Cage Update

[Jarred Land]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178646216.jpg

[Daniel Gourley]

REALLY NICE!!!!

So 2 side handles no 4 corners!?!?!?

[Jarred Land]

those side handles can be put on the front and back to give you corners if you want...

[Daniel Gourley]

Does it slide on the top rails?!?!?

Very Cool should bring some options for balanceing it and fitting accessories and such...

[Jason Francois]

I like it a lot. Nice softening of style. Looks a bit easier to handle.

For some reason it looks even more professional.

[Daniel Gourley]

Looks like mounting holes at the top as well....

THANK YOU RED TEAM!

[Todd Anderson]

Hi Jarred,

Is the Red-Rail configuration staying the same? And what was the main reasoning for the change in the Cage configuration? Better balance and access? And lastly, is the price staying same for the Cage / Red One Premium Production Package at this point?

Thanks,
Todd

[TimothyD]

I like it. Too bad I can only afford the basic package, but that is probably all I need anyway. I do like the new design though.

Tim

[Joe Aurili]

Looks like if you had a shoulderpad you could use it just like the red-rail.

[Andrew Benz]

Hi Jarred,

I see where you guys are going with this adjustment. Not only do I like it better I feel that as an op., I can complete smoother moves with less transferable vibration (tripod). The adjustable handles help me with various positions and opposing forces for better control. Good job Matt, Jarred and the rest of Red Team.

[roryhinds]

Does this mean we are months away from shipping units if your still messing with the design?

[Greg M]

Very nice!
I like this look much more....GREAT WORK.

[Jarred Land]

Does this mean we are months away from shipping units if your still messing with the design?

What makes us special, and allows us to take feedback from NAB and the Professional shoots we have put cameras in, is that we have the ability to change things and update things till the very last moment.

[Greg M]

What makes us special, and allows us to take feedback from NAB and the Professional shoots we have put cameras in, is that we have the ability to change things and update things till the very last moment.

American ingenuity at its finest...wish all companies "got it" like Red.

[Finner]

The other handles were bolted right to the camera. I see potential problems with these new handles because they look like body handles and if a grip is passing the camera or carring it up a ladder the handle looks like it could spin or worst case pull off. Don't get me wrong I think the design looks great. Its just if a production camera is going to have a handles they better be bomber because that is the first thing people will grab. By the way these handles fit on I would be hesitant to have them on my camera. Not for me or my camera team but others that deal with the camera.

[roryhinds]

Thats marvelous.

I guess with the big question mark over delivery I'm a bit jumpy.

Not having a date to work with is causing a lot of friction.

[Michael Ragen]

This design would allow you to use the supergrip as one or both of the sidehandles correct? I would also like to know how this effects the production packs.

[Steve Gibby]

I like the single-wing locking nuts...looks like changing configurations in a mobile environment will be easy. Simple care to make sure the nuts are tight should prevent loose handle/drop problems. Handles can be placed anywhere on the upper rods. I like the flexibility and function of this new cage concept.

[Columbus]

Is this a redrail or a redcage re-design?, if it's a redcage then I much prefer the old design, gives the camera a bigger presense and much more protection, I really liked what I saw from the video demo at nab.

[wshultz]

So for a shoulder mount config would you move that cross bar assembly to the lower rails?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Very cool. Please continue in this right way to change all what you think that could be good for a final camera shipping specification.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Looks much better, cleaner and lighter! No wonder the parts were not listed separately for sale. I'm glad Jim and company are still listening to us. I was loosing a bit of hope with no replies to my "Diet Red" campaign other than "you shoud hit the Gym" from some fellow RED Bodybuilders. ;-)

[HD Hildebrand]

I like it. Though it does not look as uber-designed as the last renders (which I did like), it does look less costly to manufacture and potentially quicker to adjust in the field.

My question: With the handles on the upper rods, will that interfear with the natural positioning of the EVF for comfortable shoulder mounting?

[Ken Willinger]

I don't know why you would have the handles on the side of the body for any operational set up. Maybe it protects the body? For shoulder mounted work you'd want them out front and below the camera. I like the rails on the top and bottom though and what seems to be a lower profile than before.

[Michael Schrengohst]

So what is the difference between the render and
RED ONE BASIC PRODUCTION PACK
I just ordered the RED ONE BASIC PRODUCTION PACK.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Very nice. Me likey.

[miskamagic]

This looks great for a more lightweight ENG setup, but I have to agree with Finner and some other posters that I would prefer the original cage. I hope that it will still be available for purchase in addition to this new model. Being anchored at only one end and the use of thumbscrews looks like no matter how sturdy it is, the torque in certain situations could take it out. Not to mention a thumbscrew being accidentally left unlocked and then someone else picking it up.

The cage seemed to be overkill to me at first, but after seeing the NAB demo video, it suddenly made a lot of sense. The way you could grab it from any side, that its very solidly bolted to all corners of the camera body and best of all, it would protect the body and anything plugged into the side of it from sideswipes, falls, etc. - a really rugged design.

-m

[Rob Lohman]

Looks like mounting holes at the top as well....

THANK YOU RED TEAM!

There were always mounting holes available at the top :)

[Craig Schober]

The cage seemed to be overkill to me at first, but after seeing the NAB demo video, it suddenly made a lot of sense. The way you could grab it from any side, that its very solidly bolted to all corners of the camera body and best of all, it would protect the body and anything plugged into the side of it from sideswipes, falls, etc. - a really rugged design.

-m

that's the same way i feel too. i liked the way you could "roll" the camera on its cage to get at every side. now it doesn't look so nice and sturdy. although it is lighter but that seems to just bring this and the basic production package closer making the decision more confusing to me.

[Shawn Bannon]

what are the rods made out of now? and will the price be changed? and will there still be 2 options?

[Alexander Nikishin]

Agreed, I'm not a fan of the new design either....

I really don't see what the purpose of the design change is besides lightening the setup, which can be done anyway by removing 2 of the handles...

Having the handles mounted at the corners of the camera gave the setup more solidity and ruggedness.

Aesthetically speaking, the camera looked a lot better with the previous cage design as well.

Please explain the thought process on the design change?

[Thom Steinhoff]

What makes us special, and allows us to take feedback from NAB and the Professional shoots we have put cameras in, is that we have the ability to change things and update things till the very last moment.

One of the more interesting conversations I overheard at NAB while gawking at the EVF was concern over the viewfinder potentially not being locked at the same horizon line as the camera could cause confusion and misalignment and there was discussion of a level outside of the viewfinder or in the view of the viewfinder. I'm pretty sure the conversation was between you, Jarred, and a 20+ year shooter, but a could be wrong.

Since I've never shot with a camera that didn't have the viewfinder fixed to the side with only tilt up and tilt down, I wonder from others if a float anywhere EVF mounting rod is an issue and if we should consider a much less sophisticated EVF to rail mount that would allow you to mount it front/back/left/right but with a locked axis?

[Keith Nealy]

I agree with Finner. After seeing the NAB demo video of the old cage I was sold. At first I thought th cage was overkill but then in the video I saw the practicality and flexibility of it. Maybe this design should be offered as another option and keep the original cage as well. The more the merrier.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Here is the pre-nab design.....
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/8638/battleshiphl3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
It seems that all that has been done with the new design is that the dual mounted handles have been replaced with the original front end grip handles...please no.

[Michael Ragen]

I like the new design, but I hear what people are saying about the handles not being mounted to both rails. Why not just keep the new side grips, but offer a small non-rotating connector piece to connect them to the bottom rails as well if people desire that. I just like the idea of having one set of grips that I can move from the upper to lower rails for shooting fig rig or shoulder style while keeping down the weight by not having extra handles. I also want to use the supergrip in this new cage config and the old design didn't seem to allow for that.

[Mardi_Gras]

I don't care about the cage design or redesign... I just want some news on my Red... :sad:

[Zk2007]

I like the old four grips design better. The one that was shown on that NAB video demo. Looks more solid and more useful.

