resolutions (Epic).

The s35 Epic and Epic X do seem kinda out of place right now, what with Scarlet s35mm being estimated to roll out first, and potentially talking a lot of that market. But without the Epic s35, that would leave in a hole for high speed s35. I guess I mostly agree with the idea of calling the Epic models the high speed models, and the Scarlets as the standard. It all makes the most sense.

I agree that for most/all of the big budget RED productions, EPIC will be king obviously. I think those going to invest in an EPIC need to realize that its meant for the big boys, so if you're going to make a living off renting your camera, it might be wise to know who your market is, as Tom said. See what happens, adjust accordingly.

I understand full well from a marketing position why some would like the separations of the lines to be clear cut and dry...but that just sounds like what we've been dealing with forever already. Let RED mix up the market and shake things up...

/end long winded recap of what everyone else said :innocent:

[donatello b]

IMO hollywood type ( as in they service film/high high/med budgets) rental houses are going with EPIC monstro $33k plus, and they have high end lens to supply their current customers...bottom line for them 33k is CHEAP compared to what is now sitting on their shelfs.. they are not going to try to compete in the camera's costing 10k and under rental market ( they might have a few scarlets for crash cams , under water etc) ..

the no/low budgets will be be serviced by owner types ( DP/Dit) or the producer will just buy a scarlet for the project ( whatever is cheaper) - they then have choice to rent low to med $$ lens ...

for non hollywood - well you'll have to decide what your clients will rent ... 4 - 11k camera ?? or do they really need the 33k ?
for high end projects 600-1200 day difference is not going to matter ... low end =it matters ... all budgets between those ?? you'll have to decide (based on your clients)?
perhaps ONE camera is not going to fit ALL your needs ???

for Brook ( specific) i say forget the X scarlet/epic ... go Epic FF monstro .. stay out of the low budgets ... 645 is a option = IMO buy 1 with a few other working DP's and share it for those special shoots when needed...

[mikeburton]

Brook, I would expect to see even more changes in RED's plan until they say, this is it, we are going into production on this. And even then, things will change. I think its great to speculate and discuss the options as they lie right now but I think we all know that its a game time decision that will be made once we know what is actually shipping out the doors, when you will be slated to receive your gear and what those current price/specs will be then.

[Raul Gonzo]

My point is that the Scarlet will cannibalize the Epic market to the point that the Epic is simply a high-speed camera with a few extra features. [/i]

This seems to be what Jim has been stressing about.
He is really trying to get this point across:


Real frame rates ... cost real money.

Jim

And there it is.

[Brook Willard]

I find this statement a bit off base. Any of the RED S35 (5K) and up Cameras will be considered Pro Cinema in my book (and I think throughout most of the industry).

I assure you that's not the way I'm thinking. I just know there are some cranky old guys out there who would let those words past their lips... :)



Brook, I think sometimes you have a bit too many "fears". It's still early yet. I'm confident the issues you are concerned with will work themselves out.

:-)

You know, that's a good point to make. When I make threads like these, I want to make sure people know I'm not just sitting at home in the fetal position, rocking myself as I reload these threads. :) I know the issues aren't that big or bad and I know that may of my suggestions are wild and absurd and unnecessary. I do make the threads for myself, of course, but I largely make them to get the discussion started... to get people thinking about things from a perspective that they may not have had. In turn, once the discussion starts, I get to see things from a perspective that I might not have thought about beforehand.

So fear not - I'm not trying to piss on anybody's parade or say that I know better than all. I just like involving people in my streams of consciousness... because a lot of the time, some really cool things come out of it. :)

[Alexander Nikishin]

What I think we're forgetting here is that RED is a business and Jim is a down right genius business man.

I'm sure that Jim knows that the Scarlet FF35 DSMC is going to be the bread & butter of where RED's revenue comes in from along with the 8X fixed lens Scarlet model.

Next in revenue will be the Epic FF35 with all other models following in as just specialty purchases.

Simply put, if you offer an affordable FF35 Scarlet Monstro at $10,000 it will undoubtedly sell more units and bring in much, much more revenue than a specialty purchase such as the Epic FF or 645.

Perfect example, Ford vs. Ferrari......

RED isn't concerned with the rental market, it makes it's money from sales.

My 2c.

With that being said, me and my 645 are ready for a gunfight that no Scarlet can handle. ;)

[Casey Green]

I assure you that's not the way I'm thinking. I just know there are some cranky old guys out there who would let those words past their lips... :)

...and there always will be. ;-)



So fear not - I'm not trying to piss on anybody's parade or say that I know better than all. I just like involving people in my streams of consciousness... because a lot of the time, some really cool things come out of it. :)

Understood, no worries.

And I agree with others... I'm sure things will change a bit (spec wise) before everything is said and done.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The RED camera private owner/rental market is for the birds as of right now, there are people undercutting each other left & right.

You wouldn't believe how many, will work for free or $500 a day ads/offers I've heard in the past 6 months.

You've really got to establish a strong client basis and have the knowledge/skill to keep your clients, it's always been that way.

[J. Eric Camp]

As unpopular as it seems to be...

If I could go back in time and be involved with the planning of the DSMC cameras I would have pushed for exactly what Brook has suggested.

I would have suggested that the Scarlets, from 2/3" to FF35 would be X sensors. Already a "better" sensor than the Mysterium sensor at RC36 that we are now so familiar with. More DR, less compressed. RED would still be offering an amazing new camera at an amazing price, like they have done from day one.

If Scarlets where X sensors and Epics where Monstros then the line in the sand would be clear and many of us wouldn't look so confused right now. The Ferraris and Fords comment made before would then truly hold water. It is how I would build things.

Many will be happy to know that I was not involved and that Jim clearly thinks differently than I do.

Now, I know that this current discussion, while worth while, is very preemptive. We are debating prototypes which may or may not exist, with out seeing images, final production specs or the "check mate" that Jim has hinted at. So take this all with a grain of salt. THINGS WILL CHANGE, count on it.

Rental houses are not in any real danger as I see it. They will get a ton of modules and an assortment of brains, say 1 or 2 2/3" Scarlets, 1 or 2 S35 Scarlets, 4 FF35 Scarlets, 2 FF35 Epics and 1 645. They will make their money.

Owner operators have much more risk in this. Look, I work on "big boy" stuff. But not everyday. I came off a Majors contract and went on a tier 1. VERY few people only live in "big boy" world. Most of us have to bounce back a forth. These are the people at "risk." I think the final reality is, if you are a twilighter like myself, (a little day, a little night) you get an EPIC. You charge for it when the "big boys" call and you compete with the Scarlets when they don't.

Your R1 was 18k, but you spent lets say.... 35k.

Thats 17k in aks. If a Scarlet is going to compete with an EPIC then it needs the same modules. Lets call new aks 15k. Remember, new bricks, charger, riser, top mounts, shoulder rig, media, i/o, mote etc. The S-FF35 is the real sleeper so:

9,750
+15
$24,750

The E-FF35:

33k
+ 15k (modules)
48k

The modules close the gap.

$9,750 is roughly 1/3 of $33,000

$24,750 is just under 1/2 of $48,000

Don't just think of it as brain versus brain, its package on package.

At this point I am sure I am rambling, whit out hesitating and with out re-reading my words I will simply hit "post quick reply" (which this is only two of the three)

[Casey Green]

I would have suggested that the Scarlets, from 2/3" to FF35 would be X sensors. Already a "better" sensor than the Mysterium sensor at RC36 that we are now so familiar with. More DR, less compressed. RED would still be offering an amazing new camera at an amazing price, like they have done from day one.

If Scarlets where X sensors and Epics where Monstros then the line in the sand would be clear and many of us wouldn't look so confused right now.


That sounds more like how Sony, JVC, Panasonic, and Canon operate.

I like the DSMC options just fine as they are.

[jaadgy akanni]

That sounds more like how Sony, JVC, Panasonic, and Canon operate.

I like the DSMC options just fine as they are.

It would be a real disappointment to see Jim change the promised specs just to satisfy the personal/professional needs of some,while depriving the rest of us. It's just not the kind of man I've come to know Jim to be. I admire the fact that so far, Jim just gives us the best he can give us.

[Mariusz Cichon]

It seems that everybody I talked to that owns R1 camera now wants Epic FF35 and not S35 that is weak model. Hopefully S35 won't be released and more energy will be put to release fully functional better Epic FF35
My 2c

[Nick Wolf]

To win the war sacrifices must be made ... I see this New-Gen as a Fleet rather than a simple Product Line ... Ultimate manuverablity is beyond a non linear concept ( :Lets just leave it at that: )

Brook=It won`t make sence untill later on down the river when all the streams meet up again, Have faith :sorcerer:

This is a very big picture indeed that requires more than taking "A single step back"

I would say a key word to keep in mind to harness the current we are being presented with is "Trust" = Without it we will be simply treading water/standing still = Paralized By Fear ...

