Automatic controls

[Jeremy Hughes]

Forgive me if this has been asked or if everybody (except for me) knows but. Are there any automatic controls? I always hear about manual controls for everything and never once heard about automatic. There has to be automatic right? How else would this be a viable ENG camera?

Furthermore, are the automatic controls revolutionary? Or are they just your average automatic controls. And could they be useful in filmmaking for an inexperienced new DP?

It's simple enought to set the controls before you start shooting, but how about changing the settings while recording? As if you were shooting a show such as COPS, and you move from the dark outdoors to the bright indoors and had no time to change the apperture. Just your everyday automatic control usage I guess.

But if you shoot RAW, you won't have to worry about shooting the wrong white balance. And since you can adjust the gain in post, you won't really have to worry about that right?

[Michael Ragen]

No automatic controls for focus or iris.
Speaking of cops type stuff from moving from bright outdoors to dark indoors, my friend's father won an award for an ENG shot he did like what you describe with a manual iris rack while moving indoors. Hopefully there will be an easy way to keyframe white balance in post.

I'm tempted to buy two Supergrips (each one can support two motors I believe) so I have control over zoom/focus/iris for run n' gun situations.

[Jeremy Hughes]

No automatic controls for focus or iris.

That's really too bad. Wow.

[Leo Ticheli]

Why do you want to make the Red camera something it clearly is not?

If you want an ENG camera, there are plenty of them out there with sufficient image quality and all the automatic functions you could want at a price considerably lower than the Red.

Attention Red Zealots: Please,please do not flame me. I already know you believe the Red camera is the ideal device for every shooting project yet or to be conceived, that it will chop, slice, julienne, and shrink-wrap in one easy step.

I know that you can stick a cheap 2/3" chip camera lens on it and fire away with just a bit of the sensor, but you're still left with a pretty heavy camera that doesn't even have an ND or color temperature filter wheel. ENG shooters typically don't have an assistant ready to throw ND in the matte box.

All cameras, Red included, have attributes that are advantages for some situations and liabilities in others.

I hate to keep saying this, but here goes; I love the Red camera. For my uses, it promises to completely change the game. I can scarcely wait for ours to arrive. I just can't see it as an ENG vehicle.

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo

[David Mullen ASC]

What's innovative about the RED camera is that it is a true digital cinema camera, not an adaptation of existing ENG designs and broadcast TV mentalities. I don't think Jim really put this much effort and money just to put out one more 1080P ENG video camera on the market.

Also, most pro ENG camcorders don't have auto-focusing...

[Priyesh P.]

how is it possible that someone makes 226 postings and still doesn´t know about the very basic nature of this camera?

[IAN SUN]

how is it possible that someone makes 226 postings and still doesn´t know about the very basic nature of this camera?

Damn, you must be reading my mind. That's exactly what I was going to say.

kinda creepy ; ) eh Limpidity?

[Joe Aurili]

OK, then what type of tapes does red use? ;)

[Brook Willard]

OK, then what type of tapes does red use? ;)

3/4" VHS.

[Shawn Nelson]

Damn it Brook, I was hoping for Hi8! What else am I supposed to do with my still unopened spares?

[Jonathan Wheeler]

With hi8 I could use my Handicam for B camera! Yes!:)

[Ace]

You dont need to be a genius to adjust aperture in realtime while seeing feedback on the evf..

[Chris Kenny]

Red is clearly designed more to replace 35mm film cameras than to replace ENG cameras. That said, however, one should keep in mind that field-portable ENG cameras are a fairly recent invention. For much of the history of news, cameramen were out in the trenches (sometimes literally) with fully manual film cameras.

I hear those didn't even have real-time histogram displays or "magic" focus assists. :devil:

So, Red should certainly be usable for some types of ENG work.

And supporting auto features in the future probably wouldn't be too hard, if Red decided it was worth implementing.

[Priyesh P.]

eh Limpidity?

Hey Bro,
in that guy´s case it must be sorta stupidity
( sorry, but that´s it )

[Ace]

Hey Bro,
in that guy´s case it must be sorta stupidity
( sorry, but that´s it )

Hey...

[Michael Ragen]

slow down guys. its easy to get caught up in all of this camera's bada$$ features and not notice what it doesn't have. i'm not trying to say this camera should have automatic features, just don't knock the guy for missing this info.

[Brook Willard]

Come on, guys.

[Michael Mann]

Yes, please slow down.
Partial automatic control is always something to consider - even for a professional camera like RED. For some kind of work, operating RED all alone, I'd sure appreciate an intelligent AF option, for instance.

[Priyesh P.]

It´s just like hanging out in an icecream parlour for weeks, then someone says "icecream is COLD" and he finds out that he never liked cold things.

If OcularLimpidity (!) was out for automatic stuff then this could be the wrong place since at least 225 postings. dvxuser or hvxuser were better suited I guess (even with those cams I always shut down the autofeats).

Nevertheless, I apologize. Sorry, mea culpa.

[Vincent Rice]

No Autofocus? WTF! How am I supposed to get that classic video-blog gently oscillating blurriness now?

[Priyesh P.]

