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View Full Version : Stuart, how about sharpening to REDCINE?



Greg Voevodsky
01-12-2007, 11:18 PM
Hi Stuart,

I know Red team in general hates sharpening and the video / reality look... but it does have its place in narrative filmmaking - as a news / video look - or for those of us who want a more reality (less romantic chocolate creamy look).

Will you please add a video look to red code / redcine - so when we want a sharpened look, we can do it. Rendering in After Effects or other programs after the fact will be long and painful.

I read earlier that you always wanted to make a sharpening filter that you liked and with adjustments I hope could make it look dreadful like others. ;-)

Will RED have a sharperness setting and or redcode and redcine?

If you have the time, please add this, or as one of the first downloadable updates. Thanks.

Don Woods
01-13-2007, 12:07 AM
This is something that can be added latter as a filter in you NLE. I think it would not be a good idea to go sharpening your negitive... What if you decide it is to much. Or you don't like the look. They your screwed. REDCINE is not a tool to design looks. It is a tool to process a negitive image an any formatt you want. It is not a DI and i think the people that are looking at it like that are going to be locking them selfs in on looks and not being able to change them very easily.

Then again that just my 2 cents

Brook Willard
01-13-2007, 02:30 AM
I've always felt that "news" footage shot on film [or a high-end digital cinema camera] that is modified to look like video is downright ridiculous. If I'm watching a 35mm print of a film, I don't want to see news in the same resolution... it's ridiculous. Adding sharpening, scan lines and a new gamma curve will help, yes, but nobody ever "breaks" the footage enough to make it look as bad as news looks.

So I'd shoot your mock news footage at a lower resolution... maybe 720p RGB... and scale it up to 4K to make it look as bad as we know news should look. Even destroy the curves to lose the top and bottom few stops.

[/rant]

Rob Lohman
01-13-2007, 06:41 AM
I have to agree with IMGentertainment. Export your shot footage from REDCINE in HD with basic correction applied. Or if you shot in HD load that straight up into a QuickTime supporting NLE.

Do color correction / sharpness or other controls in your NLE or a DI tool.

Graeme Nattress
01-13-2007, 07:49 AM
Rob is correct. However, there may, and I repeat, only may, be some sharpening tools of the traditional kind, for those who don't have the time to adopt a more theoretically correct workflow. In true Douglas Adams' style, if we do adopt said controls, there would be a warning "do not press this button".

Graeme

Don Woods
01-13-2007, 11:56 AM
A big read button that when you push it a prompet comes up that says. "You are about to perminatly distory your negitive. Unless you got a big raid and can keep more then one version of this don't continue." But I can see a sharpening tool in REDCINE but only for slight enhancements. Could come in handy if you are using slightly then perfect glass.

Matt Uhry
01-13-2007, 08:23 PM
Permanently Destroy ? As I understood Redcine processes the Redcode Raw in to something else either your offline cutting version say DVCPRO-HD or pull selects from your EDL into something "final".

Don't you still have your camera orig. Redcode Raw data? essentially unmolested?

I'm not a big fan of sharpening either and it's fine with me if you don't include it in Redcine ( but I would have to admit to a occasional bit of unsharp mask now and then )

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com

Brian Ferguson
01-13-2007, 11:12 PM
. In true Douglas Adams' style, if we do adopt said controls, there would be a warning "do not press this button".

Graeme[/QUOTE]

For all the trouble people have gone through to make video more film like for decades, adding Pro 35's, 24p, Filmlook etc. It seems ironic that there is a request to make a digital cinema camera more video like.

And also in D. Adams mode "thanks for all the fish"

Stuart English
01-14-2007, 04:09 PM
Nothing that you do in REDCINE is destructive to the original camera RAW data.

Kjetil Haugen
01-14-2007, 08:18 PM
For all the trouble people have gone through to make video more film like for decades, adding Pro 35's, 24p, Filmlook etc. It seems ironic that there is a request to make a digital cinema camera more video like.


Well said. I've been thinking the same thing!

GlennChan
01-14-2007, 09:57 PM
If you capture imagery onto a CMOS or CCD sensor, you need to add optical low pass filtering/"blurry glass" in front to avoid aliasing.

If you are capturing with a CCD or CMOS sensor with proper OLPF, you may want to 'undo' the intentional blur from the OLPF. I don't believe it's possible to entirely undo the intentional blur, but applying some de-convolution might give you ideal image quality?

2- To approach things differently, you might want some processing and OLPF to emulate film's MTF (modulation transfer function) and (lack of) aliasing characteristics.

3- Finishing packages may not necessarily have (good) de-convolution tools or film MTF emulation tools. Some perhaps it may be smart to implement that stuff in Redcine.

Stokestack
01-17-2007, 04:03 PM
I hope the developers waste no time at all on effects that are already available in (and best relegated to) post tools.

Corrado Silveri
01-18-2007, 03:19 AM
Agree. There are already a lot of specialized tools.
Even with Photoshop, for example, you can batch an Unsharp Mask to a .tga sequence, and you're done.
And the Unsharp Mask of Photoshop is a clever and precise tool...

Martin Drew
01-18-2007, 09:37 AM
I can see a case for applying certain type of image processing filters in RedCine. Things like lens distortion correction, abberation corrections, etc, any non-dynamic, continuous filters (sharpening could fit in here). Maybe RedCine could have an architecture which allows plug-ins.

