Digital Film recording expense

[Manjeet Singh]

Hi Folks,

The moment I learnt about RED camera, I was about excited the new possibilities it promised in the world of cinema. Even promoted it to my friends, who might chip in to buy the camera. I am a aspiring film maker currently working in Bombay film industry as an assistant director. If any one of you have been to the city of Mumbai (Bombay) you would have noticed its flair for films. It produces the maximum no. of films in the world and it could buy tons of RED cameras! I wrote a blog on RED on a site, which is read by lot of film industry people:-
http://passionforcinema.com/a-promising-new-hope-for-independent-film-makers-digital-cinema-by-red-camera/

After reading quite a lot of threads and comments found answers to lot of my questions but one thing, which concerns me:-
.To make 35mm prints from REDraw code, one will have to do the color correction and then print it to make 35mm version. This process would be lot simpler than Digital itermediate step as it would ommit the stage of scanning the negative, but color correction and print would remain. So the main question is, how much would it cost to make a 35mm print after CC? Will it be comparatively lot lesser than conventional DI? I heard a talk about using Nitris, how much would it cost on Nitris? I wuld be very happy to get a 2k print at a resonable cost.


I would be happy to assist the RED team if they have an eye on a huge Indian market in every possible way!

Thanks,

Manjeet

[Stephen Gentle]

A 4K print of a feature film can easily be over US$50, 000

[Manjeet Singh]

Thanks Steve. So it is as expensive as doing a DI.
How about a 2K print or even 1.5K print?

[Thomas Mathai]

Where did you get the $50K quote?

[Emanuel A.]

I add my interest on the information.

[Stephen Gentle]

Where did you get the $50K quote?

I'm pretty sure someone said that in another thread...

EDIT: I took a look around, and some sites quote $40,000+, but DVfilm will do it for $20,000 [link] (http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm) (that's 2K though)

[Manjeet Singh]

Thats a significant cost, which lot of the users might not visualize. You might shoot a film using a RED camera at a much much lower cost. Ultimately what matters the most is to have a 35mm print. If its cost as high as DI @ 2k print, which is close to around $35000(got the figure from a film maker, who DIed super 16 to get a 2k print), the overall cost involved in film making is mariginally less than shooting on 35mm. But for RED code since it does not have scan it should be cheap or may be there r other options like Nitris, whose cost is important to know.
I

[Antoine Baumann]

Manjeet, I do not really understand your comparison between RED images print back to film and DI.

As you wrote when shooting digitaly you skip the step of scaning your negativ film to do a digital grading.
But after that there is no reason for different price. Print back to film a 2k-4k film scan or print to film 2k-4k RED images involves the same technique (ARRI scanner) thus the same cost.

You can do the color correction on whatever system you like or your budget like (Nitris) but you won't escape the print back to film step, and this cost $ (as you wrote $35k)

antoine

[dalemccready]

you could also do a cheaper kine style transfer rather than laser record.

[Antoine Baumann]

Yeah exactly a CRT or a LCD....but it is sill something expensive.

[Gunleik Groven]

So the next release from Red will be a 35mm 4k printer?

-;)


Note: I know they're doing the business wise clever thing:
Building a 4k projector.

Gunleik

[Emanuel A.]

Word.

[Jaime Vallés]

Note: I know they're doing the business wise clever thing:
Building a 4k projector.

Gunleik

Exactly. In a few years, film distribution will be the exception, not the norm. Save your pennies... don't transfer your 4K RED movie to film. Spend the extra $50k on hiring a better DP or sound crew, and wait until digital distribution is a reality. Until that happens, keep polishing your screenplay. :wink:

[pliny]

... the overall cost involved in film making is mariginally less than shooting on 35mm.

Other commenters are correct to point out that whether you acquire digitally or on film, once you have completed your DI, the workflow ought to be, broadly speaking, the same. New technologies may emerge for getting Redcine to film, but there is no reason to expect that vendors will make that any cheaper. I would wager, however, that a 4k filmout will eventually be comparable to 2k pricing -- or at least fall to near current 2k pricing.

The difference with Red lies in the workflow itself, with some advantages being less quantifiable than others. For one, you are no longer dealing with large tape decks, suitcases of digital mags, or the like. Shooting to a single drive can save post time and money. Ditto for not having to make downconverts or do days-long manual conforms -- depending on your workflow of course. There are many data management tasks that eat up time in post and that I hope will be lessened with Red.

On the indie production end: not having to reload a mag all day certainly helps. Having greater much greater latitude compared to common HD camera sensors means that your lighting setups can be less elaborate, or that your actors can have more freedom of movement within a frame. These things translate into more creative freedoms and more production value for your buck/rupee. All of which can add to the value of your film. (Which in turn may influence its sale price.)

[Manjeet Singh]

The other alternative RED can take, while the technology in print and projection catches up with that of RED is to open up labs in big cities to facillitate the 35mm print at an affordable cost for RED users(I might be expecting little too much), especially at places which make lot of films. They could also do lab work for other clients to make money. With lot more volumes they could offset the cost and provide a boon for independent film makers!
The places they could open a lab:-
LA, NY (USA)
Toronto, Vancouver(Canada)
London,Paris,Berlin,Milan(EU)
Mumbai(Bombay), Chennai(Madras) (India makes over 1000feature films/year)
Hong Kong(China)

[Maheel R Perera]

Manjeet,

The Indian Govenment is encouraging Digital projection in India. There are several schemes provided for theater owners to migrate to DC by vendors such as UFO.

In Sri Lanka we are negotiating with UFO/India regarding implementing such a scheme in Sri Lanka.

http://www.ufomoviez.com/

Hope this will help.

[Jason Murphy]

The other alternative RED can take, while the technology in print and projection catches up with that of RED is to open up labs in big cities to facillitate the 35mm print at an affordable cost for RED users(I might be expecting little too much), especially at places which make lot of films. They could also do lab work for other clients to make money. With lot more volumes they could offset the cost and provide a boon for independent film makers!