No Autofocus? WTF! How am I supposed to get that classic video-blog gently oscillating blurriness now?
Don´t make fun of it. Similar to the current aficionados of film there will be people in the future who´ll defend it´s mesmerizing qualities and realness.:biggrin:

[Joe Aurili]

I would have liked auto focus and iris though. Why not? You can always just not use it. I'm sure someone will come up with an attachment that will use the camera feedback to adjust the lens automatically.

[Steve Gibby]

For those interested in information on the EFP and limited ENG capabilities of RED One, you can simply visit the “EFP/ENG and RED” forum on RED User:
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8

If you’d like a compact assessment of RED One’s EFP and ENG potential, you can find it in my sticky on the top of the EFP/ENG and RED forum, or at the end of RED One FAQ page:
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1487

Tobeoryx
Just a week ago you and me had an exchange on another RED User thread about the subject of RED’s EFP uses. I explained them in detail. Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=38612#post38612

David
You made a similar statement on another thread yesterday morning (Post #86), and I then explained the design history of RED One to you, including RED’s intentional inclusion of EFP capability in RED One (Post #90).
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1886&page=9

Ocularlimpidity
RED One was stated as a manual camera system from the beginning. Pro-level shooters in cine-style and EFP style production routinely operate cameras manually. RED One was never intended to be a “point and shoot” automatic camera system like 1/3” prosumer video cameras. That said, RED One was designed from the beginning to have EFP and limited ENG use, as I illustrated for Dave Mullen on the thread link above. As I’ve illustrated in the sticky on the EFP/ENG for RED forum and the RED FAQ page, there are many EFP uses but very limited ENG uses for RED One. Let’s talk about the use of B4 2/3” HD ENG zoom lenses on RED One:

RED One has been confirmed to have 12-volt auxiliary power buses, thus power to B4/ 2/3” HD ENG zoom lenses is enabled. A small switch on the bottom of the servomotor of 2/3" HD zoom lenses with servos allows you to switch from servo operation for zooming to manual operation for zooming. Operational combinations for those lenses on RED One would be:

Power zoom + manual focus (using RED One focus assist function) + manual iris (using zebra or histogram at bottom of frame)

Manual zoom + manual focus (using RED One focus assist function) + manual iris (using zebra or histogram at bottom of frame)

Focus is racked with the left hand, on the lens barrel or with a follow focus. Iris is also controlled with the left hand, usually with the thumb for quickness. Quick reference to the zebra or histogram in the bottom of the EVF or LCD frame enables iris adjustment choices. With 12-volt power to the servozoom, the use of a dedicated servozoom handle matched to the lens is enabled. This plugs into the bottom of the servozoom motor assembly, and the handle could be attached to the RED Rail, shoulder brace or tripod handle.

IMO when used for EFP production, RED One is best suited for non-hardlined EFP. RED One can also be adapted for hardlined EFP based on the inclusion of 12-volt auxiliary power, genlock, and RS232, but relatively easy workarounds for intercom and return video would need to be added by users in that workflow.

Here’s some of the key features of RED One that enable EFP and some limited ENG use of RED One, and they aren’t there just for window dressing, they were consciously included in the design of RED One to enable a diversity of field uses:

B4 2/3” HD Adaptor
Zoom lenses designed for 3-CCD camera use need and adaptor to be used on single chip CMOS cameras like RED One. RED is offering such and adaptor, and stated their intention to do so from the very beginning of the announcement of RED One. It has been confirmed that a B4 2/3” lens used with a B4 adapter will cover 2k. Results at 2k have not been tested, but should be shortly (RED #8). If 2k resolution works well, that enables 2k REDCODE RAW shooting with B4 adapter and B4 HD ENG Zoom lens setup, thus easing the critical nature of rapid lighting changes because to a certain extent exposure can be tweaked with REDCINE when shooting RC RAW.
Links: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=828
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=392&highlight=abakus

Zebra
EFP and ENG shooters are obviously familiar with zebra use in setting exposure in run ‘n gun field use. The confirmation that RED intends to include zebra on RED One was made by Stuart English here:
Link http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2287

Focus Assist
An explanation of the intended features of the focus assist was made yesterday by Stuart English (link – Post #94). The focus assist will feature native pixel analysis at a 1:1 ratio at 4k, and a geographical representation of focus within a selected area of a 4k image. Obviously the FA would also be available for resolutions below 4k, so at the 1080p or 720p that B4 2/3” HD ENG zoom users would be shooting, and its inherently deeper DOF, critical focus in run ‘n gun shooting should be very achievable.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1886&page=10

SuperGrip and RED Motor
If cine style lenses are used for EFP (S35mm, S16mm, B4 cine) then the SuperGrip and RED Motor can be used for controlling RED Motors, white balance, clip replay, audio levels, shutter speeds, etc.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=35700&posted=1#post35700


