News...

[Jannard]

I know everyone is waiting for some info. As you know, we are on an engineering hold. What that means is that the last 10% is harder than we thought. We got so far so fast that we were sure we could finish without problems. Wrong.

We have encountered a ton of detail issues. Throw in some supplier difficulties and here we are... delayed. I really didn't think it would happen, but it has. Fear not, the image is there (good news). That is the main thing. But this project is so complicated that we are held up with details. It won't last forever (good news), but it is costing us some time. I wish I could give you a date right now, but I can't. We still believe that the ones that are affected the most are the 1st serial numbers. I am confident that once we get rolling we can catch up quickly. Bear with us. We are working as fast as we can. I hope that we can share specific news/delivery schedule shortly.

Jim

[Brandon Fraley]

thanks for the update... I GUESS! :b

but seriously, now as an official future RED owner, me and Im sure everyone else really appreciates keeping us in the loop.

[Gabriel C.]

Thanks for keeping us informed. I know you're doing all you can.

[Andrew Benz]

I am confident that things will workout well for all of us. Thank you for the information, this is key for all of us as well. Back to editing and rendering... still need to make bread for RED.

[Daniel Gourley]

Thanks Jim!

Gives me more time to save!!!!

[dalemccready]

Cheers for the info!

I'm sure it will be well worth that wait

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Jim,

as I said before I do not have problem with any delivery delay. Hope that other reservation holders would have enough understanding and nerves.

[Martin Ludwig]

Good to see an offensive information policy !

[IAN SUN]

The silver lining is a stronger product I'm sure, as the delay will you the time to bring more features on line.
RED is all good news as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers Jim

[david farland]

I'm hoping that lump in your throat is a person's head you just bit off for not delivering!

Thanks for giving us the feedback.......

[Jannard]

I'm not real happy right now... but I understand the reality of product development. The good news is that the project is not compromised, just delayed.

I also recognize that our customers deserve the straight scoop. Always.

Jim

[Mark Thorpe]

Thanks for being both honest and open, rare qualities in any corporate environment. I'm sure it will all be worth it.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Joe Aurili]

The good thing is that even with the delay you are still years ahead of the others.

[CVB]

Jim, I've delivered about 10 products to market and its nowhere near what you have done in your life but from my experience last 10% is a total pain. I had one project at Cisco where we worked 4 years to get a product to market... 2 months before shipping we did some mechanical testing on pre-pilot units and our main switching BGA popped off the board... turns out the vendor we were using ( a huge company BTW) changed the materials without letting us know. It slipped our schedule over a year. I can definitely relate to how you feel when you can see the finish line and someone trips you.

[Don Woods]

First thanks Jim. That was as crazy as it sounds good news to hear. Any news is good news

Second we are all with you. We all knew there was going to be bumps along the way. We all signed up and bought in with the idea that we are going to be part of something incredible. It never had a date on it. Just beacuse we want that something right now dose not mean its a bad thing that we are not getting it. I know as do allot of us that when everything is said and done we will have something that is far more advanced then what we even where talking about back on DVXuser when this camera was just a dream. Keep up the good work Jim don't let this get you down. We all knew it could happen, I am very shocked it did not happen sooner. We will all get throught it.

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks Jim...get some rest if you can.

best

[Joe Aurili]

Yep, working in software the last 20% is 50% of the work.


Jim, I've delivered about 10 products to market and its nowhere near what you have done in your life but from my experience last 10% is a total pain.

[Alex Boothby]

Same with vfx. Hang in there Jim. Thanks for the update.

[Tonaci Tran]

Thanks for the update Jim.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Hang in there Jim, your baby is almost delivered, you've just got to wait those last 10 minutes which are always the longest. :detective2:

[REDHKSC]

I'm not real happy right now... but I understand the reality of product development. The good news is that the project is not compromised, just delayed.

I also recognize that our customers deserve the straight scoop. Always.

Jim

Jim, never too late for the good things. I prefer waiting for a CHANGE.

Warmest regards,

Stewart

[Damien Molineaux]

Jim,

Thank you for keeping us updated, please continue.

To you and the rest of the team, hang in there, this will probably be the toughest part since you won't get the reward of progressing quickly like you have done so far. Of course I was hoping you would manage to jump through all the loop holes of bringing a product to market, but I know the final details take the longest time to dial in. We're all sitting here behind our screens cheering you on. I'm sure some, here or elsewhere, will start throwing out disrespectful comments, ignore them. Concentrate on what you are about to achieve, that will shut them up once and for all.

Cheers,
Damien

[Jesse Wendel]

Jim,

Thank you for letting us know what's going on, and for making certain we're left taken care of.

Also please note, the longer your hold, the more I'll (be able to) purchase. *laughs*

Best,

Jesse Wendel/Seattle

[ChristopherKenworthy]

I'm not real happy right now... but I understand the reality of product development. The good news is that the project is not compromised, just delayed.

I also recognize that our customers deserve the straight scoop. Always.

Jim

Thanks. The insight you give us is appreciated. The delay is fine, of course, but the best possible result I could dream of, is for production to ramp up after the first hundred or so serial numbers. I would love to get my hands on #1408 before November.

[Häakon]

I guess the news is rather unfortunate, but I suppose it hits me harder than others being one of the earliest supporters.

I wish you the best of luck in your home stretch... you don't need anyone to tell you there is a world of people waiting. :-)

[Desert Rune]

I'm sure other camera manufacturers have delays too but they are so secretive we never hear about them. So if Red is running into delays, I think it's normal... we just know about it, so for me, I'm not upset in the least.

Carry on...

[Brook Willard]

Delays are bummers, but I love that you're so willing to keep us informed. A company run the way a company should be...

Can't wait to see it when it's all ready to be seen.

[Martin Jäger]

hej!

i love delay! no joke.
does the "waiting time" give you
the opportunity to catch up with enabling
all the features from day one on?

i don't care - just curious :)

Martin

[Christian Berg]

Sorry to hear! You guys have done a great job so far. Hope everything works out well, as fast as possible... so you can start selling some cameras and get some money back. Development most be expensive?
/Christian

[RobRoySyd]

I'm sure other camera manufacturers have delays too but they are so secretive we never hear about them. So if Red is running into delays, I think it's normal... we just know about it, so for me, I'm not upset in the least.

Carry on...

The big camera manufacturers have huge advantages over RED, they have much larger production runs, make much of the components inhouse and many components are used accross multiple products. I suspect the tape transport used in the Z1 is the same as the one used in the PD170 for example. On top of that their production runs and hence purchasing volume is so large their suppliers give them very high priority.
Also they have future roadmaps that run far into the future, probably much of what we see coming from Sony today has been in the works for 5 years. This makes engineering and manufacturing so much easier than what RED is attempting to do.

[Priyesh P.]

That means more time to improve accessories and get some feedback.
Please give us some more info about the new bit´s n pieces you´ve been referring to, Jim.

[Tony Lorentzen]

The Devil is in the detail. Good luck, Jim.

[RED-Tank]

Thanks Jim!

Gives me more time to save!!!!

So do I, thank you RED team : ).

[Sean Michael Johnston]

Thanks for keeping us informed. I wish more companies were as starightforward and honest from the top.

[Chris Gearhart]

I'll add to the chorus of support, Jim. Delays are never fun for anybody, but we're all in this together. We're behind you all the way!

[Paul Hazlett]

Rock on Mr. Jannard....rock the f on...thanks for the info and do what you gotta do.

[Frank Weeks]

Your priorities are in order. To put out a substandard camera up front would be discouraging to the very people who believed in you first. It would also give ammunition to the non believers.

We have all become believers in something quite special. Your willingness to be up front about all things Red is appreciated.

Thankks

Frank Weeks
World Class Productions
Charter Media

[JD Holloway]

Like films,

Nobody remembers a late delivery,
Only a bad one.

You're a perfectionist and the product will/must reflect this.

Full support, "get 'er done".

J.

[Michael Mann]

Jim and team, thank you for your straightforward information policy. Take all the time that you need.

[Vincent Rice]

The 80/20 rule strikes again.