Of course it would be great if post-production houses worldwide gave discounts on 35mm filmouts to RED users. It would also be great if someone funded my 20 hour long avant-garde epic to the tune of $50 million. :) (NOTE: In the unlikely event that anyone out there is willing to do this, PM me).

Maybe a few people will get discounts, but only because they are friends with the right people, have a good working relationship with the post house, and are willing to work during off-peak hours when the machines aren't being used by clients who are actually paying normal cost.

Here's the point: filmmaking is, almost any way you look at, an expensive endeavor. You can't get quality for nothing. If you're very good, and manage to beg, borrow and steal, you may be able to get some excellent work done with relatively few resources, but even THEN, we're still probably talking expenditures of upwards of $40,000, which to your average person is still prohibitively expensive.

The other thing worth pointing out here is that the amount of money you save shooting on a RED as opposed to shooting 35mm negative will likely outweigh the $35,000+ that it costs to do a 35mm filmout. And if you wanted to go the 35mm -> DI route, you'd be spending that money anyway. But if you want to exhibit on film (and I can imagine many people will), you're going to have to take the hit somewhere.

[David Mullen ASC]

I can't imagine someone wanting to make films now is going to sit on their hands and wait for theaters worldwide to switchover to digital projection...

You have to deal with the reality of the current distribution world, which includes 35mm prints for theatrical releases. But probably if you even get to that stage of needing theatrical prints, you have a distribution deal which would help cover the costs of a transfer to 35mm anyway, so I wouldn't worry so much about it. For special screenings and film festivals, you can probably find a way to project digitally in the meanwhile.

Film recorders are very slow and hence expensive. It's also why it's generally not cost-effective to record directly to print stock, making the per-print cost extremely high.

CRT recorders are cheaper than laser recorders, but you have to ask yourself what's the point of shooting with a 4K camera and then skimping on the quality of the film-out. These days, a laser recorder output for a feature is in the $50,000 range and a CRT recorder output can be nearly half that.

Manufacturers have been increasing the speed of their film recorders, which means prices will be dropping over time as a D.I. facility can putput more negatives faster per day.

[Noah Kadner]

David is right on the money. The hardest part about making a 35mm print of your movie is having a movie someone actually wants to show in a theater. Nearly all festivals are screening digitally these days(many exclusively) so there's no need to have a film print just for the circuit.

There's an *incredible* glut of indie films being made these days and only a very small percentage will ever have the privilege of screening in a theater. Aiming for a successful home video run is a much more pragmatic endeavor.

Noah

[tj williams]

The nice part about all this electronic imaging is that the price of film is saved and the cost of transfer to negative and printing is put off until after there is a distribution deal.

I have a friend who works for one of the big Prod/distro. companies as a rewrite guy. (mostly motw) When I talked to him about some indy projects we have been involved with he said: " This is all backwards, we don't greenlight a film until there is a distribution deal in place, why would anyone make a film when they don't have a market for it up front?"

For those who will continue to ignore the above advice, putting off costs until such time as there is a distrubition deal for theatrical or disk in place, is a very good thing.

Finally with the Red the electronic imaging can be both inexpensive and high quality to compare with HIgh end electronic ie viper D20 and not be at such a serious disadvantage compared to film.

[David Mullen ASC]

The nice part about all this electronic imaging is that the price of film is saved and the cost of transfer to negative and printing is put off until after there is a distribution deal.

I have a friend who works for one of the big Prod/distro. companies as a rewrite guy. (mostly motw) When I talked to him about some indy projects we have been involved with he said: " This is all backwards, we don't greenlight a film until there is a distribution deal in place, why would anyone make a film when they don't have a market for it up front?"

You could just as well wonder why someone would give a distribution deal to a movie that hasn't been made yet, sight unseen, but that's a whole other issue... I know it happens. There are all sorts of ways movies get funded.

Just remember that a distributor doesn't really pay for the costs of finishing a digital movie out to 35mm - they take those costs out of what they were planning on paying you for the movie. So you're still the one actually paying for the film-out, but at least you've got the cash now to do it.

They are all types of markets, even for artsy stuff, but you just have to be realistic about those markets.

[Maheel R Perera]

I can't imagine someone wanting to make films now is going to sit on their hands and wait for theaters worldwide to switchover to digital projection...

David,

I was refering to a question asked by Manjeet from India. The situation is vastly different in many other countries than America re: worldwide distribution. So it is obvious you can not imagine that.

We have to look after the local distribution first.

[number6]

They are all types of markets, even for artsy stuff, but you just have to be realistic about those markets.

I may be the only one looking at filmmaking this way, but my target is not a large theatrical distribution. (If a deal were offered, then that would be o.k.) My intention is to put something digital on a harddrive, try to promote it at the existing digital projection theatres, and go straight to dvd. If I have something that clicks, word-of-mouth will spread and the dvd will sell. If not, I'll make another one.

[David Mullen ASC]

That's a fine plan and some people go that route and it works for them.

I'd say the downside is just that it tends to take-up a lot of your time, self-promotion and perhaps self-distribution, to the point where you take one year off to make and post a feature, and then two years more to promote and distribute it, perhaps a year alone simply taking it around to film festivals. So if your goal is to buy a camera so you can make movies more often, there is an incentive to unload the movie quickly after post so you can move on to the next movie.

[gsteiner]

Hey Guys,

This is a completely random thought, but seemed a bit relevant since someone was asking about finding an inexpensive way to do 35mm filmouts.

I've been playing with the idea myself for some time and have a theory as to a workable model that might be a short term solution until digital distribution is readily available for independent filmmakers.

I contacted a manufacturer of a high quality 35mm laser unit (lasergraphics) and after a number of hours with their execs, we came up with a potential business model that would allow us to put out 35mm prints just above cost. ($0.10 per frame, or about $13,000 for a 90 minute film)

The main reason I am looking into this is I want a cheap way to output my own projects, and I figure there must be others like myself that want to do the same.

At this point the concept is still in the "I'd like to do this" stage, but I would certainly like to get everyone's input on the model. Rather than wasting space here, this is a link to a page on my website that outlines the model we came up with (the verbiage is a bit "sales-y", but I'm sure you'll all see what I'd like to accomplish):

http://www.q-station.com/film_filmout.html

If anyone it's interested in the concept (thought not necessarily the way it's proposed on the web page) I'd love to hear comments and thoughts about the model itself.

