Don't forget... [Archive]

Steve Gibby

12-22-2008, 08:09 AM

...we mount a lot of stuff on these cameras. The modular design is totally awesome... but there won't be a module for everything.

How do the rest of our accessories fit into the Epic equation?

I'm assuming by using the words "we" and "our" you're referring to your strictly cine-style, large crew, union setups for work with RED One as pictured.

As you know, RED One has been, is now, and will continue to be used extensively in non-hardlined EFP production, usually with small, mobile, sight focusing crews using setups which almost always feature a lot less cables and attachments than you have pictured - and more often than not, no matte box or follow focus. In terms of sheer volume of productions worldwide each year, non-hardlined EFP dwarfs all other styles and sub-styles of production, and our style of production is generally much more streamlined than cine style.

Being smaller and more modular than RED One, IMO Epic will be used even more broadly in non-hardlined EFP production than RED One is. Then comes the DSMC concept also. The non-hardlined EFP shooters tend to be the convergence shooters who will maximize the breadth of production techniques that the DSMC cameras enable. On most non-hardlined EFP projects the small, non-union crews will also use Epic (and Scarlet) in the DSMC mode, getting production stills on location.

When you show pics like those, and use words like "we" and "our" in referring to them and the ergo/connector/setup needs of Epic (and Scarlet), I think it is important for RED User members, and RED Team to understand that you aren't speaking for the overall needs of all of us, but rather your own cine-style, union, large crew needs.

With the millions of ways to set up an Epic and Scarlet, and the extremely broad range of styles of production, genres and sub-genres the cameras will be used in, modularity and flexibility in exterior cable and accessory option are not a luxury, but rather a necessity.

I'll be buying several Epic and Scarlet cameras - and I fully expect to setup them quickly and easily for the non-hardlined EFP and hybrid cine-EFP style work me and my crews do - and also for shooting digital stills, and for the occasional pure cine-style work we do.

Epic and Scarlet are convergence cameras, and as such, workers in one style will have the flexibility to set them up for their workflow, but need to be sensitive to the needs of those of use who are non-union, and will use them in all the styles that the cameras enable, and that RED intended them to be used in.

Matt Uhry

12-22-2008, 08:18 AM

Hi Stewart,

Could actually be worse, only 1 out of 5 of those shots has any audio hooked up ! and only 2 out of 5 have electronic lens controls in evidence. There is a reason AC's get so fussy about where connectors are and the angle they rest at.

The render that Red posted in late august, where the connectors pointed 45deg. towards the rear looked good any chance of getting back to that, still in a module?.

Also make the audio component a distinct module from picture related stuff. Let a reputable digital audio company make it. Sound guys will NEVER be happy with anything Red makes, regardless of how good it actually is. Built in audio to them is like a fixed lens to a D.P.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Steve Gibby

12-22-2008, 08:27 AM

Sound guys will NEVER be happy with anything Red makes, regardless of how good it actually is. Built in audio to them is like a fixed lens to a D.P.

Matt Uhry

My RED cameras have received the sound board upgrade - and it seriously rocks. My sound guys, and myself when I also do sound work when using my cameras, are all now very happy with the in-camera sound capabilities of RED One.

As I posted in my last post on this thread, RED One, Epic, and Scarlet were all planned by RED and designed to be setup for use in cine-style (where audio is usually off-camera), non-hardlined EFP style (where audio is frequently in-camera), and stills mode (obviously without audio).

If you don't need the in-camera audio in your workflow, fine, don't use it. But for those of us who regularly use the in-camera audio capabilities of RED One (and Epic and Scarlet to come), the capability needs to be there.

BTW - many of us multi-genre and multi-style DPs with open minds and broad skill sets regularly get excellent images with fixed lens cameras and will do so when it makes sense with the Scarlet fixed lens version :-)

Nick Gardner

12-22-2008, 08:32 AM

Dylan Macleod, CSC

12-22-2008, 08:43 AM

Thanks... I think.

The only cable missing from our renders is the LCD (or BombEVF) cable to make the camera operate. Some will use it this way. Others will create a "spaghetti train". Since we can't anticipate everything someone will plug into the camera, it doesn't make much sense to throw a bunch of random cables in our renders... and screw up the "elegance". :-)

If it helps you... all modules (other than displays) have internal connections and don't need cables to "talk to the Brain".

Jim

This is great news!

Steve Gibby

12-22-2008, 08:45 AM

Hey Gibby,

What you say is true, however, there are those of us who do use our cameras with all that gack on them, and Epic seems to be targeting that market, so I don't really get your point. Sure you can use a camera stripped down, but shouldn't you make it compatible with standard production protocol?

I also think that there are going to be a lot more epics shooting spots and episodic, than NGT specials and surf videos.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong,

Nick

Actually RED has targeted Epic at the cine, EFP, and digital still market, depending on how you accessorize the camera. That's why it is so modular and flexible in setup options.

Yes, the option to make Epic compatible with standard protocol needs to be there - just as the quick options to re-accessorize the camera for EFP or stills work needs to be there - otherwise it is a less flexible camera system.

I disagree that numerically there will be a lot more Epics shooting spots and episodics than non-hardlined EFP productions. Features and spots get a lot of publicity, but the overall EFP market dwarfs the features and spots market in terms of number of productions done each year.

Epic and Scarlet are convergence cameras. It shouldn't offend the ego of straight cine-style workers that EFP and stills people are also using those cameras. There no need to stake out Epic as a "my workflow" camera - it will be and should be a "whatever workflow I need" camera.

That "NGT specials and surf videos" comment about my work was uninformed and uncalled for. I work in a broad range of EFP and cine genres and sub-genres of production for 14 different broadcast and cable networks. You can read my bio on my the Redconnector link in my signature block.

Nick Gardner

12-22-2008, 09:09 AM

Hi Gibby,

No offense intended by the NGT/surf video comment. Honestly, I have no idea what you do. I have shot a bunch of National Geographic Television Specials, and used that as an example of a job I would not want an epic on, and figured surf/skate/snowboard videos was another end of the spectrum that would want a more straightforward camera that's all.

I just think Epic is the wrong choice for a one man band Doc shoot, and it will most likely be gunning for the high end market. I see Epic targeting Jobs with crews, not stuff that used to be a guy with a varicam and a sound guy if he was lucky.

Sure you can window the sensor, use eng lenses etc, but at that point why are you using the camera in the first place?

On the other hand, I just finished a Doc shoot in the Middle East with the Red, 35mm lenses and the crew was Me, 1st AC, and sound guy, so go figure......

Jim Perry, Jr.

12-22-2008, 09:54 AM

Hey Brook, that's pretty impressive.
Care to share a list of what's hooked up there?

yeah, brook - please share :)

Sanjin Jukic

12-22-2008, 09:56 AM

Nick Gardner

12-22-2008, 10:13 AM

Lebanon ;-)

Steve Gibby

12-22-2008, 10:22 AM

Nick,

For non-hardlined EFP production - edited in postproductions for television, business, etc. - RED One has been used widely - and I fully expect Epic to be used even more widely due to its smaller size and modularity. Additionally, the post workflow are seriously improving as RED puts a lot of attention to that.

I've owned multiple RED One cameras and extensively used them for 16 months now - and about 85% of that use has been non-hardlined EFP production and/or hybrid EFP-cine style production. I think a misconception among straight cine style shooters is that EFP production is only done in 2k using B4 2/3" HD zooms. With RED One that is far from accurate. In all of my crew's non-hardlined production with RED One we have only used B4 2/3" HD zooms on a few productions, with the giant portion of the productions we've done being what I've termed "hybrid EFP/cine" production. – using cine and 35mm stills lenses, a minimum of accessories, sight focusing, and using EFP camera techniques.

In a non-union environment, with open minded crew, hybrid production is a reality. In this hybrid approach we're analyzing each production closely, then matching the lenses, accessories, and field production needs to that production. Most times this entails a mixed use of EFP, 35mm stills, and cine lenses, accessories, and shooting styles - a mix/match situation.

For example, when extreme mobility is needed, heavy and bulky accessories (matte box, FF, etc.) are skipped, and we opt to sight focus using lighter 35mm stills lenses. If we get to a more stationary location we may add the MB and FF back in, either with 35mm stills lenses or more often with cine lenses. Myself and my crewmembers switch all day long between camera techniques that are used in all three imaging disciplines: cine, EFP, and stills. 95% 0f our focusing with RED One has been sight focusing (no A/C on the crews), originally using 2:1 image magnification, then later (and much easier) using 1:1 image magnification. We occasionally do straight cine setups and traditional focusing. It just depends on the needs of the production, or a portion thereof. This kind of hybrid EFP/cine production requires broad skill sets and open minds. You'll never see it on union sets or on certain types of large productions. It is on non-union, medium to small crew situations, with open minded, broad skill set crews that you will find it. The mantra is "Maximize technology - while minimizing expense".

For audio we were opting to use a small line mixer on the cameras, but with the new audio upgrades we can go directly to the cameras, with very good results.

For mobile lighting when needed we use small lights (Litepanels) on stands and on camera, and Flexfills as necessary.

Don't assume that the end result is un-cinematic. Just the opposite, we stress getting cinematic footage whenever time and budget will allow - and when it is the best choice for a particular production or portion thereof.

Brook and Matt are friends of mine and I respect their professional opinions. That said, we don't always agree on camera usage, ergonomics, etc., and that's fine. I invited both of them to be members of our L.A. RED Test team a year ago because of that - they know their stuff and could bring good skills and diversity to the team. Last year I also supplied one of my RED cameras and worked on the crew with Matt on you guessed it – some commercial spots.

I did the first published interview with Jim Jannard about RED One (Studio Monthly, 3/06), in which Jim affirmed the added EFP use for RED One. Stuart English has reiterated RED One's EFP usage multiple times on this board since then. The DSMC philosophy behind Epic and Scarlet is the next incarnation of modularity, scalability, and flexibility of usage for RED cameras. Accessorize and lens them for each particular production you're doing, and then change your techniques to maximize your work on that project, or portion of it.

Me and my crews have found it quite easy to do non-hardlined EFP production with RED One - and look forward to it being even easier with the DSMC concept cameras. To each their own with these cameras - and that is the beauty of their design.

Of all the converging industries IMO it is the cine-style people who are having the hardest time wrapping their heads around the concept of convergence and broad utility. Some of that is ego for them supposedly being at the top of the food chain, but IMO it also centers on union tendency to compartmentalize job descriptions, the byproduct of which is workers with narrow skill sets that run vertical rather than horizontal. In the non-union environment crews tend to broaden skill sets and learn to be able to work in a wide range of job classifications. I've been a member of two unions in this industry, and it taught me that I wanted to center my career on non-union work, so I could learn to be everything from a grip/production assistant, and each job up to executive producer - and I've done that. That way I could be free to maximize technology and grow professionally. I hear the "jack of all trades, master of none" analogy retorted sometimes, but I've worked hard for 3 decades to be a "jack of all trades, and a master of most of them". Its a lot of constant work, but it can be done - in a non-union environment that is.

The opposite of a Jack of all Trades" is too often a specialist. The definition of a specialist is often "someone who learns more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing!"

The concepts behind RED One, Epic, and Scarlet can fit perfectly into either the union environment or the non-union environment, depending on your needs. It’s the best of all worlds for everyone.

If RED wants to sell camera systems, and I'm assuming they don't want to be a non-profit organization, then the tip of the sales iceberg is the pure cine-style production industry - while the other nine tenths of the potential sales berg that is lurking beneath the water is the combined EFP and digital stills industries. Thus RED’s stress on the extreme modularity, scalability, and resultant flexibility of the DSMC line of camera systems. The more fiscally strong RED is, the better for all of RED camera owners and users. That way they can continue to serve our needs looking forward.

We're all family here. Nobody should take offense at my comments. I work in all three industries RED is marketing to: cine-style, EFP style, and digital stills. I applaud RED for their advances and concepts - and for listening to everyone while the cameras are in development.

Peace…good shooting to everyone...

Jannard

12-22-2008, 11:21 AM

This is an EPIC S35 Brain in shoulder config. I guess the goal is that you can make these guys just about anything you want and need. We assume that just about everyone will have a different opinion as to how they should be configured.

Jim

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1229999768.jpg

Same Brain in a different configuration (old battery box).

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1230031248.jpg

Scott Webster

12-22-2008, 11:22 AM

Hey Brook, that's pretty impressive.

Care to share a list of what's hooked up there?

It's all common production accessories.

CineTape (http://www.btinternet.com/~gordon.segrove/cinetape.html)
Preston MDR (http://www.prestoncinema.com/products_FI%2BZ.html)
AJA Downconverter (http://www.aja.com/html/products_converters_HD10MD3.html)
SD Video Transmitter (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/431472-REG/Transvideo_904TS011_95TITANSET_Titan_Wireless_Tran smitter.html)
Denecke Timecode box (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406893-REG/Denecke_SB_T_SB_T_Time_Code_Generator.html#feature s) (or similar)

The Keslow box looks like a power splitter.
You can usually find a radio mic for guide track.

To put it in perspective, check out Charles Paperts F35 handheld rig at dvinfo (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachments/digital-cinema-general-discussion/10090d1229666876-sony-f35-first-experience-img_0756.jpg) :)

JanneJansson

12-22-2008, 11:23 AM

cool, batt shiny too now :)

Steve Gibby

12-22-2008, 12:52 PM

Very cool renders Jim. Thanks for those...

My crews will be using an Epic configuration like you have in the top render for about 90% of our shoulder held needs - in hybrid EFP/cine style.

The second configuration render is more of a setup for how my crews will work when we're on tripod and/or shooting in a more cine style.

The great thing is that we can shoot quick stills with either of those configurations if needed, or if we're changing to a lot of dedicated stills work, just quickly strip down the camera and re-accessorize and re-lens (if wanted/needed) the camera for the stills work.

I'm definitely liking the modularity and flexibility of the new Epic and Scarlet designs - just accessorize and lens the cameras for what you need for each production or portion thereof.

This is an EPIC S35 Brain in shoulder config. I guess the goal is that you can make these guys just about anything you want and need. We assume that just about everyone will have a different opinion as to how they should be configured.

Jim

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1229999768.jpg

Same Brain in a different configuration (old battery box).

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1230031248.jpg

Nigel Stanford

12-22-2008, 01:15 PM

Hi Stewart,
Also make the audio component a distinct module from picture related stuff. Let a reputable digital audio company make it. Sound guys will NEVER be happy with anything Red makes, regardless of how good it actually is. Built in audio to them is like a fixed lens to a D.P.
www.mattuhry.com

Can we get digital audio inputs? Then the sound dept guy can run a cable to the camera, but remains in control of the gain and has their own a/d converters. As you say, they'll never be happy with converters on the camera. It doesn't matter who makes them, they won't want to give up any kind of control.

The ideal audio module would have four XLR's, switchable to analog or digital.

Or alternativly 2 analog and 2 digital. I'd be happy with just the four digital.

Someone mentioned a MADI input but that's just descending into madness :)

Ariana

12-22-2008, 01:20 PM

It's all common production accessories.