[Alexander Nikishin]

what are the rods made out of now?

I think they may have decided against the carbon fiber rods due to the inconsistency of cf rods.

I've owned several and it seems that there is always some sanding required in order to get the diameter just right.

Never the less, if carbon fiber is what you want, just have them special ordered from a shop and work on the diameter at your own risk.

[Brook Willard]

Looks a lot lighter... I like it.

I also like that there are mounting points directly on the upper mount for the rails.

Will the "cage" handles now fit on the rails, or will they be of the front handgrip design that's rendered here?

Is the upper portion of the rail interface [the part that screws to the camera] two pieces now? Or is it just a lot lower profile?

[Finner]

concern over the viewfinder potentially not being locked at the same horizon line as the camera could cause confusion and misalignment and there was discussion of a level outside of the viewfinder or in the view of the viewfinder.
Since I've never shot with a camera that didn't have the viewfinder fixed to the side with only tilt up and tilt down, I wonder from others if a float anywhere EVF mounting rod is an issue and if we should consider a much less sophisticated EVF to rail mount that would allow you to mount it front/back/left/right but with a locked axis?

This is very interesting. I had not thought about this. I would think a small glow level bubble on top of the EVF would help or maybe even a horizon line level inside the EVF along the bottom?

Thinking more about this a level bubble on the outside top of the EVF would probably be the best place for it.

[Phillip Hudson]

I was considering buying the 4 handled corner cage for my other cameras as well (if they'd fit), but now... My vote is for the 4 cornered handles that attach to both top and bottom rods.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I will vote for a new cage design. It has already 15mm rods included with a hand and side grip handle, plus a base plate and shoulder pad / tripod plate adaptor. GREAT. That's all we need for the beginning. For sure the price should be in between the older options like a basic and premium pack about $1,950. And I would call it: RED ONE STANDARD PRODUCTION PACK.

[Jarred Land]

The other handles were bolted right to the camera. I see potential problems with these new handles because they look like body handles and if a grip is passing the camera or carring it up a ladder the handle looks like it could spin or worst case pull off.

these are side handles (not really for lugging up ladders).. you guys havnt seen the top handle yet....

[Alexander Nikishin]

Will the "cage" handles now fit on the rails, or will they be of the front handgrip design that's rendered here?


You're looking at the cage handles, they're basically losing the cage handles and using the handgrips instead.

[Brook Willard]

Got it.

I wonder if the top handle has changed significantly...

[Priyesh P.]

I like the new design very much.
But I second Finner´s concern about people accidently grabbing the camera by those side-grips, it´s really going to be much (much!) safer if they are fixed between the top and lower rails.

[Priyesh P.]

Got it.

I wonder if the top handle has changed significantly...

The Red top handle looks giantic compared to the tiny SR-2 or SR-3 handles but that´s not a bad thing.

[Brook Willard]

Given... but I'd personally prefer some mandrel-bent tubing over a 1lb hunk 'o aluminum. ;)

[Moir]

Is it my imagination, or has a protrusion on the base plate been removed so that the bottom rails can now consist of a single pair of long rods supporting both battery / Red Drive and lens, rahter than 2 shorter pairs. If correct, ought to make for a more solid mount, no?

[Alexander Nikishin]

The Red top handle looks giantic compared to the tiny SR-2 or SR-3 handles but that´s not a bad thing.

I thought the same thing...the top handle if anything should be shaved a bit for weight reduction. It was a bit too large IMO as well.

[Jarred Land]

Is it my imagination, or has a protrusion on the base plate been removed so that the bottom rails can now consist of a single pair of long rods supporting both battery / Red Drive and lens, rahter than 2 shorter pairs. If correct, ought to make for a more solid mount, no?

i was waiting till someone spotted that...

[Michael Mann]

How's about the weight of the new cage?

[Finner]

these are side handles (not really for lugging up ladders).. you guys havnt seen the top handle yet....

I totally get you here Jarred and very very few qualified camera AC' and OPs would look at it as a handle. All I am saying is as much as you warn grips or other crew that "those things that look like handles are not handles" you will inevitably have one of those crazy days and miss a rigging grip useing it as a handle. Hell I have seen many times a "qualified rigging grip" trying to use view finders as handles. I guarantee that if you put something on the camera that looks like a handle but is not structurally strong enough to carry up ladders or pass from dock to boat it will sometimes end with smashed cameras and boat anchors.

[David Cubbage]

As an ex-engineer, I am amazed at the level of development work you guys are still carrying out on the Red. I take my hat off to you! By the time I get my ordered Red, I ordered while you were all at Nab, who knows what what configurations will be available?

Amazed Brit!

[luis bustamante]

from what I see on the new render and from comparing it with what we saw at NAB plus the take-apart illustration on the brochure, I think the changes are the following:

1. Red Rail top & base plate modified (no longer accepts Red Side Handles and seriously streamlined).
2. Red Rail Mount replaced by Red Side Handle Bracket.
3. Red Side Handle discarded and replaced by Red Grip handle.

So basically this elimates 2 pieces and simplifies the design. I'm all for it.

The only thing I'm missing is the option to exchange the grip in the side handles for a mount holes bar. I don't see feasible doing something similar with the Red Grip Handle (replacing the grip in the Red Grip Handle to add the mount holes bar mentioned above) so I think we lost the option to have a cage full of mounting hoels. Will I miss it? Not at all. So for me this is definitely the way to go. Kudos to the RED team.

BTW I scanned the brochure take-apart illustration (to send it to one of my partners), I can post it for all to see waht I'm referring to since I think it hasn't been published on the internet. Let me know if this allowed and/or legally acceptable.

cheers & keep up the good work!

[Michael Ragen]

I hope the new top handle can be a full closed upside-down "u" shaped design like an m16 handle. If its modular maybe it can also be a "t" shaped design like the previous handle for front heavy lens loads.

[Clayton Harper]

What makes us special, and allows us to take feedback from NAB and the Professional shoots we have put cameras in, is that we have the ability to change things and update things till the very last moment.

Will the design change once I have the camera at my house maybe while I'm sleeping?

[PaulClements]

The bottom single rails makes for a far better design in my opinion. More in keeping with traditional designs and I would think easier to manage than the previous design.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Is it my imagination, or has a protrusion on the base plate been removed so that the bottom rails can now consist of a single pair of long rods supporting both battery / Red Drive and lens, rahter than 2 shorter pairs. If correct, ought to make for a more solid mount, no?

I think that the idea of an independent front/back end rod setup is ideal and just as stable.

The reason I wouldn't switch over to a single rod design is to maxamize adaptability. Let's say were using the Red 18-50 for steadicam work, great the Red signle rod works just fine for that.

But, what if we decide to go with a Ageniuex Optimo or the like and need the extra length on the rods?

Purchase a whole new 30" rod? Or just swap the front end baby rod for a slightly longer one?

It just seems right having the front and back ends independent and specialized for the task. PLEEEEASE DON'T GO WITH A SINGLE ROD PLATE DESIGN RED. :help:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yes. And No.

I like that the rails can pass through as longer, solid pieces to make the whole unit more rigid. As for the handles, please tell us that the dual-mount handles and ability to 4-corner this baby with solid handles has not gone away!

[Keith Alan Morris]

Will this be just as stable as the original design?

[Alexander Nikishin]

The more I look at it the more it seems like nothing more than a dumbed down version of the previous design.

[PaulClements]

I think that the idea of an independent front/back end rod setup is ideal and just as stable.

The reason I wouldn't switch over to a single rod design is to maxamize adaptability. Let's say were using the Red 18-50 for steadicam work, great the Red signle rod works just fine for that.

But, what if we decide to go with a Ageniuex Optimo or the like and need the extra length on the rods?

Purchase a whole new 30" rod? Or just swap the front end baby rod for a slightly longer one?