Greg Steiner
Producer/Director
gsteiner@q-station.com

[Mark L. Pederson]

Greg -

I contemplated a very simlar model until I did a whole lot of research. Now, I'm not saying you could not pull off a "package" of cheap film-outs working with a Lasergraphics P2 - the way you are talking about - but the devil is in the details.

You asked, so, I will list some very, very basic things for you think about -

#1) The technology. You are basing your model on the Lasergraphics P2. IMHO the P2 is NOT the best film recorder, not the WORST either - but have seen test records outs compared to other recorders?

Now if you are going for FAST, LOW cost, HIGH QUALITY 4K record outs - you should be looking very closely at this:

http://www.definity35mm.com/content/view/14/49/

4K same speed as 2K, full QT support. $180K USD - (that's some Offhollywood Consulting free of charge)

#2) Expertise. Who is doing the record outs - (running your recorder)? Do they have any lab/film background and experience? The folks that sell these recorders want you to think that you just load up a mag, click a mouse a few times and you are off to the races. This is simply not the case. At least not the case to get high qulity results.

Do you/they understand that when you deliver film elements to a distributor that there are specifications regarding the density of negative? - all adjustable on must recorders, but many published speed specs are NOT with proper, QC acceptable densities of the studios - does whoever is going to run your recorder understand and know how to set-up, test and deal with this?

Film stocks - LOTS of choices here - and they VERY MUCH impact price and look. Do you have a plan for managing LUTS for various stocks? Who is handling that?

#3) There is a company here in NYC, who shall remain nameless, that offers low cost film records outs on their "proprietary" equipment - which is a medical imaging LCD (3K resolution) attached to a Oxberry animation stand - and actually, escpecially on lower resolution digital material - the results are suprisingly good - good enough for a few theatrically released indies - they are LESS exciting when screened against the same material recorded out on another recorder - regardless, this company has proven that there is a demand for low cost film record outs -

#4) Competition. Think about this. There are lots of recorders out there, around the world. Many in places that like the American dollar. Many with LOTS of experience AND a wet lab and the expertise. Invest a bit in international phone calls ... you will be surpised how agressive some facilities around the world are - and you know - you just ship files on drives - my last record out was done in ROME this way.

#5) ROI - Service contracts on recorders are not cheap, make sure you read the fine print here - eFilm in LA has 14 Arrilasers cranking away and when I asked them if they got a good discount on the annual service agreements - the exec. I spoke to said "I WISH!"


The future is 4K digital projection. Period. However, until RED or someone makes a very LOW COST, EASY TO MAINTAIN projector - 35mm will be the standard.

Here in the US, we tend to think alot about the US market - but as far as the WORLD going to 4K digital - you need to remember that in many, many countries the movie theatres have old 35mm projectors that have been there for decades and are easy to maintain and operate by low cost, low tech personnal. So IMHO, to really get the WORLD to 4K digital projection quickly, you need to be talking say ... under $30K and easy to maintain. I suspect that RED will drop a bomb soon, once they start shipping cameras - but yeah, we still have some time recording out to 35mm.

I DO AGREE that there is a SHORT TERM opportunity in low-cost 4K film record outs - but to do it right, there is some real time and energy, FAR beyond "just load the mag and click a few settings on our cool GUI" - so, tread VERY carefully.

Hope this was ... helpful.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I have a friend who works for one of the big Prod/distro. companies as a rewrite guy. (mostly motw) When I talked to him about some indy projects we have been involved with he said: " This is all backwards, we don't greenlight a film until there is a distribution deal in place, why would anyone make a film when they don't have a market for it up front?"


Unless you have significant cast, or an fantastic track record as a producer, you will NOT get a distribution deal before you shoot your film.

TJ - to answer your friend who re-writes MOWs - "because you have to" in order to build a track record. In order to establish yourself.

Why would an aspiring cinemtographer ever shoot anything without getting paid?

Over the years I have been involved with many indpendent features in various capacities. Only ONE had a distribution deal before we shot. I have also been involved with the SELLING of many of these films, and it very time consuming, and it is a slippery slope outside of the dream BIDDING WAR AT SUNDANCE scenerio which happens once-in-a-lifetime at best (which happened to me once w/Super Troopers).

One of our primary goals/strategies at Offhollywood is to secure a FIRST LOOK distribution deal with the home entertainment division of major studio. The short term reality of that happening will largely depend on who buys (and for how much) our new feature film ROCKAWAY (a Latino action film shot on 2-perf 35mm techniscope).

But I can tell you, I am looking very forward to the day of making films WITH a distribution deal in place first - but until then - we roll the dice.

Because we have to.

[C.H.Haskell]

Interesting thread here folks...;)

From what I have learned, save the coin on the film-out and or put it back in your picture like many suggested and if your film is successful and gets picked up then let the big boys distribute it on film for you. No?

Best

[Mark L. Pederson]

If you don't have a distribution contract in hand that requires 35mm deliverables - then put the $$ on the screen .... and buy a set of RED PRIMES.

[gsteiner]

Hey Hollywood,

Thanks for the additional insight. Some of your points I've considered, while others I hadn't given much thought to.

Down here in South Florida, the only local lab is Continental Film Labs, and I have a few contacts that have handled a lot of work there, from developing to color timing of dailies, prints, etc. I've already spoken with a few of them who like our idea (in theory) and would be willing to work (for a reasonble fee of course, which I've built into the cost at $0.10 per frame) to output the films and oversee the development issues on the negative.

Beyond that, I'm really still collecting data. I selected the P2 for my planning model, mainly because they were a relatively inexpensive unit ($200,000) that has been used on a number of big budget films, including (according to the company) Chronicals of Narnia, The Pirates of the Caribbean, and Underworld, among others, and the fact that it is upgradeable to any higher model. That plus, the company has been very helpful trying to put a working model together (of course they also want to sell me one of their units and a maintenance contract).

