Anyone editing red with cineform on a pc

[Sean007Davis]

:detective2: So after months of going between the Si 2K and the Red I went with the RED(primarily because I'd have an easier time renting it out, even though it's post workflow is my idea of an absolute nightmare).

My deciesion was based solely on the fact that I hope to be able to edit the RED footage by converting it to the Cineform Codec. I'm planing on taking delivery oan my RED in January. i've been looking into building a PC or two to Edit with, the new Intel core-i7 looks quite impressive.

i want to know if there is anyone out there who is actually cutting RED using the cineform conversion?
I'd like to get an idea what the suitable PC spect woulod be? and What your workflow is?

I realy do Not need to cut 4K since my output will be 2k and Blu-ray DVD's.

I'm also trying to figure out if after I convert the R3D to cineform I can use iridas speedgrade on my footage.
Thanks in advance:construction:

p.s. A MAC is not an option the only time I touch a Mac is when using pro-tools in the studio...LOL

[Joyfool]

:detective2: So after months of going between the Si 2K and the Red I went with the RED(primarily because I'd have an easier time renting it out, even though it's post workflow is my idea of an absolute nightmare).

My deciesion was based solely on the fact that I hope to be able to edit the RED footage by converting it to the Cineform Codec. I'm planing on taking delivery oan my RED in January. i've been looking into building a PC or two to Edit with, the new Intel core-i7 looks quite impressive.

i want to know if there is anyone out there who is actually cutting RED using the cineform conversion?
I'd like to get an idea what the suitable PC spect woulod be? and What your workflow is?

I realy do Not need to cut 4K since my output will be 2k and Blu-ray DVD's.

I'm also trying to figure out if after I convert the R3D to cineform I can use iridas speedgrade on my footage.
Thanks in advance:construction:

p.s. A MAC is not an option the only time I touch a Mac is when using pro-tools in the studio...LOL

The workflow you describe is exactly what I've done using the trial version of Cineform. Yes you will certainly be able to use speedgrade. In fact the 3D LUTS used by cineform obey the .LOOK structure defined by Iridas.
Furthermore the intel I7 was recently singled out by David Newman as outperforming an 8 Core processor for the Cineform workflow. I think you're in good shape.

The only issue I foresee is if you intend on working with R3D files exclusively, you might find the Cineform workflow obsolete once the Adobe plugin is released by RED. However, if you intend on working with other PC based NLE's and/or other camera formats, Cinefrom is a great unifier.

[donatello b]

for my own projects ...
i use to edit cineform .. but there was a mac in the flow ..
friends mac was here for several months ... so went 2k proxy into FCP ... if the clip needed CC i would take the R3D clip into Red Alert and create a new proxy then take the proxy back to FCP and render out to 2k cineform ( it does render out with audio) ...
then to PC - 2k cineform into sony Vegas - edit - then would crop to HD ( no scaling) for final out to blu ray ....
the mac went away in early aug and i currently have no workflow ... have CS34/CS4 waiting here ....
have a quad core (2.66) PC but it just takes too long to render out R3D clips to anything (& no audio)in Redcine ( i beleive audio was just recently enabled in RC but the current verson doesn't work on my computer) ... friend just left his mac here over the weekend ( it will be here for few monhs) so i may go back to using 2 computers or ??

[Sean007Davis]

Thanks guys very helpfull responses keep them comming.
Also yes I at this pointintend to keep things strictly cineform. i fell in love with the codec and workflow when i got to work with the si 2k in south africa last year (LoL..Dunno if I should be talking about the Si on a RED forum, but i think REd think they it's a good concept too, since most of the new RED brain cameras look like the Si 2k mini)
SO I'll be using Prospect or Neo 4k exclusively in CS4
I know about Adobes pending RED support but I belive Cineform will always be more efficient, as it already is with converting all my other codecs.

[David Newman]

The workflow you describe is exactly what I've done using the trial version of Cineform. Yes you will certainly be able to use speedgrade. In fact the 3D LUTS used by cineform obey the .LOOK structure defined by Iridas.
Furthermore the intel I7 was recently singled out by David Newman as outperforming an 8 Core processor for the Cineform workflow. I think you're in good shape.

The only issue I foresee is if you intend on working with R3D files exclusively, you might find the Cineform workflow obsolete once the Adobe plugin is released by RED. However, if you intend on working with other PC based NLE's and/or other camera formats, Cinefrom is a great unifier.

No danger of obsolence, the CineForm post workflow will always be more flexible and signicantly faster for editing, as post is what it is designed for. All camera formats (HDV to REDCODE) have decoder performance issues and render to generation issues (Red doesn't have a render to codec -- CineForm is the best choice even when using the Red Adobe plugin -- so we look forward to it release.)

The are many redusers running Prospect 4K and NEO 4K, that are successfully producing content, so there are not here as often as they used to be. :)

[Sean007Davis]

thanks David
I bought prospect at the end of the summer and I'll need to upgrade to 4k for my RED, any hook ups??? LOL

I read your Blog on the i7 so Im probably just going to buy one of the high end gaming Pc's and change the video card and use it as an interim PC untill I can find a mother board that will take 2 of the core-i7 processors.

I'm also trying to create an all inhouse post pipe line, any advice or sudgestions ware welcome.

I shoot a lot of overcranking and undercranking and ramping so I'll probably be shooting my RED more in 2k for the 120fps etc than anything else:construction:

[David Wilson]

:detective2: So after months of going between the Si 2K and the Red I went with the RED(primarily because I'd have an easier time renting it out, even though it's post workflow is my idea of an absolute nightmare).

