Redcine Cost? [Archive]

RobRoySyd

01-13-2007, 05:26 AM

when i rent the camera will i receive a temporal license or is that smth the rental houses will have to figure out?

A very good question!
You might rent the camera for a few days but you'll probably still need the software long after the camera is returned. Sure it's something the rental houses will have to figure out but I think a lot of REDs are being bought with the intent of them being rented out. and I'd guess the rental houses are as much in the dark as anyone.

Would seem logical to me for RED to offer the licences for free, adding another cost burden to rental or post houses will surely only serve to increase costs to owners / users and hence hinder the wider takeup of RED.

MikeCurtis

01-13-2007, 10:04 AM

Don Woods

01-13-2007, 10:44 AM

If you rent you will just have to find a post facility that can process (Devlope) your footage.

Scott Webster

01-13-2007, 11:27 AM

I'm figuring a service the rental houses can offer is conversion to a format of your choosing (or multiple formats if you wish).
-mike

I think that is a service our rental operation will have to offer. That way the client still has the freedom to post at home or take the files to the post house of their choice without locking them in to one provider.

It also allows you control over the 'magazines' in such that they are not off site in a post house que for conversion.

It is an easier sell to producers "What do I do with this 'Redcode stuff'?"
"Bring it to us and we'll deliver it on harddrive with the file format of your choice"

Certainly a Mac tower has to be cheaper than a Digi-HDCAM-HDSR vtr rack!

Jeff Kilgroe

01-13-2007, 01:51 PM

I think that is a service our rental operation will have to offer. That way the client still has the freedom to post at home or take the files to the post house of their choice without locking them in to one provider.

I do plan to offer my RED for rental on occasion, but it won't just be camera only in most cases, but I will go with the deal. In that case I will just bring along any systems/hardware/software necessary. If I decide to let someone take the camera and necessary gear (or for other rental houses that do that), I think REDCINE will have to go with it by way of renting a competent laptop or workstation out with the camera. For someone who regularly rents a RED camera, it would make sense for them to own their own REDCINE license so they can always deal with the original source video when and how they need.

I guess we'll all see how it plays out and what the licensing issues are. I'm figuring I'll want REDCINE on the new Mac Pro I plan to buy later this year (when my REDservation # comes up) and will also want it on my Macbook Pro and possibly a windows workstation as well. Soooo.... Just one more question to add onto the pile. While I'd love to have a low number in line, I'm kinda glad there will be a lot of RED owners before me. ;)

Alex Boothby

01-13-2007, 04:28 PM

Anyone who rents out their RED package, but does not offer their clients a REDCINE strategy, services, or at least a referral, is not doing themselves or RED any favors.

Alex Boothby

01-13-2007, 04:37 PM

And I'm afraid that I'm going to have to bug Greame again (sorry) about including a 3-2 oulldown function in REDCINE to cine-expand 24p footage to 59.94. Maybe I will be a bastard and post a thread about this soon.

It's a great, great shame - but most editors I know prefer to receive their rushes at 59.94. Some of them don't even really know what 24p is, as they always receive their film footage converted through a telecine to 59.94, or through a dubbing house (for HDcam stuff) to 59.94. I see this as a potential roadblock to the fast and wide acceptance of RED in the film community.

Alex Boothby

01-13-2007, 04:46 PM

I think that is a service our rental operation will have to offer. That way the client still has the freedom to post at home or take the files to the post house of their choice without locking them in to one provider.

It also allows you control over the 'magazines' in such that they are not off site in a post house que for conversion.

It is an easier sell to producers "What do I do with this 'Redcode stuff'?"
"Bring it to us and we'll deliver it on harddrive with the file format of your choice"

Certainly a Mac tower has to be cheaper than a Digi-HDCAM-HDSR vtr rack!

Does anyone know what the current status is with insurance companies being reluctant to insure pure data productions? I'm a bit confused if the rental house will have to purchase insurance for their physical gear AS WELL AS any REDCINE post services they will be doing.