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

On October 2006 Macgregor wrote:

"Well, i dont want to be negative. I even have a RED prepayment done. But i think the task you have now is more complicated than what you have done.
I think i am trying to say that the product might be almost designed and engineered, but the boring task of "marketing", "build" and "distribute" in an assembly line is what i am most afraid of."


And tje kind Mr. Jarred Land replied: "the sensor is the monster hurdle .. thats the magic pudding. After you get a sensor that shoots 4k at 60fps, the rest of the stuff becomes just engineering.. something Jim has a history of dominating at."

And i belive that the last 10% is what usually takes the 90% of the hard work.

[Priyesh P.]

The camera WILL work, that´s a given, it´s only going to take a bit more time. (BTW, I don´t have a reservation - yet...)

[Steve Gibby]

Some of the productions I've contributed to were documentaries featuring triathlons and marathons. In shooting and editing them, and reviewing the footage of the finish line over and over, what struck me is the extreme effort that was necessary to cross the finish line - grit, will, and determination take over.

Nothing of any value is achieved easily...

Thanks for keeping us in the info loop Jim. As one of the very earliest reservation holders I'm not the slightest bit disappointed in the delay in receiving my camera. After witnessing all these months of development of RED One through this and other forums, its quite apparent to me that RED Team is thorough, frank, straighforward, and capable.

When its ready, its ready. If the last few facets in the diamond need to be cut, cut 'em now, then deliver it.

I support that 100%

[Dreamcine]

At NAB I waited in line 2hours... Twice! to see the PJ film before plunking down my money. I can wait a little longer.

[Jason Francois]

Like films,

Nobody remembers a late delivery,
Only a bad one.



Well said.

My reservation will stand as long as I can afford to wait and I'm hoping I can afford to wait as long as it takes.

I, too, think that delay isn't a bad thing. It may be frustrating for res holders and the RED team, but I know that the last 10% of me designing a house for somebody is always tough, but some very great things come out of the tension.

THanks for the heads up.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I use to do 60 and 100 mile cycling races. The Wichita Falls hotter than hell 100 mile is legendary.
I did it and the one thing I remember was the majority of people that quit only had 20 miles to go....
I can still remember what is was like crossing the finish line.

[David Mullen ASC]

It's much better to delay the camera and get things right than to put out something that needs immediate upgrades or has bugs and whatnot -- in the end, the delay will just be a minor historical footnote; what matters is that the camera itself delivers.

I have been doing some research on the history of prosumer cameras for an article I have to write, and while it's interesting to revisit these old dates, which month of which year the DVX100 was delivered, etc., few of us today think twice about it.

The RED camera is already a leap forward in camera engineering, created in record time, so I think people will cut you some slack now.

Good luck!

[Jarred Land]

And i belive that the last 10% is what usually takes the 90% of the hard work.

yes.. thats how the saying goes, kinda. Its all been hard work.

[roryhinds]

Take all the time thats needed as I'm sure Jim wants to get the camera out much as we want to start filming with it.

Not having any dates to work your business around is the frustrating bit.

[Henry Chung HKSC]

Hang in there, Jim, this is not an easy project.

But we are all for it and support it.

This is a historic project !

[Adrian T.]

Thank you Jim for being open and above board.
Keep up the great and magic work! :sorcerer:

[Jared VanLeuven]

What you all have been able to accomplish in 18 months' time is nothing short of amazing. The camera, and the journey to get there, will be legendary. A delay will be quickly forgotten by all. Our "impatience", if you will, can be misread sometimes - it's absolute Apple-style manic enthusiasm for being a part of this incredible story. We all thank you.

[Jaime Vallés]

Thanks for the update. It's very refreshing to hear this straight from the company. No nonsense. We appreciate all your hard work.

[Seth Larney]

Thanks Jim, I'm sure we all really appreciate the news. Your honesty goes a very long way.

Cheers,
Seth.

[Harmonica]

Thanks Jim!

Gives me more time to save!!!!

Ditto:)

[Jonathan Payne]

It's okay. It gives me more time to realize I still won't have enough money to get one when they come out :) But I'll get a Red one someday *shakes fist at the sun*

[shaftbond]

i just hope all of this makes it into the "making of" RED documentary. it'd be interesting to see the details someday :)

[Mike the beginner]

No worries and i hope things go all right

Mike the beginner

[jbeale]

Jim, I've delivered about 10 products to market and its nowhere near what you have done in your life but from my experience last 10% is a total pain. I had one project at Cisco where we worked 4 years to get a product to market... 2 months before shipping we did some mechanical testing on pre-pilot units and our main switching BGA popped off the board... turns out the vendor we were using ( a huge company BTW) changed the materials without letting us know. It slipped our schedule over a year. I can definitely relate to how you feel when you can see the finish line and someone trips you.

I was a designer at a very small company that supplied a product to Cisco... after a reliability issue was found on one of our alpha units, they wanted to have a meeting if we changed the color of any internal wiring (yes, literally). Slowed everything down more than we liked, but I can see where they were coming from. They held off on their final order a bit too long though. I heard later from our CTO that Cisco was finally ready to place the order- shortly after our company had been purchased by a larger competitor, shut down, and all employees laid off....

[peter roehsler]

Jim,
this has never been an ordinary product, rather a work in progress, therefore you have no ordinary customers here. You let us take part in the development to an extent unknown before RED. You listened to our suggestions, changed and improved specs as you went along. You were always open about the status of the project. We became a part of this and it goes without saying that we show patience when you need some extra time to deliver what you owe to yourself in the first place. If it´s good enough for you, it will be for most of us anyway. There is neither pressure nor fear from this side. We are with you in this and we trust you. As simple as that.

[Todd Anderson]

As always, appreciate the honestly and the integrity from you and your team, Jim. No problem from this res holder...

And on a lighter note, I think if Jarred just sends out a few more images of Noelle in the meantime, it would be enough of a pleasant distraction for all those hitting refresh on their browsers day to day...

And to everyone at Red... take a vacation day. Please.

[Eugene]

Sony had product delays with the PS3. It is to be expected.

[Paul Hazlett]

And on a lighter note, I think if Jarred just sends out a few more images of Noelle in the meantime, it would be enough of a pleasant distraction for all those hitting refresh on their browsers day to day....

Let us not forget our dear Kelly!!!....Red Jello wrestling between the two?

is that crass...sorry...overactive imagination.

[Adrian Correia]

allows me more time to save and afford more accessories! Just get it right the first time....good luck everyone at Red!

[Emanuel A.]

We have total confidence in you, as you know.

Thanks for the update.

[Keith Nealy]

As long as these are managable delays, I think we're all in agreement that delays are part of the process and you guys should take the time necessary to work things out.

If, on the other hand, you are backed into a corner with seemingly no way out - like - "In theory this looked like a good idea but in practice..." then it may be time to put on another pot of coffee and dig in.

You guys had an amazing run up to this point but don't let these hurdles set you back and get you down. We all have tremendous faith in your skills and determination to change the course of history and make our lives better for it.

Very often what happens is when overcoming challenges like the ones you are facing you find even more elegant or resouceful solutions than you planned for in the beginning - and the delay turns out to be a blessing in disguise.

In Hawaii, we believe everything happens for a reason and that everything will happen when it is supposed to happen.

The jews have a saying, "Man plans... and God laughs."

And, As they say, "all good things come to those who wait" so waiting will only make things better for us all in the long run.

Don't worry, you will have no pressure from us.

Jim, you have been more than fair, always acted with integrity, and your willingness to share with us what I know is very difficult news to share, is a testiment to the quality of leader you are.

As an Ex- Navy, combat Vietnam veteran, I'd follow you into battle anywhere - so lead on RED leader - we've got your six.

Aloha,

Keith :shiftyph34r:

[Miltos Pilalitos]

One or two months of delay are nothing compared to the one decade (or more) that i was made to believe will be the lifespan of this camera! (I hope even more)

I remember when i was waiting for my European JVC HD100 there was a delay of 2 or 3 months! They first released the JAP and US models which were found to be buggy so they had to make some hardware changes before they re-release it for the European market.

2 months after i finally got it, the firmware had to be upgraded because even more things had to be ironed out...