It just seems right having the front and back ends independent and specialized for the task. PLEEEEASE DON'T GO WITH A SINGLE ROD PLATE DESIGN RED. :help:

What if extensions can be attached to the existing rods? In the original design the rods had end caps if I remember correctly. So you would simply attach an extension to the rod by screwing it on and be done in a matter of seconds. Far quicker than swapping out both rods. The strength of a single rod is also far greater and puts less strain on the holders

[PaulClements]

The more I look at it the more it seems like nothing more than a dumbed down version of the previous design.

It does look like more traditional designs, and it has lost a bit of the Rediness™ in it's design.

[Moir]

Good point Alexander

IIRC, the original design had a recessed "quarter pipe" behind the front rod holders that appeared from the renders to prevent torque (might be wrong on this). This seems to be gone. Will there be enough support for two pairs of rods with the current design, if using a heavy lens?

Personally I like the new design.

[Jannard]

The more I look at it the more it seems like nothing more than a dumbed down version of the previous design.

It happens to weigh 4-5 lbs less than what we showed at NAB. Much better for handheld "flying". We haven't lost many of the other configurations. This is just another possibility. The top and bottom cage system received the most weight loss.

Much of the change was initiated by suggestions we received from Peter Jackson and Mitch Amundsen.

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

RED ONE PRODUCTION PACK: Something For Everybody

http://www.red.com/skin/img/pricelist/BaseAngle-Lg.jpg
1. RED ONE BASIC PRODUCTION PACK

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178646216.jpg
2. RED ONE "STANDARD" PRODUCTION PACK

http://www.red.com/skin/img/pricelist/PremiumPackAngle-Lg.jpg
3. RED ONE PREMIUM PRODUCTION PACK

[Adrian T.]

It just seems right having the front and back ends independent and specialized for the task.

I think you can still mount independent rods on the front and back ends of the camera. Of course it would be less stable then.

I also fell in love with the NAB rig once I saw that video. I hope it's still possible to build some similar rig with the side handles in all four corners of the camera. It seemed like the perfect protection for the camera.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Nice.This solution really expands cam manipulation.
Is this replacement or another option ?

In terms of design I really liked the quad handle version. IMHO it had stronger effect, more powerfull appearance.
I also liked the perforated stripes on the camera on the old renders, which (in my opinion, again) gave more definition, personality and style to the body. I noticed before you didn't include them on the cameras at NAB, so is this final -or that's just the final machining decison left for the end?

Is the lack of carbon just a preliminary render or it won't be offfered ?
No, I'm not bitchin' so hold your spears everybody...I don't doubt in all the practical benefits of this solution, which I applaud.
I know that the balance between practicality and appearance is tricky thing.

It's great to see you guys are making improvements 'till the last moment. This reminds me of someone I know...

[Hrvoje Simic]

We haven't lost many of the other configurations. This is just another possibility. Jim

Aha...got it.

One question answered while I was typing.

[Finner]

What if extensions can be attached to the existing rods? In the original design the rods had end caps if I remember correctly. So you would simply attach an extension to the rod by screwing it on and be done in a matter of seconds. Far quicker than swapping out both rods. The strength of a single rod is also far greater and puts less strain on the holders

This is a good idea. Panavision has a "screw in" extension rod system like this and it would help keep your RED accesories kit smaller and lighter by just having a few different sizes of extension rods rather then whole rods.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm all for the 4-5lbs less! I would definitely like to see the option for handles similar to the old design that mount solid to the cage - preferably to the top and bottom rods or cage components. If I see a handle on the side of the camera, I want to assume it's 100% solid and I can lug the camera around by that handle.

This new rendering showing a lighter configuration is really nice too. I'm just hoping that the cage can still be built up into a beefy "cage" like the previous design. The possibilities opened up by being able to set the camera on its side with the 4-corner handles and not have the camera touch the ground along with a multitude of other possibilities were great.

I'm probably stressing over nothing... But I would be curious to know which of the "other configurations" have been lost.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I really want the RED ONE PREMIUM PRODUCTION PACK as demonstrated at NAB, I can´t really make out from this thread if this is a replacement, hope it isn´t.

I am always happy about options and this new design makes sense, but I gotta love the way RED ONE PREMIUM PRODUCTION PACK makes the whole RED look! (nothing wrong with looking good aye?)

[Alexander Nikishin]

It happens to weigh 4-5 lbs less than what we showed at NAB. Much better for handheld "flying". We haven't lost many of the other configurations. This is just another possibility. The top and bottom cage system received the most weight loss.

Much of the change was initiated by suggestions we received from Peter Jackson and Mitch Amundsen.

Jim

Jim, I would assume that it weighs less without all the bells and whistles now, but I honestly don't mind the weight if I'm not flying or going hand held. My O'Connor 2060 can handle that weight with ease.

The handgrips just don't seem tailor-made for the cage design. Not having the corner cage handles w/mounting points limits me to a center mounted design.

I personally would like to keep my EVF and LCD mounted on the back side handle and the front side handle, not having everything mounted out from two Red Arms from the center.

As far as going with the single rod design, again I think that is also limiting the functionality of the unit. I personally don't want to have to carry around a 30" aluminum rod with me at all times for longer lens.

I'm all for weight reduction, but not weight reduction at the cost of performance.

[Alexander Nikishin]

This is a good idea. Panavision has a "screw in" extension rod system like this and it would help keep your RED accesories kit smaller and lighter by just having a few different sizes of extension rods rather then whole rods.

But then it's bye bye carbon fiber rods no matter what.

[Mike the beginner]

I think the top part of the rail system is better thought out and designed.

Two concerns of mine would be the rods, Alexander mentioned the inconsistency of carbon fibre. Being connected to the sport fishing industry where millions of fishing rods are now made of carbon the fail rate of rods is much better than say five years ago. Generally when carbon rods fail they fail fairly soon when in use. There is no warning though! but i would doubt if two rods would fail at once so i am not unduly concerned with this. Carbon fibre rods tend to have little malleable strength so i am naturally worried about the clamping of the rods for security.

The one sided wing nuts that i see, do they screw into the rail brackets to secure. If they do what material is the screw threads made from. i dont like aluminium as it is too soft and is easility stripped when over tightened.

Delighted to hear it is so much lighter though.

Mike the beginner

[Michael Ragen]

I think this new setup could be handy for shooting low to the ground handheld with your right hand on the top handle and your left on a supergrip mounted to the upper rod. I wonder if being able to mount the supergrip on the handle when the handle is flipped 180 degrees up above the camera would be handy, kind of like a joystick for flight control. That way when shooting low your shoulders are still parallel to the ground. And I'm definitely stoked about losing 4-5 lbs. The camera does look less like a railgun though, but that could be a good thing in many situations.

[Joel Kaye]

And I'm definitely stoked about losing 4-5 lbs.

Ditto - light is right. I'm going to be doing a lot of handheld. Since this is so modular I think everyone will probably be able to build what they want, but I want the lightest thing I can get that still works.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Guys don't worry it will be "Something For Everybody"

Again Look At All Those Beauties in the pictures below:

RED ONE PRODUCTION PACK: Something For Everybody

http://www.red.com/skin/img/pricelist/BaseAngle-Lg.jpg
1. RED ONE BASIC PRODUCTION PACK

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178646216.jpg
2. RED ONE "STANDARD" PRODUCTION PACK

http://www.red.com/skin/img/pricelist/PremiumPackAngle-Lg.jpg
3. RED ONE PREMIUM PRODUCTION PACK

[Hrvoje Simic]

Two concerns of mine would be the rods, Alexander mentioned the inconsistency of carbon fibre. Being connected to the sport fishing industry where millions of fishing rods are now made of carbon the fail rate of rods is much better than say five years ago. Generally when carbon rods fail they fail fairly soon when in use. There is no warning though! but i would doubt if two rods would fail at once so i am not unduly concerned with this. Carbon fibre rods tend to have little malleable strength so i am naturally worried about the clamping of the rods for security.


Fishing rods are made from very thin carbon.

My associate makes carbon clutches for racing cars and trust me - they're tough.

[John Allardice]

Much of the change was initiated by suggestions we received from Peter Jackson and Mitch Amundsen.

Jim

Can't believe everybody missed this one....
Jim, if Mitch has been playing with this then what does MB think?....I thought he was a die-hard film boy? I know he had one of the first 235's off the line and loved it for it's compactness. It'd be interesting to see what he could do with the Red.
Then you'd certainly see what level of color correction REDCODE RAW could take.

[Greg Voevodsky]

It happens to weigh 4-5 lbs less than what we showed at NAB. Much better for handheld "flying". We haven't lost many of the other configurations. This is just another possibility. The top and bottom cage system received the most weight loss.

Much of the change was initiated by suggestions we received from Peter Jackson and Mitch Amundsen.

Jim

And I thought you were listening to us.
At least Peter, Mitch and I think alike.

[Sam Druckerman]

I realize there are many here that couldn't make it to NAB. And for those of us who did, I believe very few actually had an opportunity to hold the complete cage in their hands.....

I was fortunate enough to handle the cage and my first thought was wow, it's very heavy. Keep in mind, I'm on the the boards everyday and I saw Red at cine gear.... And I was still taken back at the size of the rig.

Now, don't get me wrong I loved the look of it and could see the potential uses for it. And I understood that this was a prototype and the production model was going to be lighter. That said, I remember thinking that at half the weight it would still be .... considerable.

For those of us who haven't seen the cage or held it, you might be in for a surprise.

That was a wake up call to me that this rig would require a very serious head and sticks.

Red team, you are on the right track! Anything that can be done to offer reduced weight options is Awesome.... Thanks.

[Mike the beginner]

Fishing rods are made from very thin carbon.

My associate makes carbon clutches for racing cars and trust me - they're tough.

I hear what your saying omen, but these rods are not that thick! They are hollow.

The single rod in the basic production pack with one grip handle worries me if the rod fails your camera could fall. I like the newer design.

Mike the beginner

[Martin Drew]

While I don't dislike where the new config is going I have a few questions.

1. What was it about the old cage design that wasn't working? This seems to be quite a departure from all the previous cage concepts.

2. When the camera is on your shoulder what do you do with the handle that is sticking in the side of your head?

3. Do I assume that this new cage configuration will make for a cheaper premium pack? there seem to be fewer parts.

M

[Brook Willard]

I'm excited to see that the CF rods are gone in lieu of aluminum or titanium in these renders.

The weight loss is so awesome...

Martin, take a look at the way that the handles are attached. Everything's modular! You can take them off, move them, you name it. That's just one of an infinite number of positions.

[Michael Ragen]

Sam is correct. I was a little shocked to see the whole rig in person, and I held the cage as well. It was heavy. It looked fantastic, but would be very tricky to "swim" handheld with it (start lifting weights now), and I'm not even sure if the Oconnor 1030hd could handle the whole setup they had at NAB.

[Joel Kaye]

I was fortunate enough to handle the cage and my first thought was wow, it's very heavy.

Yeah, I grabbed the cage too. My reaction was "dang, this thing is a monster". It felt like more than 5lbs to me. The fully loaded RED on display was nearing 40 lbs.

Frankly, RED by itself looks like it's built like a tank. We'll see for sure when they get in the field.

[Brook Willard]

I'm not even sure if the Oconnor 1030hd could handle the whole setup they had at NAB.

There were two 1030s and one 2060 at NAB... if memory serves.

[Michael Ragen]

My bad. Was the big rig with the cage and everything on one of the 1030's?

[Antoine Fabi]

A suggestion...

Is it possible to have a second front handle on the basic production pack ?


... or order the second front handle separately ?

thanks

[Brook Willard]

The big rig was on a 2060, if memory serves. That said, a nearly fully-loaded camera went on the 1030 later in the show and seemed to do fine.

Again, if memory serves.

As for asking about parts being available individually, RED has stated that all parts will be available independently. The packages are just to make life easier, I believe.

[Martin Drew]

Martin, take a look at the way that the handles are attached. Everything's modular! You can take them off, move them, you name it. That's just one of an infinite number of positions.

Yeah. I know. Maybe I am over sensitive. I suppose you could just swing the handle up! I don't dislike the slimming down, weight loss is a real plus, but it looks like the cage as a separate entity has been dumped to be replaced by a repurposing of the front handles.

M

[Priyesh P.]

I´m still missing some handles with extension units like Arri`s S-3 or the Arricam shoulder set with three rotatable links. The current front handles by Red are quite high and may increase fatigue for those of us who have to hold for extended periods. Don´t know for sure.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Please take a look at my suggestions....

http://205.234.134.160/forum/showthread.php?t=2333

[Hrvoje Simic]

I hear what your saying omen, but these rods are not that thick! They are hollow.

It doesn't matter.
Remember, we are talking about the strongest molecular structure in nature.

I've checked many carbon parts and among them 3 mm thick rod with 15 mm diameter and you can't believe how tough that is. When you hold it it's so lightweight your brain confuses it's toughness with something familiar like plastic, while it's stronger than metal.

[Brook Willard]

The thing is, the potential issues with CF rods go beyond what you guys are discussing. Think about the external friction coefficient... the fact that the coating can wear... the risk of over-tightening and cracking a rod... etc.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Hmm...the friction might be an issue here, since the material is like many layers of cloth. I will check that out with the carbon guy.
I wonder what amount of tightning force would cause cracking...

[Stokestack]

I believe very few actually had an opportunity to hold the complete cage in their hands.....

I was fortunate enough to handle the cage and my first thought was wow, it's very heavy. Keep in mind, I'm on the the boards everyday and I saw Red at cine gear.... And I was still taken back at the size of the rig.

I had the same reaction. I really wondered about the viability of shoulder-mounted shooting of any significance, but didn't have anything to compare it to in terms of other gear. But I was a little alarmed.

[Alexander Black]

Is the camera now on a detachable baseplate?
Is the entire top rod assembly removable?
The grips on top don't worry me, they are a slightly updated design from the previous images.
Also, I've picked up the first cage, it was too heavy. Very good to hear that they put it on a diet.
It seems the only thing people are reacting to is the disappearance from the render of those handles which attach to both top and bottom rods, forming the 4-point cage. I don't see a reason why the new design prevents that?
Any other changes to the giant top handle? I liked it, but think it could use some additional thinking.
A modular rod system would be great. For example a +8" extension for the top rods so you could top mount a red motor, etc.

Looks good, would like to see more :red_bandana:

[Alexander Black]

Brook: re the head, I was, heh, hoping I could get this bad boy on a 1030HDS. The OConnor guy told me that a 2060 would be the "minimum" - which I didn't really believe. The 1030HDS is supposed to do 40lbs. I would hope even a fully loaded red comes in under that.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The 1030HDS is supposed to do 40lbs. I would hope even a fully loaded red comes in under that.

Even if it did come under that, you'd still want a head that could do double the weight of your rig.

For the 1030, your target rig weight should be around 20 lbs.

[Greg M]

The 2060 is well worth the extra dollars, I would recommend saving a bit longer and getting the best head you can afford. The beauty of the 2060/2575 is they will always hold their value too. Dont buy a undersized head and regret it later.

[Mike Prevette]

From an AC and operator standpoint this is a big improvement. The passs thorugh on the bottom is a HUGE improvement. It'll give you the option of strength for heavier set ups, or using two separate sets for lighter weight set ups. I would urge you the lengthen the surround on the front rod clamp though. Any extra surface area here will improve the weight capability and remove some torsion on the base plate.

Also Carbon rods are a VERY BAD IDEA. Carbon fails in a catastrophic way. metal gives and bends, in a much safer way. A bent metal rod offer's a lot more camera/lens protection in a fall than a crumpled carbon rod. Also Carbon tubs have less multidimensional strength than steel. Remember things clamp very hard to the rods, and they also have to take hits from all sides.

Also locking pins on the edge of the handle cross member would be a great improvement to any current system out there.

my 2c
_mike

[Brook Willard]

I pulled this picture from Mikko's site, as indicated in the watermark. Note the head. And now the cage/rail are even lighter so... :)

[Keith Nealy]

I agree about the protectiveness of the Premium cage.

With the new design, if you lay the camera down on its side, the tail will reset on the RedDrive and battery pak - not the best place to put stress.

Also for handheld, the handles don't seem as usefull in that position. Obviously, for steadicam work, it all gets taken off and I probably will use flash or express memory to reduce weight even further.

But, I'm not sold on the new design yet. Maybe if I saw a video like the NAB demonstartion of some actually holding it and expounding on it's virtues - HEY, I'm a visual guy - show me with pictures and perspective.

[Greg M]

I pulled this picture from Mikko's site, as indicated in the watermark. Note the head. And now the cage/rail are even lighter so... :)

Yes, but this camera is just on display.
BTW-the 1030HD is a fine head, and is rated for the weight...but I would recommend you always go bigger than you think you will need otherwise you will likely wish you did later. By the time you start adding harddrives, batteries, monitors, mattebox, follow focus, motors, etc your camera work will look alot better w/ the bigger head.

just my .02

[dalemccready]

And as soon as you stick a long zoom, even a 25-250HR , your head will start showing the strain.

[Matt Uhry]

It looks great, I'm so happy to see Red adopt this new rail design, the revolutionary thinking is in the sensor, storage and the work-flow is great.

I think most DP's and Operators's are very happy with the ergonomics of the newest film cameras - 235's, Arricam LT's, 416's, and X-Prods... There is much about the functionality of these cameras that has been honed over millions of hours of use and it's not an aspect of cameras that needs to be burned to the ground and re-invented.

A few points -

1. In this render the handgrips are in a silly place - perhaps make a new render with them in the right place ? ( on the lower rods ) - or omit them and you are in tripod mode. I can't see any reason to put them where they are shown in the render.

2. Lets have a look at how hand held is going to co-exist with this mode, A curved shoulder mount that goes into the dovetail on the bottom of the camera might work - you could slide it to achieve balance. The Lowest center of gravity possible would be good. Remember that old Aaton ad with a cat on the guys shoulder ?

3. Is it too late to have a design that has some shoulder relief in the aft part of the camera body? Like how a 435 body has the curve that lets you bring the camera's CG much lower when doing hand held. I'm afraid that the boxiness of the Red One is going to make the camera too high on the shoulder to be a good hand held camera...

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[C.H.Haskell]

Quick question, this is just another configuration correct? OR new Cage? Multiple configurations is the obvious solution for the variety of field work and locations your crew must adapt to.

Sorry if am just getting a little lost in all this buzz of the new design. I also loved the original design, it hooked me and I ordered it so I and hope that this is not just a rushed solution to get the cage in the hands of the people. I trust the RED team anyways, so keep up the good work.

Best

[Alex Boothby]

I may be alone on this but.. it would be nice to get a few words of incite from Red explaining the thought behind this latest change. Sorry but I just find it weird to post a picture with no explanation, predictably leaving us to gawk and speculate for endless pages. A few meaningful words gentleman, for the sake of clarity:

"We're considering a new cage design. What do you think?..."
or
"We've decided to offer a lighter cage option in addition to the premium and basic packs..."
or
"Here's the new cage - it's better."

Whatever. At least clarify if you are testing new designs or making a definitive change.

Some of us have invested in Red, and have done our part to embrace and promote your products - but you could make it a touch easier for us at times. Or is it a prerequisite to sift through endless semi-answers and haha cryptic responses in order to arrive at a decent unambiguous chunk of information?

I enjoy this forum and I'll happily wear the badge of Red fanboy, but when I write a check for $40 or 50K later this year, I'll be doing so as a thoughtful professional - not as a fanboy. Sometimes I feel like I've entered the 12th month of an 18 month cock tease.

[Poi Boy]

I with you Boothba... a few words would be nice.
-A

[Alexander Nikishin]

My main question is.... What purpose do the handles serve aside from being carry handles that belong mounted on the top anyway?

[Keith Nealy]

In the new picture it doesn't look like ther is a shoulder pad or at least not a substantial one. And the handles seem in the wrong position for handheld.

Also I'm not so sure the single bar is actually an advantage. Less weight is good I guess but not by sacrificing functionality

[Mark K.]

I'd say that the obvious thing to consider here is that the new handle arrangement renders this no longer a "cage" as such. Think of it as a different rig all together.

I personally really liked the look of the original cage - just seemed like it offered more security for the camera, and provided a rig that you'd feel comfortable picking up and lugging around from any part at any angle.

Mind you, since I'm still quite a way from being able to finance the camera (let alone a lens, battery, viewfinder, reddrive), I'm going to hold off on speculating and trust that the Red guys are doing what they do best: kicking ass and taking frames! (I've got a patent pending on that phrase by the way! :tongue: )

[Jannard]

You guys are too funny...

This isn't the only option, it is "another option". You can still mount the handles out front and "hanging low" if you want. Listening to the posts, it sounds like we abandoned everything you saw at NAB and now this is the only way our camera can work.

This new configuration was inspired by Mitch Amundsen (Transformers, Seabiscuit, etc.). It is significantly lighter for "handheld flying" than what we showed at NAB. But can do all the same things the old design could do... plus more. The major change is weight out of the top and bottom rails. And more parts now fit in more places.

BTW, if you really want the old cage assemble... just let us know. I was wondering how we would get rid of what we have made so far. Just count on carrying around another 4-5 pounds.

As for Bootha's comment (and Poi Boy's 2nd)... I did post why and what earlier in this thread.

Get some sleep.

Jim

[Poi Boy]

Zzzzzzzzzzz....
-a

[Rodrigo Lizana]

I agree many of the opinions here.
- I liked the old 4 handle cage ala "X-fighter" better but I understand the new design is just another option.
- I found the top handle too big and miss the cushion on it.
- I don´t´like the VF cable going from one side of the camera to the other. I really liked the idea of a semi-fixed VF, with no visible cables and the chance to add an "empty extender tube" to it.
- I agree that the handgrips should be more like the Arricam/Moviecam ones with 3D adjusment.

[Jannard]

I agree many of the opinions here.
- I liked the old 4 handle cage ala "X-fighter" better but I understand the new design is just another option.
- I found the top handle too big and miss the cushion on it.
- I don´t´like the VF cable going from one side of the camera to the other. I really liked the idea of a semi-fixed VF, with no visible cables and the chance to add an "empty extender tube" to it.
- I agree that the handgrips should be more like the Arricam/Moviecam ones with 3D adjusment.

You can still do that with new handles that attach to the rods.

Wait until we post the 2nd render.

Sorry

They are 3D adjustable.

Jim

[Alexander Nikishin]

Jim, what the new handles are missing are the mounting points on the tops of the handles. I see it somewhat limiting to have everything center mounted.

Also, what happened to the port holes on the rods idea?

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4343/redonecamera1ch1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Jannard]

[QUOTE=Alexander Nikishin;40852]Jim, what the new handles are missing are the mounting points on the tops of the handles. I see it somewhat limiting to have everything center mounted.

Also, what happened to the port holes on the rods idea?

I'm not sure what you are talking about... everything is NOT center mounted. There are a 1000 combinations... we posted one.

Holes in the rods is a bad idea we discarded 8 months ago.

We'll post more pics soon so everyone can stop worrying.

Jim

[Don Woods]

I love the new config. And to me the cage is still there. The whole idea as I thought was for it to be customizable for each shooting situation. I love the old cage and stuff we saw at NAB was fantastic a little old a little new I think its fantastic

[Sean Michael Johnston]

I'm glad you guys are redesigning the top handle. The previous one seems a bit oversized for a "carry" handle. I liked the versatility of all the mounting holes, though.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Jim, to clarify, the old cage handles had 1/4 20 holes at the top of each handle.

In the new renderings, there are only mounting points at the center point where the two handles meet. That's what I meant by center mounted only.

[Billy Summers]

The new rendition appears to be more "functional" than "fashionable". I see it as an improvement to streamline and minimize the original cage. Sometimes stuff that looks cool, doesn't work that well, and sometimes gear that doesn't look that cool, works really well.
I believe RED is working towards function coupled with fashion.
With form following the function.

Anyways...

B.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Billy, sorry to put you in the spotlight but what uses do you see the side handles having when shooting?

[Craig Schober]

Billy, sorry to put you in the spotlight but what uses do you see the side handles having when shooting?

i'm always shooting from the hip and using a flip out lcd on my hvx200. i could imagine the side handles being very convenient for such a shooting style. the top handle is good but only for simple pivoting. to get a really good "handle" on the angle, tilt and pan, i would mostly use the opposing corner handles while looking down into the lcd. otherwise the handles just provide protection for a shipping configuration or during camera mounting/setup and can always be removed when not needed during production too.

[Alexander Nikishin]

i'm always shooting from the hip and using a flip out lcd on my hvx200. i could imagine the side handles being very convenient for such a shooting style. the top handle is good but only for simple pivoting. to get a really good "handle" on the angle, tilt and pan, i would mostly use the opposing corner handles while looking down into the lcd. otherwise the handles just provide protection for a shipping configuration or during camera mounting/setup and can always be removed when not needed during production too.

Shooting from the hip? I see your shooting scenario as a specialized one, not many here ever shoot from the hip.

A top handle is ofcourse a good idea, nearly every camera has one.

wouldn't you rather use the pan/tilt bar as your main pivot point, after all, that is what it was made for.

And if you're spending the extra money for the handles to be used as a form of shipping safety....you can purchase quite a bit of bubble wrap for $1,000 and it sure won't cost you the same as the cage handles. :biggrin:

[tj williams]

RE the new option:

It seems to me that if the top sliding piece and the top mounting pieces (at the front and back) had the same height then you could hang a U shaped handle between them which would be both light and strong. This would also allow a low mode Steadicam plate to be mounted at two points and easily mounted as could the top handle forward or to the rear to achieve balance for different lenses matte boxes batteries etc. It would even be possible if one had two sliding top pieces to move the handle along the top in very small increments, likewise the low mode plate. Nice when the for aft adjustments in the donkey box are running out too far for good stability!

The top sliding piece seems to have a protrusion at the center a bolt? which sticks above the level of the rest. Nicer if the tops are flat with 1/4 20 and 3/8 16 holes.

Also it seems to me like the sliding piece is the one too high. better and lighter if they were all shorter to the body.

The rendering does not show the detail but it would be nice to know that these cinch levers etc were screwing into helicoils so that there will not be any aluminum threads.

Getting rid of carbon rods is a good idea in the rough and tumble of production where they will be overtightened and at the same point over and over the risk of catalysmic failure from repeated stresses at the same point are unacceptably high.

Having the rods go all the way through is better as it is way stronger. Having rods which support relatively heavy parts such as the battery or lens or lens mattbox followfocus come thru -1" long clamp with rod extensions of over a foot for a longer lens creates unacceptable side stresses on the rod clamp.

A nice work around for the previous adjustability, would be for the rods to be two piece with an insert with its outer diameter being the inner diameter of the rods, attached to one and sliding inside the other to allow adjustment of length without losing this newfound strength.

Using less pieces to accomplish the same purposes is not only good engineering being lighter and just as strong it will also help contain costs.

Amazing how these guys are still listening to users.

Thanks

[Craig Bowman]

1. Are the rods in the new design 15mm or 19mm?
2. Will they be long enough to attach a rod mounted mattebox on different length lenses. They look kind of short in the rendering or is that just for illustration sake right now?

I would hope 15mm as my FF and Mattebox hardware are designed for 15mm.

[ericyoung]

...Also Carbon rods are a VERY BAD IDEA. Carbon fails in a catastrophic way. metal gives and bends, in a much safer way...Remember things clamp very hard to the rods, and they also have to take hits from all sides...._mike

Agreed. Carbon fibre is very strong and lightweight, but only when undamaged. Surface abrasion, chipping, scratching, denting and clamp distortion can severely compromise it. Also with these rods, the load is at 90 degrees to the fibres, which does not play to carbon fibre's tensile strength.

[Billy Summers]

Billy, sorry to put you in the spotlight but what uses do you see the side handles having when shooting?

I would mount them on the bottom rails, far out past FF and Mattebox for handheld purposes.

In the current position they seem a bit strange, but I'm also not at RED holding/fondling this set-up. I mean these guys aren't idiots.
They also have plenty of access to proffessionals that have shot much bigger commercials/features etc. than many of us...


best,

B>

[Ralph Oshiro]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178646216.jpg


Is the camera now on a detachable baseplate?
Is the entire top rod assembly removable?
Looks nice! But Turing pointed out what I'm most interested in . . . the quick interhangeability of mounts. I would love it if the idea here is to add a third-party quick release plate to the bottom of this lightened version of the RAIL, and then be able to have the same receiver on your shoulder pad, fluid head, and Steadicam dovetail plate.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I would mount them on the bottom rails, far out past FF and Mattebox for handheld purposes.

That's where they belong. :biggrin:

[dalemccready]

3. Is it too late to have a design that has some shoulder relief in the aft part of the camera body? Like how a 435 body has the curve that lets you bring the camera's CG much lower when doing hand held. I'm afraid that the boxiness of the Red One is going to make the camera too high on the shoulder to be a good hand held camera...

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

I think we need to be careful here though, this is a light body. I wouldn't want to see a fixed position curve (not that you were necessarily endorsing that Matt) as it's not often that you can use the Arricams (or 435 particularly) and have the weight distribution right over the cutaway. Some nut of a DP always wants you to stick a zoom on and operate handheld so that you can give it some "action" popping the zoom in and out, or "in and OUCH" in this case.

For me having an attachable curved pad/brace for handheld that's adjustable fore and aft is more important than losing a little height, especially when the viewfinder can be lowered on the Red. Unlike an optical finder.

[SF Geek]

I really don't see any uses for the side handles, whether it's the old ones or new. The camera is heavy enough without them. You don't need a freakin' roll cage for your camera either. If you're putting your camera in harms way, then put it in a crash box and have the grips mount it. That's what they're for. If you're worried about everyday bumps, remember that the camera isn't made out of glass. More stuff on the camera in studio mode is just more stuff to remove when going handheld. Top handle and handheld grips, that's all you need. Extra handles are just fluff, IMHO. I do like the top plate though and it does seem reasonable that you'll want a guard for all the cables coming out the side of the camera. I'm still worried about the orientation of the handheld grips. If I tilt them forward, which i'll need to do so i don't kill my wrists, it seems that weight and leverage would make them slip all the way forward on the rods unless you crank down so hard that you bend the rods themselves.

Sorry. I guess this post turned out pretty negative.

[dalemccready]

jeeeez lighten up buddy! ;)

[dalemccready]

I've asked repeatedly and seen repeated answers that the grips are tilt friendly fore and aft.

I have a question for all those top handle doubters/haters though...Ever operated a camera down low, scooting along underarm with a decent sized lens like a Cooke S4?

That chunky handle looked great to me for that. Centrally balanced and strong is great. Perfect for bouncing around on a quad bike handheld but not on the shoulder. Sometimes its easier to let the weight hang than try to heft it.

Too many handles are in dumb places to offset magazines and practically useless for carrying the camera. Although people may only use lightweight gear there are some of us eyeing this camera up for heavy duty work with optimo zooms and such. We better be able to pick it up with the full works on there. Nothing more boring than stripping a camera back just to move it.

[Jannard]

We are dropping carbon fiber rods because they explode- not a good thing.

We still support both 15mm and 19mm rods.

There are a ton of configurations you are not seeing (yet), including new handles. Hang in there... we'll post soon enough.

The biggest problem we had with what we showed at NAB was weight and handheld "flying" capability. Now there are many more options and the weight of every configuration is less- a good thing.

We are trying to accommodate steadicam, on the shoulder, cradling, one hand hang shooting, tripod, crane, helicopter mounted and UW housings. Not an easy trick when you try to minimize the number of pieces, get the same pieces to do double-duty AND keep the weight down. Just so you know...

Jim

[Greg Voevodsky]

Good to hear, Jim. At NAB, RED looked like it was going the way of the Humvee with lots of new weight and protection - especially those of us that lifted the cage without the camera. And many here who were asking for lightweight or Diet RED were feeling a bit left out. Glad to see, we can configure it both ways again. Thanks.

[Matt Uhry]

I think we need to be careful here though, this is a light body. I wouldn't want to see a fixed position curve (not that you were necessarily endorsing that Matt) as it's not often that you can use the Arricams (or 435 particularly) and have the weight distribution right over the cutaway.


Good Point, Dale.

Yes, I agree that a movable shoulder pad, like on a Panaflex is good too, but a cutout would seem to be the only way to get the CG of the camera as low as possible, which helps with rotational torque when you do walking or running hand held shots It seems like with the red you could counterweight with the battery / redmag although the Li-On batts are not really all that heavy. I'd still go for lowest possible CG versus movable fulcrum.

To me when I first shot with a Moviecam SL ( and later and Arricam LT ) I was so thrilled with the balance and how good it felt on my shoulder I did not want to give it back to my AC to reload! And I owned an Aaton at the time which was not too shabby either.

I would hope to have the same feelings about my Red.

Kind of all speculation until you put it on your shoulder and run around with it trying to keep a good horizon and things reasonably smooth.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Ralph Oshiro]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178646216.jpg


Looks nice! But Turing pointed out what I'm most interested in . . . the quick interhangeability of mounts. I would love it if the idea here is to add a third-party quick release plate to the bottom of this lightened version of the RAIL, and then be able to have the same receiver on your shoulder pad, fluid head, and Steadicam dovetail plate.

Actually, to be perfectly clear about what I DON'T like about the rail system is this . . . I simply want to be able to mount the HDD+BATTERY rig INDEPENDENT of the rail system or the baseplate, and be able to mount the HDD+BATTERY rig as DIRECTLY to the camera body itself as possible. This would solve all of my mounting issues and permit me the most versatile, customizable ancillary mounting possibilities of all.

Again, it's imperative to me to be able to quickly remove the shoulder mount and IMMEDIATELY be able to mount to a fluid head or other camera support platform. *The ONLY way to do that is to employ third-party, quick-release plates/receivers, so you can have multiple quick-release receivers on every piece of camera support gear you own.

*[Yes, I could simply put the quick-release plate on the bottom of the RED rail, but I much prefer my camera as light as possible, with the least amount of stuff on it. I just need a way to directly mount the HDD+BATTERY cage to the camera body itself, without requiring a base plate or rods to do it. If this ONE request could eventually be accomodated, I'll be a pretty happy camper. Thanks.]

[Clayton Harper]

Red Team,

I just want to express that while it might seem a little crazy/stressful that the design is changing again seconds before launch, it is also wonderful.

In a weird way, the PJ film and the NAB protos have served as another round of revision to the product.

I wouldn't be half surprised if we saw some more tweaks of whatever renders come next just before the manufacturing. Red has revolutionized its working methods as well!

That being said, please get Red #8 out the door ASAP so I can get to mowing Gibby's lawn already.

[Mark L. Pederson]

That being said, please get Red #8 out the door ASAP so I can get to mowing Gibby's lawn already.

You can mow Gibby's lawn after you finish doing my laundry and ironing my shirts.

[Clayton Harper]

You can mow Gibby's lawn after you finish doing my laundry and ironing my shirts.

Do you like heavy or light starch, sir? :meh:

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

So...

http://www.red.com/skin/img/accessories/rails_for_crane.jpg

Vs.


http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178646216.jpg

[Ace]

...We are dropping carbon fiber rods because they explode- not a good thing....

Jim

I'll probably have to change the forum logo now from CF to Alum! :) I liked the cool factor of carbon fibre while it lasted. Maybe it shall make its debut in the future as a composite fuselage on superlight editions of the RED one (lite).

In regards to the new design, it is much more accommodative to users I must say. The sliding design means that when an operator is using the camera, if at anypoint they feel uncomfortable or need more elbow room, or need to stretch their arms forward or whatever, they can pretty much adjust on the spot.. perhaps without even taking the camera off the shoulder. Maybe the fastening mechanism can be a squeeze trigger on the handle, so that it can be done without even taking your hand off the handle (kind of like a bike brake but smaller).

Good ergonomic design is probably the most significant part (IMO) of the industrial design process. The core interaction with the human body is more significant in this camera than any other because of the versatility and the wide gamut of end users. If that interaction point is weak, it weakens the end application. So it was quite important to have this cage update, as it takes the adaptability and ease of use up a notch.

Designing a good chair can be more challenging than designing a good building!

[JD Holloway]

I'm not sure what the huff is all about.

This render clearly allows for the addition of "four corner" two-point mounted "handles" when these "operating handles" and plate are moved to their appropriate front handheld/lens/motor support position. They might have to mount to the rods instead of being intrinsic to the tensioners. These handles can be RED (hopefully) or third party supplied.

If you are concerned about losing the two rod system, I understand. But the setup looks about as strong as the old if you use two separate rods; the tensioners dont look too different or less beefy. The additional ability to go "straight through" is a huge advantage that should have always been the priority.

While the design has clearly gone on a Slimfast-diet The overall strength of the system is greatly improved vis-a-vie mass distribution front to back.

Oh ya, carbon rocks, but carbon rods would suck; wrong application.
Titanium now....or Titanium Nitride coated Aluminum would be awesome, although its friction properties are different.

I'm sure this system can be pimped to the tits.

Lets all wait for the next renders...

J.

[HD Hildebrand]

Rock solid, lightest weight possible, quick to change configurations, compact, nice balance and durable - those are my priorities.

[Steve Gibby]

You can mow Gibby's lawn after you finish doing my laundry and ironing my shirts.

Lordnumberzero was jokingly referring to a thread on the Lens Tests forum about testing lenses, where he offered to mow my lawn or wash my car, responding to my upcoming tests of #8 in Los Angeles by myself and a diverse team of directors, DPs, cinematographers, and post specialists. Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2262

If you're guessing that your #6 & #7 will deliver before my #8, that's simply an assumption at this point. It's a safe bet to assume that #1-5 (Jim's cameras) will deliver before any other cameras, but the remainder of the first batch to deliver (#6-12) could deliver at the same time. There's been no indication for RED that the delivery of 6 through 12 would be staggered in date.

[Steve Gibby]

I’ve reviewed this entire thread. Being real familiar with the names and backgrounds of most of the regular posters on Red User, I’ll make these observations:

Those that posted negative reactions to the new cage design mockups seem to be guys who predominantly work in heavy camera configuration cine-style setups, and work mostly on tripods.

Conversely, those that posted positive reactions to the new cage design mockups seem to be guys that do a lot of lighter weight, mobile, hand held, stabilization unit, both cine style and EFP style.

I do both those weights and styles, thus I see the utility and function of the previous 4-grip and new mockups. Everyone on this thread was so intent on protecting their genre or niche of production that they conveniently overlooked the core philosophy of RED One that was set out at the very beginning of concept and development, 17 months ago: that RED One would be a versatile, scalable, flexible camera system that had at it’s center a small camera body, and then could be accessorized outward from there for a diverse range of production genres and sub-genres, both cine style and EFP style. Anyone who has followed RED One development from the beginning has heard that many times. Those who are new to RED need to do their homework. Why would RED develop a camera system that shoots so many formats and uses so many lens types – then hamstring the camera system’s capability by failing to design a broad range of accessories that further enable that diverse range of production genres? Should they just leave that up to 3rd party developers? I think not…

If a RED adopter’s chosen range of production skills and genres is narrow, fine, professional life is full of choices. But the flexibility and utility of RED One, and its resultant revenue generating potential is the 9/10ths of the iceberg that is beneath the water. On this thread, Jim shouldn’t even have had to explain that the new cage mockups were simply another lighter weight option for RED One use in mobile environments, and that the other, heavier options for rails, handles, and cage would still be available.

IMO it’s time for some people here to take their blinders off and look around them - RED one isn’t just for your sub-genre of production. There will continue to be a never-ending development of RED and 3rd party accessories for RED One that are intended to milk every last ounce of on-set and on-location capability out of RED One. Those of us who produce in a wide and deep list of genres and sub-genres, both cine style and EFP style, really appreciate that. If you don’t, fine, to each their own on that, but there are many of us who will.

[Clayton Harper]

Lordnumberzero was jokingly referring to a thread on the Lens Tests forum about testing lenses, where he offered to mow my lawn or wash my car, responding to my upcoming tests of #8 in Los Angeles by myself and a diverse team of directors, DPs, cinematographers, and post specialists. Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2262

If you're guessing that your #6 & #7 will deliver before my #8, that's simply an assumption at this point. It's a safe bet to assume that #1-5 (Jim's cameras) will deliver before any other cameras, but the remainder of the first batch to deliver (#6-12) could deliver at the same time. There's been no indication for RED that the delivery of 6 through 12 would be staggered in date.

Gibby, don't worry, Mark knows me. I am good at laundry and mowing. :matrix:

[tj williams]

In my market (a secondary city in the US) the rods are usually 15mm although one rental house supports 19mm. I have several sets of the rings to step down 19mm to 15mm which are widely available. The seperation on any plate I can get here is 104mm? The wider offset for arri owned rental houses has parts available in london, ny, la, inmho it would be better to support the more widely used standard, of 100mm separation. There was a posting a while back claiming to support both?
NEver a render of this. I frankly don't see how it can be done except by two seperate sets of gear???

[tj williams]

Macgregor with the two pictures.

What I'd like...

In the earlier rendering the slider flat tops are higher than the fixed flat tops. NOw in the new rendering the same thing occurs. As again the flat top of the sliding single piece is higher than the fixed pieces. This is actually worse from my perspective as there is only one slider in this configuration. Nice from a mounting standpoint for either a U (like the M16 top handle) or a steadicam low mode plate to have all the flat top parts the same height!!

I'm really looking forward to an ala-carte listing of parts so I can pick out the parts I want instead of the "kit approach"

[Finner]

Those that posted negative reactions to the new cage design mockups seem to be guys who predominantly work in heavy camera configuration cine-style setups, and work mostly on tripods.

Hi Steve,

I work in the cine-style genre most of the time and after looking at the posts I made on this thread I can see how they could have been seen as negative. This was not my intent. All I thought was that handles that look like they are attached to the body but are not structurally strong enough to support the weight of the camera could be very dangerous. As far as the new features and rod system I see it all as a move in the right direction and a possitive thing. Over all I see a lot more mounting points and options along with a weight savings which is always good.

For myself and I think a lot of others that posted negatively it was not as much about disapointment in the new features as support and appreciation for past functions designs and features. Overall I think everyone would agree that there is very very little to complain about when it comes to this camera which considering the wide range of camera people here that is an amazing feat.

[Kyle Mallory]

Jim/Red Team,

If you could, I think it would help answer a lot of questions about flexibility in the design of the cage, if you were to render an exploded view or two.

I'd really like to see how the various handles/rails/cages all interconnect, and be able to identify what is connected to what, and how.

[Jarred Land]

Jim shouldn’t even have had to explain that the new cage mockups were simply another lighter weight option for RED One use in mobile environments, and that the other, heavier options for rails, handles, and cage would still be available.



great post Gibby.. but to be clear the cage is changing.. this system isnt an additional new cage system but a change to the existing one, and the old big handle top and big heavy sliding bottom wont be available (for now)

it can be configured to be similar to the old cage, and still uses some of the same parts, but it is a redesign.

More to come...

[Shawn Bannon]

glad to get rid of the old battering ram.

[Poi Boy]

Thanks Jarred,
That is the simple kind of explanation I was looking for.
Aloha
-A

[Don Woods]

Its good but I will miss the beautiful thing I held at NAB heavy or not.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Its good but I will miss the beautiful thing I held at NAB heavy or not.

And I will miss the beautiful thing I saw on a video from NAB... but never even got to hold or to know... :bye2:

(I am sure whatever the RED team end up sending out will be good enough by a comfortable margin, and that gives me comfort)

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for that further clarification Jarred. Jim's post #116 seemed to indicate that the old configurations were still an option. But the flexibility of the system will still be maintained by the ability to attach either RED, 3rd party, or custom fabricated accessories. Very cool...

[dalemccready]

I'll miss the potential of that top handle though. will the grips here be adjustable to place in a central position? This camera's so light that a lot more underslung operating could be used without knackering the operator.

...scared to post questions now! It's been a few quiet days on Reduser, I think everyone's enjoyed the interaction again, whether or not they believe their posts are useful to anyone, I've just enjoyed the feeling that maybe 1/100000th of my camera might actually have had my input somewhere.

And some of us might play devils advocate, purely to cover all the bases, whether or not we operate heavy, light, badly or well. I do all at different times ;)

Now lets have a debate on the best configuration for pedestal use! It'll be fun!
:)

[Ken Willinger]

Having checked out the cage at NAB I think the redesign is a good idea. It was a bit big and bulky. I also like the move away from the CF rails. The lower profile on the current render looks great and is much more manageable. I'm still wondering about the placement of the handles though! And I hope there is a lower profile top handle in the works...
And points to attach a strap for us doc guys!

[Júlio Taubkin]

I like that the rods united. Maybe you also dumped the idea of the intermediate package coming with just 3 rods, so you couldn't mount a 19mm mattebox and your magazine at the same time...

Anyway I liked the change. It looks more conventional, but sturdier and more useful. Congrats!

[Patrick Wynne]

I'm going to trust Jim and Co implicitly and not worry about any of it :). They've proven themselves enough so I'm sure they'll make the right decisions.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Kissal - Keep It Simple Simple And Light. Thanks.

[Paul Leeming]

I'm going to trust Jim and Co implicitly and not worry about any of it :). They've proven themselves enough so I'm sure they'll make the right decisions.Ditto. I have seen enough proof of Red's commitment to build the absolute best camera and package they can, to know they have all the bases covered (and will no doubt provide many more welcome surprises before it all ships, I'm sure!).

Of course part of the reason for that IS the feedback of the community, so I absolutely want to see all the hard questions and comments continue, but at the same time I sleep easy knowing the team is keeping the best set of options at all times during development and has the bird's eye view of the whole operation which most of us don't have.

Keep up the awesome work everyone (both devs and users)!! I love this community!

[Ace]

Ditto. I have seen enough proof of Red's commitment to build the absolute best camera and package they can, to know they have all the bases covered (and will no doubt provide many more welcome surprises before it all ships, I'm sure!).

Of course part of the reason for that IS the feedback of the community, so I absolutely want to see all the hard questions and comments continue, but at the same time I sleep easy knowing the team is keeping the best set of options at all times during development and has the bird's eye view of the whole operation which most of us don't have.

Keep up the awesome work everyone (both devs and users)!! I love this community!

Yeah its good at times to just leave it to the pros.. User feedback is an important element, but you cannot expect the end user to conceptualize on the same level of the designer. The designer seeks to produce something beyond the expectancies the end-user in the first place; solving problems you may not have realised even as a professional film maker or operator. So its a bit of fine balance. But theres something magical about whats been happening on this forum the past 12 months.