My deciesion was based solely on the fact that I hope to be able to edit the RED footage by converting it to the Cineform Codec. I'm planing on taking delivery oan my RED in January. i've been looking into building a PC or two to Edit with, the new Intel core-i7 looks quite impressive.

i want to know if there is anyone out there who is actually cutting RED using the cineform conversion?
I'd like to get an idea what the suitable PC spect woulod be? and What your workflow is?

I realy do Not need to cut 4K since my output will be 2k and Blu-ray DVD's.

I'm also trying to figure out if after I convert the R3D to cineform I can use iridas speedgrade on my footage.
Thanks in advance:construction:

p.s. A MAC is not an option the only time I touch a Mac is when using pro-tools in the studio...LOL

Sean007Davis,

We have been shooting R1 and converting to CineForm since it became possible a number of months ago. We're using Premiere and After Efx CS3 in that CS4 is not yet integrated with CineForm but should soon be. We also use SpeedGrade on Set to establish looks and the LUTs are readable in Premiere. We typically output 2K as well.

David N has written a number of scripts that make the CineForm conversion very fast and easy. The enitre workflow has worked great for us and we're not using Mac's in our workflow either.

If you poke about a bit in http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18065 you will find computer specs and the like but (as you know) part of the beauty of CineForm is the ability to get away with not quite so much horsepower.

Hope this helps.

David

[Joyfool]

No danger of obsolence, the CineForm post workflow will always be more flexible and signicantly faster for editing, as post is what it is designed for. All camera formats (HDV to REDCODE) have decoder performance issues and render to generation issues (Red doesn't have a render to codec -- CineForm is the best choice even when using the Red Adobe plugin -- so we look forward to it release.)

The are many redusers running Prospect 4K and NEO 4K, that are successfully producing content, so there are not here as often as they used to be. :)

David,

Can you expand on your point. I have to say I love Cineform's elegance w/ regards to the color accurate express files and metadata/LUT manipulation. It definitely stands alone. But what exactly is a "render to codec"??? Are you referring to an output codec for filmout? or Codec to perform the edit?

What are the benefits for using Cineform Prospect/NEO 4k for those who expect to edit R3D's exclusively in CS4? What do I get for the $2000 that won't be available natively in CS4/AE using the plugin (assuming the plugin will be equiped with a "RED room" to access the camera borne metadata).

To be honest I probably will buy Prospect but I'm holding off until the plugin is made available to compare ($2000 is sizable expense)

thanks

[Hans von Sonntag]

I am using both, Cineform an SpeedGrade. Partly on the Mac, partly on Windows. Personally I'm platform agnostic. Both platform have their pros and cons. I try to avoid the cons.

Cineform's codec translates all necessary information (file name, REEL & TC) from the R3D into any quality level/size RGB/YUV file one might need. ReMaster on the Mac, as well as the aquivalent windows tools, work as assumed. Cineform's integration of the Red SDK works very well, no tedious toggeling with ISO settings and WB. All available RAW information is kept. I did some research on real life projects and can fully confirm Cineforms statements in this regard.

Currently SpeedGrade delivers not full RT perfomance when using Cineform files. However they recieved a SDK and are implementing Cineform in their fabulous RT-Engine. As so often Windows will be the first platform to be supported in this regard, due in February 2009.

I'm a long-time SpeedGrade and a new Cineform user. With both tools there is a complete roundtrip easily possible using FCP or/and Premier Pro utilizing both platforms. I'm using FCP for editing (obviously on the Mac), and PremierPro for editing and onlining. SpeedGrade in between, conforms either form R3Ds or Cineform files and renders out new clips that can be brought back into your NLE.

Now you've got the choice:

1. Edit with FCP

2. Edit with Premier Pro (both Platforms)

3. Conform and grade with SpeedGrade (both Platforms)

4. Roundtrip to the NLE/Platform of your choice using FCP, FCP XML or EDL within PremierPro (both platforms) and replace your media with the freshly graded clips.

I'm only talking about workflows I used in real life projects.

Red's workflow issues are not solved yet. But when Avid and Discreet are in the boat we are there.

Hans

PS: DPX are still a great format for many things, but I use it now only for archiving masters or film-out. Cineform is a great little company but I'm not sure wether they are still around - say in 20 years - but DPX will (probably). Nothing is sure, though.

[David Newman]

"Render to Codec", when you export elements from you a composite, using a non-Adobe tool or output a reel of your project for HDSDI delivery, you need some quality format to store the data within. If you never leave the Adobe suite and happy will the REDCODE decoder performance, you can do OK (not great) without any render to codec, but having a fast 4:4:4 compressed DI codec at hand makes things a lot easy.

[David Newman]

PS: DPX are still a great format for many things, but I use it now only for archiving masters or film-out. Cineform is a great little company but I'm not sure wether they are still around - say in 20 years - but DPX will (probably). Nothing is sure, though.

We are working with a lot of archive markets, and recontruction after 20 years is a concern for all compressed formats, yet compression cost saving are huge. We have a solution for this, so stay tuned.

[Hans von Sonntag]

We are working with a lot of archive markets, and recontruction after 20 years is a concern for all compressed formats, yet compression cost saving are huge. We have a solution for this, so stay tuned.

David,

I stay tuned anyway. But yes, recontruction of legacy compression formats sometime in the future is of a vital concern. It's going to be interesting what you guys are developing in this regard.

I'm now in the 5th year of a documentary that will go on for another 5 years. I begun with 1080p uncompressed QT which eat over 4TB and switched to ProRes which is much more handy but unfortunately not a high quality online codec and now Cineform.

In 6 years I will have to redigitize all the footage that was shot in the first 4 years because we will end up with a feature-lenght film that has to be reedited. I really hope that Cineform will stay long with us.

Hans