I haven't considered going overseas for a filmout, but you made a very good point and I will certainly begin looking at some of the overseas alternatives as well. I also will look into the other unit you suggested.

Ultimately, I don't want to be in the film recording business myself, but I could envision a scenareo where there was a kind of co-op not for profit that served the independent filmmaker community. This way it could be partially grant funded (for maintenence and staff, etc.) which may allow the cost to be reduced even further.

Thanks for the insights. I'll reevaluate the model some more and see if there is any way to improve apon it, though I think your suggestions were an excellent starting point!

Greg Steiner

[M Most]

Hey Hollywood,
Down here in South Florida, the only local lab is Continental Film Labs

They are most definitely NOT the only lab. Cineworks Digital Studios (disclaimer #1: I am Chief Technologist there) is a full service lab, full HD post facility (including HDCam SR), and full DI facility (we do our DI work in a DCI compliant DI theater, using an NEC iS2K projector and Assimilate Scratch). Feel free to give me a call, we'll be happy to talk to you about any projects you might have.

Disclaimer #2: we are also Red reservation holders.

General comment: I really don't know why some people still think the lab you mentioned is the "only" lab in South Florida. We've been around for almost 6 years, and at the moment are the only facility doing HD transfers in the area. We are currently handling processing and transfer on a Fox series being shot here on S16mm for the next 3 months or so. Maybe it's that the names are a bit similar.....

Disclaimer #3: I don't mean for this to be an advertisement, I simply mean for it to be informative. I apologise in advance to anyone who might see it otherwise.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I think it makes a pretty huge difference regardless of whether you eventually plan to print to film. If you're printing your movie to film, one would assume you have a buyer already of some sort, I mean why would you be printing anything to 35mm film if you weren't showing it at a theater intending to make money, or many theaters, etc? But at least you have the product to show to buyers for way cheaper than shooting on 35mm film from the start...

[laguun]

as sidenote - when we record 90min in 1080p/2k@10bit@log->35mm, we usually pay below 15.000 euro including zerocopy & lightsound.

speaking of resolutions - if you project mechanical 35mm, the main bottleneck will be most certainly not the 2k or 4k filmrecorder, but the 35mm projection in the cinema, which usually won´t resolve 2k anyway.

however, if you want to make many copies, you still might consider a 4k master to have more headroom for additional generations in the copy process.

there are many people who tend to underestimate how fast 35mm quality will decrease over several copy generations.

furthermore, for the "ultimate-no-budget-we-are-real-rockers" approach, there is still the hardcore indie style - shoot it by hand from a top-notch class 1 hd monitor with a 35mm camera, frame by frame.
Haven´t done that in this millenium so far, but when i was a younger twen, we did that here and there for shortforms. but be warned - this punkrock-low-budget method isn´t trivial and requires absolute precision, testruns and in the best case an aligned optical system to erradicate any spatial distortions in the optic path.

[martinnoweck]

furthermore, for the "ultimate-no-budget-we-are-real-rockers" approach, there is still the hardcore indie style - shoot it by hand from a top-notch class 1 hd monitor with a 35mm camera, frame by frame.
Haven´t done that in this millenium so far, but when i was a younger twen, we did that here and there for shortforms. but be warned - this punkrock-low-budget method isn´t trivial and requires absolute precision, testruns and in the best case an aligned optical system to erradicate any spatial distortions in the optic path.


hehe, i like your punkrock-low-budget method ;-)
martin

[Tai Wah Lim]

Hey Hollywood,

Thanks for the additional insight. Some of your points I've considered, while others I hadn't given much thought to.

Down here in South Florida, the only local lab is Continental Film Labs, and I have a few contacts that have handled a lot of work there, from developing to color timing of dailies, prints, etc. I've already spoken with a few of them who like our idea (in theory) and would be willing to work (for a reasonble fee of course, which I've built into the cost at $0.10 per frame) to output the films and oversee the development issues on the negative.

Beyond that, I'm really still collecting data. I selected the P2 for my planning model, mainly because they were a relatively inexpensive unit ($200,000) that has been used on a number of big budget films, including (according to the company) Chronicals of Narnia, The Pirates of the Caribbean, and Underworld, among others, and the fact that it is upgradeable to any higher model. That plus, the company has been very helpful trying to put a working model together (of course they also want to sell me one of their units and a maintenance contract).

I haven't considered going overseas for a filmout, but you made a very good point and I will certainly begin looking at some of the overseas alternatives as well. I also will look into the other unit you suggested.

Ultimately, I don't want to be in the film recording business myself, but I could envision a scenareo where there was a kind of co-op not for profit that served the independent filmmaker community. This way it could be partially grant funded (for maintenence and staff, etc.) which may allow the cost to be reduced even further.

Thanks for the insights. I'll reevaluate the model some more and see if there is any way to improve apon it, though I think your suggestions were an excellent starting point!

Greg Steiner

There are labs in SE Asia that will do filmout with prints at reasonable costs

[mvb]

I took a look around, and some sites quote $40,000+, but DVfilm will do it for $20,000 [link] (http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm) (that's 2K though)

We are offering a service for Red users, here is how it would work: you give us the Redcode raw files and your edited, color corrected HD proxy. It would have to be done using a special version of the Raylight DVCPROHD codec which has links in each frame to the Raw frames.

We conform the raw files to your cut by using the links, handle the recording of the negative (at 4K), the optical soundtrack, and the print. The actual scanning would be done by Laser Pacific (Kodak). All of this would be done at a lower price than going directly to LP with your raw files since they would have to either conform by hand or record the HD proxy (at lower res of course).

If there's interest in doing this let us know, http://dvfilm.com

[Thomas Mathai]

We are offering a service for Red users, here is how it would work: you give us the Redcode raw files and your edited, color corrected HD proxy. It would have to be done using a special version of the Raylight DVCPROHD codec which has links in each frame to the Raw frames.

We conform the raw files to your cut by using the links, handle the recording of the negative (at 4K), the optical soundtrack, and the print. The actual scanning would be done by Laser Pacific (Kodak). All of this would be done at a lower price than going directly to LP with your raw files since they would have to either conform by hand or record the HD proxy (at lower res of course).