8 months later there was a new hardware revision that they called HD110! In less than a year i felt my camera was already old! This is something i hate nowadays and i hope i will not go through again with the RED.

Please take all the time to make things right!

Miltos

[Steve Gibby]

As an Ex- Navy, combat Vietnam veteran, I'd follow you into battle anywhere - so lead on RED leader - we've got your six.

Aloha,

Keith :shiftyph34r:

Very nicely put Keith. I'm a full-tour Viet Nam ( 1 year) U.S. Air Force veteran, and I couldn't agree more...

Aloha...

[Eugene]

The longer the delay, the better for those paying in Euros. The US dollar (and economy) are on the decline.

I remember when I was in Asia in 1997 when the currency conversion rate got better every day. It was great (for a US tourist,) untill riots started because people couldn't afford to buy food.

You guys in Europe have it made. The RED ONE gets cheaper every day. Just don't wait too long to buy one, because Jim might have to up the price if inflation rises.

[Tom Lowe]

Jim, we understand. These things happen in business!

tom

[Craig Bowman]

Keeping us in the loop is just such a Class Act Jim and I fully appreciate what its like dealing with suppliers and ironing out all the zillions of tiny details in ramping up for production.

[gcaussade]

I'm not someone waiting for a unit at the moment, so it's easy for me to say:

As a project manager (PMP), unless they padded their ship date significantly, a 90 day delay wouldn't even be a big surprise. The number of unknowns in a project like this must be extremely high. This is their first camera, with many "firsts" in technology, which is effectively a complex computer.

No one said there was going to be a 90 day delay, yet, but in my mind even a few months wouldn't count. If Red ships within 90 days of the set date, I'll find it a complete miracle! And, it looks like they are going to pull it off!

From a marketing perspective I'm sure the slippage stings... Watching history being made via the Internet has been a wonderful ride!

For a CEO to be so direct with the user base is incredibly refreshing!

Thank you, Red Team!:weight_lift:

-Jerry

[Milan Nikolic]

Reasonably short delay is acceptable. Just keep the product as promised or better. We all support you and the RED team.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Well Jim,

I'm cool.. But I'm also gonna be the honest one in the group and say if there is not at least a locked schedule by June, I will be very very worrried.

I don' t mind a delay that is clear and understood, but this "until further notice" type stuff can be a little frightening. I know many products that have died of old age at this very point.

You have tried so hard to be upfront, that it has bitten you a little.. To have a schedule, and then pull it off... Ouch... Yes you have always said "dates subject to change" but I am sure you know, no body really listened to that!

I have no doubt you will not post another schedule until you are pretty damn sure of the date.

As for me personally, as long as I know the delay is not living in an "unknown" timeframe, I LOVE the delay... Gives me time to get a better cash flow. Always a good thing!

Jay

[planet e]

RED has ramped up the digital revolution by several years, maybe even 10-15 before the majors would be willing or able to deliver a system like this, at this price point. maybe never.....so what's a few months?

stay with it, RED team.

[Priyesh P.]

RED has ramped up the digital revolution by several years, maybe even 10-15 before the majors would be willing or able to deliver a system like this, at this price point. maybe never.....so what's a few months?

stay with it, RED team.

In my opinion it´s more like 5 years. But the ultimate differences none of the other big guys can beat is pricing, user feedback and workflow.

[SF Geek]

I have to agree with Jay. I am getting nervous.

[Mike the beginner]

Well Jim,

I'm cool.. But I'm also gonna be the honest one in the group and say if there is not at least a locked schedule by June, I will be very very worrried.

I don' t mind a delay that is clear and understood, but this "until further notice" type stuff can be a little frightening. I know many products that have died of old age at this very point.

You have tried so hard to be upfront, that it has bitten you a little.. To have a schedule, and then pull it off... Ouch... Yes you have always said "dates subject to change" but I am sure you know, no body really listened to that!

I have no doubt you will not post another schedule until you are pretty damn sure of the date.

As for me personally, as long as I know the delay is not living in an "unknown" timeframe, I LOVE the delay... Gives me time to get a better cash flow. Always a good thing!

Jay

I understand what your saying Jay. Perhaps a tiny bit more information from Jim could ease the concern that some reservation holders are having.

Supplier difficulties could be any number of issues. Is it sensor supplies. Is it the body supplies or red drives or just some electronic parts and so forth. sensor supplies would be a real concern to everyone. It would be re-assuring to know that the supplier diffficulties are not serious but just simply pain in the a... delays.

I can fully understand the ton of details problems. Heck if we are all honest we have asked for more and more and red have done their absolute best to accomodate us in our requests. Some of these requests were well thought out details that demonstrate a great sense of expertise and knowledge by very clever DPs. I have been studying all this stuff for twop years now and i take my hat off to you guys, this whole business in complex detailed and hugely challanging. Red team are trying to supply a camera that satisfies such talented people and also ensure it specs way exceed your expectations and hugely innovative ideas.

A liitle unfair Jay to say they have bitten off more than they can chew. They have taken a massive bite out of the world of digital cinema. A liitle indigestion is no real suprise is it, in fact they have already achieved miracles.

I love your posts Jay and realise what you are saying but others new to this forum may take a different view of your post. At this difficult period for red team we should all be uniting firmly behind red and ease the massive pressure that must be building up for red team.

Get it right. Do it right. and deliver it as you see fit. We are with you all the way team red.

Mike the beginner

[jaadgy akanni]

If I may opine, this is my take on what's really happening behind the scenes:
I think the RED team's been ready for product release since shortly before NAB; But after NAB, the team came away with the realization that we only get ONE chance, only ONE chance to make an industry-changing impact, and if God4bid we fall short of that, not only is it embarrassing, but it also gives competitors a chance to capitalize on any possible weaknesses our product might present. Now, at this point, the RED team knows where all the possibilities and limits of our product lie(notice I say "our":biggrin: ), so I totally understand that at some point, the team felt obligated to meet the announced release date with the knowledge that the product could still be improved upon. But then they thought, why not make this BOMB as devastating (devastating to competitors) as it can be, while giving our faithful clients the best product we are able to produce right now instead of planning for unnecessary future upgrades? BTW, I've been drinking...:)

[Rick Darge]

you alcoholic! there's still light out!

[Emanuel A.]

Jim, we understand. These things happen in business!

tomIndeed. It wouldn't be a bad move to publish a new time table in order to all reservation holders know what we can expect. Scheduling is all what we can do now. Even if the delay may be a couple of months or if we'll only have our RED ONEs in 2008. IMHO, the scheduling is the most important. We're grown-up people.

Besides, the RED digital cinema camera project is already launched and on a good way -- actually I hadn't seen such phenomena before over a professional camera, device or format (whatever !). Of course, to keep up the hype alive is quite relevant for the future sales. So, as I always posted over here, it would be nice to have more footage from the prototypes. We all know they're not production units.

[planet e]

In my opinion it´s more like 5 years. But the ultimate differences none of the other big guys can beat is pricing, user feedback and workflow.

do you honestly think that in 5 years sony or panasonic would be releasing a 4K camera for $20,000, if RED had not come along? i'm pretty sure we would have been subjected to more relentless, torturous trickleware, instead of the new paradigms that are slowly gaining traction, like affordable larger chip sizes and an authentic solid state workflow.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I understand what your saying Jay. A liitle unfair Jay to say they have bitten off more than they can chew. They have taken a massive bite out of the world of digital cinema. A liitle indigestion is no real suprise is it, in fact they have already achieved miracles.

Mike the beginner

Mike... Didn't you read the thread where is says you are not allowed to disagree with me? I forgive you this time... :clown2:

I don' t recall EVER saying they bit off more than they can chew. Check my post and quote that if I'm wrong. In fact I believe that Jim and the boys are perhaps the most qualified of anyone out there to pull this off.

What I did say is that an unknown release schedule while currently locked in a "hold" will only go on so long before the natives get restless (Me being one of them). I have no doubt the RED team knows this.. I just wanted to say, I know it too.!