Summary
RED On will be a manual camera, but the advanced electronics and features listed above easily enable EFP and limited ENG use of RED One. It’s no accident that those features and capabilities were included – it was intentional in order to enable EFP and limited ENG use of RED One. IMO those who claim otherwise simply don’t understand the broad utility of RED One, or for some reason are in denial of it. IMO they’re missing the whole point of the RED One concept: a scalable, flexible, high-utility digital cinema camera system that, when accessorized and lensed for such, was designed intentionally for broad and effective EFP use, and even some limited ENG use. Will RED One be the best camera choice for every shooting situation? No. Will it be a highly effective tool for most cine-style and EFP style production use? Yes. Has there ever been a motion media camera designed with this degree of flexibility, resolutions, formats, lens use, and applications? No. Are formerly separate camps of film and EFP having a hard time getting their heads around the possible production uses of RED One? Yes. Will peer pressure, unions, trade associations, biases, ignorance, fear of change, being techno-challenged, and many other factors move certain segments of the motion media industry to try to minimalize RED One’s capabilities and uses? Yes. Are RED One and subsequent cameras like it the future of the motion media industry? Yes. What will be the penetration speed and level of RED One into the cine-style and EFP style production industries? Fast and deep.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

No Autofocus? WTF! How am I supposed to get that classic video-blog gently oscillating blurriness now?

Not only do you have to do the shouldershakeingeveningnews thing, you have to do drunkautofocussing too. All while you are audiolevelcompressorlimiterpumping and apertureenthusiasticadjusting.

Life´s getting multitaskingly complicated.

Jochen

[TimothyD]

Excellent post Gibby,

I think the versatility of this camera is what is most underestimated about it.

When you say limited ENG use, what do you see as the key limitations?

I know that some entry level videographers use a lot of manual features, but it seems like they are probably in a minority. Despite the low quality of a lot of news, particularly local news, it doesn't seem like overuse of automatic features is the key problem with footage, more often it is poor composition or poor manual control of the exposure, sound, focus, etc...

Are there other things you see as limitations for ENG use aside from the lack of automatic controls? Perhaps size or workflow or something? Neither of those aspects scare me much personally, but I can imagine in some situations it would matter to specific shooters.


Tim




Not only do you have to do the shouldershakeingeveningnews thing, you have to do drunkautofocussing too. All while you are audiolevelcompressorlimiterpumping and apertureenthusiasticadjusting.

Life´s getting multitaskingly complicated.

Jochen

I think the most fun would be doing all of those at once, riding a unicycle:)

[Hans von Sonntag]

Are there other things you see as limitations for ENG use aside from the lack of automatic controls? Perhaps size or workflow or something? Neither of those aspects scare me much personally, but I can imagine in some situations it would matter to specific shooters.


I've done ENG for 5 years and one thing is key for ENG: Time. Shooting, handing over the tape to the reporter, the next gig. You cannot hand over a tape when using RED for ENG. Since most broadcasters use Avid (dont't like QT) I doubt that any bigger TV-station would accept RED Drives/RAM etc... AFAIK I know they still want some sort of Tape, eg. BETACAM (in Germany still no.1). With ENG there is no such thing like colour correcting, no time for converting footage (REDCine) and no need for artsy pictures. Shallow DOF is not desirable, some important information could be left out. ENG is not about pictures, ENG is about content. The fastest camera crew is the best camera crew. For this kind of application a typical ENG camcorder like the Sony XDCAM is much better than RED.

This said RED is probably a brilliant EFP camera and for sure suitable for fast handheld documentary shooting (B4, S16 lenses).

Hans

[Mike the beginner]

I've done ENG for 5 years and one thing is key for ENG: Time. Shooting, handing over the tape to the reporter, the next gig. You cannot hand over a tape when using RED for ENG. Since most broadcasters use Avid (dont't like QT) I doubt that any bigger TV-station would accept RED Drives/RAM etc... AFAIK I know they still want some sort of Tape, eg. BETACAM (in Germany still no.1). With ENG there is no such thing like colour correcting, no time for converting footage (REDCine) and no need for artsy pictures. Shallow DOF is not desirable, some important information could be left out. ENG is not about pictures, ENG is about content. The fastest camera crew is the best camera crew. For this kind of application a typical ENG camcorder like the Sony XDCAM is much better than RED.

This said RED is probably a brilliant EFP camera and for sure suitable for fast handheld documentary shooting (B4, S16 lenses).

Hans

These are good points made about the limitations. The way i see things for those who are shotting in the distance range of target at anything inside lest say loosely 10ft with anything other than a wide angle and reasonable f stop is going to struggle with getting a deep DOF and focusing a moving target as in news gathering would take some skill (huge skill at 4k) Now i have selected the red one aof so many other desirable features. My intention is to do fishing shows and most of the time my target will be about 15ft away. With a decent wide angle lens i should be hitting infinity at that distance so i am hoping that i will not have as much a problem as guys doing narritives where i suspect there is often close focusing and shallow DOF can be critical and desirable. Under these conditions i am considering the birger solution with Canon EOS lenses. I might scrape by with the red zoom but at 2k windowed mode i might struggle with the FOV and getting too close will reduce mu DOF.

I know i should go down the route of 2/3rd b4 with HD lenses but i require landcape and wildlife and would like that footage at 4k if at all possible.

So many people say s35mm is all about shallow DOF but at my optimum distance to target should i be worried?

Would apprecaite no nonsense tell me straight guys, is this doable. My research tells me it is but my instincts tell me i am not so sure?

Edit i should add the canon 10mm-22mm would be a good lens for those situations and underwater footage

Mike the beginner

[Michael Hastings]

So many people say s35mm is all about shallow DOF but at my optimum distance to target should i be worried?