CineTape (http://www.btinternet.com/~gordon.segrove/cinetape.html)
Preston MDR (http://www.prestoncinema.com/products_FI%2BZ.html)
AJA Downconverter (http://www.aja.com/html/products_converters_HD10MD3.html)
SD Video Transmitter (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/431472-REG/Transvideo_904TS011_95TITANSET_Titan_Wireless_Tran smitter.html)
Denecke Timecode box (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406893-REG/Denecke_SB_T_SB_T_Time_Code_Generator.html#feature s) (or similar)

The Keslow box looks like a power splitter.
You can usually find a radio mic for guide track.

To put it in perspective, check out Charles Paperts F35 handheld rig at dvinfo (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachments/digital-cinema-general-discussion/10090d1229666876-sony-f35-first-experience-img_0756.jpg) :)

Some thoughts:
The Preston MDR is way bigger than it really should be. People use Preston's because they already own them and trust them. I can't possibly see how Red can or should design around a Preston. It just is what it is.

Downconverter/SD transmitter is rapidly going to become archaic. Again, I would like to NOT see Red design around something that will be replaced soon by an HD digital transmitter. Again, it won't be long before those are small.

Timecode box: none of the shows I've been on use the timecode box on the camera all the time. We jam at the beginning of the day and at lunch.

If you want Cinetape, MDR, TC box on the camera, there's no way you're not going to have tons of cables. Red can't do anything about the cables from the MDR to lens motors, etc.

Everyone puts these boxes in different places for different configs. I can't possibly see how one can design that into a product while making some people happy and others very unhappy. That's what rails and mounting holes are for.

If anything, we should pressure Preston, Cinetape, AJA, Ambient, and Deneke to buld smaller, better products.

It's clear that Red is selling these cameras at lower price because it's targeted at a larger market. If they focus on a smaller market even for Epic, then inevitably the volume goes down and the price will go up. Epic is ridiculously cheap for what it is. Don't ask to make it twice as expensive because you can't see the big picture!

Brook Willard

12-22-2008, 01:33 PM

I'm assuming by using the words "we" and "our" you're referring to your strictly cine-style, large crew, union setups for work with RED One as pictured.

When you show pics like those, and use words like "we" and "our" in referring to them and the ergo/connector/setup needs of Epic (and Scarlet), I think it is important for RED User members, and RED Team to understand that you aren't speaking for the overall needs of all of us, but rather your own cine-style, union, large crew needs.

Yes Gibby, I am referring to my strictly cine-style, large crew, union setups.

Hey Brook, that's pretty impressive.

Care to share a list of what's hooked up there?

You got it:

Non-RED onboard batteries.
Non-RED block batteries.
XLR to MC8 adapters.
Preston MDR plus motors.
AJA Downconverter.
Ambient Lockit Box.
Denecke SB-T.
CineTape horn & display.
Lens Light.
Modulus Transmitter.
CanaTrans Transmitter.
MicroForce controller.

Because of the nonstandard nature of the connectors on the RED ONE, those are all adapted with the following accessories:

Fisher 3-pin breakout boxes.
RED 4-pin to Fisher 3-pin adapters.
Mini-XLR to XLR adapters.
Mini-BNC to BNC breakout boxes.
Outboard voltage meters.
Non-RED rod adapters, cheese plates, handles and brackets.

Since we can't anticipate everything someone will plug into the camera, it doesn't make much sense to throw a bunch of random cables in our renders... and screw up the "elegance". :-)

To some extent, however, you can make those predictions. If there is no SD output on the camera, people will mount a downconverter. If there are no unregulated 3-pin Fisher power outputs, people will mount Fisher [or P-tap] breakout boxes. If the camera can't read standard voltage, people will mount voltage meters or backup batteries. If the camera's timecode functions like the RED ONE's does, people will mount a timecode generator.

The Epic has come a long way with real BNC connectors, a faster boot time, etc... and I'm really excited about it. But a lot of those accessories are band-aids to make the RED ONE interface with decades worth of standard accessories that aren't going away anytime soon.

Remember that angled breakout box you guys designed for the older Epic body? That angled all the ports properly? Don't forget about that one! :)

Even without all of that, you can always anticipate that people will need to mount things like a Preston MDR, lens light, Modulus/Canatrans/HDtrans, CineTape, etc. They're all standard accessories that get used every day in the cinema crowd... and we'll use them on the Epic in the same way that we use them on the RED ONE and film cameras.

Now's the time to start thinking about ways to power and mount these boxes.

The module idea you guys are using is fantastic... but consider taking it a step further. You're making some awesome modules so far... but many people will still use the same modules [battery module, port module] for 90% of their work. Those people won't all do the same kind of work, however. Why not get more specialized with the modules?

Make a Steve Gibby ENG/EFP module. Make a Brook Willard Cinema module. Make a Matt Uhry get-the-sound-department-away-from-me module. Same camera... different accessory.

I'm all about using this camera in different fields... that's part of the beauty of it. With specialized modules, the "jack of all trades, master of none" fears can disappear.

I really urge you to consider a specialized "Cinema Module" that covers a lot of these points. Let me know if you want me to open up that can of worms... I've got tons of ideas and drawings to share.

Dylan Macleod, CSC

12-22-2008, 01:54 PM

Jeff Kilgroe

12-22-2008, 02:34 PM

Current RED Drives will obviously need a cable. So will any battery plates. If you go with the configuration that has the battery module holding 2 or 3 of the RED 12V blocks, then the module connects directly, so no extra cable. The media modules like the the dual CF module or the RED MAG module obviously don't need cables.

Then again... You will need cables from the brain to any module or bank of modules located "off camera".

Brook is right that we shouldn't forget that many of us will have lots of crap stacked onto or connected to these cameras. But that goes for any camera. As for Brook's example pics above, especially the middle of 5 pictures, a few minutes of good cable management would help that a lot. Yes there's a lot of crap on those camera... No, it doesn't need to look like that. Damn...

JanneJansson

12-22-2008, 02:51 PM

Remember that angled breakout box you guys designed for the older Epic body? That angled all the ports properly? Don't forget about that one! :)

Yes that design was very good, and I think that will work best so far for cine setups.

Sanjin Jukic

12-22-2008, 02:52 PM

RED could offer rendering(s) with a man figure in handheld pose that we could see better what is going on with ergonomics.

I'm not good in 3D and at the below picture is one example that's maybe is not 100% accurate but give you an idea how could be made.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/MacDaddy3D1_2.jpg

David J Bernstein

12-22-2008, 02:56 PM

There's that RED matte box again! Is it ever going to be reality? Or must we just drool over our laptops?

Stuart English

12-22-2008, 03:11 PM

Non-RED onboard batteries.
Non-RED block batteries.
XLR to MC8 adapters.
Preston MDR plus motors.
AJA Downconverter.
Ambient Lockit Box.
Denecke SB-T.
CineTape horn & display.
Lens Light.
Modulus Transmitter.
CanaTrans Transmitter.
MicroForce controller.

Thank you for the information Brook.

Just be careful throwing around the "band aid" comments though - it doesn't help the conversation along...

Pawel Achtel

12-22-2008, 03:30 PM

...we mount a lot of stuff on these cameras. The modular design is totally awesome... but there won't be a module for everything.

Thanks Brook for pictures of those beautiful Christmas decorations. :w00t:

Brook Willard

12-22-2008, 03:59 PM

Agh, point taken, I didn't mean to offend with my rather poor choice of words... sorry about that. I meant it not so much as a shot against the camera's design as a star on the point that people will still need to use their standards-based accessories... even if those standards aren't built into the camera.

So band-aid is definitely the wrong word from a conversational perspective [and my apologies for the way it came across]... but from a functional perspective that's exactly what it is. It's adapting a nonstandard connector to a standard one... "fixing" something that was "broken". It's adapting a "film cable" to "that RED port". It's "fixing" the "broken" timecode functionality. It's adding "real" battery meters instead of "the RED one". It's bypassing the onboard power output so the 1.5A breaker doesn't trip and kill the camera when I have an older sticky zoom on with an analog motor.

I don't talk like that - I wouldn't go around spewing venom about the cameras - but that's what I hear when I'm working with camera assistants. It's rarely an "ok, I'll just buy a new FIZ cable"... usually more of a "why didn't they just use standard cables?". :)

Breakout boxes, downconverters, adapter cables and voltage meters all work just fine... but it'd be infinitely nicer if these functions were built into a specific module.

The shot of Charles's F35 is a perfect example of what people have to go through to make digital cameras function in a cinema environment. They just aren't designed by cinema people. You guys have really done a very good job all things considered - definitely better than most. Considering the RED ONE was your first try, it's pretty damned amazing. But I love to strive for perfection. It's not like you're the only offender... it's just that you're the only one listening. :)

I've seen so many ACs try to jam a 3-pin Fisher into the 4-pin LEMO on the back of the camera, only to look into the plugs, mutter something I won't repeat here and call for a prep tech.

I absolutely understand that my own personal design needs [which are essentially a combination of the design requests of dozens of camera assistants in LA] aren't for everybody. By the same token, I'm sure Steve has some design points he'd love to see that would send shivers down my spine. That's why I'm so excited about this module idea.

If there was a real "Cinema Module" that was designed from the ground up to function as though it were a film camera on steroids... oh man. It would be huge. It wouldn't be for everybody... but it would be at every film-style rental house and every camera assistant would just love you guys for it.

Email me for thoughts. :)

David Mullen ASC

12-22-2008, 04:10 PM

You'd think that with so many shows sticking a downconverter, Modulus transmitter, Cinetape, Lockit box, etc. that some of these elements would be more commonly designed to work together rather than be velcro'd onto cameras haphazardly. The problem isn't the RED design approach either because most 35mm movie cameras resemble Frankenstein's monster by the time everyone is done sticking their add-ons...

Of course, I look forward to the day when downconversions to SD would be unnecessary on a movie set and every department, the sound cart, video village, Steadicam, etc. would be watching on HD monitors, big & small. But it would have to be easily transmitted when necessary.

Seems like the function of a Lockit box should start being part of a basic camera's design.

Evin Grant

12-22-2008, 04:21 PM

With Epic you have a chance to really focus the modules to their specific uses. A cinema module would ideally fit behind the current IO module and offer SD downconversion and a TC Word clock capable of dirf-less jamming to an external source, basically an Ambient or Dencke lockit box built in. This would eliminate two of Brook's add on boxes and at least six cables. Also some three pin Lemo connectors with unregulated power for the MDR, Microforce and Cineteape would be swell. You already have the full size XLRs rocking so it wouldn't take much more to get you there. Also this Cine module doesn't have to be indy cheap. Both the Downconverter and Lockit box cost $1000 each so it would stand to reason that this module would be more than those two combined. This is one area where the modular design makes enormous sense.

Brook Willard

12-22-2008, 04:33 PM

Not 3-pin LEMO, 3-pin Fisher. Very different... :)

I'd like to have the HD-SDI, composite and audio ports integrated into the Cinema Module... along with a bunch of other things as well. Evin's on the right track with the downconverter and lockit box, however.

It's not just about the ports on the box, it's also about the shape of the box, where the ports point, what ports are guarded by, etc.

If you guys became friends with Preston, you could even have a Cinema Module with a built-in MDR a la how Arri builds the LCS into certain camera bodies.

Unrelated to the Cinema Module, I think it'd be awesome to either split the Port Module in half [one for audio, one for HD-SDI] or offer two additional but separate units that do the same thing.

The wheels are spinning over here.

Joel Kaye

12-22-2008, 04:34 PM

Seems like the function of a Lockit box should start being part of a basic camera's design.

Yeah, that might be an opportunity for RED to add some more value relatively easily. Maybe even wireless sync between cameras built in... syncing back to a master timecode slate RED could make and sell. Slick.

Also, I like the idea of XLR and BNC connectors pointing down at 45 or 90 degrees. The Digital audio input idea is good too. Why not just knock it out of the park when it comes to audio this time. External gain controls and the ability to send one audio input to multiple tracks with different gain settings would be nice too. Typical ENG feature, but not on RED so far.

Anyway, the whole modular thing does allow RED to get into any accessory business they want to. It's a very cool design.

Evin Grant

12-22-2008, 04:44 PM

Not 3-pin LEMO, 3-pin Fisher. Very different... :)

Duhh,:wacko: Fisher, sorry I'm typing too fast.

Brook Willard

12-22-2008, 04:46 PM

I'm reminded again of Matt Uhry's audio idea from a few months ago. His idea was to have a big port on the camera designed by Location Sound, Coffey or Sound Devices. Let them design the specs and just build a port. Ship a thousand connectors to all of the companies before the cameras ship. That way everybody could build their own cables, transmitters, etc... without needing to take up real estate on the camera. Some units could have pots built in, some could have mini XLRs, some could have full XLRs, some would just have timecode, etc.

But now - with the module idea - why not call up those companies [which would instantly give people faith in the audio quality of the products] and co-design a bunch of modules? A mini-XLR module, a full-sized XLR module with pots and phantom power, a digital audio module, a transmitter/receiver module [!!!!!], a Denecke-designed timecode module, etc.

The possibilities are endless and it'd keep the sound guys out of our hair when we don't want them around. Those sound guys and their sound ways will be the death of us!

But - at the same time - those who run in the ENG/EFP world could just buy a particular module and strap a microphone to the camera. Problem: solved.

Epic body, Cinema Module with MDR and composite-out, Denecke Timecode Module, Audio Transceiver Module, Battery Module... and some storage on the back.

I'll take three. :)

Kenn Michael

12-22-2008, 04:46 PM

I'm REALLY liking this idea of a Cinema module (along with other specialty modules for different shooting disciplines).

Sven Seynaeve

12-22-2008, 04:53 PM

It would be really great that 3rd parties or Red themselves built the components that we need mostly on this kind of shoots.

TC receiver, transmitter in a module, different kind of audio modules, maby one with a MADI i/o connector (giving us the feature transporting 64ch i / o at once, even if we need much less, so audio could be recorded with good preamps, split up with a madi bridge and then sent over wherever where it's needed.
, efp broadcast module, even the ability to have onboard audio receivers built into the body would be really nice and if Red wants to coörperate with 3rd parties this could be easily done and everybody could get a piece of the pie.

Deanan

12-22-2008, 04:56 PM

If you guys became friends with Preston, you could even have a Cinema Module with a built-in MDR a la how Arri builds the LCS into certain camera bodies.

Seriously, how many 1st's are going to buy an EPIC specific Preston MDR. Especially at the low quantities that Preston needs to make them, the cost would be way more than a Scarlet brain. Then factor in that Preston does not dominate the market globally.

Most of these accessories are piled on outside the camera because that separates the cost from a particular camera model/brand. Putting them into a camera system doesn't always make sense.

Putting analog SD downconversion on 5k camera is really not solving a problem or motivating the industry to solve the problem properly. There is a huge motivation for 3rd parties to provide wireless HD now and not just because of Red. There will many more solutions coming out before Epic does.

jaadgy akanni

12-22-2008, 05:10 PM

I get tired of the LA feature guys thinking the world works like they do. We DONT.

We also don't want $200k cameras because the cameras were designed for a myopic segment of the image making population.

I agree. And another annoying things is that underlying message I can read between the lines, saying "RED, be more like ARRI and them...design this camera so that we can approach its shortcomings in exactly the same way we approach the shortcomings of Arri and them"
The day that happens, is the day I lose respect for Jim.

Evin Grant

12-22-2008, 05:11 PM

This is not mostly feature work, it's commercial, music video, episodic TV, high budget web/new media. Basically anything that would have shot on an F900 or 35mm two years ago. All these add on gadgets really add up to one thing....

....Time.

The easier to use and more reliable a system is the faster you can change setups and the more content you can produce in a given shooting day. That is exactly why the Red One is dominating production in LA right now. But we think Epic can do even better and this is the place to let that be known. In the end this is not about snobby LA types it's about speed and that equals money. It just so happens that the most money is spent here and that means we need the most amount of speed and the highest level of functionality.

Bruce Allen

12-22-2008, 05:40 PM

Eliminating the lockit box seems like the lowest hanging fruit... and something everyone could probably agree on.

If RED either got timecode up to lockit box level (persistent for a whole day through battery changes etc), or added a little module with "timecode by Ambient" (or Denecke) printed on the side of it (like my Sound Devices recorder does), I'm sure the pros would pay for it.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Stuart English

12-22-2008, 05:40 PM

So band-aid is definitely the wrong word from a conversational perspective [and my apologies for the way it came across]... but from a functional perspective that's exactly what it is. It's adapting a nonstandard connector to a standard one... "fixing" something that was "broken". It's adapting a "film cable" to "that RED port". It's "fixing" the "broken" timecode functionality. It's adding "real" battery meters instead of "the RED one". It's bypassing the onboard power output so the 1.5A breaker doesn't trip and kill the camera when I have an older sticky zoom on with an analog motor.

Brook, the above reminds me of conversations I've had with my wife Tina, who is Dutch.

Every now and again I wonder why she just doesn't SPEAK ENGLISH! ...... well her answer is, why haven't YOU learned to speak any DUTCH!

Maybe the more appropriate phrase you might be looking for is "adapt" or "translate"

Vriendelijke groeten,

Sven Seynaeve

12-22-2008, 05:41 PM

You all might be right that it's way cheaper to use velcro and pick the items we prefer.

But as with the r1 we've seen some dramatic changes over time due to suggestions and ideas and feedback from some real professionals, it couldn't do any harm if Red digged deeper into this subject and sees what could be a real win-win situation to push the design into the limits...

My strongest wish is mostly regarding the audio , that I'd like to see the Madi option jump in because it would reduce cabling and it's stronger then adat.
or otherwise the aes done on multicable with some breakoutbox. but also give us the option to put receivers and analog signals onto the camera itself.

I suppose it might be good to look at some good wireless audio manufacturers and see what's possible to have it onboard and implemented into the body or make some inbetween modular piece, where we could let it fit it, that we're not forced to put it on the side.

Brook Willard

12-22-2008, 05:46 PM

Seriously, how many 1st's are going to buy an EPIC specific Preston MDR.

Nobody, that was more of a pipe dream. Just rattling off idea after idea and I got too excited. :)

You're also right that having all those companies build components is unreasonable to coordinate. I think the point I was trying to make is still there, though... even if they don't build them, having a few additional specific modules would be great for their separate markets and functions.

This thread started as a "don't forget to give us places to bolt stuff!" idea and has turned into a "holy crap, let's make some really cool accessories!" braindump. Most of the ideas I've rattled off are unreasonable... but I think a few [namely the Cinema Module] could be pretty awesome...

I get tired of the LA feature guys thinking the world works like they do. We DONT.

We also don't want $200k cameras because the cameras were designed for a myopic segment of the image making population.

Your point is perfectly taken - that's why I think that it should be a module/accessory idea for the fairly limited cinema crowd instead of a complete body reworking. I'm more talking about new accessories here... not redesign of the camera. The body is fantastic as it stands.

So you can have the camera exactly as you want it... and we can have it how we want it! That way everybody wins. That's why this modularity idea RED is using has so much potential.

Absolutely brilliant naiveté!
What standard?
Before Red came along, I already had a separate case dedicated to special cables adapting from this or that camera.

Exactly! That's why I was using quotes. There is no "standard" - that's why every FIZ you rent has about 9 power cables. That said, there are some power connectors that are more common than others. Arri uses certain connectors, Panavision uses certain connectors, etc. The 1.5A RED 4-pin LEMO is often not enough to run the MDR. I've just found that almost every MDR or CineTape or MicroForce will come out of the box with [among other things] a 3-pin Fisher connector [usually 11-17v]. Furthermore, just about every RED rental house in town has added a 3-pin Fisher breakout box to their cameras [while some have built pigtails from 4-pin LEMO to 3-pin Fisher and others have relied on P-tap breakout boxes].

Don't let Brook get you down Carsten -- He is not a feature guy in LA or beyond - he is just a punk kid that like's to point out how bad he thinks the red one camera is - He does not even own a camera - I cannot believe he made the point to correct his boss Evin and make Evin look like a dummy with the 3 pin correction in public just so Brook could look smarter.

I own a Preston package myself - and i am very happy to Rent that out to productions - I selfishly advise directly against what Brook is suggesting.

Lara, I don't believe we've ever worked together - I find it interesting that you take these shots against me. This is now the second time you've decided to call me out and personally attack me for my opinions... in 30 posts you've ever made.

You seem to think that you know a lot about me. Let's clarify a bit. Evin is not currently and has never been my boss. My correction on his Lemo vs. Fisher comment was just to prevent confusion. You are also very very mistaken about my experience and current projects.

So it is my desire for RED to make an additional accessory that is designed to interface with common cinema accessories. It would not detract from any other accessories... and it would not change the camera as we know it. I'm not completely sure how that offends you and your Preston, but I'll leave it at that.

Brook, the above reminds me of conversations I've had with my wife Tina, who is Dutch.

Every now and again I wonder why she just doesn't SPEAK ENGLISH! ...... well her answer is, why haven't YOU learned to speak any DUTCH!

Maybe the more appropriate phrase you might be looking for is "adapt" or "translate"

Vriendelijke groeten,

Heheh, good point. I know that the way I write can sometimes be misconstrued as offensive or having subtext when I mean none. I'll try to phrase things in a way that comes across a little more nicely next time. But don't worry... I never mean offense when I write things like that. I just come across as harsh on paper. :innocent:

And in that particular quote of mine, the words I put in quotations aren't my own... they're just what I hear out of camera assistants' mouths. I would've phrased it in a much nicer and more neutral way otherwise. :)

David Mullen ASC

12-22-2008, 07:18 PM

I get tired of the LA feature guys thinking the world works like they do. We DONT.

We also don't want $200k cameras because the cameras were designed for a myopic segment of the image making population.

When a person from a particular industry wants to discuss particular design issues that will affect their work, why not respond likewise in discussing design issues that may affect your different type of work, rather than this equivalent of "oh, just shut up" sort of response?

Anyone wonder why there are so few "LA feature guys" that actually post on RedUser?

If RED has proven anything, it's that they aren't going to only make a $200,000 camera just to cater to high-end productions with deep pockets, so I don't get the hostility as if this was even a possible outcome of this discussion. If RED has proven anything, it is that they are open-minded when it comes to the ideas of customers.

Tom Lowe

12-22-2008, 07:22 PM

Are established 3rd parties going to be allowed to make modules? Seems like that might be a really good idea, IMHO.

Jay A. Kelley

12-22-2008, 08:17 PM

Jay A. Kelley

12-22-2008, 08:28 PM

Brook, the above reminds me of conversations I've had with my wife Tina, who is Dutch.

Every now and again I wonder why she just doesn't SPEAK ENGLISH! ...... well her answer is, why haven't YOU learned to speak any DUTCH!

Maybe the more appropriate phrase you might be looking for is "adapt" or "translate"

Vriendelijke groeten,

Well Stuart I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my mom when a client wanted something different than we were selling. I said, "that guy's wrong!" My Mom replied "The customer is always right". I replied, "can't we get a different customer?" and she said "Sure! Then we earn BOTH their checks".

I THINK you guys know this.. I don't see any mini XLR's on Epic/Scarlet.... :)
It would seem the new system has "adapted" as well.

Jay

Jeff Kilgroe

12-22-2008, 08:41 PM

@ Carsten,

You have made some valid points, but tone it down a notch or two. You're coming off a bit rude. I've already hit two rude posters with the ban hammer today and you're about to become number three.

dino g

12-22-2008, 08:53 PM

i always try and find a way to get the gack off the camera...we do this as much as possible..modulus, aja, preston control box, stb...all in a backpack away from the camera...

i know many people try and fill their cameras with tons of gear to prove that they are working with a "professional" camera, but simplicity rules.

these are some shots of scott duncan, simon thirlaway and crash using red#0031 in a very scaled down configuration, with all of those "other" accessories, tucked away off the camera.

in all of these pictures, the only "third party" accessories on the camera are made by ET; the breakout box and the evf arm.

take the extra ten minutes in prep and make it sexy, gack in the back is what i say...

happy holidays.

enjoy,

Matt Uhry

12-22-2008, 11:50 PM

Brook, the above reminds me of conversations I've had with my wife Tina, who is Dutch.

Every now and again I wonder why she just doesn't SPEAK ENGLISH! ...... well her answer is, why haven't YOU learned to speak any DUTCH!

Maybe the more appropriate phrase you might be looking for is "adapt" or "translate"

Vriendelijke groeten,

A better analogy for the mini bnc's and the mini xlr's would probably be Esperanto. Dutch is actually being used somewhere. I'm glad we've seen the last of those suckers. ( the connectors I mean, actually quite fond of most things Dutch. )

Don't be hating on Brook - he's a cool guy, knows more than anyone I've met about the camera, and every object he owns seems to be covered with Red camera stickers.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry

Jannard

12-23-2008, 11:10 AM

A better analogy for the mini bnc's and the mini xlr's would probably be Esperanto. Dutch is actually being used somewhere. I'm glad we've seen the last of those suckers. ( the connectors I mean, actually quite fond of most things Dutch. )

Don't be hating on Brook - he's a cool guy, knows more than anyone I've met about the camera, and every object he owns seems to be covered with Red camera stickers.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry

Matt... we love Brook. We just posted another of his famous "charts". But presentation is everything. Sometimes wording can infer a different meaning than intended. All we want is for Brook to go to Charm School... and when he gets there, I'll have a seat saved for him right next to me. :-)

Jim

Brent J. Craig

12-23-2008, 11:40 AM

... I look forward to the day when downconversions to SD would be unnecessary on a movie set...

Downconversion should be done at the video assist cart. We already have enough stuff hanging off the cameras and using up power.

We tend to do it that way here in Toronto and it works great - video gets an HD signal to record and play back, they send out SD to whoever needs it and Script gets timecode over the HDSDI.

Stuart English

12-23-2008, 11:44 AM

A better analogy for the mini bnc's and the mini xlr's would probably be Esperanto. Dutch is actually being used somewhere.

But to put this into perspective - why pick out just those two? :red_bandana:

Compared to "traditional" video cameras, we don't use the same connector for all of the following...

Mic / Line Audio Input
Audio Line Output
Video Genlock
Timecode Input
Timecode Output
Video Output(s)
Remote Control
Viewfinder (LCD and HDMI)
Preston / B4 Lens Interface
GPI/O trigger / tally
(CF card and RED-DRIVE)
D.C Power Input

Compared to "traditional" film cameras, we don't use the same connector for all of the following...

(Mic / Line Audio Input)
(Audio Line Output)
(Video Genlock)
Video Output(s)
(Remote Control)
Viewfinder (LCD and HDMI)
Preston / B4 Lens Interface
GPI/O trigger / tally
(CF card and RED-DRIVE)
D.C Power Input
D.C Power Output

Choosing this mix of connectors is what allows RED ONE to be the camera it is.

Jarred Land

12-23-2008, 11:53 AM

There are quite a few cool setups you posted in there Kosmos.. nice work.

Brent J. Craig

12-23-2008, 12:04 PM

I sincerely hope Red will allow third parties to develop modules. I can think of several that would be useful, but that would be more appropriate for other companies to develop. Things like a digital audio interface or wireless transmitter.

On the subject of Preston MDRs, I wonder if they could be made as a Red module, but also have the same external connections as they do now so one could use it on other cameras? Then who would buy a Preston Epic module? Everybody.

Brook Willard

12-23-2008, 01:38 PM

Matt... we love Brook. We just posted another of his famous "charts". But presentation is everything. Sometimes wording can infer a different meaning than intended. All we want is for Brook to go to Charm School... and when he gets there, I'll have a seat saved for him right next to me. :-)

Jim

My brilliant dry sense of humor and impenetrable wit seem lost in text. See you there... :wink: :)

Any thoughts on the Cinema Module [and ENG module, Composite Module, etc.] idea?

Pawel Achtel

12-23-2008, 02:27 PM

Any thoughts on the Cinema Module [and ENG module, Composite Module, etc.] idea?

...and underwater module :bleh:

Pawel Achtel

12-23-2008, 02:35 PM

Duhh,:wacko: Fisher, sorry I'm typing too fast.

It's Fischer, not Fisher :sarcasm:

Brook Willard

12-23-2008, 02:58 PM

D'oh! Good call.

Jay A. Kelley

12-23-2008, 04:17 PM

You know,
Jarred always jokes that he thinks I am a nice guy in person, but kind of a dick on the forums. And when last I checked, I am still the same person, my eyes don't go white and my hands and nuts don't turn green when I type on here (That would hurt I suspect).

But I think there is something about when people type, they do come across different. Jarred is a little rough around the edges on here, but very warm in person. Jim can get down right angry in some posts (I remember the c.com days) but when I met him, it was like I knew him forever. Gibby loves to write about his experience and accomplishments in every post, but when you talk to him in person, all he wants to know about is how you are doing and to share in the joys of your accomplishments.

I cannot say WHY we seem to focus on different aspects of our personality when we type as a primary form of communication, but I do believe the "problem" if you want to call it that is two fold, not only the writer but the reader as well. Without facial experssion, tonality, and body language a lot of "buffers" that normally soften communication between one another is left behind, and the written work can be sharp and cold. Mix that with some pre-existing baggage (I.E. when someone at RED starts to read what they believe is a "bitch session" about this or that camera, it's hard for the emotional shields not to go up) and fireworks will follow.

So is there a solution. I'm not sure. There are a few posters on here who seem to have mastered the concept of non combative communication. David Mullen being one of them, and from what I can tell one of his secrets is that he rarely disagrees with a person directly, instead he simply states his point as dispassionatly as he can, as if he suddenly just decided to talk about this or that point. You know he's answering someone else's post, but he does not come across as attacking or knocking them down.

Perhaps David should hold his own online class "Talking on forums without pissing people off 101"
or
"How to tell someone to go to hell and make them happy to take the trip"

Ok I'm done.

And I'll try to do better Jarred

Jay

Pawel Achtel

12-23-2008, 04:24 PM

Good observation, Jay. I think we need more smileys to better express the mood of the poster http://achtel.com/smiles/banana.gif

David Mullen ASC

12-23-2008, 04:33 PM

So is there a solution. I'm not sure. There are a few posters on here who seem to have mastered the concept of non combative communication. David Mullen being one of them, and from what I can tell one of his secrets is that he rarely disagrees with a person directly, instead he simply states his point as dispassionatly as he can, as if he suddenly just decided to talk about this or that point. You know he's answering someone else's post, but he does not come across as attacking or knocking them down.

That's an ideal situation, but I fail to follow my own advice sometimes... when I respond to cynicism with even greater cynicism, letting someone else set the tone of the conversation and getting suckered into responding in kind. Someone makes a crack comment about me or my work or my industry and I find it hard to not hit back immediately when I'd be better off taking the high road.

I think the trick is to attempt to separate fact from opinion, and then recognize where you are coming from and where the other person is coming from, and how we each carry certain biases and preconceived notions.

I participate partly to be helpful... but also have my mind opened and my preconceptions challenged by conversing with others.

The thing to remember is that this is a community, we should behave like neighbors. Most of the conflict is either generated by too much familiarity, to the point where we forget our table manners, or the opposite, by some stranger who pops in among our midst to reek havoc, only to duck out again when the chairs start flying.

Brook Willard

12-23-2008, 04:40 PM

But I think there is something about when people type, they do come across different. Jarred is a little rough around the edges on here, but very warm in person. Jim can get down right angry in some posts (I remember the c.com days) but when I met him, it was like I knew him forever. Gibby loves to write about his experience and accomplishments in every post, but when you talk to him in person, all he wants to know about is how you are doing and to share in the joys of your accomplishments.

You nailed it, Jay. I've been working on it as well. I like to think I'm fairly normal in person... but I'm sure I've turned more than a few people at RED against me with the way I type.

I think that a lot of us should work towards it. I'll keep working towards phrasing things in a less insulting or inflammatory way and I hope that those who read my posts will understand that I'm still the same Brook behind the keyboard that they know and sometimes love...

Jarred Land

12-23-2008, 04:59 PM

good work Jay... New years resolution for all of us :)

Matt Uhry

12-23-2008, 07:37 PM

Any thoughts on the Cinema Module [and ENG module, Composite Module, etc.] idea?

I'm conflicted - part of me wants them to make the "Matt Uhry" module which everything would be just as I want it and only I will be happy with, but would probably cost more than I would want to pay.

The other part of me wants Red to design the I-O module into something that everybody will be happy with and due to economy of scale be of reasonable cost to produce, and can be sold at an attractive price point. I'm all for this being as cine friendly as possible because that's the best description of how I use the Red and how I will use the Epic.

I think if they do include sound into the basic mass produced I-O module, they should take care that a 2nd module, made by 3rd parties that could be added that would override the audio portion of the data stream. Some great opportunities exists that would please disparate factions.

A Few ideas that NON RED vendors might be interested in making :

1. Multi Pin: Single Mixer Cable input for Analog 4-channel

2. Digital in -

3. Wireless Receivers / Camera Mic input combo. Powered from camera Cable Free.

4. GPS sourced "perfect" time of day clock - Instant stress free sync amongst multiple cameras and recorders over a large area. Forget Jam Syncing.

5. Massive amounts of Meta Data... for mo-co guys and mega VFX integration

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

brandon thomas

12-24-2008, 12:23 AM

Am I the only one that thinks 3rd Party Modules sounds like a bad idea..or at least extremely unlikely?

plus, having all that bandwidth flow through the camera in any config from the brain up front to maybe the Mag all the way at the back.. the throughput is gonna be huge... I'm not sure they're going to want to open that up to just anybody..

Jarred Land

12-24-2008, 01:41 AM

Am I the only one that thinks 3rd Party Modules sounds like a bad idea..or at least extremely unlikely?

My answer to that a year ago would probably be alot different than it is today..

We have a hard enough time just trying to get a darn Lens Mount through certification I can just imagine what will happen to something as complicated as the modules.

Michael Hastings

12-24-2008, 04:23 AM

How about onboard GPS data? Having all of the location data would be great but even if you just grabbed the time data you could easily match recordings from different cameras whether they were 20 feet apart or halfway around the world.

Seems like this would be a pretty cheap addition and if all of the data location data were captured as well I know of some people at NOAA (among a number of others) that would jump all over it.

Jay A. Kelley

12-24-2008, 05:17 AM

My answer to that a year ago would probably be alot different than it is today..

We have a hard enough time just trying to get a darn Lens Mount through certification I can just imagine what will happen to something as complicated as the modules.

I'm not sure I am in favor of other people making modules for RED either.. As least not until the system is locked and has a year of smooth running under it's belt.

I think RED will come out with it's own various lens mounts for Epic/Scarlet so that will be a non issue.

I dunno.. I have been frustrated with RED's support of third partys in some cases and yet there's no agruement that RED supports third party vendors more than any other camera company. It has been a double edge sword for all involved. I do think it's created more advantages than problems though.

Jay

Brent J. Craig

12-24-2008, 06:51 AM

How about onboard GPS data? Having all of the location data would be great but even if you just grabbed the time data you could easily match recordings from different cameras whether they were 20 feet apart or halfway around the world.

I'm hoping for a complete "Camera Position" module that would include differential GPS, multi-axis tilt and roll sensors, and a digital compass. Camera height is important as well - how to solve that technical challenge?

This information would be very useful for visual effects, not to mention scientific and military work.

GPS would need the ability to use an external or wireless antenna for indoor use.

Using GPS to sync timecode is a proven and useful technology as well.

Steve Gibby

12-24-2008, 08:45 AM

Any thoughts on the Cinema Module [and ENG module, Composite Module, etc.] idea?

I think it would be a more constructive if you dropped the references to "ENG" and "ENG/EFP" and plugged in "EFP" for reference to your module suggestion. RED One is rarely used in ENG (electronic news gathering), but is used extensively in EFP (electronic field production) - as will Epic and Scarlet be. The fixed lens Scarlet may be used in small station ENG and network risky situation ENG (think war), but essentially RED One, Epic (s35 & FF 35), and Scarlet (various models), beyond their obvious digital cinema uses, are/will be used widely in EFP production - not ENG.

Steve Gibby

12-24-2008, 09:11 AM

Gibby loves to write about his experience and accomplishments in every post, but when you talk to him in person, all he wants to know about is how you are doing and to share in the joys of your accomplishments.

LOL - got me there Jay!

Seriously - when I reference my work experience on forums it isn't coming from ego, but rather to let readers know how I arrived at the opinions I express - in hopes that added info will explain clearly that the info I present isn't a casual opinion, but developed over time. There are a large number of people here who are new to the motion media industry. My thinking is that maybe by letting them know what my career path has been it may help them consider the diverse options before them for their own careers.

I don't write about my career and accomplishments in "every post", but perhaps more than I should. Hopefully my comments above will shed some light on my motivation for that. Longtime members of RED User have seen many posts by me referencing my experience. I realize that, but this board has grown exponentially and there are constantly new members and lurkers.

I think a starting point for scholarly discussion on anything is to understand the background of the speaker - then in context analyze what he/she says. In my view, if I can get my arms around someone's background, then I can clearly deduce how/why they formed their opinions. Nobody pulls behavior out of a hat. There is a cause/effect relationship to everything we do. Understanding that leads to an understanding of how/why they do or say things.

Nobody is born knowing anything. We all absorb info as we grow. I really believe that learning taken correctly determines that: "The more we learn the more we should realize we don't know".

I've taken a lot of time to share what I know with the members of RED User. It has been a symbiotic relationship - I've contributed here, and I've learned here. That's the best kind of situation in my opinion.

Yes Jay, I'm really interested in people, and I really do want to know how they are doing, and if I can help them with anything. Many people have helped me throughout my life and career. In helping others I do honor to those who have helped me.

Hopefully my words above will help members and visitors here know what motivates me. It is good to be a member of this community. I definitely respect the diversity here.

KETCH ROSSi

12-24-2008, 09:55 AM

LOL - got me there Jay!

Seriously - when I reference my work experience on forums it isn't coming from ego, but rather to let readers know how I arrived at the opinions I express - in hopes that added info will explain clearly that the info I present isn't a casual opinion, but developed over time. There are a large number of people here who are new to the motion media industry. My thinking is that maybe by letting them know what my career path has been it may help them consider the diverse options before them for their own careers.

I don't write about my career and accomplishments in "every post", but perhaps more than I should. Hopefully my comments above will shed some light on my motivation for that. Longtime members of RED User have seen many posts by me referencing my experience. I realize that, but this board has grown exponentially and there are constantly new members and lurkers.

I think a starting point for scholarly discussion on anything is to understand the background of the speaker - then in context analyze what he/she says. In my view, if I can get my arms around someone's background, then I can clearly deduce how/why they formed their opinions. Nobody pulls behavior out of a hat. There is a cause/effect relationship to everything we do. Understanding that leads to an understanding of how/why they do or say things.

Nobody is born knowing anything. We all absorb info as we grow. I really believe that learning taken correctly determines that: "The more we learn the more we should realize we don't know".

I've taken a lot of time to share what I know with the members of RED User. It has been a symbiotic relationship - I've contributed here, and I've learned here. That's the best kind of situation in my opinion.

Yes Jay, I'm really interested in people, and I really do want to know how they are doing, and if I can help them with anything. Many people have helped me throughout my life and career. In helping others I do honor to those who have helped me.

Hopefully my words above will help members and visitors here know what motivates me. It is good to be a member of this community. I definitely respect the diversity here.

Well Steve,

when I first started reading your posts, some of them long in did, I tough that I finally meat my match as far as some one having a BIG Ego, nonetheless I always enjoy the reads as they do present the reader with a very comprehensive explanation of were when and how you do get to your conclusions and there for I believe that it is an importantant factor as to credit your self in order to be trusted in your professional opinions and advises.

When I first meat you during L.A.R.T. in LA, and then again during Sirens of TI here in Vegas, I came across a completely different person then I could ever had espected, in did we talk more about me and my projects (way more :) ), and found out that you are in did a peoples person and you do care far more about others achievements then your own, truly refreshing and inspiring to have meat you ( and your absolutely Lovely Lady Pamala :) ), so keep those post coming Steve... I reading!!

ciao

Clayton Harper

12-24-2008, 12:16 PM

Just be careful throwing around the "band aid" comments though - it doesn't help the conversation along...

Every passing day makes mini-XLR and mini-HDSDI look more and more like a "boo-boo" to me. What's a better metaphor?

Clayton Harper

12-24-2008, 12:39 PM

Hopefully my words above will help members and visitors here know what motivates me.

Sometimes it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about "cine-style" union people looking down on ENG or EFP or whatever you want to call it. This is understandable as most union camera people come off as pissy "know-it-alls". However, your comments about eye-focusing are not helpful.

The techniques developed to allow for focusing without seeing the image were born from not being able to see unexposed film but they continue to be used even with modern video assist or digital cinema production (genesis, F35) because of repeatability. Every tool in that picture is used to help nail focus or send an image to video village to decide if a new take is needed. These crews can't change this manner of working because they are the "hands" of people making the choices. Not all of us are emmy award-winning producers who can do whatever we want and just say "meh" when it comes to getting shots in focus. We have to be sure it's perfect when someone else puts their eyes on it later. A better metal in the mount and the ability to cleanly mount focus assist tools is prolly the answer to this, not spot checking focus. Good lord, just adding an SD output and a Fisher 3-Pin power port would solve half the problem.

Also, God bless Brook Willard. This dude has put so much time and energy into thinking about how to make the camera better for world-class cinema production and every time the Red team acts like he has an attitude problem. Is this because he's young? Personally, I don't care because he has come up with some of the most thoughtful and well-formulated criticisms on these boards

Jim and team, you can't crowd-source your product and then stand back and hope only for raves. It seems to me the people drinking the Kool-aid here tend to be aspirants and close Red confidants. Those people with lots of real world cine production experience get the beat-down for offering up their experience and ideas for free.

Obviously those of us used to using Arri, Aaton, Panavision gear are spoiled in thinking we can have the same thing for 30k. Manufacturing and machining ain't like that. However, some small choices can be made within the parameters already established and that was what I thought reduser was supposed to be all about.

The invar/stainless/aluminum discussion is a step in the right direction. Just give us the prices and let us vote with our wallets.

</end rant>

Let me just finish by saying I love the current Red One and don't expect to be that much happier with the newer cameras. Red has already delivered the miracle. Now we just get a cheaper, low-power, faster miracle.

Rob Gardner

12-24-2008, 01:11 PM

Well, whatever you want to say about Gibby, you must admit, he is a man of few words...

Bruce Allen

12-24-2008, 01:38 PM

That was a great post Clayton. I too really, really hope that people like Brook, Matt Uhry, etc keep up their postings in 2009... charm school or not. They are a strong component of the "signal" part in the S/N ratio of Reduser and obviously have RED's best interests at heart.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Casey Green

12-24-2008, 04:37 PM

good work Jay... New years resolution for all of us :)

I think most of the bases have been covered here. The main issue seems to be how constructive criticism is phrased and that people try to put themselves in other's shoes when suggesting features and improvements for the Camera.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen this thread end on the good note above. ;-)

Happy Holidays, Everyone!

Jannard

12-24-2008, 05:20 PM

Every passing day makes mini-XLR and mini-HDSDI look more and more like a "boo-boo" to me. What's a better metaphor?

Clayton... we get it. We have changed to full-size XLRs going forward. What would you like us to do for you? Take your camera back, build new RED ONE boards and fix it? We have announced that the RED ONE was our 1st camera and accepted the fact that we need to do better with ever piece of our program. We have listened very carefully to our customers and made a huge amount of changes based on the feedback for models coming out. All we can do is improve going forward... so, what exactly is your point and what are you trying to say?

Jim

Jay A. Kelley

12-24-2008, 05:30 PM

Sometimes it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about "cine-style" union people looking down on ENG or EFP or whatever you want to call it. This is understandable as most union camera people come off as pissy "know-it-alls". However, your comments about eye-focusing are not helpful.

The techniques developed to allow for focusing without seeing the image were born from not being able to see unexposed film but they continue to be used even with modern video assist or digital cinema production (genesis, F35) because of repeatability. Every tool in that picture is used to help nail focus or send an image to video village to decide if a new take is needed. These crews can't change this manner of working because they are the "hands" of people making the choices. Not all of us are emmy award-winning producers who can do whatever we want and just say "meh" when it comes to getting shots in focus. We have to be sure it's perfect when someone else puts their eyes on it later. A better metal in the mount and the ability to cleanly mount focus assist tools is prolly the answer to this, not spot checking focus. Good lord, just adding an SD output and a Fisher 3-Pin power port would solve half the problem.

Also, God bless Brook Willard. This dude has put so much time and energy into thinking about how to make the camera better for world-class cinema production and every time the Red team acts like he has an attitude problem. Is this because he's young? Personally, I don't care because he has come up with some of the most thoughtful and well-formulated criticisms on these boards

Jim and team, you can't crowd-source your product and then stand back and hope only for raves. It seems to me the people drinking the Kool-aid here tend to be aspirants and close Red confidants. Those people with lots of real world cine production experience get the beat-down for offering up their experience and ideas for free.

Obviously those of us used to using Arri, Aaton, Panavision gear are spoiled in thinking we can have the same thing for 30k. Manufacturing and machining ain't like that. However, some small choices can be made within the parameters already established and that was what I thought reduser was supposed to be all about.

The invar/stainless/aluminum discussion is a step in the right direction. Just give us the prices and let us vote with our wallets.

</end rant>

Let me just finish by saying I love the current Red One and don't expect to be that much happier with the newer cameras. Red has already delivered the miracle. Now we just get a cheaper, low-power, faster miracle.

I'm so sorry to see our new year's resolution killed so quickly. And Bruce, don't think for a second that people who write combative posts are listened too, therefore do not encourage them. If you want someone to go to bat for you, then you must get them on your side.

Being "right" is not all it's cracked up to be.

Jay

JanneJansson

12-25-2008, 04:57 AM

Being "right" is not all it's cracked up to be.

Jay

That is RIGHT! To be the dumbass that do/write somthing completely "wrong" is often most rewarding. Just look at red :) To follow old ideas is simple, to form a new one is hard.

Jay A. Kelley

12-25-2008, 05:57 AM

I'm going to take the high road here. No more getting into fights that will simply lead me right back where I started.

The Epic/Scarlet system is an attempt by RED to answer as many complaints/suggestions as possible users have given to the R1 system. If they stay on schedule, they will have managed to do this within 3 years of their first released camera.

I'm sure they will only continue to get better.

Jay

Daniel Reichenbach

12-25-2008, 09:26 AM

To have a good knowledge about camera and film means not, to have a good knowledge about behavior. Even if I consider, that some of the guys who act on reduser like a caterpillar in a rose garden (or was it the elephant in...), want's to share some good comments and ideas, I expect more calm and fairness toward the RED team.

tj williams

12-25-2008, 02:55 PM

May the Spirit of Christmas possess us all. We all want different aks. some even want different stuff for different jobs.

We've had our RED1 configured in just about all the ways shown... just not with the cool looking RED matt box. We always have a bunch of cables. incl minimum lcd/efv/ with often Audio or TC reference and usually HDSDI out
I think all the renders should show minimum cables! This may encourage elegance with cables! just my two bits worth.

Here is what I'd like for Christmas!

RED Modules. I'd like it if the brain could connect by cable to the other modules for several uses where I'd like the camera to be smaller:
IE Hand Held waist shooting doco.with all the other stuff in a backpack, underwater on a stick mount RE Iconix, or in a very small aerial mount I can borrow fm the local tv station. I'd like to be able to start stop from either the remote pack or from the camera. For the backpack waist shooting doco use I'd like the small lcd to plug into the brain. or a very small junction box on the rear of the brain. If you have never shot this way holding the camera at waist level and looking down does not make people nearly so aware that you are shooting.

Non-RED onboard batteries. including AB Vmount and remote brick. I had to have a cable made to remote Cine 60 4 pin XLR wiring. Red should supply such a cable as an accessory for dolly work or long running. I use an AB Box with two batts on it so we never need to power down while lion the dolly. I'd like it if the EPIC/Scarlet (ES) could address all makers batts re rate of discharge indicators etc. Hoping the new Lemo power in on the ES cameras has the same size and pin configuration to use my wire and my Batt plates.

RED Storage, My raid mags from RED are great, new Compact flash is coming out all the time. I have been on location when our box with the flash cards did not show. I would have gone to the local Costco etc and got some flash cards to see me thru the day but as most of you know they wil not mount if not from RED. I also lost a job this year because I could not get a RED Body to Esata cable which would enable me to run directly into the clients massive storage for a 12 hour recording without stopping. These would be nice accessories which I don't think will cut into RED Flash and Mag sales.

I'd like full size XLR Connectors (Thanks for this promise Jim!) it would also be nice if they face somewhat to the rear instead of out to the side. If they must be flush with the side then oriented so right angle connectors will attach without blocking the next one. Standard Digital input and the multi. pin that all the ENG sound people have on the end of their snakes would also be nice.

We use the Preston Fiz It would be nice if RED sold a really slick adapter to Preston/Bartek/and several of the other receiver boxes. if not probably Elemnet technica or someone will.

We have AJA Downconverters. It would be nice if RED sold a nicely integrated mount for several of the common downconverters and the common transmitters like Canatrans and Modulus. It would also be nice if this adapter could support some of the common microwave links. I would be totally amazed if RED came out with an HDSDI transmitter/receiver!!!

Ambient Lockit Box. Denecke SB-T. CineTape horn & display.
Lens Light. are all common accessories and it would be nice to see some adapters and bracketry to support them

I hope the power outputs on the ES cameras will be more robust so we can power up lenses from the front, unlike the Canon EOS adapter where the power wire has to run to the rear of the body on the RED1

Fisher 3-pin would sure be a nice out to put the multi port adapter up for lens power etc. this is such a common setup it would be nice to be Arri std here and not require an adapter.

Please don't make me keep the mini bnc breakout box. I'll be glad to loose the $500 to have hdsdi etc come out on standard BNC connectors. once again either angled to the rear or with room for right angle BNC's I often use Right angle RCA Connectors for this as they will pull out without damage to the BNCs on the camera body.

I think RED Engineers giving more thought to making the RED E/S cameras compatable with the standard input output and accessorys of both video cameras and film cameras will help us save money and work well with readily available rental gear when we need to gear up and allow us to use accessories and cables we already have for our other cameras. It's nice when accessories work the same as they do on our Sony Panasonic or Arriflex cameras. A fully loaded Epic will be much more organized looking and cleaner to operate if RED Gives thought to the basic cables and also considers the run and lie of optional cables and boxes. Hey isn't this what modularity really means?

Steve Gibby

12-26-2008, 03:49 PM

Sometimes it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about "cine-style" union people looking down on ENG or EFP or whatever you want to call it. This is understandable as most union camera people come off as pissy "know-it-alls".

RED One is squarely aimed at the cine and EFP industries. The DSMC cameras are clearly aimed at three different industries: cine, EFP, and digital stills. Everyone here needs to realize these intended uses for the cameras, expect input here from a diverse array of workers, and give equal respect to others here. I’m dead sure Jim and Jarred would agree with this need. Moderators here need to check their biases at the door, be respectful of all industries represented by these cameras, and al least make an attempt to understand the basic terms for the industries represented by these cameras and their users. If is seems like I have a chip on my shoulder sometimes it may be because bilateral respect between industries represented here is oftentimes lacking – not just among the members, but also among the moderators here. Respect is a 2-way street.

However, your comments about eye-focusing are not helpful.

I have a fat folder full of “Thank You” emails and PMs to me, from members and lurkers here, dating clear back to early 2006 that thank me for my insight into eye-focusing RED One. Apparently there are a lot of members and lurkers here who don’t agree with your opinion on that.

The techniques developed to allow for focusing without seeing the image were born from not being able to see unexposed film but they continue to be used even with modern video assist or digital cinema production (genesis, F35) because of repeatability. Every tool in that picture is used to help nail focus or send an image to video village to decide if a new take is needed. These crews can't change this manner of working because they are the "hands" of people making the choices. Not all of us are emmy award-winning producers who can do whatever we want and just say "meh" when it comes to getting shots in focus. We have to be sure it's perfect when someone else puts their eyes on it later. A better metal in the mount and the ability to cleanly mount focus assist tools is prolly the answer to this, not spot checking focus. Good lord, just adding an SD output and a Fisher 3-Pin power port would solve half the problem.

Narrative cinema is but one genre with the cinematic production world. In many other genres and sub-genres of cine production and EFP production, sight focusing is the norm – and quite often the very best choice of focusing. Narrative cinema may call for repeatability of focus, but these other genres of cine production and EFP production do not have a repeatability of focus need. A few examples would be sports, wildlife, travel, documentaries of various kinds, lifestyle, tourism, many business productions, and on and on. These productions are not hardlined, operators rack their own focus, there is no need for focus repeatability, crews are small, etc – thus sight focusing is almost always the best choice. Narrative cinema people here seem to think the motion media production world revolves around them and must follow their field production methods. That’s simply not the case. If your genres never call for sight focusing, fine, have at it. If your genres call for sight focusing, fine, do it. If you work in a broad range of genres and must decide for each one when to traditionally focus, or when to sight focus, great, do it. There is no right or wrong way to focus RED One – just a right or wrong way for each particular production you’re doing.

Also, God bless Brook Willard. This dude has put so much time and energy into thinking about how to make the camera better for world-class cinema production and every time the Red team acts like he has an attitude problem. Is this because he's young? Personally, I don't care because he has come up with some of the most thoughtful and well-formulated criticisms on these boards.

Yes he has put a lot of much appreciated energy into suggestions for the cinema production capabilities of RED One and the future camera – but IMO almost no attention to the EFP capabilities of any of those cameras – even though RED Team has stated from the beginning that RED One (and now the DSMC cameras) are definitely also targeted at the EFP market – and stills market now. IMO Brook is fully just zeroed in on his style of production – and many times forgets to acknowledge and be sensitive to the diversity of backgrounds represented on RED User – and then when he does, he is not very facile in the acronyms and technology needs of other industries which RED One is used in. For a mid-20’s guy a few years out of film school at Chapman College, Brook is amazingly loaded with info. IMO what RED is getting at is that Brook needs to be more sensitive sometimes in how he words his posts.

Jim and team, you can't crowd-source your product and then stand back and hope only for raves. It seems to me the people drinking the Kool-aid here tend to be aspirants and close Red confidants. Those people with lots of real world cine production experience get the beat-down for offering up their experience and ideas for free.

There are members and lurkers here for the cine, EFP, and stills industries – and many convergent workers who regularly work in all three. If someone gets the beat down for offering up their real-world experience, perhaps it’s because their input is offered as the only way to do things, with very little tact, and/or it is offered insensitively as “the only way to do things” on a production. Again – we’re back around to respect being a 2-way street. Around here everyone should give respect, and receive respect.

Obviously those of us used to using Arri, Aaton, Panavision gear are spoiled in thinking we can have the same thing for 30k. Manufacturing and machining ain't like that. However, some small choices can be made within the parameters already established and that was what I thought reduser was supposed to be all about.

By naming just Arri, Aaton, and Panavision in what you’re used to, would it be safe to assume that you don’t have any background in EFP or the digital stills industries? Those are the other intended use industries for the DSMC cameras. RED User should be a community of exchange for all three industries intended for RED cameras – not just cine style production.

The invar/stainless/aluminum discussion is a step in the right direction. Just give us the prices and let us vote with our wallets.

Agreed – Jim has agreed to those new options. We will all vote with our wallets. My PL mounts will be stainless.

Let me just finish by saying I love the current Red One and don't expect to be that much happier with the newer cameras. Red has already delivered the miracle. Now we just get a cheaper, low-power, faster miracle.

I also love my RED One cameras. That said, I do deeply appreciate and anticipate the broader utility that these smaller, faster, higher DR, more overcrank capability cameras will deliver. The motion media industry is increasingly dynamic – and decreasingly static. It’s a very cool time to be in this industry – thanks in part to companies like RED.

Steve Gibby

12-26-2008, 03:54 PM

Well, whatever you want to say about Gibby, you must admit, he is a man of few words...

Hmmmm...let me see, here's a short post by Gibby:

forrest - trees

:biggrin:

Steve Gibby

12-26-2008, 03:56 PM

And here's another short post by Gibby:

Thanks for the kind words Ketch...

Ciao

Sanjin Jukic

12-26-2008, 03:59 PM

Well answered Gibby!!!

Tom Lowe

12-26-2008, 04:07 PM

I think where the trouble comes in is when strictly cinema shooters say stuff along the lines of, "Oh, you only shoot nature and surf videos..." That sort of thing is condescending. Would you dismiss an IMAX shooter because his subject matter is wildlife in Africa? Surely not. A lot of the camera dept chumps I've met in LA aren't qualified to polish the lens of a true IMAX or National Geographic DP.

Mutual respect is the key here. :)

Frank Weeks

12-26-2008, 05:30 PM

forrest - trees

Long or short, always enjoy your perspective Gibby.

Hope to see you again at NAB.

Happy Holidays

Brook Willard

12-26-2008, 06:12 PM

Yes he has put a lot of much appreciated energy into suggestions for the cinema production capabilities of RED One and the future camera – but IMO almost no attention to the EFP capabilities of any of those cameras – even though RED Team has stated from the beginning that RED One (and now the DSMC cameras) are definitely also targeted at the EFP market – and stills market now. IMO Brook is fully just zeroed in on his style of production – and many times forgets to acknowledge and be sensitive to the diversity of backgrounds represented on RED User – and then when he does, he is not very facile in the acronyms and technology needs of other industries which RED One is used in. For a mid-20’s guy a few years out of film school at Chapman College, Brook is amazingly loaded with info. IMO what RED is getting at is that Brook needs to be more sensitive sometimes in how he words his posts.

My lack of attention towards EFP is generally because I have zero experience in that area. I absolutely do not view it as a lesser form of production in any way - I just don't have the knowledge or experience to back my thoughts in that department. I could probably form some ideas regarding camera function and accessories in that genre of production... but ultimately I would be making it up. I don't like to pretend to be something I'm not... so I would never pretend to know much about what an EFP shooter would want or need out of a camera. As far as terminology is concerned, it's simply easier for me to write "ENG/EFP" instead of ENG and EFP. I understand that they are different and don't mean to insult if it appears that I have lumped them into one discipline.

I do understand the trepidation regarding that perspective, however. To the stereotypical blinder-wearing film guy, one might see two areas of production merged into one because they use "video cameras" that look essentially the same... whereas cine-style production uses "film cameras" that look very different. I am not that guy, fear not. :)

So my apparent lack of sensitivity towards varying styles of production is not not not me trying to shrug it off. It's just me focusing on my area of expertise and experience while leaving the rest for those who work in different areas of production. That's you, Gibby. :)

Also, what sometimes reads as harsh or insulting out of my fingers is not nearly so bad when it's out of my mouth. It's not that I'm a different person when hiding behind a keyboard... it's that I just have a certain style of writing that can send the wrong signals to those that don't know me well. I have a very dry and sarcastic sense of humor... and anybody like me will tell you that those traits rarely translate to text well. I'll rattle a dozen thoughts and ideas off in 30 seconds with great excitement and slap the post button on the way out. I'm way better at delicate phrasing in person.

I should also note that as a DIT in the high-end cinema crowd, I find myself defending RED for 13+ hours of every day. When time is money, there is a big difference between saying "I suspect that they invented the 4-pin LEMO standard for its increased functionality when compared to the 3-pin Fischer output. It is a similar connector, but provides additional accessory support and forward thinking. Furthermore, since the RED ONE is designed to appeal to multiple markets, it was not RED's concern to match the Arri standard. It's actually a great output with some nice functionality, but I do wish it was an Arri-style Fischer output" and "I dunno, because that's just how they made it. I hope they change it for the next camera too. Just use this adapter in the mean time." You can only answer the question "what are these bullshit RED plugs?" [direct quote, that's not me saying that] so many times before you start cutting out the sunshine and match the attitude of the other person for brevity's sake. I really do love the guys and the camera, don't worry. I hope nobody takes this paragraph the wrong way... because I don't mean it like that. It's just an efficiency thing for me.

So yeah, I'm working on adjusting the apparent attitude to make my ideas easier to swallow. It'll be the same me posting from here onwards... but I'll try to spend more time with my posts to make the attitude in text match the friendly attitude I generally write my posts with. In the mean time, I'd just hate to see ideas ignored because it seems like I'm being a passive-aggressive jerk [when I'm really not!]. Don't worry, if I'm ever trying to be a jerk on the forums... you'll know it. :devil:

So far RED has rocked the house with reception to these ideas. A quick re-reading of my ergonomics post will reveal that RED either listened to every single idea I wrote and followed it... or at least didn't prevent an accessory from filling the void. They freakin' nailed it.

That's why I think the idea of genre-focused modules would be so fantastic. One of my original fears with the Epic was that RED would try to create a camera that was a jack of all trades but a master of none. As you said, RED has tackled three target audiences with this camera: high-end cinema, EFP and stills photography. Those are three very different trades to tackle with one body.

That's why this module idea RED has come up with is so fantastic. You won't see many cinema guys grabbing the stills handgrips for the camera... just as you probably won't see many stills guys grabbing the ports module [but they could if they wanted to!]. I think that there should be some more focused modules to tackle the high-end cinema market and EFP market with the same specificity as the stills handgrip.

The ports module is very nice, but it essentially matches the design of the RED ONE [with a few significant upgrades like the inclusion of BNCs]. While this is great for a lot of genres [and functional for others, as proven by the RED ONE's success in the high-end cinema market], it could be better in many ways. I don't want the ports module to go away... not at all.

But in the same way that certain elements of the RED ONE's design might not have been perfect for EFP, other elements are not perfect for high-end cinema production.

So each genre of production could have its own perfectly focused box... designed by the community that uses the camera! Beyond that, the really really exciting part of this idea is that it would never take anything away from another genre of production. I could have my cinema-style outputs, specific ergonomic design and bracketry that I'm looking for... and you could have exactly what you're looking for in a different module [the absence of detail is just because I'm not sure what you want in a camera... again because I'm not an EFP guy]. Furthermore, those that don't like how we "LA feature guys" do it over here could buy a different module - perhaps the port module or perhaps something that RED hasn't even thought of yet. It makes everybody happy... especially RED. They get to sell more accessories! :)

So that's my thought... just restated a little.

Thanks!

Steve Gibby

12-26-2008, 07:49 PM

Brook,

Thanks for shedding more light on what motivates you. No matter which style of image making media we work in, they all fall into the overall family of communication arts. Clear communication is the key to having people understand where we're at and what our agenda is. I think you did an excellent job in your post of communicating what motivates you.

Since I work mainly in EFP production I've been more than happy to carry that info ball on these RED forums through the years. My agenda has been: to help people understand alternative field workflows, learn what I can from others, be a contributing part of the overall RED User community, find new associates, and network my business wherever possible.

I love working in all three styles represented here on RED User: cine, EFP, and stills. It has just been a matter of circumstance that kept me mostly in EFP in recent years, but I never pass a chance to work in cine style, and when the urge hits I really dig taking out one of my DSLRs and go shoot some pics - or integrate shooting some stills into a cine or EFP project I'm working on. I've always appreciated the commonality of art between cine style, EFP style, and shooting stills: exposure, framing, composition, focus, etc. Until the mid '90's, working in all three essentially required mastering mostly separate technologies. With convergence in technology of those three divisions though, it blows my mind as an artist how the same technology can be leveraged out into all three mediums. Pretty cool I'd say...

Media and technology convergence is not without its growing pains. Companies like RED are spearheading the movement, but its not easy for working professionals in previously separate industries to now get our arms around the concepts of the increasing commonality of technology usage, and the mushrooming options we have to express our art and make a living.

I've learned a lot on RED User from members who work in all three industries - and I expect to continue to learn new things from them looking forward.

I really like the module concept you mentioned. I think it has a lot of merit and validity. That said, RED is focused in on developing the DSMC cameras, new sensors, and new accessories. I'm not sure they're up to tackling the whole module concept, for various reasons we may not be aware of. It may be that the modules will be developed by good 3rd party companies - like ET, View Factor, etc.

Your ergonomics input was well thought out. There have been a lot of others of us who have been submitting ergonomics comments (and other features input) directly to RED which paralleled many of your concepts. For a modular camera there are only so many ways to go with the brain, then working outward from there is where you differentiate the usage of the camera via lenses, accessories, etc. RED has the flick on that. Within their time and resource constraints I see them enabling as much as they can in the camera brains and accessories they feel the need to produce - then leaving it to good 3rd party suppliers to develop products outward from there for each industry and sub-industry within the three intended uses of the cameras.

Again, thanks for clearing the air on your thoughts. We all have the same goal - that RED cameras be the best they can be, while retaining their modularity and flexibility. That's good common ground...

Brook Willard

12-26-2008, 09:37 PM

I really like the module concept you mentioned. I think it has a lot of merit and validity. That said, RED is focused in on developing the DSMC cameras, new sensors, and new accessories. I'm not sure they're up to tackling the whole module concept, for various reasons we may not be aware of. It may be that the modules will be developed by good 3rd party companies - like ET, View Factor, etc.

That is an interesting point... I'm sure they are up to their ears in working on the cameras. If third party support is permitted [which I can only assume it will be when the specifications are locked down], it would be good if folks already had a head start. While it is impossible to know the specifications to which an accessory must be designed now... our requirements for an accessory are not likely to change in that time. Now is the time to put the pen to paper and start work on these puppies. It took a long time for the industry to turn the RED ONE into a fully outfitted production camera [for out-of-the-case-and-on-to-a-head cinema production, that is]... and both RED and the collective "we" have learned from that. I'm looking to hit the ground in a full sprint with these cameras... that's why I've been so outspoken with my ideas and feedback. I hope I'm not alone. :)

tj williams

12-26-2008, 10:17 PM

Looking forward to seeing the RED high end Cine module and RED Efp Module RENDERINGS complete with all the cables and accessories laid out elegantly.

Clayton Harper

12-27-2008, 11:24 AM

Gibby,

I have total respect for your accomplishments and it is true to say that I have very little ENG experience. I think you are also right on the money when you say Red's market is mostly gonna be ENG EFP people. Volumes dictate that.

My contention was that this is a thread about the fact that Cinema folks are bolting a lot of shit on the camera. There are some very simple things that can be done in the design that will A) let us bolt less things on the camera and B) let us bolt the remaining things on cleanly.

My boss at work (the DP) is not gonna let me eye focus the camera. Therefore, I need a cinetape and rock solid focus marks on the lens at all temperatures. If I tell my boss that Steve Gibby said I should eye focus, he will tell me that's nice and hand me the cinetape. :biggrin: I don't think Brook's request to let us easily bolt other things on the camera will stop Steve Gibby from eye focusing, but it should will make my life easier.

The real dream will be modules that have the ports I need for me and a module that has the ports for you and we can go crazy on our own industry specific threads. :weight_lift:

Sorry about the punctuation and late response. I am surfing in Sayulita MX and the internet sucks here. Much respect and love and I hope you have a happy holidays.:biggrin:

Rick Darge

12-27-2008, 11:53 AM

I see a new paradigm where EFP & Cinema merge into one! Where filmmakers can eye focus their features and EFP guys can take advantage of cine-DOF

Steve Gibby

12-27-2008, 11:58 AM

Hey Clayton,

Great way to vacation - warm water waves, fresh fish, mangos, papayas - I've been on many extended surfing trips way down on the Mexican mainland. Wish I was there!

I think the suggestions for ways to configure all the cables and connectors on Epic are very good ones. That said, my guess is that RED will make the brains and accessories they feel they need to - then leave it up to 3rd party developers to develop accessory packs and modules outward from there. The cool thing about an ultra-modular camera is you can build it outward into whatever you need.

I think Brook, you, and for that matter all of us no matter what styles we shoot in, are interested in hitting the ground running with ready to rock setups - thus all the discussion in advance on accessories and setups. I know when I shoot cine style I always have heavier setups with spaghetti all over them - much more so than the non-hardlined EFP setups. I think you guys are on the right path to figure this out as early as possible. If you don't, your competition in your workspace will.

Peace braddah...

Snag a few barrels down there in Sayulita for me...I'm about ready to bust out the credit card and jet off to somewhere with warm waves myself (Hawaii this time).

Steve Gibby

12-27-2008, 12:16 PM

I see a new paradigm where EFP & Cinema merge into one! Where filmmakers can eye focus their features and EFP guys can take advantage of cine-DOF

I would agree with that. Technology will eventually enable that. But change in large crew productions will happen slowly for a number for factors - comfort zones, familiarity, tradition, legacy investments, unions, repeatability, extremely shallow DOF shots, rental houses, and many more.

Right now with RED One, for non-union productions shooting non-narrative features (nature, etc.), and most non-hardlined EFP productions (docs, sports, wildlife, travel, food, cultures, lifestyle, etc.) eye focusing is already widely used. With RED One on our EFP productions we use shallow DOF regularly for our inbumps, outbumps, and creative montages. To me, if an EFP genre calls for it, the more cinematic the shots, the better. Wide open aperture eye focusing is a real challenge, but in non-narrative EFP genres its being achieved with RED, on more static shots, and shots without a lot of to lens/away from lens subject movement.

Obviously the core technology for a cine, EFP, or stills setup on Epic and Scarlet will be essentially the same. It is the lenses, certain accessories, and the way the cameras are used that will differentiate the field workflows.

The cool thing with a modular, flexible camera system is that it gives you a lot of options for equipment setups, and how you use the camera. IMO there is no right or wrong way to use RED One, and EPIC and Scarlet to come - just the better way to use them for each particular production or portion thereof. Even guys who work all week in traditional focus environments have the option to take RED cameras out on their days off and eye focus some stock footage or a moonlight EFP project - all by themselves if necessary. Conversely, guys who eye focus all week, also have the option to traditionally focus if they get a project where that is the best choice for workflow.

What you're describing is what I like to call hybrid cine/EFP production - using combinations of cine and EFP equipment and techniques, and also quite often adding in 35mm stills lenses. That is primarily how I've been using RED One every since I received my first RED One camera.

That obviously can't be done on certain crew situations and genres of production. But when hybrid equipment and techniques can be used, it is effective and way fun!

I'm not saying it will be on Epic or Scarlet, but I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see a user-programmable, multi-point auto focus systems which could solve the repeatability of focus needs. Essentially you would rehearse the scene, with actors walking through their marks, lock the auto focus tracking onto the object you want in focus, take the scene, while video village cross checks the results in real time on a high-resolution monitor, and if wanted then roll back the recorded footage to micro-check how the focus was.

Way cool times we're working in...:gun:

Joseph Ward

12-27-2008, 12:45 PM

Wonder if 1080P is going to have a hardlined(wired/wireless) EFP/ENG use. Can the Live View 720P be used for hardlined use?

Steve Gibby

12-27-2008, 12:59 PM

Wonder if 1080P is going to have a hardlined(wired/wireless) EFP/ENG use. Can the Live View 720P be used for hardlined use?

Good questions. Until the tech specs for the new cameras are locked down and announced, I don't think we'll be able to answer your questions.

Hardlined EFP (and ENG) requires multiple functions on the cameras to be controllable by the technical director in the control room or truck. Whether Epic and/or Scarlet will have that level of remote control in their final specs will remain to be seen.

The preliminary specs show smart camera mounts, electronics to lenses, etc.

Hardlined EFP and hardlined ENG are very big markets for equipment. Many of the entities in those styles already use RED One for their peripheral non-hardlined EFP b-roll production - the pre-shot footage they roll into their hardlned productions.

Casey Green

12-27-2008, 01:41 PM

My lack of attention towards EFP is generally because I have zero experience in that area. I absolutely do not view it as a lesser form of production in any way - I just don't have the knowledge or experience to back my thoughts in that department. I could probably form some ideas regarding camera function and accessories in that genre of production... but ultimately I would be making it up. I don't like to pretend to be something I'm not... so I would never pretend to know much about what an EFP shooter would want or need out of a camera. As far as terminology is concerned, it's simply easier for me to write "ENG/EFP" instead of ENG and EFP. I understand that they are different and don't mean to insult if it appears that I have lumped them into one discipline.

Instead of distancing oneself, (as in, "that's not my bag, baby") perhaps one should take the opportunity and embrace alternate types of shooting environments by doing research in those areas as well. It's a huge internet out there.

Here's a head start:
http://tinyurl.com/86mbb6

;-) Meant in good fun, with perhaps a point to be taken. (And intended for plenty of people other than yourself). Understanding other shooting environments can only help one become more well-rounded and professional. They also are used more and more within Cine style productions these days as Gibby alluded to.

I should also note that as a DIT in the high-end cinema crowd, I find myself defending RED for 13+ hours of every day. When time is money, there is a big difference between saying "I suspect that they invented the 4-pin LEMO standard for its increased functionality when compared to the 3-pin Fischer output. It is a similar connector, but provides additional accessory support and forward thinking. Furthermore, since the RED ONE is designed to appeal to multiple markets, it was not RED's concern to match the Arri standard. It's actually a great output with some nice functionality, but I do wish it was an Arri-style Fischer output" and "I dunno, because that's just how they made it. I hope they change it for the next camera too. Just use this adapter in the mean time." You can only answer the question "what are these bullshit RED plugs?" [direct quote, that's not me saying that] so many times before you start cutting out the sunshine and match the attitude of the other person for brevity's sake. I really do love the guys and the camera, don't worry. I hope nobody takes this paragraph the wrong way... because I don't mean it like that. It's just an efficiency thing for me.

As someone who also has worked on a few of these types of productions, I can understand where you are coming from. The atmosphere and etiquette is quite an interesting thing and varies from production to production. Often, there can be very high pressure situations, with very little time for explanation. Even so, I would say that the above comments you receive ("what are these bullshit RED plugs?", etc.) arise out of a combination a several factors, and not just that the RED ONE Camera has some unique, shall we say, design choices.

For instance:

1) Digital / Film: As we know, there are plenty of DPs, Operators, ACs, etc, that are resisting Digital at any chance they get. Whether this is job security, not wanting to learn new technology, or just having a passion for working with film, this can often times encourage people to zero in on something that isn't as big a deal as they would make it out to be. While slightly inconvenient, I'm sure some people have gone out of their way to make it seem like a bigger deal than it is.

2) Youth: Treating the new guy with a lack of respect or giving him/her a hard time just seems to be something that is part of the human condition. This can be amplified in this industry and especially on big budget sets. If you are young and in a highly technical position, sometimes this can make other people feel uneasy or threatened, even jealous. Keep in mind that as a DIT or Data Capture Technician (and a young one at that), you may be earning more money than many crew members on the set that have been in the business for many years. Most people realize this and may or may not be that thrilled with the idea. In my first few years, I experienced this, but now to a much lesser degree.

3) Personalities / Perspective: It would be good if all Film Schools had a mandatory Psychology program as well. On set, it gets much easier as you realize how and when to deal with people the more and more you do things. One thing that is good to keep in mind, is that it's just a movie (or other form of production). As crazy as the environments can get, at the end of the day, people go home to their families and continue their lives. You will find that no matter the situation, you get through it, the show goes on, and you come back another day to make the magic all over again. While you want to try your best every day, it's not always necessary to get too defensive when you are being questioned. A lot of times, I think people can see a new face and think it's a chance to test the person. If they get a reaction, then they may try and push your buttons more. If you realize this is nothing new, and shrug it off, you'll probably have an easier day. :-) Also, at the same time, having a respectful attitude and taking a modest approach can go a long way to not ruffling feathers.

4) Comfort Level: Your not always going to be able to please everyone or make everyone understand. It also may take a much longer time for others to come to the conclusions you have about the technology. I have some colleagues that are well respected throughout the industry that are slow adopters. For me and my situation, RED fits perfectly and I can use it and recommend it knowing it is the right tool for the job. I also am used to certain work-arounds or workflow conditions. I accept them. Someone else may not consider that within their comfort zone (yet) and may resist the technology until it is. I know several people that have changed their minds after certain features were enabled or workflow options were released.

I'm happy to see these discussions taking place and think for the most part they are very constructive. RED certainly would not be what it is today without the community that surrounds it and continues to grow. Thank you to everyone who continues to contribute to these thoughtful discussions. Let's keep them going and try to consider many points of view while doing so.

Jarred Land

12-27-2008, 03:09 PM

Great Post Casey... Great post. I can't express how true your last paragraph is.

I'm happy to see these discussions taking place and think for the most part they are very constructive. RED certainly would not be what it is today without the community that surrounds it and continues to grow. Thank you everyone who continues to contribute to these thoughtful discussions. Let's keep them going and try to consider many points of view while doing so.

tj williams

12-27-2008, 04:52 PM

Yes that is a great paragraph. I'd like to note that the renders of the RED1 did not show cables. The sight of the RED1 camera that leads this thread should INMHO greatly motivate any designer who loves clean and orderly structure.

I'm hoping to see cables in the renders of the new Scarlet/Epic setups. So that when Brook gets his new camera the add on pieces will fit on in a better cleaner way.

I'm thinking here: cables in guides, cables close to the body, orderly ways to add and remove accessories provided by RED. maybe even modules for specific purposes. maybe side modules? maybe accessories such as focus/transmission/distance measuring built into modules or standard pieces affixed with RED custom mounts which tightly integrate with the camera shape.

Jarred Land

12-27-2008, 07:38 PM

hey Tj :)

I am glad that you guys are starting to understand the foundation of modular concept.... even if its subconscious through your dialogue :)

at the end of the day, I think we can all agree.. One camera configuration can't make everyone happy.

Steve Gibby

12-27-2008, 07:45 PM

Jarred beat me to it Casey - very nice post indeed - especially your last paragraph, which summarizes why we're all here and how RED user should function.

One note: the EFP info on the Wikipedia link (tinyurl) you posted is very limited in scope and definition. I'd like to suggest that anyone who is curious about the divisions of EFP (hardlined and non-hardlined) and their relationship to ENG might want to visit my "EFP & ENG Definitions and Explanations" sticky page at the top of the EFP/ENG and RED forum here on RED User.

Link: http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

I wrote and posted that sticky about 21 months ago to help RED User members and visitors who may not be clear on EFP and ENG styles of production and their similarities and differences. It was also written to help give readers some fresh ideas on ways to put their RED One cameras to added use, spread their skill sets, and hopefully make some more money.

I haven't updated that sticky to include the potential EFP and ENG uses of Epic and Scarlet, but I'll do so after the specs for those cameras are finalized. If accessorized and lensed for it, the preliminary specs for both the s35 and FF35 Epic and all models of Scarlet show great promise for use in non-hardlined EFP production. Some Scarlet models may also be used for single person crew news gathering (ENG).

Being an experienced EFP guy yourself, you know that each year non-hardlined EFP production is by far the most numerous style of production in the entire motion media spectrum of production styles - and RED One is an extremely capable tool for it.

I hope the info on my sticky can help some of you others to understand EFP and ENG, and to potentially spread your work genres to include some of the genres within it.

We've strayed off the original topic of this thread, but the peripheral info presented by everyone has helped create a healthy exchange of ideas. - and that's what we're here for.

Meryem Ersoz

12-27-2008, 08:05 PM

That's why I think the idea of genre-focused modules would be so fantastic.

I don't know if it's an option, but it is a great idea, if RED could take it on....it would eliminate one of the last divisive conversations, if EFP shooters could have EFP modules and cine folks could have cine modules...

...and people who have a need for both could have both, depending on the situation...or rent as needed.

Although I am guessing from what we have seen from the renders that this will be already baked into the modular design, as in, if you don't need on-camera sound, skip the audio module altogether. Et cetera...

Steve Gibby

12-27-2008, 08:19 PM

All EPIC/Scarlet specs are subject to change, but in RED's 12/3 brochure, on the "Interchangeable and upgradable everything..." page, the Pro Cinema I/O module appears to have nearly all, if not all of the I/O capability EFP workers would normally be looking for – timecode, sync, audio, and dual link HD-SDI.

Link: http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/

Its a more comprehensive I/O module that Brook and other cine guys are asking for. I guess time will tell if RED makes such a cine breakout module or a 3rd party does it.

Brook Willard

12-27-2008, 08:47 PM

Thanks for catching that, Gibby. The module that I am dreaming of has not yet been designed... it's only been put to paper in my notebook. :) The current IO module is great for a lot of things, but I'm interested in a more specialized module.

I know you know that by now, I'm just adding further clarification.

Casey Green

12-27-2008, 10:20 PM

Thanks guys. I'm glad to be a part of the evolution.

Gibby, you are right. The link posted was more to make a point and is definitely not the greatest source for such research.

Your sticky is definitely worth everyone's time here, and I also strongly encourage people to read it, perhaps more than once. ;-)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

I am so excited about the possibilities of the modular design of DSMC. First it must be realized, but the expansion will be endless. If RED opens the architecture years down the road, there can be some wonderful possibilities.

Jarred, Gibby.... Thanks again for the kind words. From two of the most respected people here on REDUser that means a lot.

Jarred Land

12-28-2008, 03:15 AM

if EFP shooters could have EFP modules and cine folks could have cine modules...

I will say it again.. i like the direction feedback has started to head.. this is exactly the kind of input we want to hear.

This might be worth someone starting a dedicated "my perfect module" thread that i will make a sticky.... everyone gets to draw out their perfect modules.

It is a really good time to throw out what you guys want to see come out of the gate...

Pawel Achtel

12-28-2008, 03:36 AM

I will say it again.. i like the direction feedback has started to head.. this is exactly the kind of input we want to hear.

This might be worth someone starting a dedicated "my perfect module" thread that i will make a sticky.... everyone gets to draw out their perfect modules.

It is a really good time to throw out what you guys want to see come out of the gate...

OK, Jarred, here it is:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=352184#post352184

I'd be interested to hear what others come up with.

Blair S. Paulsen

12-28-2008, 04:56 AM

While speciality modules are a fine concept I would be remiss if I did not point out that cine style vs EFP is more about approach, situation, accessories and typical camera support than i/o or power plugs. BTW - SD downconverters are the devil's spawn, and, fortunately, I am pretty sure Jim lacks interest in looking backwards.

I also feel compelled to point out that a stripped down rig can be just as critical for certain shots on the biggest productions as it is for run and gun or doco work.

I consider myself one of the convergence shooters that Gibby refers to and my biggest wish for the form factor options on the new rigs is ergonomics for hand held. What is the average amount of time it will take me to change lenses and re-balance the rig - that matters. Yes Virginia, I use primes for hand held work. I know most people assume hand held means a zoom but that's a choice, not a requirement.

While I'm at it I really like a bottom side solution that allows me to go from tripod to shoulder fast and easy - I bring that up because I believe that a more elegant solution that puts the shoulder cutout amidships would rock hard. I am not a big fan of the VCT-14 (its a Sony tripod interface plate that has attachment points both fore and aft of the shoulder pad if you are not familiar) but a better execution of the concept might be just the ticket.

tj williams

01-03-2009, 04:38 PM

Now that would be a module: 2 point light weight tight locking no play quick release from crane/Steadicam/hand held pad/dolly/sticks just think of all the extra bottom module pieces RED could sell.

I Bloom

01-04-2009, 04:29 PM

... I feel like calling up Red One and saying I've met someone.

But seriously... as much as I love my Red, I did a camera test this weekend for a feature with a couple cameras including my Red and a 416. My first time with the 416 and I have to say...

Dear Red Team,
If you haven't taken out one of these cameras loaded it up with film and put it on your shoulder, glanced at your light meter and shot something, then you don't really know what you are up against. It's a truly magical camera.

I know, I know, film is expensive, 4K is more rez than Super16, the epic will boot faster because it has ASICs etc. But I'm looking at the sexy Epic renders with all the modules and just thinking... don't forget that the core of what is needed is a camera one can forget about.

Much love and respect,
I.Bloom

Jannard

01-04-2009, 08:55 PM

The 416 is an incredible camera... no question about it.

Jim

Matt Uhry

01-04-2009, 10:33 PM

416 has spot on ergonomics in my book. Not that many of them have made it to Hollywood, rental houses are bracing for the digital invasion I guess. ( or still trying to pay off those stinky top-heavy flat bottomed SR3's )

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Brook Willard

01-04-2009, 11:24 PM

The 416 was love at first sight for me...

Jannard

01-05-2009, 12:52 AM

I know the 416 (S16) does 75fps but I don't know the price... anyone?

Jim

Fredrik Callinggard

01-05-2009, 01:03 AM

i know the 416 (s16) does 75fps but i don't know the price... Anyone?

Jim

lol :)

Sanjin Jukic

01-05-2009, 02:16 AM

http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/416/img/model-comparison.jpg
Arriflex 416 Plus HS 1-150 fps, weight 5.8 kg/12.8 lbs.

Price: approximately € 42.000 or about USD 60.000.

Liam Hall

01-05-2009, 08:58 AM

http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/416/img/model-comparison.jpg
Arriflex 416 Plus HS 1-150 fps, weight 5.8 kg/12.8 lbs.

Price: approximately € 42.000 or about USD 60.000.

I think Jim was being ironic:)

Sanjin Jukic

01-05-2009, 09:20 AM

I think Jim was being ironic:)

I know that but we should know that reality of wider accepting RED1 in

Hollywood productions at the moment is a bit ironic too :).

Give you three examples from the following films that also there could be

shot on RED1 but they were not for a certain reasons and now running for the major film awards.

Box Office of total gross this week, January 5, 2009:

1. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, US$79,011,000 shot on Viper/Thompson

2. Slumdog Millionaire, US$28,778,672 shot on SI-2K with IMS mount.

3. The Wrestler, US$1,756,112, shot on Arriflex 416, Zeiss Ultra Prime Lenses

LINK>>> (http://www.the-numbers.com/charts/thisweek.php)

David Mullen ASC

01-05-2009, 09:59 AM

Benjamin Rowland

01-05-2009, 11:12 AM

Just based off watching the trailer in 1080P, Super-16 was a great choice for "The Wrestler". I can't wait to see it when it has a wider release.

Red is a great alternative for many productions, and for most productions it could be the best choice. But Red isn't the best choice for EVERY movie out there.

That being said, I'm completely blown away by what Red has accomplished. Their camera(s) are a great alternative to film.

Sanjin Jukic

01-05-2009, 12:15 PM

I wouldn't put "The Wrestler" in that list - clearly the Super-16 format lends a specific gritty non-digital look to that movie, whereas if "Benjamin Button" or "Slumdog Millionaire" had been shot on RED ONE's instead, they probably wouldn't have ended up too different (though the mobility of the SI-2K created a lot of the energy of "Slumdog", plus a low profile in the location).

But pointing out three movies made by very independently-minded directors (Fincher, Boyle, Aronovsky) doesn't necessarily mean that now Hollywood is comfortable with shooting on digital unless it is a heavy greenscreen movie like "The Spirit".

In fact, the digitally-shot Adam Sandler comedies are probably better examples of the movement in Hollywood towards digital acquisition for mainstream projects that are not efx-heavy. In some ways, it's perhaps more revolutionary when a forgettable movie like "I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry" is shot digitally and no one notices and no one cares...

David,

probably you right about that but also you are in US, me in Europe and

I cannot observe all the thing closer and better than you anyway :) .

But if I go online I've got impression that professionals were not good

informed or they were missinformed about RED value in general or even maybe sometimes they are taking the sides...

Just to give you an example of the following and for my point of view a sort of "set up" interview:

"Darren Aronofsky (director of The Wrestler) Interviews Danny Boyle on The Tech of Slumdog":

http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/boylearonofskyinterview-440x239.jpg

Danny Boyle: "SI-2K...it gives you the same kind of resolution as a RED..." (LOL) :) .

Darren Aronofsky: "RED it's a big camera and your thing (he means SI-2K)...(he is showing with arms something smaller)" (LOL) :) .

Interview >>> (http://www.slashfilm.com/2008/12/18/exclusive-darren-aronofsky-interviews-danny-boyle-on-the-tech-of-slumdog/)

We should not be so "stupid" or "smart" to see that they are actually "playing" or they are the players in this interview

(in which game we don't know or even though we should know it).

Sanjin Jukic

01-05-2009, 02:06 PM

Whatever,

and as we know that RED now is trying to get "smat" design with a mobile (and upgradeable) brains too,

but I'm still waiting that they finally "certify" or "refuse" use of IMS that has got a

quite good reply in the last issue of American Cinematographer:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/2K_Mini_Slammdog1.jpg
Taken from the text "Rags to Riches" by Stephanie Argy,
American Cinematographer 12/2008, Page 52-53.

With a big hope that RED would finally get an idea of importance and usabilty of this extraordinary mount.

I Bloom

01-05-2009, 09:13 PM

60,000 is actually tempting. Unfortunately I don't think an owner operator could recoup the loss on 16mm in this day in age, better to buy a used XTRprod.

"RED it's a big camera and your thing (means SI-2K)...(he is showing with arms something smaller)"

I think the comments about the size of the Red that Aronofsky is making are probably because he's seen the camera all built up like it often is. It's like hot rod culture every guy has to have his stuff all tricked out all the time. Never mind you can stick a CF card in it, and put a battery plate on your belt and shoot with just a lense and a top handle maybe.

I guess the most interesting or important thing to me about the Epic is that essentially on a dual sound shoot you should just be able to shoot with the brain, a CF card and a battery. If that's really the case then it seems like a great camera. All the other modules are for when your phoning-it-in-on-a-greenscreen-commercial-with-a-video-village-full-of-starbucks-sipping-ex-sorrority-marketing-chics.... I'm sorry I think I just had a day-nightmare about my career...

Which leads me to something important that I've been thinking... Do I need the I/O module to jam sync the Epic brain to a sound recorder?

I.Bloom

Clayton Harper

01-06-2009, 06:32 AM

All the other modules are for when your phoning-it-in-on-a-greenscreen-commercial-with-a-video-village-full-of-starbucks-sipping-ex-sorrority-marketing-chics.

Bloom you better start finding that attractive if you wanna get ahead in shooting commercials.

Shades of Milk Girls? :innocent:

Clayton Harper

01-06-2009, 06:35 AM

Do I need the I/O module to jam sync the Epic brain to a sound recorder?

"My sources say yes" - Magic 8-Ball

KETCH ROSSi

01-06-2009, 11:19 AM

Instead of distancing oneself, (as in, "that's not my bag, baby") perhaps one should take the opportunity and embrace alternate types of shooting environments by doing research in those areas as well. It's a huge internet out there.

Here's a head start:
http://tinyurl.com/86mbb6

;-) Meant in good fun, with perhaps a point to be taken. (And intended for plenty of people other than yourself). Understanding other shooting environments can only help one become more well-rounded and professional. They also are used more and more within Cine style productions these days as Gibby alluded to.

As someone who also has worked on a few of these types of productions, I can understand where you are coming from. The atmosphere and etiquette is quite an interesting thing and varies from production to production. Often, there can be very high pressure situations, with very little time for explanation. Even so, I would say that the above comments you receive ("what are these bullshit RED plugs?", etc.) arise out of a combination a several factors, and not just that the RED ONE Camera has some unique, shall we say, design choices.

For instance:

1) Digital / Film: As we know, there are plenty of DPs, Operators, ACs, etc, that are resisting Digital at any chance they get. Whether this is job security, not wanting to learn new technology, or just having a passion for working with film, this can often times encourage people to zero in on something that isn't as big a deal as they would make it out to be. While slightly inconvenient, I'm sure some people have gone out of their way to make it seem like a bigger deal than it is.

2) Youth: Treating the new guy with a lack of respect or giving him/her a hard time just seems to be something that is part of the human condition. This can be amplified in this industry and especially on big budget sets. If you are young and in a highly technical position, sometimes this can make other people feel uneasy or threatened, even jealous. Keep in mind that as a DIT or Data Capture Technician (and a young one at that), you may be earning more money than many crew members on the set that have been in the business for many years. Most people realize this and may or may not be that thrilled with the idea. In my first few years, I experienced this, but now to a much lesser degree.

3) Personalities / Perspective: It would be good if all Film Schools had a mandatory Psychology program as well. On set, it gets much easier as you realize how and when to deal with people the more and more you do things. One thing that is good to keep in mind, is that it's just a movie (or other form of production). As crazy as the environments can get, at the end of the day, people go home to their families and continue their lives. You will find that no matter the situation, you get through it, the show goes on, and you come back another day to make the magic all over again. While you want to try your best every day, it's not always necessary to get too defensive when you are being questioned. A lot of times, I think people can see a new face and think it's a chance to test the person. If they get a reaction, then they may try and push your buttons more. If you realize this is nothing new, and shrug it off, you'll probably have an easier day. :-) Also, at the same time, having a respectful attitude and taking a modest approach can go a long way to not ruffling feathers.

4) Comfort Level: Your not always going to be able to please everyone or make everyone understand. It also may take a much longer time for others to come to the conclusions you have about the technology. I have some colleagues that are well respected throughout the industry that are slow adopters. For me and my situation, RED fits perfectly and I can use it and recommend it knowing it is the right tool for the job. I also am used to certain work-arounds or workflow conditions. I accept them. Someone else may not consider that within their comfort zone (yet) and may resist the technology until it is. I know several people that have changed their minds after certain features were enabled or workflow options were released.

I'm happy to see these discussions taking place and think for the most part they are very constructive. RED certainly would not be what it is today without the community that surrounds it and continues to grow. Thank you to everyone who continues to contribute to these thoughtful discussions. Let's keep them going and try to consider many points of view while doing so.

Great Post Casey, and even so I haven't been on set as a assigned position as much of many of you have, I in did been in sets likely more then some of you, simply because I loved the Art from as far as I can remember, and starting in CineCitta' (Italy) to Hollywood, it is all the same, the atmosphere on set can same times be frustrating to be in, especially when dealing with stuck up Professional which arrogance far supersedes their knowledge and talent.

Yeah, I know that some times I can be a pain myself, but I have truly learned that Technology stubborn Directors and other PROs on set, do try sometimes to put down Digital and make it as difficult to work with as they can, for both luck of interest in learning new Technology and for simply been to used to Film.

Now on the other end I can say the same for many that have gone used to Digital and absolutely make life miserable on sets were Film cameras are used.

Adaptation is always the key for me, I switch from Film to Digital first in Photography with tone of stuff to learn,especially on the Post front, and now doing so with Cinematography, but I adapt, and foremost important I respect the arts and the people in them, this is a Fantastic Industry that we are in, but nonetheless is a hard one, and very competitive and judgmental to the work of others and the equipment used in each set.

Especially the equipment part, it happens all the time, in truth people should really start concentrating more on what they are doing and how they are doing it, instead of what they are doing it with, and this also goes for Accessories, not just Film vs. RED, but what accessories one chooses for its RED camera seems to make him suddenly more or less based on what MB or FF ETC He/She has on the RED, this to me is absolutely BS!!

so Any ways Casey, just wanted to say: GREAT POST!!

ciao

http://ketchrossi.smugmug.com/photos/447248186_kVCaW-X3.png
click Banner to visit Official Site (http://www.perseverancemovie.com/)

I Bloom

01-06-2009, 12:55 PM

"My sources say yes" - Magic 8-Ball

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1227070191.jpg

You have to be wrong Clayton. That means that this bird can't fly without syncing off a clap??

IBloom

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-07-2009, 12:26 AM

As the specs are currently described I think Clayton is right. There's no clapper mic built into the brain is there..?

CJ Roy

01-07-2009, 01:15 AM

The cinema module sounds like a great idea. I'd be really interested in that.

Here's some of my configurations I've dug up. Can't seem to find the ones that resemble Brook's originals, but more often than not, my camera ends up looking close to it. Depends on the shoot.

Anything we can do to help the mess of the add ons, I'd love.

Thanks.

-CJ

Clayton Harper

01-07-2009, 05:58 AM

You have to be wrong Clayton. That means that this bird can't fly without syncing off a clap??

IBloom

In the new EFP world we're not allowed to use timecode slates. :biggrin:

Seriously though, I doubt there's a timecode port hiding under that lip and thus we get back to the same problem again: some of these designs and configurations fall apart when you think about what you need to use them in a cinema production environment.

The funniest part of this to me is being told that cinema-style is a small part of the audience and then looking at the marketing of the product which touts all these large scale cinema productions.

I realize I need to end my cry baby session with some constructive criticism.

I would love to see the modules start to be usage specific in their design. Instead of a bunch of legos, I would really like to see a stripped down run and gun module, a middle ground EFP/ENG module (with audio pots/meters), and a big-boy studio box for when size and weight aren't such a big deal.

In reality, the different styles of shooting haven't changed much since the lightweight cameras of the 60s/70s came into play freeing filmmakers from the giant studio camera set-ups. The only fundamental change was integrated sound in the camera with video. Everything else is just shades of image quality. (Mullen, please feel free to school me hard here)

I think they discussion should change from ENG vs. Cinema vs. whatever to something along the lines of "How much crap are you carrying around". I vote for Small, Medium, and Large modules. :biggrin:

I love you all, thanks for reading.

I Bloom

01-07-2009, 11:26 AM

Brook Willard

01-07-2009, 12:22 PM

It'd also be nice if there was a way to cable modules together over a longer distance... a few feet. It'd let us treat the body like an optical block for specialty shots without losing the functionality of the additional modules.

Stephen Strangways

01-07-2009, 12:43 PM

As I see it, connectors sticking out of a camera body at 90 degree right angles are a terrible design decision.

When I shot film, it was with an Aaton XTR or Arri 16SR3. Those have video connectors on the side of the body that face straight back or at a 45 degree angle (or less), so cables run along side the body. Perfect. The 416 pictures posted a little back in this thread also shows that.

This design makes it less likely to snag a cable or connector, they follow the shape of the body rather than poking out of it. Empty connectors coming out at 90 degree angles might look cleaner and smoother, but as soon as you add cables, it's much less elegant.

I work a lot with the HVX200 now, and find things like the headphone connector sticking out the side at a 90 degree angle to be a huge pain. I have all sorts of right-angle adapters to solve problems. Why? Well, I often end up with a Y-splitter in the headphone jack, with one side of that getting a L-R mono separator, then one or both sides of that getting jacks into transmitters. It would extend several inches from the body, and be a real danger of getting broken off.

Panasonic's newer HPX170 moves almost all of those side connectors to the very back, and facing out the back so everything lines up perfectly with the body. The breakout boxes I've seen for the RED all do the same thing... obviously, people are buying them because they want standard BNC connectors, and they want them aligned with the camera body!

Please RED, reconsider the I/O module design, or at least make another one with angled or straight back connectors. Otherwise, a lot of people will be looking to another company to provide them with yet another breakout box.

Hans von Sonntag

01-07-2009, 01:34 PM

I went through this thread and saw this picture again. While this is a nice looking render I don't want my next Red camera to be set up for hand-held work in this way. Why? This configuration is super front heavy. I really thought that Red knows that designs like the Arri 235 are the benchmark - ergonomically. At least I got the impression that Jim Jannard sees it like this. Hopefully, Red publishes such a configuration just for fun. The RedOne is in many ways a great camera - but it's bulky and heavy. My formost wish for the next generation of Red cameras: Make it the most ergonomical camera on the planet. Please.

Hans

David Mullen ASC

01-07-2009, 07:47 PM

If you're used to handholding a 35mm movie camera, the RED ONE seems pretty small & light...

It's a basic, almost unsolvable, design problem: cine lenses are bigger than ever, and as cameras get smaller and smaller, they get front heavy because you've basically reduced the system to a lens attached to a sensor & processor, and the data recorder & battery past those modules aren't going to compensate enough to throw the weight much to the rear.

We're in that awkward size phase that some of the bigger prosumer cameras suffer from, in that they aren't small or light enough to be handycams held by the wrist, and they aren't big enough to sit on the shoulder naturally. So you find artificial ways of throwing recorders, batteries, accessories and whatnot off of the back to counteract the weight in front, so it becomes a shoulder-mount camera.

Mark Pugh

01-07-2009, 08:05 PM

Jannard

01-07-2009, 08:48 PM

What you don't see from this render is that the back portion can be slid (on rails) as far back as you want/need for balance. You also need to understand that the heaviest thing up front is the lens. I have held this particular rig on my shoulder with a RED prime lens and it balances perfectly (with battery and drive moved back slightly). Maybe you should withhold judgment until you actually try it? Just a thought.

Jim

Jared Caldwell

01-07-2009, 08:57 PM

Maybe you should withhold judgment until you actually try it? Just a thought.

Jim

LOL! You mean I can't judge the balance of the camera by looking at renders? :blink:

What has the world come to? :D

CJ Roy

01-07-2009, 09:28 PM

I have held this particular rig on my shoulder with a RED prime lens and it balances perfectly (with battery and drive moved back slightly).

It seems the older batteries & drives would have to be back even further once you add in a mattebox, follow focus, filters, etc. And of course, depending on which kind of lens is mounted.

In the current specs, is there a way the modules can be separated, to spread the weight over the shoulder?

Thanks.

-CJ

I Bloom

01-07-2009, 09:58 PM

It seems the older batteries & drives would have to be back even further once you add in a mattebox, follow focus, filters, etc. And of course, depending on which kind of lens is mounted.

In the current specs, is there a way the modules can be separated, to spread the weight over the shoulder?

Thanks.

-CJ

Mark Pederson proposed a "snake" which I'd imagine to be a longer protected ribbon cable that would connect two modules. Kind of like this guy but stronger:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1231394107.jpg I don't think it's actually needed for handheld though. The setup I linked to looks like it will be great and very compact just two batteries on the back maybe.

IBloom

ericyoung

01-08-2009, 10:25 AM

Custom modules might work. Mark's snake idea is also a big part of the puzzle.

My idea is custom slots on general modules. So instead of velcroing and AJA downconverter to your camera on a steadi rig, you pull the HD-SDI port and pop in the SD port, just like an Express-card slot. Essentially adding a second dimension to the modularity of the system.

Put a slot on the brain for timecode. :shifty:

There's pros and cons to this approach - the overall form factor of the camera becomes more fixed, but probably has to be large to accommodate all the potential add-in modules. But it would involve less disassembly to reconfigure differently.

Todd M.

01-08-2009, 01:46 PM

CJ Roy

01-08-2009, 02:08 PM

What's interesting about that, and Mark's snake cable approach, is that there could be a third party body design that allowed you to put the various modules where you saw fit. Kind of like a skeleton that would let you put the organs where you needed them. Could be one rigid, aluminum body that ran the snake internally.

I have no idea how feasible something like that would be, or if Red would allow it, but it could be designed to be shaped like more comfortable film cameras.

Just thinking out loud here.

-CJ

EDIT: Just finally saw Mark's snake thread. There's a similar idea in there. Sorry Mark, didn't mean to rip your idea off.

P Andersson

01-09-2009, 09:19 AM

RED Snake - good idea - but it would have to be a different name i think - too weird associations

Jared Caldwell

01-09-2009, 09:29 AM

RED Snake - good idea - but it would have to be a different name i think - too weird associations

That is funny! I can't wait to see these "hidden bombs" that have been referenced in the past. I am sure connectivity is one of them.

Douglas Underdahl

01-09-2009, 05:50 PM

Why not call it a tether? That's what I called it about two weeks before Mark posted his version of it:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22034&highlight=tether

Of course, I bet RED thought of it before me.

Gustavo Penna

06-02-2009, 09:52 PM

The Best and only way to connect all professional accessories to a red one:
Is with the Lentequip's splitter Box.

Cinetape.
Preston.
Bartech.
Moduluz.
Canatrans.
Transvideo HD.
Ajja.
Litepanels.

I own all of the Above and i use them on my Arri 435.

Now with Professional power outputs on my RED i have one less headache.

Ptap is not an option. its Designed for little lights on top of betacams. 80's technology.

tj williams

06-11-2009, 09:27 AM

That is nice Gustavo, I'm def gonna get one. However it is larger than needs to be and adds a bit of length to the camera. Strange thing here for me re Gibbys posts is that I shoot a lot of smaller productions what I guess he calls EFPsomthing... and I have radio receiver(s) on the body cause I dont want a cord to the audio guy for fast moving and I have my AJA and Modulus on the body cause I don't want a video cable to the director or client. I put my light weight follow focus on the gears on my still camera short zoom and soon my Birger wheel cause it is easier to reach than the lens barrell. Usually there are just the three of us. So just to get a low budget rig in a wireless way I have a buncha stuff velcroed on.

I think the brain module needs 2 things:

1. high amp power output on the BRAIN so we can power from brain only like the shoulder render which has been on this thread. Also this will allow after market folk like lentequip to install a breakout connector box onto the brain module. This means there need to be a couple of 1/4 20 holes near the power out. The light shoulder mount shown is very cool but will have to power a bunch of add on stuff in the real world. So I suggest that if RED develops several power break out boxes they attach to the side or top of the BRAIN and not behind where the recorder batt modules go.

2. On the Brain module, we need flat surfaces and several 1/4 20 holes to attach brackets and widgets to tie on these things. Even to velcro onto the Brain, velcro needs a bit of flat area without nearby protrusions.

Again I'd like to emphasize to RED Epic designers that drawing the camera without add on accessories and cabling is very elegant but is like designing car seats without the seat belt buckles which then pinch the operator. or ride down on the operators shoulder etc. I strongly feel it is important to design the camera for actual use and not to look like an elegant render. Hey guys post just one with a bunch of the stuff on brackets to hold it and cables in guides and cleverly run tight to the body. Betabunch the folk on the site will be very appreciative!!!!!