I am not Jim's friend, I wish I was, but I'm not. We know of each other online and have traded a few basic E-mails, but he does not know me or my family. in fact I know a lot more about him and his numerous kids than he will know about mine. To put it simply, I don't matter to him in any other way than me being a customer. Perhaps if we meet someday that will change, but to call someone a friend, I need a little more "real world" interest on both sides.

I support the RED team, cause I like 'em and believe in the project. I also have expectations as a customer. I'm just saying that.. That's all. The RAH RAH RED forum is nice, but I don't think there's anything wrong with saying: "A delay? That's cool, but don't leave me hanging out here TOO LONG".

I don't want this to blow up to be more than it is, my post only looks negative cause we're grading on a curve and everyone else is being EXTREMELY supportive.

Make you a bet, get to June 25th with no schedule or answer about one and see if you don't see a WHOLE lot of posts like mine, but not so nice. We have started with the team, but in the end, we want the camera.

This may sound stupid, but I am aware others are reading this forum as well, and I want them to know, we have our heads screwed on straight. We may be fanboys, but we also expect progress and we are not following Jim blindly. We're smart, professional, and nice.. But we're not a bunch of mindless clones that have been paid to write letters of worship to Jim Jannard. We respect him because up to now, he has done what he's priomised and earned the respect we give him as well as the others he's working with. Now Kelly is another story.. I'll respect her no matter what! :) (God it would be terrible if we were married Kelly... Think of your name!!)

Ok I hope I do not get burned here.. I pray this is not coming off like I am bitching... My goal was a little straightforward honesty.. Hope it worlked

Don't do anything to me Jim..... I'm fragile

Jay

[dalemccready]

A schedule is useful also to not keep promoting the camera to producers for upcoming projects, getting them excited and then having to let them know that it will be around just after their project wraps.

knowledge of a realistic schedule will only help Red as we are also on the ground promoting the product to ensure out investments pan out.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

What I did say is that an unknown release schedule while currently locked in a "hold" will only go on so long before the natives get restless (Me being one of them). I have no doubt the RED team knows this.. I just wanted to say, I know it too.!


No matter how restless the natives become they will not make this camera ready before it's ready.

Would you prefer they send you an unfinished camera? Would this make you more calm and happy?

Miltos

[Jay A. Kelley]

Miltos that is not what we said.. Please try to keep from turning this into somthing it's not

Jay

[dalemccready]

No matter how restless the natives become they will not make this camera ready before it's ready.

Would you prefer they send you an unfinished camera? Would this make you more calm and happy?

Miltos

Did we write that Miltos? I think it is fair and reasonable to voice a counter view here, or is that not allowed?

Of course I want the camera to be as good as possible, but some idea of timing would be helpful. All up this is still a fairly large investment (though relatively cheap of course compared to other products) and so getting the best idea of when that investment wil need to be made is handy.

I personally would be quite happy if it had to be delayed till next year, and the camera flawless in it's durability, quality and work-flow. As long as I knew up front that it would be the case.

Of course I also recognise that Red have not said how long this hold will be, it could be that we'll get a better idea very soon.

But I think it is a little unfair to judge another's reaction to the announcement. I'm no hobbyist, this camera is a business decision for me, and I do take these decisions seriously. It may define what work I am engaged in for the next few years. I have also paid a deposit already for both a camera and accessories. Would you buy any other product and expect to an open ended delivery date? I don't think so (but then I can't answer for you can I?)

...regardless. Keep up what so far has been a terrific endeavour Red team. I look forward to shooting a project on the camera.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Yes Miltos.. I would, I want the camera sent to me in 1,000,000 tiny parts that I have to pick up tweezers and keep the dog from eating.. After all, that was the point of my post right? I want the camera BEFORE it's ready...

I think what you meant to say (But failed to do it kindly) is that no matter the mental state of the customers, the camera cannot ship until it's ready to ship. Uh... Yeah... We know this. That was not my post so perhaps you were thinking of someone else.. My post was about the schedule or lack of it. Being in the dark for too long can be problematic. That's all.

jay

I am sorry if what i said failed to sound more kind. Maybe i should use some emoticons.

There are a million reasons for RED NOT to announce a schedule before they are ready to announce one. It only takes for someone to stop being egocentric for a while to realize this. There are so many things at stake for this camera and its development team when all the world is waiting to judge with the most critical eye their product.

This company has demonstrated from day 1 that it has a different philosophy and a different relationship with their customers. Their openness should not be awarded with ungratefulness during the time they mostly need our support.

Like you many others including me have projects on hold that wait for this miracle camera. Projects that were build exclusively for this camera and what it brings to our work. Believe me, you don't want this camera more than hundreds of people here.

Be patient, respect the team. We are all boiling on the same pot

[Jay A. Kelley]

Actually Miltos I tried to delete this post cause I was being a jerk.. Glad you did not swing at the pitch... Thanks..

Yes we are all in this together, and I am NOT NOT NOT just bitching.. I had hoped my post would not sound that way, but I fear it will.. Some editing may be in order.
Jay

[Miltos Pilalitos]

:love:

[Brook Willard]

Easy, guys...

[Antoine Fabi]

This is PERFECTLY NORMAL!!!!!

I'm very impressed by your honesty, your transparency, and by your F1 speed.

Guys...take some rest please!

I truly believe you're the fastests, but great realisations also take some time...NORMAL.

Cheers to all of you.

[dalemccready]

Please don't get me wrong all, I'm a fan boy all the way, I just think that Jay had a right to post that a delay made him nervous. Understandable, human even.

Regardless, I have the utmost respect for what Red is attempting. It's not often I'd get on board sight unseen for an imaging system, but then I've always had great faith based upon the people involved.

I used to have a rule to never buy a camera. So much for that. I guess its just too big a deal to ignore eh?

[Steve Sherrick]

I had voiced a similar concern as Jays and I know exactly where he is coming from. It may sound negative, but to me I think it makes good business sense to pose the question. Jim has been very upfront with us, and I'm sure he expects we'll be pretty open and honest in return. As a customer, we're simply inquiring what this delay means for our own business plans. I'm woking with a director who's trying to decide whether to shoot 35mm or do some tests with Red and see if it fits the film's style. I've been hyping Red to him for a long time. If I know Red will be on hold for a while, I can tell this director to move ahead with 35mm, no big deal.

Having said all that, I respect Jim's approach as well. When everything is ready, that's when it will ship. We all have the option of getting our money back. It's not like we are locked in. I just hope they'll be able to ride the huge wave of momentum they have going for them right now. Of course, as long as there is no other company out there with a 4K camera for that price point, it will be fairly easy to keep people excited.

I know I'm still excited!

Steve

[roryhinds]

I'm with Jay on this one. There are a lot of business people out there who are worried about the vagueness.

We as customers are all shouting loud about our camera and how great it will be for a production, gathering momentum with future clients.

Hearing the words "Delay" causes panic with the unknowing of when the camera will show up. This is compounded with us having a schedule then not having one.

Its simply very hard to remain enthusiastic with potential clients when you don't know when you're getting the camera and as a business person you start to feel like you're following blindly which makes me uneasy in a professional market.

Delays are fine, the camera needs to be ready. But we need a date to work our business around.

And yes of course I'm still excited, but this is a serious business venture.

[Clayton Harper]

The only people who REALLY have any cause to worry about the delay are people with July and August productions who might have been able to shoot with the Red. How crushing to miss shooting your production with this amazing new camera. Everything else is just ants in the pants.

If there is a "oh shit we can't make the cameras ever" type issue, we need to be made aware of that. Otherwise, it's just logistics and I have confidence they will work things about.

Look at the resumes and relax. That's what I based my deposit on more than a year ago and as far as I can tell we still have the same dream team solving the problem.

That being said, people should hold the flames on Jay because it is not unreasonable to ask what's going on in light of a sliding delivery date and vague language on the subject.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Whew... Glad I'm not getting flamed on this....

Jay

[Mardi_Gras]

IMHO this seems like a very valid argument and I'm pretty certain Jim, with his openness and inclusive approach to work, will not be inflamed in the least. Jay has a valid point and we all agree that we're in this with Jim, no matter what, but some sort of timeline wouldn't hurt either.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the PJ short in its entirety while we await some sought of firm updates from Jim and the team.

