4k REDCODE to Compact flash...

[Jarred Land]

in action....

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178823483.jpg

[Mark L. Pederson]

rockin to 4K or 1080?

[Jarred Land]

to 4k.. the 1080 on the screen is for something else :)

[Mark L. Pederson]

yeah baby!

[Brook Willard]

That is so cool...

Which camera is that?

[Hrvoje Simic]

Extreme IV ?

[Ace]

sex..

[Brian Kaz]

So... how well did recording 4k to that card work out?
**edited for the sensitive and cranky**

Sweet pic, tho. Thanks.

[Brook Willard]

Looking at this picture... and knowing that it's recording to the card... it makes me wonder if you guys are planning on having the card slot go a little deeper? That's a tricky little snag point that might be safer if it was flush [think of an EX34 slot on a MacBook Pro] or behind a door [a la Canon SLRs].

[damonbots]

So... how well did recording 4k to that card work out?
Also, is it just me, or does that rear display look photoshopped in? Weird.

Sweet pic, tho. Thanks.

bokeh distorted the display a bit. I love the display. Sweet and simple. Nice shot!

[Jaime Vallés]

Very cool. What is the capacity of that CF card? Is there more than 1 slot for the cards, like P2 slots on the HVX200? Nice photo!

[Mark L. Pederson]

Also, is it just me, or does that rear display look photoshopped in? Weird.


That is weird!

Even stranger is that fact that ELVIS is sitting in my SCRATCH SUITE color grading the Zapruder film -

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

"Also, is it just me, or does that rear display look photoshopped in?"
Yes its just you.LOOK at the picture, you obviously know very little about swing/shift,large format or even the Lens Baby;)
Do you really think that they would not have corrected the 1080 if it was indeed a composite

JJ Dop

RED #?

[Brian Kaz]

Seeing as I've never once said anything negative about the camera, the accessories or the company EVER in the year I've been following this project (and bought into), I'm glad my goofy, offhand remark could elicit such a reaction.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Hmm, I'm still tempted to shoot CF possibly.

[TimothyD]

It seems like due to the nature of this project people are always on the defensive. There have been so many skeptics and just plain jackasses who are trying to attack Red that it is no wonder people snap so easily. On the other hand, I think we all need to keep this in mind when someone says something that may be interpreted as negative. Maybe they were just trying to be objective, maybe they were joking, maybe they didn't understand something, or maybe we are misinterpreting what they meant...

This camera is so revolutionary that I think we should really just all relax and know that it is going to prove itself with or without us getting worked up every time someone comes to the board and starts trolling.

On the other hand, if someone is obviously being inflammatory for no reason, they should obviously be banned.

At any rate, I don't think that Kaz's remark was inflammatory myself. There are plenty of legitimate reasons that they might want to photoshop that pic, what if there was some info that they weren't ready to release on the screen? The fact that they didn't is immaterial. Ultimately, the point is just that the camera is working with a flash card in 4k.

[Jeremy Hughes]

What's the compression ratio and what's the capacity of the Compact Flash? Further more, how much 4K REDCODE RAW can you fit on it?

[TimothyD]

What's the compression ratio and what's the capacity of the Compact Flash? Further more, how much 4K REDCODE RAW can you fit on it?

And how much is the current street price for a card of (X) capacity??? How will CF prices compare to the Red Drive? Probably a lot more expensive per gig I'm guessing???

(Edit: Ok, so I was being lazy. I searched a bit and see that 16 gig is the biggest for now and is about 300+)

[Michael Schrengohst]

I don't see the EVF or LCD?
What are you shooting?
Lets see the ExpressCard add on doing some recording....

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hmm, I'm still tempted to shoot CF possibly.

me too - but how damn handy is it to pull out an Express34 card and just stick it directly into a mac book pro - and open the media in REDCINE right on set ... before you even copy the media off of the card -

[Jarred Land]

So
Also, is it just me, or does that rear display look photoshopped in? Weird.
.

its called shallow depth of field.. if your buying a Red camera, you better get used to it :)

[TimothyD]

its called shallow depth of field.. if your buying a Red camera, you better get used to it :)

Actually that's why I'm going to be shooting either S16 or 2/3":)

Shallow DOF ain't so great for run and gun...

Peace,

Tim

[Brian Kaz]

I've been doing 35mm Digital photography for 3 years now. Believe me, I know what I'm in for.

And seriously, I wasn't remarking like it IS photoshopped. Chill people.

[Jarred Land]

Actually that's why I'm going to be shooting either S16 or 2/3":)

Shallow DOF ain't so great for run and gun...

Peace,

Tim

heh heh unless your a ninja...

[Stephen Williams]

its called shallow depth of field.. if your buying a Red camera, you better get used to it :)

Hi Jarred,

What was the lens & F stop used?

Stephen

[Alexander Nikishin]

me too - but how damn handy is it to pull out an Express34 card and just stick it directly into a mac book pro - and open the media in REDCINE right on set ... before you even copy the media off of the card -

That would be slick, then again, with a little more effort I can use a CF card reader and have the same effect, yet the read speed would be a bit slower as well.

Any idea what the largest express34 card our right now is and how much it runs for?

Edit: I wasn't even aware of it but they now make a firewire card reader, so the reads speed for a CF reader should be up to par with a pcmcia slot.