ONWARD!


DogDay.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Scarlet S35 and FF36 will reduce Epic sales by at least 25-30%.

My personal opinion: Scarlet models should not have been designed beyond 2/3" chips.

But that's just me.

Right now I am seriously considering staying with my RED, and picking up a Scarlet FF35. It's a ways to go..

Brook, your fears are well founded.

This is a new area for RED, and a lot of camera companies fight this battle all the time. There is always danger of the lower end stock crowding out the higher end stock.

Panasonic has this problem often.

Jim says stuff is subject to change.. I am sure as he reads these forums, and realizes that more people than they want are moving over to Scarlet and not Epics, then they may have to relook at this.

It's also possible that Jim is VERY well aware of what we're all talking about. It's possible he does not expect a lot of Epic sales. It's possible the hot seller is expected to be Scarlet. They have to sell a lot of cameras, and the S35 scarlets are sure to sell like hotcakes. So perhaps, while RED has not done the best thing for the professional market, they HAVE done the best thing for the their business. Which is to move a lot of stock.

For us R1 owners, he's trying to give us the best of both worlds. Scarlet pricing, with EPIC features.

Brook you're right... But I think they've thought this out.

Jay

[Leo Ticheli]

I'm not so sure the S35 Scarlet will be the big seller, unless the FF35 Scarlet is significantly delayed.

For a very small difference in price, there is a huge difference in quality between the Mysterium X and Monstro sensors.

Frankly, I see no reason for the existence of the Mysterium X sensors at all, except in 2/3" Scarlets.

Let's be honest; would any of us favor saving a small amount of money over the vastly superior Monstro?

If Red were to offer the upgrade to the Epic X package with a Monstro sensor (probably the FF35 Brain), even at a higher price, say an extra 5K, would we not jump all over it?

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Sven Seynaeve]

My concern is whether regarding to the estimated release dates of the different setups, how fast will postproduction catch up with these new models,
because this could become the real pita if some are supported and some not because of data moving around.

My second biggest concern is , if you we'd use the mostro ships if we would be allowed to change the redcode quality aswell if we're forced because our editing and grading suites could'nt handle it already.

This could be a second reason why the ff35or s35 could eat up the epics in the very beginning, resulting in higher priced systems staying on the shelf at rental companies, and cheaper systems gaining market because it would get the familiar camera of the mass...

Time is important , and high quality codecs combined with a lack of support and higher priced systems could ruin your business when you would try to achieve the best quality because of purism and the intention to do this as it should be done... but not anybody cares about more quality when finances gain more...

[J. Eric Camp]

Before the natives get upset....

I didn't say I wanted Jim to change or cripple the cameras announced. I said that I would have designed, at the conception stage, different specs for personal reasons.

Everyone who is vehemently defending the way the cameras are now is staring directly at the S-FF35. As you should be.
(and a majority might not own R1's)

Again, no specs, no frames, not real yet so.... we are all using our imaginations....

However as it appears, the S-FF35 is the flagship. I think Leo had the best plan I have heard thus far.

Get the Epic - X package and your free modules. Buy a S-FF35 along with all the other new toys. The S-FF35 becomes your primary camera and the S35-X is your back up and high speed body.

It's a solid plan, although an example of the "gender bending" between Scarlet and Epic.

To recap.
I am not criticizing the DSMC line up, anyone who wants which ever camera they want, Jim or RED. I am simply making conversation in a, "I would have put the cup holder here because that suits my needs/tastes" fashion.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Sometimes this stuff is tough for Jim cause he thinks "Jesus, I cannot make these friggin people happy no matter what I do"

We are happy... Damn happy. And a lot of us are happy RED One owners.

We just love to talk/write... That's all

Jay

[I Bloom]

I'm just about out of ideas. That's my film-industry-apocalypse-stream-of-consciousness rant that'll probably get me in trouble. :)


Brook do you think Jim should build his cameras based how they affect one another in the cinema rental market or based on what is possible and how much they cost to design and build? The former is essentially what every cinema camera manufacturer has been doing for 40 years.

If I was a genius entrepreneur trying to find a market for my amazing low cost camera body, I'd be looking at the potential millions of still photographers versus thousands of cinematographers. I'd know that the still photographers would not pay $30K for my camera but would need access to my best sensor technology. I'd be eager to get those potential customers invested in my product line.

Then I'd go buy an island :biggrin:

I think it's a little early to predict the collapse of the Epic rental market boss. Commercial DPs need to overcrank and they hate windowing. Scarlet will help alot of Indie filmmakers. All is good.

Ian

[Michael Hastings]

[thread split]

I guess the more that I think about it, the more that I realize that the S35 models are kind of... out of place. Here's my reasoning.

The RED ONE can do 4K@30p, 3K@60p and 2K@120p.

The S35 Scarlet can do 4K [which is the S35mm area] at 30p and 2K@72p. It also has the 5K@72p burst mode for the occasional high-speed shot. It has more dynamic range than a stock RED ONE and a larger sensor [so you can shoot real super 35mm instead of Academy].

So to me, the S35 Scarlet is the RED ONE replacement. Sure you lose a few features... but you gain a few as well. Since the features you lose aren't used by 80% of productions anyway, the S35 Scarlet has that market cornered.

Ignoring discounts, we're talking about a $7,000 camera here.

So that essentially turns the S35 Epic at $28,000 into a high-speed camera. Yes it has a few extra features and a higher quality recording mode... but these aren't features that get used on every shoot and the RC80 mode available on the Scarlet is already better than the RED ONE.

I honestly think that many shoots aren't going to bother renting an Epic for 400% more money because of a few features. The Scarlet is going to kill the S35 Epic.
So now you have a $10,000 camera eating a $33,000 camera's lunch. That was really awesome when the RED ONE came along and ate all of Sony's and Panasonic's lunch... but now it's cannibalism to me.

If somebody outfits a Scarlet package in a professional manner, they will be poised to take 80% of the jobs from Epic owners.

I'm not talking about the guy with a Scarlet, a tiny tripod and a Red Rock matte box. I'm talking about the kind of person who slots a Scarlet body into a nice Arri/O'Connor/Ronford/Element Technica/Anton Bauer/all-the-trimmings camera package.

But I really think that Epic owners will find themselves losing a lot of jobs to the soccer mom camera.

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.

I dunno. I'm just about out of ideas. That's my film-industry-apocalypse-stream-of-consciousness rant that'll probably get me in trouble. :)

Brook:

You make some excellent points and I agree that the Scarlet S35 is the new REDONE for those that didn't purchase the REDONE in the first place.

There are two flaws in your thinking and it has to do with real world business decisions.

1) The S35 Epic X with the necessary addons is really only $10K to a couple thousand REDONE owners. S35 Scarlet is about 9-10K for everyone no matter what you had previously so in reality the new out of pocket will be about the same.

2) more importantly even if you work with the $28K vs 10K number no reasonable business will expect - OR NEED - to get 400% more for a rental. It has to do with the actual monthly cost of owning the camera:

A four year lease/finance on $28K with a dollar buyout at the end will cost about $675 at 10% effective interest (a larger financially solid business should be able to do better) plus about $50 a month in insurance so about $725/month to have the EPIC

A four year lease/finance on $10K with a dollar buyout at the end will cost about $250 at 10% effective interest plus about $25 a month in insurance so about $275/month to have the Scarlet S35.

$725-275=$425 month additional cost to have an Epic. So even if you figured only 4 days or so a month in rentals, in reality the renter only has to get $125 a day more for the Epic to make a better profit.

You probably shouldn't think about REDONE rental rates in trying to figure this out because those rates are all over the map because on the one hand you have picture performance that exceeds F900/Varicam so could justifiably be as much or more, yet the camera (in the eyes of outsiders) was buggy, misunderstood, poor workflow, long bootup times, etc - added to a huge influx of cameras and we have seen those lowball rates of $200/day. By the time we get Scarlet epic most of those things will be behind us so it will be a more "normal" camera in the market place.

Once things settle down, after the initial confusion during the manufacturing rampup, I think you will see rental houses book pricing Scarlet just a little more than they currently do for HVX200/EX-1s and S35 Epic/Xs at Varicam/F900 prices. There won't be much incentive to lower the Scarlet price because - like the HVX/Ex type cameras - the prices are already down in the range where the rental price is more about the cost/hassles of putting out the package/customer service than the actual cost of the equipment.

But the plethora of Epic/X packages in the hands of both rental houses and OwnerOperators will mean it will be much more likely that you can get the Epic packages discounted to that $150 to $200/day over the Scarlet package and due to the financial reality of the lease cost it won't hurt the renter do it if they choose - so there is no inherent financial reason for the Scarlet to eat Epics lunch, those decisions can be made based on whether they think they can maximize profits at a higher price and the same or fewer rentals or a lower price and possibly more rentals. For the end user, if price is imperative they can probably get close to a Scarlet rate, but they also get much higher REDCODE (225 or 250) plus those extra frame rates.

All in all, RED's strategy is a smart one for everyone. The upgrade to EpicX decision for me is an easy one and probably 50% of R1 owners will eventually do so as it is the sweet spot for a serious Digital Cinema Camera - and it will get RED's epic volume to the point where they both can afford to do the EpicX upgrade and the engineering/manufacturing for the full Epic line based on interchangeability of bodies, components, etc. and the larger volume for all - that wouldn't be there if the EpicX upgrade program didn't exist.

However, in terms of market competitiveness, for new RED digital cinema/high end video purchasers, the Scarlet S35 and FF will make the most financial sense AND will provide extremely tough competition for Sony/Panny/Canon/Nikon et al. And the higher end Epics will make sense for those who have need or can justify the additional expense for their exceptional capabilities AND will make it difficult for Sony, Arri, etc. to figure out exactly how to position their DC products.

All of this is irrespective of the rest of the "package" but the analysis is okay because that cost would be the same for either camera.

[J. Eric Camp]

Yeah yeah... those photographer types with their endless masses and market.

You are right.

[I Bloom]

All of this is irrespective of the rest of the "package" but the analysis is okay because that cost would be the same for either camera.

Mike are you going to make a new housing for Epic? New tray?

Ian

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

A four year lease?
When I got into RED I thought at the speed Jim's moving the Red One would be on the market for just a couple of years! tops! Now guess what, I have had it for not even 3 months and I am already thinking of how I am going to upgrade in a year.
I think one point in making business with the R1 was to be realistic. Technology is moving faster and faster, and Jim is speeding it up too. Cameras wont be in the market for a long time, just look at what happened with the F23 and the F35. Red moves even faster than the editing suites! They complain about the 4K workflow, what will they do when you show up with 6K material under your arm! I think 4 years is too much these days, just think where Red might be in 4 years.

Red is different, plus its a newborn and I am pretty sure Jim will take care of us. We have to patient but a little speculation didn't hurt anyone, moreover I think this discussion is what makes RED unique.

[James T Mather]

I agree - the Scarlet is an Epic without high frame rates - change that aspect and who would purchase the Epic? Answer - not many people I guess.

I think already that the FF Monstro Scarlet will severely hurt Epic sales and impact negatively on the rental market. Having frame rate options will kill the Epic completely I think - I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to shell out thirty plus grand for a camera to have a comparable one available for nine. Makes no sense to me. So I guess I'm in favour of limiting technology on the lower range cameras - Red is, after all, a business, not a charity.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Following the new line's discussion, what really worries me is where the R1 is left. I think the R1 was extremely popular, and they have seen the niche in scarlet's market. But if the chip is not 2/3 in size, but just as the R1 the jump to Epic doesn't fit into place. Why? Because we have realized how good the R1 is. We now know its more than necessary to produce great images, the scarlet as is, is more than enough. I share Leo's point because it places the Mysterium X at the same spot as the R1: in the middle. If you can upgrade to Monstro, why the M x?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

after thinking around.....
@tom
no i am against crippling anything....
no crippling no nothing.
-------------------------------------

10k for a FF35.

today i dont want EPIC.
today i just would keep the RED as B-Cam, backup...or sell it if someone wants it when the scarlet is there.(or just upgrade later to a bigger EPIC)

buy an el cheapo back up brain if needed.

For the Rest of my Money i will buy something different.

Lenses Baby.
Cooke s4 or/and Master Primes.

why?

when so many scarlets run around gone wild.....you can seperate by perfect lenses.

[Etienne Caron]

I agree - the Scarlet is an Epic without high frame rates - change that aspect and who would purchase the Epic? Answer - not many people I guess.


So far, ive shoot 45 days on set with my Red and only use the high speed function twice. I do mainly fiction (23.98 & 29.97 fps), so i dont think i will need Epic... but the Epic X look so sexy !

I will rent the Epic if in the shoot list we need slow mo... or do it in 2k with Scarlet, just like we do right now with the Red1.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

another point....

i paid aorund 40 000 USD for one RED including 3rd party Hardware (ET etc.) add MB,FF and tripod it ranges independantly between 7k usd to 14 k usd.

thats around 45-47 k for a really workable red rig.

ok lets say someone who hasnt the red one for now and want to buy scarlet s35 for 7k.......i just remove 10k from the 45k usd and what is left is 35k.....without LENSES.

I dont think that people are aware that Aseccoires to get a fully rigged system does cost and will cost.

i dont see a 200 usd/per day scarlet....(excluding the weird guys who do this).

we should stop worrying...there will be NO fully rigged scarlets for 14k usd...
the ones who doesnt have a red yet and are dreaming of buying the scarlet will start the complaing/whining threads when the prices and dimensions for a fully feature ready rig are there.

[J. Eric Camp]

Cuneyt is right.

As I mentioned before, this is not brain on brain action. This is package on package.

75% or so of the people will be happy with the S-FF35 and they will rent the E-FF35 when they need it.

Come to think of it.... the way it is actually might still provide even more separation than I thought.

My final thought is, there are many reasons why Jim is a billionaire and I am not. (yet)

He and the RED team are pretty clever. I am not worried nor upset.

[Brook Willard]

You guys make a hell of a lot of good points. This is why I like this forum. :)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

so group buy on the cooke s4`s ?...hehe

[Michael Hastings]

Mike are you going to make a new housing for Epic? New tray?

Ian

Absolutely, the Epic should be no more difficult to house than RED and a little shorter/smaller.

We could certainly modify RED housings for Epic but usually it is better more sensible to make a new dedicated housing. I think I can make good sense out of allowing a substantial trade in for the RED housings - and would either refurbish/resell or simply spread them around the country at rental houses like Pete Romano did with his Arri Housings and the HMI lights he built for the Abyss.

Every indication is we are almost a year away from Epic availability with a few more months for housings. In order to stimulate RED housing sales and get some people off the fence, I am about to announce a discount and trade in policy that would give people effectively about a 60% trade in value and since the housing price now is $8599 they would be able to use their RED housing for a year or more for a cost of only about $3500 in lost value if they trade it in. And of course that could be even less if they can get more in a resale. The $3500 is a worst case. The other thing is that I could offer an even greater trade-in by simply making a high price on the Epic housing but I don't really want to play the used car tradein game.

By the way, lest someone think I am suggesting in any way that RED is doing that let me make clear that I think the RED case is different. If RED were not doing the REDONE trade in program I suspect that they would sell only a couple hundred Epics in the first year because most people that have REDs could not justify the cost to switch and you would have a much smaller universe of people that could justify those prices (particularly when scarlet will exist as well). However once people think about it for awhile I think they will see that it is foolish NOT to upgrade. The REDONE is a great camera and clearly the best bang for the buck in comparison to anything else out there, BUT it has serious issues with size/weight; power consumption and heat; boot up time; etc. so even if there were not picture quality/frame rate improvements I think you would have to consider upgrading. The fact that we also get much higher data rates (so presumably better recorded picture quality) higher resolution, higher frame rates than REDONE just makes the EpicX upgrade a no brainer. One of our local rental companies - that had resisted buying REDONE - just bought one specifically because of the trade in program. They were waiting for the 2nd gen product but with the trade in they can rent out the R1 for close to a year and then get the camera they wanted at a better deal than just waiting and buying it outright.

I think at least 50% of people will upgrade and this guarantees RED a large number of Epics to get the quantity price breaks for parts and manufacturing costs to make both the upgrade program and the higher level/lower volume Epics feasible. In fact, it seems like even more cameras might get traded in as even those who were stretched to get a REDONE will see that it makes more sense to sell it to someone to trade in and then buy a Scarlet. Which may be a part of the master plan since RED would be getting most of their users on the 2nd generation product.

[Casey Green]

I think one of the most important points to always keep in mind in these discussions is to try to consider many more perspectives than just the ones that are close to your typical production needs.

I believe that what Jim (and the rest of the good folks at RED) are doing is literally testing hundreds of production scenarios when designing these Cameras, deciding their specs, and setting their pricing.

Imagine you are a indie filmmaker fresh out of college with barely any budget. You may consider buying a SCARLET 2/3rd " or S35. (Maybe the FF35 is too expensive). Or, of course, only renting for a while.

Imagine you are a Still photographer you may now like to add high framerate burst modes or even video capture to your business? The DSMCs look good for their size.

Imagine you are a huge rental house in L.A. You want to have the latest and greatest. So you go with the EPIC-X right away, then upgrade to the EPIC FF35 and 645 when they come out.

Imagine you are a documentary maker with run and gun needs but a good budget.

I really believe that Jim is trying to offer solutions to as many customers, both new and repeat, as possible.

Try to keep an open mind and consider these factors which RED must consider for their potential customers needs:

Performance (Features)
Quality (Hardware and Software)
Form Factor
Workflow (On-set and Post)
Support
Third Party Integration
Market (Production Environment Intended / Types of Shooting)
Release Format (DVD, Theatrical, Broadcast, Web, Digital Signage, Print, etc.)
Price (Affordability within particular Market)
Availability (Release Date)

Also consider some of the many factors RED must deal with in creating their products:

Price and Availability of current and new Parts / technology (to manufacture a shipping product)
Funding (Amount of R&D $ to work with, where to spend it)
Price to manufacture (Example: Mass sales = SCARLET fixed lens at lower price)
Market Share (Outside Competition as well as Place within your own Product Line)
Workforce (Amount of Employees and Bandwidth each has for their projects)
Support for current products

I'm just trying to help give perspective to those who may sometimes get caught up in their own world (we all do sometimes). :-) Also, it's good to realize that there probably will never be one Camera that covers every need, but the program RED has in store is probably as close as it gets.

my $.02

[Alexander Nikishin]

Michael, I think your 50% RED One owner trade in figure is quiiiite high.

I think 50% will down or upgrade (however you'd refer to it) to the FF35 Scarlet MONSTRO. Or get the $4,500 M-X upgrade or a FF35 Epic.

The Epic X and Epic S35 are set to become the bastard children of the litter IMO.

Long story short, everyone wants Monstro.

[Michael Hastings]

Michael, I think your 50% RED One owner trade in figure is quiiiite high.

I think 50% will down or upgrade (however you'd refer to it) to the FF35 Scarlet MONSTRO. Or get the $4,500 M-X upgrade or a FF35 Epic.

The Epic X and Epic S35 are set to become the bastard children of the litter IMO.

Long story short, everyone wants Monstro.

I didn't mean only toward the epic x since the $17500 trade in credit is I believe good on any epic.

In fact I think 50% is low, simply because it will be foolish not to trade it in or sell it to someone that wants to trade it in.

Because of the relatively low cost plus the accessories, the EpicX will be the sweet spot and even though everyone WANTS the Monstro I think a great many will decide to accept the Mysterium X select initially and see how Monstro actually performs before spending the extra 10, 20, or 30K it takes to upgrade to one of the monstro Epics. Not to mention, I expect that you will have six months, or possibly much more, time between EpicX and the availability for the Monstro Epics which is that much more time to make money with the EpicX.

EpicX is just the second generation R1, the full frame and monstro cameras are new technologies with consequently greater chance of delays.

AGAIN, EVERYBODY WANTS MONSTRO, but will it make sense for most people.

PS Although I am a committed Birger/SLR proponent, don't forget that the movie world as it stands - be it cooke, Zeiss, Angenieux, Panavision, etc. or whatever - is an S35 format world. And even when it comes to anamorphic the EpicX - with 5K and custom frame sizes - would handle it quite well.

[Alexander Nikishin]

What I'm trying to say Michael is that most people will preferably purchase the FF35 Scarlet rather than the Epic X.

They are the same cost to R1 owners, yet the FF35 Scarlet is Monstro hence my belief that the Epic-X will have poor sales.

If they need high speed, they'll RENT the FF35 Epic.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I honestly never imagined myself purchasing a Scarlet aside from the original $3000 version. But with the announcements in (not final announcements but they well may be) I see myself purchasing a Scarlet FF35, then diving in for the big 645 later. It's the smartest choice and it leaves me with multiple brains to which I can hot swap modules when my 645 does come in.

Again, the Epic-X & S35 models are (As far as I can see) bound for low sales and demand.

[Michael Hastings]

What I'm trying to say Michael is that most people will preferably purchase the FF35 Scarlet rather than the Epic X.

They are the same cost to R1 owners, yet the FF35 Scarlet is Monstro hence my belief that the Epic-X will have poor sales.

If they need high speed, they'll RENT the FF35 Epic.

Ah, it makes more sense to me now. However, just to extend the discussion (as I would like to figure this out myself...) Here are points in favor of EpicX:

1) As mentioned before the timing is quoted as about six months earlier and given the new technology of monstro it is more likely to be delayed.

2) Don't forget the extra cost of CF module, Battery Module, I/O Module.


3) Redcode 250 versus 100. We don't know what this means exactly, but one of the supposed advantages of Arri and others is their true RAW recording. Presumably this gets us much closer.

4) Frame rates: 125 vs 30 is a pretty big jump.

5) Ramping: not available on scarlet S35 or FF35 and this seems like an important feature on highend commercials and maybe a potentially overused but still desirable option for regular and indie movies.

6) Anamorphic - not on FF35 scarlet. Don't know if it matters

7) Perceived market value. ~12K gets you a ~12K scarlet with modules. 10.5K plus your (somewhat obsolete. sorry...) RED gets you a $30,000+ Epic (with included accessories) and if those prices hold at all or close, then your asset value is much better.

[Peter McCully]

I honestly never imagined myself purchasing a Scarlet aside from the original $3000 version. But with the announcements in (not final announcements but they well may be) I see myself purchasing a Scarlet FF35, then diving in for the big 645 later. It's the smartest choice and it leaves me with multiple brains to which I can hot swap modules when my 645 does come in.

Again, the Epic-X & S35 models are (As far as I can see) bound for low sales and demand.

This is my current thinking also. Although no doubt things will change considerably over the coming year. I wonder if it is better to hold back the R1 trade in for when the Monstros do come out. So, getting the Scarlet to initially buy in to the system, get the peripherals and be making use of them from the start then having the serial number priority with the R1 when Epic is ready.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Here's how it breaks down for me Michael....

For starters, it's already been established that everyone wants Monstro. The added 2 stops of DR are the most wanted feature to many including myself.

The lowest cost model that has this FF35 Monstro sensor is the Scarlet FF35. The cost of the FF35 Scarlet is $10K plus let's say for the sake of safety that all the necessary modules will cost an additional $5K. $15K total.

So for $15K total I've got a Scarlet FF35 with a Monstro sensor, I've got all the necessary modules which can later be used on my 645 (or FF35 Epic pacakge for the sake of others). So all I would then need to do at a later date is trade in my R1 and purchase the 645 brain.

Now I've got my 645 brain and all the necessary modules to run it. PLUS, I've got a Scarlet FF35 brain just in case a production has a small budget and can't afford the features found on my 645. So, I've effectively become a one-stop shop for rentals all the way down to the film school budgets, all the way up to the large budget shows.

Now to hit on your points.....

1) As mentioned before the timing is quoted as about six months earlier and given the new technology of monstro it is more likely to be delayed.

I'd rather invest smartly and wait the 6 months rather than spend money for the sake of being "ahead of the pack".

2) Don't forget the extra cost of CF module, Battery Module, I/O Module.

I'll have all the modules necessary for either of my brains.

3) Redcode 250 versus 100. We don't know what this means exactly, but one of the supposed advantages of Arri and others is their true RAW recording. Presumably this gets us much closer.

I've read elsewhere that these numbers don't necessarily relate to the bit rate so that is yet to be found as an advantage.

4) Frame rates: 125 vs 30 is a pretty big jump.

Again, productions can always rent an Epic brain if high speed is needed.

5) Ramping: not available on scarlet S35 or FF35 and this seems like an important feature on highend commercials and maybe a potentially overused but still desirable option for regular and indie movies.

Ramping is a cool feature, but it is also easily accomplished by shooting at your target slowest frame rate and ramping in post.

7) Perceived market value. ~12K gets you a ~12K scarlet with modules. 10.5K plus your (somewhat obsolete. sorry...) RED gets you a $30,000+ Epic (with included accessories) and if those prices hold at all or close, then your asset value is much better.

We're talking about spending (And here's my blind guesstimate again) an additional $5K on modules. That's a price well worth paying IMO.

[Steven Parker]

The thing I'm trying to figure out is - what is Red going to do with those R1 bodies that get traded in?

There must be a plan for them....:detective2:

[Alexander Nikishin]

Museum pieces?

[Alexander Nikishin]

One main point that I forgot to add Michael was that if I did trade in my R1 for the Epic-X, I'd then lose my $17.5K trade in value and would have to then re-sell my Epic-X in order to recoup enough money for the 645 (Or in most people's case the Epic FF35).

The re-sale value is a very loose number as of now but I'd say it will sell back for around $20K. That means that I have to first off worry about selling it to someone, second off I now have to purchase the 645 for $43K, leaving me spending $23K for my 645, now I have to hop back in line in order to secure a Scarlet FF35 to fill the low end of my rentals.

With that being said, it seems much smarter to just start off with the low-end of my brains (The S-FF35) and add on the 645 later and not even have to worry about re-sales.

[Poi Boy]

Lots of good stuff to think about on this thread. I think it is important to note that we have not seen any images from a mysterium x sensor yet. If it turns out to be an amazing sensor, that would have a big effect on my decision.
Aloha
-A

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

But surely there will be an upgrade path from there, I mean, would RED receive our old Epics for the new ODYSSEY with the Monstro-x-treme? :)

[nick allsop]

pro glass is pl mount. s35 is a standard in cinema ff35 is not. ff35 glass is stills glass and is not going to be ideal. yes i want the best sensor but i want it to fit current pro sizes. i'm hoping the epic x select would allow an upgrade to a monstro s35 size sensor when one is designed instead of swapping the whole brain, i'm just guessing what the "SELECT" means.
i'm worried that red might be spending to much time working on unproven formats instead of just being ahead of every body else with current ones.
we are still waiting for the pl mount red primes, red are now going to make 8 more cameras and loads of different lenses with different lens mounts. it will all get very confusing.

[Jaime Vallés]

Again, the Epic-X & S35 models are (As far as I can see) bound for low sales and demand.
It's anyone's guess, but I actually think the opposite will happen. The S35 Scarlet is scheduled to come out first, Summer '09, followed closely by the S35 Epic X & 2/3"-i Scarlet. I feel that people are going to go nuts when those come out, and will purchase them instantly. S35, 5K, 72fps bursts... That's really all you need for a major motion picture, except for the 13 stops of DR. But Monstro FF sensors are going to take a while (currently scheduled for 1/2 year after S35 Scarlet & Epics ship.)

The delay between Monstro cameras and Mysterium X cameras will determine how well the S35 models sell.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Brook do you think Jim should build his cameras based how they affect one another in the cinema rental market or based on what is possible and how much they cost to design and build? The former is essentially what every cinema camera manufacturer has been doing for 40 years.

If I was a genius entrepreneur trying to find a market for my amazing low cost camera body, I'd be looking at the potential millions of still photographers versus thousands of cinematographers. I'd know that the still photographers would not pay $30K for my camera but would need access to my best sensor technology. I'd be eager to get those potential customers invested in my product line.



I think Ian said it very well...I was also thinking this way...

So....
people wanted high resolution, high framerate, low compression camera.
This and that features. Jim said okay...but it would cost you. People said okay, make us one.
Jim did. Enters Epic.

It is my understanding that Scarlet was a logical path from RED. Better sensor, smaller size, lighter, financially more reachable. Even greater tool for even more artists. That sounds like RED philosophy.

I'm guessing that he added Epic just because people asked for it and he realized he could. He said framerates are expensive.


Wanting RED to keep high pricing for the technology it can offer for lower price is wanting RED to be Sony, IMO.


If there is a fear of investing in Epic because of Scarlet's features...the answer is pretty easy.
Buy Scarlet.

I'm sure Jim won't have sleepless nights over this.
I don't think he started making cams to make rental houses happy.

[Harry Clark]

Lots of good discussion here.
For the markets that I serve, the cost of the body is a small part of the package price of a camera. If I had to knock a few hundred off the rental price of my Epic I would not care.
I like Leo's idea of taking advantage of the S35 Epic-X trade in, AND getting a FF35 Scarlet. I would put them both in the case as a package deal. A backup body plus options. I'd offer it for my current rental price of the Red One.
It's currently a confusing situation, but things will be clearer as these cameras are developed further. The key is to find your niche and see what value you add to the equation.
And it's OK to have a business plan, by the way. It's the film business, not the film hobby!
Cheers,
Harry

[wardovision]

My personal opinion: Scarlet models should not have been designed beyond 2/3" chips.

They have to sell a lot of cameras, and the S35 scarlets are sure to sell like hotcakes. So perhaps, while RED has not done the best thing for the professional market, they HAVE done the best thing for the their business.

Jay
So you don't think that they should make the model that's going to sell "like hotcakes"? Sounds to me like a few customers need to rethink their stratagies and not the other way around.

Furthermore, I'm astounded that people are actually asking for features to be crippled in ANY model. We've already have that for years with Sony and Panasonic and that's the last thing we need from RED. Sure it might be good for you in the short term but in the end everyone loses. (except for maybe Panasonic capitalizing on the hole left by RED if they did actually listen)

[Meryem Ersoz]

I don't think that anyone is suggesting "crippling" anything, and I think the people using that phrase should lay down that sword.

But if you are going to have a product line, with a distinct price hierarchy, then that price hierarchy should also make sense. And the distinctions among feature sets should make sense as well. Folks have suggested distinguishing by sensor, by chip size -- whatever. The point is, that the current distinction appears to be by frame rate and more resolution, and those are not necessarily the most desirable features in a given camera.

I'm sure that Jim thought he was responding positiviely to all the yackety-yak about why won't he build a 1000 fps camera with this standards revision, but many users, myself included, would much prefer more latitude over more ability to overcrank.

So the struggle is, why do I want an EPIC X with a Mysterium-X sensor versus a much cheaper FF Monstro-equipped SCARLET?

I think the sense that you can have whatever you want by buying more brain is somehow being offset by the sense that there are some trade-offs baked into the new standards. Current RED ONE users have several dilemmas from which to choose -- none of which are bad -- but they are dilemmas.

Each of us has to figure out what you are willing to give up versus the price point you can afford, unless, of course, you can afford it all, and then there is nothing to discuss. That is all. That uncertainty is what this discussion is about.

For me, I am stuck between wanting a great cross-grade into the modular system with the EPIC-X or hanging onto RED ONE and seeing if a Monstro upgrade becomes available.

Step into the modular future or stick with the RED ONE's upgradeable sensor program?

Lightweight FF SCARLET for more cash-ola, or already paid-for heavy RED ONE?

Dilemmas, dilemmas.

Forget this fear-mongering about crippling cameras. That's just b.s. Everyone just wants the most for the least, and no one wants to feel that they are making an unexamined choice....

[Michael Hastings]

This is from my post on the Monstro thread, but I think it may be useful here.


And just how much do you think the "Sensor" would cost?

The "Brain" is the sensor. The circuitry necessary to capture and transmit the image from the sensor, and the sensor itself, are inextricably linked. You can't have one without the other.

The price reflects the cost of the sensor as well as the cost of the processor needed to render the image stream from that sensor.

If all I need is a FF sensor I gain absolutely no benefit having the processor from a 645 and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Conversely, if you want a 9K (or 28K) image you will also have to bear the cost of the processor that will support it.

The brain is a component of the camera, the brain by itself will not produce an image.

The design of epic allows you to choose exactly the sensor you need to create the camera that you want. That camera will consist of at least a dozen other parts and modules.

If your needs change, then you have the ability to replace just the exact part that you need to be change; all your other components stay the same.

Higher performance always costs more, there is no way to get around that.

"I think you are right, many people seem to think that changing the sensor is all that has to happen. Jim has already said they are moving to ASICs for the EPICs and Scarlets. It will probably be something along the lines of the DIGIC chips Canon has in their cameras and it may be a matter of Scarlet 3K only needs a single "REDIC" chip where others may use 2,3,4,8 or whatever working in parallel. Not only would it require more "REDIC" chips as you move up the scale but some type of bridging software and hardware, with development, hardware, and support costs for those spread out over a much smaller number of cameras.

While it would be great if there was a trade-in upgrade path from epic x to FF monstro I can see how this may not be feasible. I think the answer to the tradein for epic x or wait for monstro will boil down to where you are in the program. As an early number - RED 206 - I suspect it will make sense for me to grab an EpicX early on and make money with it while it is hot even if my ultimate goal is Monstro. REDONE owners farther down the line will have a harder decision. However, I do expect (although fine with being pleasantly surprised) that we should be reading the expected delivery dates as monstro being 1.5 to 2 seasons behind and closer to six months than three months. The monstro based cameras are more likely to be pushing the envelope and require more testing and tweaking before ready, and since it is likely to become the flagship, RED may want it to be a bit more mature at release than maybe the EpicX where RED knows that the previous redone owners are a little more risk tolerant and use to debugging on-the-fly.

In thinking about it, it seems to me my upgrade path is EpicX ASAP and the accessories included probably mean the upgrade really only costs $7K or so - and then a Scarlet FF monstro. Scarlet FF Monstro becomes the main camera for higher dynamic range and bit depth at normal frame rates. EpicX becomes my high speed camera. And both brains are available as backup to each other. In either case, I hope we have good smart mount support for Canon still lenses. EpicFF will become the do it all camera farther down the line and for new purchasers at the higher end."

PS A final thought. A while back - at about build 13 - Jim said if the camera never got better he could be happy for the rest of his life shooting with it as it was, and realistically that is how I feel about the REDONE - I can easily see how it can be better and I will upgrade because I can make business sense out of it. But in reality, if all I ever had was a REDONE I can see that it is all I really NEED pretty much for the foreseeable future. It produces far better pictures overall than the HDCAM/Varicams that I didn't buy because I couldn't make sense out of the minimal jump I got from the Z1/HVX style cameras (and I spent 30-40K on SD cameras in the 90s so it wasn't being afraid to spend that kind of money). The REDONE may not be the best 2 years from now but in reality it will suffice for virtually all network/documentary production and indy film production then and into the future.

Essentially, RED has shown you what is likely to be the entire market capability over the next 10 years. We are currently in a rapid improvement/development cycle as we moved from 3 chip small chip SD/HD cameras to CMOS/DSLR crossover to Motion picture technology and REDONE was really a convergence and implementation of what was available. Monstro is likely to hit the next "shelf" in sensor/camera technology with resolution and dynamic range that truly matches or exceeds film and probably meets a level that will truly last, without any significant quality compromise, for the rest of my lifetime.

Instead of the normal situation where SonyPan dribbles out the technology, with no roadmap for us and we have to constantly wonder "do I buy now, or wait so I don't get hammered when they introduce the next big leap that they knew about all along" - RED is not only giving us good choices at every budget level, but actually laying out the entire program for us, so we can make informed choices with an awareness of what is coming and how that factors into our current decisions.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Furthermore, I'm astounded that people are actually asking for features to be crippled in ANY model.

I am so tired of the cripple thing.
:sick:
Expressing an opinion should be an element of discussion, but this is so nonconstructive.

[Mark K.]

I'm also rather confused by the people who think the Scarlet and Epic cameras shouldn't have any comparable features (namely large S35mm and FF sensors). Like any company that offers a range of products the bulk of Red's sales are going to come from the lower end of the lineup.

Are these people worried about keeping Red out of the red (so to speak)? Scarlet cameras will most likely make Red far more money than Epic ever will. And that's perfectly normal. Think of how much Sony makes from selling F23s and F35s; now imagine how much more they make (proportionally) from selling XDCAMs; then their prosumer cameras; then finally their consumer cameras.

It called: "economies of scale"

[JohnF]

It called: "economies of scale"

Yep! I believe that the Sony Z1 sold thirty thousand units over a 12month period bringing Sony a cool £90million in sales. I suspect that is slightly more than their professional 1080 cameras did over the same period. (sarcasm)

And bare in mind that the Z1 was just a marginally improved miniDV camera...

JohnF

[Joel Kaye]

What we are facing is brand dilution.

Imagine the playing field when the plethora of Red camera models is on the street, a dizzying array of imager sizes and accessories.

Will the "Red" brand be enhanced by thousands of fixed-lens Scarlets proclaiming themselves to be "Reds?"

Will we enjoy trying to explain to producers, a group not lauded for technical expertise, that our Epic is better than a Scarlet? What if it isn't??? The cool color scheme of the Epic X may not look so hot when a 10K Scarlet is beating it like a rented mule.

Leo


Just got to read this thread now and I agree with Leo and Brook.

To me Scarlet and EPIC now seem more like Scarlet and Scarlet HS (high speed) and Scarlet 645 etc.

EPIC and Scarlet shouldn't share the same chips... the break between the lines should be on form factor really. Scarlet should have remained a truly consumer pocket camera as originally envisioned.

The EPIC line should have replaced RED and the entry level EPIC still could have been the same as the $7k Scarlet. Right now it's a product matrix cluster f&*k I'm already tired of confused people asking me to explain.

No Scarlet should be arguably better than any EPIC. Simple.



Are these people worried about keeping Red out of the red (so to speak)? Scarlet cameras will most likely make Red far more money than Epic ever will. And that's perfectly normal... economies of scale.

Fine, then Kill Scarlet or EPIC and sell the living daylights out of one great camera because the economies of scale should bring EPIC w/monstro down in cost too, right?

I don't think it's really that simple...

As it stands I'm probably going to sell RED (or the EPIC I upgrade to) to buy a Scarlet... which will put me in the semi awkward position of selling against EPIC... and it'll be really easy for me to sell against EPIC.

In fact, RED will have a forum full of people like Brook poo pooing the added cost of EPIC. That's just a bad future to envision, isn't it?

But if EPIC was a stop faster (for real) and had more dynamic range because it had a Monstro chip then I'd upgrade RED to EPIC. That's something I know I can talk people into using instead of a Scarlet.

[Antoine Baumann]

Epic is more than high frame rate to me is has also better compression (or less compression) and that is very important to me.
I also want to shoot s35 cine lens on a s35 sensor, don't ask why that's my feeling.
So epic s35 makes sens to me. Just make a monstro version of it.

And about hot seller, i think the scarlet 2/3 with lens @ less than 4000$ will be the one.

ciaow,
antoine.

[Chris Kenny]

The reason the lineup is so confusing, as nearly as I can tell, is that Red basically announced the next two generations of cameras in a single announcement, despite the fact that they're not actually shipping at the same time.

Seriously. If they hadn't done that, the entire announced lineup would be:

http://www.indie4k.com/files/mx_cameras.gif

Everything would be completely clear and nobody would be freaking out. And current Red One customers would all be really excited about being able to upgrade to Red's new high-end camera at a great price.

The issue is, though, that not only was the third generation of Red cameras announced at the same time as the second, but it's also going to be offered (at least according to the currently posted dates) at an awkwardly close interval. What most companies would probably do in this situation is, instead of introducing the Monstro cameras six months or so after the Mysterium X cameras, and alongside the Mysterium X but at moderately higher price points... wait an extra 12 months, working on getting the price down. At that point, have the new Monstro models replace the Mysterium X models, at the same price points occupied by the Mysterium X models.

But this is Red, so they're basing their product line around what the technology makes possible rather than fitting the technology into products designed according to market considerations. It's now clear this is sometimes going to result in slightly awkward things like third generation sensors following second generation sensors by six months rather than by [industry standard upgrade cycle length].

[Zack Birlew]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

You don't want a Scarlet with the best features possible?

You don't think there should be a FF35 Scarlet model?

You don't think that there is enough differentiation between RED's lineup?

You want to pay more for a RED camera?(!?)

What is your deal guys!? I'm not a rental company, I'm a filmmaker, the RED Scarlet FF35 is my dream camera, especially for the price. If you're so worried about Scarlet eating up sales of an Epic, don't buy an Epic! There problem solved! When it comes to examining the differences between Scarlet and Epic, if you can't tell the difference between S35 and FF35, you're in the wrong business. Also, I can't believe how many people on REDUser.net don't see the difference between 1-60fps and 1-100+fps. If you don't understand that, then maybe you should just stick with a Sony EX3 and ride this whole 3K+ thing out. Speaking of the EX3, people have griped from day one about there not being a 1080p mode on RED's cameras. Well, now they do have that on nearly all of their models. See, that show's they're listening, so if you want them to jack up prices, take away features, and let them know that you're questioning their judgement about market sense, please keep on talking. RED doesn't cater to the rental business, they cater to creative professionals of all kinds. To ask them to adjust so that rental houses or renting camera owners won't have to deal with deciding what models to get, it just doesn't make sense to what RED has set out to do. If you want an oppressive camera company, go with Sony ("You want what? You don't need that.") or Panasonic ("Pixel shifting, it's good enough for me!") or Canon ("Now, remember guys, we don't want to alienate our old XL customers with this video DSLR thing. Break it.")

Pick out what model you like. If you can afford it, go for an Epic model of some sort and be happy, but don't try to stamp on the less financially fortunate people who have to "settle" with the Scarlet lineup.

[Jannard]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

You don't want a Scarlet with the best features possible?

You don't think there should be a FF35 Scarlet model?

You don't think that there is enough differentiation between RED's lineup?

You want to pay more for a RED camera?(!?)

What is your deal guys!? I'm not a rental company, I'm a filmmaker, the RED Scarlet FF35 is my dream camera, especially for the price. If you're so worried about Scarlet eating up sales of an Epic, don't buy an Epic! There problem solved! When it comes to examining the differences between Scarlet and Epic, if you can't tell the difference between S35 and FF35, you're in the wrong business. Also, I can't believe how many people on REDUser.net don't see the difference between 1-60fps and 1-100+fps. If you don't understand that, then maybe you should just stick with a Sony EX3 and ride this whole 3K+ thing out. Speaking of the EX3, people have griped from day one about there not being a 1080p mode on RED's cameras. Well, now they do have that on nearly all of their models. See, that show's they're listening, so if you want them to jack up prices, take away features, and let them know that you're questioning their judgement about market sense, please keep on talking. RED doesn't cater to the rental business, they cater to creative professionals of all kinds. To ask them to adjust so that rental houses or renting camera owners won't have to deal with deciding what models to get, it just doesn't make sense to what RED has set out to do. If you want an oppressive camera company, go with Sony ("You want what? You don't need that.") or Panasonic ("Pixel shifting, it's good enough for me!") or Canon ("Now, remember guys, we don't want to alienate our old XL customers with this video DSLR thing. Break it.")

Pick out what model you like. If you can afford it, go for an Epic model of some sort and be happy, but don't try to stamp on the less financially fortunate people who have to "settle" with the Scarlet lineup.

Made me smile... :-)

Jim

[Tico Llaurador]

Zack is a good guy, Jim. Honest to goodness filmmaker. He'll buy you a Scarlet FF35 with a Nikon mount. It's in the cards.

Then, he'll be the one smiling.

[imported_Cedric_Akins]

Great post Zack. I am finacially unfortunate, when compared to others. I can only afford what I can afford. When the fixed lens 2/3" Scarlet comes out that is what I can afford. But I still would like the EPIC MONSTRO. :)

As for me I have no fear as it pertains to the release of Scarlet/Epic. BRING IT ON!!!! :spidy:

[Joel Kaye]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

I didn't read the whole thread either but that would be a complete mischaracterization of my thoughts on the topic. (You didn't address me so I don't assume that's what you intended.)

I want the best, cheapest camera possible and RED keeps delivering great stuff on that front.

I just want to be able explain it easily to people. I bet a lot of RED owners feel like RED sales reps when we go out (to shoot or to the bar). So I go out there and defend RED all the time, but back here at the forums I usually note things that I think could be better. The guys at RED might not fully understand that... we're on YOUR SIDE! :-)

The new designs look great and the price/features for Scarlet look great. I just think Scarlet turned into something so far away from the pocket camera it once was that it's really now feels like part of the EPIC modular line to me. So I'm really talking about marketing theory and not knocking RED at all for great hardware and pricing they've come up with.

I'm certainly not asking for crippled features and higher prices. Gotta agree - that would be insane!

EDIT - "Scarlet" seems like it is the 2/3" fixed lens camera. What's the true delineation of Scarlet? The user. It's the dvxuser over on ScarletUser.com that needs a sub $5k camera all in. At $10K-$15K with required accessories Scarlet isn't Scarlet anymore to me. Should that person be hanging out on the Scarlet forum? Or would they be more at home here? Not that I should care about such things, but for some reason those kinda things interest me.

[imported_Cedric_Akins]

EDIT - "Scarlet" seems like it is the 2/3" fixed lens camera. What's the true delineation of Scarlet? The user. It's the dvxuser over on ScarletUser.com that needs a sub $5k camera all in. At $10K-$15K with required accessories Scarlet isn't Scarlet anymore to me. Should that person be hanging out on the Scarlet forum? Or would they be more at home here? Not that I should care about such things, but for some reason those kinda things interest me.

Hey Joel. Although my post count does not show it, I started here on reduser before the Red One had finished. After the R1 was completed and orders were being delivered I knew it was out of my reach, as far as pricing was concerned, but I was still interested in learning more about the camera and the company. Being that I am "in the business" I try to stay up to date with the latest product information out in the market, as do most people. I then here that Red is planning to release a camera in the price range of $3K that shoots 3K, BINGO that is for me!!! All of the news that Red puts out pertains to thier cameras as well as ALL of thier perspective customers. I feel right at home on either Reduser or Scarletuser. If I remember correctly this is the type of attitude that actually spurred the need for scarletuser back in April and May of this year. It seems as though some of the R1 or perspective Epic owners feel that anyone thinking of owning Scarlet is less professional than they are. My investment may be smaller in amount but it is no less important to me than yours is to you. Please understand that.

[Joel Kaye]

If I remember correctly this is the type of attitude that actually spurred the need for scarletuser back in April and May of this year.

I'm not really following your point exactly.

I'm pretty sure the reason they created ScarletUser was because the noise level from ScarletUsers was really high at the time (right after NAB) and the moderator wanted to separate that noise away from the RED forum as it was really detracting from the experience here.

I definitely am NOT saying someone who spends less money is less professional. In fact, I'm usually the guy defending SLR lenses, off brand lights, dollies, steadicams etc. so I think I'm actually on the same side as you there. :-)

To me this thread is more of a product positioning discussion really. So... strategically either Scarlet is a different product with different users that REQUIRES a different forum or it's not. I think when they created the Scarlet forum it WAS, but now that no longer is the case. Maybe the Scarlet forum is no longer needed? If it is, then why?

[Tom Lowe]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

You don't want a Scarlet with the best features possible?

You don't think there should be a FF35 Scarlet model?

You don't think that there is enough differentiation between RED's lineup?

You want to pay more for a RED camera?(!?)

What is your deal guys!? I'm not a rental company, I'm a filmmaker, the RED Scarlet FF35 is my dream camera, especially for the price. If you're so worried about Scarlet eating up sales of an Epic, don't buy an Epic! There problem solved! When it comes to examining the differences between Scarlet and Epic, if you can't tell the difference between S35 and FF35, you're in the wrong business. Also, I can't believe how many people on REDUser.net don't see the difference between 1-60fps and 1-100+fps. If you don't understand that, then maybe you should just stick with a Sony EX3 and ride this whole 3K+ thing out. Speaking of the EX3, people have griped from day one about there not being a 1080p mode on RED's cameras. Well, now they do have that on nearly all of their models. See, that show's they're listening, so if you want them to jack up prices, take away features, and let them know that you're questioning their judgement about market sense, please keep on talking. RED doesn't cater to the rental business, they cater to creative professionals of all kinds. To ask them to adjust so that rental houses or renting camera owners won't have to deal with deciding what models to get, it just doesn't make sense to what RED has set out to do. If you want an oppressive camera company, go with Sony ("You want what? You don't need that.") or Panasonic ("Pixel shifting, it's good enough for me!") or Canon ("Now, remember guys, we don't want to alienate our old XL customers with this video DSLR thing. Break it.")

Pick out what model you like. If you can afford it, go for an Epic model of some sort and be happy, but don't try to stamp on the less financially fortunate people who have to "settle" with the Scarlet lineup.

This is what I have been saying for weeks. http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Please let Jim be the business man and decide about "product differentiation."

It really goes against the whole Red mentality to be arguing for features to be removed from Red cameras that other people might want to buy and use.

[imported_Cedric_Akins]

I'm not really following your point exactly.

I'm pretty sure the reason they created ScarletUser was because the noise level from ScarletUsers was really high at the time (right after NAB) and the moderator wanted to separate that noise away from the RED forum as it was really detracting from the experience here.

Fair enough. I kind of remember that the discussions were growing rather fast concerning the Scarlet. And yes I could see how it was taking away from the Red1's focus.


I definitely am NOT saying someone who spends less money is less professional. In fact, I'm usually the guy defending SLR lenses, off brand lights, dollies, steadicams etc. so I think I'm actually on the same side as you there. :-)

The less any of us HAVE to spend the better our own personal budgets feel. :)


To me this thread is more of a product positioning discussion really. So... strategically either Scarlet is a different product with different users that REQUIRES a different forum or it's not. I think when they created the Scarlet forum it WAS, but now that no longer is the case. Maybe the Scarlet forum is no longer needed? If it is, then why?

As I understand it both Scarlet and Epic are being placed in the market for the varing need of professionals in the industry. Being that they both share the same modular accessories they are being marketed as complements to one another. Some studios will prefer to take Scarlets and use them as "crash cams" or B-roll cameras. Then purchase an Epic or two for principal photography. This way you could still use any of the accessory modules for any of the cameras if you needed to do so. At least that is my understanding. It helps to keep the manufacturing costs low for the consumer and the company.

[Joseph Ward]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

You don't want a Scarlet with the best features possible?

You don't think there should be a FF35 Scarlet model?

You don't think that there is enough differentiation between RED's lineup?

You want to pay more for a RED camera?(!?)

What is your deal guys!? I'm not a rental company, I'm a filmmaker, the RED Scarlet FF35 is my dream camera, especially for the price. If you're so worried about Scarlet eating up sales of an Epic, don't buy an Epic! There problem solved! When it comes to examining the differences between Scarlet and Epic, if you can't tell the difference between S35 and FF35, you're in the wrong business. Also, I can't believe how many people on REDUser.net don't see the difference between 1-60fps and 1-100+fps. If you don't understand that, then maybe you should just stick with a Sony EX3 and ride this whole 3K+ thing out. Speaking of the EX3, people have griped from day one about there not being a 1080p mode on RED's cameras. Well, now they do have that on nearly all of their models. See, that show's they're listening, so if you want them to jack up prices, take away features, and let them know that you're questioning their judgement about market sense, please keep on talking. RED doesn't cater to the rental business, they cater to creative professionals of all kinds. To ask them to adjust so that rental houses or renting camera owners won't have to deal with deciding what models to get, it just doesn't make sense to what RED has set out to do. If you want an oppressive camera company, go with Sony ("You want what? You don't need that.") or Panasonic ("Pixel shifting, it's good enough for me!") or Canon ("Now, remember guys, we don't want to alienate our old XL customers with this video DSLR thing. Break it.")

Pick out what model you like. If you can afford it, go for an Epic model of some sort and be happy, but don't try to stamp on the less financially fortunate people who have to "settle" with the Scarlet lineup.

Thank you! :)

[Hrvoje Simic]

I just want to be able explain it easily to people. I bet a lot of RED owners feel like RED sales reps when we go out (to shoot or to the bar). So I go out there and defend RED all the time, but back here at the forums I usually note things that I think could be better. The guys at RED might not fully understand that... we're on YOUR SIDE! :-)



Providing new technology and features RED chose to be ahead of time. That means that accompanying software, hardware, workflow and knowledge of it has to keep up with that leap. Jumping on RED ride meant accepting this offset, which will "align" eventually.

I understand your point, but if in the end all the problems we are left with are explaining the differences in RED's lineup...I'll be perfectly okay with that. :-)

[Mark Pedersen]

I hope RED is reading all of this good market research. Here's what we know:

1. Everyone wants the Monstro chip for its higher dynamic range.

2. A lot of people want to continue to use S35 cine glass.

3. Only some people will find regular use for very high speed cameras.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that the one camera RED didn't introduce is the one that would garner the vast majority of their future sales: An Epic (or even a Scarlet) with a S35 Monstro chip. Make that camera, price it as the RED One reward, and Jim would have the slam dunk winner of the decade. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I'd buy two right now and have no doubts I was getting the camera I really need/want.

I mean, come on. Jim has already said that the RED One will be getting a Monstro upgrade down the line. If RED can find a way to stuff a Monstro into the RED One, then surely they can find a way to make a Monstro in S35 (which is a larger chip than the RED One's Academy S35).

I'm really surprised that they have drawn this line (no S35 Monstro) in the sand. It just doesn't make any sense and leaves a very large hole in the market for some other company to exploit.

Stephen

Couldn't agree more (accept for the high speed part). Build an S35 Monstro with 13 stops of DR and high speed options PLEASE!!

M

[Jannard]

You guys crack me up. Who drew a line in the sand? Someday there will be a Monstro sensor for S35 EPIC. And it will go in the RED ONE. But this one will take some time to develop.

Please read my SS post again. The bad assumptions are starting to wear on me.

If you need the perfect camera in every way, just sit back and wait a few years. But do me a favor and stop posting stupid stuff until then...

I need a timeout.

Jim

[Raul Gonzo]

The title of this thread says it all: "fear"
Fear of the unknown & unnecessary speculation.
I say we close this thread and stick to productive threads.

[Shawn Nelson]

Jim, situations like this are why God gave us whisky :-)

Frankly, my Red is enough. Now, I'll be first in line to claim EpicX #27, but if Red was all there was going to be for five years, I'd be happy.

[Jannard]

Monstro is very experimental sensor technology. As of today it will not work in a smaller sensor... hence no S35 Monstro. I am quite sure that as time goes on we will figure out a way to make it work, but for now our lineup is what it is. The silly thing is that there is nothing that comes close to Mysterium-X in the market. It is better, faster, more DNR and a major improvement over the RED ONE which seems to be doing just fine in the right hands.

The "I want, I want" is really frustrating when we are delivering so much, so fast, for so little. We bend over backwards for our customers. We are developing at a rapid pace when others are closing the doors or shutting off development dollars.

You have no idea what you are talking about when you ask for a Monstro sensor in an S35 package today. The insult is when people infer that we are holding back something. All I can say is that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when you post this stuff.

If there is something in our program that you can afford and figure out how to use... wonderful. But please direct your uneducated and unreasonable requests to 1-800-SONYUSA.

Have a great Holiday Season.

Jim

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Monstro is very experimental sensor technology. As of today it will not work in a smaller sensor... hence no S35 Monstro.
Jim

I didnt know that!
Thanks for explaining. Really appreciated.:biggrin:
This sole post has cleared a lot of doubts I had.
I hope I have enough resources to upgrade once the time comes.
In the meantime, I will get the most out of my R1. A machine that changed my life. Thanks again.

[ChristopherKenworthy]

You have no idea what you are talking about when you ask for a Monstro sensor in an S35 package today.

I was guilty of begging for this a few weeks ago, because I want to use Monstro with Ultra Primes at S35. But once I found out we could just window the FF35 to S35, I was happy. More than happy.

I think for many of us, once we knew Monstro was coming, we all wanted to skip Mysterium-X and go straight for Monstro. But when I actually look at the results we're getting now, I wonder why we're so eager. I've worked with a few people using the Red One, and with the right DP and the right post path, the the Red One we have now is bloody amazing. So, any improvement is a pure gift.

[Stuart English]

I was guilty of begging for this a few weeks ago, because I want to use Monstro with Ultra Primes at S35.

But once I found out we could just window the FF35 to S35, I was happy. More than happy.

Yup, just put a S35 PL lens mount on a FF35 Scarlet or FF35 EPIC and you have what you want... and more for any occasions when S35 isn't enough.

[Steve Sherrick]

I've worked with a few people using the Red One, and with the right DP and the right post path, the the Red One we have now is bloody amazing. So, any improvement is a pure gift.

You hit the nail on the head, and this is why Jim is getting upset. Some of the posts have come off as greedy, unrealistic, and probably to a certain extent insulting to Jim and his business model. Jim set the bar high with Red One, and now the expectation is that they'll go higher, jump through any hoops people ask of them, and do it at a speed that even the big boys can't do with all their resources.

People will post their opinions, that's the way forums work. But I like having Jim around here because it's his show and he's the best resource of information regarding the products. Why piss him off and send him on a leave of absence?

I know what Red One is capable of. I expect Mysterium-X to be the next step in the evolution and to improve on some of Mysterium's weaknesses (which in many case are still better than a lot of other cameras). Monstro will come in due time and people will upgrade if it fits there needs.

In the meantime, we can all have a lot of fun shooting high quality images with Red One.

Everybody take a deep breath and enjoy the holiday.

[Zach Zoller]

Jim, give me your "experimental" sensors and anything else you may be experimenting with and I'd love to go shoot a feature with them. If there are glitches, bugs, or unknowns I'll take them as well.

[JorgePease]

We are photographers interested in the Scarlet FF35. We also want to capture motion pictures as we turn more and more of those jobs down and have personal interests in feature films.

The Scarlet FF35 with it's higher res and DR (as compared to S35) is at the high end of our budget but definitely in there ... while the Epic would not be considered. Since this camera intends to compete with DSLR's I wonder if this thread's perspective did not fully take that into account .. most or all of you are strictly film makers I believe.

That probably had some bearing in RED's strategy though I remember not too long ago when resolutions and frame rates at these prices was nothing but a pipe dream so it's funny to hear all this concerns. A good film maker will take the cheapest of these cameras and win an academy award :)

[Tim Hole]

The "I want, I want" is really frustrating when we are delivering so much, so fast, for so little. We bend over backwards for our customers. We are developing at a rapid pace when others are closing the doors or shutting off development dollars.

Have a great Holiday Season.

Jim

This is the negative of being so open with development. "Avarice is always poor" as Samuel Johnson says. But more than that I think the issue is trust. Jim and his team are a business true enough, but to be a follower you have to be anointed. Forget the autocracy of the past and have a bit of faith. Look back over the last eight months at the evolution of the Epic/Scarlet.

And while you are at it have another look at the Steven Soderberg post.

HAVE FAITH AND TRUST THAT RED ARE DEVELOPING THE QUINTESSENTIAL COMBINATION OF DIGITAL STILL AND MOTION CAMERAS...period!

[Tim Whitcomb]

I'm new and STILL excited to get my first RED ONE... the rest of this is almost as unbelievable as RED was 3 years ago... that Monstro 617 is just plain SICK! Even fully decked out with EVERY OPTION and BRAIN and SENSOR... its still priced less than SONY's TOL 1080P camera ! RU effin kidding me? RED RULES.

The ONLY thing that bothers me is Shawn Nelson (my assoc in PDX) saying he will get EPIC #27... so, does that mean new ordering is based on OLD ordering? I waited for the very reasons Jim talked about to others in this post.. I wanted to see many things get flushed out as I am NOT an early adopter of most tech... but what happened to "THe first shall be the last and the last shall be the first??!!" :)

[Rick Darge]

Why does that bother you? Early adopters threw down their cash on a non-existent product. Early adopters like Shawn were the one of the many reasons why Red is where it is today. Early adopters were the guerillas on the ground. I love the fact that your serial number stays with you and lets you in line early. It's only fair. It's like signing up for classes at college. The more units you already have, the earlier you are allowed to register and pick the classes you want. Seniority.

[Mike Peters]

I think the thinking and experimentation thats gone into developing the Red DSMC cameras is very sound and impressive from an engineering and artistic point of view.

Especially being able to customise the camera setup to suit.

I can hardly wait to get my hands on one.

I'm continually amazed that no other big camera company got here first.