[Michael Schrengohst]

That is why I am waiting until I have the RED in my hands and have shot footage
with it before I proclaim to everyone that I will have a RED.
I will have a website showing the reasons to shoot with a RED but
producing slick RED websites is the last thing I will be doing.
Until potential clients have seen footage that YOU shot with your RED
it does not matter what you are saying on your website.
Even then you will have to show clients work that you produced using other cameras
to win any contracts you may shoot with your RED.
I understand and feel your frustrations but prudent business practices should be the rule.

[Medavoym]

Guys,

You know what I'm most worried about? I mean I was really taken aback by it.

It was actually Jim saying "the good news is the project is not COMPROMISED, just delayed". Compromised? I didn't think that word was in Jim's vocabulary. Seriously, the simple fact of him even mentioning this possibility struck me. Now I see it was edited out. Good thing.

Was this option ever discussed within the RED team? Was it ever an alternative, even a very remote one? I truly hope not. I don't imagine Jim even typing this word.

[Emanuel A.]

Don't do anything to me Jim..... I'm fragile

JayLOL


A schedule is useful also to not keep promoting the camera to producers for upcoming projects, getting them excited and then having to let them know that it will be around just after their project wraps.

knowledge of a realistic schedule will only help Red as we are also on the ground promoting the product to ensure out investments pan out.I'm pleased I'm not alone and there are others with the same thought than myself. A true real schedule is all what we can request.

I'm sure Jim shall give us as soon as he can. Without more further updates, if possible.

Because (quoting or following Jay) we don't want unsatisfied RED customers at all (including from next 25th June -- what will it happen then, Jay?... A party @yours? :clown2: :sorcerer: :spidy: :construction: ).

I'm keeping to believe the (realistic) scheduling is the most important, no matter if we'll shoot @2007 or only @2008 -- frankly, I wouldn't like to damage your mood here but I would bet on the latter hypothesis.

[Gopher77]

I guess it should be no surprise that this thread is over 100 posts long, but why? If you've been in this business for any length of time there are a few things you should know by now, never start a production without the full budget in the bank, never build someones hopes on maybes, and learn to work with what you've got.

I'm sure that the red team is not sitting idle while they wait for the manufacturing to be worked out, which means a better camera for us in the long run. I'm also sure that Jim knows we're dying for info and will provide it when he has it. So get the cameras you have out and go shoot, and let red build us the best camera they can.

BTW if you think this is unusual try going and buying dolly track right now, it's a 90 day backorder and the aren't redesining anything.

[Stephen Williams]

I'm keeping to believe the (realistic) scheduling is the most important, no matter if we'll shoot @2007 or only @2008 -- frankly, I wouldn't like to damage your mood here but I would bet on the latter hypothesis.

Hi,

I think the reason Jim has not given a a new schedule is because he really does want to guess. If he says there is a 1 week delay, then it slips to 3 weeks people won't be happy. The longer he takes to answer the question, the more accurate his answer will be.

Stephen

[Gordon Prince]

Guys,

You know what I'm most worried about? I mean I was really taken aback by it.

It was actually Jim saying "the good news is the project is not COMPROMISED, just delayed". Compromised? I didn't think that word was in Jim's vocabulary. Seriously, the simple fact of him even mentioning this possibility struck me. Now I see it was edited out. Good thing.Not really...
I'm not real happy right now... but I understand the reality of product development. The good news is that the project is not compromised, just delayed. Page 2

[Emanuel A.]

Hi,

I think the reason Jim has not given a a new schedule is because he really does want to guess. If he says there is a 1 week delay, then it slips to 3 weeks people won't be happy. The longer he takes to answer the question, the more accurate his answer will be.

StephenStephen,

I fully agree.

E.

[Don King]

Hi,

I think the reason Jim has not given a a new schedule is because he really does want to guess. If he says there is a 1 week delay, then it slips to 3 weeks people won't be happy. I do not think it is a question of weeks what it'll hurt the people's interest. I'm afraid we're thinking on months or something like Kinetta.

[Priyesh P.]

I'm afraid we're thinking on months or something like Kinetta.

Please don´t say it. That´s the ultimate horror...

[Steve Gibby]

My advice is: relax guys...they've been straight up with us throughout the entire development process, and I don't see that changing. Don't let your imaginations get carried away. Most of you won't even be affected by this engineering delay. It's the early serial numbers like mine that are most affected, and do you hear any of us early serial number holders fretting and quibbling on this thread? I don't sense any problems at all, RED is wise to delay as necessary, the delay will even add more improvements to the camera, and they've been communicative and forthright all through this development process.

Those of you who are having runaway imagination problems need to pause at your keyboards and think about what I said in my paragraph above. We're all anxious to get our hands on RED One, especially those of use who've waited the longest. But I fully trust RED to finish this project up completely and effectively.

Relax...

[Jay A. Kelley]

It's good advice Gibby.. But I don't think it's needed right now.. Everyone seems pretty cool.. Me included.

This will be GREAT advice later perhaps.. But even then I expect things to be back on the rails and running full speed ahead.

We're just talking....

Jay

[Emanuel A.]

Make you a bet, get to June 25th with no schedule or answer about one and see if you don't see a WHOLE lot of posts like mine, but not so nice. We have started with the team, but in the end, we want the camera.Steve is right! Anxiety is not productive. This reminds me an old discussion:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=35481#post35481

I believe we all would win from a good hype. This forum as well. There's room for an useful and helpful shake.

[CJ Roy]

I'm an early res. holder and I'm concerned.
I've been vouching and praising the camera for over a year now, and my clients are asking "Where's that camera you keep talking about?"

Now I don't have a target date to tell them, and they're going back to budgeting for 35mm. I don't completely mind a delay, as long as there's a ballpark approximation of the ship date. I need to tell my clients something.
-CJ Roy

[SF Geek]

I think Jay's concerns are the same as mine. Everyone keeps replying that Red will put out the camera when it's ready and the best it can be, but what i'm worried about is the suppliers not being able to deliver the parts. That stuff is out of Red's hands.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I am glad to see this happening.. For Steve and others who tell those concerned to "calm down", please understand that I am SURE no one is upset, or freaking out. They are simply saying, "hey, this is an issue... I have faith, but I am watching this unfold.. Timely information will keep me calm."

This is what any professional would do. Here's an example:

Do you all think Jim got on the phone to his suppliers when they told him they were not ready yet and said "That's cool, I belive in you.. It will be ready when it's ready, and TAKE YOUR TIME!"

:)

Something tells me, that did not happen.

There is nothing bad happening here.. It's just real and honest. We do not need to blindly worship Jim and RED in order to love them. If we did, I think they would lost a lot of respect and trust in us.

A client that tells me I am wonderful and my work is great, then goes off and voices concerns to others behind my back, is the WORST type of person to work with. I cannot trust them to tell me what they don't like.

Jim gets grief from his enemys all the time.. He get's praise from his worshippers. What he needs is feedback, both good and bad, he can trust from people who have both his, AND their own best interests at heart.

In that vein, some of us are simply saying.. We hear you about the delay, and we understand, but we need a schedule A.S.A.P. in order to keep things on our end running smoothly. In a way this is all terribly obvious. But sometimes saying it can give him ammo to use on slow suppliers. You never know, but a little pressure can be a good thing.. Personally I doubt any of this affects him at all.. They are all 1,000 feet into this, and notes like this one don't matter. The only thing I could do as a customer that would really raise a red flag would be for me and a significant number of others to pull our deposits because of the delay and we are 5 million miles away from that nightmare. We're gonna be fine.. I have faith.

Jay

[Steve Gibby]

CJ,

You're a relatively early res holder who by the original timetable posted would have received your camera sometime in August. There's been no indication that those cameras originally scheduled for August delivery won't meet that timeframe, so why jump to conclusions that yours won't be delivered sometime in August as originally announced? The first of my RED One cameras, #8, was originally posted as delivering in April/May. May isn't even half over yet. RED Team has stated that the first cameras to be delivered would be the most affected by the engineering deadline. I take that to mean the original April/May/June scheduled cameras. They also said that just because the first cameras would be delayed, not to assume that later one's would be. If I were in your shoes, I'd avoid assuming that your originally mentioned August delivery will be late, and not worry about briefing clients until maybe late-June or when you get another timeframe for delivery.

We all have clients and projects. On the original schedule I would have probably had #8 by now - but I'm not sweating it for the reasons I posted previously. IMO you stand a good chance of getting your camera on the same timeline you were originally quoted - sometime in August.

[Jannard]

Jay,

Notes like this one do matter. And we are trying to get everything done as quickly as possible. But we have been very careful to say that the schedule could change at any minute becuase this is such a difficult trick. Given that, everyone should naturally have a contingency plan for their projects... and hope they don't need them.

Jim

[James T Mather]

No worries Jim, thanks for the post. Good to get feedback. Much appreciated.

Keep up the good work over there at Red.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hey Jim,

Well....I am aware some people have planned projects around your release date. While this is something I would not do myself, I am aware they did it. I come from the school of "If it's not in your hands, don't plan to use it".

I have a question for you: Do you believe it's realistic to lock a schedule within the next 5 weeks or so? If this question does not have an answer, then how much time do you need to know when you may be able to have a revised and reliable release schedule?

I am aware that it's also possible you are waiting for certain things to break in order to answer this very question, but I just thought I would ask

Jay

PS: Thanks for not biting my head off and understanding where I am coming from.. I was nervous!

[nathanail nathanailoglou]

This is for having the camera in the best starting position so let's wait a little bit more......:construction:

[Mike the beginner]

Jays Quote:You have tried so hard to be upfront, that it has bitten you a little.. Quote

Oops i really do owe you an apology Jay, i thought you said bitten off more than they can chew! Really sorry about that:blush:


I would imagine the "we have encountered "a ton of detail issues" would be kinda hard to figure out when they will all be sorted. Like what are the solutions and how do we apply them to each and every one of the details that are issues.

I myself will not press red team or jim on what the supplier delivery problems actually involves. What supply is er,,,causing the delay type of thing?

I guess a lot of poeple just want re-assured the problems are solvable and not too serious.

Mike the beginner

[Damien Molineaux]

Thank you Jim for the feedback and your continued presence here. I find it reassuring to know you're there listening. I also have people asking me: "so when's that camera coming?". Right now I'm pretty relaxed, I say it was never meant to arrive before August, and it may be delayed. I certainly hope not by too much however.

To all my fellow res holders, I'm eagerly awaiting for a new delivery scedule, but I understand two things. The first is that the next schedule better hold, so we don't get disapointed and to not feed the nay sayers with arguments. The second thing is, the camera better live up to expectations right from the get go, too many problems may kill this project.

So, let's breath slowly and steadily and give Jim and team our support, because that's all we can do.

Cheers,
Damien

[Jannard]

All the problems are completely solvable... whew!

When this is all over and done (product in production and deliveries underway) I'd love to give a recap of some the process we had to go through. It might make for interesting reading... we'll maybe for a couple of people.

I expect (with all the tradional precautions) that we will be able to give a locked down schedule in 5 weeks (your number). But, remember that things can change... :-)

Jim

[Joe Aurili]

I never had a doubt. Of course I just have to sit here doing nothing ;)


All the problems are completely solvable... whew!

When this is all over and done (product in production and deliveries underway) I'd love to give a recap of some the process we had to go through. It might make for interesting reading... we'll maybe for a couple of people.

I expect (with all the tradional precautions) that we will be able to give a locked down schedule in 5 weeks (your number). But, remember that things can change... :-)

Jim

[dalemccready]

I'm looking forward to seeing the doco!

Also to seeing the footage get spectacularly better looking about half way through.

[Gunleik Groven]

5 weeks.

I'd love to see/read the behind the scenes stuff when it comes -;)

Cheers!

Gunleik

[Jay A. Kelley]

Wow...

Thanks Jim! I'm going into "shut up" mode for a while then while you find new and improved ways to threaten the families of the suppliers that are holding things up. (Horse heads in people's beds have been done... So you know) Some day it would be cool to talk on the phone or something.. Hope that can happen...

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Boy I really loved this thread.. Only thing missing was a cool post from Mr. Mullen!

There's got to be a way for all of us to get together some day!
Jay

[nathanail nathanailoglou]

All the problems are completely solvable... whew!

I expect (with all the tradional precautions) that we will be able to give a locked down schedule in 5 weeks (your number). But, remember that things can change... :-)

Jim

Great news !!!!
Try to keep all these problems in your calendar so when everything will be fine you could refresh your memory and give a smile.....:spidy:

[CJ Roy]

CJ,

You're a relatively early res holder who by the original timetable posted would have received your camera sometime in August. There's been no indication that those cameras originally scheduled for August delivery won't meet that timeframe, so why jump to conclusions that yours won't be delivered sometime in August as originally announced?

Hi Gibby,

For clarification, when I first reserved my camera, the estimated (although subject to change) date was 1st quarter '07. The pre-NAB delivery schedule was June. I was never told an August date, so I'm unsure of where that came from.

As for the conclusions... what conclusions? I have not pulled my order, have not convinced anyone else to pull theirs. I have voiced a mild concern, which has been the very same concern clients have voiced to me. I'm not out of line and this is not Red-bashing. I'm sure if Red knew when they could deliver, they would inform us. The fact that we have not been informed, is what concerns me.

If this is not the appropriate board to discuss this, then I apologize and feel free to delete my comments.

Thanks.

-CJ Roy

[Mike the beginner]

All the problems are completely solvable... whew!
When this is all over and done (product in production and deliveries underway) I'd love to give a recap of some the process we had to go through. It might make for interesting reading... we'll maybe for a couple of people.

I expect (with all the tradional precautions) that we will be able to give a locked down schedule in 5 weeks (your number). But, remember that things can change... :-)

Jim


There you go, that is fantastic news indeed. Worries gone for everybody.

Mike the beginner

[Häakon]

CJ,

You're a relatively early res holder who by the original timetable posted would have received your camera sometime in August.
In CJ's defense, the timetable released around NAB indicated that the first 100 cameras were scheduled for a June release, not August. We are all aware that these things can happen and the entire RED team has been extremely forthright during this whole process that things can ("and will") change. There's nothing that anyone should be holding against them in that regard.

However, when the original schedule was posted, most of the early serial number holders (myself included) took that as a pretty solid indication of when we could expect our cameras, as they have met (or exceeded!) all of their target dates so far. I am extremely happy to hear that any potential bumps in the road have been smoothed out, but if it's going to be another 5 weeks before a new schedule is even posted, that puts us 3/4 of the way through June as it is - the period where several of us were originally expecting to already have our cameras. So as much as I don't fault RED for their delays (I honestly think I educate people about their system and sing their praises just about more than anyone), I also don't think it's helpful to make excuses on their behalf. Hopefully we'll hear more soon... the clients are definitely barking. :-)

This whole discussion is clearly all about perspective; the later your serial number, the less of a chance you even have of being affected by the delay at all (which is why the majority of the posts on this topic defending the delay are by serial holders much later in the game who have little or nothing riding on the timetable). As one of the very first reservation holders and earliest believers in the project, it does matter to me when the camera is released and I feel like I shouldn't be penalized the most for being one of the first in line. That being said, I know that Jim & Co. are doing everything they can and will release it when they are ready. I think a lot of us just got really excited at the prospect of the original timetable, which in hindsight, probably was biting off a little more than they could chew. All of this will be moot by the end of the year; I'm just dissapointed that there are several summer projects which could have greatly benefitted from using RED that will probably have to go back to the original 35mm plans due to nonavailability. Nothing I'm doing is RIDING on RED... but I for one would prefer to use it more than anything else. I do believe it represents a big shift in the choices that we have as filmmakers. That's why I'm here, and that's why I have put so much time and passion into this project! :-)

[Jay A. Kelley]

their praises just about more than anyone), I also don't think it's helpful to make excuses on their behalf. Hopefully we'll hear more soon... the clients are definitely barking. :-)

As an aside, I've actually agreed with a lot of what you've said Jay, but I find it funny to read posts like:

If it's not in your hands, then, why would you be locking a schedule in 5 weeks? :bleh:

I RELEASE schdule you smart ass.. Not a SHOOTING schedule!!

:tongue:

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

For clarification, when I first reserved my camera, the estimated (although subject to change) date was 1st quarter '07. The pre-NAB delivery schedule was June. I was never told an August date, so I'm unsure of where that came from.

As for the conclusions... what conclusions? I have not pulled my order, have not convinced anyone else to pull theirs. I have voiced a mild concern, which has been the very same concern clients have voiced to me. I'm not out of line and this is not Red-bashing. I'm sure if Red knew when they could deliver, they would inform us. The fact that we have not been informed, is what concerns me.

If this is not the appropriate board to discuss this, then I apologize and feel free to delete my comments.

Thanks.

-CJ Roy

CJ,

As you mentioned, effectively no delivery schedule with numbers was given until the one before NAB. I misread your reservation number, and the pre-NAB schedule has been taken down. Thus the "August". My bad. If you re-read your post, it does sounds like you had come to a conclusion that your camera wouldn't deliver on time. At the time your post, and mine referring to it, were made, Jim Jannard had not posted his update about potentially expecting a lockin schedule in 5 weeks (around 6/17). There's nothing in my post that accused you of "RED bashing".

We have now been informed that we can probably expect a locked in schedule in about 5 weeks. That should help everyone's planning. As a producer/director I regularly have to shift to a temporary Plan B, as I'm sure you do too.

[Jay A. Kelley]

When this is all over and done (product in production and deliveries underway) I'd love to give a recap of some the process we had to go through. It might make for interesting reading... we'll maybe for a couple of people.
Jim

I REALLY want to read this recap..... I bet it's been a wild ride so far.

Jay

[Häakon]

I RELEASE schdule you smart ass.. Not a SHOOTING schedule!!

:tongue:
Sorry Jay, I misunderstood your post. The first part was about shooting schedules, and I didn't see the transition clearly. I apologize.

I still think that the higher the reservation number, the less people seem to care about the delay(s)... which is only logical and makes sense. If you're number 300+ on the list, then Mike is probably right... there's no reason to lose sleep over it at all. It's the earlier serial numbers that have more of a stake in when the initial release happens.

[Steve Gibby]

C'mon Haakon, tell it like it is...Jay you're a pain in the _ _ _ !

:whistling: :biggrin:

(you know I'm kidding, right?)

[Emanuel A.]

Thank you Jim for the feedback and your continued presence here. I find it reassuring to know you're there listening. I also have people asking me: "so when's that camera coming?". Right now I'm pretty relaxed, I say it was never meant to arrive before August, and it may be delayed. I certainly hope not by too much however.

To all my fellow res holders, I'm eagerly awaiting for a new delivery scedule, but I understand two things. The first is that the next schedule better hold, so we don't get disapointed and to not feed the nay sayers with arguments. The second thing is, the camera better live up to expectations right from the get go, too many problems may kill this project.

So, let's breath slowly and steadily and give Jim and team our support, because that's all we can do.

Cheers,
DamienI second you. The Jim's presence here is the most important proof that's not a Kinetta -- period.

I'd prefer if we all might think 2008 as a new target date and -- if it would be possible to deliver first, we all would be surprised by Jim once again. Although an accurate schedule would still be better. But please don't push earlier dates. We need a powerful RED ONE, not in a hurry-piece-of-hassles!

[Jay A. Kelley]

C'mon Haakon, tell it like it is...Jay you're a pain in the _ _ _ !

:whistling: :biggrin:

(you know I'm kidding, right?)

Ok.. That's the last straw.. You better lay down Gib, cause you already dead!!!

(I love that threat!!)

This is a fun thread...

:usd:

[Steve Gibby]

Ok.. That's the last straw.. You better lay down Gib, cause you already dead!!!

(I love that threat!!)

This is a fun thread...

:usd:

:cold: :gun: :rip_1:

(LOL!)

[Roberto B]

As for the conclusions... what conclusions? I have not pulled my order, have not convinced anyone else to pull theirs. I have voiced a mild concern, which has been the very same concern clients have voiced to me. I'm not out of line and this is not Red-bashing. I'm sure if Red knew when they could deliver, they would inform us. The fact that we have not been informed, is what concerns me.

completely there i am.. yoda says i'd have had different plans for my 2007 if i had guess this uncertain delay.. early 2007 it already was.. it has been changed for late 2007.. 6 months later.. at least..

[Jay A. Kelley]

completely there i am.. yoda says i'd have had different plans for my 2007 if i had guess this uncertain delay.. early 2007 it already was.. it has been changed for late 2007.. 6 months later.. at least..


I don't want to flop around here, but seriously guys, Jim used everything short of smoke signals to say the dates were not set in stone. When the first schedule, and every schedule after that came out, he said the dates were subject to change.

What we're talking about here is the "unspoken intent". In other words, Jim EXPECTED his schedule to work and the fact that it did not go the way he wanted it was the cause for my note that started this..

HOWEVER: Anyone making any type of plans on the prior schedule does so at his own risk.

Let's look at this from a business perspective and put it to rest go I can go back to threatening Gibby...:

What we know:

All current issues RED is having in engineering have CONFIRMED solutions. There is nothing stopping them in that way (If I understood Jim correctly).

Jim feels reasonably safe saying he can provide a locked schedule within 5 weeks.

So there you go.. It's not a question of "if" it's just "when" and the "when" does not seem that bad.

Hope this helps

Jay

Now Gibby....:ninja: :gun: :pirate: :rip_1:

[roryhinds]

No one ever doubted RED would deliver it was the unknowing that was the breaking point.

Now we have another date to work with "5 weeks" till we get a schedule which is great news and something we can base our calculations with.

So I don't feel in the dark anymore, at least there is some candle light in the corner and I can confidently do my business.

Thanks Jim for your feedback.

[Tom Lowe]

Anyone with any sense could tell that original dates for shipping were way too optimistic. I mean, we all knew how far along the project was at any given moment -- Franky, Boris, etc -- so how would a camera in such an early-to-middle stage of development possibly ship finished products to people in first quarter 07? Or even summer?

With camera 400, I figured all along that we were looking at fall ship dates, and probably a very good chance we'd get it by end of the year.

As others have pointed out, Jim has always been careful to telegraph very loudly and openly that these dates are subject to change.

I'm sure most of us have been involved in one kind of entrepreneurial effort or another -- whether trying to start a business or just making a film or something. There is one rock solid lesson I have learned with every business effort I have made:

It's going to cost three times as much and take twice as long as you figured.

[Keith Alan Morris]

Exact-u-mundo!


Anyone with any sense could tell that original dates for shipping were way too optimistic. I mean, we all knew how far along the project was at any given moment -- Franky, Boris, etc -- so how would a camera in such an early-to-middle stage of development possibly ship finished products to people in first quarter 07? Or even summer?

With camera 400, I figured all along that we were looking at fall ship dates, and probably a very good chance we'd get it by end of the year.

As others have pointed out, Jim has always been careful to telegraph very loudly and openly that these dates are subject to change.

I'm sure most of us have been involved in one kind of entrepreneurial effort or another -- whether trying to start a business or just making a film or something. There is one rock solid lesson I have learned with every business effort I have made:

It's going to cost three times as much and take twice as long as you figured.

[david farland]

Jim,
Opening this thread you reported a few issues/supplier delays.
But more importantly, how will Red hardware/software/data perform when integrated with 3rd party hardware/software.
This has the potential to have an even greater impact on Red?
Do you want suggestions from this forum on UAT scope/approaches, or even systematic beta testing in a variety of workflows?
We’d very much like to help you!

Cheers,

Dave

[Jannard]

The workflow part of this seems pretty straight-forward. REDCINE works. REDCODE is supported in FCP and the conversion to ProRes works fine. Scratch supports REDCODE natively. Plenty of proven choices. Our delay is caused by several hardware issues... that we are working on.

Jim

[Peter McCully]

The workflow part of this seems pretty straight-forward. REDCINE works. REDCODE is supported in FCP and the conversion to ProRes works fine. Scratch supports REDCODE natively. Plenty of proven choices. Our delay is caused by several hardware issues... that we are working on.