M

Stephen Williams
01-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Well said. I've been thinking the same thing!

Hi,

I think if you want your Red footage to look like video look, hire a video cameraman from a local TV station.

Stephen

Jim Arthurs
01-19-2007, 11:57 PM
I can see a case for applying certain type of image processing filters in RedCine. Things like lens distortion correction, abberation corrections, etc, any non-dynamic, continuous filters (sharpening could fit in here). Maybe RedCine could have an architecture which allows plug-ins.
M

I agree, the extra resolution with the 4K original will allow fairly heavy distortion correction for a very sharp 2K finish... I do this all the time with the wide angle range of my HVX and when using add-on wide angle adapters with it... when the finish is SD of course, as this technique works best when you can post at a resolution less than your taking format. My HVX wide angle shots have the characteristics of ultra expensive rectilinear lenses using this method.

GlennChan
01-21-2007, 12:09 AM
One reason why you might want to implement deconvolution in Redcine is to implement better algorithms.

For an example on still images, see
http://www.focusmagic.com/exampleunsharpmask.htm

It's possible to get better results than unsharp mask.

Graeme Nattress
01-21-2007, 07:51 AM
Glenn, Deconvolution is clever, but for it to have any reasonable amount of blur correction, it's also going to introduce ringing artifacts too. Especially with it being iterative, it will take a very long time on a 4k image, and the iterative nature can allow the artifacts to bleed across the image. (at least in the images I've seen that have been used with a deconvolution).

Certainly it's worth looking at, but I don't think it's a magic cure.

Graeme

GlennChan
01-21-2007, 05:25 PM
Doesn't unsharp mask (or FIR filters) cause ringing too?

I wasn't saying that deconvolution would be a magic cure, it's just that a little deconvolution would be nice to have.

Graeme Nattress
01-21-2007, 06:00 PM
Glenn, yes they do, and that's why I don't like them. For sharpening I prefer a mild amount of edge dependent warp sharpening, which cannot produce ringing. I also use a edge depentand averaging process that sharpens up edges and doesn't produce ringing, but does reduce noise.

I think that sharpening and enhancing data from the RED camera is going to make one hell of a nice R&D project as for many it's going to be the first time they've got high quality high resolution motion footage to work with. And hence I'm looking forwards to whatever you come up with too, Glenn!

Graeme

GlennChan
01-21-2007, 10:42 PM
Eh, you can always move the monitor away. ;)

2- Some of my untested ideas to increase sharpness would be:
--Apply enough deconvolution to counteract the effect of OLPF. Beyond that, other approaches are more appropriate. Applying too much deconvolution wouldn't make sense and would cause ringing.
--(Area-based) Tone mapping / HDR companding would likely incidentally improve acutance. A little bit of this would be a good idea anyways.
--Increasing acutance is a cheat that would 'improve' sharpness. Perceived resolution is half the battle though! It's ridiculous how much a difference it makes.
--If the viewer is sitting too far from the display, there may be tricks that can overcome the optical blurring that occurs.
--IMO, the HVS applies some sort of 'vernier scanning'. It's able to detect alignments and details smaller than the size of a photosite by moving the eye. I think that simple sharpen filters and USM works because of this.
--Doing sharpening in the linear light domain may be superior. You can sort of see this in Photoshop, although its levels filter doesn't round properly (which causes big shifts for low values).
--Don't move the camera erratically. Vernier scanning only works on stationary images, or on movement that the eye can track.
--A sharpening algorithm that works hand in hand with noise reduction may be a good idea, as one affects the other.

--If you know that the target display device is a LCD, you might be able to do sub-pixel tricks like Cleartype in Windows XP.

Antoine Baumann
01-24-2007, 08:32 AM
Hi am clearly not for a 1000 effects RedCine, but in my mind RedCine is like the photo labo, where you make some color and gama descision. A bit like the raw plugin in Photoshop. Then you choose which format and codec to export to and bang. If you made some bad decisions on the color and gamma corrections, you can always go back to your original raw files and reprocess them.

antoine.

Rob Lohman
01-24-2007, 12:40 PM
antoine: exactly!

Andrew M.
01-24-2007, 12:57 PM
I guess it is what we are getting in terms of user friendly interface?

http://www.bildschirmarbeiter.com/fun_9675_mega-touchscreen.html

How do you pronounce RedCine?
Each time I am talking to people here about it, it sounds like Medicine with R Instead of M? Redicine Is it how we will pronounce it?
After all it is kind of Medicine for current film making market, isn't it?

Andrew

Graeme Nattress
01-24-2007, 01:00 PM
I doubt it - that's an attrocious GUI IMHO - you'd be warn out in 30 seconds of using it :-)

I personally pronounce it RED sinny. In that RED is pronounced as RED, and CINE is sinny :-)

Graeme

Rob Lohman
01-24-2007, 01:21 PM
I love that stuff, BUT, I don't think it's too practical for the stuff we do. Unless it's a combination of such a UI with something else (like a mouse & keyboard).

Flicking through clips & timelines might very work well that way, as does resizing & repositioning. However, keyboard input & precise controls sound pretty impractical.

I'm waiting for that RED-BRAIN (tm) :D