If there's interest in doing this let us know, http://dvfilm.com

How do you handle the color matching of the HD Proxy to the Raw? What if there is a lot of specialized secondary grading?

[mvb]

How do you handle the color matching of the HD Proxy to the Raw? What if there is a lot of specialized secondary grading?

Basically we would take your project in After Effects, or Final Cut Pro or whatever you used for the color correction, and run a render through it where the correction is being applied to the full res frames instead of the proxy. The same thing happens right now in Raylight for example when you color correct in a low-res mode and then switch to the high-res mode for final render (there is no substitution of files, or recutting involved, it is handled automatically by the codec using the data links that are hidden in the proxy). If both the Raw and the proxy use the same color scale then the results are the same. Of course we would check it shot by shot to make sure.

Two other possibilities: we provide the software and you do the rendering yourself, (which might take a long time) or, you bring the proxy and the Raw files here and we do a supervised correction from scratch with our Rembrandt color correction system.

[donatello b]

"we do a supervised correction from scratch with our Rembrandt color correction "

gotta watch the use of the word "scratch" .. isn't scratch a real time CC , editor that can handle RED 4k data ??
so is that you do a supervised CC from scratch and then use rembrandt for the film out ??

[Paris Remillard]

Going back to what people were saying before about just waiting for distribution or waiting for D-Cinema to be ubiquitous, if Red does with the price of 4k projectors anything like what they've done to the price of 4k cameras, theater owners will surely respond the same way that we all have to the camera. I'm only wildly speculating here, but if we take Red One as compared to other cameras as an example, we're looking at a differnce in price of somewhere around 10 to 1, or more. The Sony SXRD 4k projector is I think I read around $90,000-100,000. Again this is just speculation, but is it possible that Red might be able to make a 4k projector in the $9,000-10,000 range? Are the components that much more expensive or difficult to manufacture than the camera? I know that this doesn't solve the problem of distribution and deliverables right now. But depending on when they release their projectors, it could be a faster transition than expected. Just guessing...

Or if the price is that low, you could just buy a projector or two or five instead of doing a film-out, and drive around showing your movie out of the back of your truck. But that's a whole nuther distribution model entirely.

[mvb]

"we do a supervised correction from scratch with our Rembrandt color correction "

gotta watch the use of the word "scratch" .. isn't scratch a real time CC , editor that can handle RED 4k data ??
so is that you do a supervised CC from scratch and then use rembrandt for the film out ??

Rembrandt is real time becasue it works with proxies just as I described. It cannot be slowed down by large frame sizes because you use a format like DVCPROHD for the proxy which can play back with corrections in real time.

However what I meant by scratch is that the color correction work would start with the raw data from the camera if possible, and each shot timed by the colorist with the filmmaker, instead of starting with frames that were already corrected.

[Anupam]

I may be the only one looking at filmmaking this way, but my target is not a large theatrical distribution. (If a deal were offered, then that would be o.k.) My intention is to put something digital on a harddrive, try to promote it at the existing digital projection theatres, and go straight to dvd. If I have something that clicks, word-of-mouth will spread and the dvd will sell. If not, I'll make another one.
I have successfully conducted a road show regarding digital projection system using GDC (http://www.gdc-tech.com) 2K Digital Cinema playout server along with a Panasonic DLP Projector in the Northeast India. My main interest on the show was to make the awareness of the Digital Cinema. As i was believing that the RED Digital Cinema will be emerged a huge market in Indian Cinema as soon as it enter into the region. Many of the regional film industry in India are now losing their business and production as well .... as the market is shifted to DVD and CD ........ reason I believe is the poor theatrical projections and the theatre owner are sticked with the old infrastructure and traditional distribution process.... as they were not having the secure business potential .... though the Bollywood is hapenning...
So once the the digital film making start without the 35mm, and the regional filmmakers and producer are thru with entire workflow...the demand of digital projection will definitely grow. ........ Now I am undertaking an RnD work for designing a less expensive PC/MAC base digital projection system using multi projection system...... anybody have better ideas please flash it on the forum....

With best

Anupam Saikia
http://www.xaansa.com
Mumbai

[LEON]

There are labs in SE Asia that will do filmout with prints at reasonable costs
I know oriental in Thailand, do you know good ones that would
properly transfer 4K to 35 ?

[mezmo]

Hi Manjeet,
I have an option for you at a post facility in New Zealand.
If you are able to rough conform your film in
Final Cut Pro and Redcine to DPX files or 1080pHD 444 they can
prepare & grade a 2/4K digital master to disk for film out.
Pricing would be good as you would be one of the first thru
this new facility. They use IQ and Pablo for this and the film
burn would be thru Weta. LOR & King Kong.
NZ dollar is a bit below the US dollar and lot below the Euro at the moment.
Other options would be Thailand, Hong Kong, Indonesia.
A massive new lab is being set up on mainland China, don't know much
about it, a few Australians have gone to work there.
Color management and lab work can be an issue in some of these countries
and the final print quality would probably not meet the standard of
that found in New Zealand or Australia. I'm sure some form of DI is possible in India,
you might want to look into that first.


Send me a private message if interested in the NZ option.
Mezmo

[mezmo]

Going back to what people were saying before about just waiting for distribution or waiting for D-Cinema to be ubiquitous, if Red does with the price of 4k projectors anything like what they've done to the price of 4k cameras, theater owners will surely respond the same way that we all have to the camera. I'm only wildly speculating here, but if we take Red One as compared to other cameras as an example, we're looking at a differnce in price of somewhere around 10 to 1, or more. The Sony SXRD 4k projector is I think I read around $90,000-100,000. Again this is just speculation, but is it possible that Red might be able to make a 4k projector in the $9,000-10,000 range? Are the components that much more expensive or difficult to manufacture than the camera? I know that this doesn't solve the problem of distribution and deliverables right now. But depending on when they release their projectors, it could be a faster transition than expected. Just guessing...

Or if the price is that low, you could just buy a projector or two or five instead of doing a film-out, and drive around showing your movie out of the back of your truck. But that's a whole nuther distribution model entirely.