Jim

Well, I for one am willing to wait for it. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

[Brook Willard]

A handful of weeks to perfect a few hardware issues on the camera seems to logically leave a few extra weeks for the team members not working on the camera to add some features and goodies to their own babies... be it software, integration or accessories. That's some good news mixed in there if you ask me!

That is, unless everybody over there really is a special-forces ninja who has mastered all trades... ;) :)

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Jay,

Notes like this one do matter. And we are trying to get everything done as quickly as possible. But we have been very careful to say that the schedule could change at any minute becuase this is such a difficult trick. Given that, everyone should naturally have a contingency plan for their projects... and hope they don't need them.

Jim

I have a contingency plan, but I hate it, because it's old-fashioned and expensive and not as good as Red. I really don't want to use it. In fact, I think I'd rather change the shoot date rather than shoot with an inferior camera.

[Tom Lowe]

This is one of the reasons I planned my first RED feature for summer 08.

[Rob Lohman]

That is, unless everybody over there really is a special-forces ninja who has mastered all trades... ;) :)

If I tell you, I'd have to kill you :red_bandana: :bye2:

[Neurodancer]

It always amazes me how many people take an emotional roller coaster ride on user boards for new product releases. I label this as intangible constructs, since nothing exists that we can get our hands on, but exist solely in the mind till the product is released.

Humans have such a propensity and capacity to immerse themselves into this realm of intangible constructs. The new toys will keep coming. There will always be nicer ones on the horizon. How much do we miss that which is in front of as we cast our gaze on this horizon? More simply put; we can spend time in this non-existent realm or we can spend our time working with the tools at hand. I prefer the later. When the Red lands in my lap is when it will be real.

I am sure I will take some heat for this.

[dalemccready]

*sizzle* ...nah don't think so. ;)

Tried online auctions lately? As soon as people bid they think they already own the stuff! ...I think this forum gets quite excited over this interesting new invention, and hey why not? But it's been a little slow and people are getting itchy since we had so many cool images from NAB. I feel like William Burroughs on a bad day! Gimme RED! :)

I think people actively engage in the rollercoaster because it's enjoyable. Rollercoasters are more fun when you get on and take the ride than when you're just standing in line watching.

[Häakon]

It always amazes me how many people take an emotional roller coaster ride on user boards for new product releases. I label this as intangible constructs, since nothing exists that we can get our hands on, but exist solely in the mind till the product is released.
I think the reason that some of us feel it's more tangible than others is that we got to touch it, look through the lens, see the live output, and get a firsthand demonstration of the post process workflow at NAB. The sensor is real, we've seen what it can do, and we know exactly what the camera is capable of in the hands of a worthy cinematographer. This is eons more information and actual, hands-on experience than just about any other camera company has given during a brand new product launch. It's an unconventional move for an unconventional company and there is no question that the word is spreading. The downside of having everyone's attention is that you are bound to ruffle some feathers when you put out a preliminary schedule and then have to take it off the website and say "come back in five weeks."

Many of us have been waiting for the day that a digital cinema camera would hit the market with the resolution we crave but a price we can realistically afford. I made a post on DVXUser over a year ago stating that Panasonic has their own solid state technology (P2), the technological know-how and ability to offer variable frame rate recording, and the chipsets and manufacturing processes necessary to yield high-quality, high-resolution (1080p, at least) sensors. So where is their native 1080 P2 camera that can shoot variable framerates? They keep dicking around with models that leave out some or most of the pieces causing the user to be forced to make some sort of compromise with their gear. (For instance, the Varicam is tape-based and tops out at 720p, the HPX500 uses a standard-def PAL CCD and pixelshifts to get their 1080 resolution, and even their brand-new, "top of the line" AJ-HPX3000G with a $48,000 pricetag won't do variable framerates. Come on, that's a joke!)

With RED, they have shown that they're taking the effort extremely seriously and doing everything in their power to create the most feature-rich, comprehensive camera they can that not only works hard through firmware upgradability and a massive sensor size to "make obsolesence obsolete," but at a price that isn't greedy and doesn't break the bank. I realize companies the size of Panasonic have way more overhead than RED, but Jim's in this venture to make money - he's not giving these things away. If he can figure out a way to give us a 4K camera for $17,500 AND turn a profit and the "other guys" are still dangling pixelshifted carrots in our face and asking $48 grand a pop for them, it sounds like some reorganization is in order.

Meanwhile, the entire RED team has been very forward with its user base and been extremely open about the process so far. They've given us dozens of renders of camera designs along the way, asked us what works and what doesn't, and have managed to meet all of their deadlines (most ahead of schedule!) along the way. Many professionals on other forums and mailing lists didn't even think they'd GET here, letalone in the time frame they anticipated. So for all of these achievements, for never once coming up short, and for delivering to NAB working cameras of the vision they had just a fleeting year earlier, they've shown us that they CAN do what they say they're going to do and there's no reason we shouldn't trust them when they give us a release date. Of course, as always, "everything is subject to change - count on it."

The point of this long-winded post is that while you're right - a lot of people have invested themselves into RED ("emotionally" if you want to call it that; I'd say "passionately" is a better word choice), they've never given us a reason to doubt it or think otherwise. They've defied all odds up until this point, so why not put some faith in their project? Some of us did that way back at last year's NAB; others have waited until they could see it in person. Perhaps you would rather hold off until the barcodes are on the boxes and you can choose the overnight shipping option on the website. But given all of the data they've shown us so far, given their unbelievable track record and willingness to listen, and given their fantastic display of working models at NAB, I don't think it's fair to state that RED is an "intangible" dream that exists "soley in the mind."

Perhaps you're thinking of the Kinetta?

[Billy McCannon]

Hi Neutordancer,

Hard to understand your post in the light of the fact that you’ve already started to purchase accessories. In circumstances where it might be nieve to get emotionally involved with an "intangible construct" it's altogether ridicules to buy tangible accessories for an "intangible construct".


Hi All,

I am 285 in the que. I purchased a used Cooke 18-100 T3 to go with it.

You're winding us up

[number6]

WHAT!! THE CAMERA HAS BEEN DELAYED? Oh well, I ordered mine sometime in late April and have no idea when I was supposed to get it anyway. I've learned to live with uncertainty. It's not so bad.

[Steve Gibby]

Excellent post Haakon...IMO you nailed it.

[CJ Roy]

I think it's simple. Every customer wants to know the status of their order, no matter the industry.

[Pete Horvath]

Here's an idea for the red team: Why not post the ETAs of cameras (or groups of camera serial numbers) somewhere on their website. Lets put that interweb to use. :whistling:

Cheers,
Pete

[Rick Darge]

The status is YOU WAIT..otherwise get a refund and buy something else.. Nobody is holding you to this camera.. Red, I echo other users when I say take as lonnnnnnnnnnngggg as you need... In the meantime I will continue using the tools I have and renting what I don't have.. Peeps, this isn't the Roesetta Stone

[nathanail nathanailoglou]

Guys.....Guys

I can understand that you can no longer wait for the delivery of your RED camera.......

In that case I am offered -since I have the time and the will to wait for a finished camera that will dominate the system - to buy your reservation for the ammount you spend.

Anybody?


I only need one camera for a start.......

[TimothyD]

Guys.....Guys

I can understand that you can no longer wait for the delivery of your RED camera.......

In that case I am offered -since I have the time and the will to wait for a finished camera that will dominate the system - to buy your reservation for the ammount you spend.

Anybody?


I only need one camera for a start.......

Pretty sure that is not allowed, reservations are non-transferrable...

[Mark L. Pederson]

I vote to close this thread down. IMHO It's getting a bit tired. It's all been said ... over and over.

[RED-Tank]

I vote to close this thread down. IMHO It's getting a bit tired. It's all been said ... over and over.

I am second to this... I am overloaded.

[nathanail nathanailoglou]

Pretty sure that is not allowed, reservations are non-transferrable...

Of course it's not.....

But they must stop complaining like children when they can't have their toy.

It's a professional tool we are talking about ......

[Jarred Land]

I am second to this... I am overloaded.

lol.. your wish is my command.