Would apprecaite no nonsense tell me straight guys, is this doable. My research tells me it is but my instincts tell me i am not so sure?

Edit i should add the canon 10mm-22mm would be a good lens for those situations and underwater footage

Mike the beginner

Mike: I wouldn't panic about the depth of field - remember although DOF is less than 2/3" video it is greater than regular 35mm SLR photography, and DOF is identical to shooting with a DSLR like the Canon 400D or EOS30 so you can practice with that. Remember, shooting outdoors you will probably be at much higher F stops than the narrative/theatrical type shooters so it won't be as much of an issue. For the underwater fish something like the 10-22 will be great and almost unlimited depth of field. For fish jumping you will want some sort of telephoto no matter what the depth of field but again you will probably be at higher f-stops so not as critical.

[David Mullen ASC]

With a 250-320 ASA base sensitivity, even if 35mm-style depth of field, you should have plenty of stop outdoors for shooting the fishing with a reasonable depth of field, short of twilight shots and whatnot.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Mike,

1. If I'm going to shoot a documentary with my RED (that's basically what your want to do I suppose) I will go the S16 route. 4K Raw is digital 35mm. 2K RAW is digital S16mm. The DOF is by far not as shallow and a S16 zoom is much smaller compared to 35mm zooms. Still it is possible to achieve nice pictures with shallow DOF if you like and you have the beauty of RAW-Files. A Canon 8-64 with f 2.2 offers you a wide range and shooting open aperture gives you a nice DOF but not as extreme like 35mm. I often hear people say "I dont't mind the shallow DOF when shooting 4k, I just stop down". Often you cannot stop down because of the light. Since shooting documentaries means using the available light I love the possibility to shoot wide open. Shooting f 2 with 35mm/4K Raw can be a nightmare DOF-wise. Especially with in a one man EFP situation.

2. What do you expect to deliver to your clients. I suppose 1080p is sufficient enough. 2K RAW to 1080p is a perfect workflow. 4K is much more suitable for feature-like work or commercials, any application that is usually sho in 35mm. Also 2K RAW lets you overcrank the camera reasonably, which is important for wildlife shooting (you will do wildlife, aren't you?).

3. Even if your target is 15ft away you want a close up for sure - shallow DOF.

4. I never used still-photo lenses for shooting motion picture. I cannot comment on this, but a zoom lens with at least 5-1 ratio is for ducumentary work strongly recommended.

Perhaps I'm to much old school and S16 was always my favourite format for documentaries....
Hans

[Steve Gibby]

When you say limited ENG use, what do you see as the key limitations?

I summarized the limitations of doing ENG with RED One, and some recommendations for limited use (b-roll, etc.), in my ENG paragraph in my sticky at the top of the EFP/ENG for RED forum.

If you check my paragraphs on Non-Hardlined EFP, Hardlined EFP, and ENG, on that sticky page, I expressed that of the EFP & ENG genres, RED One will be most useful for Non-Hardlined EFP, reasonably useful for Hardlined EFP (with workarounds), and least useful for ENG.

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

Hans also covered many of those same points about ENG use in his post that followed yours.

[Brook Willard]

This seemed more appropriate in here... it'll get some better responses :)

[Mike the beginner]

Wow thanks guys that infromation is re-assuring. AquaVideo its looking good for the wide angle canon.

David many thanks for that information it is so gratefully appreciated.

Hans i get what you are saying. Gibby had already advised me to go the b4 HD route.

I try to reduce risks if at ll possible hence my dislike for buying a second hand lens for red. I know you can get someone to test it for you but most of the times that is not a practical solution. top quality s16mm and HD 2/3RDS are expensive.

I have one main project which is a DVD blue ray disc that i hope to have the footage in as high a quality master as possible. The idea is to have a marketing tool for the fishery i run for the next thirty years. Loch lomond is beautiful so i want great master images of the arial views footage shot from either a micro light plane or one of those planes that land in the water. whichever will give a more vibration free image. Thinking of the birger mount with canon IS lenses a possibility, though most guys are pretty sure the IS will not work for cine use just still use. Waiting to get that confirmed just in case...

Out in the boat i figured the 60 fps will be needed to stabilize footage maybe even the 120 fps 720p. The 120fps at 720 would really compromise my footage for future proofing purposes. On the rivers i am more comfortable with what i think i can get away with. Still havent figured some of this stuff yet. After shooting this it will be a series of fishing shows for hopefully SKY TV. Figured 1080P would be fine for this, though have to be 100% certain of workflow before i press record. At the moment it appears that SKY and others are asking for XD Cam HD on tape i imagine. Hope red will be acceptable in whatever form is best.

i would like to ask any of you if you know who the best guys in Scotland are for speaking to and maybe getting good advice from etc. I like to be fair and my plan with red is to appoach a top notch DP who can spend a day with me showing me things etc. In return he or she can have a day with my red one. Same goes for top notch sound guy. That way i learn much faster doing things the right way and they can get to use the greatest technology to hit the cine scene for some time. I will be the first person in Scotland to get a red one. Well fire away with the ideal candidates if you know any guys.

As always, many thanks for any advice or info.