[TimothyD]

heh heh unless your a ninja...

Yeah, and my ninja skills are not up to par:)

BTW, did anyone from Red read my thread asking about doing Canon and Nikon mounts in addition to PL on the B4 adapter? I would love to be able to switch from 2/3" to still glass in the field... Also, someone said it is impossible. So I'm betting you guys can do it...

Peace,

Tim

[Jannard]

Lets see the ExpressCard add on doing some recording....

The more we look at ExpressCard's performance and standalone format (not SATA), along with it's pricing... the less we like it. It is on the chopping block waiting for me to say "Pull!".

Jim

[fightordie]

I know its a camera forum but you keep doing it and it needs to be corrected.

Your should be changed to

you're : a contraction of you are, which is what you should be using.

[Jeremy Hughes]

The more we look at ExpressCard's performance and standalone format (not SATA), along with it's pricing... the less we like it. It is on the chopping block waiting for me to say "Pull!".

Jim

So is there anything coming in to replace it that you might like?

[Alexander Nikishin]

(Edit: Ok, so I was being lazy. I searched a bit and see that 16 gig is the biggest for now and is about 300+)

The largest CF card that I've seen that's up to the speed requirements of Redcode is the 8gb Sandisk extreme 4 and runs for around $200.

[Michael Ragen]

That looks pretty sweet but I think I'm still going with sata. If the flash is ready along with my camera and the media isn't too much I might just skip shooting with the Reddrive altogether, but still get one for the rental clients of course.

And speaking of ninja skills, how sensitive is the joystick on the Supergrip and how fast can the Red Motor go?

[Jarred Land]

Lexar also makes a 300x compact flash card..

the external Red Drive gives you the best bang for your buck, but sometimes (like stunts and car mounts and helicopters) its good to have solid state.

[Michael Ragen]

Well as I use a jackhammer for a camera platform and i'm constantly getting hit by cars I think I'll use flash. Or maybe I just try to shoot handheld after drinking too much coffee.

Joking aside, on the last run n' gun piece we did, we used an electric scooter with a tripod head mounted between the handlebars with my HVX on top. The P2s held up great on the poorly paved streets of Seattle, but some of the footage might make you a little motion sick.

[Christian Berg]

Nice picture Jarred!
Just curious, will ther be one more inserthole for a second CF card? This would be nice if yor doing long takes on a car or so. What is the maximum record time with a 8GB flash? I Get it to 4-5 minutes. Is that correct?

[Alexander Nikishin]

I haven't been able to find any SATA 1.8" SSD drives, only UATA?

[Michael Schrengohst]

The more we look at ExpressCard's performance and standalone format (not SATA), along with it's pricing... the less we like it. It is on the chopping block waiting for me to say "Pull!".

Jim

Well crap, I guess I need to change my order....
I knew if I ordered accessories I would see
some action...

Are you going to contact those who have ordered ExpressCard modules?

[Michael Schrengohst]

I've been doing 35mm Digital photography for 3 years now. Believe me, I know what I'm in for.

And seriously, I wasn't remarking like it IS photoshopped. Chill people.

I have been a photographer for 33 years now....
Digital for 6.
I quit doing SD video and waited for HD to catch on....
I know what I want to be in for.....

[Stokestack]

Also, is it just me, or does that rear display look photoshopped in? Weird.

It wasn't just you. That's the first thing I thought. But I decided it was probably real, based on the apparently consistent DOF plane between the CF card area, the plug connector, and the near side of the display.

However, I wondered if the extremely shallow DOF was fake. There is some really weird (and displeasing) bokeh on the side of that camera. Look at the vertical smear of the lower groove, and the way there's a sharpened edge to the blur itself:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/740_1178833268.jpg

I've seen bad bokeh from my Canon 20D too; sometimes there are weird, sharper images within the blur of out-of-focus objects, even with no sharpening applied. So in the end, maybe the weirdness lends the blur more credence, since I'd expect fake blur to be executed a lot better.

And, to be somewhat relevant to the original topic, is the data rate 24 MBps, or 27? Because somewhere it seemed to drop down to 24 in statements from Red, and that display shows a "24". I guess the data rate is limited strictly by I/O throughput, not the compressor, because we're talking data rate and not frame rate.

So I'd be interested in why it's necessary to have only one data rate, instead of offering users the ability to max out the I/O capability of the recording medium they've selected. That way, users of faster media wouldn't have to take a quality hit for the sake of slower recording devices that they don't even own.

[Antoine Fabi]

The more we look at ExpressCard's performance and standalone format (not SATA), along with it's pricing... the less we like it. It is on the chopping block waiting for me to say "Pull!".

Jim

that's pure science.

The final steps of the project look like F1 bench tests...hee hee...

[Alexander Nikishin]

What's the compression ratio and what's the capacity of the Compact Flash? Further more, how much 4K REDCODE RAW can you fit on it?

At 27MB/s Redcode you should be able to fit 5 minutes of footage onto an 8gb Sandisk Extreme 4 CF card.

[Mike the beginner]

It is amazing that Compact Flash is looking better as time passes by. I would not be surprised to see 16gb CF within six months and who knows maybe double that by next year.

Naturally i m talking about CF cards with the right speed suitable for red.

With samsung going for hybrid combinations of hard disc/flash drive we could see all sorts of possibilities.