What happens if a shot, or an entire drive is damaged after the shoot but prior to backup during the REDCINE one-light stage. Your digital negative is now lost. Would production insurance pick this up or would the rental house / REDCINE conversion vendor be liable? I know that film labs offer limited protection if you read the fine print of the contract.

Thom Steinhoff

01-13-2007, 07:00 PM

Jim,

I know Redcine is a tremendous investment and will be an amazing program but as a firm believer in your revolution, I think you should figure out a way to have it available for free for anyone who needs it--at least the player / codec portion if you can succeed in creating a codec that plays directly in final cut or avid.

He who gives away the most software becomes the standard. Think flash, acrobat, Quicktime, etc.

If Redcine is available anywhere anyone needs it, and no one is ever delayed or hindered from working with Red footage because they have to secure a license or buy some software, then people won't be afraid of it and post houses, renters, etc. will embrace it.

If everyone else is charging big fees for their crap (in comparison) you will win. Maybe there is a way to segment the software into two versions--a runtime "lets edit 4K or convert to something we want" version and a pro version that has additional color/convert options as well as allows you to create proxies, complete your editing, then reconform with the full 4K.

Just an idea for the revolution. It doesn't affect me--as one of your loyal soldiers you have already said I'll get everything I need!

Gavin Greenwalt

01-13-2007, 07:37 PM

I'm figuring a service the rental houses can offer is conversion to a format of your choosing (or multiple formats if you wish).

Or you can buy your own license of it. Temporal license? Nobody else in the industry does it AFAIK - look at P2 stuff, etc. - if you rent a camera, you're expected to be able to deal with the footage has been the pattern I've seen.

-mike

Wouldn't work. Because I don't intend to de-bayer all of my footage to 4k. Only the footage my EDL needs. So that means I would need to go back to the rental house months later. Plus you probably want to do a color pass inside of REDCine. When I think of rental houses, I don't think "colorist".

M. Bergeron

01-14-2007, 07:05 AM

Something like SpeedGrade Onset is about 400$ and is, in my opinion, a necessary extra for the SI 2k camera. I guess even if Redcine is that much, it would still be interesting and would only be equivalent in price to an extra rental day. Renting software doesn't make that much sense in this situation.

I agree though that free REDcode codec or very cheap Redcine (50$) would make it more appealing in general. It would be similar to Apple's move with Final Cut Pro a few years ago. Make a great software and sell for cheap to help sell more computers and make people switch.

Michael Schrengohst

01-14-2007, 07:25 AM

If RED is saying that camera owners get REDCINE free....
then we must assume that it will cost non-RED owners something?
RED should look at selling software packages to RED Renters....
Having the RED Owner (rental house) responsible to each each renter
for grading/conforming footage would not work....
Most rental houses I deal with have low paid I want to break into the business kinda guys who have trouble finding the manuals for the gear - don't ask them how to use it!
But I could see an opportunity for RED to sell a bunch of stand a lone software packages. The RED rental house could sell them at rental time for a discount ($1250) vs the off the shelf price of ? $1750?? (10% of RED body price?)
I have no idea what RED is thinking but the sooner they come out with a policy the better it will be for all.

Nick Shaw

01-14-2007, 10:40 AM

Somebody who rents a Red does not need REDCINE to copy and back up their footage. They only need a laptop (and external drives) for that. They can check playback (albeit 'only' at 1080p) from the camera itself. REDCINE is only needed for post.

This is really just the same as the 'old' tape way of doing things. If you rent an HDCam, it is not the rental house's responsibility to ensure you have access to an HDCam deck to play the rushes back. You may well have to go to a dubbing house to get DV or Beta SP copies made for offlining, and to online you need to go to a facility that can handle the tape format you have shot.

The same applies to somebody who has rented a Red for a shoot, except that no matter how much they charge for a REDCINE license, I can't imagine it would cost as much as a deck. So if you can't afford to buy a Red, and are renting one for a project, but want to do your editing in house, you can buy REDCINE, add that to the budget, and you're still saving money.