Mike the beginner

[Eddie]

Why does all these people with dreams of huge silverscreen theatrical releases of their mortgage-indie always put down the people who wants to be able to shoot documentaries with the RED One. Personally I prefer a good documentary over any of the silly-plot movies coming out everyday. To me features are just documentaries where they cut out the interesting parts... :devil:

Automatic control is lacking in RED One and thats too bad, but with all the other stuff being top nudge it will just have to be worked around in the field, through training.
But as Gibby has pointed out endlessly Red Digital is not proponent of a feeling-important-with-lightmeter-and-tapemeasure-lifestyle. They simply wish to enhance the overall imagequality of audiovisual productions. This is truely a noble task.

Man should appreciate the true and the good, before he indulges in beauty...

[ColinSmith]

Thinking of the birger mount with canon IS lenses a possibility, though most guys are pretty sure the IS will not work for cine use just still use. Waiting to get that confirmed just in case...

I'm not sure if there may be any other issues with the IS, but at least on a dslr it will give a continuously stablised shot for framing, it's not something that only activates for the duration of the exposure. As long as the mount has some way of telling the IS to activate, it should be useful. There may still be isues, but I can only see it giving a lot steadier shot than otherwise.

[Jeremy Hughes]

Ocularlimpidity
RED One was stated as a manual camera system from the beginning. Pro-level shooters in cine-style and EFP style production routinely operate cameras manually. RED One was never intended to be a “point and shoot” automatic camera system like 1/3” prosumer video cameras. That said, RED One was designed from the beginning to have EFP and limited ENG use, as I illustrated for Dave Mullen on the thread link above. As I’ve illustrated in the sticky on the EFP/ENG for RED forum and the RED FAQ page, there are many EFP uses but very limited ENG uses for RED One. Let’s talk about the use of B4 2/3” HD ENG zoom lenses on RED One:

RED One has been confirmed to have 12-volt auxiliary power buses, thus power to B4/ 2/3” HD ENG zoom lenses is enabled. A small switch on the bottom of the servomotor of 2/3" HD zoom lenses with servos allows you to switch from servo operation for zooming to manual operation for zooming. Operational combinations for those lenses on RED One would be:

Power zoom + manual focus (using RED One focus assist function) + manual iris (using zebra or histogram at bottom of frame)

Manual zoom + manual focus (using RED One focus assist function) + manual iris (using zebra or histogram at bottom of frame)

Focus is racked with the left hand, on the lens barrel or with a follow focus. Iris is also controlled with the left hand, usually with the thumb for quickness. Quick reference to the zebra or histogram in the bottom of the EVF or LCD frame enables iris adjustment choices. With 12-volt power to the servozoom, the use of a dedicated servozoom handle matched to the lens is enabled. This plugs into the bottom of the servozoom motor assembly, and the handle could be attached to the RED Rail, shoulder brace or tripod handle.

IMO when used for EFP production, RED One is best suited for non-hardlined EFP. RED One can also be adapted for hardlined EFP based on the inclusion of 12-volt auxiliary power, genlock, and RS232, but relatively easy workarounds for intercom and return video would need to be added by users in that workflow.

Here’s some of the key features of RED One that enable EFP and some limited ENG use of RED One, and they aren’t there just for window dressing, they were consciously included in the design of RED One to enable a diversity of field uses:

B4 2/3” HD Adaptor
Zoom lenses designed for 3-CCD camera use need and adaptor to be used on single chip CMOS cameras like RED One. RED is offering such and adaptor, and stated their intention to do so from the very beginning of the announcement of RED One. It has been confirmed that a B4 2/3” lens used with a B4 adapter will cover 2k. Results at 2k have not been tested, but should be shortly (RED #8). If 2k resolution works well, that enables 2k REDCODE RAW shooting with B4 adapter and B4 HD ENG Zoom lens setup, thus easing the critical nature of rapid lighting changes because to a certain extent exposure can be tweaked with REDCINE when shooting RC RAW.
Links: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=828
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=392&highlight=abakus

Zebra
EFP and ENG shooters are obviously familiar with zebra use in setting exposure in run ‘n gun field use. The confirmation that RED intends to include zebra on RED One was made by Stuart English here:
Link http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2287

Focus Assist
An explanation of the intended features of the focus assist was made yesterday by Stuart English (link – Post #94). The focus assist will feature native pixel analysis at a 1:1 ratio at 4k, and a geographical representation of focus within a selected area of a 4k image. Obviously the FA would also be available for resolutions below 4k, so at the 1080p or 720p that B4 2/3” HD ENG zoom users would be shooting, and its inherently deeper DOF, critical focus in run ‘n gun shooting should be very achievable.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1886&page=10

SuperGrip and RED Motor
If cine style lenses are used for EFP (S35mm, S16mm, B4 cine) then the SuperGrip and RED Motor can be used for controlling RED Motors, white balance, clip replay, audio levels, shutter speeds, etc.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=35700&posted=1#post35700