Hi parisrem,
Unfortunatly the real money in film distribution is in multi screen release.
200-300+ screens. That way you can take advantage of the rather large
promotional P&A spent required to get a film out there in any given
market. Releasing on a small amount of screens will make you a small
amount of money, if that's all you've spent on making the film, (a small
amount of money) then that's fine, It's all good.
If at some point you or someone else want to give your film a bigger
release, then you have to join the FILM CLUB.
At the moment and probably for the next decade this requires a film print
as about 90% of cinemas worldwide are still running film.
You may say as some have suggested here that I only want to release
my film digitally in the US alone.
Given the fact that only about 1-2% of Independant Films (not studio films)made in the US find multiscreeen digital release you would have to make 98 films in one given year to get 1 or 2 *picked up* for this kind of multiscreen theatricial release. Or get Lucky

My point is, at the moment film release gives the Independant film maker
a broader opportunity to find a market and release for their projects.
This is a good thing and this may suffer with the advent of digital release.
Many here are in a big hurry to dump film and get digital going but we
should proceed with caution.
The control and encription technology required to go along with some
larger(studio) digital releases could do major damage to what is pretty
much (on a global basis) an existing Independant Film Distribution business.
This would be a bad thing.
Like you I'd like to see companies like Red offer digital alternatives,
with low cost high quality digital projection, so we can keep the distribution
business independant, still in business, and able to release our Indie films
on a multiscreen global basis.
Mezmo

[petrie]

I was reading about video for industrial broadcast ans heard sony shows are playing at 230m,ps waht format they use: avi? or dpx

is it true that high bitrates are used
ome more questions and how runs for a 4k movie at maxinum quality, is it true thye still cant match film quality even using dalsa thomosn viper or red

would someone describe the principal formats and how much they swaloww for a hour film,in dpx ,raw or other formats

dpx -??
avi? gigabytesçthanks sergio

[Dalibor Fencl]

Manjeet, I do not really understand your comparison between RED images print back to film and DI.

As you wrote when shooting digitaly you skip the step of scaning your negativ film to do a digital grading.
But after that there is no reason for different price. Print back to film a 2k-4k film scan or print to film 2k-4k RED images involves the same technique (ARRI scanner) thus the same cost.


antoine

I agree, but you probably mean ARRI laser (for printing to film), not ARRI scanner (which is telecine).

[number6]

Going back to what people were saying before about just waiting for distribution or waiting for D-Cinema to be ubiquitous, if Red does with the price of 4k projectors anything like what they've done to the price of 4k cameras, theater owners will surely respond the same way that we all have to the camera. I'm only wildly speculating here, but if we take Red One as compared to other cameras as an example, we're looking at a differnce in price of somewhere around 10 to 1, or more. The Sony SXRD 4k projector is I think I read around $90,000-100,000. Again this is just speculation, but is it possible that Red might be able to make a 4k projector in the $9,000-10,000 range? Are the components that much more expensive or difficult to manufacture than the camera? I know that this doesn't solve the problem of distribution and deliverables right now. But depending on when they release their projectors, it could be a faster transition than expected. Just guessing...

Or if the price is that low, you could just buy a projector or two or five instead of doing a film-out, and drive around showing your movie out of the back of your truck. But that's a whole nuther distribution model entirely.


I have successfully conducted a road show regarding digital projection system using GDC (http://www.gdc-tech.com) 2K Digital Cinema playout server along with a Panasonic DLP Projector in the Northeast India. My main interest on the show was to make the awareness of the Digital Cinema. As i was believing that the RED Digital Cinema will be emerged a huge market in Indian Cinema as soon as it enter into the region. Many of the regional film industry in India are now losing their business and production as well .... as the market is shifted to DVD and CD ........ reason I believe is the poor theatrical projections and the theatre owner are sticked with the old infrastructure and traditional distribution process.... as they were not having the secure business potential .... though the Bollywood is hapenning...
So once the the digital film making start without the 35mm, and the regional filmmakers and producer are thru with entire workflow...the demand of digital projection will definitely grow. ........ Now I am undertaking an RnD work for designing a less expensive PC/MAC base digital projection system using multi projection system...... anybody have better ideas please flash it on the forum....

With best

Anupam Saikia
http://www.xaansa.com
Mumbai

Anupam, If I understand you correctly, I think you and I have the same vision. I eventually see neighborhood projection houses, privately ouned or perhaps even built and ouned by communities, who digitally show movies pretty much on demand.

The business model could even be that a bunch of these local projection houses would band together as co-operatives and put up money to finance a movie, with the co-operative movie houses receiving free and unlimited projection rights to these movies. The producer/director would have to present his or her script to the co-operatives' representatives and would have to adhere to their moral values in making the film, but it would create an outlet for fresh movie makers to get started. (I could never work under such constraints, but there would be many who would be willing to do so to get started)

If you are suggesting that movie houses can become more intimate and locally situated, then I agree with your thinking. I also think the technology is about to explode so that it will be very inexpensive to set-up. And I certainly agree that the RED One Digital Cinema camera will create a quick out turn from camera to projector. World wide, movies are going to be shot a mile-a-minute.

[Camerasguru]

Hi Manjeet,

I am Ravi in LA. What is your email? I need to correspond with you. My email is Guru.Enterprises@gmail.com

[David Mullen ASC]

World wide, movies are going to be shot a mile-a-minute.

Creating a bottleneck in distribution, let alone, how people are going to know which of these thousands of movies to see. Just this last week, I saw "Blade Runner", "Assassination of Jesse James", "Michael Clayton"... I'm seeing "Caravaggio" tonight... and I still need to get to the theaters and "Lust, Caution", "Elizabeth: The Golden Age" and a half-dozen other movies before the Christmas glut of more movies arrives, and that's while I'm between jobs before I get too busy to watch movies!

So I worry that someday, they will say the same thing about movies as they do now about poetry: "more people write poetry than read poetry."

The new phrase will be "more people are making independent features than are watching independent features."