Nick

Stephen Williams

01-14-2007, 11:09 AM

The same applies to somebody who has rented a Red for a shoot, except that no matter how much they charge for a REDCINE license, Nick

Hi,

As Redcine will only work with footage shot with a Red camera, I don't see any justification for a Red shooter to have to pay anything.

Just my 2c

Stephen

Nick Shaw

01-14-2007, 11:31 AM

HDCam decks only work with footage shot with a Sony camera, but you don't see Sony giving them away for free!

Just my 2p

Nick

EDIT
OK that's slightly unfair. But you also don't see Sony allowing any system except an Xpri to work with native HDCam material as far as I'm aware. Or if they do, they certainly don't give the licenses away for free.

Stephen Williams

01-14-2007, 11:51 AM

Thomas Mathai

01-14-2007, 12:36 PM

And I'm afraid that I'm going to have to bug Greame again (sorry) about including a 3-2 oulldown function in REDCINE to cine-expand 24p footage to 59.94. Maybe I will be a bastard and post a thread about this soon.

It's a great, great shame - but most editors I know prefer to receive their rushes at 59.94. Some of them don't even really know what 24p is, as they always receive their film footage converted through a telecine to 59.94, or through a dubbing house (for HDcam stuff) to 59.94. I see this as a potential roadblock to the fast and wide acceptance of RED in the film community.

Pulldown isn't a bad idea if you only plan to deliver for broadcast, but not because the editor wants it.

I say editors that don't know how to work in 24p need to learn and best for them to conform to the a proper workflow instead of the workflow conform to what their whims are.

It's hard enough having to do things fast and accurate, but it's even harder when we have to conform to someone's habits.

Jared VanLeuven

01-14-2007, 06:52 PM

Might this become somewhat moot point if the AAA editors incorporate some RedCode features themselves? RedCode could be the next DVCPro (you know what I mean)!

GlennChan

01-14-2007, 08:03 PM

And I'm afraid that I'm going to have to bug Greame again (sorry) about including a 3-2 oulldown function in REDCINE to cine-expand 24p footage to 59.94. Maybe I will be a bastard and post a thread about this soon.

I already did. :D
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=151&page=2

It's a great, great shame - but most editors I know prefer to receive their rushes at 59.94. Some of them don't even really know what 24p is, as they always receive their film footage converted through a telecine to 59.94, or through a dubbing house (for HDcam stuff) to 59.94. I see this as a potential roadblock to the fast and wide acceptance of RED in the film community.
Isn't that partially because no SD tape format supports 24p without pulldown? (Or am I misinformed/confused here?)

Lucas Wilson

01-14-2007, 10:04 PM

And I'm afraid that I'm going to have to bug Greame again (sorry) about including a 3-2 oulldown function in REDCINE to cine-expand 24p footage to 59.94. Maybe I will be a bastard and post a thread about this soon.

Pulldown isn't a bad idea if you only plan to deliver for broadcast, but not because the editor wants it. I say editors that don't know how to work in 24p need to learn...

I disagree about supporting any kind of pulldown in REDCINE, for a few reasons:

The two most popular editing platforms out there now are Final Cut Pro and some flavor of Avid. Both of them support native 24-frame editing, and the Kona card (FCP) and Meridien/Adrenaline (Avid) all support 3:2 insertion when laying off to tape. If someone needs an NTSC or 1080i master for some reason, it can be done on output. Inserting pulldown unnecessarily into the post path before then just causes all kinds of crazy problems. Generate 24fps Quicktimes or file sequences out of REDCINE, and let the editorial package deal with pulldown insertion.

REDCINE - to my knowledge - is just outputting files. So you want to create Quicktimes with pulldown? Why, when both FCP and Avid deal with 24fps native and can do realtime pulldown insertion on output.