Mike the beginner

[Alexander Nikishin]

Those Samsung hybrid HDD's are awesome.

[Mike the beginner]

Those Samsung hybrid HDD's are awesome.


They do look exciting Alexander. For me they could offer the possibility of pre-record whilst using the red drives if at a later date they became hybrids. Or maybe short bursts of extra frame rates.

We still dont know so much about the red one like if it will do pre-record?

Mike the beginner

[Dominique Grenier]

At 27MB/s Redcode you should be able to fit 5 minutes of footage onto an 8gb Sandisk Extreme 4 CF card.

Not to nit pick, but if you take into consideration the formatted space, you'll get more like 4min36... ( (8000 * 0,925) / 27 ) / 60 ) = 4,6 :bleh:

[Charles Perkins]

so, once it is recorded to the CF card, can we move the shot to the red drive?

[Karl H]

Great to see......but 2 questions, is this recording best quality redcode, or a lower bit rate?

and will this be avaiable at the time of shipping?

[Mike the beginner]

so, once it is recorded to the CF card, can we move the shot to the red drive?


I have asked that same question before but as yet no answer?

Say you are waiting for a good nature/wildlife footage for hours on end and suddenly "it happens" you press record and you have the last six seconds or so, if you record to CF when you press record you are limited in your footage at present to the storge within the card. Would be good if your flash drive recorded everything say 10 seconds before you pressed record and the red drive took over from there on in. The ability to transfer the footage from flash drive to red drive would be really handy.

Mike the beginner

[Dominique Grenier]

Say you are waiting for a good nature/wildlife footage for hours on end and suddenly "it happens" you press record and you have the last six seconds or so, if you record to CF when you press record you are limited in your footage at present to the storge within the card. Would be good if your flash drive recorded everything say 10 seconds before you pressed record and the red drive took over from there on in. The ability to transfer the footage from flash drive to red drive would be really handy.

Now that's something I'd really be interested in. Some sort of pre-roll would be really useful for all sort of situation...

[Mike the beginner]

Great to see......but 2 questions, is this recording best quality redcode, or a lower bit rate?

and will this be avaiable at the time of shipping?

Darkline. Are you talking about the samsung hybrids? If you are then i dont know if the flash part of the HDD/flash drive is currently fast enough.

These hybrids are (i think) being made with camcorders in mind but not 4k cameras........yet.

Mike the beginner

[Mike the beginner]

Now that's something I'd really be interested in. Some sort of pre-roll would be really useful for all sort of situation...

Dare i say it but SONY and Panasonic have it already...surely red will have it!

Come on red team you are keeping too much to yourself these days:)

Mike the beginner

[Emanuel A.]

Lucky duck! :whistling:

[Emanuel A.]

Not to nit pick, but if you take into consideration the formatted space, you'll get more like 4min36... ( (8000 * 0,925) / 27 ) / 60 ) = 4,6 :bleh:Well picked then... :whistling: From those Samsung hybrid HDD's, how much have we? Double?

[Alexander Nikishin]

Great to see......but 2 questions, is this recording best quality redcode, or a lower bit rate?

and will this be avaiable at the time of shipping?

That is recording at full quality 4k Redcode RAW.

Should be available upon shipping date.

[Jeremy Newmark]

...and that display shows a "24". I guess the data rate is limited strictly by I/O throughput, not the compressor, because we're talking data rate and not frame rate.

My first thought was that the "24" was referring to the frame rate. Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. In looking at the quicktime files of both the "milk girls" clip and the "crossing the line" clip, they are both listed at 24 frames per second. I've searched the forum and red.com and have not been able to find anything conclusive, so my question is: Does the camera have the option of shooting 23.976p? I can't imagine that it wouldn't, but it would be nice if someone could verify this. thanks.

[Jaime Vallés]

The more we look at ExpressCard's performance and standalone format (not SATA), along with it's pricing... the less we like it. It is on the chopping block waiting for me to say "Pull!".

Jim
That's sad to hear. Oh, well. If it doesn't work right, it doesn't work at all. It's CF cards from now on. So... how fast are prices on CF cards supposed to drop?

[R. Gonzales]

So... how well did recording 4k to that card work out?
Also, is it just me, or does that rear display look photoshopped in? Weird.

Sweet pic, tho. Thanks.

You're joking, right?

Excuse me for blurting out and by my post count it looks like i have been just hanging out. It's just that everyone else has more to say than I do... But when I get the c amera i my hands I am sure that will all change



Kind Regards

Method

[Joe Aurili]

Much nicer then that bulky HD. Now if the battery can be shrunk that small too.... :)

[Brian Kaz]

You're joking, right?

Oh, sweet Jesus....



Anyway, is there hope of hearing how the recording went to the CF? I'm quite interested in this module solely for aggresive shots...

[Häakon]

its called shallow depth of field.. if your buying a Red camera, you better get used to it :)
I'm one of the biggest proponents of shallow DOF I know, but this one even makes MY eyes hurt! What is that, f/1.2 Jarred? I think it was you who told me, "just because you have it doesn't mean you have to use it..." :-P

(Also, where'd the EXIF data go?)

I must say, I like the back panel and the light up buttons a lot... seems very functional - especially for low light work - and it's great to see a "near finished" camera. The CF is definitely interesting... I'd almost be inclined to say it's the way to go if we could only get those capacities higher. Definitely cheaper than P2 and a heck of a lot easier to come by. If they could get a 128GB CF card out on the market, that thing would really cook.

[Rodrigo Lizana]

Hi Jarred,

What was the lens & F stop used?

Stephen

I believe it´s in the camera rear display "T2.8" right ?. If so this means the iS4 is fully working transmitting lens status to the camera !. Very, very exciting !.

P.D. Sorry I was too excited about this lens data transmission that I din´t get you meant the stop of the photo camera instead of the beauty.

[Evin Grant]

I'm one of the biggest proponents of shallow DOF I know, but this one even makes MY eyes hurt! What is that, f/1.2 Jarred?

My guess is that's it's Jarred's favorite 85mm f1.4 there, probably shooting WFO too.

[Keith Nealy]

Well aside from all the nitpicking and concerns about express, etc. I just want to say congratulations for reaching this step of the production process.

With this picture, you seemed to be like the proverbial proud cat bringing a dead mouse home to show us and we couldn't appreciate it for what it was.

I think it's very cool and another notch in the handle.

aloha,

Keith

[Jeff Kilgroe]

MMMMMM.... CF recording 4K. Commodity SanDisk media...

Kinda bummed over the current state of ExpressCard media. The format makes so much sense, but manufacturers are sure coming slow to the market with this one.

Anyway.... 4K REDCODE to a CF card, even if only to 8GB (under 5 minutes) is still cool as hell.

[Don Woods]

That is so Sexy how much 4K did you fit on the card? I know we will find out but just wondering. Looks really sexy very nice pic Jarred.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Should be about 4 minutes 30 seconds worth.

[MikeHedge]

San Disk 8GB CF

http://www.adorama.com/IDSCF8GE4.html

[REDHKSC]

in action....

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178823483.jpg

I hope RED AE card can have the storage capacity to change the imaging world.
http://www.americanexpress.com/pes/uk/benefits/red/microsite/thecard.shtml
Cheers,

Stewart

[Ralph Oshiro]

Holy sh*t! That looks so f*ckin bitchin'!

[Ralph Oshiro]

I know there's another thread for this already . . . but which media is everyone going with? That CF card sticking out of that RED looks so damned sexy! The CF option is tempting. So inexpensive . . . so AVAILABLE. But is CF at the end of its capacity? ExpressCard/34 holds a lot of promise, but what about what AV said? Will the 1.8" SATA solution have the most capacity and (eventually) end up being the best bang per buck of all? Still don't know which to choose!

[Ralph Oshiro]

The more we look at ExpressCard's performance and standalone format (not SATA), along with it's pricing... the less we like it. It is on the chopping block waiting for me to say "Pull!"
Oh, just saw Jim's post. So, I guess, CF is it? Does no one have price/availability info on the 1.8" SATA media yet?

[Häakon]

I know there's another thread for this already . . . but which media is everyone going with? That CF card sticking out of that RED looks so damned sexy! The CF option is tempting. So inexpensive . . . so AVAILABLE. But is CF at the end of its capacity? ExpressCard/34 holds a lot of promise, but what about what AV said? Will the 1.8" SATA solution have the most capacity and (eventually) end up being the best bang per buck of all? Still don't know which to choose!
Eventually it will all be solid state... we just have to wait for those capacities to go up and the prices to go down before it's ubiquitous.

Still, something tells me it's not TOO far off...

[Poi Boy]

My decision is going to be down to the wire, roll the dice !
I guess even if I make the wrong choice the penalty won't be that bad.
Aloha
-A

[Alexander Nikishin]

Still don't know which to choose!

I'm going with the 1.8" sata cards once they become available. In the meantime, I'll take extra precautions with my red drives.

[RED-Tank]

I love CF, Jim, this is not too far from a "compact" REDONE.. i love it :D.

[Stuart English]

The rule is, media is acceptable ONLY IF it meets our 4K REDCODE data rate requirements.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Will the 1.8" SATA solution have the most capacity and (eventually) end up being the best bang per buck of all? Still don't know which to choose!

I do think there's a good chance of that. However, I'm unsure about the simplicity of working with 1.8" SATA SSDs... Not a big deal really, but they're designed to be installed in a device with very minimal disconnect / reconnects going on. It would seem there needs to be some sort of tray or sled or end adapter for the 1.8" SSD device to make it convenient for continuous swappling.

ExpressCard does hold a lot of promise too, but manufacturers aren't doing such a hot job of bringing these to market. Yes, 16GB ones have been announced and may even be trickling into the channel. I can buy an 8GB EC34 device right now for $100 from several places. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be any better performance wise than the 8GB CF cards. And the current crop of offerings (all two of them that I'm aware of) are trying to market themselves complete with backup software and other worthless filler. I wouldn't be surprised if these devices are just a CF card inside of an EC34 housing.

CF is looking promising though -- Samsung, SanDisk and Transcend all claim 32GB CF by the end of '07. SanDisk as their 300X Extreme IV version of the 16GB CF card shipping next month -- or so I've been told.

If CF cards can get to 64GB capacity within the next 12 to 18 months, then they could very well become the RED media of choice. Compact size, convenient, can buy anywhere, reliable, etc...