[number6]

Creating a bottleneck in distribution, let alone, how people are going to know which of these thousands of movies to see. Just this last week, I saw "Blade Runner", "Assassination of Jesse James", "Michael Clayton"... I'm seeing "Caravaggio" tonight... and I still need to get to the theaters and "Lust, Caution", "Elizabeth: The Golden Age" and a half-dozen other movies before the Christmas glut of more movies arrives, and that's while I'm between jobs before I get too busy to watch movies!

So I worry that someday, they will say the same thing about movies as they do now about poetry: "more people write poetry than read poetry."

The new phrase will be "more people are making independent features than are watching independent features."

Hah! David, your "work" would be another's dream (watching all those movies). And while I see the bottleneck of distribution you speak of at present, it's just my (admittedly limited) experience that everything is becoming new so fast that THAT may be in the process of change. When I saw red, I mean RED, I saw an unbroken line from scene to camera to computer to digital projector. With my general knowledge about that process, I had (have) the hubris to think I can do this myself.

I've caught some grief on this forum and in PMs as well, about that belief. And while I would prefer to do things in the traditional "assembly line" manner because it would be faster, I am unable to do so. But I now have a way forward that I understand and that will allow me to take my time and get it doun the way I see it. I can't play in the Olympic sized swimming pool, but I can splash around in the wading pool.

But as for the quote: "more people write poetry than read poetry", there was also the one that said: "there are more people making a living off cancer than there are dying from it", yet cancer is as popular as ever.

Cancer and movies don't usually correlate, but who knows, movies may become more popular than ever if they become more story driven.

[Babu Kantamneni]

Hi Folks,

The moment I learnt about RED camera, I was about excited the new possibilities it promised in the world of cinema. Even promoted it to my friends, who might chip in to buy the camera. I am a aspiring film maker currently working in Bombay film industry as an assistant director. If any one of you have been to the city of Mumbai (Bombay) you would have noticed its flair for films. It produces the maximum no. of films in the world and it could buy tons of RED cameras! I wrote a blog on RED on a site, which is read by lot of film industry people:-
http://passionforcinema.com/a-promising-new-hope-for-independent-film-makers-digital-cinema-by-red-camera/

After reading quite a lot of threads and comments found answers to lot of my questions but one thing, which concerns me:-
.To make 35mm prints from REDraw code, one will have to do the color correction and then print it to make 35mm version. This process would be lot simpler than Digital itermediate step as it would ommit the stage of scanning the negative, but color correction and print would remain. So the main question is, how much would it cost to make a 35mm print after CC? Will it be comparatively lot lesser than conventional DI? I heard a talk about using Nitris, how much would it cost on Nitris? I wuld be very happy to get a 2k print at a resonable cost.


I would be happy to assist the RED team if they have an eye on a huge Indian market in every possible way!

Thanks,

Manjeet
In the next 5 years there will be at least 10 to 15000 digital projection theatres in India.By the time you come up with a good movie there will be options in every big city in India.
You will have plety of Reds fully enabled with all the accesaries in India including my 2 by Jan 08.
If you want to to play with them I will let you for free.Drinks are on you.
Ok to PM me.
My 2 c
babu

[Gunleik Groven]

Well, I'd like a trip to India... -;)

I think what IS really interesting is what Mr Newman wrote about the Indian distribution model vs DCI.

I think the future may well lay in India...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=93532#post93532

(But that's "only" 300 screens)

Cheers!

G

[mezmo]

Creating a bottleneck in distribution, let alone, how people are going to know which of these thousands of movies to see. Just this last week, I saw "Blade Runner", "Assassination of Jesse James", "Michael Clayton"... I'm seeing "Caravaggio" tonight... and I still need to get to the theaters and "Lust, Caution", "Elizabeth: The Golden Age" and a half-dozen other movies before the Christmas glut of more movies arrives, and that's while I'm between jobs before I get too busy to watch movies!

So I worry that someday, they will say the same thing about movies as they do now about poetry: "more people write poetry than read poetry."

The new phrase will be "more people are making independent features than are watching independent features."

Hi David,
The problem is a lot of the studio films you mention above force a lot of
local (independent) content off screens in countries outside the US.
The films you mentioned are good movies but more often than not they
are packaged to exhibitors with a lot of other crappy studio content.
This content would probably have a hard time finding release if it was
not included in the package exhibition system.
Local content is pushed aside because Independent Theatre owners have
no choice, and in order to show the latest LA blockbuster they have to also screen the garbage. Earnings are cross colateralized over all the movies in
the package so that even the crappy movies still make money.
Is this a fair system?
The point is that people don't get a choice to see a good diversity of
content under the present system. They stay away from the cinema
and watch reality TV or go on the internet.
Most of the time the films discussed here are in considerable profit
by the time they get to screens outside the US so why destroy the
opportunity for people outside the US to show local content in local cinemas.
The greed word comes to mind.
Anything that helps this stupid system change is a fantastic thing.
Don't be concerned about people making too many movies because there
are already thousands of fantastic movies made worldwide that nobody got the opportunity to see in a cinema.
Cheers Mezmo

[mezmo]

Hi Guys,
What happened here?
Am I living in a time warp or did a whole
lot of posts get dumped?
Anyone Mezmo

[Babu Kantamneni]

Hi Guys,
What happened here?
Am I living in a time warp or did a whole
lot of posts get dumped?
Anyone Mezmo

Anything from10/15 to today at 3pm wiped out. simple server problem or
Sabotage

[Manjeet Singh]

In the next 5 years there will be at least 10 to 15000 digital projection theatres in India.By the time you come up with a good movie there will be options in every big city in India.
You will have plety of Reds fully enabled with all the accesaries in India including my 2 by Jan 08.
If you want to to play with them I will let you for free.Drinks are on you.
Ok to PM me.
My 2 c
babu

Hi Babu, wow! left a comment earlier, which dissapered:) also PMed you...where r u in India? Would like to get in touch with you buddy! you can reach me at manjeetpfc@yahoo.com

[Manjeet Singh]

Anything from10/15 to today at 3pm wiped out. simple server problem or
Sabotage
Babu, sent you a PM pls check

cheers!