Summary
RED On will be a manual camera, but the advanced electronics and features listed above easily enable EFP and limited ENG use of RED One. It’s no accident that those features and capabilities were included – it was intentional in order to enable EFP and limited ENG use of RED One. IMO those who claim otherwise simply don’t understand the broad utility of RED One, or for some reason are in denial of it. IMO they’re missing the whole point of the RED One concept: a scalable, flexible, high-utility digital cinema camera system that, when accessorized and lensed for such, was designed intentionally for broad and effective EFP use, and even some limited ENG use. Will RED One be the best camera choice for every shooting situation? No. Will it be a highly effective tool for most cine-style and EFP style production use? Yes. Has there ever been a motion media camera designed with this degree of flexibility, resolutions, formats, lens use, and applications? No. Are formerly separate camps of film and EFP having a hard time getting their heads around the possible production uses of RED One? Yes. Will peer pressure, unions, trade associations, biases, ignorance, fear of change, being techno-challenged, and many other factors move certain segments of the motion media industry to try to minimalize RED One’s capabilities and uses? Yes. Are RED One and subsequent cameras like it the future of the motion media industry? Yes. What will be the penetration speed and level of RED One into the cine-style and EFP style production industries? Fast and deep.

I only thought that Automatic controls would be good if you were to shoot documentaries in 4K at say F2.8, at such a high resolution and with a huge part of the sensor and with no possibliity of B4 lenses. Since you wouldn't have the whole shot planned out like you would if you were shooting a scripted movie.


You dont need to be a genius to adjust aperture in realtime while seeing feedback on the evf..

I guess. It's one of the simplest parts of shooting full manual. :)


Hey Bro,
in that guy´s case it must be sorta stupidity
( sorry, but that´s it )

I guess you don't like my eyes... It reminds me of that song, Sam Hall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Hall_(song)


It´s just like hanging out in an icecream parlour for weeks, then someone says "icecream is COLD" and he finds out that he never liked cold things.

If OcularLimpidity (!) was out for automatic stuff then this could be the wrong place since at least 225 postings. dvxuser or hvxuser were better suited I guess (even with those cams I always shut down the autofeats).

Nevertheless, I apologize. Sorry, mea culpa.

But it's more like I'm anticipating going to a new Ice Cream parlour that hasn't opened yet. And I find out you have to create your own flavour and they won't make a flavour for you. And me saying "Too bad. Oh well."

P.S. I am a member of DVXuser and correctly answer peoples questions of cameras that I don't even own. And can last arguments with Barry Green about AVCHD and whether or not the HVX200 is a prosumer camera. :wink:

[TimothyD]

I summarized the limitations of doing ENG with RED One, and some recommendations for limited use (b-roll, etc.), in my ENG paragraph in my sticky at the top of the EFP/ENG for RED forum.

If you check my paragraphs on Non-Hardlined EFP, Hardlined EFP, and ENG, on that sticky page, I expressed that of the EFP & ENG genres, RED One will be most useful for Non-Hardlined EFP, reasonably useful for Hardlined EFP (with workarounds), and least useful for ENG.

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

Hans also covered many of those same points about ENG use in his post that followed yours.


Thanks Gibby,

I had read your sticky quite a few times a while back, but somehow had missed you pointing out the limitations for ENG use.

I definitely agree with your analysis, and am pretty happy that these issues are not problematic for me. I'm in the lucky situation that I edit every single thing I shoot, so formats are no problem. I also typically have plenty of time to turn around a project, so I don't need to worry as long as it is roughly as fast to work with Redcode or Pro-Res422 as it is to log and capture my Beta tapes now. I also never use auto iris, so I won't miss that at all. So as you can probably tell, what I do is much more akin to EFP than ENG, so I really have no worries about the pitfalls of ENG with Red.

I hope I didn't sound like I was trying to interrogate you in asking what you see as the drawbacks, and sorry I didn't remember that you had already mentioned them in your sticky. I was just curious as to what things you would forecast as problems.

Thanks,

Tim

[TimothyD]

Why does all these people with dreams of huge silverscreen theatrical releases of their mortgage-indie always put down the people who wants to be able to shoot documentaries with the RED One.

That is a good question, and one that puzzles me every day.

I think it comes down to the fact that it is very easy for people to be so focused on what they want the camera to do for them, that they forget this is not a one-trick pony. This camera will be used in so many different ways, and for people to act like it only is intended for narrative work is silly. Sure it will make a huge impact there, but I for one think the impact on the rest of the industry (ENG/EFP) will be much greater.

I think another big part of people being grumpy on this forum is that everyone is on the defensive because of external attacks on the Red One's viability. People who feel like they are under attack all the time are much more likely to lash out at others.

Peace,

Tim

[Eddie]

I put my trust in Birger... If they work close together with RED and see the potential market, they could eventually make a unit that could stabilize, zoom, and adjust iris and focus automatically.... hmm sweet! These are nice options to choose from if you want to get those handhelds right.
IMO this could become the unit of choice for all EFP productions. Imagine ENG looking better than features :usd:
notice I haven´t even mentioned money yet.... :shifty:

[TimothyD]

I put my trust in Birger... If they work close together with RED and see the potential market, they could eventually make a unit that could stabilize, zoom, and adjust iris and focus automatically.... hmm sweet! These are nice options to choose from if you want to get those handhelds right.
IMO this could become the unit of choice for all EFP productions. Imagine ENG looking better than features :usd:
notice I haven´t even mentioned money yet.... :shifty:

Hi Eddie,

It seems like I had read that the Birger EOS adapter would require a laptop to be connected to make use of the optical image stabilization and other EOS features. Maybe someone else can confirm or deny that, but if so, it seems like it won't work out very well for ENG/EFP until Birger comes out with some kind of small box with the proper electronics to control the lenses.