[Jaime Vallés]

San Disk 8GB CF

http://www.adorama.com/IDSCF8GE4.html
Wow, that's only $110 for an 8GB CF card! I'm really excited about the CF option right now... Take THAT P2!!!!! :ninja:

[fightordie]

From Wiki:

CompactFlash has a disadvantage in its physical design. The pins for electrical contact are long and thin, and not located on the card itself. An improperly inserted card or poorly designed card slot can lead to easily bent and damaged pins, which are nearly impossible to straighten and can effectively destroy the device in which the card is being inserted, leading to high repair/replacement costs.


Can anyone from RED comment on this.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Considering the number of CF cards I've used over the past several years (easily a few hundred) with various cameras and card readers, I can say this is a total non-issue. I've seen "sloppy" card slots on cheap card reader devices that would concern me of such a thing, but I don't think we need to worry.

[Joe Aurili]

If that is true, at least it would just hurt the CF adapter on the camera, not the camera itself. I have never had a problem with a CF card.


From Wiki:

CompactFlash has a disadvantage in its physical design. The pins for electrical contact are long and thin, and not located on the card itself. An improperly inserted card or poorly designed card slot can lead to easily bent and damaged pins, which are nearly impossible to straighten and can effectively destroy the device in which the card is being inserted, leading to high repair/replacement costs.


Can anyone from RED comment on this.

[Tonaci Tran]

I use CFs all the time with my digital slr and I never had any problems with any CF damage. This is the first time I ever heard of anyone bringing up this issue.


Designing CF card slots wouldn't seem like rocket science considering the hundreds of card readers out there that are dirt cheap and seem to work just fine.

[fightordie]

yeah but at 4 minute plus run times @ 4K redcode raw on the current 8 gigers there will be alot of inserting and removing far higher than anyones done on their SLRS.

And with the unknown or not even designed for constant insertion removal times of 1.8" sata flash maybe the express card has an advantage.

[Tonaci Tran]

I read all the posts in this thread and didn't catch the confirmation of the compact flash speed. Jarred stated that lexar makes a 300x card..but is the sandisk in the pic an extreme IV? The difference between the two is that the lexar does 45mb per second minimum and the sandisk does "up to 40MB/sec*" It probably could do at least the 27mb/sec minimum..but just wanted to confirm.

[Sanjin Jukic]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178823483.jpgQUOTE:

"We have successfully recorded 4k REDCODE RAW (same as Peter Jackson
used to shoot "Crossing the Line") to 8GB of compact flash extreme 4,
which is about 4 1/2 minutes of recording 4K @ 24fps. A bit of a paradigm
shift.

Jim"

From cml-2k-444

[Harmonica]

I take it from this photo that, with the current design, the media protrudes from the module. If that's true, it makes me kind of nervous...

[Jannard]

I take it from this photo that, with the current design, the media protrudes from the module. If that's true, it makes me kind of nervous...

Not done yet...

Jim

[Stephen Webb]

Hey Jim,

"The 96GB Red Ram records for about an hour"

The capacity jumped?

[Harmonica]

Not done yet...

Jim

Why did I doubt? :blush:

[Brian Kaz]

Has it ever been stated whether the CF module is single slot only? Are multiple slots possible? Thanks.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Waiting!!??

[Mike the beginner]

The electronics within this whole camera is mounting up significantly. I bet Jim is like you guys and he looks at the CF card and says, would be nice to have two card holders there and have them fit flush and protected from the weather.

We are getting so much from this camera that the last wee push becomes much tougher and more difficult. But you know what? I jusy love the way they try things out and if it does not look promising it could get the chop.

Perhaps the key to the CF speeds with appropriate storage will be the demand from the consumers. I read an article somewhere that companies like samsung are going hell for leather to ramp up the storage in these cards.
I can really visualise using CF cards more than the red drive in two years from now.

Mike the beginner

[Jason Murphy]

This is very, very cool stuff.

And while some people may complain about only being able to fit 4.5 minutes of 4K RAW onto an 8GB card, and having to swap cards out repeatedly, etc., let's put this into perspective here:

4.5 minutes is a 400 ft. roll of 35mm film. Carrying around the visual equivalent of 400 feet of 35mm film in your pocket (or your wallet even, those CF cards are tiny) - that's revolutionary.

Not to mention that switching CF cards is a hell of a lot easier, faster and more foolproof than changing out a 400 foot magazine.

[David Mullen ASC]

But considering how small the RED hard drive seems to be (about the size of a flat Sony Lithion-Ion battery it seems to me) you'd have to ask yourself when you'd be in a situation where you need to be even smaller and lighter -- i.e. would a Steadicam have a problem with the Red hard drive on the Red camera? Those are the sorts of shots where you would live with a 4-minute record time if it saved you weight & size of the rig. And could a CF recorder be small and light enough not to need to be built into the camera, but somehow used as an accessory, maybe velcro'd to the side or something?

I'd point out that 400' mags are not used commonly except for handheld, Steadicam, or small configurations in 35mm because people prefer shooting scenes with 10 minute loads, not half that. It's not really due to reload times per se, but just the interruption of shooting is annoying.

On the other hand, at the rate that flash memory is improving in capacity, 10 minutes per card at 4K Redcode RAW is probably just around the corner.

[Jason Murphy]

At this point, I'd really only consider recording to flash media (of any sort) for handheld work anyway, not for size (you're right that the RED drive seems more than small enough for most Steadicam work) so much as the fact that there are no moving parts, therefore the camera being bounced and jostled around during a handheld shoot isn't the potential problem it might otherwise be if there were a hard drive attached.

My excitement, though, was less about this CF card being specifically the equivalent of a 400' mag, and more about wrapping my mind around the idea that you could carry the equivalent of a 35mm film mag around in your wallet at all. It just sort of hit me when I saw the photo that started this thread.

[Michael Schrengohst]

This is very, very cool stuff.

And while some people may complain about only being able to fit 4.5 minutes of 4K RAW onto an 8GB card, and having to swap cards out repeatedly, etc., let's put this into perspective here:

4.5 minutes is a 400 ft. roll of 35mm film. Carrying around the visual equivalent of 400 feet of 35mm film in your pocket (or your wallet even, those CF cards are tiny) - that's revolutionary.

Not to mention that switching CF cards is a hell of a lot easier, faster and more foolproof than changing out a 400 foot magazine.

That is why when the HVX and P2 came out I was there....
It is so funny that many are not convinced that P2 or CF is the
future. Having CF record capabilities on the RED will be fantastic...
Imagine being able to shoot clips for a client on CF cards - copy the footage and give them the card.
I use CF cards all the time to shuttle footage around.

[Júlio Taubkin]

Err... considering, that LTO tapes are around 100 dollars, we could also predict that in two years we might be archiving on CF cards... We're not too far away from 25 cents/gig as we think. Alright, 100 dollars for 8GB now, but theese thing really change fast! Could Solid state be a good long term archival medium? I remembered when I put my iPod shuffle on the washer machine and it didn't loose a track...

[dalemccready]

It is definitely a small camera on a Steadicam even with the drives, and you could argue that the adjustable position of the drives could aid the dynamic balance and intertial adjustment of a rig, but it's nice to have the smallest camera you can too, as we're always bolting transmitters and stuff on too (RED HD Tx/Rx anyone?).

One area that I feel has slipped in steadicam has been the use of superposts and collapsible posts. These configurations require a lighter camera so if you could strip it back to just the CF card it could mean a new angle that you couldn't have shot previously.

There's a lot of cool tricks our steadicam rig can do that we can't offer with a standard camera weight such as very high shots tilted down or long low mode shots.

i still get asked to shoot with BL4s cameras annoyingly often (or low mode with a Frazier lens! OUCH), and there aren't many sound sync 35mm cameras that are nice and light that allow the use of a super post.

But the Red with no drives could be very nice for that! :biggrin:

[Stephen Gentle]

That looks awesome! Hopefully we'll see some cheap 16 and 32 GB cards in the next few years...

[Chris Kenny]

We've got cheap 16 GB cards now, they're just not quite fast enough. I'd expect to see higher performance 16 GB cards in the next couple of months, and I wouldn't be too surprised to see 32 GB cards by the end off the year; Samsung showed of NAND memory with sufficient density to allow for 32 GB cards last September.

[David Battistella]

I guess the big question here is this. Why are P2 cards so great and so expensive? If we could record to this type of solid state media with RED then why would anyone opt for P2?

David

[Chris Kenny]

Panasonic established P2 pricing when flash memory was a lot more expensive, and because they're the sole supplier, they haven't cut prices nearly as aggressively as vendors in more competitive markets have.

Initially Panasonic justified the proprietary nature of P2 by saying there weren't any off-the-shelf cards out there that were large and fast enough, so they had to stick four SD cards together in a little RAID within each P2 card. But now of course there are commodity CF cards which have more than enough performance to record DVCPRO HD or AVC-Intra or whatever. There's not much reason for P2 to exist anymore.

IMO, Panasonic should introduce one more round of P2 cards at something close to market prices for flash memory toward the end of the year (to avoid screwing over existing customers), and then switch to CF slots on new cameras. (The odds of this happening are essentially zero, I suspect.)

[Gunleik Groven]

Jan Critterton Livingstone eloborates in this post around the hand-made P2 cards -;)

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/193/865019?

All the more reason to find more flexible solutions.

Gunleik
Happy P2 owner -;)

[David Battistella]

IMO, Panasonic should introduce one more round of P2 cards at something close to market prices for flash memory toward the end of the year (to avoid screwing over existing customers), and then switch to CF slots on new cameras. (The odds of this happening are essentially zero, I suspect.)


This is the beauty of RED. They get the jump of being a new company and they do not have to wedge exisiting technology into an old product. P2 is a nice idea , but the price/capacity issue is going to be a giant problem and with RED able to record to solid state memory (that is only going to get bigger and cheaper) I cannot imagine how P2 is going to compete when people understand what is happening.

Panasonic is going to try to ride the P2 donkey all the way to Bethlehem but I thik most people understand that it (P2)is already a tired horse. :)

Ah!, don't you love technology.....
David

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jan Critterton Livingstone eloborates in this post around the hand-made P2 cards -;)

I've always respected Jan and she has been truly great to have representing Panasonic on the forums. But she does blow a little smoke now and then regarding P2 and some of the panny products.

[fightordie]

Panasonic established P2 pricing when flash memory was a lot more expensive, and because they're the sole supplier, they haven't cut prices nearly as aggressively as vendors in more competitive markets have.

Initially Panasonic justified the proprietary nature of P2 by saying there weren't any off-the-shelf cards out there that were large and fast enough, so they had to stick four SD cards together in a little RAID within each P2 card. But now of course there are commodity CF cards which have more than enough performance to record DVCPRO HD or AVC-Intra or whatever. There's not much reason for P2 to exist anymore.

IMO, Panasonic should introduce one more round of P2 cards at something close to market prices for flash memory toward the end of the year (to avoid screwing over existing customers), and then switch to CF slots on new cameras. (The odds of this happening are essentially zero, I suspect.)

Its the wavelet compression that lets the CF cards to be used in RED. The P2 system records DVCPRO HD and will never record on CF. But Pansonics future is going with AVCHD that can record to low cost cards.

[Chris Kenny]

Its the wavelet compression that lets the CF cards to be used in RED. The P2 system records DVCPRO HD and will never record on CF. But Pansonics future is going with AVCHD that can record to low cost cards.

REDCODE RAW at 4K is around 27 MB/s. This is twice the data rate of any variant of DVCPRO HD. In other words, modern CF cards are more than fast enough to record DVCPRO HD.

[fightordie]

re edit. sorry

[istvanttt]

REDCODE RAW at 4K is around 27 MB/s. This is twice the data rate of any variant of DVCPRO HD. In other words, modern CF cards are more than fast enough to record DVCPRO HD.

Haven't I read somewhere here that RED is one step of killing the CF solution, because they are too slow, even the CF express?

[Ralph Oshiro]

Haven't I read somewhere here that RED is one step of killing the CF solution, because they are too slow, even the CF express?
I don't remember seeing that anywhere. Jim did say that he may almost be ready to pull the plug on the ExpressCard/34 option.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I don't remember seeing that anywhere. Jim did say that he may almost be ready to pull the plug on the ExpressCard/34 option.

That is interesting. Sony is wrapping some of it's camera products future around ExpressCard/34. The MacBookPros are ExpressCard/34??
Yet I have not found any ExpressCards for sale? When?
I have used CF with my Nikons without a hitch...

[istvanttt]

I don't remember seeing that anywhere. Jim did say that he may almost be ready to pull the plug on the ExpressCard/34 option.

Maybe its a language problem for me, but does "..pull the plug.." not mean to kill this part of the project?

[IAN SUN]

Maybe its a language problem for me, but does "..pull the plug.." not mean to kill this part of the project?

Yes that is what it means, however CF and ExpressCard are two different technologies. Jim stated that he is considering killing ExpressCard, not CF.

[istvanttt]

Yes that is what it means, however CF and ExpressCard are two different technologies. Jim stated that he is considering killing ExpressCard, not CF.

Well, CF Express is the newer technology and in theorie even the faster one, so I'm affraid that if there will be a change, then both type of compactflash cards will go down the river.

[Stuart English]

Time out, please.

FACT - we are already recording 24fps at 4K RAW to selected grades of CF card in the RED building.

FACT - ExpressCard is struggling to come up to the write speeds that we require to record 4K.
Hence Jim's comment about that specific flash memory based option ONLY.

[istvanttt]

Time out, please.

FACT - we are already recording 24fps at 4K RAW to selected grades of CF card in the RED building.

FACT - ExpressCard is struggling to come up to the write speeds that we require to record 4K.
Hence Jim's comment about that specific flash memory based option ONLY.

Thanks for this info!!!

[Álex Montoya]

It is truly insane to watch a 4K camera recording to a tiny CF card.

It completely changes the whole high end acquisition/posproduction system. Period.

[Joe Aurili]

Yep, welcome to the future.


It is truly insane to watch a 4K camera recording to a tiny CF card.

It completely changes the whole high end acquisition/posproduction system. Period.

[Álex Montoya]

Right now my only tiny concern is if REDCODE is going to be capable of visually lossless quality at 27MB/s.
In other hands it would be a way bigger doubt, but I know Jim and his team are going to make it work.

[Brook Willard]

Right now my only tiny concern is if REDCODE is going to be capable of visually lossless quality at 27MB/s.
In other hands it would be a way bigger doubt, but I know Jim and his team are going to make it work.

Heheh, have you been to any of the screenings? :)

[Álex Montoya]

Yeah, I know everyone was very impressed by the projection and that sole fact is an amazing achievement. I was thinking more about the tiny artifacts that showed the 4K frames and that never got quite explained.

Anyway, as I stated, me, as a reservation holder, completely rely on the team.

[Erik Widding]

FACT - ExpressCard is struggling to come up to the write speeds that we require to record 4K.
Hence Jim's comment about that specific flash memory based option ONLY.

Does anybody know of any Expresscards that actually use the PCI Express bus for data transfer? :help:

I saw a sandisk/sony announcement to develop one, and all the others that I have found (i.e. Transcend and Lexar) seem to only use USB.

It appears from the Transcend docs that these cards are just USB thumb drives in a different package. No wonder they are so slow...:ranting2:

[Evin Grant]

I was thinking more about the tiny artifacts that showed the 4K frames and that never got quite explained.

They were explained, Jim said in no uncertain terms that those shots had been grossly under exposed (5 stops) and that the team was aware of the problem and working to resolve it. I can tell you it took me watching the film a second time to even pick it up, it was pretty subtle. I doubt it would have even been visable in a 2K projection. That being said I don't think Jim will ship a single unit that will have this issue. And if so this may be the first camera ever to allow for a 5 stop exposure error with an almost negligable effect on final image quality. Of course I am not saying you should'nt carefully expose or be lazy, but if shit happens, and we all know it does, even to PJ. Well you certainly couldn't pull out a piece of film that under, could you Brook?

You still haven't answered Brook's question though, did you see the projection?

[SF Geek]

Hey Evin. I think he's talking about the noise in the still 4k images posted online, not the fixed pattern noise in the underexposed shots like the cockpit shot.

[Jarred Land]

Well said Evin, well said.

One correction in your statement though, the exposure error was our fault and not Peter Jackson or Richard Blucks. they exposed based off of a miscalculation instruction by us on the day.

[Jarred Land]

Right now my only tiny concern is if REDCODE is going to be capable of visually lossless quality at 27MB/s.
In other hands it would be a way bigger doubt, but I know Jim and his team are going to make it work.

remember... we have still yet to actually record anything at 27MB/s.. (everything we have shot has been well under that)

[Stephen Williams]

[QUOTE=Evin Grant;45190]They were explained, Jim said in no uncertain terms that those shots had been grossly under exposed (5 stops) and that the team was aware of the problem and working to resolve it. /QUOTE]

Hi Evin,

Sounds like somebody needs to be 'let go' if they underexposed by 5 stops. I can't really imagine 'A' list crew being so incompetent. Were they using any monitors?

Stephen

[SF Geek]

Jarred. Just to clarify, the 4k stills posted were the shots that were underexposed? I thought that what Jim had said was in response to the fixed pattern noise in some of the shots on the 4k projection at NAB. Those shots, close up of bear in cockpit, looked like they could have been underexposed. The 4k still frames posted online did not.

[Jarred Land]

Jarred. Just to clarify, the 4k stills posted were the shots that were underexposed? I thought that what Jim had said was in response to the fixed pattern noise in some of the shots on the 4k projection at NAB. Those shots, close up of bear in cockpit, looked like they could have been underexposed. The 4k still frames posted online did not.

we are talking about two different things here...

Some shots were underexposed (the bear) and some other clips had other characteristics that since have been resolved.

We are obviously not trying to hide anything, or we wouldn't be showing you guys images from prototype alpha and beta cameras as we go along.

[SF Geek]

I didn't mean to imply that you guys were hiding anything. If I thought that, I wouldn't have asked that question and i wouldn't have believed your response. I have never felt like you guys were hiding or lying about anything. I was just confused about what was being discussed. As much as i saw the fixed pattern noise in the bear shot, because i was scrutinizing the image like I never have before, I have to say that I don't remember ever seing a projected image that looked so clear and lifelike.

[Jarred Land]

its all good man... I know what your saying.

[Alexander Nikishin]

lol Jarred for the death of me when will you start using you're instead of your? :sarcasm:

[laguun]

lol Jarred for the death of me when will you start using you're instead of your? :sarcasm:

what your talkin of, alexander?

ps: scnr

[Alexander Nikishin]

what your talkin of, alexander?

ps: scnr

Your silly laguun.

[laguun]

Your silly laguun.

your right - need my day-starting coffee to pretend i am professional.

[Álex Montoya]

remember... we have still yet to actually record anything at 27MB/s.. (everything we have shot has been well under that)

That's very interesting. Didn't know that. Man, we're starving for news here.

And no, I didn't see the projection. Wish I could.

[Alexander Nikishin]

remember... we have still yet to actually record anything at 27MB/s.. (everything we have shot has been well under that)

Are you kidding me? That's amazing.

[Brook Willard]

Well you certainly couldn't pull out a piece of film that under, could you Brook?

[rummages through old film latitude tests]

Nope. :devil:

[Steve Freebairn]

What has the data rate been on the footage shot so far? On the PJ shoot?

[Stephen Williams]

[rummages through old film latitude tests]

Nope. :devil:

Hi Brook,

Is the 5 stops underexposed now confirmed? Jarred responded to my post but his answer is no longer visible.

As the camera has no optical viewfinder or range finder, I assume some electronic viewfinder or monitor was used. I would have thought 5 stop under would have been noticed by an A list Director & Crew..

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

I don't know if it's possible to bring back 5 stops under from RED - that's not my place to comment. I do know that it isn't reasonably possible on film, unless you want it to be "very moody". It's obviously more possible on a day exterior than a night interior.

I did a fairly extensive test with 5212, 5217, 5218 and 5299 a while back... bracketed exposure in one-stop increments on two scenes [a bright scene and a dark scene on either side of a 12x solid in one frame] with charts in the middle. Scanned to 2K and tried to save as much exposure as possible. Learned a thing or two about how the various stocks hold up as well as how the grain structure changes based on all of these factors. It's pretty cool... I may put it together and post it if I ever get time.

[Jarred Land]

You would need to be nuts to even try to bring anything up from 5 stops under, unless your shooting a snow storm in black and white.

[Deanan]

The neat thing about shooting raw is that you're not dependent on the soup time for fixing a single shot out of a whole roll film.

[najafi/didarfilm]

hey , compact flash is expensive , make the dock safer , it shouldn't be outside like this , hmm.