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Hi David,
The problem is a lot of the studio films you mention above force a lot of
local (independent) content off screens in countries outside the US.
The films you mentioned are good movies but more often than not they
are packaged to exhibitors with a lot of other crappy studio content.
This content would probably have a hard time finding release if it was
not included in the package exhibition system.
Local content is pushed aside because Independent Theatre owners have
no choice, and in order to show the latest LA blockbuster they have to also screen the garbage. Earnings are cross colateralized over all the movies in
the package so that even the crappy movies still make money.
Is this a fair system?
The point is that people don't get a choice to see a good diversity of
content under the present system. They stay away from the cinema
and watch reality TV or go on the internet.
Most of the time the films discussed here are in considerable profit
by the time they get to screens outside the US so why destroy the
opportunity for people outside the US to show local content in local cinemas.
The greed word comes to mind.
Anything that helps this stupid system change is a fantastic thing.
Don't be concerned about people making too many movies because there
are already thousands of fantastic movies made worldwide that nobody got the opportunity to see in a cinema.
Cheers Mezmo

We have the power to change the distribution system by persuading our Local and National Governments to force any multiplex to assign a screen that will only show independent movies (then all we'll have to do is sleep with the person in charge.. lol). It's sort of easy..
Also Elizabeth is a rubbish movie: England is saved as the sole bastion for Liberty, and Walter Raleigh is off to sail back to America to build a shining new city.. Filmed and graded like an advert. Boring, predictable, nonsense...

[M Most]

We have the power to change the distribution system by persuading our Local and National Governments to force any multiplex to assign a screen that will only show independent movies (then all we'll have to do is sleep with the person in charge.. lol). It's sort of easy..

Not in the USA. This kind of interference in private enterprise is absolutely unacceptable unless public airwaves are involved, when it would fall under the auspices of the FCC.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Not in the USA. This kind of interference in private enterprise is absolutely unacceptable unless public airwaves are involved, when it would fall under the auspices of the FCC.

I know what you mean, but every company needs local government approval to build in the zone it wants to build in; or to have an area zoned for entertainment etc; a clause requiring the movie theatre to provide a screen etc for indies could be written into the contract before building. Hence it would be another commercial consideration for any company to consider, just like health care for its employees or obeying environmental legislation..

:weight_lift:

[M Most]

I know what you mean, but every company needs local government approval to build in the zone it wants to build in; or to have an area zoned for entertainment etc; a clause requiring the movie theatre to provide a screen etc for indies could be written into the contract before building. Hence it would be another commercial consideration for any company to consider, just like health care for its employees or obeying environmental legislation..


I hate to belabor this, but what exactly would the tangible benefit to society be that would justify this? Is it sensible for a government in a country with free speech to force businessmen - i.e., theater owners - to give the public a continuing supply of things they don't usually want to see in the first place? Do you really see the general population clamoring for the ability to see independent movies? Are you serious in comparing government enforced screenings of movies to the need for health care??

[chuck colburn]

I know what you mean, but every company needs local government approval to build in the zone it wants to build in; or to have an area zoned for entertainment etc; a clause requiring the movie theatre to provide a screen etc for indies could be written into the contract before building. Hence it would be another commercial consideration for any company to consider, just like health care for its employees or obeying environmental legislation..

:weight_lift:


Hahahaha!

That's tantamount to saying an ice cream palour has to sell yougurt becauses it's healthier for you.

[Joseph Mastantuono]

Rembrandt is real time becasue it works with proxies just as I described. It cannot be slowed down by large frame sizes because you use a format like DVCPROHD for the proxy which can play back with corrections in real time.

However what I meant by scratch is that the color correction work would start with the raw data from the camera if possible, and each shot timed by the colorist with the filmmaker, instead of starting with frames that were already corrected.

So then you do a full render from the full files? I can't imagine doing a full DI working in 4:2:2 8-bit space (which is what dvcpro hd is). I don't know the Rembrandt, but that strikes me as a bit strange. Is that just for a color pass with the client in the room?

[Jason A. Evans]

Anyone have any thoughts about possible cheaper filmouts in Southeast Asia (Thailand, Singapore, Phillippinnes, etc)?

[Jeff Coatney]

Anyone have any thoughts about possible cheaper filmouts in Southeast Asia (Thailand, Singapore, Phillippinnes, etc)?

I saw Star Wars, Episode III, Revenge of the Sith for sale on DVD at the Hong Kong border crossing a full two weeks before the film was released in theatres. We bought one for $3.00 US to send to Lucasfilm upon our return. The store we bought it from was located in the shopping mall run by the Chinese government, surrounded by Border Police and soldiers. I would be careful about where I sent my intellectual property. You may get an unbeatable price, but is it worth undercutting an entire exhibition market to get it? Besides, Red Ray changes the economics of filmed exhibition. Do you really NEED a filmout? I think the market for 4K filmout will grow, but mostly in the archiving sector.

[percy fung]

We do film out in Hong Kong, 120 moives a years, 2 full length movies at least in a week.
We have served many international companies, including US
We would to extend our service to you
Pls visit www.digitalmagic.com.hk
www.heavyoptical.com.hk

Also could reach me for costing details at
percy@digitalmagic.com.hk

[Bang WOW Bang]

Many Arrilasers and others in HKG and in BKK to do film out but not for me though.

HK: DMC@Cyberport/ IVE-Kwun Tong / Shaw Studio / ASIA Legend /
BKK: Onpa and many others ....Katana, Oriental Post, The Post - BKK etc.

Also for Digital Cinema Sound mastering ( MBS, a endorsed DTS and Dobly partner in ASIA )

My belief is Films and Film projectors are going very soon to stay forever in the Museum.

RED RAY + REDCODE based Digital Projection system will be coming in early 2009, may I ask why we need " Film-out " ?

USD25K for 90 mins then each Film copy at USD1.3K for x amout of Film based Cinemas !!!

Cheers,

Stewart

In HKG, DMC@Cyberport

[john monceaux]

Hello
I can help you with this.
please visit my website at
www.opticalcameraservice.com