Peace,

Tim

[Eddie]

Hi timothy, I know it might take some time before this dream-unit will be available, but maybe just maybe...
In the meantime they should already be working on an ergonomic handheld controller with knobs and rockers, and I believe it would be able to zoom very accurately at different speeds.

[Mike the beginner]

Hi Eddie,

It seems like I had read that the Birger EOS adapter would require a laptop to be connected to make use of the optical image stabilization and other EOS features. Maybe someone else can confirm or deny that, but if so, it seems like it won't work out very well for ENG/EFP until Birger comes out with some kind of small box with the proper electronics to control the lenses.

Peace,

Tim

Tim. The birger mount will be coming out soon. There will be a motor available to operate the lenses. The super grip (on my understanding) in co-operation with birger will have zoom and iris control as well as some form of IS. I do remember something about a laptop being mentioned but that was before the super grip was mentioned or perhaps it was for pre-selective type of use with the birger mount. Maybe Eric from Birger could explain, though i imagine he will be pretty busy right now.

Mike the beginner

[TimothyD]

I'm pretty sure that the IS on an EOS lens will require a dedicated processor of some type, which at first will be a laptop.

Also, in regard to Eddie's mention of a zoom, I believe that the EOS lenses do not have a built in powered zoom. You would need to have your lenses fitted with a gear, and then drive them with the Red or another motor.

Anyway, I just wanted to make sure no one gets their hopes up. I know I did before I realized that there would be no powered zoom without a workaround, and that IS would require a laptop (for now at least).

If I'm wrong please let me know, I'd be more than willing to consider going with a still lens instead of a 2/3" HD lens.

[Erik Widding]

I'm pretty sure that the IS on an EOS lens will require a dedicated processor of some type, which at first will be a laptop.

No. All intelligence for this is in our mount and in the lens.


Also, in regard to Eddie's mention of a zoom, I believe that the EOS lenses do not have a built in powered zoom. You would need to have your lenses fitted with a gear, and then drive them with the Red or another motor.

This is correct. But, the EOS mount will be able to drive that external motor.

[ColinSmith]

I'm pretty sure that the IS on an EOS lens will require a dedicated processor of some type, which at first will be a laptop.

The Canon IS system really works entirely within the lens, the body provides no IS processing, just power and an "on" switch, so..... as far as I can tell there should be no great problem making IS work.... we just need to see if it works well for video.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Out in the boat i figured the 60 fps will be needed to stabilize footage maybe even the 120 fps 720p. The 120fps at 720 would really compromise my footage for future proofing purposes.


Hi Mike,

There is a digital postprodcution technique called optical flow, first implemented in plugins by The Foundry and later by Apple inside Shake and of course elswhere. With this you can stabilise footage to a pretty high degree. Highly recommended. In FCP 6 they will implement this optical flow algorithms too, AFAIK. So no reason to overcrank the camera for stabilising. Stabilising footage through overcranking works but has an obvious disadvantage: The footage is in slow motion, not always wanted...

Shooting 1080p will not compromise your footage. Remember we had PAL/NTSC for the last 50 years, 1080p will last a while.

By the way, I love well done fishing-videos and the highlands are second to none,

Hans

[TimothyD]

No. All intelligence for this is in our mount and in the lens.



This is correct. But, the EOS mount will be able to drive that external motor.

WOW,

I feel like an idiot:clown2:

Sorry Erik,

I'm not sure why I thought that was the case... I read so much stuff on here that it becomes hard to keep it all straight...

So sorry

[TimothyD]

I was at least correct in saying that the EOS has no zoom built in right???

[Michael Hastings]

I was at least correct in saying that the EOS has no zoom built in right???

TimothyD: You are correct, the EOS lenses have a manual zoom so there will need to be a motor, but since they have a lot of other stuff already, adding control of the motor to the mount isn't that much. Apparently the feedback info they get is not only for focus and iris but the zoom position as well so they can use that info to be able to precisely set the zoom position if necessary.

Also the many question about automatic control of iris and focus - that info is easier to get inside the camera and once you have that software worked out it would be relatively easy to have it interface with the lens controller, so it is more likely that that would be a further development or upgrade in the future. I am sure that all of the RED people are aware of the desire for that, but since it is quite a bit more work - with more room for problems - I am sure that it is on the longer term development plan. By the way if they are going to do a RED mini, maybe a birger mount on a smaller camera would be a way to achieve more prosumer like features. If they do develop that I see no reason that it couldn't be retrofitted to REDONE cameras.

[Mike the beginner]

TimothyD: You are correct, the EOS lenses have a manual zoom so there will need to be a motor, but since they have a lot of other stuff already, adding control of the motor to the mount isn't that much. Apparently the feedback info they get is not only for focus and iris but the zoom position as well so they can use that info to be able to precisely set the zoom position if necessary.

