Monstro

[roryhinds]

13+ stops of latitude is a big deal for me and I'm sure others.

Epic X is a great offer from RED and Jim is definitely looking after REDusers.

My conflict is Monstro.

If Monstro is only a few months after Mysterium X and the cameras sensors aren't upgradable then its a hard choice to give up my R1 credit and cough up the cash for Epic X when it will be old school in the few months when Monstro hits the streets.

As much as I want the new form factor with faster full frame rates, economically it wouldn't make sense for me to go for Epic X when Monstro is so close.

What do others think?

[Todd T]

Epic X is a basic camera system, you would only need to buy the Monstro brain to upgrade your "system", and you would then have the choice to sell the mysterium-X Brain or keep it as a backup.

I don't understand why at this point so many people still confuse the "brain" with the entire "camera system".

[Kyle Presley]

There's a reason Monstro doesn't come in S35 size. If you want S35 at 5K rez, Mysterium X is the only way to go. This will give you a true 4K resolution. Otherwise it's FF.

[roryhinds]

without the "Brain" you don't have a camera.
A camera to me is a device that captures an image.

If the "Brain" was a low cost component, then sure why not just buy another. But at $33k, I'd say its buying me a new camera.

[MIKE TESTIN]

"Only need to buy a new brain." Isn't it 33K.

[Todd T]

And just how much do you think the "Sensor" would cost?

The "Brain" is the sensor. The circuitry necessary to capture and transmit the image from the sensor, and the sensor itself, are inextricably linked. You can't have one without the other.

The price reflects the cost of the sensor as well as the cost of the processor needed to render the image stream from that sensor.

If all I need is a FF sensor I gain absolutely no benefit having the processor from a 645 and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Conversely, if you want a 9K (or 28K) image you will also have to bear the cost of the processor that will support it.

The brain is a component of the camera, the brain by itself will not produce an image.

The design of epic allows you to choose exactly the sensor you need to create the camera that you want. That camera will consist of at least a dozen other parts and modules.

If your needs change, then you have the ability to replace just the exact part that you need to be change; all your other components stay the same.

Higher performance always costs more, there is no way to get around that.

[Michael Hastings]

And just how much do you think the "Sensor" would cost?

The "Brain" is the sensor. The circuitry necessary to capture and transmit the image from the sensor, and the sensor itself, are inextricably linked. You can't have one without the other.

The price reflects the cost of the sensor as well as the cost of the processor needed to render the image stream from that sensor.

If all I need is a FF sensor I gain absolutely no benefit having the processor from a 645 and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Conversely, if you want a 9K (or 28K) image you will also have to bear the cost of the processor that will support it.

The brain is a component of the camera, the brain by itself will not produce an image.

The design of epic allows you to choose exactly the sensor you need to create the camera that you want. That camera will consist of at least a dozen other parts and modules.

If your needs change, then you have the ability to replace just the exact part that you need to be change; all your other components stay the same.

Higher performance always costs more, there is no way to get around that.

I think you are right, many people seem to think that changing the sensor is all that has to happen. Jim has already said they are moving to ASICs for the EPICs and Scarlets. It will probably be something along the lines of the DIGIC chips Canon has in their cameras and it may be a matter of Scarlet 3K only needs a single "REDIC" chip where others may use 2,3,4,8 or whatever working in parallel. Not only would it require more "REDIC" chips as you move up the scale but some type of bridging software and hardware, with development, hardware, and support costs for those spread out over a much smaller number of cameras.

While it would be great if there was a trade-in upgrade path from epic x to FF monstro I can see how this may not be feasible. I think the answer to the tradein for epic x or wait for monstro will boil down to where you are in the program. As an early number - RED 206 - I suspect it will make sense for me to grab an EpicX early on and make money with it while it is hot even if my ultimate goal is Monstro. REDONE owners farther down the line will have a harder decision. However, I do expect (although fine with being pleasantly surprised) that we should be reading the expected delivery dates as monstro being 1.5 to 2 seasons behind and closer to six months than three months. The monstro based cameras are more likely to be pushing the envelope and require more testing and tweaking before ready, and since it is likely to become the flagship, RED may want it to be a bit more mature at release than maybe the EpicX where RED knows that the previous redone owners are a little more risk tolerant and use to debugging on-the-fly.

In thinking about it, it seems to me my upgrade path is EpicX ASAP and the accessories included probably mean the upgrade really only costs $7K or so - and then a Scarlet FF monstro. Scarlet FF Monstro becomes the main camera for higher dynamic range and bit depth at normal frame rates. EpicX becomes my high speed camera. And both brains are available as backup to each other. In either case, I hope we have good smart mount support for Canon still lenses. EpicFF will become the do it all camera farther down the line and for new purchasers at the higher end.

PS A final thought. A while back - at about build 13 - Jim said if the camera never got better he could be happy for the rest of his life shooting with it as it was, and realistically that is how I feel about the REDONE - I can easily see how it can be better and I will upgrade because I can make business sense out of it. But in reality, if all I ever had was a REDONE I can see that it is all I really NEED pretty much for the foreseeable future. It produces far better pictures overall than the HDCAM/Varicams that I didn't buy because I couldn't make sense out of the minimal jump I got from the Z1/HVX style cameras (and I spent 30-40K on SD cameras in the 90s so it wasn't being afraid to spend that kind of money). The REDONE may not be the best 2 years from now but in reality it will suffice for virtually all network/documentary production and indy film production then and into the future.

Essentially, RED has shown you what is likely to be the entire market capability over the next 10 years. We are currently in a rapid improvement/development cycle as we moved from 3 chip small chip SD/HD cameras to CMOS/DSLR crossover to Motion picture technology and REDONE was really a convergence and implementation of what was available. Monstro is likely to hit the next "shelf" in sensor/camera technology with resolution and dynamic range that truly matches or exceeds film and probably meets a level that will truly last, without any significant quality compromise, for the rest of my lifetime.

Instead of the normal situation where SonyPan dribbles out the technology, with no roadmap for us and we have to constantly wonder "do I buy now, or wait so I don't get hammered when they introduce the next big leap that they knew about all along" - RED is not only giving us good choices at every budget level, but actually laying out the entire program for us, so we can make informed choices with an awareness of what is coming and how that factors into our current decisions.

[roryhinds]

no one is asking to put a 28k sensor upgrade in a 5k brain.
Upgrading from Mysterium X to Monstro, the electronics in the brain should be fast enough to maintain the frame rates and the higher DR gain.

If R1 can be upgraded I don't see why the "brains" can't be to.
Else lower the price and make them disposable.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I am pretty sure Jim has thought of something regarding this matter but he probably is still thinking on how to proceed. My guess is that there are probably tech limitations in the monstro sensor that are still to be figured out, so that the possibilities as of now are to stick to what we know. I too feel that my upgrade path is confusing, but also I know its too early and that probably a lot of things will change/improve in the upcoming year. I also feel I am missing a lot of info due the noise in the posts, so probably there will be some clarifications on what the new sensors will offer for sure. And once Jim gives out his examples of redcodes and sensors our perspective will be more cleared out. I am confident that there will be a way; my position at the moment is: lets wait, stop the speculation, do not believe everything you read, just as Jim posted, there are a lot of people in the forum who think they know whats going on and speak confidently, only to know latter on that they were wrong... so why talk about stuff that we still dont know for sure? Lets be excited about the new program, seize the best of it, and enjoy the change that has come between us.