The sooner that pulldown and pulldown legacies can be removed from all our lives, the better. Any attempt to extend their lives should be dealt with swiftly and severely. :)

Lucas Wilson
------------
Assimilate, Inc.
Los Angeles

Alex Boothby

01-14-2007, 10:44 PM

Maybe I will be a bastard and post a thread about this soon.

I already did. :D
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=151&page=2

Thanks Glenn - missed that. I will henceforth post my steaming screed over there. But first....

It's a great, great shame - but most editors I know prefer to receive their rushes at 59.94.
Isn't that partially because no SD tape format supports 24p without pulldown? (Or am I misinformed/confused here?)

Three big reasons:

#1.) As far as I know all SD tape formats (Dbeta, D5, dv, mini-dv, etc.) work at 29.97 or 25 (for PAL.) Not so with HD.

#2). As you pointed out in the other thread, editors are often receiving additional shots from stock footage houses, production libraries, agency archives, etc, at different playback rates. This is particularly true of documentaries, but is also prevalent in film and tv title sequences and commercials. I just finished online editing a Bud Light spot where the director chose to shoot some scenes at 30p to give it a slightly more "now" feeling - this was intentional. One single shot a 30p, 29.97 or 59.94i forces your entire edit into a 29.97 timeline.

#3). I personally find great benefit in finishing in the EXACT broadcast delivery format. The alternative is to let a dubbing house 'fix' it for you, and that can have an ugly outcome. This is particularly important when dealing with post vari-speeds. A post speed-ramp in a 24p timeline (with 3/2 pulldown added at the final step by a dubbing house) can look truly awful.

Frankly I totally agree with Greame's opinion that interlacing is an antiquated pain in the ass. But it is a battle we've already lost as far as North American broadcasting is concerned. Broadcasters are continuing to demand their master tapes at 59.94i, whether that is shot and posted @ 30p, or shot @ 24p with 3/2 pulldown added, or shot and posted in the heinous 60i 'video' format. The smartest move IMHO is (and has always been) to shoot at 24p and add 3/2 pulldown during telecine. This is what all telecine suites do - and so it should be with REDCINE.

For RED, I think this is a case of picking your battles. It is one thing to try to create a revolutionary digital camera. It is another to try to get the entire broadcast world to rethink their SD & HD delivery formats - especially given that HD is in the middle of implementation at considerable expense to Networks, broadcasters, home viewers, etc. If RED or someone else can change the broadcasters minds, I will be the first to stand up and scream BRAVO, but I wouldn't wish that at the expense of the successful integration of their product across this entire frustrating industry.

Alex Boothby

01-14-2007, 11:05 PM

I disagree about supporting any kind of pulldown in REDCINE, for a few reasons:

The two most popular editing platforms out there now are Final Cut Pro and some flavor of Avid. Both of them support native 24-frame editing...

The sooner that pulldown and pulldown legacies can be removed from all our lives, the better. Any attempt to extend their lives should be dealt with swiftly and severely. :)

Lucas Wilson
------------
Assimilate, Inc.
Los Angeles

Hi Lucas

I didn't see your post before replying to Glenn. You make a good argument but I think that my points #2 & #3 above still stand. The last offline editor I know has now (finally) switched over to a 24p compatible AVID, so that is no longer a problem really. I feel like a fool for arguing FOR interlacing, but I am just trying to reflect the market as I see it.

For clarity, all of my arguments relate to broadcast only, and not any other presentation format (film, web, dvd, etc.) It is indeed stunning that SYMPTE (or whoever) stuck with 59.94i as a broadcast format - I wonder if they are still restricted by the 60 Hz power frequency to ensure synch. Regardless, at the end of the day I am just pushing for a pulldown function in REDCINE as an option only, one that will hopefully rarely be used.