That was what i was referring to do with laptop. There is scope for pre-set zooms and maybe other stuff.

Being a beginner i can only visualize all this but i can see the benefits of pre select zoom if i knew in advance the footage i wanted to grab for specific controllable scenes.

Hans. That is great advice you supplied there thank you:biggrin:

I shall send you a copy of my er..film production when it is finally completed if you like. I have high hopes it will be preety good. I am just hoping that what i massively lack in camera skills i will make up for in my knowledge of the subject (fishing) which is pretty extensive. I think i have the creative mind that will also help me through this almost impossible task.

Mike the beginner

[Jason Sinclair]

One area that is nearly always missed with these types of discussions is the modularity aspect of red. Virtually none of the automatic cameras can be so easily adapted and upgraded. If there is a need for something then someone will develop it. If you need something, you can develop it yourself.
In this case Red is the camera of choice across disciplines. Where else can someone throw on a nikon and shoot his children growing up in the back yard and then hire a kit and shoot a commercial the next day? Where else can a producer or owner op throw on some nikons and do a couple of weeks testing the basics and then hire more for the big shoot?

I think people have a hard time wrapping their head around just how revolutionary this is. So if you buy a canon xha1 for example or any of those other hd cameras not only are you getting lower quality via lens and codec choice but you are loosing because there's a "one package" option. Red can be configured and each month we see people coming aboard as they see the footage/ possibilities. The camera is already being used and considered for the high end budget Hollywood films to youtube presentations.

Already there are numerous companies adapting and making things for the red. There is little doubt it is the best all round cam in the world at this moment and in each of the sub disciplines that span audio visual work It packs a punch as well, competing on price point access in the higher end of the market and supreme image ability (even with the use of still lenses) in the lower end of the market. It currently rules the middle market almost exclusively in terms of value.

So the question with Red and how you approach it is not "does it have" but rather "who will provide me with"


If you have no knowledge of photography/light/video then automatic will not give you a professional look as one may like but it will be better looking bad footage that you will get from other cams. If you want to do advertising for your product hire a dop for a couple of days. Even if you buy a RED and someone has designed it fully automatic. The automatic functions in cameras cannot capture feeling. A good DOP can and he can use tools to get the most from the cam. No automatic function can ever replace a professional. No red cam can ever replace a professional. I'd much rather have a pro shooting a film clip on a nokia phone than have just anybody shoot on red.

Having said that, if you are passionate to learn and you have your own cam then the turn around to learning might be quite quick.
Automatic functions, are just around the corner believe me, it is very easy to implement on red but the company itself is mainly devoted to producing the camera and accessories that are used across the board with specialist companies producing these add-ons.

The question is where and when will these automatic functions serve you the best and where will working with others help you achieve you goals better. (a good way to learn as well :)

EDIT: OMG i just saw the date of the last post.:waaa:

[JohnF]

I am constantly surprised at the venom that's spat when one discusses automatic functions for RED.

There are quite a number of shooting subjects that I would like the use of aperture or shutter priority exposure modes for.

Some of these would be for cinematic style shots that could be used for a Film or an EFP.

My clients ask for them.

The benefit of having some automatic functions is that of workload/camera supervision. For some T-lapse shooting aperture priority is essential to capture a subject whose natural lighting can vary well outside the dynamic range of any camera. Plus it can help prevent DOF changes (which can look like breathing) and diffraction that can occur when the lens stops right down.
Having aperture priority could mean that one can, if conditions are suitable, leave a camera unattended leaving the operator to work on something else.

And yes, I've done it plenty of times.

The other issue is that when shooting in a unpredictable environment, often the case with EFP/ENG, I've used the automatic modes to help lessen the workload and concentrate on the framing.

That said I accept that RED in it's current incarnation is more suitable for film production but AP/SP (Av/Tv) modes are relatively easy to implement and offer those who need it a very useful tool. Whilst fully manual mode is still there for maximum control.

Earlier in my career I was a 35mm stills shooter and I didn't complain that I had those semi-auto modes to hand if I needed them nor did I complain if I had to use fully manual modes. And quite frankly I find the argument that "They did it in the past all right so why bother now" a rather poor one and shows little empathy with colleagues who don't have the luxury of shooting in controlled environments.

And just saying that there are other cameras/formats out there that can do this is no answer when one wants the footage at 4k.
As people like to bring up 35mm used to be a news medium and whilst they pulled it off I would bet an awfully large amount of money that they would have liked a feature that made their work easier.

JohnF

[Jeremy Hughes]

And just saying that there are other cameras/formats out there that can do this is no answer when one wants the footage at 4k. As people like to bring up 35mm used to be a news medium and whilst they pulled it off I would bet an awfully large amount of money that they would have liked a feature that made their work easier.

JohnF

These are the words I've been trying to think up for the past 10 months.

I'll shoot manual just fine by the way. Automatic is like automatic transmission in your car, it's easier and let's you concentrate on other things. Where manual is better and gives you much more control over your car. Automatic controls on a RED is like a Jaguar XJ220 with automatic transmission, you're not getting all you can out of it, but it still looks good.

Hmm... Maybe my example isn't all that great.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Where do attach the robotic arms to change the ND filters via the AI interface?

Ooops, its only 2008 :bleh: