Versitile Electronic ND filter.. possible?

[Nook Kim]

Hey guys,
I was just thinking of this while I was getting some b-rolls in Puerto Rico.
Say there is ND filters generated electronically in camera that can be
transformed to any shape that I want it to be so that I can bring down
only a part of the frame that is blowing out. You know, ND grad's are
great, but when not the whole half of the frame is blown out, I wish
I could manipulate the shape of ND grad's... to whatever I want it to be.
What to you guys think?



Nook

[Chris Forbes]

Go one better instead of shape do it by luminance values but you'd have to have a wider dynamic rage for that nvm

[Priyesh P.]

there is an autralian company with exactely that technology. unfortunately i don´t remember the name...

[damonbots]

There's an idea for the RED ONE... variable luminance masks. The first camera with built in photoshopping tools. Sweet

[Cail Young]

Kodak does this with their PictureMagic 35mm stills film development tools; my understanding is that there is an LCD panel or similar well clear of the focal plane of the printing lens system that allows for density adjustment (dodge and burn, to use darkroom terms) on arbitrary spatial areas.

[Brook Willard]

You know that electro-translucent glass? The stuff that can go from clear to smoked just by passing a certain current through it? How cool would it be if that could be changed to a neutral density tint... just turn a dial on the side of your mattebox and select your light transmission!

Oh man, I should patent that...

[CVB]

If you could live with a polarizer in addition to the ND theres always this...
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html
If the two halves were motorized and calibrated you could have a little screen on the side of the matte box that lets you punch in whatever value you like. Because the vari-ND ends up being polarized, you could have another setting that moves both of the panes at the same time to adjust the polarization. Might be a fun weekend project when I get some time :)

[Nook Kim]

There's an idea for the RED ONE... variable luminance masks. The first camera with built in photoshopping tools. Sweet

I hadn't heard this before, and this is pretty exciting. Does anyone know
how much of control over the shape of the masks we will have?





Nook

[David Mullen ASC]

That idea would only work well if you have a much wider dynamic range to mask areas down to. It's not going to help avoid ND or ND grad filters for bringing down excessively bright areas into a range that the camera can handle. Luminence keys and mattes have to work with information that the camera already captured.

Besides, doing oddly-shaped "Power Window" type effects out in the field is not a particularly efficient use of shooting time.

[Brook Willard]

While I guess that luminance mattes would work if there was some way to automate them, that additional latitude you gain probably wouldn't be all that usable. It'd just be mushing a contrasty image into a lower-contrast image, resulting in increased apparent quantization if contrast is reapplied in post.

[David Mullen ASC]

While I guess that luminance mattes would work if there was some way to automate them, that additional latitude you gain probably wouldn't be all that usable.

Sounds a little like Auto Knee...

[Brook Willard]

Bingo. Then you're just hosing yourself... locking yourself into a "look" and losing data in the process. Not to mention the trickier compression...

[Alexander Black]

Heh, would rather have a camera with more dynamic range than the human eye... then you can pick what you want to see ;)

[Rob Lohman]

I hadn't heard this before, and this is pretty exciting. Does anyone know how much of control over the shape of the masks we will have?

This is *NOT* in the camera! It's a "would be sweet to have" discussion!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

No tracking tools in real time... I give this idea a 'Meh' out of 'meh'. If you want a brighter bit... why not just put a light on it?

[damonbots]

That idea would only work well if you have a much wider dynamic range to mask areas down to. It's not going to help avoid ND or ND grad filters for bringing down excessively bright areas into a range that the camera can handle. Luminence keys and mattes have to work with information that the camera already captured.

Besides, doing oddly-shaped "Power Window" type effects out in the field is not a particularly efficient use of shooting time.

Much agreed. Hopefully the new camera components will squeak out another stop. Any improvement over what the camera is capable of now is just frosting on the cake.

[Stephen Williams]

Much agreed. Hopefully the new camera components will squeak out another stop. Any improvement over what the camera is capable of now is just frosting on the cake.

Hi,

It's already claimed to be 11.3 stops, fairly sure the limit is 12 stops working with 12bit, now if they went to 16bit......

Stephen

[Nook Kim]

It's not going to help avoid ND or ND grad filters for bringing down excessively bright areas into a range that the camera can handle. Luminence keys and mattes have to work with information that the camera already captured.

Besides, doing oddly-shaped "Power Window" type effects out in the field is not a particularly efficient use of shooting time.

I see your point, David. So there's not an easy way or possible way to
mimic ND filters electronically? Once someone figure this out, shaping
the filter to whatever I need would be a breeze.


Nook

[Nook Kim]

This is *NOT* in the camera! It's a "would be sweet to have" discussion!

Sorry Rob, I misinterpreted the message with too much excitement. I know
even without all those wish list that we throw at you guys, the camera is
already packed with so many things that I couldn't wish for. Thanks for doing
a good job.


Nook

[David Mullen ASC]

I see your point, David. So there's not an easy way or possible way to
mimic ND filters electronically? Once someone figure this out, shaping
the filter to whatever I need would be a breeze.


For it to be as effective as an ND or ND grad, it would have to cut the light before it hits the sensor, to bring the level down to a range that the sensor can handle.

So one would have to design some sort of electronic "filter" in front of the sensor that could darken itself in selectable areas, almost like two polas rotating in front of each other might (but that approach can't be restricted to select areas). Maybe something like the polarizing chips used in LCD projectors could be adapted. But I suspect if you could make such a device, it would be hard to fit between the lens and the sensor, not with the OLPF and the infrared filter to fit in there as well (unless this fictional device did that function as well.) At that point, it would be easier just to put an ND filter wheel in there like an ENG camera, although that would only give you an overall ND effect, not an ND grad effect.

I suppose a crude, low-tech version of this internal ND grad idea would be to have an internal filter wheel that has partial ND, covering only the top third or bottom third, or right or left side, etc. of the frame.

[Policar]

For it to be as effective as an ND or ND grad, it would have to cut the light before it hits the sensor, to bring the level down to a range that the sensor can handle.

So one would have to design some sort of electronic "filter" in front of the sensor that could darken itself in selectable areas, almost like two polas rotating in front of each other might (but that approach can't be restricted to select areas). Maybe something like the polarizing chips used in LCD projectors could be adapted. But I suspect if you could make such a device, it would be hard to fit between the lens and the sensor, not with the OLPF and the infrared filter to fit in there as well (unless this fictional device did that function as well.) At that point, it would be easier just to put an ND filter wheel in there like an ENG camera, although that would only give you an overall ND effect, not an ND grad effect.

I suppose a crude, low-tech version of this internal ND grad idea would be to have an internal filter wheel that has partial ND, covering only the top third or bottom third, or right or left side, etc. of the frame.

A couple interesting ideas people have had:

A sensor that not only measures the charge received at a given photosite but also (if the photosite reaches 100%) the time it takes to reach that value.

A program to shoot at 48fps, but the first frame is exposed for 1/48th of a second and the latter frame is exposed for 1/500th (give or take) to capure the highlight values. Assuming there's not too much motion blur, the two frames can be combined (and finessed) to emulate HDR.

Another brilliant product that someone mentioned (but no one can find the link for) is this intermediate sensor that uses photosites that indivually get brighter or darker based on the amount of light that hits them...so it optically (sort of) increases dynamic range in a pretty high-resolution grid. Not sure where it rests in the optical path, though...

Of course, there's always just lighting well and not shooting at 12 noon!

[Nook Kim]

Maybe something like the polarizing chips used in LCD projectors could be adapted. But I suspect if you could make such a device, it would be hard to fit between the lens and the sensor, not with the OLPF and the infrared filter to fit in there as well (unless this fictional device did that function as well.) At that point, it would be easier just to put an ND filter wheel in there like an ENG camera, although that would only give you an overall ND effect, not an ND grad effect.

I suppose a crude, low-tech version of this internal ND grad idea would be to have an internal filter wheel that has partial ND, covering only the top third or bottom third, or right or left side, etc. of the frame.

Some great high tech idea that you brought up, David. Like you mentioned,
I just don't see Red guys will go that crazy for ND filters at this late of the
game. But, one can always wish for, right? :greedy:


Nook

[jewilhel]

Hey Guys,

This electronic ND filter already exists and is called "LiveLens", which could give the RED camera 4-6 extra stops of latitude when activated. Sounds amazing except that it's still in development at the moment, but so is the RED. =) Maybe Live Technologies could partner up with RED to bring this smart filter to the RED community. Here is the link:

http://www.livetechnologies.com.au/

[Policar]

Hey Guys,

This electronic ND filter already exists and is called "LiveLens", which could give the RED camera 4-6 extra stops of latitude when activated. Sounds amazing except that it's still in development at the moment, but so is the RED. =) Maybe Live Technologies could partner up with RED to bring this smart filter to the RED community. Here is the link:

http://www.livetechnologies.com.au/

Yes! That's the link for which we were looking.

Thanks.

[David Mullen ASC]

Wow, it sounds almost exactly what I was imagining, though it doesn't look like it would fit inside the standard gap between the back of a PL-mount lens and the sensor/filters - it's more of a lens relay device.

[Policar]

Yeah, from the looks of it it should invert the image like a 35mm adapter, which I suppose makes sense since anywhere else (save on top of the sensor) it would be out of focus and fuzzy.

It might make the ultimate ground glass, though! Only one stop of light loss and extra dynamic range, to boot. Of course, it remains to be seen if the resolution of the resultant image is limited to the resolution of the device--or if it creates pixellation or other artifacts.

[JD Holloway]

Deleted...just figured it out

[Terry Delahunt]

Hey Guys,

This electronic ND filter already exists and is called "LiveLens", which could give the RED camera 4-6 extra stops of latitude when activated. Sounds amazing except that it's still in development at the moment, but so is the RED. =) Maybe Live Technologies could partner up with RED to bring this smart filter to the RED community. Here is the link:

http://www.livetechnologies.com.au/

Yes jewilhel, when I came across LiveLens, I thought exactly the same thing and wrote to RED about it. Sounds like they would make an excellent combination.

[David Mullen ASC]

My questions would be: (1) does it cause any loss of sharpness; and (2) is the response time fast enough? You'd want the ND effect to be absolutely immediate, if not timed to the closed shutter cycle so it can respond before the shutter is open -- you don't want to pan the camera off of a bright window and see a brief afterimage of the highlights as a darkened cutout pattern, nor see it kick-in when you pan to a bright background.

The demo makes it seem more useful for lock-offs and still photos.

[Brook Willard]

I wonder if any decent tests have been performed with this device? Their website leaves much to be desired.

David, I share your same concerns. I'm going to continue searching for tests with the unit.

That said, even if it worked "perfectly," I question the usability of its increased dynamic range in a color timing situation.

[Nook Kim]

Hey Guys,

This electronic ND filter already exists and is called "LiveLens", which could give the RED camera 4-6 extra stops of latitude when activated. Sounds amazing except that it's still in development at the moment, but so is the RED. =) Maybe Live Technologies could partner up with RED to bring this smart filter to the RED community. Here is the link:

http://www.livetechnologies.com.au/

Great find, jewilhel!
As much as I love the idea and what they're doing, my concerns begin
as I see an adaptor. I have some negative things about adaptors in
general. Yet, I love what they're doing and wonder if Red team could
further develop it to fit into one of their camera versions in the future.
Again, thanks for the info.


Nook

[Nook Kim]

Yeah, from the looks of it it should invert the image like a 35mm adapter, which I suppose makes sense since anywhere else (save on top of the sensor) it would be out of focus and fuzzy.

This just made me wonder if Red camera has image flip function. If not,
the monitor or viewfinder might? Although, I'm not intended to use
any adaptors or anything, yet, who knows what odd things I might attempt
to do. Of course there are a few other reasons we can use this function
for as you can guess.


Nook

[Terry Delahunt]

My questions would be: (1) does it cause any loss of sharpness; and (2) is the response time fast enough? You'd want the ND effect to be absolutely immediate, if not timed to the closed shutter cycle so it can respond before the shutter is open -- you don't want to pan the camera off of a bright window and see a brief afterimage of the highlights as a darkened cutout pattern, nor see it kick-in when you pan to a bright background.

The demo makes it seem more useful for lock-offs and still photos.

Hi David and co,
I have made contact with 'LiveLens' - Live Technologies. They are based here in Perth, WA and if you like, I'm happy to put your questions to them (and any others???..Any suggestions from the group?).

Please send me your suggestions and I'll try and get some answers.

[Ace]

The Livelens looks clever. Definately has an application with RED.

And as for the groundglass, What groundglass? Its using basically a filter made up of thousands of pixels which are individually controlled to control the intake of light. Remember the discussons everyone had a few months ago about what "if" REDS sensor could control each pixel exposure individually to achieve better DR? Well this is it. What if this came as an added layer to the mysterium?

Also would be a complimentary accessory to the REDONE imo. Red should put this company on their to do list.

[Ace]

My questions would be: (1) does it cause any loss of sharpness; and (2) is the response time fast enough? You'd want the ND effect to be absolutely immediate, if not timed to the closed shutter cycle so it can respond before the shutter is open -- you don't want to pan the camera off of a bright window and see a brief afterimage of the highlights as a darkened cutout pattern, nor see it kick-in when you pan to a bright background.

The demo makes it seem more useful for lock-offs and still photos.

The exciting thing about this technology is that the latency for liquid crystal technology has dropped far below the framerate of what you would shoot at. Only 2 years ago LCD's were at 100ms average (realistically.. even though they are marketed at 50 and 20). Right now were seeing 4 and 8ms.. So.. Im definately going to be interrogating them.

[Policar]

The Livelens looks clever. Definately has an application with RED.

And as for the groundglass, What groundglass? Its using basically a filter made up of thousands of pixels which are individually controlled to control the intake of light. Remember the discussons everyone had a few months ago about what "if" REDS sensor could control each pixel exposure individually to achieve better DR? Well this is it. What if this came as an added layer to the mysterium?

Also would be a complimentary accessory to the REDONE imo. Red should put this company on their to do list.

Where it is in the optical path hints at a reimager rather than a variable ND filter, but I'm probably wrong.

[Stephen Gentle]

For it to be as effective as an ND or ND grad, it would have to cut the light before it hits the sensor, to bring the level down to a range that the sensor can handle.

I thought that was what they were talking about...

Like an LCD in front of the sensor that you could darken...