I should be skinned alive if anyone thinks I am actually advocating for interlaced presentation. But alas that is exactly what the broadcasters mandate. And I'm not really sure how to deal with them 'swiftly and severely'. :)

GlennChan

01-15-2007, 10:04 AM

Frankly I totally agree with Greame's opinion that interlacing is an antiquated pain in the ass.
Definitely agreed here. Unfortunately, we have to live with it. :(

2- 60.00hz was adopted for black&white broadcasting so that ground loops and such would stay stationary (visually, to the viewer) and not look so bad. When color television came along, the color subcarrier would interfere with the signal (um, something like that!). Running color television at 60 X 1000 / 1001 Hz fixed that, and it was backwards compatible with B&W receivers.

My guess about why HD is at 59.97 is so that you don't get complicated timing issues. If you need to simulcast a live event in both SD and HD, either of the feeds will need to discard a frame or hold a frame longer. You'll get a visual glitches every ~33 seconds.

GlennChan

01-15-2007, 10:45 AM

I will henceforth post my steaming screed over there.

It might make sense to continue in this thread and let the moderators split our posts into a new thread?

2- A somewhat academic question: What if Redcine can't add 3:2 pulldown?

One workaround would be to layout to HDCAM (SR) tape... although that really defeats the point of a data workflow. So let's look at a data, or mostly data workflow.

Suppose you have a documentary with both 24p Red and 60i sources. You'll want to make offline copies for editing- the convenient DV format won't work since it isn't 24p; if you have the storage, a bigger format like DVCPRO HD may not be a bad idea (or whatever else works well with your editing platform, like DNxHD). Suppose you edit in an NLE that can add pulldown on the fly. Ok.

Rough cut is done, the editor exports a 60i EDL. We assume that the NLE does the correct thing, matching the source 24p timecodes to the project's 60i timecode. We also assume that your NLE's Media Mangler won't have bugs regarding 24p.

(not sure) In the conform for online, I believe the 24p clips will get interpreted as varispeeds/speed changes. This might hurt performance? Ideally, you'd somehow set the online system to recognize the Red clips as 24p and add pulldown on the fly (not sure if all online systems can do this).

I don't know what happens to the audio/OMF.

To get material into the online system, you can either go the data route or a tape route.
Via the data route, you will be limited by hard drive speed and network speed getting material onto the online system's storage. You'll also be limited by the file formats supported by the online system, and the networking protocols and file system formats available (which might be a problem for old SGI kit?). Chances are, the online system will want to see 4:4:4 RGB or 4:2:2 uncompressed Y'CbCr. These are really big bandwidths at HD resolution.

Via a tape/SDI route, you'll need to efficiently lay the material onto tape. If you have a mix of 24p and 60i sources, the 60i stuff needs to go onto 60i tapes and 24p stuff onto 24p tapes. A kludge-y solution would be to checkerboard the project, so that all the Red footage is on two different layers. Cross-dissolves occur where footage overlaps. Output all the 24p Red stuff onto 2 24p tapes. Make an altered EDL that reflects this. So to get material into the online system, you use the altered EDL and capture away.

If you want to avoid the varispeed problem, you can set the deck to add pulldown. However, Redcine needs to reflect this in the altered EDL, making sure to perform the right timecode conversion. It also needs to figure out what reels+clips are 24p Red footage, and what reels aren't 24p Red footage.

Now that I think about it, this workflow is extremely prone to complications (some of which won't be in Red's control).

Stuart English

01-15-2007, 11:11 AM

There are also two very different threads here - we should be careful not to confuse ourselves.

One is you have a 24fps production but the off-line editor wants to operate at 59.94 fps interlaced, and then the on-line conform is at 24fps again - even if the final product is an NTSC show created from a 24fps master tape dub. This is a case where the sooner you can move off-line to the same native 24fps timeline the better.

The second is the RED footage is shot at 24 fps but it is intended for use in a 59.94 fps finished show .. in that case off-line as well as conform editing at 59.94 make perfect sense, but the source timecode from the RED camera needs replacing (because its 24 fps timecode).

Fortunately in Europe they had the good sense to use the same 25fps timebase for film capture and tv timecode, so these issues are moot.

Nick Shaw

01-15-2007, 11:15 AM

I'm SO glad I live in a land without pull-down! Everything at 25fps is just so much easier.

Nick

GlennChan

01-15-2007, 01:18 PM

in that case off-line as well as conform editing at 59.94 make perfect sense, but the source timecode from the RED camera needs replacing (because its 24 fps timecode).

I don't think that will work?? Converting the timecode from 23.98 to 59.97 only makes sense if you are to add pulldown. Rob indicated in another thread that Redcine wasn't going to be able to add pulldown.

2- You don't really want to replace the original timecode (it's just a bad idea). What you want to do is to show two timecodes in window burns:
A- The original 23.98 timecode.
B- The original 23.98 timecode converted to 60i timecode.

If you have a 24p tape in a VTR, you can control the deck either via 24p timecode or 60i timecode. i.e. Which set of timecodes do you want to use to control the deck. This behaviour is controlled via the 24p sense setting on Sony decks.

2b- You also need to indicate where the timecodes 'begin', or where their origin is. Because the 23.98 timecode is NDF and 59.97 timecode is DF, they don't stay in sync. DF timecode moves faster than the other. i.e. 01:23:45:00NDF is not very close in time to 01:23:45.00DF.

One is you have a 24fps production but the off-line editor wants to operate at 59.94 fps interlaced, and then the on-line conform is at 24fps again - even if the final product is an NTSC show created from a 24fps master tape dub. This is a case where the sooner you can move off-line to the same native 24fps timeline the better.
This should be the easier workflow if you are shooting Red. However, in a tape/SDI-centric environment, this method is only faster (than the other) if your show is effects/roto-heavy. In a 23.98p project, you don't need to sit there and remove 23.98 cadence for every single clip you need to do specific effects on. However, you generally can't package your 60i broadcast master in a 23.98 project.

Stuart English

01-15-2007, 03:31 PM

Lets start this over.

a) The final product is 24fps (or 23.98) That's common for film outs and also for TV episodic programming that will master to 24p (HDCAM or D-5), and then dub from that to NTSC / 720p / 1080i HD / PAL. In this case my suggestion is to shoot 24fps, off-line edit 24fps and conform at 24fps.

If anyone wants to do off-line or audio working at 59.94 in the middle of this process, good luck. Its not something we can "solve" for anyone, there are processes and fixups - as Glenn describes with stiping dual timecodes on tape - that can and will have to be used if you choose to do this.

b) The final product is 24fps (or 23.98) but you have some archive 59.94 footage. In this case my suggestion is to convert the archive footage to 24fps then off-line edit 24fps and conform at 24fps.

c) The final product is 59.94 NTSC or 720p or 1080i for television or there is a lot more archive footage than new 24fps footage then convert the 24 fps footage to 59.94 fps and edit the whole thing 59.94fps.

Alex Boothby

01-15-2007, 04:22 PM

c) The final product is 59.94 NTSC or 720p or 1080i for television or there is a lot more archive footage than new 24fps footage then convert the 24 fps footage to 59.94 fps and edit the whole thing 59.94fps.

Thanks Stuart. That lays it out beautifully.

For the record my request to include a cine-expand (3/2 pulldown) function in REDCINE (for rushes) relates only to your "SCENARIO C" above. And this scenario does happen - I've online edited at least a dozen projects this year which have included some 59.94i shots (a newscast, a kid's handy-cam, a cell phone cam, a cheap looking video commercial, a 30p product shot, etc.) as part of the intentional aesthetic of the final piece. This forced us into a 59.94i timeline. "Forced" is the wrong word, as there were really no compromises involved, such as working on a 24p timeline which would require vari-speeding all 59.94 footage by 125% to get it in synch, only to re-expand it to 59.94i at the end of the day for broadcast - ugly.

Personally I would NEVER mix up 24p and 59.94i editing timelines. Choose one and stick with it. Each project should be considered carefully by the offline editor, the online editor (and often the director or producer) and the finishing format chosen accordingly. Cheep software like EDL-MAX will easily convert EDLs from 24p to 30p (or 59.94) in case you need to conform your original 24p RED footage (which can then be expanded to fit into your 59.94 timeline.)

My major point is that for "North American broadcast only" projects it is misleading to assume the superiority of a 24p editing timeline, as everything is going to be converted to 59.94i at some point anyway - either in an online finishing suite, or by a dubbing house, or by the broadcaster themselves. I would much rather retain control of this myself at the online stage rather than leaving it to some under-payed midnight Tape-Op with a shitty monitor.

I think we all agree that interlacing is the enemy, which is exactly the reason I would prefer to keep it close. I keep my 24p close, but my interlacing closer! :)

Alex Boothby

01-15-2007, 04:23 PM

I'm SO glad I live in a land without pull-down! Everything at 25fps is just so much easier.

Nick

Ha! If I only had a nickle... or two bob and a half pence.:)

GlennChan

01-15-2007, 05:00 PM

c) The final product is 59.94 NTSC or 720p or 1080i for television or there is a lot more archive footage than new 24fps footage then convert the 24 fps footage to 59.94 fps and edit the whole thing 59.94fps.

I believe both boothba and I are mainly talking about this scenario.

The dual timecode burn is for this situation; the tapes only really have 24p timecode, timecode conversion is done on the fly. You burn both timecodes into the offline copy, in case something with the 60i timecode doesn't work (i.e. you did the wrong conversion). The original 24p timecode is unambiguous and refers to an exact timecode on the camera tape. The 60i timecodes don't do this; they are ambiguous since it depends on what timecode you start dropping from (IIRC).
By 60i I really mean 59.97DF, and by 24p I mean 23.98NDF.

2- Stuart:
Sorry, I missed a nuance in your previous post.
You were talking about:
Footage in 24p.
Offline edit in 60i. (Whereas I was thinking about 24p.)
Online in 24p.

That's not really an issue if you offline edit in 24p. And not a huge issue if you use EDL Max.

Anyways, it's situation C I'm more interested in. It's SCENARIO C where 3:2 pulldown in Redcine (with dual timecode burns) would be useful.

Stuart English

01-15-2007, 05:07 PM

Boothba and GlennChan : Understood !

Alex Boothby

01-15-2007, 05:59 PM

Thanks Stuart. I just tried re-reading some of my posts, and I nearly fell asleep - so thanks for staying with us.

Ultimately I just want RED and REDCINE to fit into as wide a marketplace as possible - including broadcast stuff. I think a quick survey of SD & HD broadcast projects will reveal that many, many editors are still offlining @ 59.94 - via pulldown added in telecine or 'dailies down-converts'. Once RED is in the door - so to speak - perhaps we can all work on converting the unconverted to the benefits of a 24p post workflow (and dealing with quirky interlaced particulars at the online stage.)

GlennChan

01-15-2007, 06:12 PM

I nearly fell asleep
The way I see it, when it comes to reading about workflow stuff you're either confused or falling asleep. :D

2- What about in the timecode burn, there is some text to indicate the pull-down cadence. If you don't have automatic cadence detection (like Vegas does so beautifully for 24p, and 24pA), then that at least is the next best thing. Oftentimes, the cadence flags and other things (like date/time for scene detection) don't carry over particular interfaces (i.e. no cadence flags over SDI).

Once RED is in the door - so to speak - perhaps we can all work on converting the unconverted to the benefits of a 24p post workflow (and dealing with quirky interlaced particulars at the online stage.)
For reasons we previously mentioned, there are still some projects that have to be finished in 60i timelines (or are finished faster in 60i timelines). For ho-hum TV series stuff like cooking shows, reality, etc. you might want to finish in a 60i project just so you can do the packaging at the same time. Commercial breaks, program start and stop times have to be exact to the frame (the broadcasters wield the power to be this picky since they are the client, unlike commercials).

If you need to make a PAL version of the program too, then unfortunately things get more complicated. Too many formats...